S08.E05: The Bells

[Law Mom]

I was just rewatching the scene where Dany obtained the Unsullied, back in Season 3. At the time it all seemed very heroic, but really she lied and cheated her way through that whole transaction. She traded Drogon for the army, and then even though she did not own Drogon anymore she ordered him to Dracarys Kras. That's like paying with a bad check. Then she took Drogon back, when he should have gone to Kras's heirs. Even pretending to not speak Valyrian was a deception, although a smart one. We cheered because the person Dany murdered was a bad guy, like the absolute worst. We were distracted from seeing this as a moral conundrum, as we should have at the time.

Also in that scene, Dany failed to tell her advisers about her plan so when she offered up a dragon they tried to talk her out of it. In exchange for their efforts to protect her from this terrible idea, she, of course, threatened to fire them for contradicting her in public, in that Journey-to-Madness tone of voice she liked to use.

[Lady Iris]

I thought Qyburn got a more quick and merciful death than he deserved.

I did enjoy Cersei scampering away from Cleganebowl. It was most unqueenly.

How was Arya the only person to stand up and walk away from that hellfire? If her experience doesn't come to bear in the final ep I shall be disappointed.

I am sad the show's coming to an end. Regardless of the directions its taken over the past several years and in particular this final season, I will miss it.

[Law Mom]

This is what happens when I watch random scenes, lol. So in Dany's vision, where she is before the Iron Throne in the the ruins of the Red Keep in what we thought was snow but now know is ash, there is a symbol of the Seven hanging by the throne when this was changed to the Lannister Lion after Cersei took the throne. Oops!

[Gummo]

Okay.

It's been 3 days.

Two viewings of the episode. One viewing of the official supplements on YouTube.

Lots of reading on the internet.

Took me this long to decide:

I loved this episode. Nothing was as I wanted it, but that's GoT, isn't it.

[Last Time Lord]

The more I think about it, the more I like Cersei’s end. 

Her whole world literally crashed down on top of her

[VCRTracking]

[MrsR]

Lena is not eligible for an Emmy unless they dig her out and display her body. 4 show minimum.

10 hours ago, Umbelina said:

The showrunners needed to give Lena a blockbuster episode or she wouldn't have been eligible for emmys. 

Edited May 14, 2019 by MrsR

[Law Mom]

Who will end Daenerys’s reign of terror?

1.      Arya because it’s in her assassin job description.

2.      Jon because it’s in his executioner job description.

3.      Tyrion because he has a pretty good sense of self preservation.

4.      Brienne because she’s protecting Sansa.

5.      Sam because she threatens him.

6.      Sansa because it’s her turn.

7.      Drogon because he is sick and tired of killing innocent people.

8.      Martha because no one told her to stop (inspiration: Tesla).

9.      Random Westerosi because they are real people.

10.   Gray Worm because all bets are off now.

11.   No one. She will live and sit on the throne.

12.   No one. She will live, but in exile.

Feel free to add!

[JennyMominFL]

4 minutes ago, MrsR said:

Lena is not eligible for an Emmy unless they dig her out and display her body. 4 show minimum.

I could go for a gratuitous shot of her broken body, eyes  bulging in the rubble

[UNOSEZ]

20 minutes ago, Law Mom said:

I was just rewatching the scene where Dany obtained the Unsullied, back in Season 3. At the time it all seemed very heroic, but really she lied and cheated her way through that whole transaction. She traded Drogon for the army, and then even though she did not own Drogon anymore she ordered him to Dracarys Kras. That's like paying with a bad check. Then she took Drogon back, when he should have gone to Kras's heirs. Even pretending to not speak Valyrian was a deception, although a smart one. We cheered because the person Dany murdered was a bad guy, like the absolute worst. We were distracted from seeing this as a moral conundrum, as we should have at the time.

Also in that scene, Dany failed to tell her advisers about her plan so when she offered up a dragon they tried to talk her out of it. In exchange for their efforts to protect her from this terrible idea, she, of course, threatened to fire them for contradicting her in public, in that Journey-to-Madness tone of voice she liked to use.

"But but but.. We needed more scenes so we could prepare ourselves and not fall in love with the villain.. Instead they made us overlook it all with their bad writing and now we don't have a more reasonable excuse for why the lady who constantly promised fire and blood rained down fire and blood... Damn you D&D".... 

Smh 

[ulkis]

If Jon started talking about his feelings about his parentage in more detail it would probably be just to wonder if all the incest caused him to be sooooo short.

Edited May 14, 2019 by ulkis

[VCRTracking]

[Raachel2008]

48 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

If her experience doesn't come to bear in the final ep I shall be disappointed.

I think this will make her abandon her assassin ways and the "violence".

[Drogo]

2 hours ago, enoughcats said:

I might have missed a discussion of this earlier in this thread, but I've been waiting for the two dragons to acknowledge Tyrion as their saviour.  Surely a dragon never forgets.

Might be waiting a while.  Those two are in dragon heaven.

[Calamity Jane]

1. On 5/12/2019 at 10:37 PM, RealReality said:

   1.  

Ignore above. I still haven’t figured out how to delete something I’ve started. 

I just realized that Jon had to pull back his army to save them, not from the enemy, but from Daenerys, their own leader. As my husband would have said, “Uff da!”  That is just not good. 

[Potanical Pardon]

9 hours ago, spaceghostess said:

Hmm. Not only did I take English 101, I graduated with a degree in it and went on to a career in publishing. Reading other people's novels (across all genres) has been part of my job for the last 20 years, and hey! I didn't see this coming. Because D&D's story and character building didn't support it.

Also, as someone who was married to a malignant narcissist for 16 years and spent two years divorcing him, I had to learn plenty about what makes them tick in order to recover from his abuse and to protect my children from being well and truly fucked up by him (this is a work in progress). Based on this research, as well as personal (not professional!) experience, I have to disagree with your assessment. It's easy enough to cherry-pick terms from the DSM that match up with Dany at her worst, but there are other key behaviors we haven't seen her display but that all narcissists exhibit:

1. Lying. All narcs lie, whether to prop up their egos, cover their asses, or just for kicks (because they get off on the power of knowing they're putting one over on somebody). Dany's been called many things, but "liar" isn't one of them.

2. Cruelty, especially via manipulation, to reliable/primary sources of supply. This happens when (a) a normally compliant source presents unexpected resistance, and/or (b) the narc is getting bored with the supply source. If Dany were a narcissist, she'd deal out spontaneous and casual cruelty to even her closest and most reliable sources of supply just because she can. She'd play her advisors against one another to see how far they'd go to curry her favor. Or you'd see her being a bitch to Missandei, for example, for no discernible reason. Narcissists can be extremely charming and warm, but the mask comes down eventually. 

3. Unmitigated selfishness. As you pointed out, a narcissist is only "generous" when gathering supply or tap dancing to keep it. Victims of narcissistic abuse will tell you how,  in the "honeymoon phase," the narc was such a great listener, so interested in everything they had to say. This ends once the supply source has been secured, therefore Dany, having secured Missandei, wouldn't have been particularly interested in her "friend"'s growing feelings for Grey Worm, for instance. Their intimate conversation about that was a genuine moment of friendship. Dany listened to and cared about what Missandei had to say. Narcs don't engage in these types of exchanges unless there's something in it for them or they fear losing supply. What a supply source thinks are deep, meaningful "conversations" are, upon closer examination, actually long stretches of the narc talking about him/herself.

Oh--and no way would a narcissist risk him/herself and/or his/her powerful toys (because children--dragon or otherwise--are nothing but toys for a narc) to save OTHER people. Sure, you could say Dany's actions at the Battle of Winterfell were the ultimate supply harvest, but I'd say not, because the risk to her person in order to gain that potential supply was way too high.

So no, I don't believe Dany is a narcissist. But your post got me thinking about how D&D could have made her one. Just a few scenes per season of her exhibiting truly narcissistic behaviors would have helped lay compelling groundwork to support what the last two episodes would now have us believe.

Dang. I think I might be a narcissist.

[sistermagpie]

On 5/13/2019 at 12:19 AM, Chris24601 said:

This didn't come from nowhere. If it had I wouldn't have been able to discuss the whole Shadow King aspect for weeks now and call up numerous references across the seasons hinting to this.

And I've skirted around it in previous threads because calling it by its name would have instantly put people off, but as I mentioned previously, there are two types of Shadow King; Jon has been one type; the Impotent King (but in seeing the slaughter is going to be moved to take up the role of True King because while he doesn't WANT to be king, he sees now that he NEEDS to be in order to protect people from things like this happening), but I'd only ever called Dany by the generic Shadow King title, not name for the specific manifestation...

The Tyrant. Dany has always been the Tyrant. She's fought it for years, but its always been where her story was headed.

I keep thinking about this wrt to the idea of them being marriage. Like even other characters saw that a balance between the two would be ideal, and I believe that's the idea of the Shadow, right? You're not supposed to destroy it but acknowledge and work with it within yourself.

So at first it was logical that maybe Jon and Dany together would be positive, but instead when together they simply pushed each other into their previous bad patterns. Dany inspired Jon to push power away even more, dropping to his knees and announcing that she's the queen. His people are annoyed by it, but he just says she's the queen. When Sansa speaks up in the meeting about the soldiers he doesn't give his own opinion about the soldiers' readiness, nor does he act as a mediator. He just again more stridently than ever say that Dany's queen and must not be questioned. He's just denying any responsibility to give it all to Dany, making his own advisors nervous. Yet Dany still always needs more reassurance--in this ep he tells her she's his queen, that he loves her, but that's not enough. Jon doesn't balance at all once she sees he's a king in ways she isn't. 

Along with trying to push all the responsibility/power to Dany Jon's not taking responsibility for the power he actually does have as king. So that power takes on a life of his own. Jon says he doesn't want the crown, but that just leaves his crown open to others like Sansa or Varys. It's not just that Jon tells his sisters against Dany's wishes, he's also just not dealing with the reality of his being who he is. That information (Varys is completely right to call it that rather than a secret) was going to come out one way or another. It was going to continue to exist in the minds of Dany and Sam and Bran at least--and soon there would totally be more. It was never going to disappear.

Jon tries to have it both way where he's Aegon at home with is family and girlfriend and Jon Snow in public, but that's not dealing with the reality any more than Dany trying for get him just not tell anyone. Ultimately the way they will balance each other isn't through marriage but by Dany's excesses in the face of Jon's abdication of power will force him to seize the power he's refused. That's always the thing that gets him to seize power is a fear for the people.

10 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

According to this article, in 2018 in the United States, 560 babies were named Khaleesi and 163 were named Daenerys. This says that in total, there are 2,528 babies in total who have been named Khaleesi so far (my favorite part of this little story is that her Khaleesi's sister is named Elphaba).

Gotta say, even if she hadn't done this in the last ep, it seems odd to name a kid Khaleesi or Daenerys and feel like that's different now. People are describing her as embodying feminist "empowerment" and yeah, that's the point. She's about power. She just exhibited power. Sure in early seasons she was freeing slaves, but the real story was about her being raised up as a savior--she quickly gained power far beyond just escaping from the oppression where she started out. It was quickly clear that it was she and not her brother who could put his dreams of glory into action.

[GiuliettaMasina]

It's not that Dany fans "missed" moments, it's that we interpreted them differently. And, if we were supposed to interpret the ruthlessness with which Dany treated her enemies as foreshadowing of her treatment of innocents who had done nothing to her, then Sansa (dogs), Arya (pies), and Tyrion (toilet) better get portrayed as monsters next episode, or I'm not buying it.

[spaceghostess]

9 minutes ago, Potanical Pardon said:

Dang. I think I might be a narcissist.

Heh, you just proved you're not one.😀

Edited May 14, 2019 by spaceghostess

[CletusMusashi]

I just rewatched Cleganebowl, just to make sure I actually had seen what I thought I saw. Yup. I did. FrankenMountain starts the fight wearing full plate armor, and by the end of it he is completely shirtless. What is he, a Chippendale? Did Cersei have him equipped with special tear-away armor so he could dance for her? Or was that just Qyburn's thing? No wonder the big lug finally turned on him.

Edited May 14, 2019 by CletusMusashi

[Soup333]

48 minutes ago, GiuliettaMasina said:

It's not that Dany fans "missed" moments, it's that we interpreted them differently. And, if we were supposed to interpret the ruthlessness with which Dany treated her enemies as foreshadowing of her treatment of innocents who had done nothing to her, then Sansa (dogs), Arya (pies), and Tyrion (toilet) better get portrayed as monsters next episode, or I'm not buying it.

I won’t buy it anyway. Saying we missed shit that was never acknowledged until now is reconning what happened. 

[MadameKillerB]

Did anyone laugh out loud at Qyburn being just shoved? And then Cersei slinking by? That cracked my shit up.

[rollacoaster]

5 hours ago, Dame sans merci said:

But it was definitely underwhelming. Given how they've built Cersei up over the seasons to an insane degree, to have her go out with such a whimper was deeply puzzling. 

It really was puzzling. In my imagining, I see Cersei having a backup plan to save her life and that of her unborn child. Once she saw the tide turn against her, she would immediately have left that balcony and proceeded into a secret passage underground that lead to somewhere safer. She could still encounter Jaime in the same place, they could still be trapped and die together, but, at least, Cersei would have died asserting some self-preservatory agency. Have them see each other, but not be able to get to each other due to rubble, and she has to watch him crushed under falling rubble. Then, she could die alone, weeping, as the building collapsed around her. 

[Affogato]

10 minutes ago, rollacoaster said:

It really was puzzling. In my imagining, I see Cersei having a backup plan to save her life and that of her unborn child. Once she saw the tide turn against her, she would immediately have left that balcony and proceeded into a secret passage underground that lead to somewhere safer. She could still encounter Jaime in the same place, they could still be trapped and die together, but, at least, Cersei would have died asserting some self-preservatory agency. Have them see each other, but not be able to get to each other due to rubble, and she has to watch him crushed under falling rubble. Then, she could die alone, weeping, as the building collapsed around her. 

She thought Euron would save her. For close work the Mountain.

When Jaime showed up she honed in on him again.

Before that Tywin.

Cersei was always a delicate woman in most ways, to name a trope, and her neediness was certainly (imho) what kept Jaime with her. 

[paigow]

Why Cersei did not have Plan B:  "She is not half as smart as she thinks she is"

*********************

[Interior: Iron Bank Conference Room - Emergency Staff Meeting]

CEO: [Angry Bellowing] Which of you fucking idiots bet against Team Dragon????? Who is not getting his annual bonus????

[CletusMusashi]

I expected Cersei to have the location of her final stand rigged up with wildfire, not only to keep anyone but her from taking the throne, but also because she'd rather kill herself than give anyone else the satisfaction. And of course with Danaerys blasting through the gates with fire, it could be hard to figure out which aspects of King's Landing burning down were whose fault, so it would serve well to feed the upcoming conflicts.

Far more so than Danaerys saying: "Yeah, um, it's not that I don' care about the random peasants. It's that I actually care so much about actively targeting and killing them after the surrender that for a while now I'm gonna just go do that. 'Cause that is a way bigger priority to me right now than burning the actual people who I just watched murder my best friend right in front of me..."

[Umbelina]

7 hours ago, mothmonsterman said:

When i saw the white horse at the end I assumed it was a gift/aid from the god of light. The god of light kept bringing Beric back to save Arya during the great war. I think the god of light has one more thing for Arya to do. 

It should have been her giant wolf.

I'm not completely discounting the idea that Bran sent the horse, because Arya still has a part to play though.  Mostly discounted though.  Confused animals in war do exist, and we saw a bunch of Dothraki's riding white horses earlier.

4 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

There are probably scattered atrocities in most wars.  But, I think it is rare for innocent people to be deliberately targeted, especially at the scale that Dany did it.  

It's not rare at all.

It's a myth that it's rare.  "Good guys" do it too, history is written by the winners, not the losers. 

We aren't supposed to talk about politics here, or I would expand on this.

4 hours ago, AuntieMame said:

Non-combatants have always had the highest casualty figures during war. Always. Especially if you are unlucky enough that the war is held in your ground. The estimates for dead during WWII range from sixty to a hundred million depending on the source and historian. The vast majority of these deaths are civilian. Now you can quibble that dying of starvation during say the Siege of Leningrad isn't directly a death by combat, but it is a death by war and because of military decisions taken at the top. War always has and always will kill more civilians than anyone else. One of the few things I liked about the Bells is that we did get some sense of just how awful it is, but the reasons for showing the horror are all in narrative service to justifying war. 

Exactly.

2 hours ago, MrsR said:

Lena is not eligible for an Emmy unless they dig her out and display her body. 4 show minimum.

Not even as guest star or supporting?  Interesting.  They could always give her a flashback in the next episode.

groan

[seacliffsal]

On 5/13/2019 at 6:57 AM, Affogato said:

It was a toy. It reminded me of Shireen’s toy. 

I immediately thought of Shireen and wondered if it symbolized that the fact that she burned children to death meant that Dany will never rule just as the burning of Shireen meant that Stannis would never rule.  Stannis was abandoned by over half (?) of his soldiers after he had Shireen burned to death and it seems that Jon and others will now abandon Dany.  

[Hana Chan]

1 hour ago, GiuliettaMasina said:

It's not that Dany fans "missed" moments, it's that we interpreted them differently. And, if we were supposed to interpret the ruthlessness with which Dany treated her enemies as foreshadowing of her treatment of innocents who had done nothing to her, then Sansa (dogs), Arya (pies), and Tyrion (toilet) better get portrayed as monsters next episode, or I'm not buying it.

The problem is that none of these other characters are walking around with massive messiah complexes and demanding to be acknowledged as ruler of a country that they spent the majority of their lives outside of. Sansa is very content in the North and would be more than happy to have the North left to its own devices. Arya has gone after those who've caused direct harm to her family, but isn't slaughtering innocents along the way. Tyrion killed the parent that abused him all his life, tried to have him killed, had his first wife gang raped and murdered and turned Shea against him. 

And having a dragon at her disposal, not to mention two armies not exactly know for their gentleness (especially the Dothraki), she had the wherewithal to do tremendous damage if she gave in to her worst impulses. Which she did. Would a few more episodes of watching Dany slip increasingly into paranoia and lashing out at those who had supported her made this turn more believable? I don't think so. I've seen plenty of cases where characters have done things that their fans disliked and no matter how well-supported the story-lines were, I'd hear the cries of "character assassination". I get that a lot of people were deeply invested in Dany's story, but that doesn't change the fact that looking at her past behavior, destroying King's Landing isn't that much of a stretch.

This is the same girl who'd promised her Dorthraki followers that they would burn cities and conquer under her leadership, so I do think that many who didn't see this turn coming were, at least, compartmentalizing her actions so that they could remain supporters of her quest. It's easy to ignore atrocities if those she's attacked weren't sympathetic, but it was pretty obvious that there was going to be a point where she would run out of unsympathetic targets. 

Who is she going after next? My bets will be Sansa and the North for defying her and seeking (in her mind) to undermine her claim. She's going to end up giving Jon and the others no choice but to stop her.

[paigow]

6 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Good call.

That little brat deserved it.

If we are spreading blame like mustard.....

Little Lady Mormont: Backing Jon when he needed it the most....if only she had kept quiet / killed Sansa.....

[TaurusRose]

14 hours ago, Soup333 said:

I’m honestly baffled at all the people loving this and defending it. 

Why? There are other points of view, just as valid. The episode may have had its issues but many of us did not think it was total trash. I’ve seen total trash and IMO, this definitely was not it. 

[proserpina65]

22 hours ago, Couver said:

Randall did it purely to get Highgarden in the bargain

That might have been part of his motivation, but an invading force of Dothraki and Unsullied from outside of Westeros was the main motivation.

21 hours ago, millennium said:

unless of course we consider some of these were the same assholes slinging shit at Cersei as she walked naked from the Sept of Baelor to the Red Keep.  Which still doesn't make me feel sorry for them.

That would actually make me care more FOR them.  Cersei deserved every moment of that walk.

[Absurda]

I do wonder if Dany would have had trouble controlling the Dothraki if they didn't get to have some raping, pillaging and murdering.  I don't think a peaceful surrender would have satisfied them.

Someone up thread asked why Grey Worm isn't being called out for his actions (attacking a surrendered enemy) as much as Dany.  My guess is it's one or more of the following:

1.  As a subordinate of Dany's he's seen to have less agency than she does.  The old "I was only following orders" thing.  He didn't start until he saw her attack again

2.  He's had no hint of crazy in his backstory.  Part of the debate around Dany is whether or not she did this out of madness

3.  He's not the one who wants to rule these people so he has no reason to care about them like Dany should. 

Any other theories? 

As for who Dany will go after next, who knows?  Could be Jon.  Doing away with any rival claimants to the throne is solid policy.  There's a rich history of it in the show and in the real world.  Robert Baratheon the great hero did it to her family and tried to do it to her.  Joffery did it to Robert's bastards.  Being all the way up North could make Sansa less of a priority, though I can see her in trouble if she doesn't keep her head down.    Tyrion for sure once Dany finds out he freed Jamie.  There's no reason for her not to hear of it, unless the showrunners decide to drop that thread and not deal with it.

[Umbelina]

Dany would have to eliminate Jon at the very least, and probably all who know about Jon's true claim to the throne.

[proserpina65]

2 hours ago, GiuliettaMasina said:

It's not that Dany fans "missed" moments, it's that we interpreted them differently. And, if we were supposed to interpret the ruthlessness with which Dany treated her enemies as foreshadowing of her treatment of innocents who had done nothing to her, then Sansa (dogs), Arya (pies), and Tyrion (toilet) better get portrayed as monsters next episode, or I'm not buying it.

Except Dany has previously threatened to burn cities to the ground with absolutely no regard for the people in those cities (Qarth, Astapor, Yunkai).  We may have only seen her act against her enemies, but it's only because people talked her out of destroying cities before.

1 hour ago, Soup333 said:

I won’t buy it anyway. Saying we missed shit that was never acknowledged until now is reconning what happened. 

Except it was acknowledged.  It was specifically mentioned in those episodes in Season 2 and Season 6.

[Raachel2008]

9 minutes ago, Absurda said:

Someone up thread asked why Grey Worm isn't being called out for his actions (attacking a surrendered enemy) as much as Dany.

Because he was following Dany. It you rewatch the episode, they stop when the bells ring, then he looks up, see that Dany stopped, then when she starts burning everything again he attacks the Lannisters.  It's the whole "he is a soldier excuse", which for me only work so far. Jon and Davos stopped, didn't they?

But as many things in this episode, we could have seen some Unsullied backing down, just like we saw some Northners keeping up with the violence.

I really want to know what happens to the Dothraki, the Unsullied, the Northners and the remaining Lannisters in the next episode. If someone kills Dany, does her Army just leave Westeros? How do the cross the sea? What about the Lannisters? Does Jon kill the Northners who didn't respect the bells?

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

I really want to know what happens to the Dothraki, the Unsullied, the Northners and the remaining Lannisters in the next episode. If someone kills Dany, does her Army just leave Westeros? How do the cross the sea? What about the Lannisters? Does Jon kill the Northners who didn't respect the bells?

I don't think he'd punish the Northerners for continuing the attack when Dany told them to attack. This is the guy who was shouting about not following Dany's orders before they left. He's got no business punishing soldiers for not doing what he wanted when he wasn't leading them.

I wouldn't be sure these showrunners would have real plans for what would happen to all these people. That's more of a GRRM thing...

[arty]

1 hour ago, GiuliettaMasina said:

And, if we were supposed to interpret the ruthlessness with which Dany treated her enemies as foreshadowing of her treatment of innocents who had done nothing to her, then Sansa (dogs), Arya (pies), and Tyrion (toilet) better get portrayed as monsters next episode, or I'm not buying it.

I said this in Dany's Character thread a few days ago, but I figure I'll post here as well. In the Inside the Episode segment for the episode in which Dany buys & frees the Unsullied, showrunner Dan Weiss describes her actions towards the despicable Master Kraznys "who had done nothing to her personally" as cruel.

From his point of view & therefore the show's point of view, Dany's actions are in contrast to those that you cited of Sansa, Arya and Tyrion. In those three instances I suspect the show would argue that the people Sansa, Arya and Tyrion killed were those who had directly harmed them. So I doubt they'll get the Monster edit next episode.

Also, I don't think that the episode or the showrunners portrayed Dany as a monster this episode. Obviously your mileage varies. My overwhelming emotion surrounding her was incredible sadness. I couldn't believe she was burning the town and its people & found it horrific, but seeing her crying atop Drogon before she did it, she came across as broken rather than evil. Evil is a word I associate with Cersei or Ramsey.

Similarly to a degree, Arya was at a life-altering crossroad this episode too, and she chose more wisely than Dany. Though to be fair, I think Arya had a lot more in her past & her present than Dany ever did to help her make the better choice.

[Chris24601]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I keep thinking about this wrt to the idea of them being marriage. Like even other characters saw that a balance between the two would be ideal, and I believe that's the idea of the Shadow, right? You're not supposed to destroy it but acknowledge and work with it within yourself.

So at first it was logical that maybe Jon and Dany together would be positive, but instead when together they simply pushed each other into their previous bad patterns.

Actually, the point is to overcome the shadow and become the true positive expression of the archetype. The king must have enough self-confidence to both trust his own judgments (i.e. not give his power away) and to not need external shows of their power to boost their own confidence. The true king can confidently reside in a hovel and still be able to provide order and the opportunities for his people to grow.

And I went into this in a past episode thread, but it bears repeating; the two shadows don’t complement each other, they always make each other worse because they both suffer the same flaw (insecurity with their power in the case of the king) they just express that flaw differently.

In the case of an Impotent King and a Tyrant King, the Impotent King is insecure with their power and so gives it to the Tyrant, who just uses that power for even more grandiose displays to mask their insecurity.

That fact (and the show running on reverses) is why I could predict that the premiere would be the high point for Jon and Dany... because they are toxic for each other.

1 hour ago, GiuliettaMasina said:

It's not that Dany fans "missed" moments, it's that we interpreted them differently. And, if we were supposed to interpret the ruthlessness with which Dany treated her enemies as foreshadowing of her treatment of innocents who had done nothing to her, then Sansa (dogs), Arya (pies), and Tyrion (toilet) better get portrayed as monsters next episode, or I'm not buying it.

The key distinction, and why season five for me particularly, is that Sansa and Arya targeted people they specifically knew were guilty. Dany didn’t.

Ramsey’s death was actually the height of irony. Those were HIS own dogs that he’d chosen to starve for a week so they’d tear apart whoever he threw in there after the battle (I believe his plan was Jon, after he’d raped Sansa in front of him).

If he’d just treated his own dogs humanely and fed them, he’d have had nothing to fear from being locked in that pen with them. He was literally undone by his own cruelty.

Likewise, even as Arya killed all the adult male Freys who’d been involved in the Red Wedding, she was careful not to let any innocents drink the poison. Her desire was to punish those who were guilty and no one else.

But for Dany, the moment where I became utterly convinced by the narrative that Dany would ultimately be the villain though was when we she threw a man to her dragons to be burned and ripped apart AFTER admitting she didn’t know if he was guilty or innocent. All she cared about was her pain at Selmy’s death and scaring the others into line.

Before that it was the moment that Hizdhar informed Dany that his father, whom she’d crucified, had been opposed to the Masters’ crucifixion of the slaves for which she’d had 163 random Masters crucified as punishment. She didn’t care enough to find out who was innocent or guilty of the particular crime, she just wanted people to suffer for it and her self-righteousness to be assuaged.

That’s actually been the most defining trait of Dany’s violence... she cares more about shows of power when she feels she’s been wronged than with actually punishing the guilty... going all the way back to Mirri Maz Dur who was burned alive for killing the warlord who ordered her village burned, her people killed and her to be gang raped... because Dany cared more about the Warlord than the slave seeking justice.

Another key distinction is that in the case of Sansa, Arya and Tyrion... they were punishing someone who had done wrong to them first. Dany was the one who started the fight with all the Masters, starting with going back on her deal with the slavers who sold her the Unsullied and killing them all.

Yes, slavery is bad, but she went in with zero plan for the long term with the subtlety of a sledgehammer, then got pissed at people when it turned out to not be as easy as a Saturday Morning Cartoon to deal with... and didn’t particularly care whether the particular person she was punishing because she was pissed off was innocent or guilty.

I understand that people read things differently, but how much of that reading you made came down to how Dany felt about things vs. objective facts?

The Dothraki are objectively murderous raping pillagers, but because they were helping Dany they were “good guys” and the slave who killed Dany’s dreams of conquering Westeros with Khal Drogo’s horde was the “villain.”

Objectively, Dany bargained in bad faith with the Unsullied slave traders and betrayed them, but that’s okay because they were asshole victims and Dany got an army to replace the Dothraki with.

Objectively, Dany crucified 163 people selected at random from the Masters of Mereen without even bothering to determine who had actually decided to crucify the slaves along the roadside. But that’s okay because they were slavers and probably guilty of something (if the crime is being a slaver... execute them all. If the crime is crucifying slaves, execute the ones who actually ordered it... that’s what actually makes it tyrannical).

She fed a man of uncertain guilt to her dragons, but that’s okay because Selmy had been murdered by the Sons of the Harpy last episode and someone needed to be made an example of to keep the former Masters in line.

And in retrospect he was almost certainly innocent since the Sons of the Harpy were later learned to have been funded by forces outside Mereen... so the idea that Dany doesn’t kill innocents to keep her subjects in line has actually been disproven since season five when she did precisely that.

That’s the difference between Sansa, Arya and Tyrion punishing the guilty for their specific crimes and Dany punishing people based on what will best keep her subjects in line.

Daenerys has always been “More of the Same.” It’s now just too obvious for people to be able to make excuses for it anymore.

I’m actually kinda relieved it went that way. I was dreading years of debates over whether what Dany did was justifed or not if they’d gone with something more muddy... like the city didn’t surrender and she’d just gone nuclear on the Red Keep and the innocents within died from the collateral damage.

We’ve been spared that. There’s no room for doubt anymore that she’s a monster. Madness or deliberate choice is largely irrelevant... the monster needs to be stopped regardless.

[Heathrowe]

45 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

It's not rare at all.

It's a myth that it's rare.  "Good guys" do it too, history is written by the winners, not the losers. 

Well, what is rare is the actual conqueror his or herself, personally riding the dragon/wielding the weapon that kills multitudes. I'm not sure if that's any worse than being the person who gives the order to torch a city. Usually the ugly business is carried out by those lower down in the ranks. 

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, Heathrowe said:

Well, what is rare is the actual conqueror his or herself, personally riding the dragon/wielding the weapon that kills multitudes. I'm not sure if that's any worse than being the person who gives the order to torch a city. Usually the ugly business is carried out by those lower down in the ranks. 

Or those flying planes with bombs or nukes.

Still, the person ordering it is guilty as well, Dany just happens to ride and adore her WMD.

[screamin]

43 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Dany would have to eliminate Jon at the very least, and probably all who know about Jon's true claim to the throne.

If Varys has already let the word out (as the raven messages seem to imply he had at least been thinking about) there's no putting the genie back in the bottle.

Even if he didn't, maybe Dany is acting on the assumption that the word is going out no matter what she does (there's no way she can kill everyone and not have one of them catch on and spread the word) and her countermove is to make sure as the only possessor of a dragon that siding with dragonless Jon is absolutely unthinkable.

I still don't think it jibes with Dany's character as we know it, but at least it's a rationale.

Edited May 14, 2019 by screamin

[GiuliettaMasina]

19 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

The problem is that none of these other characters are walking around with massive messiah complexes and demanding to be acknowledged as ruler of a country that they spent the majority of their lives outside of. Sansa is very content in the North and would be more than happy to have the North left to its own devices. Arya has gone after those who've caused direct harm to her family, but isn't slaughtering innocents along the way. Tyrion killed the parent that abused him all his life, tried to have him killed, had his first wife gang raped and murdered and turned Shea against him. 

Seeking medieval leadership based on medieval blood rules is supposed to be contemptible on a show selling itself a medieval political thriller? The history the show is drawing from is rife with kings who grew up outside the country they eventually ruled--I'm not buying this as evidence of Dany's being particularly bad. And until the last episode Dany hadn't slaughtered any innocents either, which is my point of contention in the first place. 

19 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

And having a dragon at her disposal, not to mention two armies not exactly know for their gentleness (especially the Dothraki), she had the wherewithal to do tremendous damage if she gave in to her worst impulses. Which she did. Would a few more episodes of watching Dany slip increasingly into paranoia and lashing out at those who had supported her made this turn more believable? I don't think so. I've seen plenty of cases where characters have done things that their fans disliked and no matter how well-supported the story-lines were, I'd hear the cries of "character assassination". I get that a lot of people were deeply invested in Dany's story, but that doesn't change the fact that looking at her past behavior, destroying King's Landing isn't that much of a stretch. This is the same girl who'd promised her Dorthraki followers that they would burn cities and conquer under her leadership, so I do think that many who didn't see this turn coming were, at least, compartmentalizing her actions so that they could remain supporters of her quest. It's easy to ignore atrocities if those she's attacked weren't sympathetic, but it was pretty obvious that there was going to be a point where she would run out of unsympathetic targets. 

Dany being able to do more damage is beside the point. The question is: would she cause that damage to begin with. You may not think a few more episodes would have made it more believable and that's fine, but the implications flying around that Dany fans aren't capable of forming rational opinions about this show (or apparently literature in general) because they're blinded by their fandom is simply not fair. Just because we didn't come to the same conclusion as others doesn't mean we don't know how to interpret a tv show. Especially when we're talking about writers who can't even be bothered to learn how to pronounce the names of the main characters--they are most assuredly not masters of tight plotting.

Dany destroying Kings Landing in actual battle? Not a stretch. Dany mowing down non-combatants street by street? I'm calling it a reach, and not because I'm invested in her quest. 

19 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Who is she going after next? My bets will be Sansa and the North for defying her and seeking (in her mind) to undermine her claim. She's going to end up giving Jon and the others no choice but to stop her.

She most assuredly deserves to die at this point. I doubt she'll even get to the point of going after someone else, as Jon and the others already have no choice but to stop her.

[Umbelina]

9 minutes ago, screamin said:

If Varys has already let the word out (as the raven messages seem to imply he had at least been thinking about) there's no putting the genie back in the bottle.

Even if he didn't maybe Dany is acting on the assumption that the word is going out no matter what she does (there's no way she can kill everyone and not have one of them catch on and spread the word) and her countermove is to make sure as the only possessor of a dragon that siding with dragonless Jon is absolutely unthinkable.

I still don't think it jibes with Dany's character as we know it, but at least it's a rationale.

She doesn't know Varys sent those ravens though.

Dany's "character" is to do whatever it takes to be Queen of Westeros.

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Actually, the point is to overcome the shadow and become the true positive expression of the archetype. The king must have enough self-confidence to both trust his own judgments (i.e. not give his power away) and to not need external shows of their power to boost their own confidence. The true king can confidently reside in a hovel and still be able to provide order and the opportunities for his people to grow.

And I went into this in a past episode thread, but it bears repeating; the two shadows don’t complement each other, they always make each other worse because they both suffer the same flaw (insecurity with their power in the case of the king) they just express that flaw differently.

In the case of an Impotent King and a Tyrant King, the Impotent King is insecure with their power and so gives it to the Tyrant, who just uses that power for even more grandiose displays to mask their insecurity.

That fact (and the show running on reverses) is why I could predict that the premiere would be the high point for Jon and Dany... because they are toxic for each other.

Oh! So the show is practically a blueprint of that conflict. Jon handed all power to Dany, but it just made her more insecure. She'd moved on to needing him to shut out his family etc. So Jon needs to overcome his own insecurity about power by seeing Dany clearly as something that needs to be taken care of instead of ignoring warning signs because she's the one who knows what she'd doing. They were absolutely toxic for each other. He's not getting confidence in his own judgment because of Dany's influence, but from the situation she winds up creating that he can't ignore. Because Jon's usually motivated by actually wanting to do right without needing any grand shows of gratitude. Even Tormund calling him a king was done in an affectionate way.

I think, btw, that this is also why calls for people to have been nicer to Dany aren't really accurate. She would have been happy with expressions of gratitude and friendliness--but people approaching her like she's just a girl at a new school wouldn't really be the kind of respect she's used to getting. And the dragons would keep people from trying it. She was speaking honestly when she said of Sansa that she didn't need her to be her friend but she needed her to respect her as a queen.

[BitterApple]

2 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

I just rewatched Cleganebowl, just to make sure I actually had seen what I thought I saw. Yup. I did. FrankenMountain starts the fight wearing full plate armor, and by the end of it he is completely shirtless. What is he, a Chippendale? Did Cersei have him equipped with special tear-away armor so he could dance for her? Or was that just Qyburn's thing? No wonder the big lug finally turned on him.

Cleganebowl annoyed the shit out of me. I'm okay with fanservice, but I'm pissed we got fanservice in the form of a pointless bro-on-bro sword duel. Giving Cersei the brutal death she deserved would've been the better option in this instance."Death By Masonry" had zero emotional pay-off.

[Pestilentia]

On 5/13/2019 at 12:30 PM, Daisy said:

has Dany once this season taken a moment to figure out how this is impacting Jon? Nope. it's how it's impacting her, and her destiny. 

She really is a victim of her upbringing. When you consider that she only had Viserys telling her stories of entitlement and how universally loved they were all her life it's no wonder she can't handle rejection. She is not equipped for anything besides vengeance, the acquisition of power, and everlasting adulation.

[VCRTracking]

[screamin]

12 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

She doesn't know Varys sent those ravens though.

He may not have. But her assumption may be that even if he didn't, the word will spread through the many people who already know it anyway (which is pretty likely).

[JennyMominFL]

56 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

Cleganebowl annoyed the shit out of me. I'm okay with fanservice, but I'm pissed we got fanservice in the form of a pointless bro-on-bro sword duel. Giving Cersei the brutal death she deserved would've been the better option in this instance."Death By Masonry" had zero emotional pay-off.

I did sort of want her to suffer more. Though I do see a weird symmetry in her dying under the literal walls of her making. And Jaime wanted to die in the arms of his true love but I dont think he meant crushed to death by bricks

Edited May 14, 2019 by JennyMominFL