S08.E04: The Last of the Starks

[HunterHunted]

2 hours ago, MrsR said:

In Jon and Dany's place, I would have claimed sovereignty, set up new capital and begin collecting taxes and support from the kingdoms they already had in their control. The North, the Vale, the Iron Islands, the Westerlands, Dorne, the Stormlands. Go secure the Reach and River Run, send Dany on a goodwill tour and let Cersie continue to pay for an army she's not using.  

But that's not cinematic.

1 hour ago, Luckylyn said:

Exactly,  if the only place Cersei can hold is King’s Landing she’s not the true ruler.  Dany should focus on allying with those of the houses that are left and getting the Iron Bank to support her instead of Cersei.  Let’s say some conquerer took over all of the U.S. but didn’t capture Washington DC.   If the people in Washington aren’t actually running things in the rest of the country they’ve lost even though they hold the capital.  King’s Landing is one place.   Isolate Cersei there while consolidating alliances elsewhere surrounding her.  The Iron Throne is a powerful symbol but simply sitting in it is not enough to rule.  Joffrey sat on the Iron Throne but Tywin was the real power running things.  

Dany needs to focus on practical power rather than symbolic power.  Make her own capital and cut Cersei out by stripping her of any allies, cut off her access to supplies and increase her financial instability through gaining support of the Iron Bank.

Amen to both of your posts!!! If Dany and Jon secure the rest of the seven kingdoms and create order out of chaos, collect taxes, and signal to the rest of the world that there's a stable ruler in Westeros, which is the sole reason the Iron Bank loaned Cersei money because the Lannisters are broke, Dany wins without a battle. Even better if Dario has managed to actually stabilize the eastern cities that Dany conquered. The Iron Bank needs to see that there is infrastructure and economy in Westeros. I wouldn't be entirely surprised if the Iron Bank got word to the Golden Company that their services were no longer required in Westeros.

Furthermore if Dany is busy giving out titles and castles, it's just going to bug the shit out of the millions of people who have crammed themselves into King's Landing for Cersei's protection. They're hearing about these foreigners on their lands and in their homes and Dany's not making a move on KL. I'm sure food will start running out and disease will be rampant in KL. The people will be at each other's throats. Cersei can barely stifle her sneers. They don't even have their faith to comfort them because some crazy bitch blew up the Great Sept.

Dany needs to do more than say she's a queen. She needs to be a queen, which means the boring business that no one is looking forward to doing. You guys need a bridge; my Unsullied will help your people rebuild this bridge. Maybe she could have had a formal sitdown with the Lords of the North and the Wildlings to figure out what to do about the Wall and the Night's Watch. There aren't any white walkers, but there are still Wildlings and that's been the biggest part of the NW job for a thousand years. There is peace now, but how do they ensure that there will be peace in a decade, a century, and another thousand years. It's shit like this that actually brings peace to the realm.

Edited May 7, 2019 by HunterHunted

[UNOSEZ]

31 minutes ago, ticklemepink said:

Brienne and Jamie already had a deeply intimate and frankly beautiful scene two episodes ago that established their deep friendship and platonic love for each other. It just did not make sense to me that they needed to have sex. This show in its last season continues to rewrite female characters as stock stereotypes - now Brienne, a KNIGHT FOR GOD SAKE, is a mewling baby crying after the man who left her after deflowering her? 

God, end it already. 

I'm not trying to be a contrarian here this is an honest question.. Cuz I've seen more than a few ( I would assume based on user names Women)  say something similar about Brienne.. Some thing similar to what was said about Michonne on TWD... Anyway can't she still be a knight and valiant and strong and everything else we love about her... But still be,  in that moment an emotional wreck.. because the man who she's in some kind of love with ( that relationship has always been all over the place to me)  and who just deflowered her( with all the emotional weight that comes with especially for Brienne who maybe never expected it)  is now riding off to what will probably be his death either way.. ( killing or attempting to save cersei)  I guess Im asking of her being a knight precludes her from having that reaction... Again I am a guy so its totally possible this has a frequency I'm not totally tuned into so I'm legit asking

[VCRTracking]

[JennyMominFL]

2 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

I'm not trying to be a contrarian here this is an honest question.. Cuz I've seen more than a few ( I would assume based on user names Women)  say something similar about Brienne.. Some thing similar to what was said about Michonne on TWD... Anyway can't she still be a knight and valiant and strong and everything else we love about her... But still be,  in that moment an emotional wreck.. because the man who she's in some kind of love with ( that relationship has always been all over the place to me)  and who just deflowered her( with all the emotional weight that comes with especially for Brienne who maybe never expected it)  is now riding off to what will probably be his death either way.. ( killing or attempting to save cersei)  I guess Im asking of her being a knight precludes her from having that reaction... Again I am a guy so its totally possible this has a frequency I'm not totally tuned into so I'm legit asking

She can

[UNOSEZ]

39 minutes ago, Luckylyn said:

Exactly,  if the only place Cersei can hold is King’s Landing she’s not the true ruler.  Dany should focus on allying with those of the houses that are left and getting the Iron Bank to support her instead of Cersei.  Let’s say some conquerer took over all of the U.S. but didn’t capture Washington DC.   If the people in Washington aren’t actually running things in the rest of the country they’ve lost even though they hold the capital.  King’s Landing is one place.   Isolate Cersei there while consolidating alliances elsewhere surrounding her.  The Iron Throne is a powerful symbol but simply sitting in it is not enough to rule.  Joffrey sat on the Iron Throne but Tywin was the real power running things.  

Dany needs to focus on practical power rather than symbolic power.  Make her own capital and cut Cersei out by stripping her of any allies, cut off her access to supplies and increase her financial instability through gaining support of the Iron Bank.

I could be wrong ima have to watch again.. But I feel like I heard Dany say something to the effect of... As long as she's on the throne Shes queen.. Like the physical IT... Dany needs the throne.. She saw it in her dream in Qarth so even if someone had said let's do that Dany would shot it down

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

Maybe Dany should marry Gendry to unite the 7 Kingdoms. It'll be the old ruling family marrying the new one. Lol

Although Arya turned down Gendry's proposal, this might get Daenerys added to Arya's list.

[UNOSEZ]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Although Arya turned down Gendry's proposal, this might get Daenerys added to Arya's list.

She's already getting close to being on there.. This would push her over the top.. Lol

[Uncle JUICE]

Why didn't anyone ask bran to go take a look around wherever they were planning to go? Fucking show. 

Now that I think about ot,  what was thr night king's plan if theu didnt come north with a friggin dragon? Wouldn't he still br trying to climb the magical wall?  In other words couldn't they have done the king's landing shit immediately,  cleanly and quickly then figured ot what to do about him? 

Edited May 7, 2019 by Uncle JUICE

[Drogo]

4 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Why didn't anyone ask bran to go take a look around wherever they were planning to go? Fucking show. 

Maybe they did and Iron Dickbreath wasn't there at the time?

[BooBear]

14 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

  I guess Im asking of her being a knight precludes her from having that reaction... Again I am a guy so its totally possible this has a frequency I'm not totally tuned into so I'm legit asking

My problem with these scene is that it just wasn't Brianne. Have we ever seen her cry before? Even when Renly was killed? Backing up though I just thought the whole thing was out of some romance book. Her feeling insecure about being asked if she was a virgin, Jamie running after her. I also don't buy that SHE would ever buy Jamie showing any sexual attraction to her. After years and years of people making fun of her for her looks I think she wouldn't be capable of dealing with it in any normal way.  She might know Jamie was legit but wouldn't want her heart broken for the 1% chance that he was not on the level.  I might have bought it more they had sex pre fighting the dead. At least then, day after consequences were in doubt and Brianne could just enjoy herself. 

[JennyMominFL]

4 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Maybe they did and Iron Dickbreath wasn't there at the time?

Best name ever

[Drogo]

Just now, BooBear said:

Her feeling insecure about being asked if she was a virgin, Jamie running after her. I also don't buy that SHE would ever buy Jamie showing any sexual attraction to her. 

Especially when he was pounding wine just to be able to stomach a non-Cersei vagine.

Jamie was (by far) always the driest of the siblings. 

[Hiacios]

20 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

As is Jon, since Rheagar and Lyanna got married before Jon was born.

You just made my point. Jon only has a right to the throne because he is a Targaryen and he only has more right to the throne over Dany because he is a male. Take the Targaryen part out and that all falls away.

House Stark pledged their allegiance to house Targaryen and Jon pledged his to Dany so she should rightfully set on the iron throne. 

[Helena Dax]

15 minutes ago, Hiacios said:

You just made my point. Jon only has a right to the throne because he is a Targaryen and he only has more right to the throne over Dany because he is a male. Take the Targaryen part out and that all falls away.

House Stark pledged their allegiance to house Targaryen and Jon pledged his to Dany so she should rightfully set on the iron throne. 

I don't really want to see Jon on the IT, but he has more right than her because he's  Rhaegar's son and she's his sister. If she was Viserys instead of Dany, the rightful heir would still be Jon. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by Helena Dax

[Andromeda]

2 hours ago, GraceK said:

How many people died in the sack of Kings Landing? In Roberts Rebellion? To oust Aerys, Tywin had children slaughtered and Robert made him hand of the king. That’s acceptable though right? Robert  Baratheon hunted down all the Targaryens he could, and that’s ok right? Tywin destroys house Tarbeck viciously and thats ok right? It seems like in pursuit of a throne, or family power, it’s perfectly acceptable to do whatever it takes as long your name isn’t Daenerys Targaryen cause then you might be “ mad”.  

Dany has been quite rational in Westeros. Motives aside, she has listened to Tyrion every time except for the Tarleys. She has shown to temper her impulses. She put her quest on hold and came North, honoring her promise. In fact, she has sustained heavy losses and allies by listening to her advisors. So where does Varys get all this paranoia about Jon being a better ruler? What has she done in Westeros and the North except help, and lose everything? She loses her temper and she’s “ crazy”? She’s human. She’s up against a true paranoid, evil person and she’s held to a standard of war fare that doesn’t make sense. None of the men get this treatment. And they want Jon Snow on the throne? Season 1 Varys didn’t want Ned on the throne because he was too honorable , said in season 7 that Robert was a bad king because he didn’t want to be king. But now he wants Ned junior who doesn’t want to be King to be king? What am I watching?

I KNOW!!! I Just. Don't. Get. It. Unless it turns out that Varys has been planting this seed of doubt for his own ends, I'm really unclear why the sudden change toward Dany. Varys has seen and lived through the worst in rulers. Dany doesn't even come close. Oh, but female.... Is it any wonder we're thinking it's all a bit sexist? Even Cersei, who blew up the sept, isn't tainted with the  "Mad Queen" moniker. But, unlike Daenerys, she's more than proven herself worthy of that title.

[Uncle JUICE]

10 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Maybe they did and Iron Dickbreath wasn't there at the time?

Lol. That's captain iron dickbreath. Apparently master anti aircraft gunner too. Fuck I hate that dude. But honestly what good is being the the eyed raven if thoy cant figure ot when your powers come in handy. 

[Hiacios]

2 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

I don't really want to see Jon on the IT, but he has more right than her because he's  Rhaegar's son and she's his sister. If she was Viserys instead of Dany, the rightful heir would still be Jon. 

That's only because he is a Targaryen and a male. Jon doesn't want to be king of anything and hopefully he sticks by her side and they don't make him betray her like they're hinting at so Sansa can claim the IT. Jon is going to die, I just know it. 

[MrWhyt]

1 hour ago, BooBear said:

Also I think it keeps Game of Thrones the show trending for things other than the bad writing. 

yes cause the biggest show in the world has to resort to bloopers to make people talk about it. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by MrWhyt

[Drogo]

2 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Because they were mocked and memed to kingdom come for this promo shot:

Hydrate or die.

[Affogato]

30 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Although Arya turned down Gendry's proposal, this might get Daenerys added to Arya's list.

That’s not her.

[Drogo]

6 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

I KNOW!!! I Just. Don't. Get. It. Unless it turns out that Varys has been planting this seed of doubt for his own ends, I'm really unclear why the sudden change toward Dany. Varys has seen and lived through the worst in rulers. Dany doesn't even come close. Oh, but female.... Is it any wonder we're thinking it's all a bit sexist? Even Cersei, who blew up the sept, isn't tainted with the  "Mad Queen" moniker. But, unlike Daenerys, she's more than proven herself worthy of that title.

The problem with this Tyrion/Varys conversation is Davos wasn't there to say What We're All Thinking.

[BooBear]

12 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

I KNOW!!! I Just. Don't. Get. It. Unless it turns out that Varys has been planting this seed of doubt for his own ends, I'm really unclear why the sudden change toward Dany. Varys has seen and lived through the worst in rulers. Dany doesn't even come close. Oh, but female.... Is it any wonder we're thinking it's all a bit sexist? Even Cersei, who blew up the sept, isn't tainted with the  "Mad Queen" moniker. But, unlike Daenerys, she's more than proven herself worthy of that title.

It is sexist. Also, you don't just jump from proposed leader to proposed leader. There is a lot of work to be done to set up a new candidate. I mean wasn't Varys working on Dany's behalf from at the VERY least season 5 on? Now he just jumps off at a moments notice. Man that is a lot of work down the drain. And since Jon is also a Targaryen and could go mad (notice all the mad Targs have been men) it would seem to be a foolish course of action until Dany had done something concrete. Every time Dany adds a braid they are ready to jump off the Dany train. 

The only problem with Dany is them. 

[chrisvee]

29 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Especially when he was pounding wine just to be able to stomach a non-Cersei vagine.

Jamie was (by far) always the driest of the siblings. 

Huh and here I thought he was just nervous bc it meant so much to him

[GraceK]

7 minutes ago, BooBear said:

It is sexist. Also, you don't just jump from proposed leader to proposed leader. There is a lot of work to be done to set up a new candidate. I mean wasn't Varys working on Dany's behalf from at the VERY least season 5 on? Now he just jumps off at a moments notice. Man that is a lot of work down the drain. And since Jon is also a Targaryen and could go mad (notice all the mad Targs have been men) it would seem to be a foolish course of action until Dany had done something concrete. Every time Dany adds a braid they are ready to jump off the Dany train. 

The only problem with Dany is them. 

I also don’t blame her for feeling paranoid in that environment. She has lost so much in the North and is still being treated as an interloper, Sansa is giving her stink eye every second , Tormund is praising Jon for riding Dragons like she doesn’t exist, and there are people plotting to put him on the throne or at the very least talking shit behind her back. I mean hello???? She knows she has no support there really, and Jon is gradually pulling away and she loves him. And no one gives her any passes for the fact she is also grieving and is human as well, and maybe is a little fragile herself.  No, she’s just evil and entitled and a maaad Queen 🙄

Edited May 7, 2019 by GraceK

[Drogo]

2 minutes ago, chrisvee said:

Huh and here I thought he was just nervous bc it meant so much to him

I don't think you're far off.

I think he really wanted to like it and not need Cersei... but he didn't, and he does. 

[millennium]

4 minutes ago, chrisvee said:

Huh and here I thought he was just nervous bc it meant so much to him

I don't know if it meant that much.   I LOL'ed when afterwards in bed Jaime gazed at the ceiling with that all-too-familiar expression: "What did I just do?"

[Chris24601]

39 minutes ago, Luckylyn said:

Exactly,  if the only place Cersei can hold is King’s Landing she’s not the true ruler...

...Dany needs to focus on practical power rather than symbolic power.

The problem is that Dany’s always had the Shadow King archetype. It’s why she collects titles like other people collect stamps and why she’s so put off by people showing loyalty to people other than her. It’s why she’s prone to lashing out and making threats when she suffers a reversal or receives less than perfect acquiescence (note that the most effective means of “managing” Dany has been presenting alternative means of getting the same general results).

This is because the Shadow King is fundamentally insecure in their own power; and Dany is doubly so now that Jon’s revealed his parentage because it utterly undermines her most effective claim to legitimacy.

So to assuage this insecurity, the Shadow King focuses on the trappings. In many ways the trappings are more important than truly having the power.

It doesn’t matter that Cersei has nothing but King’s Landing... what matters to the insecure Shadow King is that even being able to make the claim of being “A” queen is a threat to her.

If she was going to grow into the True King archetype, she wouldn’t be so laser focused on the symbolism of the Iron Throne to the point of dismissing the well-being of her own troops need to rest and recouperate and ignoring the fact that the new leadership in Dorne supports her claim.

Because legitimate control of the North, Vale, Iron Islands and Dorne; with the Riverlands pretty easy to retake (which would provide a solid line of defense for their holdings as they regroup and rearm for a spring campaign to put Cersei in a two-front war from the Riverlands in the north and Dorne in the south); doesn’t assuage the underlying insecurity.

I think Tyrion really did highlight the truth of it... Dany fell victim to her own hype over in Essos and has been off-balance ever since reaching Westeros because her self-perceived destiny isn’t playing out as envisioned and, as is common for the Shadow King, is lashing out in an attempt to bring it back into line with that vision.

3 minutes ago, Hiacios said:

You just made my point. Jon only has a right to the throne because he is a Targaryen and he only has more right to the throne over Dany because he is a male.

No. Because if this were Dan Targaryen vs. Joanne Snow/Anne Targaryen... Joanne would STILL have the better claim, because she is the eldest surviving child of the Crown Prince.

Dany’s problem is she staked her claim on the moral legitimacy of being best claimant due to her Targaryen bloodline. Now that she CAN’T make that claim, she insists the rules be changed from the ones SHE set (i.e. legitimate heir to the previous Targ king) to let her still get what she wants.

Jon knelt under false pretenses. He’d been lied to about his identity all his life. Had he known, then by right of the same claims Dany was using to name herself Queen, SHE should have been the one bending the knee to the true heir to Iron Throne when he asked her to bring her forces North for the good of the Realm.

She’s as power hungry... and as illegitimate... as Cersei, Joffrey and Renly (all of whom had no legitimate claim at all or were trying to jump the line). By demanding Jon deny his true identity, she’s making herself just as much a usurper to the true king as Robert was.

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

Jon ruling Westeros would be the best thing for Northern independence because his sympathies would always lie there. At the very least, the North would have enough autonomy to run their own affairs without interference from Kings Landing and the seven kingdoms would be more of a confederation (with Jon as a president or prime minister kind of figure). 

I think they'd probably want him to free the North completely.

11 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I don't think she his having delusions.  Sansa, Tyrion and Varys are actively undermining her.  She just  lost her two best friends, half her troops and her 2nd child.

You aren't paranoid if people are really out to get you.   

Tyrion is a likable,  clever fool.  He would never be a good ruler. He has been a horrible adviser to Dany.  Sansa would turn into a mini Cersei with that power. 

I think Tyrion would be a pretty good ruler. He's one of the only characters who likes to rule--meaning actually coming up with boring, administrative stuff that makes the land run better. He wouldn't be a glorious king of legend, but the kingdom would probably run really well under him.

10 hours ago, taurusrose said:

Thanks for the Cliff Notes version.  LOL

Why should Jon keep a secret about his identity now?  Robert is dead.  There isn't a threat to him on that level.  I don't believe Dany would harm him because of that, but if she tries...then maybe she is going nuts.

Who says they won't?  Yara asked for independence back in Meereen and Daenerys granted it.  

10 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Exactly.  The Iron Islands are nothing but rocks and bird shit and a lot of very unattractive people  🙂

That said, if the North asked nicely I think Dany would probably have been willing to give them nearly complete autonomy, and maybe even allowed them to have a King in the North, as long as they bent the knee and pledged to fight for her when called upon.  This was the deal that Renly offered Robb, through Catelyn, that they probably would have accepted if not for the attack of the smoke baby.  

When Sansa asked about her intentions toward the North Dany didn't seem very open to making them too independent. She doesn't seem to want to give them up.

6 hours ago, Andromeda said:

If she was going to raise it as a concern, why didn't she do her homework and ask them before the meeting? It comes off just like the food issue, as Sansa thinking up something to spar with Dany over. Food and soldier health are both important issues, but Sansa is just using them to be contrary, which is a shame.

I don't think she should have to do that much homework and make a case for something as practical as giving the soldiers time to heal. She gave them a perfectly good answer when asked how long she was thinking--she left the answer up to the people with the best practical knowledge on the subject. It's not like there was any question that Sansa has the authority to decide when the army marches south.

3 hours ago, Drogo said:

The moral of the house fire analogy is that Dany didn't have to help Jon with shit- she could have gone on with her original plan and still have 3 dragons to show for it. Like Cersei. The neighbor could have gotten into his car and left us (and our house) to burn. 

She's demanding what's hers. The King in the North bent the knee to her.  Following the bent knee, negotiations for the North are over. 

Yes, exactly.

So you're saying that if your neighbor said, "I don't care that the fire is taking over houses one by one on the block and my house is after yours. I don't have to do shit to help you with your house. I could get in my car and leave you to burn. But I won't...if you sign over your house to me. Make your choice" and so you signed over your house and she then took what was hers (your house etc.) you would see your neighbor as a savior and be grateful to her? As opposed to just grudgingly handing over the house she used the fire to make you sign over? Would you see your neighbor primarily as the person who helped you save your house or the person who used your burning house to extort your house out of you and also got you to keep their own house from being burned as well. (Also you're helping them move into a second house as well.)

I get why she thinks she's owed it to rule them--she doesn't even think she's owed it because she helped them in the battle, actually, that was just how she got Jon to submit to her officially. She already thinks she's owed the throne because of who she is. The question isn't why Dany thinks she has the right to rule the north, it's why the North would see her as a savior the way freed slaves would. She wants to be loved *as a queen* by these people who just don't have those feelings for her. They could probably love her as an ally or a hero, but they don't love her as a queen.

2 hours ago, catrice2 said:

Just speaking for myself, my issue was not that he was afraid, but that he was whining and weak.  Those are two different things. I, for example, am useless in the kitchen.  I know that, so when there is food to be prepared I let the cooks in the family get down to business and I go and do what I am good at and stay out of the way.  I don't go in there trying to prove something messing up dishes and getting in their path as they are trying to navigate the space going between the prep area, refrigerator, stove, etc.  Nor do I stay in there chit chatting or whining about how I can't cook ....

I didn't think he was either of those things. He had moments of panic where he froze and wept--I would bet that happens to plenty of soldiers. But he seemed to also be killing people just like everyone else. If he hadn't been he wouldn't have survived. He was on his own there. Nobody was fighting for him. I consider him as much of a veteran of that battle as everyone else.

Dany doesn't seem mad to me at all. I thought Tyrion more nailed it when he just said she was like any other ruler. She's not a great savior who will clearly make everyone feel like they're living in a safer, freer world without fear is obviously not true. She doesn't have to be mad or evil for that to be the case. She wants to be a good ruler who's kind and just--she's not Cersei who would probably prefer to own slaves than free them. But reality is more complicated than those great moments. Even completely good things like freeing all the slaves can throw a country into chaos and darkness if you don't have a good plan for how that's going to work. Your bloodline and the stories you grew up with about being the rightful queen don't translate into common people seeing you that way.

Basically, Dany sees herself on the throne as a moral act in itself when it's really not.

The test is what she does with the conflict. Does she rethink her image of herself or try to force the world to conform to it?

I think the fantasy for Jon as king (a fantasy that would also not play out so simply in reality) is that he doesn't want to rule for the sake of ruling but does feel a responsibility to lead people when it's needed. So it's possible he would press his claim if a situation arose where it seemed like the only way to prevent some greater disaster.

[nodorothyparker]

11 hours ago, chrisvee said:

Huh and here I thought he was just nervous bc it meant so much to him

I can see this.  The scene was awkward and awkwardly shot but the more I think about it, I think that was probably intentional.  He's only had sex with his sister, which started when they were kids, and she spent pretty much all of last season doing her best to emasculate him by egging on Capt. Jackass Sparrow.  (Thank you, whichever reviewer coined that.)  Of course he's got no game and he's fumbling around like an idiot trying to figure out where to even begin.

12 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

I'm not trying to be a contrarian here this is an honest question.. Cuz I've seen more than a few ( I would assume based on user names Women)  say something similar about Brienne.. Some thing similar to what was said about Michonne on TWD... Anyway can't she still be a knight and valiant and strong and everything else we love about her... But still be,  in that moment an emotional wreck.. because the man who she's in some kind of love with ( that relationship has always been all over the place to me)  and who just deflowered her( with all the emotional weight that comes with especially for Brienne who maybe never expected it)  is now riding off to what will probably be his death either way.. ( killing or attempting to save cersei)  I guess Im asking of her being a knight precludes her from having that reaction... Again I am a guy so its totally possible this has a frequency I'm not totally tuned into so I'm legit asking

This is a great observation.  I know we're supposed to cheer on everybody being a dead-eyed snarky badass about whatever's thrown at them, but I'll admit I'm a little put off by the idea that you can't be strong and tough as hell and still have moments where you feel things so deeply they just wreck you.  This is the same woman who in one of her first episodes sobbed her heart out over Renly being killed and would have stayed there to take the fall for it because she believed she had failed him had Catelyn Stark not dragged her out of there.  And Renly in the grand scheme of things was just a gay man who had been kind to her.   She's had deep complicated feelings for Jaime for years and just finally finally began a physical relationship with him.  She better than probably anyone knows how emotionally damaged he is.  Now she's watching him ride away in the dead of night to probably get himself killed one way or another over the source of much of that damage.  I'd probably cry too.

[chrisvee]

30 minutes ago, Drogo said:

I don't think you're far off.

I think he really wanted to like it and not need Cersei... but he didn't, and he does. 

Huh. I think he was starting to live his best life with Brienne when Sansa and that scroll reminded him that he’s done loathsome things for which he needs to atone. 

[TaurusRose]

5 hours ago, Bannon said:

I did mean to mention last week that I was a little mortified by many in this forum who were so contemptuous of Sam's terror. To paraphrase Bronn, men piss themselves when they think they are about to die, and there's no shame in it. Yes, he froze or ran sometimes. Other times he managed to kill the enemy. Was he a great fighter? No, but not many are. He acquitted himself a lot better than many would have in a similarly terrifying situation, however.

Speaking for myself, I've never cared for Sam.  I only tolerated him slightly because of his friendship with Jon.  But Sam has always gotten on my last nerve whenever danger was afoot.  It took him so long to shank the WW when he and Gilly were making their way back to the wall I thought for sure he would be killed.  The being unable to save his ass by running and the sniveling and crying just don't work for me.  And I have the right to HATE him and his uselessness without explanation or apology.  He is a fictional character.

On another note, I just finished watching the extras for this episode on HBO.  I really can't stand D&D.  Why is it they can't pronounce Missandei or Cersei?  And all the Sansa is LF Jr. nonsense they like to spew bugs the crap out of me.  Sansa is not the sharpest knife in the drawer so stop telling me she is. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by taurusrose

[Lillith]

46 minutes ago, Drogo said:

I don't think you're far off.

I think he really wanted to like it and not need Cersei... but he didn't, and he does. 

Well he hit it again and was planning on staying in Winterfell until he heard about the dragon death so he must have liked it at least a bit. I think his feelings toward Cersei are *ahem* complicated to put it mildly. 

[Growsonwalls]

Re: Jaime and Brienne, I think it's obvious she had a crush on him. And he cared for her. He's a reasonably attractive guy and Brienne is a wonderful woman who adores him. They just had a huge battle where everyone is relieved to be alive. They were drunk. It's really not that complicated ...

I mean if Tormund can get laid it's not unbelievable that Jaime found himself in the sack as well after that huge "we're alive" keg party.

[hypnotoad]

Quote

Lastly, I hate that Cersei is getting more wins than the fricking Night King and army of the dead.  Really, show?  

Yeah I mean people were complaining about plot armor last week? Cersei has had nothing but plot armor throughout the series! I love me some Lena Heady but I am sick sick sick to death of Cersei winning. And no sorry she is not that clever - she just isn't.

My problem with Sam last week wasn't that he was afraid - he should have been afraid. My issue was he was in the damn way! He should have stayed in the crypt out of everyone's way because he's not a fighter. Plain and simple. He got Edd killed because he was trying to help and protect Sam.

I just cannot believe Dany wouldn't have thought to recon Dragonstone before going there. Or that one of her brilliant advisors wouldn't have thought of it! I don't really understand her rush - Cersei isn't going anywhere. As someone mentioned in the thread, why not let the soldiers recover, let Rhaegar recover, and start doing some PR? Get whatever houses are left and pick up some more folks for the army. PR the hell out of this and then go and get Cersei out of Kings Landing. Show the funeral, the celebration and then settle for a week or more and figure some shit out.

I absolutely hated this episode except for the beginning stuff. I didn't even mind Jamie and Brienne hooking up ... listen at least he finally had sex with someone other than his twin sister. I still think Jaimie will end up killing Cersei. I do. I refuse to believe he did this whole walking away from Cersei, fighting for the living and keeping his word, finally had a normal sexual experience and decided to stay with Brienne only to abruptly decide to get back with Cersei? Nope.

Of course that would make as much sense as this stupid mad queen stuff they are pushing.

[TaurusRose]

1 hour ago, Hiacios said:

That's only because he is a Targaryen and a male. 

No. It's because Jon's father (Rhaegar) was the crown prince and heir to the IT.  Viserys and Daenerys were Rhaegar's brother and sister.  Any children Rhaegar had, born in wedlock if you will, would be next in line after him.  The only reason Viserys and Daenerys thought they had any claim was because they didn't know about Aegon (Jon).  Jon's claim will always be stronger regardless of whether or not he wants it.  Jon being male is secondary.

14 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Re: Jaime and Brienne, I think it's obvious she had a crush on him. And he cared for her. He's a reasonably attractive guy and Brienne is a wonderful woman who adores him. They just had a huge battle where everyone is relieved to be alive. They were drunk. It's really not that complicated ...

I mean if Tormund can get laid it's not unbelievable that Jaime found himself in the sack as well after that huge "we're alive" keg party.

Tormund has two hands.  Just saying.  

Edited May 7, 2019 by taurusrose

[JennyMominFL]

3 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

No. It's because Jon's father (Rhaegar) was the crown prince and heir to the IT.  Viserys and Daenerys were Rhaegar's brother and sister.  Any children Rhaegar had born in wedlock if you will would be next in line after him.  The only reason Viserys and Daenerys thought they had any claim was because they didn't know about Aegon (Jon).  Jon's claim will always be stronger regardless of whether or not he wants it.  Jon being male is secondary.

Basically Jon is like Prince William’s son George and Dany is like Harry’s newborn son. It would not matter what sex Harry’s child was, William’s kid comes first . Harry’s kids do not become next in line until all of William’s kids and Harry himself die.

Edited May 7, 2019 by JennyMominFL

[jojozigs]

HOLY SHIIIT

i just saw this

the last epsode was nothing

this was. everything. 

Brienne and Jaime. jaime: You are a fucking LIAR. like in Season 6. I know why.  but no.  FUCK YOU. 

Varys. you are the worst.  Suck a bag of dicks you warmongering asshole.

Tyrion.  it's all your fault

Sansa.  it could work out if you could try for 2 seconds unless you want Cersei to win?!?!

Arya. yes.  you go with the hound. That's not you.  Hells.  Yes. 

Still think Jon and Dany both die.  At this point i think they kill the fuck out fo each other.

[jojozigs]

Pregnant people count:

Gilly/Sam:: yaS

Jon/Dany: ?????????

Jaime/Cersei:????????????????

euron/Cersei: ???????????????????????????

jaime/Brienne:????????????????????????????????????????????????????/?????

[QuinnM]

1 hour ago, BooBear said:

My problem with these scene is that it just wasn't Brianne. Have we ever seen her cry before? Even when Renly was killed? Backing up though I just thought the whole thing was out of some romance book. Her feeling insecure about being asked if she was a virgin, Jamie running after her. I also don't buy that SHE would ever buy Jamie showing any sexual attraction to her. After years and years of people making fun of her for her looks I think she wouldn't be capable of dealing with it in any normal way.  She might know Jamie was legit but wouldn't want her heart broken for the 1% chance that he was not on the level.  I might have bought it more they had sex pre fighting the dead. At least then, day after consequences were in doubt and Brianne could just enjoy herself.

 I keep wondering if the interactions between them over the years wasn’t showing something.  I remember all the seasons that Arya/Gendry were traveling together.  And they had a very sweet chemistry.  You always knew that Gendry genuinely liked her.  That he thought of her but that she was high born and he was not.  You always knew that Arya thought he was very special.  That she wanted him around because he was who he was.  Then they met at Winterfell and it was a believable progression.  So hats off to Williams and Dempsey, it was well acted for 10 years.

But it’s missing for the Brienne/Jamie relationship.  I want that to work but the previous 7 seasons haven’t been there.  Maybe there needed tender moments like Arya/Gendry had.  Who can forget ‘I can be your family’/‘No you’d be MiLady’.  Both actors gave everything you needed to believe that in k7 years they could be lovers.  The closest we got with Brienne/Jamie was the bath sequence.  But even that didn’t rise to the level of emotion that we got from Brienne just describing her first meeting with Renly.  So it’s a bigger jump.  

[ShellsandCheese]

6 hours ago, blackwing said:

Yes, I don't get it either.  I don't understand why she swooped right directly in front of Euron's ship and then turned away.  I thought she was preparing to intone "Dracarys" but she didn't.  Then I don't understand why she didn't fly behind the ships and just roast them all.  Those arrow cannon things were cumbersome, at the front of the ships, and probably couldn't be easily turned all the way facing backwards. 

Other things I didn't get:

Why Missandei didn't just take a run at Cersei.  The Mountain was some paces behind them.  She could have easily shoved Cersei off the platform.

Why Jon didn't take Ghost with him, or why Ghost would not have automatically run to him.  Wasn't it established in earlier seasons how bonded each direwolf was with their respective Stark?

At this point it’s practically pointless to debate all of the dumb actions by characters who used to show more intelligence. D&D are total hacks. And they are writing their characters as dumb as fuck for whatever reason. 

[Kate47]

I did love that, when it came down to it and Jaime started unlacing her shirt and it was obvious what was going to happen, Brienne approached it with confidence. I expected her to be awkward and embarrassed and I was pleased that she went forward with little hesitation. 

[chrisvee]

40 minutes ago, Lillith said:

Well he hit it again and was planning on staying in Winterfell until he heard about the dragon death so he must have liked it at least a bit. I think his feelings toward Cersei are *ahem* complicated to put it mildly. 

39 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Re: Jaime and Brienne, I think it's obvious she had a crush on him. And he cared for her. He's a reasonably attractive guy and Brienne is a wonderful woman who adores him. They just had a huge battle where everyone is relieved to be alive. They were drunk. It's really not that complicated ...

I mean if Tormund can get laid it's not unbelievable that Jaime found himself in the sack as well after that huge "we're alive" keg party.

They were together the entire time it took Dany and Co to sail to Dragonstone. Shouldn’t that have been about a week and a half?

[Athena5217]

14 hours ago, AnnaL said:

Dany's arrogance is going to cost her this war.  I feel so bad for poor Rhaegon and Missandei, they just paid with their lives for Dany's lack of sense. Nobody else is to blame for their death but Daenerys. 

Perhaps if Dany had followed Sansa’s suggestion to recuperate before going after Cersei, Rhaegal wouldn’t have been flying with a hole in his wing and have been able to evade some of Euron’s arrows. What does it say about Dany that she doesn’t think about the health of her beloved dragons before insisting they leave fo Kings Landing pronto?

Jon and Dany are lucky Westeros does not seem to have an ASPCA equivalent.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Athena5217
Correct spelling of name

[jojozigs]

5 minutes ago, Athena5217 said:

Perhaps if Dany had followed Sansa’s suggestion to recuperate before going after Cersei, Rhaegon wouldn’t have been flying with a hole in his wing and have been able to evade some of Euron’s arrows. What does it say about Dany that she doesn’t think about the health of her beloved dragons before insisting they leave fo Kings Landing pronto?

Jon and Dany are lucky Westeros does not seem to have an ASPCA equivalent.

yes but if we are gonna play the game of "whatif" it's Tyrion's fault Dany hasn't already disposed of Cersei via a quick and decisive strike against the REd Keep when she was most vulnerable.

So, ultimately, fuck Tyrion.

I say this even as I belive he'll be the winner in the end.

[LadyChaos]

Personally, I think Arya loves Gendry, but she doesn't want to be a Lady of a Castle.  If Gendry told her, 'I love you, I want to marry you, but you can come and go as you want. I don't want to hold you down.' She probably would have been more willing.  If he had asked her, without being a Lord, where they could have traveled together, I think she would have said yes.  But she will never be a Lady of a Castle.

[catrice2]

2 hours ago, BooBear said:

My problem with these scene is that it just wasn't Brianne. Have we ever seen her cry before? Even when Renly was killed? Backing up though I just thought the whole thing was out of some romance book. Her feeling insecure about being asked if she was a virgin, Jamie running after her. I also don't buy that SHE would ever buy Jamie showing any sexual attraction to her. After years and years of people making fun of her for her looks I think she wouldn't be capable of dealing with it in any normal way.  She might know Jamie was legit but wouldn't want her heart broken for the 1% chance that he was not on the level.  I might have bought it more they had sex pre fighting the dead. At least then, day after consequences were in doubt and Brianne could just enjoy herself. 

The whole scene played out like pity to me.  I think he admires her, etc. and he wants to be a knight in shining armor and well regarded by someone....so he made her a knight, making her dreams come true, and then when his brother humiliated her by calling out her virginity, once again it was Jaimie to the rescue.   I think they cheapened it by making them drunk and by not giving her the same "treatment'as they have the other women on the show.  It underscored the idea that since she does not have the acceptable body type that she is not desired, and that their audience might not want to see it.  So many wrongs in this episode...

[catrice2]

Question...if they could pander to the fans and give them Jaimie with Brienne,, Arya with Gendry why couldn't they pander to the fans and give a happy ending to the two former slaves?  I know everyone will say that no one gets a happy ending and Jaimie left Brienne, the other two are not together...but they are still alive...and I doubt when either one of them die it will be by beheading and I am guessing not in chains...

I'll bet any of those four will get a heroic death, wheres Greyworm is being set up to just slaughter people....

Unpopular opinion- I'm glad I did not watch this from the start because although I don't think most of the actors are that strong, I do think some of them grew into their roles and got stronger as actors.  I personally think Kit Harrington is one of the weaker ones. I get nothing from Jon's face...most of his scenes are just meh.....He and Sansa are such weak actors that they made 10/11 year old Bella Ramsay a star because she was so strong..

[Stella]

1 hour ago, Chris24601 said:

This is because the Shadow King is fundamentally insecure in their own power;

Isn't this a curse of the narcissist? I think so. She needs to be extra special and loved. And adored. Bowed down to.

There were/are so many other avenues she could have taken for her quest now. Imagine the incredibly fantastic PR she would be getting for helping the Northerners, Wildings and Vale forces in the defeat of the NK? She could really have worked this to her advantage. And with the Iron Islands & Dorne? She names Gendry Lord of the Stormlands. If she wants to gain the Riverlands she could with tactful diplomacy. But no. She is fearful and scared of a bigger threat. Jon Snow. In her mind anyway.

Jon Snow and his sister/cousin cooking up problems for her claim. So this:

2 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Dany fell victim to her own hype over in Essos and has been off-balance ever since reaching Westeros because her self-perceived destiny isn’t playing out as envisioned and, as is common for the Shadow King, is lashing out in an attempt to bring it back into line with that vision.

Her arc is tragic in many ways but she is her own undoing.

[VCRTracking]

[Calamity Jane]

3 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I have not gotten over Ghost looking so sad. Missandei has been on the danger list for a while, Arya and Gendry were unlikely to last, Jaime leaving Brienne was foreseeable — but for Ghost to survive and then get sent away, it’s breaking my heart. My son believes it means Jon will end up in the North. I’ll hope for that.