S08.E03: The Long Night

[GodsBeloved]

4 minutes ago, JonasArm said:

The plan was to use Bran to lure the NK next to the big tree and kill him there.

I was piggybacking off @MadameKillerB post

Quote

Has this been confirmed: Jon screaming Go, Go which implies he and Arya and Bran had a plan.

I don't see how that matches with the interaction b/t Melisandre and Arya. It was as if Arya just realized what she had to do. It didn't seem like she'd planned it beforehand with Jon. 

I remember the plan was to use Bran to lure the NK. I just didn't think the plan said "we will lure him, Arya will kill him".

[MadameKillerB]

I don't think that either. 

I was asking if that Go, Go theory had been confirmed because it doesn't make sense to me.

[Drogo]

10 minutes ago, JonasArm said:

The plan was to use Bran to lure the NK next to the big tree and kill him there.

2 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

I remember the plan was to use Bran to lure the NK. I just didn't think the plan said "we will lure him, Arya will kill him". 

@JonasArm has it - the plan was for the NK to die (most likely when he came for Bran) but nobody was picky about who actually did the killing or how or when. 

If Jon saw Arya unhindered behind Viserion, his screaming "GO!" would be telling her "Forget about me and this dragon, get to the tree/Bran!"

[Bryce Lynch]

6 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

I was piggybacking off @MadameKillerB post

I remember the plan was to use Bran to lure the NK. I just didn't think the plan said "we will lure him, Arya will kill him".

I think, from Jon's perspective, Arya might have been an improvised Plan B, when Jon was pinned down and saw her near the Godswood.  Of course she was Melissandre's Plan A.  

I think Jon might have realized that Arya was trying to get to Bran and the NK and was telling her, "The coast is clear, I've got the ice dragon distracted, go now!"   

[Oscirus]

yea that wasn't a go that was a FUCK! Because Viserion had him pinned down. Almost giving up because there was no possible way he was getting to Bran in time.

[proserpina65]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I don't really buy that.  By that theory, the Hand of the King/Queen could never have a family, as it could create conflicts.

If Sansa is a loyal subject to Queen Daenerys there should be no conflict of interest.  Besides that, it seem like it might be time for Tyrion to retire as Hand, though it would not be necessary to prevent conflict, as long as Sansa is loyal.   

There is no reason to believe Daenerys plans to oppress the North and even if she did try, Tyrion couldn't stop her, and most of the North, not just Sansa would likely rebel.  

I think what Sansa was really saying is it would never work because Tyrion serves a Queen who claims the North as part of her territory and Sansa is a Northern Nationalist, who does not really recognize Daenerys as her Queen.  Thus, she refers to her as "The Dragon Queen", not "the Queen", "Queen Daenerys" or "Our Queen:."

I don't think she is necessarily planning a rebellion, but her heart is in rebellion and I think she is open to the option.   

I could see not only Tyrion but  Jon and possibly Arya having to choose between Daenerys and Sansa if Sansa doesn't change her attitude.  

Sansa does not believe the North should be part of Dany's kingdom.  So yes, from her point of view, Tyrion being Dany's hand would indeed create a conflict of interest.

[Oscirus]

Also it just occurred to me that in order for the plan to have worked under best case scenario, a lot of people would have had to die.  

[proserpina65]

36 minutes ago, terrymct said:

I watched the clip embedded in that article a couple of times.  When was he supposed to have seen her?  There's no flash of recognition.  He's behind the rock looking pained, then stands and turns to the ice dragon.  I hope he was helping Arya, but I saw it more as Jon having had enough and just standing up to end it one way or another.

I tried watching it on my computer monitor, but it's too small for a good picture, even with the brightness turned all the way up.

[MrsR]

That article is complete bs. 

[MadameKillerB]

3 minutes ago, MrsR said:

That article is complete bs. 

Yeah, I think this theory is wishful fanwanking, tbh.

[sistermagpie]

19 minutes ago, Drogo said:

If Jon saw Arya unhindered behind Viserion, his screaming "GO!" would be telling her "Forget about me and this dragon, get to the tree/Bran!"

15 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think Jon might have realized that Arya was trying to get to Bran and the NK and was telling her, "The coast is clear, I've got the ice dragon distracted, go now!"   

Even if this was happening--and there's absolutely no moment where Jon sees anybody and gets an idea to yell to them or about them--it's making up another whole scene that isn't onscreen where supposed to imagine Arya worried about Jon or the ice dragon. 

Jon has nothing to do with what happens in the Godswood. He has no idea anything is happening there besides the NK killing Bran.

[QuinnM]

7 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Even if this was happening--and there's absolutely no moment where Jon sees anybody and gets an idea to yell to them or about them--it's making up another whole scene that isn't onscreen where supposed to imagine Arya worried about Jon or the ice dragon. 

Jon has nothing to do with what happens in the Godswood. He has no idea anything is happening there besides the NK killing Bran.

This could go either way.  But the editing suggests that Jon’s final confrontation was deliberate in that moment.  The shot of Jon standing up and screaming, quick to the shot of the WW hair fluttering, quick to the TNK suddenly turning to catch Arya.  The plan could of have been everyone try everything.  But the editing was Bran to Jon to Arya, as if they were all connected.  If this is the case there should be a reveal.

[sistermagpie]

Just now, QuinnM said:

This could go either way.  But the editing suggests that Jon’s final confrontation was deliberate in that moment.  The shot of Jon standing up and screaming, quick to the shot of the WW hair fluttering, quick to the TNK suddenly turning to catch Arya.  The plan could of have been everyone try everything.  But the editing was Bran to Jon to Arya, as if they were all connected.  If this is the case there should be a reveal.

I think there would have to be a reveal for this to exist and there was none. (No point saying it next week.) There's plenty of reason to go from Bran to Jon to Arya without Jon having to cheer Arya, who doesn't need anybody encouraging her, on. Jon is the guy who's supposed to be getting to Bran, so the cut to him says that Bran is unprotected and they're connected because Bran is the person Jon can't get to. 

When the dragon collapses there's no sign that Jon understands what happened. (Jon doesn't even have reason to think Arya would have a chance if she did get there.) 

[Oscirus]

5 minutes ago, QuinnM said:

This could go either way.  But the editing suggests that Jon’s final confrontation was deliberate in that moment.  The shot of Jon standing up and screaming, quick to the shot of the WW hair fluttering, quick to the TNK suddenly turning to catch Arya.  The plan could of have been everyone try everything.  But the editing was Bran to Jon to Arya, as if they were all connected.  If this is the case there should be a reveal.

editing shows Jon was the red herring, not the hero. We keep expecting Jon to get past the dragon, but he can't, everybody else seems to be accounted for, who's saving Bran?  Arya shows up and the rest is history

[markx]

On 4/30/2019 at 2:16 AM, Quickbeam said:

I am someone who really struggled to follow the show because of the darkness. I watched it again today on my iPad and wow, what a difference. I was far better able to distinguish the characters. For instance when Lyanna was killed I was confused because the scene right before that was Arya. I wasn’t sure who was who. It was far more clear to me on rewatching. However when I go to my DVR, it is still as hard to see as before, even if I stand right at the TV. 

Phones, tablets, laptops allow higher brightness due to outdoor use, though it looked great on my LG TV as well as my Surface.

[Macbeth]

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Thanks for posting that. Jon does deserve credit, but the show runners also deserve some demerits.

Viewers shouldn't have to analyze a scene like the Zapruder film to figure out what was going on.  I can hear Jon yelling "Go" but even now I have no idea who he's yelling it at since I can only see the Viserion and Jon. Moreover, I had no idea they were anywhere near the Godswood.

I agree.  They were so intent not to reveal that it was Arya doing the killing they screwed up the story.  Jon is clearly yelling go.  Why would he be screaming it? And to whom?  

Jon's contribution to this battle now makes sense to me.  He would never give up.  And getting up and yelling at a dragon just so the dragon could kill him - made absolutely no sense to me.  But Jon sacrificing himself so that another could do the killing does.  It was a Hail Mary pass.

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, JonasArm said:

The plan was to use Bran to lure the NK next to the big tree and kill him there.

It is pretty clear there was no consensus plan. Just Bran pulling strings. That was what he told Jon so Jon would be a distraction so Arya would get by. Bran probably knew Jon would survive. It is pretty clear that what happened was known to Bran in every detail. 

I found the exchange he had with Theon creepy. It was not unkind but Bran didn’t feel it and it manipulated theon to his death.  Ery creepy.

I watched it again on my phone. Much easier to see. 

Edited May 1, 2019 by Affogato

[Brn2bwild]

6 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Unless Jon's hypothetical shield was made out of Dany's hair, which, like Dany, can claim to be The Unburnt, I don't know what shield would have stood up to the dragonfire that destroyed a huge section of The Wall

Well fire melts ice (even magical ice), but certain metal is harder to burn.  At the very least, having basic battle implements like a shield might have given Jon crucial seconds of time.

[sistermagpie]

24 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

I agree.  They were so intent not to reveal that it was Arya doing the killing they screwed up the story.  Jon is clearly yelling go.  Why would he be screaming it? And to whom?  

Jon's contribution to this battle now makes sense to me.  He would never give up.  And getting up and yelling at a dragon just so the dragon could kill him - made absolutely no sense to me.  But Jon sacrificing himself so that another could do the killing does.  It was a Hail Mary pass.

He's not clearly yelling go. He's also not sacrificing himself  since the dragon isn't going for or spotting Arya before Jon yells at him. It's guarding Jon which was probably its order. Jon makes the decision to get up and try again just like before, the dragon is still right there so he can't evem try to sneal by, he gets angry and yells and the dragon yells back. He yells without seeing anything but the dragon blocking his way. 

Nothing in the scene shows him getting any ideas for anything but what he was already trying to do. He's yelling at the thing out of frustration not distracting it. No need to yell to do that. Jon's actions already make sense as a man blocked and helpless.

[Kate47]

IMO the theory about Jon yelling to Arya is due to show watchers who really wanted him to have a direct hand in the killing of the Night King. Unless he straight up says that this was the case in the next ep, I'm gonna say it's grasping at straws.

Jon had plenty of heroics, and the emotional impact of the scene was its hopelessness. He doesn't have to be the one to deal the killing blow.  

Edited May 1, 2019 by Kate47

[AnnaL]

6 hours ago, Drogo said:

Exactly.

Saving Jon's ass who was in a mission of her making. After having Jon in Dragonstone for months while he refused to bend the knee, she finally relented to try the option of convincing Cersei. She herself admitted at the dragon pit that she should have listened to Jon since the beginning. Instead they wasted very valuable time because she wanted him to bend the knee before she even considered helping him. 

She and Tyrion asked Jon to get a WW so they could convince Cersei to have a truce and send soldiers North. All Daenerys needed to do was ask Olenna and Ellaria (who were her allies) about Cersei and they both would have told her what Cersei is and how she wouldn't help at all. They both know Cersei. 

The mission was requested by Tyrion and Daenerys so if they lost a dragon it is on them first and foremost. The stupid mission cost them a dragon and it was the single act that made the NK even more powerful because it allowed the WW to cross the wall. 

She ordered the mission. It was her decision to send them there. The NK got an ice dragon as a result. 

Edited May 1, 2019 by AnnaL

[AnnaL]

4 hours ago, screamin said:

Is it, though? I mean, is it an objectively disrespectful term that everyone there would recognize as such? The Lannisters call themselves lions and take it as a compliment when identified so by others, the Starks call themselves wolves without a problem; is it a given that identifying a Targaryen as a dragon queen is supposed to be intrinsically insulting?

Robb was known as the young wold, Jon as the white wolf,  I don't think anybody has gotten offended about it. 

[seawind]

28 minutes ago, AnnaL said:

Robb was known as the young wold, Jon as the white wolf,  I don't think anybody has gotten offended about it. 

True, but the Starks didn't invade and terrorize Westeros with wolves like the Targaryens did with dragons.  #westerosremembers

[Growsonwalls]

I think Sansa is severely overestimating how much Dany cares about Tyrion. I actually don;t think Dany gives a shit about Tyrion. Her "real" hand will always be Sir Jorah. If Tyrion had died in battle I think Dany would have been sad but she wouldn't have collapsed in a crumple of tears and had to be comforted by her dragons.

[catrice2]

Jorah and Lyanna!!!  I'm still bitter!

[MarySNJ]

4 hours ago, MadameKillerB said:

Has this been confirmed: Jon screaming Go, Go which implies he and Arya and Bran had a plan.

I don't see how that matches with the interaction b/t Melisandre and Arya. It was as if Arya just realized what she had to do. It didn't seem like she'd planned it beforehand with Jon. 

Not necessarily. At that point most of their plans had failed and they were winging it. If Jon was hemmed in by Viserion and saw that Arya was in a place to get by, provided he could keep the dragon distracted, that could have been spur of the moment action. Perhaps if he hadn’t distracted Viserion, Arya wouldn’t have gotten there in time. 

[MissLucas]

It's stated in the Game Revealed clip that Viserion couldn't really see at that point because his face was half torn off. Of course he's a magical creature so who knows. Or maybe dragons also having an amazing sense of smell and he was able to detect Jon's scent (Axe and yogurt according to the Onion king) across the mayhem.

Edited May 2, 2019 by MissLucas

[GraceK]

I wish someone in Winterfell would comment on the fact that Jon Snow was riding a dragon. And using it to breathe fire like it was no big deal. I mean really. You would think Sansa or Arya watching in amazement would be like dafauq?????? Is that Jon???” 🤣 LoL no one has even mentioned it!!!

Tyrion . Varys and Davos didn’t think it was weird last episode?

Edited May 2, 2019 by GraceK

[FormerMod-a1]

Does anyone in Winterfell know Arya can change faces?  They know how deadly she is, if not before this battle, they know now, but I wonder about the faces.  Of course, Bran probably knows. 😛 

[izabella]

Just now, aquarian1 said:

Does anyone in Winterfell know Arya can change faces?  They know how deadly she is, if not before this battle, they know now, but I wonder about the faces.  Of course, Bran probably knows. 😛 

Sansa also knows.  She found the faces in Arya's suitcase in Season 7 and asked Arya WTF?

[VCRTracking]

[FormerMod-a1]

5 minutes ago, izabella said:

Sansa also knows.  She found the faces in Arya's suitcase in Season 7 and asked Arya WTF?

That's right!  So Sansa at least knows Arya has faces at hand.

[Oscirus]

9 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I wish someone in Winterfell would comment on the fact that Jon Snow was riding a dragon. And using it to breathe fire like it was no big deal. I mean really. You would think Sansa or Arya watching in amazement would be like dafauq?????? Is that Jon???” 🤣 LoL no one has even mentioned it!!!

Tyrion . Varys and Davos didn’t think it was weird last episode?

Dany just randomly expected him to be able to do it without knowing his bloodline. I guess only targaryeans/ the dragon's owners being able to ride dragons is a book only fact now.

[joliefaire]

42 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I wish someone in Winterfell would comment on the fact that Jon Snow was riding a dragon. And using it to breathe fire like it was no big deal. I mean really. You would think Sansa or Arya watching in amazement would be like dafauq?????? Is that Jon???” 🤣 LoL no one has even mentioned it!!!

Tyrion . Varys and Davos didn’t think it was weird last episode?

Too true!  Tyrion especially knows full well that only someone with Targ blood can ride a dragon.  My guess is now that all the frenzy of battle is over, he will confront Jon with the 'I know who you really are' reveal.  Should be interesting!

[joliefaire]

Interesting!  The Night King actor actually played 14 different parts throughout the GoT saga.  Here's he talks about his smirk when Dany trys to dracarys him to death.

https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/game-of-thrones-night-king-story-behind-that-smirk

[Quickbeam]

1 hour ago, catrice2 said:

Jorah and Lyanna!!!  I'm still bitter!

Me too. It really bothers me. What’s to become of Bear Island? This has become the primary focus of my work day. 🤨

Edited May 2, 2019 by Quickbeam

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I think Sansa is severely overestimating how much Dany cares about Tyrion. I actually don;t think Dany gives a shit about Tyrion. Her "real" hand will always be Sir Jorah. If Tyrion had died in battle I think Dany would have been sad but she wouldn't have collapsed in a crumple of tears and had to be comforted by her dragons.

But Sansa wasn't talking about Dany's feelings for Tyrion, but Tyrion's for Dany--and not even primarily personal ones. Dany doesn't need to care deeply about Tyrion to want him to support her. It's the politics that would become a problem, not the two women as people.

2 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

Not necessarily. At that point most of their plans had failed and they were winging it. If Jon was hemmed in by Viserion and saw that Arya was in a place to get by, provided he could keep the dragon distracted, that could have been spur of the moment action. Perhaps if he hadn’t distracted Viserion, Arya wouldn’t have gotten there in time. 

The dragon is focused on Jon the whole time, even when he's hiding behind the bit of wall. Jon looks up behind him and sees the dragon face looking down at him. He stands up and looks up at the same dragon face, into which he yells. The dragon's focus never leaves Jon and Jon's focus never leaves the dragon. There's no point where Jon or the dragon could be seeing or reacting to Arya. No need to do anything to distract the dragon.

Edited May 2, 2019 by sistermagpie

[Coxfires]

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

Those who are disappointed are those that made the NK be more than what he was, i.e. the embodiement of Death. They wanted ulterior motives I think and only got a banal Evil Villain who died taking his sweet time marching to Bran. In the end I suppose he was just too much of a simple "Bad guy".

I can understand the disappointment but since I never cared for the WW and NK because human complexity is far more intersting to me (just a personal preference, no judgement here), I am glad we are done with it. As for saying he went easily,  that is only because few named characters from S1 died beyond Theon and Jorah, but in the facts, the Death toll is huge. It was not easy by any means. 

But as we didn't get the usual rehashed Trope "CHOSEN ONE battling One vs One against the Big Baddie with epic music and great scenery" a la Harry Potter / Luke Skywalker etc, etc... some shortcut it as easy. Maybe they should have ended ep3 sooner and finish the Battle in ep4, but IMO 1h30 of Battle is enough, back to humans being flawed and complex,  Thank you.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Coxfires

[DarkRaichu]

I rewatched the dragon vs Jon scene several times from the time the dragon landed on the wall to when Arya stabbed NK.  I did not see at any moment how Jon could have seen Arya anywhere close to the dragon.  Also, with my headphones on, Jon sounded like yelling "oooo" not "go" to the dragon

It's Arya's kill and Jon was saved by plot armor once again..

On another note, why didn't Theon pick up the arrows from the dead bodies around him?? There was a bow right by Bran's wheelchair's wheel. Then he could have shot NK instead... 😛

[Growsonwalls]

2 hours ago, GraceK said:

I wish someone in Winterfell would comment on the fact that Jon Snow was riding a dragon. And using it to breathe fire like it was no big deal. I mean really. You would think Sansa or Arya watching in amazement would be like dafauq?????? Is that Jon???” 🤣 LoL no one has even mentioned it!!!

Tyrion . Varys and Davos didn’t think it was weird last episode?

Isn't it to show that he's really a Targaryen as much as a Stark? He's as much Aunt Dany as Uncle Ned.

[MrWhyt]

2 hours ago, joliefaire said:

Too true!  Tyrion especially knows full well that only someone with Targ blood can ride a dragon.  My guess is now that all the frenzy of battle is over, he will confront Jon with the 'I know who you really are' reveal.  Should be interesting!

does he know this or is it just the common thinking? is it a fact or an assumption?

[Lemuria]

I also posted this in the other Long Night thread (it mentioned Martin and the books but I don't remember anything spoilery about it):

I have to admit, I got a bit of a kick out of this rant about the NK's end: The WORST ending for Game of Thrones!

2 hours ago, GraceK said:

I wish someone in Winterfell would comment on the fact that Jon Snow was riding a dragon. And using it to breathe fire like it was no big deal. I mean really. You would think Sansa or Arya watching in amazement would be like dafauq?????? Is that Jon???” 🤣 LoL no one has even mentioned it!!!

Tyrion . Varys and Davos didn’t think it was weird last episode?

Yeah, I've been scratching my head about the singular lack of reaction to that, as well.  

Edited May 2, 2019 by Lemuria
Link didn't post

[steelyis]

17 hours ago, seawind said:

Burning a child alive is beyond monstrous, regardless of whether your Lord told you to do it or not, regardless of whether it helped or not). Sure, it's great that Melisandre showed up at the 11th hour and helped save lives. But that doesn't redeem her in my book, and I don't think it did in Davos's, either. 

Melisandre redeemed?

No.

Nowhere in my post did I say Melisandre was redeemed.

Theon was redeemed. The Hound is redeemed. Jon Snow is redeemed. Each of them mourned and regretted their roles in the death of children and tried to make amends. I don't think Melisandre truly regretted her part in Shireen's murder, or the murders of the other people she had Stannis burned alive for the Lord of Light.

I think her only regret was backing the wrong horse, i.e. Stannis.

Look at her face when Davos confronts her about Shireen's murder; she looks embarrassed, not ashamed.

Here's the thing; I never forgave her for encouraging Stannis to murder Shireen. However, I understood her motivations; she honestly believed sacrifices had to be made to win the war against the Dead. I hate how she went about it, but I respect that she didn't do it to wear a crown or for personal gain. She did the horrible things she she did because she believed they were required to ensure the future of humanity.

Despite all the fucked up shit she did I have to believe saving the world earned Melisandre not redemption but at least the dignity of not being killed by one of the people she worked so long and hard to save.

Edited May 2, 2019 by steelyis

[BitterApple]

1 hour ago, DarkRaichu said:

On another note, why didn't Theon pick up the arrows from the dead bodies around him?? There was a bow right by Bran's wheelchair's wheel. Then he could have shot NK instead... 😛

Or if all-seeing Bran knew Arya was on her way, maybe tell Theon to hold off on that charge for a minute...

Edited May 2, 2019 by BitterApple

[VCRTracking]

[dramachick]

A fitting tribute from Leslie Jones. 👏 Rest in power, Lyanna Mormont.

[Lady S.]

2 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Or if all-seeing Bran knew Arya was on her way, 

I don't see why we're assuming that just because he gave her the knife.

I really don't think Sansa was actually considering the political implications of taking her first husband back. Tyrion was joking when he said maybe they should have stayed married and she made a jokey reply while letting him know she still hasn't accepted his Queen. (She knows how unhappy Dany was with Tyrion's service when last they spoke and that Tyrion would probably give up the job if she really wanted him to stay with her at Winterfell. It's not really a Ned/Robert s1 situation.) She probably would have felt more warmly about her reunion with Tyrion though, if he hadn't arrived with a Queen she didn't want and delusions of aid from Cersei, which I think is what she was really getting at, more than answered a proposal he hadn't seriously made.

[Clanstarling]

On 4/30/2019 at 6:36 AM, Bryce Lynch said:

On 4/30/2019 at 6:23 AM, Clanstarling said:

It was my take that Davos did indeed hold Stannis accountable, finally, when he burned Shireen, but it's a blur at this point.

Stannis was already dead when Davos found Shireen's  pyre and the burnt stag toy he made for her.  I guess we will never know, but I think Davos would have killed Stannis, if Brienne had not already done her duty.   

I'd forgotten the order of events, thank you for refreshing my memory. I agree that he would have killed Stannis (ie holding him accountable) if he'd still been alive.

[Bali]

12 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Dany just randomly expected him to be able to do it without knowing his bloodline. I guess only targaryeans/ the dragon's owners being able to ride dragons is a book only fact now.

To Dany, it isn't really about being her blood line though, it is that she sensed the dragon in Jon. She saw him touching them. She saw them being gentle with her babies and said, Hey wanna ride?

[Uncle JUICE]

12 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

Does anyone in Winterfell know Arya can change faces?  They know how deadly she is, if not before this battle, they know now, but I wonder about the faces.  Of course, Bran probably knows. 😛 

Sansa knows. She found the face bag. That has to come back, otherwise why bring it up.