S03.E11: Songbird Road, Part One

[Whimsy]

14 hours ago, mtlchick said:

Way better than last week, but except Rebecca claiming she didn't know about Nicky only to find out she did because...what, old wounds?  About someone she never met? 

Rebecca didn't know. I was confused for a millisecond when she said to Miguel "They found him" because I thought she was just telling Miguel that they found OUT not that they physically found him and then texted that they physically found him.  

 

14 hours ago, balmz said:

i found the nicky secret really anticlimatic, i thought that nicky was going to be horribly scarred or disfigured in an accident and he was too ashamed to see jack or anyone again, i recall in an old ann landers book that happened with this one couple in ww2, also i thought maybe alternatively nicky was gay or bi and jack found out and was homophobic and disowned him which would have been dark but considering it was the 70's understandable but still unacceptable

 

45 minutes ago, BonnieD said:

I was almost positive that Nicky went AWOL and was living the life of a deserter so knowledge of his whereabouts or existence would put the family at risk of breaking the law. Something along those lines anyway. It would certainly explain not telling the family about him, letting them think he died in Vietnam. Maybe that's yet to come, but probably not.

I agree.  It was anticlimatic.  I totally thought what @BonnieD said about Nicky being AWOL, but then realized that couldn't be the case when they showed a package with his name because he would've most likely used a fake name.  I don't think that any more at all.  I think he just was living a hermit lifestyle due to his guilt, addiction, etc. 

[DoubleUTeeEff]

I hated everything about last episode, but this episode was quite good. Which is ironic because the central plot is about an innocent child's death and it was incredibly difficult to watch. I actually want to go on that boat and throw the boy off of it before the grenade explodes and we're talking about a fictional story.

I was very scared at the end that Nicky was going to have committed suicide so I was incredibly relieved to see he was still alive. I think Griffin Dunne did a great job with his character and I am actually looking forward to spending more time with him. Maybe he just hasn't had time to annoy me as much as the other characters have though, ha, ha.

Randall did not annoy me at all this episode. He was actually supportive of both his wife and his brother so that was nice. Kate only annoyed me for a moment when she started whining that they should leave after they had just gotten to Nicky's trailer. I didn't mind that she told Nicky they weren't leaving. I think Nicky needed a little push and actually did want to tell his story. He never got to tell it to Jack, after all. He was probably relieved to tell it to Jack's children. Plus I think Kate was trying to help get closure for Kevin. I think if Nicky had asked a second time for them to leave, they would have. In fact, at the end after he told his story, that is exactly what happened. And yes, they went back but thank goodness they did.

[Blakeston]

This episode made me think about my grandfather.

My grandfather was a kind, patient, caring man. At his funeral, lots of people came out of the woodwork to say that he was one of the nicest people they'd ever met. My grandmother (his second wife) was very sickly for forty years, and he took incredible care of her every step of the way.

But he had some skeletons in his closet, for sure. His first wife had been emotionally abusive and adulterous - and when he first found out about the adultery, he punched her in the jaw, and she had to go to the emergency room. He was sentenced to probation, and they got a divorce.

My grandfather never had contact with her again. He also completely washed his hands of their son, who was around 10 years old at the time. Their son was a sweet kid, who had done absolutely nothing wrong. But my grandfather couldn't bear to be around him, because his son was a reminder of the pain of his marriage, and the guilt he carried with him from the assault.

No one who knew him has ever been able to reconcile how the wonderful man they knew could do something so hurtful to an innocent child. And I imagine Jack's family will feel the same way about Jack's abandonment of Nicky (even though Nicky was far from an innocent child).

My point is, people will go to enormous lengths to protect themselves from reminders of trauma. They'll do things that seem unconscionable, and are wildly inconsistent with their overall personalities.

I don't think Jack was sitting in judgement of Nicky. And I don't think he was proclaiming that Nicky was undeserving of love or acknowledgement. He just didn't have the strength to acknowledge Nicky, period. Nicky wasn't just a reminder that Jack's decisions ultimately led to a child's death; he was a reminder of all of the horror that Jack experienced in Vietnam. And he felt that he had to choose between being a good husband and father, and dealing with those reminders.

[Seelouis]

1 hour ago, marceline said:

 

Back when Rebecca was talking to Tess about coming out, she mentioned keeping some destructive secrets. I assumed she was talking about keeping William from Randall but now we know that she knew Nicky was alive. It makes me wonder what else Rebecca might be sitting on.

Rebecca didn’t know Nicky was alive until now.  Jack told her he had gone to see someone he was close to in the war, but never told her it was his brother.  Rebecca is just now learning that Jack kept this secret from her. 

[momma2rnr]

14 hours ago, CleoCaesar said:

So in the dozens of postcards Nicky sent Jack, he couldn't have written "What happened to the kid was a total accident. I tried to warn him but it happened too fast. It's haunted me for years." on ANY of them?

I knew the show wouldn't have the balls to have Nicky do something truly wrong. Really cowardly writing. Having his big sin be an accident is weak tea. If he'd committed treason or a war crime, now that would take skill to write and be affecting.

So now Nicky is moving in. Yawn. It's like William: The Sequel. Like, mix it up, writers!

This seems like something that required a face to face... also, he was likely thinking that a face to face meeting was going to be the beginning of mending their relationship.

I'm not sure how killing a kid isn't 'truly' wrong. I mean, he took a CHILD onto a boat with grenades... any adult would know better than that, especially a child who doesn't speak your language. It may not have been treason or a war crime, but for Jack, it seemed like the last straw in a growing pile.

[MsChicklet]

This episode brought home the tragedy of Vietnam in the form of Jack and Nicky. Jack had his own trauma -- the burdens of leadership, the loss and wounding of friends, the day-to-day misery of death and destruction. On top of that, he'd taken on the monumental task to save the sweet kid brother he remembered. The tragedy is that Jack was too late. The sweet kid Jack fought to protect and save never had a chance once sent into the meat grinder of Vietnam. And the one moment that sweetness came back -- his playful, well-intentioned, irresponsible, goddamned stupid fishing trip -- destroyed everything.

It broke not only Nicky, but Jack. He had seen and heard his brother express malice towards the locals. He'd seen Nicky strung out. And now he was faced with his brother committing an atrocity. He couldn't be Superman to Nicky's Clark Kent anymore. He had to pick up his pieces and take care of his men through more fighting, more death, more destruction, more trauma. Then he went home to his mother's heartbreak, and his father's cruel, bitter taunts about how he'd failed to save Nicky. His innate goodness couldn't save him from his struggles, guilt and trauma. At his lowest, when he's considering throwing everything away for a robbery, along comes Rebecca. He felt like he'd been given a lifeline out of the pain and shame that was his life, and he grabbed it. He thought he could leave everything behind, but spent the rest of his life trying and failing to do so. It was why he was so dogged and determined to be the best dad and husband, to do his best to be better than his own father. It was why he was such a devoted friend to Miguel, because he could give the comfort and support to Miguel he could no longer give to Nicky.

Now this truth about Jack is out. And Rebecca has to face the glaring imperfections in their relationship in spite of their devoted, passionate love for each other. She lied and kept William secret. He lied and kept Nicky secret. They could not share their deepest pain -- Rebecca's fear of losing Randall, Jack's anguish over Nicky and Vietnam -- with each other.

Even with the darkness, there is still levity. Randall's pep talk to Beth. Randall and Kevin reverting to kids together on the couch, with Kevin bouncy excited over a road trip and Randall doing his "mind blown" thing and Rebecca's over on the side realizing once again they'll never fully grow up.

Tess may want to look into an after-school gig at Psychic Friends Network, just saying:

Quote

Annie: Do you think dad will bring Nikky home like he brought grandpa William? 
Rebecca: No, I don't think so honey. 
Tess: I mean, he sure likes bringing people home though, just saying. 

Edited January 23, 2019 by MsChicklet

[momma2rnr]

10 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

My point is, people will go to enormous lengths to protect themselves from reminders of trauma. They'll do things that seem unconscionable, and are wildly inconsistent with their overall personalities.

I don't think Jack was sitting in judgement of Nicky. And I don't think he was proclaiming that Nicky was undeserving of love or acknowledgement. He just didn't have the strength to acknowledge Nicky, period. Nicky wasn't just a reminder that Jack's decisions ultimately led to a child's death; he was a reminder of all of the horror that Jack experienced in Vietnam. And he felt that he had to choose between being a good husband and father, and dealing with those reminders.

I completely agree. Trauma does things to a person... and Nicky was a reminder of not only what happened in Vietnam, but what had happened throughout their childhood. On some level, I am sure Jack thought that Nicky's attempts at communication were a way to get back into his life and therefore the cycle of cleaning up after Nicky would begin all over again. But Jack had a family, a good job, a good life as he said, and it's hard to have a good life if you're constantly dealing with someone else's baggage and mistakes, plus all of the baggage it would bring up for Jack. He had to choose, as Nicky said, his life BEFORE the war and his life AFTER the war.

[kendi]

What surprised me about the Big Three meeting their father's brother, was that nobody got teary-eyed. I lost my father at the age of 9 and he is also "St Jack"-ed. I think seeing anybody resembling my father or related to him would fill my eyes with tears. I get that Uncle Nicky is estranged, but still...

[nexxie]

:(

[Ohiopirate02]

5 minutes ago, momma2rnr said:

I completely agree. Trauma does things to a person... and Nicky was a reminder of not only what happened in Vietnam, but what had happened throughout their childhood. On some level, I am sure Jack thought that Nicky's attempts at communication were a way to get back into his life and therefore the cycle of cleaning up after Nicky would begin all over again. But Jack had a family, a good job, a good life as he said, and it's hard to have a good life if you're constantly dealing with someone else's baggage and mistakes, plus all of the baggage it would bring up for Jack. He had to choose, as Nicky said, his life BEFORE the war and his life AFTER the war.

I think that Nicky's postcards had 2 different purposes.  Nicky needed to tell Jack that what happened was an accident and he needed to know that Jack was alright even if he was not.  When he asked Jack if he had ruined his life I almost lost it.  I don't think that Nicky was looking to get back into Jack's life with the postcards.  He understood how Jack's mind worked.  He was able to continue to live his life for years after this encounter with Jack.  What almost broke him was the realization that he was never going to get the opportunity to speak his piece to Jack.  

[ClareWalks]

If we learned nothing else in this episode, we learned this: when you take children out fishing with hand grenades and accidentally drop a pulled-pin grenade into the hull of your boat and have 5 seconds to get away and there's a language barrier, always make sure you tackle the child into the lake and push him to safety! Don't just say "hey kid, get out of the boat! ...ah, fuck it! [dives out solo]"

[ShadowFacts]

16 minutes ago, MsChicklet said:

This episode brought home the tragedy of Vietnam in the form of Jack and Nicky. Jack had his own trauma -- the burdens of leadership, the loss and wounding of friends, the day-to-day misery of death and destruction. On top of that, he'd taken on the monumental task to save the sweet kid brother he remembered. The tragedy is that Jack was too late. The sweet kid Jack fought to protect and save never had a chance once sent into the meat grinder of Vietnam. And the one moment that sweetness came back -- his playful, well-intentioned, irresponsible, goddamned stupid fishing trip -- destroyed everything.

Spot on.  I remember thinking, back when Jack was trying to walk Nicky back from despising and mistrusting the Vietnamese villagers, oh no, I hope Nicky doesn't ultimately follow his advice and that ends up being how there's a tragedy of some sort.   And that's what happened.  What a horrible confluence of events and interactions and failures;  there should have been no way for a soldier who was known to be extremely strung out to get near ammunition, which is probably something else Jack had to block.

[TwoGrayTabbies]

I’m not ready to say this series has been redeemed for me, but this episode was good.  It dealt with really awful issues without getting mawkish.  And there was no awesome-Pearson-hero-saint content—quite the opposite.

My only complaint is that Kate was unnecessarily shoe-horned in.  There was no reason for her to travel that distance by plane and car during a high-risk pregnancy to spring a surprise visit on Nick.  The physical and emotional discomfort were substantial reasons against it.  And she really had nothing much to do.

[Driad]

Jack sounded as if his family was peachy before Vietnam. If he thought that, he was really repainting his past.

[jmonique]

Things come to me about This Is Us in pieces, hence the multiple posts. :) 

It's time for them to bring Kate home. I see no reason why she's still in L.A. I get that she wants to be a singer, but she's 38. She's about to become a mom. It's time for her to come home, so we can stop seeing these ridiculous time zone-defying cross-country jaunts that these characters just do NOT have the money to be able to realistically afford to take at a moment's notice. The narrative is so much better when they're all together.

[MsChicklet]

7 minutes ago, jmonique said:

It's time for them to bring Kate home. I see no reason why she's still in L.A. I get that she wants to be a singer, but she's 38. She's about to become a mom. It's time for her to come home, so we can stop seeing these ridiculous time zone-defying cross-country jaunts that these characters just do NOT have the money to be able to realistically afford to take at a moment's notice. The narrative is so much better when they're all together.

Agreed. It may come after the baby is born. Perhaps Toby cashes out of his tech company for an opportunity back east. He feels more at home with his in-laws than his own family, anyway. And we'd get more Beth/Toby/Miguel snarking over adult beverages. I'm still annoyed that we're not getting weekly text chain posts from TIU in addition to the aftershow. 

Edited January 23, 2019 by MsChicklet

[Booklady1017]

18 hours ago, ams1001 said:

Damn show actually made me cry a little.

Jack pissed me off, though, when he wouldn't let Nicky say what he needed to say.

Kate, too, with her "we're not going anywhere"...because, what, Nicky owes them something?

I'm glad they want to help him; please just don't move him into Randall's house...

I was sad too towards the end. I was frustrated with Jack too. I wish he gave Nicky a chance to speak. Sounds like typical Kate. I'm glad they want to help him too. But they probably will have to move him into Randall's home, didn't the girls expect their father to bring him home to live with them LOL?

But in all seriousness, I'm glad they are going to help Nicky.

18 hours ago, debraran said:

I wasn't surprised by what happened, I knew the boy would be part of it, but Jack's coldness for decades, horrible. He never gave him a chance, it's not believable to me. No letter explaining it, Jack ignores his postcards begging him? I thought Nicky was trying to commit suicide with the number of drugs he took beforehand, before the boy came, but that was his choice, his addiction. For Jack to think that gentle Nicky would murder a little boy, not buying it. Not buying he kept his family from him like he was a pedophile. I hope he gets cleaned up and has some years with the overbearing Pearson's, but this story had a missing component. Jack was as cold as his dad and totally unreasonable.

Kate pissed me off with her stubbornness and reasons but let's give her "hormones" this time. ;)

It didn't make sense that Jack would act like that. I was disappointed.

18 hours ago, mtlchick said:

Way better than last week, but except Rebecca claiming she didn't know about Nicky only to find out she did because...what, old wounds?  About someone she never met? 

One of the show's strengths is using parallel story lines between Jack and his kids and I thought this was one of the better ones.  I did crack up at the mention that the Pearsons have a tendency to pick up strays.

Finally...yeesh.  That's one way to catch fish but of course that meant the last of Nicky's innocence literally exploded in front of him.  No wonder he's so messed up. 

That was a funny line about the Pearsons picking up strays.

18 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

That was actually a better episode than I thought it would be. It moved quicker than I thought. 

I wish we got more about Rebecca's feelings but at least she understands that Jack kept a lot from her, after all. 

Honestly, I felt a lot for Kevin with regards to finding Nicky and I actually liked Randall realizing that he had to go for Kevin. As much as I think this just adds another tick to the Randall/Beth problems (him going off instead of being there for her when she needs it), this time, it was actually for a mostly selfless reason, which reminds me of season 1 Randall. 

I will laugh if Nicky moves into Randall's house. I love how bitter Tess still is about that. 

I have a feeling next episode will explore Rebecca's feelings on all that. Even though Randall has issues, I still think he is worlds better than Kate. Kevin though has improved greatly in my opinion though.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Booklady1017

[Booklady1017]

18 hours ago, bettername2come said:

If he moves in with anyone, I say Rebecca and Miguel. They can all talk about how great Jack was while also being completely frustrating.

Good casting on old Nick. Took me a second to realize that wasn't age makeup.

With a kid who doesn't speak English to explain why the thing's so freaking dangerous! 

I was trying to figure out too if it was makeup on old Nick but I thought it wasn't. I thought with all the others, they'd use the same actor with makeup. But good casting though.

18 hours ago, debraran said:

That was part of it and Nicky was very high. He took tons of pills. I'm sure it made him silly and slow.

Angry, yes, for Jack to write him off, no. What if one of his kids hit someone by accident with his car, drunk or sober. Would he stop talking to them? Did he want forgiveness for his alcoholism? What a hard heart.

It didn't fit with what we knew about Jack. I could understand him being mad for him a bit, but I would have though when Nicky reached out to him in 92, he would have dropped his grudge with his brother.

17 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I was really proud of Kevin this week.  He has shown the most character growth of all the Big 3.  I liked that he did what Jack should have done.  I am looking forward to what the writers have in store for Nicky and Kevin.

Yes the parallel with the scene at the convenience store where Jack hesitated on turning left and going back or going right and going home and Kevin in the same position, making the decision to go back. That was powerful.

[Booklady1017]

17 hours ago, chitowngirl said:

Not if Nick moves in with Kevin!! Then it’s totally different!! Not the same at all!!! 😁

It would be a better twist on the same issue if he moved in with Kevin instead. 

17 hours ago, chitowngirl said:

I love Miguel with the girls. There’s no baggage-He’s the only Grandpa they know.

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I really like Miguel. 

[CrystalBlue]

5 hours ago, Biggie B said:

Was he, though? I think he was very much an addict at the time of the accident. The show made a point of showing him rifling through a backpack, finding, and popping some pills. Even if that was a flashback, I don't think he was better at all - perhaps no worse, but not better. 

Nicky's time in Nam was spent being stoned out of his mind all the time.  As he told the Big Three, he was a medic and sampled his own wares.  I believe Nicky was stoned when he went out on the boat with the little boy.  Being high on drugs takes away your better judgment, for one thing.  Had he been a stone cold sober man he might have thought twice about playing with hand grenades with a kid in the boat with him.

[Biggie B]

1 minute ago, CrystalBlue said:

I believe Nicky was stoned when he went out on the boat with the little boy. 

I agree - I definitely think he was still stoned even though he'd just woken up. His laughter with the little boy was so artificial - that kind of laughter when you're tripping and everything is hilarious (not that I would know, *cough* *cough*). Everything he did on the boat - the sing-song-y voice, casually handling the grenades as if they were tennis balls, talking in English to a kid he knew had no idea what he was saying - was textbook stoned behavior. 

[chitowngirl]

If Jack had not gone to Vietnam for Nick, the whole incident would never have happened. Jack distancing himself from Nick might have been a way of distancing himself from any guilt he might have felt over that. Nick might have come home, dried out, and lived a better life.

[CrystalBlue]

3 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Random comments.  Continuity is not my friend.

Was it stupid to go fishing with grenades?  Yup.  But Nicky did not intend on having anyone die.   That doesn't make him any less responsible for the kid getting killed.    That said, I could see that kid going toes up a mile away.

I wasn't surprised that Jack wouldn't let Nicky explain what really happened.  I have known stubborn people like Jack, it is like trying to talk to a brick wall.  They very much do exist.  The best thing to do is move on from them, because they can't be reasoned with. 

When Nicky asked Kate and the others to leave and Kate refused, that is Kate's inner Jack (jerk) coming out.  She is just as  much of a pigheaded jerk as Jack.

If the "big 3" hadn't gone to see their uncle, I seriously doubt that he would have contemplated suicide later that evening.   Seeing him, immediately brought back his bad memories.  Adding in that they had told him that Jack had died, which was probably what pushed him over the edge.  The fact that they went back to see Nicky later that evening just relieved them from a tremendous amount of guilt.  I do think Nicky would have killed himself if they had not gone back to see him.

It would have been better for the series if they had gone back and Nicky had committed suicide.  That would definitely send a message to the "big 3" that they shouldn't be meddling in other people's lives.  Meddling has consequences.  More often then not those consequences aren't good. 

I don't think Nicky on his own would have ever found out his brother had died.  He did know that Jack was married and had three kids.  He knew that when Jack showed him their picture.

I agree with your thoughts, but the story isn't over yet.  Hopefully the Big 3's meddling into Nicky's life will result in wonderful things happening.  I don't want Nicky dead, suicide or otherwise.  But everything else you said, yes.  :)

[Perkie]

18 hours ago, balmz said:

I'm afraid i have to be on jack's side, when nicky dropped the grenade there was more then enough time for him to grab it and throw it into the lake rather then just yell at the kid in  a language he doesn't understand, also he could have just grabbed the kid as well when jumping

This is exactly what I thought.  Either grab the grenade and toss it over or grab the kid and toss him over.  Leaving the kid behind as he jumped in the water was all kinds of wrong.

Also, why did no one on shore hear the first grenade go off, the one that he used to kill the fish?  

[CrystalBlue]

58 minutes ago, jmonique said:

Things come to me about This Is Us in pieces, hence the multiple posts. :) 

It's time for them to bring Kate home. I see no reason why she's still in L.A. I get that she wants to be a singer, but she's 38. She's about to become a mom. It's time for her to come home, so we can stop seeing these ridiculous time zone-defying cross-country jaunts that these characters just do NOT have the money to be able to realistically afford to take at a moment's notice. The narrative is so much better when they're all together.

Yes, but Toby's job is in L.A.

[CrystalBlue]

33 minutes ago, Biggie B said:

I agree - I definitely think he was still stoned even though he'd just woken up. His laughter with the little boy was so artificial - that kind of laughter when you're tripping and everything is hilarious (not that I would know, *cough* *cough*). Everything he did on the boat - the sing-song-y voice, casually handling the grenades as if they were tennis balls, talking in English to a kid he knew had no idea what he was saying - was textbook stoned behavior. 

Exactly.

[slasherboy]

19 hours ago, Dreamboat Annie said:

Oh, poor Nicky.  I know what he did was wrong, but I won't judge - those were times we are thankfully not a part of.  

Some of us are absolutely a part of those times.  It was as bad as you would imagine.

 

17 hours ago, kissedbyarose said:

I could see how Kevin, being a former addict himself

Just to, respectfully, point out the correct wording.  Addicts are addicts for life.  Sometimes they're just not using, but if they tested the waters even once, they would once again be active addicts.  Same with the phrase, former alcoholic.  Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic.  Thank you for using the phrasing you did so I could bring this to peoples' attention.

[Booklady1017]

18 hours ago, Brinny said:

I was pretty apprehensive about where they were going with the Nicky is actually alive storyline, but after this episode, I'm sold. Honestly, the difference between this episode and the last (oh my GOD, the election crap) was like night and day. Legit the only good thing to come out of last week's episode was Zoe speaking for the audience about how much John Stamos is missed. That's it. 

So far, the stories that focus on the Big 3 as siblings seem to be the most engaging for me. The cast has such an easy, believable chemistry. 

Also, I've been super impressed with Michael Angarano as Nicky. I feel like most things I've seen him in, he was still a kid (Almost Famous, Will & Grace, probably other things I don't remember right now), and he's really grown into quite the actor. His little, "I've got Nesquik?" when Jack was about to leave was just the perfect amount of hopeful and heartbreakingly desperate. 

 

I would have rallied if Jack had disowned Nicky over his sexuality. I know there's the big joke about "Saint Jack" and he can do no wrong, but that would have been a huge disservice to the character. 

I knew the actor who played young Nicky looked familiar but not sure from where. 

[debraran]

I think if Nicky hadn't taken a huge handful of pills before the boy came over, he would have acted quickly, he panicked. You really can't judge someone's reactions under the influence. Look at the dumb frat members that let someone die in a panic, it's infuriating but an unclear mind isn't the best. He liked the little boy, he just froze a few seconds. And no one all around there saw anything. I don't believe that either. He blew up the grenade to get fish (something I've seen before) and no one heard that either? Please, they weren't that far off shore.

[Booklady1017]

18 hours ago, kissedbyarose said:

This was a great episode for Kevin. He's easily my favorite of the Big Three mostly because none of his storylines frustrate me. The parallels between Jack and Kevin were really well done and I could see how Kevin, being a former addict himself and also feeling left out, would have a lot of empathy (and sympathy) for Nicky. 

I have a few nitpicks with the writing like Kate hanging up the call and then just miraculously showing up at the door (unnecessary, she still could've said what she said to Nicky without the dramatics), then Nicky inviting them in then almost immediately kicking them out (clunky and only really served for Kate to say what she said then for the whole "you are Jack's kids.") BUT this happened within the first 15? 20? minutes of this show and after last week, I was ready to hate this episode too. However, this was miles better than last week. (Butch and Sundance hee!)

I agree with this and I think that's my problem with the writing on this show (does this show have new writers or has it always been this clunky and awkward and last week's awful episode opened my eyes?)  is afraid of really GOING there and making people do truly awful shit or they write these huge cliffhangers and can't (and don't) follow through. I'll reserve (some) judgment until I see how this plays out next week but I have a sister. She's not even that much younger than me. I feel like putting her in a chokehold some days and she freaking infuriates me on most days but I love her so I don't know if I would ever COMPLETELY write her off at least not for the reason we got on the show.  Maybe we wouldn't be close but telling everyone that she's dead? I don't know if Jack would either, I mean he still was in touch with his parents no? And he was an alcoholic so he's had to have done questionable things while under the influence.

I like Nicky though. Both actors playing him really did a great job BUT we still don't know jack-shit about Beth! (I mean, we got Zoe but that's not enough.) Did she even get a flashback episode or even a flashback scene? Come on show. Don't do me like this. 

 

I heard Beth's story is coming soon.  Goran Visnjic plays a significant role in her life. That's how I knew that.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Booklady1017

[debraran]

2 minutes ago, Booklady1017 said:

I heard Beth's story is coming soon.  Goran Visnjic plays a significant role in her life. That's how I knew that.

From ER? That will be nice and Phylicia Rashad, love it!!

I guess Milo wasn't thrilled with Jack either:

“I personally didn’t agree with it,” Ventimiglia told TheWrap. “I didn’t agree with Jack’s decision to cut his brother out. I imagine Jack needed time to get over it, but I think Jack was moving forward in his life. And what will be interesting to me is Jack’s life once he gets home [from the war]. ‘Cause, I mean, he enlisted in Vietnam to go find his brother, he finds his brother in the middle of a war — he finds his brother, tries to help his brother, and then his brother contributes to the unspeakable. So it’s interesting to me, Jack’s decision beyond wartime. Because there was a lot that was said during the context of tonight’s episode that you can understand why Jack would want to distance himself from his brother, but I think time has a chance to heal things and you never forget, but hopefully you get some forgiveness in your life.”

I agree with him, enough time went by and he was trying it seemed to me to be mean in the trailer, Nicky was trying to find common ground and he would start to smile but stop, then he froze and said, "And don't send things to my house!" After all those years, he was trying to be cold, maybe too hard to say he lied all that time.

[bettername2come]

1 hour ago, Booklady1017 said:

 

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I really like Miguel. 

He’s been constantly growing on me since “Jack Pearson’s Son” in season 1. I still think he oversteps, but it’s obvious how much he loves Tess and Annie and considers them his granddaughters - see Annie running to hug him screaming “Grandpa!” at Thanksgiving. And he was always a good friend to Jack and Rebecca. I really want to see the “how Jack and Miguel met” flashback. 

[Booklady1017]

9 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

No, remember she was alive at the point where Jack met Rebecca, and had just taken her out of her house and into a friend's home, to prevent her from further abuse (and himself from killing his father).

Wasn't that the last time we saw his mother?

7 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Oh well, that's true too. But he could be multidimensional just by, say, cutting Nicky off for 20 years. But forever? Too harsh.

I would have liked it better if he had come to terms with what his brother did and didn't cut him off entirely after 20 years. Even if he felt uneasy with having him near his kids, he could have moved him and helped him without his family's involvement.

[theatremouse]

Nicky was high as fuck on that boat. I think that's why Jack kept stopping him from trying to explain. It doesn't matter if Jack thought it were intentional because of Nicky's previous rant about civilians, or if Nicky had the chance to tell him it were an accident (which Jack may or may not have believed). Any explanation Nicky could've had, Jack probably considered and none of them would change his mind. Jack held Nicky responsible for being in that position in the first place, on the boat with the kid and a box full of grenades, while on a bucketful of drugs. Regardless of whether Nicky were a heartless monster intentionally setting out to hurt civilians or just a stoned dumbass, Jack wasn't going to forgive him either way.

[debraran]

15 minutes ago, Booklady1017 said:

Wasn't that the last time we saw his mother?

Yes, the actress said  in interview:

The last we saw of her, she left her home and moved in with her friend. And as of right now that's open-ended, we don't know what happened next. We don't know what's going to happen with her journey. It's interesting because there are so many directions the character can go in.

I'm also hoping for some bittersweet moments that can bring some joy back into the Pearson's life. (quote)

Edited January 23, 2019 by debraran

[Booklady1017]

5 hours ago, Whimsy said:

Rebecca didn't know. I was confused for a millisecond when she said to Miguel "They found him" because I thought she was just telling Miguel that they found OUT not that they physically found him and then texted that they physically found him.  

 

 

I agree.  It was anticlimatic.  I totally thought what @BonnieD said about Nicky being AWOL, but then realized that couldn't be the case when they showed a package with his name because he would've most likely used a fake name.  I don't think that any more at all.  I think he just was living a hermit lifestyle due to his guilt, addiction, etc. 

I thought she pieced it together in the end how Jack did visit Nick and knew all that time that Nick was alive but didn't know at the time that he went to visit him. Maybe she really believed it was a Vietnam Vet friend? I don't know.

[Booklady1017]

26 minutes ago, debraran said:

From ER? That will be nice and Phylicia Rashad, love it!!

I guess Milo wasn't thrilled with Jack either:

“I personally didn’t agree with it,” Ventimiglia told TheWrap. “I didn’t agree with Jack’s decision to cut his brother out. I imagine Jack needed time to get over it, but I think Jack was moving forward in his life. And what will be interesting to me is Jack’s life once he gets home [from the war]. ‘Cause, I mean, he enlisted in Vietnam to go find his brother, he finds his brother in the middle of a war — he finds his brother, tries to help his brother, and then his brother contributes to the unspeakable. So it’s interesting to me, Jack’s decision beyond wartime. Because there was a lot that was said during the context of tonight’s episode that you can understand why Jack would want to distance himself from his brother, but I think time has a chance to heal things and you never forget, but hopefully you get some forgiveness in your life.”

I agree with him, enough time went by and he was trying it seemed to me to be mean in the trailer, Nicky was trying to find common ground and he would start to smile but stop, then he froze and said, "And don't send things to my house!" After all those years, he was trying to be cold, maybe too hard to say he lied all that time.

Yes he was on ER and yes you are right, I heard Phylicia Rashad plays her mother.

I think they should have went the way Milo said. I had mentioned too, that I could understand Jack distancing himself from Nicky for a while but maybe during that visit forgave him and started to heal.

31 minutes ago, bettername2come said:

He’s been constantly growing on me since “Jack Pearson’s Son” in season 1. I still think he oversteps, but it’s obvious how much he loves Tess and Annie and considers them his granddaughters - see Annie running to hug him screaming “Grandpa!” at Thanksgiving. And he was always a good friend to Jack and Rebecca. I really want to see the “how Jack and Miguel met” flashback. 

I do too want to see how the Jack and Miguel met flashback.

[Hyla]

35 minutes ago, Perkie said:

Also, why did no one on shore hear the first grenade go off, the one that he used to kill the fish

I wondered that too - but was the first grenade muffled because it detonated underwater?

38 minutes ago, Perkie said:

This is exactly what I thought.  Either grab the grenade and toss it over or grab the kid and toss him over.  Leaving the kid behind as he jumped in the water was all kinds of wrong.

I wish Nicky had at least tried to grab the kid and throw him in or had abandoned ship in the kid's direction.

I agree with the quote above that said the irony of that was that the boy was reaching Nicky - maybe if they had both gotten to shore safely Nicky would have been more at peace and open to being helped.

I don't blame Jack for cutting off Nicky. He suffered a lot to bring Nicky back. And it was more than an accident what happened on the boat. It was equivalent to a drunk and high individual taking somebody else's eight year old without permission and putting them in the front seat without a seatbelt and then speeding down the highway. He didn't mean for the kid to die - but the kid shouldn't have been in that boat in the first place.

I think once away from the war Nicky could maybe have gotten his act together with Jack's help - but Jack just didn't have anything left to give him.

The Big Three and Rebecca might be confused and hurt knowing their dad not only lied about his brother being dead but also allowed him to languish and suffer without reaching out to help him.

But, that was Jack's decision to put the war and his dysfunctional family behind him and create a life as perfect as he could make it for Rebecca and his kids.

He struggled with his demons and alcoholism and financial worries enough already. The burden was already weighing heavy on his already weak heart. If he'd opened the door a crack for his brother it might have blown wide open and brought all that trauma and pain with it taking down him and his family with it. He couldn't risk that.

It's too bad for Nicky - and he's suffered for the last 40 years. I'm looking forward to seeing his healing in the next few episodes.

Also, I like the flashback parts the best. I want to see more about Jack and Nicky's childhood and how their father went from the loving family man when Nicky was born to the father they both couldn't stand to be around. 

[Booklady1017]

16 minutes ago, debraran said:

Yes, the actress said  in interview:

The last we saw of her, she left her home and moved in with her friend. And as of right now that's open-ended, we don't know what happened next. We don't know what's going to happen with her journey. It's interesting because there are so many directions the character can go in.

I'm also hoping for some bittersweet moments that can bring some joy back into the Pearson's life. (quote)

Thanks for commenting on that. 

[ams1001]

18 hours ago, DoItToIt said:

IIRC, that's actually pretty accurate with what it sounds like after being in close proximity to an explosion. For some people, unfortunately, that ringing is the last thing they hear ever again. 

I know; it just drives me nuts. I have tinnitus, so I kind of hear that all the time (at a much lower volume, and it often gets drowned out by, or at least blends with, other noise around me). Mostly it doesn't bother me too much (I've had it for almost 30 years, so I'm pretty much used to it), but when I hear it outside my own head like that it makes me cringe. Sometimes I have to cover my ears, but then I usually wind up missing some dialogue.

 

18 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

My dog hated it. 

Aw, I'll bet.

 

17 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Even though it was hard for Nicky to relive and tell his story he now has family... Jack was wrong I think to decide for Nicky amdnall of Nickys family that he was dead, even lying to randall at the Vietnam Memorial.

I'm not sure he exactly lied at the memorial (aside from the implication that Nicky was dead, but he didn't say that outright then – lie of omission, I guess). He said he didn't want to look for his name because it was too sad. Which might have been the truth; what really happened might be sadder for him than if Nicky had actually died in the war.

 

18 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

And I think Nicky would absolutely have shot himself- I don’t think that was the first time he’d considered it, given his speech about how haunted he is by the woman crying. 

If it had gone that way, they would have a whole different path of drama when they all blame themselves for intruding on him and leading him to commit suicide (though I agree that's almost certainly not even close to the first time he would have contemplated it, or even sat at that table with the gun). Imagining the Pearsonifying they could have gotten out of their guilt.

 

9 hours ago, jmonique said:

I wanted to add that even though this show is known for aging its actors to tackle different eras, I totally back the decision to have Griffin Dunne play 70-year-old Nicky.

While I'm one of those who can actually buy Mandy as 65+year-old Rebecca, I'm always overly aware that Jon Huertas is wearing aging makeup. I think allowing Dunne to step in and take on the role of Nicky allowed me to believe that this was a man who has lived with a life-altering pain, guilt and grief for over 40 years. I wasn't distracted by 31-year-old Michael Angarano trying to adopt the mannerisms of not just a Vietnam war vet, but also a 70-year-old hermit. Dunne was able to slip into that skin, and carry himself like an older man because he is one.

 

Agreed. Also, MA looks younger than 31, I think, and I know him more from stuff he did as a kid, so aging him up would probably be even more distracting. Jon Huertas at least is 50 so he's got some natural aging in his face already. (So you'd think adding 20-ish years wouldn't be so hard.)

 

2 hours ago, Booklady1017 said:

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I really like Miguel. 

Me, too. I never did get the Miguel hate; from the moment we learned he had married Rebecca, knowing literally nothing of how that came about, everyone decided he was the bad guy.

[AriAu]

That was a very good hour (ok 48 minutes) of television-a horrific event, but really well done television....as evidenced by the many and varied responses and reactions in this forum.

Personally, I think it was totally out of character for Jack never to forgive his brother, especially after seeing the conditions he was living in. I get NEEDING to distance himself and perhaps even giving up on Nicky after what happened out of a combination of:

(i) guilt- he brought Nicky there and couldn't fix him....directly leading to the avoidable tragedy;

(ii)  frustration -he tried everything to pull Nicky out of it and put his ass on the line for his brother and still the tragedy;

(iii) disgust at the awful acts of a drugged out idiot/loser....and there is truly no denying that Nicky was still high when this all happened; and/or

(iv) addicts remorse and needing to stay away from another addict

BUT there is no way the Jack Pearson we had seen could just permanently turn his back on him especially seeing him living in squalor.

I am interested to see what he told his parents or perhaps what they knew or didn't know. Their father was an asshole even before they left for war so its not like he only became abusive when his son died. It just doesn't seem possible that Jack lied to his mother the whole time or that Nicky never reached out to her....but in classic This is Us fashion, that part will unfold and likely in the most painful way possible.

Of course YMMV...and he did screw up chocolate milk

Edited January 24, 2019 by AriAu

[WendyM]

46 minutes ago, debraran said:

From ER? That will be nice and Phylicia Rashad, love it!!

I guess Milo wasn't thrilled with Jack either:

“I personally didn’t agree with it,” Ventimiglia told TheWrap. “I didn’t agree with Jack’s decision to cut his brother out. I imagine Jack needed time to get over it, but I think Jack was moving forward in his life. And what will be interesting to me is Jack’s life once he gets home [from the war]. ‘Cause, I mean, he enlisted in Vietnam to go find his brother, he finds his brother in the middle of a war — he finds his brother, tries to help his brother, and then his brother contributes to the unspeakable. So it’s interesting to me, Jack’s decision beyond wartime. Because there was a lot that was said during the context of tonight’s episode that you can understand why Jack would want to distance himself from his brother, but I think time has a chance to heal things and you never forget, but hopefully you get some forgiveness in your life.”

I agree with him, enough time went by and he was trying it seemed to me to be mean in the trailer, Nicky was trying to find common ground and he would start to smile but stop, then he froze and said, "And don't send things to my house!" After all those years, he was trying to be cold, maybe too hard to say he lied all that time.

Another thought I had is that Jack didn't know he was going to die relatively young. Maybe in the back of his mind, he was thinking that he knew where Nicky lived and he had all the time in the world to reach out and make amends. Maybe when the kids were much older...I don't know. Especially as he was working through the program and all.

[GodsBeloved]

Jack’s war buddy Mr Robinson told Kevin that he reached out to Jack after the war but never heard back from him. I was baffled at that.

When I saw that Jack cut Nicky off completely I was totally shocked then remembered what Mr Robinson said. That helped me swallow Jack’s actions a little better because it seems he was complete in cutting off Vietnam. It wasn’t just Nicky or the horrible events but it was also his friend, a friend whose life he saved.

[memememe76]

Jack relapsed around the time Rebecca got that music gig, and the kids were teens (16?). We haven't really seen Jack in AA, so I do believe there will likely be an episode where he is wanting to meet up with Nick to make amends...but doesn't. 

Edited January 24, 2019 by memememe76

[pinkglove]

18 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

Also I haven’t read all the  comments about tonight’s episode yet so I don’t know how others feel but this feels way worse than Rebecca having met William twice and not saying a thing to Randall or anybody. Jack lied to everyone, including his parents, it seems like his dad knew, in one of their flashbacks his dad said something about Jack not being able to save his brother. Yes this can be taken many ways but it really seemed like he meant he was dead.

But Nicky could have told their parents himself, couldn't he? I... despise what Jack did, but at least he was pretty much only deciding for himself that he doesn't want Nicky in his life. Sure, because of that, his children almost didn't get to meet their uncle, but that's what happens in many families I guess (as a child, you pretty much get to meet those relatives that your parents are on good terms with). IMO it's not nearly as bad as Rebecca hiding Randall's father from him, especially considering that he was black and often felt out of place. 

That being said, this episode just confirmed what I knew since Season 1, I really don't like Jack. He definitely had his moments, but I much preferred small gestures to big heroic ones. And the thing with him playing a hero is that, for me, it always had a dark undertone. Like when he forced his grand gestures on Rebecca, not seeing that he left her no control over their lives. With Nicky, I suppose it was harder for him to forgive because he did that huge thing for him, went to hell to keep an eye on him, and it turned out that it was Nicky who was the devil. And it would be fine as the initial reaction. But as time passed, he should have realized that life isn't black and white and at least it's unfair to judge without knowing the whole story. When they met, it wasn't hard to figure out that Nicky would never be done punishing himself; I can't imagine additionally punishing my sister (the only sibling I have) in parallel circumstances for 20 years. Of course, since I've also never had to deal with war trauma, "I can't imagine" has a double meaning here. 

2 hours ago, Booklady1017 said:

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I really like Miguel. 

I like him too, but I have one major problem with him - Miguel is way too much about Jack. Even in this episode, he had nice time with Randall's daughters, but then I hear him talking about Jack again; we rarely see him and Rebecca doing something or discussing something that is in no way connected to Jack. I suppose that at this point, everything in the show is too much about Jack for me, but in a way, Miguel embodies it better than anyone. I liked when he took Rebecca to his family, because at least we got to see that there's more to him than his friendship to Jack (sometimes, his relationship with Rebecca seems like an extension of it). After that episode, I got the impression that he got so caught up in Jack's story* because he craved the emotional depth that it provided (it looked as if people in his first family liked to keep it casual and... well, somewhat shallow).

*I judge by what he said when Rebecca and her children went to the therapy session and their loved ones had a small meltdown in the bar, talking about how they sometimes feel they will always play second fiddle. Miguel pretty much admitted that he's happy to do it, because what Pearsons had with Jack was so huge and important. I found it extremely sad, and neither true nor healthy.  

[debraran]

23 minutes ago, pinkglove said:

But Nicky could have told their parents himself, couldn't he? I... despise what Jack did, but at least he was pretty much only deciding for himself that he doesn't want Nicky in his life. Sure, because of that, his children almost didn't get to meet their uncle, but that's what happens in many families I guess (as a child, you pretty much get to meet those relatives that your parents are on good terms with). IMO it's not nearly as bad as Rebecca hiding Randall's father from him, especially considering that he was black and often felt out of place. 

That being said, this episode just confirmed what I knew since Season 1, I really don't like Jack. He definitely had his moments, but I much preferred small gestures to big heroic ones. And the thing with him playing a hero is that, for me, it always had a dark undertone. Like when he forced his grand gestures on Rebecca, not seeing that he left her no control over their lives. With Nicky, I suppose it was harder for him to forgive because he did that huge thing for him, went to hell to keep an eye on him, and it turned out that it was Nicky who was the devil. And it would be fine as the initial reaction. But as time passed, he should have realized that life isn't black and white and at least it's unfair to judge without knowing the whole story. When they met, it wasn't hard to figure out that Nicky would never be done punishing himself; I can't imagine additionally punishing my sister (the only sibling I have) in parallel circumstances for 20 years. Of course, since I've also never had to deal with war trauma, "I can't imagine" has a double meaning here. 

I like him too, but I have one major problem with him - Miguel is way too much about Jack. Even in this episode, he had nice time with Randall's daughters, but then I hear him talking about Jack again; we rarely see him and Rebecca doing something or discussing something that is in no way connected to Jack. I suppose that at this point, everything in the show is too much about Jack for me, but in a way, Miguel embodies it better than anyone. I liked when he took Rebecca to his family, because at least we got to see that there's more to him than his friendship to Jack (sometimes, his relationship with Rebecca seems like an extension of it). After that episode, I got the impression that he got so caught up in Jack's story* because he craved the emotional depth that it provided (it looked as if people in his first family liked to keep it casual and... well, somewhat shallow).

*I judge by what he said when Rebecca and her children went to the therapy session and their loved ones had a small meltdown in the bar, talking about how they sometimes feel they will always play second fiddle. Miguel pretty much admitted that he's happy to do it, because what Pearsons had with Jack was so huge and important. I found it extremely sad, and neither true nor healthy.  

I always liked Miguel and wanted him to sweep Rebecca away on a romantic vacation at some point, show them as a real couple. Fogleman was afraid at first, Jack's fans wouldn't like it, but that's silly. If you stop watching because they show a mature loving couple who loved and moved on with their lives, that's not a real fan. It's not healthy to keep interjecting Jack into everything. Maybe Nicky will be a break in that and he'll talk about what Jack didn't about their past. I want to see Rebecca and Miguel more with the kids and grand kids also. They have a nice chemistry together.

I thought of AA too when he didn't reach out or just making piece with God. Jack didn't have a last straw with Nicky really. He wasn't the "screw up" kid all his life, he was the smart, good, sensitive one. He didn't belong in a war but he also didn't want to hide in Canada. So sad, he ended up doing that in a way living alone. He loved Nicky as they wrote it, to pieces, enlisted for him and because of a drug addiction he used to blur the war, a horrible accident, that was it?  I never was enamored with  Jack, thought he undermined Rebecca, spoiled Kate, wasn't perfect in a lot of ways, but what was annoying, was the way no one saw it. Now at least, there are more visible warts.

Edited January 24, 2019 by debraran

[Katekate]

Finally. A good episode this season.  It only took them 11 tries. Glad I’ve hung in there!

[pinkglove]

11 minutes ago, debraran said:

I never was enamored with  Jack, thought he undermined Rebecca, spoiled Kate, wasn't perfect in a lot of ways, but what was annoying, was the way no one saw it. Now at least, there are more visible warts.

Exactly, the first thing that really turned me off was not what Jack did wrong, but Kate blaming all of her issues on Rebecca and being blind to the part played by Jack. 

3 minutes ago, Katekate said:

Finally. A good episode this season.  It only took them 11 tries. Glad I’ve hung in there!

Agreed, I forgot to say that. I started watching the episode out of habit and it turned out that for once this season, I didn't waste almost an hour of my life :)

[chocolatine]

15 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Apparently I am old and out of touch with fashion because I have no idea what these uncle hunter jeans are that Randall was talking about. Are those a real thing or did I hear what he said incorrectly?

You heard correctly, but it's definitely not a thing. Randall (i.e. the writers) made it up.

 

11 hours ago, Haleth said:

Maybe Mom Pearson died while the boys were in Vietnam?

 

11 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

No, remember she was alive at the point where Jack met Rebecca, and had just taken her out of her house and into a friend's home, to prevent her from further abuse (and himself from killing his father).

That, plus she also made the onesies for the Big Three, so she lived at least until 1980.

 

8 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

He did cut Nicky off for 20yrs- and then he died.

 

8 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Yes, Jack died young... but wasn't it years, like 6 years, after he'd seen Nicky? Didn't he see him in 1992, or do I have my timeline off?

Exactly, Jack died in 1998, six years after he went to see Nicky. I could maybe forgive cutting him off for 20 years if Jack had gone back for him in 1992. Jack was in a much better place at that point than he was right after the war, he had a happy home life, *and* he'd had his first bout with alcoholism already behind him, so should have gained a more compassionate perspective on addiction. He saw first-hand how miserable Nicky's life had been, that he'd been suffering all this time, and still chose to walk away.

 

7 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

It's interesting how some view Nicky as a victim in all of this.

I don't think anyone is saying that Nicky was a victim, some of us just feel that he didn't deserve to be shunned forever by his own brother.

 

7 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

He was working the program and he must have felt that he needed to make amends to Nicky in some way.  

I don't think he was working the program in 1992. IIRC, the first time Rebecca told him that his drinking was a problem, when the kids were 9 or 10, he stopped drinking on his own. It was when he relapsed in 1996, drove drunk to Ohio and beat up Rebecca's bandmate, and Rebecca asked him to move out, that he started going to AA.

[kissedbyarose]

2 hours ago, slasherboy said:

Some of us are absolutely a part of those times.  It was as bad as you would imagine.

 

Just to, respectfully, point out the correct wording.  Addicts are addicts for life.  Sometimes they're just not using, but if they tested the waters even once, they would once again be active addicts.  Same with the phrase, former alcoholic.  Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic.  Thank you for using the phrasing you did so I could bring this to peoples' attention.

Oh man... I know this too but thank you for correcting and reminding me. 

1 hour ago, Booklady1017 said:

I heard Beth's story is coming soon.  Goran Visnjic plays a significant role in her life. That's how I knew that.

This and Phylicia Rashad might make up for the fact that it took three seasons to get here and we had to endure that political storyline first...