Fosse/Verdon - General Discussion

[elle]

On 5/22/2019 at 7:40 PM, kieyra said:

Edit: wait, is the bizarre casting of Nicole some sort of meta-commentary on Gwen playing an “ingenue” at her age?

Unintended, I would say.  There is a scene where she is walking around the after party where she looks like an adult dressed up like a little girl.  That seemed to me as an unintended inversion to scene in the previous episode where Gwen is making up her child to look like an adult.

I feel that Juliet Brett was ill served by whoever made the decision to have her in these last two episodes.  One could see how she could play an adult Nicole but not a 12 year old.

5 hours ago, Blakeston said:

One thing that seems to be missing from the series is any sense of Fosse's charm.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not objecting to them depicting Fosse as a sexual predator - or as a moody pain-in-the-ass. I get that both of those descriptions definitely fit him very well at times.

But he must have had some charm to him. It's hard for me to picture Paddy Chayefsky and Neil Simon being such close friends with him if all he ever did was mope and grope.

and

2 hours ago, AriAu said:

Bingo-I have been trying to think of a way to convey this, but wasn't able to say it as well as this. He comes off as an asshole...a cheating, selfish/self-absorbed, sexual harrassing asshole and there seemed to be no reason for people to be with him (male or female) other than his talent and/or his power (employer, star or otherwise). A few episodes back, Ann Reinking/Margaret Qualley talks about how she fell in love with him talking to him and we never saw THAT guy. And my English teachers always taught us to show don't tell....yet all they did was tell us how charming he was.

Really glad to read (from the Reinking interview that they did NOT have sex in the hospital room a few days after his open heart surgery.....and that disturbing scene was actually fiction.

This has been bothering me from the beginning and like you have been unable to put it into words.  Roy Scheider was able to convey a humor to the Bob stand in he played.  As dark as he was there was a lightness to the character he played.  As @bosawks said above about Bob a "nihilist with a wink".

Good to know that scene was fiction. So why include it? They still could have him talk about his insecurities without degrading Ann. It felt like tptb just wanted to get in as many of those scenes because the could.  I'd would rather have more time spent on Gwen's story than to ensure more of that.

On 5/26/2019 at 1:06 PM, Quilt Fairy said:

One thing that has surprised me is how many Broadway shows where Fosse and Verdon were uncredited choreographers, including How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying.  It seems like they were part of a small clique of Broadway insiders - writers, producers, directors - who all pitched in to help others when needed. 

And

Quote

He helped out with choreography when How To Succeed in Business without Really Trying came to him, feeling let down by its official choreographer. (He would take only a "musical staging" credit, as he didn't want to embarrass the new kid, but all reports are that Fosse did nearly all of it.)

This is something that I really wished had been included.  It would have shown more of their careers as well as show Bob in a more flattering light.

Edited May 29, 2019 by elle

[Popples]

26 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

I wonder if Nicole is still friends with Neil Simon's daughter?  I'd like to think they grew up together and stayed friends.

If you're on Twitter, Lin-Manuel Miranda is watching this with Nicole and her two sons and they're live-streaming Q&As during the commercials.

48 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said:

ATJ?

The film All That Jazz.

[mightysparrow]

5 hours ago, Blakeston said:

One thing that seems to be missing from the series is any sense of Fosse's charm.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not objecting to them depicting Fosse as a sexual predator - or as a moody pain-in-the-ass. I get that both of those descriptions definitely fit him very well at times.

But he must have had some charm to him. It's hard for me to picture Paddy Chayefsky and Neil Simon being such close friends with him if all he ever did was mope and grope.

I think that the series and Sam Rockwell HAVE captured Fosse's charm.  Fosse might be a monster but monsters are often charming.  That's how they're able to wreak so much havoc in people's lives.

From that New Yorker article, it sounds like Ann Reinking is in deep denial.

[Jordan Baker]

That scene when Fosse collapsed on the sidewalk was everything. Emmys all around.

On a somewhat happier note, I did scream just a little when I realized Lin-Manuel Miranda was Roy Scheider.

[memememe76]

We all kinda knew how it would end, but why did it hit me so hard? I have grown so fond of this series. Michelle Williams has been masterful. It was not perfect, but it was worthwhile.

[LoveLeigh]

2 minutes ago, memememe76 said:

We all kinda knew how it would end, but why did it hit me so hard? I have grown so fond of this series. Michelle Williams has been masterful. It was not perfect, but it was worthwhile.

I loved love loved this series. Patricia Arquette I think will get two Emmy noms, for her Hulu series and Dannemora but Michelle Williams could win in a surprise. 

[Quilt Fairy]

5 hours ago, elle said:

Irma was made in 1963, Charity in 1969.  What was the difference in the movies that made it okay for one to be all about prostitutes but not the other?

Maybe because Irma is set in Paris?  You know those French. 😉

[Blakeston]

I honestly thought Patricia Arquette's portrayal in Escape at Dannemora was a grotesque caricature of the real-life woman she portrayed (and I realize that the real-life woman really was quite dumb and had a fairly thick regional accent, but I still think Arquette went overboard, particularly by exaggerating the accent.)

If Michelle Williams doesn't win for this masterclass in acting, I'll be very disappointed. And if it can't be Michelle, please let it be Amy Adams for Sharp Objects.

[voiceover]

I'm still a bit teary, and it's my second time through.   I really did love this series! and the ending did not disappoint.  Undoubtedly because I am approaching That Time of Life, but I thought this hour-plus nailed what aging is.  Regret, self-flagellation, the dropping away of people, the dying of contemporaries.  But it's also the embracing of what's really important, and the recognizing of what's sweet *as it's happening.

Salute to Norbert Leo Butz.  With this performance as Paddy, he has forever wiped the memory of his Emcee from my mind.  And I didn't think that was possible.  That scene in the deli last week was a recreation (afaik) of their favorite, nearly-daily lunching place, where for years the maitre d' would present them with the linen napkins he'd always have set aside, just for those two.   And though I knew what to expect from the funeral, I didn't know how it would affect me.  Devastating.  And when Bob kissed the casket, I just gasped out loud.  

An UO but I don't care: Annie's audition for ATJ looked and felt brutal, but the definition of insanity, etc etc.  First of all, you're auditioning to play yourself in the story of someone else's life!  Second: that's how some directors get it out of you.  And it's certainly how Fosse did it.  So while I like and admire Ann Reinking, I didn't feel sorry for her here.

Terrific moment in LA: they're pretending to "need" to talk themselves into working together again.  It was an echo of an echo of an echo back to that first non-audition.

And wow, the ending.  Bob and Gwen holding hands -- she's weeping reassurance & denial; he's looking at her the same way he looked at her all series long.

I knew who Gwen Verdon was before this, but I had no idea who Gwen Verdon **was.  Now I'm a slave to that collaboration.

Sam and Michelle!!!  It was a delight and a fascination and pure joy.  

Edited May 29, 2019 by voiceover

[elle]

1 hour ago, voiceover said:

Even ze orchestra...is beautiful.

That was lovely music.

Okay, I was caught off guard by the emotion that suddenly welled up during the penultimate scene with Gwen dancing Charity and the connection with Bob. Michelle and Sam acted so strongly that the emotion just jumped through the screen.

For all my gripes, I did enjoy this.  There was so much more to show, I wish it had more episodes.

1 hour ago, voiceover said:

Salute to Norbert Leo Butz

He needs to win best supporting actor along with best actor/actress for Sam and Michelle.

While I did feel  there was something missing in Sam's take on Bob, the scenes with NLB as Maddy were where I could see the charm of the character.  And finally in this episode, when Bob was dancing with Nicole, I could see Sam as Bob.

The later scene where Nicole is watching her screen counterpart play out that very scene, sad as it was to watch, gave me an unintentional chuckle. It came when Gwen asks Nicole if she was okay.  The exchange was on point mother/teen daughter, yeah I know that tone.

When I read that Lin-Manuel Miranda was playing Roy Scheider I was skeptical. I was pleasantly surprised at how much he looked like Roy as Joe.

[GaT]

I'm glad that's over, they were 2 really unlikable people.

[WonderWuman73]

If Michelle Williams doesn’t win the Emmy for this! Oh man. She was a revelation. Not all characters are going to be likeable but complex, human with faults. On the whole, it was a really good miniseries. It had me hooked all the way through. I’m a huge ATJ fan and saw a Sweet Charity revival back in 2005. That last scene of Williams and Rockwell connecting one last time on Charity brining it full circle was  bittersweet. I didn’t expect to tear up at the end but I did. 

[CatWarmer]

I thought the last episode was perhaps the strongest of the series and very satisfying.  I'm nowhere near as knowledgeable as many of the posters but have always loved Broadway.  My family used to visit relatives in norther NJ when I was growing up, and we always went into "The City" to see a show.  I saw some big names (and have the Playbills to prove it); just don't have the memory after so many years.

I did not realize it was Lin-Manual Miranda playing Roy playing Joe playing Bob until I read it here - he did a very recognizable portrayal of the character.  I did not feel Margaret Qualley came anywhere near as close playing Ann Reinking - she did not portray the stage presence (or smile) of the original.  I didn't realize until I read it in a review that her mother is Audie McDowell.  Apparently both parents were models before her mom became an actress.

[Spartan Girl]

Holy crap, Lin Manuel as Roy!

The ending was very well done, although it's strange that I'd be able to feel something for Bob when the show portrayed him as an asshole. Well, I'm sure the real guy had some redeeming qualities....

Glad Nicole finally found stability and happiness.

Edited May 29, 2019 by Spartan Girl

[alexvillage]

7 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

I think that the series and Sam Rockwell HAVE captured Fosse's charm.  Fosse might be a monster but monsters are often charming.  That's how they're able to wreak so much havoc in people's lives.

From that New Yorker article, it sounds like Ann Reinking is in deep denial.

I agree with you. I don't know if he captured Bob's charm but I thought he was trulls charming as Bob. As were Roy Scheider - only that his part was only a little blurb about Bob Fosse's life.

I think it is totally possible Ann is in denial. As I mentioned, the ATJ DVD has a special feature that is a conversation between Ann and the girl who plays Michelle and I had the same feeling, that she was somehow trying to soften the terrible about Fosse - his womanizing that got to a point of sexual assault. "Normal" for the times or not, "common practice" among artists or not, trying to make it light of that is bullshit. About the hospital sex, maybe it was an exaggeration to show how his mind worked. I don't really have an opinion on that.

[Rinaldo]

12 hours ago, elle said:

There is another musical to movie whose story about which I am curious.  With all the fuss that was being made at the time about the change in Sweet Charity, making Charity a taxi dancer, I wondered how the movie Irma la Douce made it to the screen. ...  Irma was made in 1963, Charity in 1969.  What was the difference in the movies that made it okay for one to be all about prostitutes but not the other?  Because Billy Wilder was involved or was it one was a musical and the other was not?

The change goes back to the stage shows: Charity is a taxi dancer in the original musical as written by Fosse and Simon (and Coleman and Fields). So the decision to soften the Fellini source material in this way was theirs.

Irma wasn't the first instance (not that anybody said it was) of a musical being bought for the movies and then all the songs being discarded. It happened with Fanny around the same time, and one can find earlier instances like On Your Toes.

7 hours ago, Jordan Baker said:

On a somewhat happier note, I did scream just a little when I realized Lin-Manuel Miranda was Roy Scheider.

I've managed to stay largely innocent about casting. So my first thought in the scene showing the filming of the All That Jazz scene was "Wow, they've found a remarkable visual/physical match for Roy Scheider." That turned to a triple Wow when we got a closeup and I realized it was Lin-Manuel Miranda.

I'm a little surprised that we skipped past Fosse's last new musical, Big Deal. Coming near the end of his life, I would think it'd be worth a mention. It would have fit in with the pervading point that both of them felt that need to keep working, however imperfect the opportunity.

Edited May 29, 2019 by Rinaldo

[TV Diva Queen]

1 hour ago, Rinaldo said:

The change goes back to the stage shows: Charity is a taxi dancer in the original musical as written by Fosse and Simon (and Coleman and Fields). So the decision to soften the Fellini source material in this way was theirs.

Irma wasn't the first instance (not that anybody said it was) of a musical being bought for the movies and then all the songs being discarded. It happened with Fanny around the same time, and one can find earlier instances like On Your Toes.

I've managed to stay largely innocent about casting. So my first thought in the scene showing the filming of the All That Jazz scene was "Wow, they've found a remarkable visual/physical match for Roy Scheider." That turned to a triple Wow when we got a closeup and I realized it was Lin-Manuel Miranda.

I'm a little surprised that we skipped past Fosse's last new musical, Big Deal. Coming near the end of his life, I would think it'd be worth a mention. It would have fit in with the pervading point that both of them felt that need to keep working, however imperfect the opportunity.

Same. I didn’t realize it was Lin Manuel until after “Bob” came back down the stairs from dancing in the audience. The two were hugging.  My 18 yo daughter and Broadway partner in crime, who was home from school and never saw an episode of this, said to me “mom, there’s Hamilton”. (She said it sarcastically because I’m a Hamilton freak) Lol. Then I hit rewind 

[AriAu]

Quote

I'm glad that's over, they were 2 really unlikable people.

Quote

Glad Nicole finally found stability and happiness.

So.....the big lesson from this show is not to piss off your kids since they may paint you in the worst light possible on FX!  Bob Fosse must have been truly charming in real life, but I saw none of it. Gwen Verdon was beloved by those who worked with her (according to all accounts) but she gave very little of that to her child in terms of real caring and affection.

And, as an aside, was she giving her parents the middle finger when she was in the movie of A Chorus Line, the show that won all the Tonys over Chicago.

They really screwed up with casting a 26 year old as Nicole. Not only was the make-up NOT convincing at all, but it took away the impact of her drinking (and her parents accepting her drinking) when she was like 15 or 16. But it was devastating to watch the betrayal come over her as she watched that scene she thought was real affection from her father play out virtually word for word in rehearsal.

Lastly, what were they trying to show in the Charity scene with the faux Debbie Allen (the actress did a good job sounding like her.)

Hey Lin Manuel....you are going to need a bigger boat! I had not heard ANYTHING about him having a cameo and it was a pleasant surprise.

ETA-Nicole was born in March 1963. According to IMDB, the film was released in December 1979, but filming took 101 days and post production took over 8 months. IMDB also says the scene where Joe Gideon dances with his daughter was one of the first one shot.....and therefore Nicole was 15 when she saw them shoot that scene and we saw her casually drinking wine and taking "dexies" before then. 

Edited May 29, 2019 by AriAu
A Little Math

[Quilt Fairy]

The difference between "Debbie Allen's" version of "If They Could See Me Now" and Gwen's was stunning.  Debbie's was bright and chirpy whereas Gwen managed to convey all the neediness, gawkiness, and lack of self-confidence inherent in the character of Charity. 

2 hours ago, AriAu said:

They really screwed up with casting a 26 year old as Nicole. Not only was the make-up NOT convincing at all, but it took away the impact of her drinking (and her parents accepting her drinking) when she was like 15 or 16. But it was devastating to watch the betrayal come over her as she watched that scene she thought was real affection from her father play out virtually word for word in rehearsal.

The first time we saw her this ep I couldn't place the year and I thought she must be in her 20's now and finally the actor is age-appropriate.  But I came to realize she was supposed to be in her teens.  The really were off on this one piece of casting, that girl just looks her age (26) and they apparently did nothing to make her look younger. 

Edited May 29, 2019 by Quilt Fairy

[Rinaldo]

24 minutes ago, AriAu said:

Hey Lin Manuel....you are going to need a bigger boat! I had not heard ANYTHING about him having a cameo and it was a pleasant surprise

It seems to have been deliberately and successfully kept secret. One website today congratulated frequent tweeter LMM for never breathing a word.

[alexvillage]

49 minutes ago, AriAu said:

And, as an aside, was she giving her parents the middle finger when she was in the movie of A Chorus Line, the show that won all the Tonys over Chicago.

That's possible but it could also be that she was trying to "make it" in showbiz, as a dancer or actress, and that was an opportunity that young artists don't usually pass. I guess Michael Douglas was too big a name for an aspiring artist to say "nah, I pass. He made my parents sad". It is also possible that Gwen might have been "offended" by that, or maybe she was really being supportive of her daughter. There are several possibilities for what they thought and how they react that we will never know, we can only speculate.

[mightysparrow]

Michelle Williams deserves every accolade that she's receiving (and more).  I'm not a fan but her performance was incredibly powerful.  She showed us Gwen Verdon, the artist, the mother, the WOMAN and that's no easy feat at all.

But I'm going to have to give my boy Sam Rockwell equal props.  First of all, his partnership with Michelle Williams was amazing.  His performance matched hers every step of the way and you could see the times where he knew to step back and give Michelle her moment.  I think his job was so harder in a lot of ways because he was playing a man it would be easy to hate.  But I think that even while Rockwell never shirked from showing us just how horrible Fosse could be (and he could be awful) he also showed us why people LOVED him and still do.  Rockwell showed us underneath the 'razzle dazzle' and showed Fosse's pain and suffering, his guilt and shame.  We also saw the loving husband and father even if he mostly failed at both jobs.  And we saw the loyal and loving friend.  The scene at Paddy's funeral was devastating.  I'd heard that Fosse had tap danced at Chayevsky's funeral but I thought it was going to be some sort of soft-show, shuffle off to Buffalo type of thing.  I didn't realize that Fosse danced his grief.  Fosse expressed his anguish and his love in his art, which is what he had been doing his whole life.

What I loved the most about this series was it showed a true partnership between two equals that lasted their whole lives.  I do wish we had seen more of what made Gwen Verdon such a huge star in her time.  But I think the producers wanted to focus on the things that MOST people had heard about; Chicago, All That Jazz, Pippen.   Like it or not, Fosse is much more famous than Gwen Verdon and his name was what pulled in viewers.  It surprised me to hear so many people say that they LOVED Bob Fosse but had never heard of Gwen Verdon.

I knew the death scene was coming, they've been counting down from the first scene.  But I didn't know how devastating it would be.  It was all there, the whole relationship.  We saw why they stayed together through all the betrayal and pain.  It  wasn't just that they loved each other more than anything else.  They respected each other and understood each other and accepted each other through thick and thin.  They were partners.

At the end it felt good to find out that even though she went through her own struggles, Nicole made it through.  It was very moving to know that Gwen died, in her sleep, two months after she'd moved in with Nicole and her family.  I think she knew that Nicole would be alright and she could finally rest and join Bob, wherever he was.

[TimWil]

I thought the casting for Debbie Allen was particularly awful. The performer was NOTHING like Allen. Even the hair seemed totally wrong.

Fosse had epilepsy? Why did they slip that in at the very last moment?

And where was Margaret Qualley as Ann/Katie in the All That Jazz/“Bye Bye Love” sequence? It seems a substantial dramatic opportunity of her hugging “fake” Bob and then the “real” Bob was squandered. Oh well. At least we didn’t see any of the fictional strippers there.

Edited May 29, 2019 by TimWil

[Blakeston]

This may sound odd, but the Gwen/Bob dynamic really reminded me of the dynamic between Lucille Ball and Desi Arnaz.

Lucy and Desi were each others' best partners, professionally speaking, and they remained deeply in love until he died. But they couldn't live together as romantic partners because she became completely fed up with his constant cheating (which I'm convinced was a matter of sex addiction), and his alcoholism.

Even though they split up and became seriously involved with other people, however, they remained good friends. When he was dying of lung cancer, she was at his side.

[tennisgurl]

Even knowing it was coming, and despite everything awful that he has done, I still started tearing up the second Bob fell down on the sidewalk. Gwen desperately telling him how everything would be alright, while Bob just looked at her like she was his salvation, it just gutted me. I really hope everyone on this show gets showered with Emmy's. That and the sequence where Gwen danced her Sweet Charity part, and they were connection and clearly thinking back to their long life together, the good and the bad. I love that they started the series and ended it with Sweet Charity and Hey Big Spender, it was so bittersweet. 

In the midst of the tears, I cheered when I realized that was Lin-Manuel Miranda as Roy Scheider. That was a really good impression, as familiar as I am with Lin-Manuel it took me awhile to realize it was him. 

[Poohbear617]

2 hours ago, TimWil said:

Fosse had epilepsy? Why did they slip that in at the very last moment?

They did mention it earlier. When bob had his heart attack the doctor asked what meds he was on and gwen listed meds he takes for epilepsy.

7 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Glad Nicole finally found stability and happiness.

Not for long though. SHE did marry and have children with an artist. Gwen lived with them and died in October 2000.  Less than 2 months later Nicole's husband was killed in December by drunk driver at the age of 31...she never has remarried.

I have a small criticism at the end. In Interviews I have heard Sam and others mentioning how they hoped to give more of the credit to gwen, since Bob was better known, to show how vital she was to him. I wish they would have added just a little bit more to show the 14 years that gwen went on after Bob's death. Why not mention her 3 emmy nominations (1 b4 bob death), success in Cocoon, received a SAG nomination and BAFTA nomination for best supporting actress for Marvin's room (especially after it implied she was not a good actress is she was not in a musical with that play she did). They could have listed it at the end with the writing...just a little something that stressed a little more that her life went on without Bob and she had some success on her own.

I did love the show though. I  am looking forward to awards seasons. Women did fine work this season. As already mentioned Patricia Arquette in 2 roles, Michelle, and Joey King in the ACT. Strong work all around.

Edited May 29, 2019 by Poohbear617

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Paddy: 30 minutes a day of exercise. Can't smoke. Can't eat anything that tastes good. I'm supposed to only work regular hours.
Bob: Regular hours? What's that?
Paddy: Who the hell knows?

Bob: You know, it's pretty lousy of you. I have a heart attack and then you upstage me by having your own heart attack.

Paddy: The problem with your movie, Bob, is very simple. Your character doesn't change. Your hero doesn't change.
Bob: Lenny didn't change. Charity didn't change.
Paddy: Exactly, none of your characters ever change, which is why your endings are always shit. I say this as a friend. 
Bob: I disagree.
Paddy: Bobby, it's storytelling 101. Your hero has to change. He's got to he's got to transform over the course of the picture. It's called catharsis.
Paddy: How about it's called bullshit?

Paddy: I'll tell you your story. You want to know your story? 
Bob: Yeah, tell me my story. 
Paddy: All right. I'll tell you your story. Your story is Bobby meets a young dancer.
Bob: The character's name is Joe. Joe. Joe Gideon.
Paddy: Oh, Joe. Yeah, that's really going to throw them off the scent there, Bob. Yeah, no one's ever gonna guess that the hero at the center of your story who can't stop popping pills and fucking broads is supposed to be you because his name is Joe.
Bob: All right, just tell me the story.
Paddy: Act one - Joe meets a beautiful young dancer whom we will call, I don't know, Annie. Now act one, Joe falls in love with Annie. But he's still all mixed up with his ex-wife, whom we'll call Gwen for no reason at all. Now act two, Joe ruins everything with Annie because he's too selfish and he can't stop screwing around. All of the stress, all of the guilt gives him a heart attack. He ends up in the hospital. Now faced with the prospect of his own death in act three, he suddenly realizes that it was Gwen all along. She was the one for him from the start because she was the only woman who was ever his true equal as a creator, as an artist. And he knows that he squandered everything with her. He knows he shot it all to hell. But now he's ready to change. He's ready to give up the broads, yeah? He's ready to to get his act together and and spend the rest of his life with his soul mate, with his collaborator, with the mother of his child if he can just get out of this goddamn hospital bed. But it's too late. He doesn't make it. He dies. Roll credits. See? Transformation and tragedy. It's moving. That's your story.
Bob: He already knows all that. He knows should've been with her. It doesn't matter what he knows. Knowing doesn't change anything. It's still just a bunch of bullshit. It may be a nice story, but it's not true.
Paddy: Hey, I didn't say it was true, Bob. I said it was a satisfying ending. You want true, go to a priest, not a playwright.

Gwen: Nicole told me that you'd quit [smoking]. 
Bob: I did. 
Gwen: So what happened?
Bob: Uh, Annie left. She moved out a month ago. Nicole told you?
Gwen: No, Annie told me.
Bob: When did you talk to her?
Gwen: At rehearsal. We've been working on the part.
Bob: Is that strange, uh, having Annie replace you?
Gwen: It's pretty familiar, I'd say.

Bob: When I got out of the hospital, did I seem different to you in any way?
Gwen: Different how?
Bob: Well, people say that I changed, that I was meaner, I was harsh with people, with you in particular. You think that's true?
Gwen: Do you think that you changed?
Bob: Well, I'm interviewing you.
Gwen: I don't think you changed at all. I think you became more yourself. You stopped pretending to be anything else.

Nicole: Isn't Richard Dreyfuss playing you?
Bob: Nah, he got nervous about the dancing. He dropped out. We need somebody more handsome, taller. You know, lots of hair. Uh, maybe Tom Selleck.
Nicole: I thought it was supposed to be realistic.

Bob: Your eyes are looking a little bloodshot there.
Nicole: It's allergies.
Bob: Yeah, I get the same thing. It must be hereditary. Next time, use Visine. I hear it helps.

[tennisgurl]

I really enjoyed this miniseries, and I am thrilled it let me know more about both Gwen and Bobby and all the great work they did. The music, the performances, the editing, the blending of real life and musicals, it all really worked for me to learn who these people were, both artistically and in their personal lives. Or at least, it gave a good overview. I knew who both of them were and was pretty familiar with their plays but I didnt know much about them as people, so this was a really fascinating watch. Plus, it inspired me to watch Cabaret again for the first time in years, and its just as weird and cool as I remember it being. 

I love that when the show started, Bobby had to call Gwen in to tweak Sweet Charity, and at the end, Gwen needed Bobby to tweak it. They certainly did plenty of impressive things on their own, but they were truly creative soulmates, who brought the best artistically out of each other, and whos styles and talents complimented each other beautifully. Thats probably my favorite thing about the show, I just loved this explosive creative energy that came from this meeting of the minds, and even when they could hardly stand each other, they still GOT each other in ways that no one else did. 

What a head trip it was to see Bobby working on a biography about himself...while watching another biography about Bobby and Gwen. It took all these weird meta turns, and I cant imagine how weird it must have been for the people in his life, like Annie and Nicole, to see their own lives and words in the script. Annie had to audition to play herself!

Bobby and Gwen could both be really difficult people, especially Bobby, but I still left the show feeling sympathy for them, and respect for their love of their craft and everything they gave the world. Bobby especially was in many ways a loathsome person, but I still felt like there was an element of tragedy to him that kept me from hating him. He was so clearly still tormented from his terrible childhood and his trauma, and he never even got close to really dealing with what happened to him, and that messed him up so much, and even he seemed to understand on some level what happened to him and how it affected him, but he could never fully articulate it in ways that would actually help him. It makes me sad for the person he could have been. 

Lots of great moments in this episode in general, like Bobby tap dancing at Paddy's funeral and kissing his coffin while he barley holds it together, Gwen's last dance, Bobby at the shoot of his movie taking over fake Bobby for a second, those last moments between Gwen and Bobby, just lots of great memorable scenes throughout.   

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Loved LMM's cameo!

I also loved the end of that scene when Bob was basking in all the admiration and then the director yelled cut and Bob realized that it was all fake, followed by that look of resigned disappointment.

While I understand Ron (or anyone else in a relationship with Bob or Gwen) feeling like the third wheel/consolation prize, it seemed like an odd breaking point for him. As Ron pointed out, one of the reasons they never followed through on their "let's get away from the city permanently" plan was because Gwen was always working (or looking for work). I think part of her motivation was truly what she said more than once: that she wanted to have enough money so that Nicole would always be provided for.

But I think the other part of her motivation is that she was an actress and working fulfilled her in a way like nothing else did. If there was a job that someone was willing to give her, she wanted to take it. As a fellow actor, I thought Ron would understand that drive, so it seemed strange that agreeing to do a tour of Chicago was what annoyed Ron and made him think that Gwen couldn't say no to Bob. Of all the things that happened between the time that Gwen started dating him and the Chicago tour (which was years), THAT was what made Ron realize that Gwen was always running off whenever Bob asked for her help?

Poor Nicole. It's one thing to see your dad take what you thought was a nice moment and put it on display, but it's another thing entirely to realize that your dad manufactured that moment just so he could use it to portray himself a certain way.

I loved that Bob kept his promise/threat to Paddy about tap dancing at his funeral. I really enjoyed their friendship. I'd be all for Paddy being the subject of the next season!

[sistermagpie]

25 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

While I understand Ron (or anyone else in a relationship with Bob or Gwen) feeling like the third wheel/consolation prize, it seemed like an odd breaking point for him. As Ron pointed out, one of the reasons they never followed through on their "let's get away from the city permanently" plan was because Gwen was always working (or looking for work). I think part of her motivation was truly what she said more than once: that she wanted to have enough money so that Nicole would always be provided for.

But I think the other part of her motivation is that she was an actress and working fulfilled her in a way like nothing else did. If there was a job that someone was willing to give her, she wanted to take it. As a fellow actor, I thought Ron would understand that drive, so it seemed strange that agreeing to do a tour of Chicago was what annoyed Ron and made him think that Gwen couldn't say no to Bob. 

But then, Ron (who I think was just an amalgam of people so not a real guy) wasn't that great an actor. Later we hear that he had a few lines on a show in LA, right? Isn't that him? So he maybe didn't have her drive.

That's another thing I found sort of interesting about Nicole. It must be really hard to be living with two such larger than life artists when you yourself just aren't that. Ad again, I think the drive was part of it. So she's in the awkward position of being a third wheel even in a movie that's about her. She's being self-destructive but even she can't compete with her parents even in the drug use and acting out department.

I did have a moment of wondering about the moment where we see Gwen making sauce for herself back in her apartment, underlining how she's now alone--in the end it was basically just her and Bob. But in large part the two of them had really good relationships with Paddy and Neil and especially each other. It was nice that her boyfriend got married and had kids but Gwen was too old for that anyway when they met.

MW really got me in that death scene. She did such a good job staying in Gwen's voice even in a moment like that, as if even in a crisis of course she was still Gwen Verdon on stage. 

I didn't know about LMM either and loved it--funny how much he captured RS despite not looking anything like him really. (That sparkle shirt is so iconic, though!) 

[Quilt Fairy]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Now faced with the prospect of his own death in act three, he suddenly realizes that it was Gwen all along. She was the one for him from the start because she was the only woman who was ever his true equal as a creator, as an artist. And he knows that he squandered everything with her. He knows he shot it all to hell. But now he's ready to change. He's ready to give up the broads, yeah? He's ready to to get his act together and and spend the rest of his life with his soul mate, with his collaborator, with the mother of his child if he can just get out of this goddamn hospital bed. But it's too late. He doesn't make it. He dies. Roll credits. See? Transformation and tragedy. It's moving. That's your story.

This is how they started the episode, and I think that's what you see on Bob's face when he's laying on the sidewalk at the very end: Damn, it was Gwen all along.

Out of curiosity, what did they do with the opening performance of Sweet Charity that night?  Did they cancel or go on? 

Edited May 29, 2019 by Quilt Fairy

[JeanneH]

Lynn Manuel Miranda (apologies, I'm sure I mangled his name) was live tweeting every episode. Last night's was especially good as Nicole and two of her sons were with him. He tweeted some while it was on, then live streamed with Nicole during commercials and after it was over. Nicole seemed pretty cool, I thought.  She choreographed (reconstructed) the father/daughter dance from ATJ.

An excellent miniseries, and all the awards to Michelle!

Edited May 29, 2019 by JeanneH

[Neurochick]

They didn't show Gwen with her cats, my understanding is she was a cat fancier.

Someone asked if I knew Nicole growing up; I didn't.  She's four years younger than me, I don't think she went to my school, though it was a private school on the west side of Manhattan, but there were/are dozens of them.

I really enjoyed this series, I'm sure it's introduced people to Bob Fosse and Gwen Verdon.  To this day I remember seeing that commercial for Pippen that I linked earlier, as a child.  It was the first in a series of commercials that used to air for various Broadway shows.

I think the charm of Fosse was that he was very talented and very fucked up and that combination is very attractive to some people.

[raven]

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I did have a moment of wondering about the moment where we see Gwen making sauce for herself back in her apartment, underlining how she's now alone--in the end it was basically just her and Bob.

I thought that scene was more quiet and less lonely (not saying you thought she was lonely).  Bob, it seems, could not be alone (when the woman he just had sex with is leaving to meet her friends and he asks if could go as well, for example) but Gwen could be alone or she could be with someone.

Nicole and Bob dancing to "Mr. Bojangles" was a really nice scene.  I think that was the only time I bought the Nicole actress as a teenager.  I know it hurt Nicole later on, but that didn't take away from what it was when we first saw it.

9 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

But I'm going to have to give my boy Sam Rockwell equal props.  First of all, his partnership with Michelle Williams was amazing. 

I agree that they were amazing together.  I think Sam Rockwell as Fosse has the less flashy (not sure if that's the right word) part.  Gwen runs the gamut of emotions but Bob kind of stays the same throughout.   Gwen has love, anger, ambition, joy, sadness, heartbreak, exhaustion, regret...Bob has ambition, obsession with work, selfishness, fear (in the hospital), love.  I know I'm forgetting some but my point is that Michelle is given more to work with, though Sam's task of making Fosse if not exactly likable than at least understandable is no small feat either.   Though neither was perfect, Gwen was a more rounded person than Bob.

Sam's soft tap dance at Paddy's funeral was sad and beautiful.  The death scene and Michelle's performance as Gwen there were also excellent.

I wondered at the end if Nicole was harboring a bit of unresolved "something" towards her mother.  Bob is not expected to be a good parent to teen Nicole and Gwen wasn't going to really drag her back to live with her, but when Ron asks if Nicole is late coming home, the way Gwen says they compromised on her curfew seems almost careless.  Though I understand this is Fosse/Verdon so the show wasn't going to go beyond Gwen without Bob, there should have been more at the end about Gwen's accomplishments after he died.  I mean, we get all this info about "Nicole got into drugs, got clean, got married and had 3 kids and they bought a house" and I'm thinking "I don't care" and we get a small blurb about Gwen moving in with Nicole and then dying two weeks later.  That was lacking to me, not exactly disrespectful, but we really needed more there about the things Gwen did after Bob died.

Anyway, I knew a little about Fosse and nothing about Verdon so am very glad I watched this - it was excellent throughout and I hope is rewarded come awards time.

Here is an interesting interview with Nicole.

[sistermagpie]

12 minutes ago, raven said:

I thought that scene was more quiet and less lonely (not saying you thought she was lonely).  Bob, it seems, could not be alone (when the woman he just had sex with is leaving to meet her friends and he asks if could go as well, for example) but Gwen could be alone or she could be with someone.

Yeah, when I saw it it seemed like a cliche of "she made choices and now she's alone" but the story really didn't feel like that so I thought I might have been projecting because that's what scenes like that often mean. The series felt more like just life itself, that the two of them had close relationships for many years and sadly some of the people died.

Though again that's why it's a shame not to hear more about Gwen's life after Bob. if he died in the early 80s and she died in 2000 that's decades to cover, but with Joan Simon dying and then Paddy it almost felt like they were at the stage of life when people would have been dying off. They just weren't actually that old.

I felt bad for Star 80 getting dismissed again as just the movie that got him bad reviews. I liked it when I saw it and now would like to see it again.

[alexvillage]

19 minutes ago, raven said:

Nicole and Bob dancing to "Mr. Bojangles" was a really nice scene.  I think that was the only time I bought the Nicole actress as a teenager.  I know it hurt Nicole later on, but that didn't take away from what it was when we first saw it.

I liked that too. It is in the book and as I was reading it I was imagining how that would be. Nicely done.

there are some things in the show that seem to be coming from Nicole. How she felt about ATJ and the father/daughter scene, the experiments with drugs. 

The episode felt rushed to me. A lot was left out and not enough Lin-Manuel Miranda and ATJ - although the Bye Bye Life scene was very well done. I think Sam Rockwell was at his best in this one, the emotion right at the right doses at key moments.

[One Imaginary Girl]

The mention of Tom Selleck seemed to be an anachronism. I don't think he was very well known until Magnum PI, which debuted in the 1980-81 season.

[kathe5133]

22 hours ago, Jordan Baker said:

On a somewhat happier note, I did scream just a little when I realized Lin-Manuel Miranda was Roy Scheider.

Thank you!  You saved me a trip to Google!  I thought the part of Roy Scheider was well cast.  When I saw Lin-Manuel’s name in the credits, I wondered who he played.  Never connected it until I read you post!

[Popples]

When I saw "Roy Scheider" at first, I thought, that actor's not a bad likeness. Then there was the close up of him and there was freaking out! Lin kept that secret so well, while people might not have recognized him, I'm surprised it didn't leak because...

It was hilarious when Lin was talking with Nicole about the sequined shirt and that his "chest wig" made Nicole laugh since he only has like 3 chest hairs in real life.

[ebk57]

7 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Out of curiosity, what did they do with the opening performance of Sweet Charity that night?  Did they cancel or go on?

The show went on.  They didn't tell the cast until after it was over. 

[Door County Cherry]

I was a little disappointed that the show ended with Bob's death without really highlighting that Gwen did continue to work and was even recognized on her own as an actress.  Or that Gwen and Anne became close.  And considering that Chicago was such a passion project of Gwen's, a coda about it becoming the longest running musical would have been a perfect capper.

But the text on the screen felt a bit too perfunctory and incomplete.  So even though I give the show props for making Gwen such an important role as a way to recognize her, ending with Bob's death ties her too much to him. I get that the point of the show was their partnership but I do think she deserved a little more acknowledgement at the end. 

16 hours ago, alexvillage said:

I think it is totally possible Ann is in denial. As I mentioned, the ATJ DVD has a special feature that is a conversation between Ann and the girl who plays Michelle and I had the same feeling, that she was somehow trying to soften the terrible about Fosse - his womanizing that got to a point of sexual assault. "Normal" for the times or not, "common practice" among artists or not, trying to make it light of that is bullshit. About the hospital sex, maybe it was an exaggeration to show how his mind worked. I don't really have an opinion on that.

I don't know if she's in denial but anyone who enters into a consensual relationship and doesn't feel pressured to enter into that relationship is going to have a different perspective.  I read the interview with her and she felt like she could say "no." The show kind of touched on that when Gwen told Bob that Anne knew she was good enough to say "no."  

But for every incredible talent like Anne who has confidence, there's another dancer who is good but not the best or is the best but insecure.  That's where the pressure to say "yes" becomes stronger even if Bob himself wasn't consciously thinking about the quid pro quo. 

I also think there's a tendency to treasure our life experiences who made us who we are and think everyone should go through them.  It's like some of the older French actresses and their reaction to the #metoo movement referring how it took away people's ability to flirt.  Which is so not the case. No one is talking about simple flirting.  

13 hours ago, AriAu said:

So.....the big lesson from this show is not to piss off your kids since they may paint you in the worst light possible on FX!  Bob Fosse must have been truly charming in real life, but I saw none of it. Gwen Verdon was beloved by those who worked with her (according to all accounts) but she gave very little of that to her child in terms of real caring and affection.

I've read two interviews with Nicole about this mini-series and I don't think there was a vindictiveness in her approach.  She seems amazingly self-reflective about watching the series in that she sees things, like her dad taking drugs in front of her, that she normalized as a child but now, as an adult, sees how messed up it was.  But she also seems to have a lot of love for both.  Gwen moved in with her to take care of her family when Nicole's husband died.  (Gwen died eight weeks later.)  And she's the one who pushed the show to include her mother's perspective as well. 

I'm actually pretty amazed at how multi-dimensional she let both parents be portrayed as. 

7 minutes ago, ebk57 said:

The show went on.  They didn't tell the cast until after it was over.

Alex, I'll take "what you probably couldn't get away with today in the theater?"  You know TMZ would have that published and tweeted before he even arrived at the hospital.  And as much as they say "no phones" people would eventually get it because they have their phones. 

[Valentine]

11 hours ago, raven said:

Here is an interesting interview with Nicole.

I wondered if I'd slept through their trip to Disneyland on the show. The actors really got the body language down. That looks just like Sam Rockwell. Great article. 

[Rinaldo]

13 hours ago, One Imaginary Girl said:

The mention of Tom Selleck seemed to be an anachronism. I don't think he was very well known until Magnum PI, which debuted in the 1980-81 season.

That's one of those names I found myself thinking "That's probably true, but it'll sound too early for Tom Selleck, so maybe they should've changed it." By the late 1970s, he was becoming visible enough (he really "popped" in a couple of Rockford Files episodes) that he was one of the young-leading-man types who was routinely being considered for movies and TV. He was first choice for Raiders of the Lost Ark, for instance, but it turned out he had just signed for Magnum. 

Now that it's over, I can stop hinting around about A Chorus Line, as it turned out they never used that story -- and it seems like it would have been a natural for the penultimate episode had they not decided to confine it to the hospital story. It's hinted at only when friends are telling Bob that Chicago will win all the awards and he mutters "tell that to Michael Bennett." The two were the same season of course, and ACL was getting all the press.

But the crowning insult was when Bennett petitioned to have Donna McKechnie (to most perceptions, one of an ensemble cast -- that was the whole point of the show) considered for Tony Award purposes in the Leading Actress category (the one category in which Chicago had felt safe from competition). And he succeeded. Gwen and Chita were so outraged by this, they refused to perform on the Tony telecast. It was left to Jerry Orbach to represent the show with "All I Care About Is Love." And indeed, that season represents one of the classic shut-outs: Chicago was nominated for 11 awards, and won none. Surely it was in their minds afterwards that, respectable as their two-year run was, it might have been longer had they had a better break with awards and visibility.

[JeanneH]

from The Ringer (via Primetimer):

‘Fosse/Verdon’ Was at Its Best When It Was Doing What Bob Fosse Couldn’t Do Himself -
FX’s expansive portrait of two showbiz greats thrived when it refused to genuflect at the altar of their history and let Sam Rockwell and Michelle Williams cook

There's a few interesting points made in the article, but the one I found most interesting concerned those countdown cards scattered throughout - I had never considered that they weren't counting down to Bob's death, they were counting down to the end of Bob and Gwen's partnership (yes, I know, one causes the other, but the show is named "Fosse/Verdon")

Edited May 30, 2019 by JeanneH

[luna1122]

14 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I felt bad for Star 80 getting dismissed again as just the movie that got him bad reviews. I liked it when I saw it and now would like to see it again.

I'm confused, cuz I thought Star 80 was well regarded. Even now, it has an 83% on rotten tomatoes and a 63% on Metacritic.....these are not bad reviews. I know it got some, somebody called it  'Bob Fosse's latest stinker', but it also made both siskel and ebert's top ten list and Eric Roberts was nominated for several best actor awards.

I thought the girl playing teen Nicole looked very much like her.

I recognized LMM immediately but at first I convinced myself it wasn't really him. He sure seemed to be having a blast.

I have enjoyed this, and think Williams and Rockwell were spectacular. But I'm oddly relieved that it's over.

[kathe5133]

Well, that's over.  I'm not sure how I feel about the entire thing.  The acting was stellar, the dancing by the leads, not so much.  Despite the phenomenal acting, I'm still bothered that those portraying two of the most iconic dancers, are not dancers.  I do think they pulled it off, but........  What I took a way was, i guess is to "be careful what you wish for.."  In the late 70's I would have traded places with Gwen Verdon, Ann Reinking, or even Nicole Fosse in a heartbeat.  After watching this I don't think they really led enviable lives.  Maybe for some, but despite the fantastic highs, there were some awful lows.  It seems Ann Reinking has found peace as well as Nicole and I'm glad for that, but found Gwen and Bob's stories just sad.

[sadie]

I really loved this whole thing. I’m now reading the book Fosse. Michelle and Sam had me mesmerized throughout and the final ep definitely had me tearing up. I agree I wish we had gotten a bit more about Gwen after Bob dies but it’s a small complaint. Well done start to finish. 

[Loandbehold]

12 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

I've read two interviews with Nicole about this mini-series and I don't think there was a vindictiveness in her approach.  She seems amazingly self-reflective about watching the series in that she sees things, like her dad taking drugs in front of her, that she normalized as a child but now, as an adult, sees how messed up it was.  But she also seems to have a lot of love for both.  Gwen moved in with her to take care of her family when Nicole's husband died.  (Gwen died eight weeks later.)  And she's the one who pushed the show to include her mother's perspective as well. 

I'm actually pretty amazed at how multi-dimensional she let both parents be portrayed as. 

Not only this, but I was wondering how, given Nicole's role with the show, Ann Reinking was going to be treated. Even if young Nicole enjoyed spending time w/ her, I could see an older Nicole resenting Ann for "breaking up her parent's marriage." Obviously Ann didn't have a large role in the show, but she still came across as a nice person who was also acknowledged for her talent.

I would have liked to have seen more of Gwen's life, but I understand why they didn't show it once Bob died. This story was about their partnership. While we got snippets of Bob's life prior to meeting Gwen, we really didn't see much of what he was doing both in the theatre and on film, prior to Sweet Charity. So, once Bob dies, their story ends and we got the few words briefing us on what happened in the ensuing years.

I was surprised to see LMM as Roy Scheider as Joe Gideon, but it didn't take me too long to recognize him. That may just be b/c I knew he was involved w/ the show.

I was awestruck by both MW's and SR's performances. I can see that NLB was good in the role, but I didn't really know who Paddy Chayefsky was (except that he wrote Network) and don't believe I ever saw him speak, so I had no frame of reference for the character.

I wonder why they used a "composite" of people for Gwen's post-separation boyfriend. Were they unable to get the guy's approval to use his name? If he's still alive, I could see that he might think this was invading his privacy. And, if he's not alive, I can see his family not wanting him depicted. Still, I am curious.

[iMonrey]

I felt like Nicole's character was under-served in this production. Part of the problem was casting and the change of actresses, but overall I never got a feel for what was going on with her and the writing seemed like an afterthought. I felt like I understood Gwen, and I understood Bob as much as anyone can. But I never really felt like I understood Nicole. The attention the show spent on her felt superficial and perfunctory. It might have been better if they hadn't even tried to cover her drug and alcohol problems and kept her in the background if they weren't really going to fully develop her story.

I hate to say it but Michelle William's one weakness here was her singing. I'm not very familiar with Gwen Verdon since she was primarily known for her stage work but I do have You Tube and Michelle Williams just wasn't the singer that Verdon was. It was probably best that they kept her singing to a minimum.

That said I'm sure she's a shoo-in for an Emmy nom if not a win, as is Sam Rockwell. Acting from both of them is made the series so compelling.

[ichbin]

On 5/28/2019 at 11:58 PM, memememe76 said:

Michelle Williams has been masterful.

Prior to this I have never enjoyed any of her performances.  I thought she was great in this though and will be completely deserving of any nominations and awards she gets for this production.