Fosse/Verdon - General Discussion

[tennisgurl]

The 70s were a delightfully bizarre time in Hollywood where all kinds of rules were being broken, new ideas were being put fourth, and audiences, dealing with everything from Vietnam to Watergate, were looking for films to challenge them. The Hays Code was almost gone, the studio system had imploded, and "New Hollywood" was starting, a bunch of young filmmakers who were rather anti authority/anti studio/hyper realistic in their styles of filming, and how they made their moves. Gritty realism was the name of the game almost the whole decade (I can almost always tell a 70s movie just by the gritty look of it!), people clamored for stories with sex, violence, and anti heroes, and studios basically let all of these super artsy quirky genius perfectionist directors do whatever they wanted, as it was bringing in the big bucks. Cabaret would fit right in.

[Nidratime]

24 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

The 70s were a delightfully bizarre time in Hollywood where all kinds of rules were being broken, new ideas were being put fourth, and audiences, dealing with everything from Vietnam to Watergate, were looking for films to challenge them. The Hays Code was almost gone, the studio system had imploded, and "New Hollywood" was starting, a bunch of young filmmakers who were rather anti authority/anti studio/hyper realistic in their styles of filming, and how they made their moves. Gritty realism was the name of the game almost the whole decade (I can almost always tell a 70s movie just by the gritty look of it!), people clamored for stories with sex, violence, and anti heroes, and studios basically let all of these super artsy quirky genius perfectionist directors do whatever they wanted, as it was bringing in the big bucks. Cabaret would fit right in.

I agree. But there were also a lot of male buddy films in the 70's like The Sting. Women's roles were either sidekicks to men or hookers. I remember Jane Fonda getting the Academy Award playing a hooker and Louise Fletcher getting the same for a role that was barely on the screen. Not a good time for women in film.

[sistermagpie]

25 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

I remember Jane Fonda getting the Academy Award playing a hooker

Gotta stick up for Klute. I was surprised at how much I liked it when I saw it. Prostitutes can definitely deserve Oscars. Jodie Foster also won for playing a hooker. Gritty included a lot of sex workers.

So far the show definitely has my interest. I so far like the conversations about the choices being made--they're interesting and it's easy to see how Fosse and Verdon are right without it seeming like people are being set up to show how much better they are. That number really does require the right gorilla costume and it was easy to believe people would push for standard musicals. I liked Gwen reeling off those giant flops Hollywood in that awkward transition into modern movies.

Sometimes the exposition is a little clunky. Like it was a shame they couldn't just have made it clear visually that he was picking the hardest-ridden prostitutes instead of having to have a woman announce that he only picked the old, ugly ones and that wasn't fair.

[Nidratime]

3 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Gotta stick up for Klute. I was surprised at how much I liked it when I saw it. Prostitutes can definitely deserve Oscars. Jodie Foster also won for playing a hooker. Gritty included a lot of sex workers.

There were not a lot of female centric films that was critically acclaimed in the 70s. I lived it. I hated it.

[Door County Cherry]

1 hour ago, JasmineFlower said:

I think the non-linear storytelling is an interesting choice here and speaks very much to a theatre specific audience more than a mainstream one. Maybe that's what they wanted, but given the level of ads for the show, I thought maybe they wanted mainstream. 

I think non-linear storytelling, especially the way it was done in this episode, is far more of a TV trope than a theatrical one because you can put up the chyrons with the dates or anything to signpost where we are in the story. 

8 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Me too. I suspect the show started out at the end in order to connect the main characters to what they were most famous for. It looks like subsequent episodes go back to when they first met. The narrative structure is odd and I don't care for it. That said I did enjoy the episode. 

I agree.  But I also think it was a structural choice to round out the episode.  It started with Sweet Charity and while they never clarified what the episode was building up to with the 19 years before, 16 years before....8 minutes before stuff.  My spec is that it's  (and it's historical knowledge but I'll put it in spoilers for those who don't want to know)

Spoiler

the event they were building up to is Fosse's death.  He and Gwen were going to the opening of a revival of Sweet Charity when he suffered a heart attack outside of the hotel. 

 So I think it worked for one episode but it won't work if it continues.  And this will still be a little strange overall.

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

There were not a lot of female centric films that was critically acclaimed in the 70s. I lived it. I hated it.

Wow, I was just checking all the Best Actress winners because I couldn't remember them. I had thought Louise Fletcher won best *supporting* actress for Cuckoo's Nest. That seemed like the type of role that would totally get nominated for that. But she was Best Actress? Whoa. Yeah, that was a weak crop there. The roles really get stronger as the 70s end.

Liza's is the only performance nominated for that year that I've seen.

The weird thing about a lot of 70s movies for me, even ones that I saw at the time (I was a kid so my perspective was limited) is that when I watch them now I'm often really confused by the women's place in the world. The prostitutes sometimes make the most sense because I get how they support themselves. In some other movies there seems to be a weird idea that all women just sort of get supported by men in some way. Years ago somebody made a movie from a script from the 70s, updating references to set it in the present. The reviews said even though there was nothing specifically anachronistic in the dialogue the whole movie felt so weird and they figured it out because the women characters had no lives.

[Nidratime]

7 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Wow, I was just checking all the Best Actress winners because I couldn't remember them. I had thought Louise Fletcher won best *supporting* actress for Cuckoo's Nest. That seemed like the type of role that would totally get nominated for that. But she was Best Actress? Whoa. Yeah, that was a weak crop there. The roles really get stronger as the 70s end.

Liza's is the only performance nominated for that year that I've seen.

The weird thing about a lot of 70s movies for me, even ones that I saw at the time (I was a kid so my perspective was limited) is that when I watch them now I'm often really confused by the women's place in the world. The prostitutes sometimes make the most sense because I get how they support themselves. In some other movies there seems to be a weird idea that all women just sort of get supported by men in some way. Years ago somebody made a movie from a script from the 70s, updating references to set it in the present. The reviews said even though there was nothing specifically anachronistic in the dialogue the whole movie felt so weird and they figured it out because the women characters had no lives.

Edited April 11, 2019 by Nidratime
Did not answer.

[Nidratime]

And note that the Hidden Figures story could've been told at that time. The facts were there. Women were making major contributions in science, law, politics, culture, but no films were made until now.

[JasmineFlower]

40 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

I think non-linear storytelling, especially the way it was done in this episode, is far more of a TV trope than a theatrical one because you can put up the chyrons with the dates or anything to signpost where we are in the story. 

You misunderstood what I meant. Maybe I should've left off that middle part of the audience they were targeting to make it more clear. I don't think the non-linear comes from theatre or appeals to that specific audience. I think it's a more confusing way to tell a story and this one will not make a ton of sense if you're completely unfamiliar with the real-life people. That's why I found it an interesting choice. Not necessarily a good one if mainstream is the goal. Hopefully that makes more sense. I agree, that non-linear storytelling has its roots in TV and I'd also say film, not theatre.

Edited April 11, 2019 by JasmineFlower

[memememe76]

Interesting discussion on movies in the 70s. The discussion brings out the fact that the two movies featured in this episode starred women. It had to have helped that Verdon was not only talented, but she was a woman too. There was talk of her working with MacLean, and actual scenes of her working with Liza. And there probably wasn't a ton of female producers either. And she can be ruthless too, cutting out dancers.

Edited April 11, 2019 by memememe76

[scrb]

The Ringer The Watch podcast had an interview with what sounded like the show creator or runner.

He said one problem was to keep viewers interested in Fosse because he behaved badly.

They got to talk at length with Fosse and Verdon's child, who inspired their later works.

Verdon was the widely respected artist while Fosse was a "workman" choreographer when they first met.  But over time, their professional reputations went in opposite directions.

[voiceover]

2 hours ago, Nidratime said:

 Louise Fletcher getting the same for a role that was barely on the screen. Not a good time for women in film.

Eh.  That's selective memory.  Nurse Ratched is one of cinema's Greatest Villains!  The size of the role, contrasted to her venomous presence pervading that film, is something akin to Anthony Hopkins' Lecter in Silence of the Lambs.

Ellen Ripley.  Princess Leia. Annie Hall.  The battling ballerinas of The Turning Point.  

Lots of 70s heroines could kick the asses of the ones who came after.

[TV Diva Queen]

In regard to the title cards...what are we counting down to? Death?  

[Madding crowd]

That seems likely but it is a little dramatic since he wasn’t murdered.

[peacheslatour]

2 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

That seems likely but it is a little dramatic since he wasn’t murdered.

He murdered himself.

[atlantaloves]

That's true, he truly had a death wish.

[iMonrey]

Quote

You need to immerse yourself in movies of the period. They were MUCH more daring then later movies and especially early 80s films. Not just musicals but regular movies too. 

I'm well versed in movies of that era.  I think I probably saw Cabaret when I was a kid - an "edited for tv" version that scrubbed a lot of the sexual stuff. 

It's true that Midnight Cowboy had won Best Picture in 1970 but bisexuality still wasn't something you were likely to find in "mainstream" movies of that era. The throuple situation with Sally, Brian and Max was especially daring, not to mention a mainstream actor like Michael York playing a character admitting to sleeping with another man. I can see a picture with that kind of storyline getting critical success but not the kind Oscar-winning, mainstream success the movie enjoyed. 

Movies were certainly changing but bisexuality and homosexuality was still not widely acceptable.

[peacheslatour]

Quote

Movies were certainly changing but bisexuality and homosexuality was still not widely acceptable.

In some circles they still aren't, more's the pity.

[Whimsy]

On 4/9/2019 at 11:11 PM, memememe76 said:

I really enjoyed the first episode. I have to say, that I not really familiar with the films and people involved. Verdon is especially a blank to me. But I am looking forward to seeing the rest. 

I just caught the first episode.  I'm not familiar at all Fosse's productions, except rudimentary, and even less with anything to do with Verdon.  I obviously know who Fosse is, which is why I thought I'd watch this.  But, to see that she was, at one time, considered more famous than him was weird to me as I've never heard of her.  But, again, I was coming in pretty blank.  But, I don't think I'm going to continue to watch for reasons stated below.  

On 4/10/2019 at 3:11 AM, voiceover said:

I feel like I jumped into the middle of something, and I'm looking all around me, trying to take it in.

I also felt like I jumped into the middle of something but it's so confusing that I can't make heads or tails of it.  I think the problem is that the creators of this thought we were all going in as huge fans and that's not the case.  I like musicals but I don't LOVE musicals and I never really went to the theater (mostly because of cost and proximity to good theater- neither of which I had).  I would've been very interested in seeing a linear storytelling of these two characters so I could experience the rise, trials and tribulations with them so I could feel a part of the story.  Instead, I am just expected to know what they are talking about or what they have already gone through up to that point and I just don't. 

On 4/10/2019 at 12:34 PM, meep.meep said:

I am intensely weary of non-linear productions, that seem to exist just for the sake of doing them.  If every episode switches between 4 or 5 decades, it's going to be exhausting.  There's no good point to it here.  Innaritu uses it with purpose in a movie, but isn't wedded to it (Birdman), and he's the best at it.

IMO, there are VERY few non-linear productions that are successful to me.  I typically very much dislike them.  I can count on one-hand the times I found it an interesting and NECESSARY way to tell the story. 

[ratgirlagogo]

On 4/11/2019 at 12:27 AM, voiceover said:

On 4/10/2019 at 9:27 PM, Nidratime said:

 Louise Fletcher getting the same for a role that was barely on the screen. Not a good time for women in film.

Eh.  That's selective memory.  Nurse Ratched is one of cinema's Greatest Villains!  The size of the role, contrasted to her venomous presence pervading that film, is something akin to Anthony Hopkins' Lecter in Silence of the Lambs.

Ellen Ripley.  Princess Leia. Annie Hall.  The battling ballerinas of The Turning Point.  

Lots of 70s heroines could kick the asses of the ones who came after.

Here's a listing of the Oscar nominees for the 1970's.

https://www.filmsite.org/oscars70.html

Clearly some years are stronger for women's roles than others but overall it's just not true that there weren't a wide variety of women characters, as you can see from the listings for Best Actress and Best Supporting Actress. 

[atlantaloves]

Don't forget Midnight Cowboy back in the 60's.....it won best picture I believe and it was rated X because of homosexuality. 

[spaceghostess]

I was predisposed to enjoy this, having grown up on old movies/musicals that made me flove the Fosse/Verdon artistic partnership. Also, Cabaret is everything. I saw it at Studio 54 years ago with Michael C. Hall as The Emcee and I think Fosse's film is maybe the best-ever adaptation of a show. Mein Herr is one of my favorites and I really liked the way the episode used it. Kelli Barrett is doing a serviceable job, although (superficial comment) I kinda wish she had the less-cut seventies body that Liza did.

I figured Rockwell and Williams would be just fine, and they are. For anyone who hasn't seen the jaw-dropping spectacle of Fosse and Verdon dancing together, here's a primo example:

Who's Got the Pain?

When my kids were babies and got cranky, I used to play this and sing along to snap them out of it. Worked every time (for all of us.)

Edited April 14, 2019 by spaceghostess
Proper nouns

[Kaiju Ballet]

I was really glad to see the daughter (Nicole Fosse?) listed as one of the exec producers. The portrayal of what her life was like as a child was pretty brutal.

Michelle Williams totally nailed it. I loved how she did the "dancer-whispering." and I'm in rapture over the dancing, music numbers and behind-the-scenes goodness!

The production and clothing design brought to mind the same level of detail in Mad Men. Gorgeous!

The structure does take a bit of getting used to. The commercial breaks don't help with the time jumps. That being said, I can't wait until the next episode! 

[Thalia]

I was a tween/teen in the 70s, and while I still love the music, it wasn't a period I particularly enjoyed living through and when I see a "prestige" film from the time, I remember why.  Looking back on it, my opinion is that a combination of Vietnam, the student movement, Watergate, and Stagnation inspired a lot of the movies a grittier, more depressing feel.  It was also before the Reagan Revolution and the conservative reaction, and even some of the stuff on TV was more daring than what you'd see in the 90s or 00s.  Soap, Hill Street Blues.  Cabaret, which was staged in the 60s and filmed in the 70s fit that mold.  

Oh, and women didn't have fake boobs, and it seemed like none of them wore bras.  Even when I watch reruns of the Love Boat, I start ranting, why aren't any of the women wearing foundation garments?  🙂  But I digress.  

I watched the first fifteen minutes and I was losing interest so I came here to see if the show was worth watching.  I guess it is.  I'll go give it another try!

Edited April 14, 2019 by Thalia

[ElectricBoogaloo]

S1.E2: Who's Got the Pain?

Quote

Rising Broadway star Gwen Verdon meets ambitious young choreographer Bob Fosse. Their lives will never be the same. Written by Steven Levenson; Directed by Thomas Kail.

Promo:

This episode's namesake (normally I say that if you ever have the opportunity to see a choreographer perform their own work, you should watch them because that's how they wanted it to look, but in this case I'd say to watch Gwen because I think that she is exactly how he wanted the choreography to look!):

Clips:

A perfect match:

Rehearsal:

Original air date: 4/16/19

Edited April 24, 2019 by ElectricBoogaloo

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Because Lin-Manuel is one of the producers of Fosse/Verdon, the various Hamilton companies did a special dance challenge (at the moment, only the And Peggy company is MIA).

Broadway:

Angelica tour:

Philip tour:

London:

Chicago:

[ElectricBoogaloo]

A few more promos and interviews!

First look (for some reason, this video isn't embedding but it's interviews with the Fosse/Verdon cast and crew about the show):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42ltOGHeRk4

Evan Handler (Hal Prince):

Sam Rockwell (Bob Fosse):

[peacheslatour]

The first time I ever saw Sam Rockwell was in Hitchhiker's guide. He was perfect as the cartoonish Zaphod Beeblebrox. Then he was kind a forgettable character in Galaxy Quest but I never thought he would rise to be one of those actors who completely disappear into the roles they play. He is the next Gary Oldman or Daniel Day Lewis.

[Neurochick]

On 4/10/2019 at 1:06 PM, iMonrey said:

I recently saw Cabaret, maybe for the first time, and I can't believe it was a mainstream success in the early 1970s. It's very weird, foreign, and sexually daring for its time. I can believe critics would have found it engaging and unique but not that mainstream audiences would have made it profitable. 

My mother took me to see Cabaret when it first came out.  

There's a line in this episode when Gwen is telling the producer that people aren't going to the movies to escape anymore, they're looking for something real.  That's very true.  In the 60's and 70's people saw the war in Vietnam on the nightly news, and I remember how they used to list the casualties.  Movies made in the 70's were a LOT grittier than movies made today.  I think people go to the movies to escape today, not to look for anything real.

[JeanneH]

If this is reminding you of All That Jazz, remember ATJ was pretty much a Fosse autobiography. I recently read Fosse, the biography Fosse/Verdon is based on, and it makes that point very clear, if there ever was a doubt. As for the jumping around in the timeline, the book's first chapter would normally have been the last chapter, but that's all of that that happens - the rest is chronological. As for why the miniseries started where it did, I speculate it was to give something to draw an audience from the beginning. Would child-Fosse taking tap lessons, not to meet Verdon for 25-ish years draw viewers? Maybe dedicated fans, IMO.

Edit: Who was playing Chita Rivera and Paula Kelly in Hey Big Spender?

The book uses the same title card format for chapter titles. I'll spoiler for those who don't want to know

Spoiler

You are correct - the titles are a countdown to Fosse's death.

Edited April 16, 2019 by JeanneH

[Julyolo]

On Broadway there was Oh! Calcutta and Hair. Having been an adult during the 60s and 70s, I find current times much more repressive. Fosse and Verdon were working and living in the epicenter of progressiveness. She was quite aware that he has been married twice before he started his relationship with her. I would characterize him as a sadist, and her as a masochist.

[voiceover]

The fact that this series opened with Fosse's most famous work as the frame, is the biggest "Duh!" so far.  Gotta have a hook, and nonlinear is Teh Thing (though it's neither new nor original -- as fashion is cyclical, so is film).

But the scene of them meeting, and Bob "auditioning" Gwen for Yankees, is proof that this series didn't need Cabaret -- as fierce and familiar and brilliant as it is -- to draw in an audience.  

I could not take my eyes off those two.  And I was exhausted, cranky, and planning to watch online!  Then I thought: Eh.  I'll just peek at the first few minutes.

And I was lost.

This scene was everything.  Two artists -- two geniuses -- meeting & melding & arriving at something greater than their parts.

Reese's Peanut Butter Cups; Oreo cookies; champagne cocktail; Fosse & Verdon.  How could I ever imagine one without the other???

Hats off, Michelle and Sam.  Speechless. 

[Chippings]

We are old enough to have a pretty good idea of the chronology of Fosse and Verdon, and are big musical geeks.  The madly dizzy editing, however, even has us confused.  Scene in the ladies' room (??) between McCracken and Verdon, in snatches while 'Mambo' is being performed, when is it taking place?  The final departure from the seashore - cutting to four or five other events as she leaves - 'way too self-indulgent on the part of the director.  (And we do know who the director is and some of his (ahem) recent work.

But when you can snatch the story from all the cuts, it's a wonderful story.  And seeing the dance numbers recreated so well is a delight.  

[GaT]

I'm getting bored.

[lavenderblue]

It was one thing when I thought the title cards would maintain the theme used in the first episode, but tonight's were just too cute for my liking. ("2,9XX days until Joan McCracken's death"? Why?)

I was also disappointed by how standard romantic angst this episode felt. The bits of creation-in-progress were more what I wanted -- and what I was expecting after the premiere -- but virtually the entire hour was two decades of relationship drama and while yes, that was real and a real element of Fosse and Verdon's lives, it wasn't anything I'd have chosen to tune in for without significantly more of the musical element to offset it. Hoping next week's is livelier.

Edited April 17, 2019 by lavenderblue

[ruby24]

I had to look up what exactly Joan McCracken's "illness" was, only to find out that it was Type 1 diabetes.

Boy, they really talked around that, didn't they? You wouldn't have a clue based on the vague way they alluded to some mysterious sickness that causes her an inability to walk at random times? What?

I'm sorry, I'm a Type 1 diabetic myself and I cannot stand it when it's obvious that something has no idea how to portray symptoms of this condition or even what they look like. I know it was a lot harder to treat back then (especially Type 1, it would have been awful), but insulin existed, so she must have been using that at least. With no ability to check blood sugar levels though (or account for food with insulin probably), most likely she would have had fainting spells due to sudden lows- but symptoms of highs are constant thirst and urination, which is less visible.

I'm not sure what that incident was supposed to be portraying in the rehearsal room, where just all of a sudden she's crying and can't walk. It reminded me of that part in Steel Magnolias, where Julia Roberts is perfectly fine and then all of a sudden has a fit and is screaming and throwing things at people until her mom feeds her orange juice against her will. 

Umm, what? Do people really not have any clue what low blood sugar looks like? If you don't faint straight out, you feel faint but you know that you need to eat or drink something (with sugar in it) fast. You're not mentally incapacitated. How do people not know this still?

Edited April 17, 2019 by ruby24

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Joan Simon: I threw a frozen veal chop at Neil's head last week.
Gwen: You didn't!
Joan Simon: Oh, I did.
Gwen: You know, in my marriage, that's called foreplay.
Joan Simon: Neil and I, it's different than you and Bobby. We're not competing.
Gwen: Bob and I aren't competing.
Joan Simon: When we first started going together, Neil came to see me dance at one of Martha's shows. At the party afterwards, all the attention was on me. No one even looked at him. This was before Neil was Neil. I had to make a point of introducing him. "This is Neil Simon. He's a phenomenal young playwright!" You could just see their eyes glaze over. Frankly, I think a part of him was relieved when I stopped dancing. It meant he never had to play wife at a cocktail party ever again.
Gwen: And you don't miss it? Dancing?
Joan Simon: Nah.
Gwen: See, I just can't understand that.
Joan Simon: Well, I was never Gwen Verdon.

Gwen: The funny thing is I've always loved baseball. When I was ten, I told my father that I wanted to grow up to be a pitcher for the Boston Braves just like Babe Ruth.
Hal Prince: What did he say?
Gwen: He said, "The Boston Braves are the worst team in baseball and Babe Ruth should have hung up his cleats six years ago when he could still hit the ball."

Gwen: Slouch? I don't think ever heard that word from a choreographer before.

Gwen: I'm not moving?
Bob: What's sexier than standing still?

Bob: Where'd you learn that?
Gwen: I was dancing burlesque houses when I was 14.
Bob: I was 13.

Bob: I couldn't think without you, you understand? I want to come home. I'm out of business without you.
Gwen: You skipped a section, Bob. There's the part where you swear it didn't mean anything. You were lonely, drinking too much, working too hard.
Bob: I'm in love with her.
Gwen: Oh, no, you're not. With the translator?
Bob: That doesn't change how way I feel about you. I don't see why it should.
Gwen: Omigawd.
Bob: You're right, Gwen. How many times have I lied to you? How many times have I stood there and I promised it's the last time? I don't want to lie to you anymore. I don't want to sneak around. I want to be able to see Hannah and then come home and not bull shit you.
Gwen: Maybe I should find a lover too then, huh? How about that?
Bob: That's not your style.
Gwen: No, of course not.
Bob: You're stronger than I am.
Gwen: Oh, up yours!

Gwen: Bob's a wonderful teacher.
Joanie: You have taught him plenty. I see bits of you all over that stage. That's what Bobby does. He takes what's special in a girl and he makes it his own.
Gwen: Well, that's what they all do, isn't it?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Wow, Bob seems like a really great guy. Hecheats on his sick wife and then makes her answer the door of their hotel room because he's too busy having a temper tantrum to do it himself. And apparently his go-to move is to threaten suicide when he doesn't get his way - that's not at all fucked up and emotionally manipulative.

Seeing how he treated Gwen was sadly not surprising. He wanted her to dump her boyfriend but he didn't want to leave his wife. After his wife finally dumped his ass, he had the nerve to tell Gwen he might need to borrow some money to pay for Joanie's nurse. That's balls.

Then he (unsurprisingly) cheated on Gwen and had the nerve to tell her that he wanted to be honest with her so that he could keep cheating and come home to her instead of sneaking around and lying to her. You know, because he was in love with his latest girlfriend but didn't see why that should affect his relationship with his wife.

Even if she had been like Neil Simon's wife and quit dancing, he would have been cheating on her left and right anyway so there was no way to win.

On 4/15/2019 at 10:26 PM, JeanneH said:

Who was playing Chita Rivera and Paula Kelly in Hey Big Spender?

Bianca Marroquin (on Broadway: Chicago and In the Heights; in Mexico: Beauty and the Beast, Rent, Phantom of the Opera, Sound of Music, Mary Poppins) and Rema Webb (Broadway: Lion King, Book of Mormon, Violet, The Color Purple, Escape to Margaritaville)

[surfer]

1 hour ago, ruby24 said:

I'm not sure what that incident was supposed to be portraying in the rehearsal room, where just all of a sudden she's crying and can't walk. It reminded me of that part in Steel Magnolias, where Julia Roberts is perfectly fine and then all of a sudden has a fit and is screaming and throwing things at people until her mom feeds her orange juice against her will.

She had wet herself and was too embarrassed to stand up. And FWIW there was a "urine sugar test case" on the night stand when Bob got home after his first rehearsal with Gwen.

Edited April 17, 2019 by surfer

[TV Diva Queen]

2 hours ago, surfer said:

She had wet herself and was too embarrassed to stand up. And FWIW there was a "urine sugar test case" on the night stand when Bob got home after his first rehearsal with Gwen.

But by picking her up that way, it highlighted the wet spot. Couldn’t he just put a jacket around her?  So weird. 

[SoSueMe]

On 4/15/2019 at 11:44 AM, peacheslatour said:

The first time I ever saw Sam Rockwell was in Hitchhiker's guide. He was perfect as the cartoonish Zaphod Beeblebrox. Then he was kind a forgettable character in Galaxy Quest but I never thought he would rise to be one of those actors who completely disappear into the roles they play. He is the next Gary Oldman or Daniel Day Lewis.

Sam Rockwell was the sole reason I decided to watch this mini series. He amazes me. The genre and actual performers - Fosse/Verdon weren't familiar to me, but researching on youtube is eye opening. These actors do a really good job. And visually they are made up to be very close in appearance. I don't like the whole non-linear storytelling. Maybe laziness on my part, but they don't make it easy. Just add a date for crying out loud instead of countdowns to multiple events. Geez.

[Blakeston]

I was a little bit disappointed at the writing of the Whatever Lola Wants scene, re: Fosse's explanation of his choreography. The dialogue makes it sound like he choreographed the scene as a sexy striptease.

I wasn't around for the original stage production - but based on the film, at least, what made the choreography of that scene so special was that Fosse didn't go with the obvious seduction angle that virtually any other choreographer would have chosen.

Lola isn't trying to seduce anyone - she's boasting that Joe is her property, so Fosse choreographed it as a disturbing dance of joy. And what with her being a demon, Verdon's movements were intentionally creepy and almost alien-like. 

[meep.meep]

I'm starting to see why the reviews were meh.  I really expect more from the Hamilton guys - they showed us why a now obscure Founding Father was an important figure.  This is just a portrait of a needy self-important guy and his talented enabler.  And they had to know it would be compared to All That Jazz.  After 2 hours, this is clearly losing.

As for the portrayal of Type 1 diabetes, I remember watching an episode of Ironsides in high school in the 70s, that was much more accurate than this.

[tennisgurl]

I admit, I like the jumps in time and the weird count downs from one major life even to the next one. This week the time jumps seemed especially relevant, with Gwen dealing with Bobby's infidelity, while they flash back to when they first met and fell in love...when Bobby was married to someone else. 

I mean, Bobby was consistent, if nothing else. He was married when he met and started courting his second wife, and was still with her when he met and started courting Gwen, and how that he is married to Gwen, he has fallen in love with this translator lady. The only difference is now he apparently wants to date this woman on the side, and still be married to Gwen. I mean, when you got together with your current partner through infidelity, you cant be that surprised when they do it to you later, and neither of the Mrs. Bobby's seem all that shocked by how he is. 

My favorite scenes were definitely when they showed some bits of Damn Yankees (its so cool to see the process of making a show, and to see such accurate bits of it recreated) and when Fosse and Verdon first met and started working together on their first dance. It really felt like a meeting of the minds, where they instantly found their creative spark together and started feeding off of each other and their brilliance. 

The tortured genius dude story we`ve seen a million times before, but the process of creating a classic musical between two people at the top of their professional game? Thats what I am looking for.   

[anniebird]

I am a musical theater aficionado and I'm old so I am very familiar with the two main characters and I think this is fascinating. I keep forgetting that I'm not watching a movie so I'm always surprised by the commercial breaks. I love the non-linear storytelling - it makes this very fresh and unexpected. And there's nothing that can beat a good backstage story.

[Loandbehold]

8 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I'm sorry, I'm a Type 1 diabetic myself and I cannot stand it when it's obvious that something has no idea how to portray symptoms of this condition or even what they look like. I know it was a lot harder to treat back then (especially Type 1, it would have been awful), but insulin existed, so she must have been using that at least. With no ability to check blood sugar levels though (or account for food with insulin probably), most likely she would have had fainting spells due to sudden lows- but symptoms of highs are constant thirst and urination, which is less visible.

I am as well and was diagnosed when people still took one shot of insulin per day and peed on a stick then compared the color on the bottle to figure out how much insulin to take for the day. My grandmother was diagnosed in the 1950s. While thirst and urination are some of the symptoms, people can suffer other symptoms as well depending on how long the situation lasts.

8 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Umm, what? Do people really not have any clue what low blood sugar looks like? If you don't faint straight out, you feel faint but you know that you need to eat or drink something (with sugar in it) fast. You're not mentally incapacitated. How do people not know this still?

Again, from my own experience, this isn't necessarily true. I've had instances where I didn't realize my sugar had dropped but I didn't faint. One time friends said that I could have been doing one of Monty Python's Ministry of Silly Walks. Another time I knew something was happening, but by the time I realized what it was, I couldn't tell anybody. I was opening my mouth, but I was told I was just speaking gibberish. Other times my vision has gone bad or I go manic and can't stop laughing. It's extremely frustrating. Now, these few events have occurred over the course of 40 years and not on a regular basis, but I don't have a problem w/ other possible symptoms being depicted.

12 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I mean, Bobby was consistent, if nothing else. He was married when he met and started courting his second wife, and was still with her when he met and started courting Gwen, and how that he is married to Gwen, he has fallen in love with this translator lady. The only difference is now he apparently wants to date this woman on the side, and still be married to Gwen. I mean, when you got together with your current partner through infidelity, you cant be that surprised when they do it to you later, and neither of the Mrs. Bobby's seem all that shocked by how he is.

Yep, Fosse certainly had a pattern that he followed religiously. The difference is that this latest time he wasn't "moving up" - first wife was in the chorus, second was a star, third was the toast of Broadway and had just won a Tony. Well, that and his new desire to be open about his infidelity while expecting Verdon to remain faithful to him.

14 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

The tortured genius dude story we`ve seen a million times before, but the process of creating a classic musical between two people at the top of their professional game? Thats what I am looking for.   

Right with you here. Watching the depiction of the creative process is fascinating when done well. I enjoyed Verdon going off the steps and improving the routine. A wonderful demonstration of just how brilliant she was. 

[Quilt Fairy]

I loved the movie Damn Yankees when I was a kid. Seeing the original musical being "made" was very interesting.

On the other hand, every scene of little Bobby tap dancing (especially when they just show the feet) could be cut from both episodes, but particularly from this one.  If the book is not like this, it's just self-indulgent by the director. I HATE IT.

[AriAu]

I like the non-linear approach and am enjoying the series, but this episode, for everything that was going on, was somehow boring....not sure how or why, but it was.

They could not possibly made Fosse seem like a bigger asshole than they did in this episode......and I guess that was pretty much true to form!

BUT, the eye opening part was how well Michelle Williams dances....and how poorly Sam Rockwell dances. She's not Gwen Verdon...but almost no one is, but she really, really moves well....and he does not.

The link to the Mambo dance showing the real Fosse and real Verdon was great. Thanks Electric Boogaloo

By the way, in this episode, Michelle Williams slipped a little into the Gwen Verdon accent and sing song phrasing that Verdon had, especially later in life (like when she was Thomas Magnum's mother).

Edited April 17, 2019 by AriAu

[ruby24]

7 hours ago, surfer said:

She had wet herself and was too embarrassed to stand up. And FWIW there was a "urine sugar test case" on the night stand when Bob got home after his first rehearsal with Gwen.

Is that what happened? I was confused because Gwen said later "I didn't know your wife was so sick she couldn't walk."

[iMonrey]

Quote

We are old enough to have a pretty good idea of the chronology of Fosse and Verdon, and are big musical geeks.  The madly dizzy editing, however, even has us confused.  Scene in the ladies' room (??) between McCracken and Verdon, in snatches while 'Mambo' is being performed, when is it taking place?  The final departure from the seashore - cutting to four or five other events as she leaves - 'way too self-indulgent on the part of the director.  

Agreed. The acting and the story itself is compelling enough without the overly clever narrative structure that adds nothing to the show but confusion. I don't know why this has become so trendy and popular among film makers.

I'm also left wondering what's left to cover in this story. Are there eight parts to this? It doesn't seem like there's enough story here to fill eight episodes.