S01.E06: One Shoe

[Ohwell]

22 minutes ago, yourmomiseasy said:

Let's not forget Debra's mom.  She's also one of the villains of this piece.

Yeah, I guess I tried to forget about her.  

4 minutes ago, mythoughtis said:

She should have had her bag already packed and with her when she got the money... and not gone home.  They have process servers or couriers that could get him the divorce papers. 

She really did look stupid standing there, like she was just waiting to be killed.

[mythoughtis]

5 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

Yeah, I guess I tried to forget about her.  

She really did look stupid standing there, like she was just waiting to be killed.

Well then she didn’t look any different than she’s looked during any of this. 

A different poster says she should have just bought new clothes. Which is also true. She seems to have much more money than commmon sense. 

[gotta watch]

This show has me riveted! And I don't care if Roni is a brat, she's my hero. When she and  Debra were in the restaurant, Roni was staring at her so hard, trying to fathom that Debra really was going to leave John. Then she said "Tequila." I cracked up!

[Door County Cherry]

17 minutes ago, newyawk said:

WAS it Alan Ruck? I initially thought it was him, but there was no credit for it on his IMDB and there was no credit for the role under the One Show episode page on IMDB either. 

It was. 

That scene between his lawyer and Eric Bana's John when he brought up a post-nup and the drop dead gaze John gave him in response was perhaps my favorite moment of the series.  That look and Ruck's reaction.  So chilling.  So good.

[newyawk]

But there is no credit for Ruck, so how do you know it was him?

 

NM, a few articles list him as the actor.  Strange that there is no credit for him in that role on IMDB. 

Edited January 1, 2019 by newyawk

[biakbiak]

1 hour ago, newyawk said:

So I don't think it's him, but i reqally would like to know who played that lawyer. 

It is most definitely him. IMDb is not always updated.

[Andromeda]

On 12/30/2018 at 8:55 PM, zillabreeze said:

Yes, seemingly so, but she didn't plan her exit very well.  She should have not done it alone!  With her money, she could have hired a big body guard.   Why leave all her possessions and just throw a few things in?  You know she has some expensive jewelry and clothes for him to destroy.

Also, if he was watching the bank and knew she withdrew money, he must have access.  What has she done to prevent him from wiping her out?

That said, I'm gonna miss this show when it's over!

I had the same thoughts, especially about the bodyguard. She should get one now. I don't think she planned to leave that moment, but his attitude toward her money pushed her to it. Because yeah, it wasn't well planned. 

[zillabreeze]

18 hours ago, Barb23 said:

I would really like to know the details of Debra's bank account(s).   It seems like his name was added very quickly  to her account.  I'm guessing when they were coming home from their wedding in Vegas so he could take advantage of her wedding high. (Just a guess on my part.) Did she question him why he didn't have an account? (I'm just assuming he didn't have one.) I'm sure he just gave her a story he didn't have one because of Tonia.  It's bad enough she didn't think of a prenup because he wooed her over & the wedding happened on a spur of the moment but putting his name on her account(s) is just ridiculous among other things especially considering how much money she has. 

Excellent questions all.  Too bad none of those crossed Debra's mind.  

How the hell did she build a giant successful business??  Dumber than a box of hair with ZERO people reading skills.

[Starlight925]

Re:  Debra's bank account.  I'm guessing her bank account wasn't the only place she kept money.  Most people with money have a certain amount of easily accessible cash in their bank account, but the bulk of the money is usually in mutual funds, 401K's, stocks, etc., not nearly as accessbile/liquid.  Plus, she'd have had to have gone into each of her accounts and added John, which from the amount of time, just doesn't seem like enough time for them to have done that, for all of her money.  Not to mention her business accounts, which would have been completely separate.

When John asked her why she withdrew all the cash, I wondered why she didn't just say she needed it for the business....make up some project that required cash right away, and lead him to believe it would be an investment for their future.  Or better yet, just make all this up in advance, and tell him she's going to need access to that cash for this made-up project.

I know plenty of smart women who do stupid things in their romantic lives.  PhD's, high-level businesswomen, doctors.  The heart and the brain are very separate, and the heart can do really stupid things when the person wants to believe it.

[SoWindsor]

Deb is very lucky John didn’t kill her. Agreed it doesn’t make sense that she went home to confront him — that was dangerous and not necessary.

I’m guessing John has narcissistic personality disorder. Scary that there’s so many men out there with it conning people. It seems like John didn’t hide it as well as others and there were definitely red flags right at the beginning.

It’s making me think of Chris Watts — wonder what warning signs he showed Shannan. 

The Henry Rollins video Liar does such a great job showing what these people are especially the part where he’s apologizing 

if you'll give me one more chance
I swear that I will never lie to you again
because now I see the destructive power of a lie
they're stronger than truth
I can't believe I ever hurt you
I swear
I will never to you lie again, please
just give me one more chance
I will never lie to you again
I swear
that I will never tell a lie
I will never tell a lie
no, no
ha ha ha ha ha hah haa haa haa haaa
sucker
sucker!

Edited January 1, 2019 by SoWindsor

[Starlight925]

26 minutes ago, SoWindsor said:

Deb is very lucky John didn’t kill her. Agreed it doesn’t make sense that she went home to confront him — that was dangerous and not necessary.

I’m guessing John has narcissistic personality disorder. Scary that there’s so many men out there with it conning people. It seems like John didn’t hide it as well as others and there were definitely red flags right at the beginning.

It’s making me think of Chris Watts — wonder what warning signs he showed Shannan. 

This is exactly what I think.  Narcissistic personality disordered psychopath.

Eerie similarities between JM and CW:  Lovebombing, early intense infatuation, lying, apologizing/I'll be better/crying, wash/rinse/repeat.

It was very stupid for Debra to go to the house, pack, and tell him she was leaving him, with all 6'2" of him cornering her in the closet.  I had a similar personal situation once, and stupidly, I'll admit to handling it the exact same way Debra did.  Exactly.  Looking back, I can only say that I wasn't thinking correctly at the time.  In my case, he traveled, so I could have easily done it when he was gone, but I chose a moment like Debra did to say I was leaving.  She must have been in such an emotional state that she wasn't thinking clearly.  She's lucky he didn't kill her.

[DrivingSideways]

When Roni said "Tequila", I thought she said "To kill you!" and I thought it was an extremely inappropriate joke like John made about killing her.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who is struggling with intense feelings of dislike toward Debra.  She is the victim for sure, but watching her calmly sip her coffee with a befuddled "What a pickle I'm in!" look on her face while her homicidal husband continues to plot against her is crazy.  And agree that the scene at her home when she leaves was incredibly stupid.  I hope that was fabricated to create drama for the series, although I do believe Debra is stupid enough to go into that scene, hoping John will say something, anything, to make her believe that he really is a good guy and all of the previous stuff was a misunderstanding.

[PrincessPurrsALot]

I guess I read the scene a little differently.  I agree she had decided to leave him and was putting that in place.  And yes, she probably should have had a story set up for why she was moving $30K from the shared account.  I'm just not certain she planned to leave at that exact moment until he confronted her.  Then she decided she needed to leave right away.  Which put her in the position of packing with angry John in her face.  Then again, I wasn't feeling well when I was watching so I may have missed something incredibly obvious.  

[Starlight925]

22 minutes ago, PrincessPurrsALot said:

I guess I read the scene a little differently.  I agree she had decided to leave him and was putting that in place.  And yes, she probably should have had a story set up for why she was moving $30K from the shared account.  I'm just not certain she planned to leave at that exact moment until he confronted her.  Then she decided she needed to leave right away.  Which put her in the position of packing with angry John in her face.  Then again, I wasn't feeling well when I was watching so I may have missed something incredibly obvious.  

No, I don't think you're missing anything.  I think the only thing people are saying is that she should have packed when he wasn't there, so she'd have no confrontation with him at all.  As someone else said, just have a process server to serve him with the papers.

But as you said, she may not have planned to leave that exact moment, but decided when he confronted her.

Edited January 1, 2019 by Sterling

[HunterHunted]

1 hour ago, DrivingSideways said:

I'm glad I'm not the only one who is struggling with intense feelings of dislike toward Debra.  She is the victim for sure, but watching her calmly sip her coffee with a befuddled "What a pickle I'm in!" look on her face while her homicidal husband continues to plot against her is crazy.  And agree that the scene at her home when she leaves was incredibly stupid.  I hope that was fabricated to create drama for the series, although I do believe Debra is stupid enough to go into that scene, hoping John will say something, anything, to make her believe that he really is a good guy and all of the previous stuff was a misunderstanding.

I commend them for telling the story of an unsympathetic victim. I've struggled with trying to feel sympathy for Debra. John is a dangerous criminal even though Deb continues to make terrible dumb decisions.

Even liars, thieves, dirtbags, shitheads, assholes, dumbasses, drunks, junkies, prostitutes, murderers, and criminals can be transgressed against and can be victims of crimes. It's these screwed up value judgments that keep people from reporting crimes like rape because they were voluntarily drunk or high when the act was committed, they had gone home with a guy they just met at the bar, they are gay, they are a prostitute, or they are a prisoner. Our view of the act should be neutral. It doesn't cease to be a crime because the person being raped was in prison for murdering a kid. It's still a crime.

Media like this is important because it does force us to confront our biases and tests our empathy. Daniel Holtzclaw used our distrust of unsympathetic victims to get away with his rapes because he targeted Black women with criminal histories. It is important to see an unsympathetic victim like Debra who makes dumb decisions like getting deeply involved very quickly with a man she didn't know, ignoring his sketchy dangerous behavior, ignoring legal information that indicated that John was a dangerous criminal, siding with John over her children and professionals (including a private eye, doctor, and lawyer who all concluded that John was lying about a lot very early), and remaining with John "because he had no one else." It's not just the perfect among us who deserves protection from the law; it's the criminal-minded (we don't get to hunt prisoners in some Most Dangerous Game dystopia) if they are being transgressed against and the morons like Debra. 

Edited January 1, 2019 by HunterHunted

[ElectricBoogaloo]

18 hours ago, yourmomiseasy said:

In California to get the certified authorized copy by mail you have to get shit notarized and it takes at least 4-6 weeks to process the request.  If you want it faster you have to go in person to the county clerk in the county you were born  -- I don't think a lot of them process online/via mail, but there are companies you can pay to go in person for you.  I know this because my mom wouldn't give me my birth certificate when I was getting a passport because she said I'd lose it and we got in a huge fight over ownership of the certificate and I was extra aggro because I don't even live in that county anymore and didn't want to drive out there and didn't have 6 weeks to wait since I was taking a spur of the moment trip to NZ.  Eventually she compromised by going and getting me my own copy on her lunch break.  Spoiler alert: I'm pretty sure I "lost" the copy that she got me, but it might be in a drawer in the coat closet.

If you use Vitalchek (which is a legit online company linked through the California Department of Public Health), you can order a certified California birth certificate online and receive it in way less than 4-6 weeks. According to their website, it takes 1-3 days to process your request and then either 7-10 days to send it through USPS or overnight if you choose express delivery through UPS. They use online identify verification so you don't need to get anything notarized before requesting it online. About ten years ago, Mr. EB and I both had to renew our passports on less than two months notice so we did as much of it as we could online (getting our birth certificates, applying for expedited renewal, etc) and it was all pretty easy (he was born in California and I was born in another state so we had to deal with two different processes to get our birth certificates).

As long as Veronica wasn't planning to leave the country in the next 30 days, she could have done most of it online as long as she paid for expedited processing for everything (obviously she has no problem asking her mom for money, and the cost was nothing compared to how much she paid for her handbags). For me, the point was that Veronica just expects her mom to handle stuff like this for her instead of just taking care of it herself aka getting her own copy and putting it in her purse vault so that she never has to ask her mom for her birth certificate again (like in ten years when her passport expires again). On top of all that, I highly doubt that Veronica NEEDED her birth certificate right away (despite how snotty she got when Debra said she wouldn't have time to get it from the safe deposit box until Monday). And if she did, then that's kind of her own fault for waiting until the last minute to renew her passport.

[MaryPatShelby]

22 hours ago, sadie said:

I understood WHAT she was doing with the letter, I just don’t understand why. Why open it, read it, then go to the trouble to reseal it and give it to John to open like she hadn’t read it. Was she waiting to see if he would honestly tell her what was in the letter. Was she trying to fool John that she still trusted him completely? Again, why? 

 

I assumed she was just trying to see what his reaction was to the letter.  Would he read it correctly, or lie about what it said?  Would he admit to firing the lawyer? What would his excuse me?

15 hours ago, newyawk said:

WAS it Alan Ruck? I initially thought it was him, but there was no credit for it on his IMDB and there was no credit for the role under the One Show episode page on IMDB either. So I don't think it's him, but i reqally would like to know who played that lawyer. 

 

 

 

Alan Ruck is credited in IMDB now; I had to look because I thought the actor was dead....um no.  He died on Bunheads, and for some reason I thought he had died in real life!

Does anyone know if Debra ever found out how John f'ed with Ronnie's job?  The show didn't really address that.  

Edited January 1, 2019 by MaryPatShelby

[biakbiak]

8 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

again (like in ten years when her passport expires again). O

The supidest part,  I don’t remember if this happened in real life,  is that the only reason she would have needed her birth certificate is if she had lost her passport not just to renew it, you only need your current/expired passport to renew your passport not your birth certificate.

[Empress1]

1 minute ago, biakbiak said:

The supidest part,  I don’t remember if this happened in real life,  is that the only reason she would have needed her birth certificate is if she had lost her passport not just to renew it, you only need your current/expired passport to renew your passport not your birth certificate.

My mother discovered very close to a travel date that her passport was expired; we were visiting her father on his deathbed so we didn't have flexibility for travel dates (he died a few days after we left; his wife said she thought he was holding on for us to come). She was able to renew it within a few days; it cost an arm and a leg but it can be done.

Debra said in a previous episode that her son is the one who has his shit together and that comes through on the show. Terra needed her mother to stay home from work because Terra broke up with her boyfriend; she comes across as kind of fragile.

Spoiler

Which makes what's coming up that much more surprising - based on what we've been shown, I can absolutely see Veronica fighting back but we haven't been given that kind of information about Terra's survival instinct.

 Actually, given how proficient Veronica was at her job and how she took initiative to track John and come up with the money to hire a private investigator, it seems like Veronica COULD do a lot of stuff herself - it's just that Debra hasn't required her to. 

(I feel like I've always had my birth certificate? Maybe since I moved into my first place? It's not a good idea to keep it in a dorm room so I don't think I had it with me in college. I definitely have it now; I know exactly where it is. I'm trying to remember the last time I asked my parents for it and I'm coming up short. I've had a passport since I was a kid - my grandfather moved out of the country when I was around 7 when he married his second wife.) I wondered if John would shred or otherwise tamper with the certificate in some way when Debra said she or John had to get it out of the safe deposit box - I was thinking, do not let him around her documents!

[raiderred1]

22 hours ago, yourmomiseasy said:

I know this because my mom wouldn't give me my birth certificate when I was getting a passport because she said I'd lose it and we got in a huge fight over ownership of the certificate and I was extra aggro because I don't even live in that county anymore and didn't want to drive out there and didn't have 6 weeks to wait since I was taking a spur of the moment trip to NZ.  Eventually she compromised by going and getting me my own copy on her lunch break.  Spoiler alert: I'm pretty sure I "lost" the copy that she got me, but it might be in a drawer in the coat closet.

OMG this cracks me up because I just had this same discussion with my dad over my BC.  The catch for me is that I was born many moons ago in Venezuela and uh that would be a bit hard to get a copy these days with all the dictatorship and such.  My dad is super scared I will misplace mine. WTH would I do?? I have never left the country and needed a passport and my last passport was when I was 3 mos old when my parents moved back to the states. I've changed a bit from then. hehe

[QQQQ]

19 hours ago, newyawk said:

On 12/30/2018 at 10:54 PM, Mom2twoNonna2one said:

Every time I see Alan Ruck in a show I squee a little. He played the attorney spot on. 

 

WAS it Alan Ruck? I initially thought it was him, but there was no credit for it on his IMDB and there was no credit for the role under the One Show episode page on IMDB either. So I don't think it's him, but i reqally would like to know who played that lawyer. 

 

 

[mythoughtis]

I don’t think we were told why Roni wanted her birth certificate- just that she wanted it.  There are lots of reasons to need it besides a passport.  Maybe she had to prove  citizenship status for a different job( most jobs don’t need that but some  do). Maybe she had to prove her age. Maybe she wanted to do more sleuthing and needed to prove her relationship to Debra to get certain documents. 

[biakbiak]

59 minutes ago, mythoughtis said:

don’t think we were told why Roni wanted her birth certificate- just that she wanted it.  There are lots of reasons to need it besides a passport.

She specifically stated that she needed it to renew her passport when she called her mom to ask her for it.

[mythoughtis]

2 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

She specifically stated that she needed it to renew her passport when she called her mom to ask her for it.

I must have missed that part. However that brings up another question. I think she was 24-25? Backdating that 10 years( normal passport valid time)... was she renewing one or getting her first adult one? Could the old one have been a child’s and therefore she did need her birth certificate? 

[biakbiak]

4 minutes ago, mythoughtis said:

I must have missed that part. However that brings up another question. I think she was 24-25? Backdating that 10 years( normal passport valid time)... was she renewing one or getting her first adult one? Could the old one have been a child’s and therefore she did need her birth certificate? 

If you get it before your 15 it’s only good for 5 years and she is definitely older than that but even with minors once you have a passport and are renewing your passport you don’t need to show your birth certificate only your current/expired passport.

[GracieK]

On 12/31/2018 at 4:45 PM, sadie said:

I understood WHAT she was doing with the letter, I just don’t understand why. Why open it, read it, then go to the trouble to reseal it and give it to John to open like she hadn’t read it. Was she waiting to see if he would honestly tell her what was in the letter. Was she trying to fool John that she still trusted him completely? Again, why? 

And yes, why go confront him for a small bag full of stuff. With her money I would have showed up with two of the biggest armed bodyguards my money could buy and get all my stuff? Was that her trying to show him she wasn’t afraid? This woman baffles me.

The acting Bana did in that scene in the lawyers office when he brought up a post nup was masterful. His expression was so subtle but absolutely terrifying. Gave me chills. 

My impression is that once she saw his bleeding foot and realized he hadn’t changed and was still shooting up, it finally dawned on her how dangerous of a con man he was. She was carrying on as everything was fine and that she totally trusted him and left everything to his control. She wanted to create the illusion that she was in no way suspicious or questioning him... by not even opening the letter and making him the decision maker regarding the attorney it threw off suspicion that she may be on to him in some way. 

Given that she was going to all the trouble to hide what she was doing, I have to wonder if she didn’t expect him to know she withdrew the money right away and hadn’t planned on that confrontation. Once she was backed into a corner over it she panicked and just wanted to get away ASAP. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

Was John trying to abscond with the retainer money? Funny how he kept referring to it as his money when Debra is the one who had paid it.

When John jumped out of that ambulance was it because he had faked the overdose or was he on PCP? If he wasn't jacked up on something I'm not sure how he thought he was going to outrun all those cops. Especially since they were already on high alert for him to pull something.

Edited January 4, 2019 by Joimiaroxeu

[mythoughtis]

49 minutes ago, GracieK said:

My impression is that once she saw his bleeding foot and realized he hadn’t changed and was still shooting up, it finally dawned on her how dangerous of a con man he was. She was carrying on as everything was fine and that she totally trusted him and left everything to his control. She wanted to create the illusion that she was in no way suspicious or questioning him... by not even opening the letter and making him the decision maker regarding the attorney it threw off suspicion that she may be on to him in some way. 

Given that she was going to all the trouble to hide what she was doing, I have to wonder if she didn’t expect him to know she withdrew the money right away and hadn’t planned on that confrontation. Once she was backed into a corner over it she panicked and just wanted to get away ASAP. 

Going to comment on the podcast thread 

[breezy424]

Well, maybe she 'thought' she needed her passport.  Maybe she called and was told she needed her passport.  It can be like calling DMV.  I can't say how many times I or someone in my family have called DMV and have gotten wrong information and brought things I didn't need to bring or didn't bring things I did need to bring.

As for Debra having Ronnie's birth certificate, that's not unusual for me.  My kids are young adults.  Their BC's. passports, and car ownerships are in the safe at my house.  They live close by and rent.  Debra had Ronnie's BC in a safe deposit box.  Was Ronnie snotty about getting it?  Yeah.  But I wouldn't think she was at the point of finding out how to get a duplicate online.  JMHO.

[JessePinkman]

I listened to half the podcast then stopped because I was getting so angry with...all of them, frankly. John is of course the villain of the piece but my god how many times does a man have to harass you and threaten to kill you and hope you die before you get a fucking clue! And Debra giggly and starry-eyed while retelling

Spoiler

the tale of the man who would ultimately attempt to kill her daughter was just too much for me.

 

So I'm watching this now only because my boyfriend wants to. It's actual torture watching Debra be this dumb. I wish I could give her props for getting a clue this episode but she handled it so sloppily. She knows John monitors her accounts, why didn't she come up with a reason why she withdrew all that money? He's now threatened to kill both of your kids! 

I can't summon any sympathy for her because while she's not deserving of this, she has done nothing to stop it. Even this is too little too late.

I wonder if this role is hard for Connie Britton to play. She's a great actress but this character is so thin and meek and dumb.

I agree that this should have been a miniseries. A lot of this is just retreading ground they've already covered. I felt the same way about the podcast. "Oh Debra falls for John's bullshit again." It got to be very repetitive.

[lezlers]

On ‎12‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 2:43 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Cameron Frye and Mr. Katimski! And Mr. Tanaka from Glee!

Oh, Ronnie. I know that you've been shown to be immature and spoiled, but there's this amazing thing now called the internet. You can get a certified copy of your birth certificate rushed if you think going to the county recorder's office is too full of dirty poor people for you to go in person. I ordered mine from another state to renew my passport and I had it in less than a week.

I'm glad to see that ultimately Debra ended up listening to PI Nurse Carla's advice!

Debra going home and telling John to his face that she wanted a divorce was either the bravest or stupidest thing she's ever done.

ETA: Cameron's blonde assistant looked familiar to me but I couldn't place her. It turns out she was Vern Schillinger's daughter in law on Oz!

I vote for stupidest (above marrying him and going back to him.)  You know you're with a dangerous psychopath drug addict.  You're being super careful in planning to leave, resealing envelopes, wearing wigs, carefully withdrawing money, ect.  So why would you tell him you want a divorce at night, alone, WHILE STANDING IN THE CLOSET, IN WHICH HE IS BLOCKING THE ONLY EXIT?   Jesus, Debra.  She is the stupidest intelligent businesswoman I've ever seen.

[Neurochick]

The thing with John, what makes him smart is he knows WHO to play.  When he was running from the cops, I thought, "if he were a black man, they would have shot him in the back, case closed."  But because John is a straight, white male, everybody gives him the benefit of the doubt, everybody gives him a pass.  How many men of color are sitting today in places like Rikers Island because they don't have money for bail, and were picked up on charges far less than the shit John's done.  

Debra should have made him a fentanyl cocktail that he'd never forget, not to kill him, but to incapacitate him, but that would be Twilight Zone stuff.

[Adiba]

I can only hope that in real life Debra did not handle her asking for a divorce so stupidly and dangerously? The scene where she is in the closet and John is blocking her way was chilling--a lesson on how not to ask for a divorce--even if your spouse is not a dangerous sociopath.

[zillabreeze]

On 1/1/2019 at 9:43 AM, Sterling said:

The heart and the brain are very separate, and the heart can do really stupid things when the person wants to believe it.

Back in the day, my hoo-hah helped me make some stupid decisions, too.

[laurakaye]

On 12/31/2018 at 5:43 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Cameron Frye and Mr. Katimski! And Mr. Tanaka from Glee!

Don't forget Rabbit from Twister..."Rabbit is good, Rabbit is wiiiiiiiise."  My favorite line in the entire (awful) movie.  I was unsure at first as well since I haven't seen him in awhile, but those eyes gave him away.  I immediately paused the show to look up his age - 62 - and he's still both the handsomest and cutest. :)   

 

On 12/31/2018 at 1:43 PM, nr65000 said:

This 100%  She is still playing "victim".  She ignored every single red flag for her own selfish reasons and put her children in danger.

If this weren't based on a true story, I wouldn't believe the majority of it.  From Deb's mom forgiving her daughter's killer, to Deb's purposeful cluelessness, to the way she allowed him to treat her daughters, to Crazy John jumping out of a moving ambulance...it's all the more insane because it's all true.  But the worst by far is Deb's space-cadet personality in the face of her psycho husband saying the most vile, disgusting things about her kids (not to mention what comes later).  She's a professional victim and can only giggle and shrug while her life falls into shambles.

That said, did anyone catch the great line from the attorney's assistant about Deb's hair?  I loved that, since Connie Britton's gorgeous hair has a personality all its own (as well as its own Twitter handle).

[lezlers]

On ‎12‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 1:29 PM, Showthyme said:

John had conned many women. I am guessing that he had this whole process down to a science. I can see him telling Debra let's go to the DMV for a name change and stop by the bank "since we are out" and add my name to the account. 

Christopher Goffard said that he didn't understand all the criticism towards Debra. Most women who are afraid of men would not allow themselves to be cornered into a closet. I don't understand why she even had to go back to the condo to announce that she wanted a divorce. Buy some new clothes and have the lawyer serve him the divorce papers! Debra had resources. 

Roni (Jacquelyn) isn't making the press rounds like Terra. I wonder if she and Debra are still talking. 

Has anyone figured out what Debra was doing with the label on the envelope?

Putting this in spoiler tags because I don't think we're supposed to discuss the podcast in the show episode threads:
 

Spoiler

 

How can Goffard not understand it?  He interviewed her!  Even he seemed to be in disbelief of her stupidity during some of the interviews. 

She still talks to "Ronnie."  She mentioned in a FB group that Jacqueline is unhappy with how she's being portrayed in the series.

 

She was making it look like she hadn't read the letter before giving it to John

[lezlers]

On ‎1‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 11:33 AM, HunterHunted said:

I commend them for telling the story of an unsympathetic victim. I've struggled with trying to feel sympathy for Debra. John is a dangerous criminal even though Deb continues to make terrible dumb decisions.

Even liars, thieves, dirtbags, shitheads, assholes, dumbasses, drunks, junkies, prostitutes, murderers, and criminals can be transgressed against and can be victims of crimes. It's these screwed up value judgments that keep people from reporting crimes like rape because they were voluntarily drunk or high when the act was committed, they had gone home with a guy they just met at the bar, they are gay, they are a prostitute, or they are a prisoner. Our view of the act should be neutral. It doesn't cease to be a crime because the person being raped was in prison for murdering a kid. It's still a crime.

Media like this is important because it does force us to confront our biases and tests our empathy. Daniel Holtzclaw used our distrust of unsympathetic victims to get away with his rapes because he targeted Black women with criminal histories. It is important to see an unsympathetic victim like Debra who makes dumb decisions like getting deeply involved very quickly with a man she didn't know, ignoring his sketchy dangerous behavior, ignoring legal information that indicated that John was a dangerous criminal, siding with John over her children and professionals (including a private eye, doctor, and lawyer who all concluded that John was lying about a lot very early), and remaining with John "because he had no one else." It's not just the perfect among us who deserves protection from the law; it's the criminal-minded (we don't get to hunt prisoners in some Most Dangerous Game dystopia) if they are being transgressed against and the morons like Debra. 

While I agree with the spirit of your post, I don't think anyone is saying John Meehan shouldn't have been punished because Deb was stupid or that Deb deserved (well, the ultimate crime wasn't even against her) what happened.  I think people are just saying that it's hard to feel SORRY for her because she refused to protect herself and her family from this psychopath, despite multiple people practically screaming at her that he was dangerous.    Just like if someone rapes a child murderer in prison.  The rapist should still be punished, yes, but no one is crying out "poor poor Mr. Child Murderer!"

[Neurochick]

I think people, myself included, have a hard time with Debra, how can a woman so successful be so silly when it comes to men?  

I don't have an answer but I do think that everybody has this "type" in their head, as to what they want their partner to look like, talk like, be, etc.  Some people get lucky, they get what they want, others realize that what they want is unrealistic, they meet someone who ticks most of the boxes, some people just say, "fuck it, I have a bad picker" and don't bother (I'm in that category).  Then there are people like Debra, who never grow out of that fantasy and keep picking the same guy over and over again.

I have a friend who is a good guy.  He keeps meeting women who use him, because they see he's stable and secure.  The women he wants don't want him, why?  Because he doesn't have the education, he's short and stocky, he doesn't dress well.  I was talking to him and a woman took me aside and said, "girl, you know you can do better."  She meant looks and style.  

[Aethera]

Folks, a reminder that talking about events in the participants' lives, or their current status, outside the scope of the episode, are spoilers, and should be spoiler tagged. This includes what they may have posted on social media. 

[lucindabelle]

What was going on with the coffee mug under the car?

did she communicate with the lawyer? What was the point of that moving it into another envelope?

why doesn’t John refrain from stupid malice? He goes to the trouble of writing a love letter yet sends a video (not even Snapchat!) of himself spitting tonronnie? And nasty texts? How does he think she won’t find out?

 

even the post nup all he had to do was play it cool act like it’s a great idea then stall or delay it indefinitely.

he steps on his own con.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 hour ago, lucindabelle said:

What was going on with the coffee mug under the car?

did she communicate with the lawyer? What was the point of that moving it into another envelope?

why doesn’t John refrain from stupid malice? He goes to the trouble of writing a love letter yet sends a video (not even Snapchat!) of himself spitting tonronnie? And nasty texts? How does he think she won’t find out?

 

even the post nup all he had to do was play it cool act like it’s a great idea then stall or delay it indefinitely.

he steps on his own con.

When she dropped the cup, she found the tracker he put on her car.

Yes, she communicated with both lawyers. She put the first lawyer's letter in another envelope so that John would think she hadn't opened it and read it. This would continue the illusion that she trusted him and make him think that she was letting him make the decisions about the lawyer and deferring to him.

John is a dick and he lets his ego get in the way sometimes. He wanted Veronica to know that he was fucking with her which is why he sent her that video. At that point, Veronica and Debra were barely being civil to each other, and that's when it's easier for someone like John to be a dick because once an abusive manipulator has managed to separate the victim from their family, they're easier to control. Since he knew Veronica and Debra weren't getting along, the chances of Veronica telling Debra about the video weren't great (and if I recall correctly, she didn't tell Debra until after Debra said she was leaving John when they were at the diner).

[chocolatine]

Ronnie, Toby, Trey, PI nurse Carla, lawyer Cameron Frye, and lawyer Thatcher Grey: "Your husband is a dangerous, violent man."

Debra: "Hm, what should I do? I know, I'll confront him when we're alone in our home!"

Me: *facepalm*

[Quilt Fairy]

Alan Ruck has certainly turned into a silver fox.  Who would've thunk it?

[Moose135]

On 12/31/2018 at 4:45 PM, sadie said:

The acting Bana did in that scene in the lawyers office when he brought up a post nup was masterful. His expression was so subtle but absolutely terrifying. Gave me chills. 

I think we were holding our breath during that whole scene.  Bana looked like he was going to grab one of the pens out of the desk set and stab the lawyer in the chest with it.

 

On 1/1/2019 at 12:42 PM, DrivingSideways said:

When Roni said "Tequila", I thought she said "To kill you!" and I thought it was an extremely inappropriate joke like John made about killing her.

I thought she said "We need to kill him", which I would have agreed with, but I guess they wanted to keep their reactions to him inside the bounds of the law.

 

On 1/1/2019 at 1:37 PM, PrincessPurrsALot said:

I'm just not certain she planned to leave at that exact moment until he confronted her.  Then she decided she needed to leave right away.  Which put her in the position of packing with angry John in her face.

That was my take - she was trying to keep up appearances and not let him know the planning she was doing, but when he confronted her about the money, she thought it was time to go, without thinking it through all the way.

 

10 hours ago, laurakaye said:

Don't forget Rabbit from Twister..."Rabbit is good, Rabbit is wiiiiiiiise."  My favorite line in the entire (awful) movie.  I was unsure at first as well since I haven't seen him in awhile, but those eyes gave him away.

It took me a minute to figure out who he was, then I was like "Rabbit!"  I love that line too!

[lezlers]

On ‎1‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 6:27 PM, GracieK said:

My impression is that once she saw his bleeding foot and realized he hadn’t changed and was still shooting up, it finally dawned on her how dangerous of a con man he was. She was carrying on as everything was fine and that she totally trusted him and left everything to his control. She wanted to create the illusion that she was in no way suspicious or questioning him... by not even opening the letter and making him the decision maker regarding the attorney it threw off suspicion that she may be on to him in some way. 

Given that she was going to all the trouble to hide what she was doing, I have to wonder if she didn’t expect him to know she withdrew the money right away and hadn’t planned on that confrontation. Once she was backed into a corner over it she panicked and just wanted to get away ASAP. 

I'm not going to go into detail because we're not supposed to discuss the podcast in this thread but just know that's not actually how her taking the money out went down.

[lezlers]

On ‎1‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 7:23 AM, Neurochick said:

The thing with John, what makes him smart is he knows WHO to play.  When he was running from the cops, I thought, "if he were a black man, they would have shot him in the back, case closed."  But because John is a straight, white male, everybody gives him the benefit of the doubt, everybody gives him a pass.  How many men of color are sitting today in places like Rikers Island because they don't have money for bail, and were picked up on charges far less than the shit John's done.  

Debra should have made him a fentanyl cocktail that he'd never forget, not to kill him, but to incapacitate him, but that would be Twilight Zone stuff.

It was actually a good thing that he ran since the prosecutor told him they could only get him for possession (that was before he ran, right?)  So once he ran they could get him for escape, fleeing an officer, battery on an officer and threats against and officer.  That's likely what landed him in prison vs. county for a short stint.  

I do agree with you on the race issue, tho.   I'm a public defender and while I don't have a ton of black clients, I have quite a few Latino clients.  The differences in how they're treated is staggering.  Whenever one of my black clients asks me why they were pulled over or stopped I look them dead in the eye and tell them "because you're a black man/woman in_____ county.   That's the truth.  Please trust that I will never lie to you."   And I won't.

[CaliCat]

On 1/1/2019 at 2:33 PM, HunterHunted said:

I commend them for telling the story of an unsympathetic victim. I've struggled with trying to feel sympathy for Debra. John is a dangerous criminal even though Deb continues to make terrible dumb decisions.

Even liars, thieves, dirtbags, shitheads, assholes, dumbasses, drunks, junkies, prostitutes, murderers, and criminals can be transgressed against and can be victims of crimes. It's these screwed up value judgments that keep people from reporting crimes like rape because they were voluntarily drunk or high when the act was committed, they had gone home with a guy they just met at the bar, they are gay, they are a prostitute, or they are a prisoner. Our view of the act should be neutral. It doesn't cease to be a crime because the person being raped was in prison for murdering a kid. It's still a crime.

Media like this is important because it does force us to confront our biases and tests our empathy. Daniel Holtzclaw used our distrust of unsympathetic victims to get away with his rapes because he targeted Black women with criminal histories. It is important to see an unsympathetic victim like Debra who makes dumb decisions like getting deeply involved very quickly with a man she didn't know, ignoring his sketchy dangerous behavior, ignoring legal information that indicated that John was a dangerous criminal, siding with John over her children and professionals (including a private eye, doctor, and lawyer who all concluded that John was lying about a lot very early), and remaining with John "because he had no one else." It's not just the perfect among us who deserves protection from the law; it's the criminal-minded (we don't get to hunt prisoners in some Most Dangerous Game dystopia) if they are being transgressed against and the morons like Debra. 

 

This is so true, and so well written.  I wish more people agreed with us. 

It’s true that so many people don’t report crimes because of shame for their own behavior that might have contributed to it, which makes it all the more surprising that Debra has been so open with her own story. 

It’s a cautionary tale, though, and so gripping because most of us have been stupid at times, although not necessarily to the extent that Debra has. Thank goodness people as awful as Dirty John are rare. 

Edited January 3, 2019 by CaliCat
There vs. their

[lezlers]

On ‎1‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 1:16 PM, Neurochick said:

I think people, myself included, have a hard time with Debra, how can a woman so successful be so silly when it comes to men?  

I don't have an answer but I do think that everybody has this "type" in their head, as to what they want their partner to look like, talk like, be, etc.  Some people get lucky, they get what they want, others realize that what they want is unrealistic, they meet someone who ticks most of the boxes, some people just say, "fuck it, I have a bad picker" and don't bother (I'm in that category).  Then there are people like Debra, who never grow out of that fantasy and keep picking the same guy over and over again.

I have a friend who is a good guy.  He keeps meeting women who use him, because they see he's stable and secure.  The women he wants don't want him, why?  Because he doesn't have the education, he's short and stocky, he doesn't dress well.  I was talking to him and a woman took me aside and said, "girl, you know you can do better."  She meant looks and style.  

That's so crazy.  Those are the easiest things to fix!  Anyone can get a new wardrobe and I honestly believe the more you like someone's personality the more attractive they become to you.  For me, at least, a man becomes 100% more attractive to me if he can make me laugh.  That's why I'm a fan of online dating.  Get to know the person a little bit before actually meeting them in person.  That's how I met my husband, 10 years ago.   Still bitter we didn't get on one of those Match.com commercials.  We've got 2 match.com babies!

[Quilt Fairy]

8 hours ago, lezlers said:

That's why I'm a fan of online dating.  Get to know the person a little bit before actually meeting them in person. 

Which is how Debra met John. 

[lezlers]

8 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Which is how Debra met John. 

LOL.  Point taken.