S03.E05: Toby

[memememe76]

The boys who played Toby were wonderful. This is one of the reasons the show won SAG for Best cast. I loved the episode.

[movingtargetgal]

53 minutes ago, callmebetty said:

You so know Miguel, Toby and Beth have talked and gif'd about that in their group chat.

I want to be a fly on the wall at their next "I married into the Pearson family" support group meeting.

[willco]

1 hour ago, Armchair Critic said:

Good for Kate being pregnant but ugh she can be such a Debbie Downer, instead of just saying "thank you" to a stranger that compliments her voice she has to go into how when she isn't happy it affects her music.

Glad Randall didn't easily win everybody over, this was more realistic.

And we get to see Jack asked Miguel to look after his family.

I'm glad it's not just me feeling that way about Kate. That was uncomfortable to watch, that guy was really impressed by her singing and was paying her a nice compliment, and what does she do ? Starts up about how depressed she is ( all the time, it seems.) Debbie Downer is a good name for her-- only thing is DD was funny ! Although Toby obviously uses humor to mask his pain, at least he's not crying in his beer 24-7. I don't mind the use of humor that way, I do it sometimes myself. Humor can lighten the load, so to speak, if you allow it to.

[love2lovebadtv]

38 minutes ago, tribeca said:

My French White grandma always slept on a silk pillow case.  She brought it everywhere.  She said it prevented wrinkles and she didn’t have any lines on her face even in her seventies.  

   I really felt bad for Toby.  Kid Toby looked so much like adult Toby.  His humor is his defense.  Hopefully Kate will be there for him.  

I'm so glad you said this. It felt like Zoe tried to make this pillowcase a piece of black culture rather than something women may do as part of a beauty regimen. Just like I would be annoyed if he assumed she slept on a satin pillowcase because she's black. 

[breezy424]

The show has officially jumped the shark with me with Randall running for office because his father's name was on a lease.  Umm.  Wouldn't Randall have to go through a process to prove that William was his actual biological father?  Just saying...

So much was just so contrived.  So stereo typical.  The prom date? The pillow? 

I actually liked Miguel trying to help out.  He was close to Jack and was trying to help his widow out.

Lastly, I don't know of a doctor who wouldn't prescribe an antidepressant renewal over the phone for someone who has been on one for a long period of time.  Any doctor knows you just don't stop any of those medications.   Cold turkey?  Nope....

[love2lovebadtv]

54 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

Yes, that cashier, what a bitch.

Strange that Kevin didn’t know about the pillowcase, his brother is black, as is his sister in law.   I was waiting for him to tell Zoe that he had it delivered because he knew why she needed it.

I don’t get why folks are upset with Zoe and the army buddy’s wife.  I thought their conversation was very real.  Some white folks don’t get it.

I don't think it's strange that Kevin didn't know about the pillowcase. I doubt Randall sleeps on one and Kevin probably doesn't know what Beth sleeps on. Do we know that Beth sleeps on a satin pillowcase. This is not something all black women do nor is it something only black women do. I remember Randall saying that Beth wore a scarf at night. So wouldn't that mean Beth probably doesn't sleep on a satin pillowcase? I'm asking for real as a black woman who has never slept on a satin pillowcase. Women from different backgrounds sleep on them so even if Rebecca or Kate slept on them, there's no guarantee Kevin would know that or care why. 

[SuzieQ]

1 hour ago, notcreative enough said:

And am I the only one that wants a Vietnamese Jack Jr with like 5 look a like mini Jacks. Just so Katie girl isn't the only one to pass a bit of daddy on.

No!!  When I saw the necklace it made me wonder if there were some Asisan Pearsons running around!

1 hour ago, Armchair Critic said:

And we get to see Jack asked Miguel to look after his family.

 

1 hour ago, bettername2come said:

Loved Miguel being a genuinely good guy and looking out for the family because Jack wanted him to. And also glad he didn't pop out from under the refrigerator like I expected when Kate started singing at the piano. Helping 3/4s of the Pearsons is enough. I liked seeing that first hint of a Miguel/Rebecca relationship. Not romantic yet, but the earliest scene in the timeline where you can see how it could go there.

 

I might be in the minority but i like Miguel and fail to see how he did anything wrong.  I never thought he was the kind of guy that would have moved in on her too quickly.  It's not like he was hitting on her at Jack's funeral!

 

57 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

 I like Zoe and Kevin, and I thought the stuff with the pillow was a nice gesture on his part, while also showing that he just didnt pick up on the cashier lady and her racism. He knows a decent amount about racism (as we saw in the flashback) but still didnt pick up on everything. Really, I think its kind of weird that he didnt notice. He grew up with Randall and has known his family for years. I do wonder what that, and the conversation she had with the old soldiers wife, will lead to with their relationship?

 

I think he just wasn't paying attention.  He is pretty narcissistic and the pillow gesture was sweet.  And huge for him, since he rarely thinks about anyone's needs except for his own.  There are going to be things a white guy doesn't get about racism.  Maybe she should try a little communication before she writes him off?

[MissL]

I kind of wish we had seen the aftermath of the prom situation.  Did Randall's date get so upset her dad wouldn't take a picture she wouldn't go? So her parents had never met him but they knew he was black right? It just bubbled over on prom night? How DID Kevin react? Did he try to get Randall to go to prom anyway? Would have rather seen all of that than Kate's sadness verbal vomit all over that poor guy giving her a compliment. Have to admit I fast forwarded through almost all Kate and Toby scenes. I'm just not interested.

 

So This is my theory based on what I saw tonight. Miguel spends a lot of time around the family and gets close to Rebecca and he makes some sort of move when they have a "moment".  She freaks and feels uncomfortable and like she's betraying Jack and shuts him out and yells he can't be a replacement Jack.  He moves away and they reconnect years later. Didn't they show her getting a message from him when she's a bit older?

[love2lovebadtv]

14 minutes ago, SuzieQ said:

No!!  When I saw the necklace it made me wonder if there were some Asisan Pearsons running around!

I might be in the minority but i like Miguel and fail to see how he did anything wrong.  I never thought he was the kind of guy that would have moved in on her too quickly.  It's not like he was hitting on her at Jack's funeral!

I think he just wasn't paying attention.  He is pretty narcissistic and the pillow gesture was sweet.  And huge for him, since he rarely thinks about anyone's needs except for his own.  There are going to be things a white guy doesn't get about racism.  Maybe she should try a little communication before she writes him off?

Does anyone know how I can find a clip of the scene with the cashier? I didn't think Kevin was even looking so I was surprised she was upset that he didn't know about it since it wasn't what she said but her disapproval and disdain,which he wouldn't have seen if he wasn't looking. But maybe I don't remember correctly.

[voiceover]

Eeeee!!  It's Mac (Charles Robinson) from Night Court as Jack's Vietnam buddy!  I knew right when he opened the door (but I did double-check at IMDb just in case).  Man I loved that series.

I get that the sales clerk encounter is a serious convo, but "I need a pillowcase because my hair needs it!" might've been a fun, low-drama way to bring Alabaster around (later on he seemed to take it in stride).  I'm a bit surprised that Beth had never mentioned something like that to Kevin [eta: Not about Zoe!!! I mean: mentioned that how she takes care of her hair is different from the way that Kevin's mom & sister take care of their hair] -- they seem to be closer than we originally thought; plus Kevin adores his nieces...that feels like a thing he might have reasonably surprised her by knowing.

Ohhhh Randall: the agony of running against an incumbent!  Even an unpopular one.  

Ohhhhh Beth: there was a Sex & the City ep where the women discussed the danger of showing emotion in the workplace (Samantha ran to an elevator so Richard wouldn't see her burst into tears).  I have been where you were tonight.  I really wanted to hug you. But then we both would've started bawling and what good would that do.

 

Feels like this ep could've been subtitled: "Everybody has ish".  Which is accurate.

Edited October 24, 2018 by voiceover
Clarifying hair comment

[love2lovebadtv]

1 minute ago, MissL said:

I kind of wish we had seen the aftermath of the prom situation.  Did Randall's date get so upset her dad wouldn't take a picture she wouldn't go? So her parents had never met him but they knew he was black right? It just bubbled over on prom night? How DID Kevin react? Did he try to get Randall to go to prom anyway? Would have rather seen all of that than Kate's sadness verbal vomit all over that poor guy giving her a compliment. Have to admit I fast forwarded through almost all Kate and Toby scenes. I'm just not interested.

 

So This is my theory based on what I saw tonight. Miguel spends a lot of time around the family and gets close to Rebecca and he makes some sort of move when they have a "moment".  She freaks and feels uncomfortable and like she's betraying Jack and shuts him out and yells he can't be a replacement Jack.  He moves away and they reconnect years later. Didn't they show her getting a message from him when she's a bit older?

I thought she reconnected when she joined Facebook, which es around the time she became a grandmother. 

[milner]

You are right he wasn’t even looking. 

[colorbars]

1 hour ago, Jewlmc said:

Was the Prom thing a way to highlight how stupid Zoe is?  Because Kevin grew up with a black brother.  Pretty sure he's seen some racist side eye. He's not new to this.

Uh, no. Zoe was neither stupid nor wrong in her worries. Kevin might have seen some of the racism that Randall raced, but I'm positive he missed a lot of it too. Just like he missed the racist side eye in the store earlier in the episode. She wasn't wrong about that at all.

1 hour ago, Laurie4H said:

The racist stuff just seemed so contrived.  It would be so much more effective if it didn’t feel like a political agenda.

What was contrived or political about it? All I saw was a black woman presenting her reservations about dating a white man, which is a very real situation many people go through. As someone who is biracial, I very much appreciated seeing the show address the issues that come with interracial relationships. So many shows that feature interracial relationships completely gloss over those issues and conversations, and if they address it at all, it's always something more blunt and obvious like Randall's prom date's father. It's very rare to get to see a black woman lamenting the  issues with date a nonblack man.

1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

That said, I think it's understandable that a white man wouldn't know the significance of a pillowcase his new girlfriend uses, if she's never explained why she uses it.

I don't think Zoe was trying to say she blames him for not getting it, I'm sure she understood why Kevin wouldn't know the significance. It was what that ignorance represented; like she said, she wasn't sure if she was interested in always having to explain all these little things he wouldn't get going forward.

[love2lovebadtv]

8 minutes ago, voiceover said:

Eeeee!!  It's Mac (Charles Robinson) from Night Court as Jack's Vietnam buddy!  I knew right when he opened the door (but I did double-check at IMDb just in case).  Man I loved that series.

I get that the sales clerk encounter is a serious convo, but "I need a pillowcase because my hair needs it!" might've been a fun, low-drama way to bring Alabaster around (later on he seemed to take it in stride).  I'm a bit surprised that Beth had never mentioned something like that to Kevin -- they seem to be closer than we originally thought; plus Kevin adores his nieces...that feels like a thing he might have reasonably surprised her by knowing.

Ohhhh Randal: the agony of running against an incumbent!  Even an unpopular one.  

Ohhhhh Beth: there was a Sex & the City ep where the women discussed the danger of showing emotion in the workplace (Samantha ran to an elevator so Richard wouldn't see her burst into tears).  I have been where you were tonight.  I really wanted to hug you. But then we both would've started bawling and what good would that do.

Feels like this ep could've been subtitled: "Everybody has ish".  Which is accurate.

Saying the pillowcase is for my hair is fine. But I can't see Beth telling Kevin that Zoe sleeps on a satin pillowcase. It's not that big of a deal and we don't all sleep on them. If my mother decided to sleep on a satin pillowcase, I'm pretty sure my dad wouldn't ha e known why unless she said it was better for her hair. And he wouldn't have cared. 

Edited October 24, 2018 by love2lovebadtv

[Kirkydee]

To an earlier post.  Yes, the restaurant owner is Richard Gant, who was the promoter in Rocky V - the Don King wannabe.  If anyone watches Greenleaf he plays a nice role there.

I'm a black man and married to a black woman for 21 years.  Also 3 sisters and a mother. Never knew about pillow cases.  Although I've seen my fair share of scarves.  Probably for the same reason as the satin pillowcase.  But, c'mon Zoe.  Is it that hard to say " my texture of hair is different than yours?" 

What threw me for a loop was Randall's prom date.  Dad didn't approve, but did he forbid his daughter from going? If she's a senior it's her time to shine also.  A lot of time, effort and money went into her.  Was she that shattered that she just didn't go on HER big day.  If this were another type of show- they would've went and she would've came home at sunrise with her dress inside out

And yes, Kevin did notice the racist dad.  People were probably focused on Randall's reaction, but Kevin was stunned.  As for Kevin not picking up the cashiers racism I can relate to a degree. I'm a nurse and work with a predominantly female crew.  A few have told me about sexist Male doctors.  I said I didn't notice.  Their reply?  " Of course YOU didn't notice it, you're a man.  He's not gonna be sexist to you"  

[Amethyst]

1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

No it was a to highlight that Kevin, like most people can recognize obvious racism.  It is the microaggressive type he is oblivious to which was very clearly shown.  When she said the grocery store lady was racist, Kevin immediately returned with "what did she say" when racism isn't always in your face with people saying stuff.  It can be very subtle.  So no it wasn't to highlight her stupidity rather a nod to his ignorance  because even living with a black brother he still can't get the nuances.

Like the pillow.  The thing with Zoe and the pillow is like the tail end of a long conversation you are sick of having.  I immediately got where Zoe was coming from with the pillow because it is a accretion of a life to having to explain stuff to non-black folks about blackness & black experience.  If she has been sleeping with him for awhile and she has a been sleeping on a satin pillow his obviousness to its significance is its own little microaggression.  Also been there and done that with some really stupid ass conversations about black women hair. And it gets old real fast.

Can't add much to this, but amen to this whole statement.  The fact that Zoe told Kevin about the cashier and the pillowcase was important.  Those are private details, things that will happen with Zoe and not with Kevin.  If Kevin was just a booty call, Zoe wouldn't bother telling him any of this, because it wouldn't be worth it. 

But the bolded is true too.  It's not Zoe's job to educate Kevin on Black Life, or Black Women's Hair, and it's tiring to do so.  Sometimes it's not worth it to try.  The fact that Zoe did talk to Kevin means she credits him more than she thought.

[voiceover]

12 minutes ago, love2lovebadtv said:

Saying the pillowcase is for my hair is fine. But I can't see Beth telling Kevin that Zoe sleeps on a satin pillowcase. It's not that big of a deal and we don't all sleep on them. If my mother decided to sleep on a satin pillowcase, I'm pretty sure my dad wouldn't ha e known why unless she said it was better for her hair. And he wouldn't have cared. 

No, I didn't mean I was wondering why Beth didn't tell Kevin about Zoe's pillowcase.  Because that would be...weird.  

I meant, we've known since early days that Beth spends a lot of time & money on her hair (even if that does not include a special pillowcase); we know now that Beth & Kevin are closer than originally thought; we know he spends time with his nieces.

So for **** those reasons****, it might've been a nice little thing, for Kevin to have guessed the pillowcase ish.  I don't know anyone who sleeps with one, but that's a conclusion I jumped to when Zoe brought it up -- for much the same reasons Kevin might have.

On the other hand:  

Sorry to go there, but a straight man paying that sort of attention to things like pillowcases or face cream?  Would've been a bigger surprise.

[mommalib]

My heart continues to break for Randall. As a teen being rejected by white people and being rejected by black people as an adult. And all he has is the best intentions.  And why the hell did Kevin go to that prom instead of going with his brother?

[love2lovebadtv]

26 minutes ago, voiceover said:

No, I didn't mean I was wondering why Beth didn't tell Kevin about Zoe's pillowcase.  Because that would be...weird.  

I meant, we've known since early days that Beth spends a lot of time & money on her hair (even if that does not include a special pillowcase); we know now that Beth & Kevin are closer than originally thought; we know he spends time with his nieces.

So for **** those reasons****, it might've been a nice little thing, for Kevin to have guessed the pillowcase ish.  I don't know anyone who sleeps with one, but that's a conclusion I jumped to when Zoe brought it up -- for much the same reasons Kevin might have.

On the other hand:  

Sorry to go there, but a straight man paying that sort of attention to things like pillowcases or face cream?  Would've been a bigger surprise.

You'd probably notice that a woman sleeps on a satin pillowcase, travels with it, etc unless all the pillowcases are satin. Either way, you probably wouldn't care lol. I would prefer to just say the pillowcase is better for my hair than for him to assume I do something because another black woman he knows does that to her hair. I don't like the generalizations. It's not like she's a diabetic and Kevin didn't know why she needed insulin. Kevin knows Zoe has a different type of hair from his. She could have explained less and he still would have understood. 

I think Zoe made a generalization because she's uncomfortable dating a white guy. The pillowcase is not a universal black thing and I know many of the black men in my family haven't seen it. 

I know at least part of Beth's family is Caribbean. I wonder if zoes discomfort extends to black people from different cultural backgrounds who speak different languages and eat different foods. 

[mommalib]

2 hours ago, deaja said:

I’m glad Randall’s event didn’t go well. I like Randall (most of the time) but he can’t just waltz in to every situation and think he can fix everything.

I liked the Miguel stuff. 

Overall, I really enjoyed this episode, but my heart broke for teenage Randall and adult Toby. :(

 

2 hours ago, Laurie4H said:

The racist stuff just seemed so contrived.  It would be so much more effective if it didn’t feel like a political agenda.

Wasn’t the restaurant owner the promoter guy from Rocky 5?

Racism is a reality, the problem is some people don't want to deal with it. My advice to those people is to think about the people that have no choice.

[love2lovebadtv]

16 minutes ago, mommalib said:

My heart continues to break for Randall. As a teen being rejected by white people and being rejected by black people as an adult. And all he has is the best intentions.  And why the hell did Kevin go to that prom instead of going with his brother?

Teen Randall was heartbreaking. No fault of his own. 

But adult political wannabe Randall? He was rejected because he leaped into something Pearson style, thinking he could do better without doing any due diligence. I agree his intentions are good. But if he had done his homework, he would have understood the people's experiences better. Maybe instead of running against the other guy, he could have partnered with him to clean up the neighborhood. The money spent on on his campaigning could have gone to that effort. Involve companies looking to get into corporate social responsibility. It would be a team effort instead of thinking he can save the day by himself. His kids need him at home. I feel for the guy but he came off as aloof and oblivious. 

Good point about Kevin. Was that to show us how he can detach from the racism and just go to the prom? Or to show us Kevin drink too much and Miguel swooping in. Or maybe he didn't want to disappoint Sophie. 

Edited October 24, 2018 by love2lovebadtv

[twoods]

Sad teen Randall always makes me cry. People suck. A lot. 

Young Toby was adorable. I’ve always liked his character so glad we got a back story. Same with Miguel.

Loving Kevin’s storyline. Charlie Robinson was a Vietnam vet on both NCIS and This Is Us tonight so it confused me a little at first.

[ProudMary]

2 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Kate's voice is pretty average. No way would someone follow her in real life to tell her she should audition for The Voice.

Unless it's the set up for Kate to be on The Voice.  :eyeroll:  We've had some discussion here about the possibility of that happening dating back to S1.  Just think, Kate's client who thinks she has such talent, has a connection and Voila!  Carson Daly shows up to tell her she's been selected for a blind audition!  

I was really surprised that Randall and his date didn't go to the prom despite the actions of the father.  The girl's mother was very nice to Randall when he showed up at the door.  I would imagine that both the girl and Randall would have been very upset by her father's reaction, but I'd think that the mother would step in to say that they should go to the prom, knowing how much it meant to her daughter, and that she'd talk to the father after they left.  My bet is that it wouldn't be the first time she'd have to try to smooth things over with her racist husband.  I wish the writers would have shown us the aftermath of that scene.   Then again, if Randall wouldn't have come home early, Miguel wouldn't have had the opportunity to give him the Pearson-esque speech.

[Emily Thrace]

1 hour ago, love2lovebadtv said:

Does anyone know how I can find a clip of the scene with the cashier? I didn't think Kevin was even looking so I was surprised she was upset that he didn't know about it since it wasn't what she said but her disapproval and disdain,which he wouldn't have seen if he wasn't looking. But maybe I don't remember correctly.

When I was watching I thought Kevin actually did pick up on what racist lady was getting at. I wondered if he just wasn't sure what to say or felt it wasn't worth saying anything. I'm sure he has had that happen with Randall and gotten the "that's your brother?!" reaction a hundred times before. Although I can also how he might also see it as that woman was just a bitch having a bad day. I've had moments like that when I have been in a group with white people and someone is glaring every time me and my native girlfriends are laughing or we seem to be getting poorer service and had to explain why to the white people with us.

I felt for Miguel when Randall walked away from him but I can also see this exactly how the issues with him and the big three started. It felt like he was trying to be Jack not just trying to help. Which I don't think Miguel even realizes he is doing but at the same I can see exactly why it pisses of the Big three. That's what makes this show so interesting is that they keep peeling back the layers.

[voiceover]

"I'm tired of always having to explain [fill in the blank]."

"I'm tired of people automatically assuming [same blank]."

I think Zoe and Kevin have some nice chem.  I think they could find common ground as re: their respective life baggage.

And I'd like to see Kate and Randall (speaking of baggage) set their respective personal loads down for a bit, and engage in a little "Jack Pearson-ing"-support of their respective mates.  One way to view this ep, is as a prism of the emotional lives of the Pearson clan mates.  Beth, Toby, and Miguel could be forgiven for wanting to set down the pom-poms for awhile.

I think I felt most keenly for Beth tonight.  Especially since I believe I wrote during Season 1: "She's so perfect!  Quick, give her a flaw...make her a Patriots fan!"  It's always tougher to watch someone who usually has it all together, crack.

[sheetmoss]

Want to give the makeup artist some props on the fine job of making 67yr old  Wendi Malick look incredibly good as portraying younger Toby's mom.... and not in a Baby Jane kind of way

   Then again, they had a nice canvas from the start

Edited October 24, 2018 by sheetmoss

[Drumpf1737]

5 hours ago, notcreative enough said:

Zoey is everything that I hate about people. Like how dare Kevin not know something that she isn’t willing to tell him. Her and the army guys wife being a poor stupid white boy seemed very mean spirited. And who randomly starts talking about their relationship with someone they just met. Maybe if she was talking to Beth it would seem organic. I hope that we see the end of her soon.

If I can expertly spray your hair with AquaNet, help tease it while you're hanging upside down--yeah I'm a little resentful that you don't know about silk pillowcases and hair bonnets. It's exhausting to explain cultural distinctions because some are so innate, you don't realize they exist, but honestly, it's hurtful because it's a product of racism that others don't have a genuine understanding of our culture beyond rap videos and Wendy Williams. 

Part of the reason racism still exists is that a person of color pointing out that something is racist is almost always met with defensive aggression. Nobody said Kevin was "a poor stupid white boy". There was a discussion between two women who share a cultural shorthand--the question unspoken when Zoe shared that story was whether she wanted to take on explaining all the little distinctions to him. Kevin was actually great because he didn't jump to the store clerk's defense, he listened. 

Beth, you need some comfort and support and hubby is oblivious. Someone should teach Randall how to just listen. I believe someone else on this board has mentioned he rushes off to fix things without really hearing the problem.

Buying that silk pillowcase was a very "Jack Pearson" thing to do.

Edited October 24, 2018 by Drumpf1737

[tennisgurl]

2 hours ago, Dreamboat Annie said:

Has "known his family for years"?  Known Randall's family for years?  That IS his family.  They ARE HIS family.  Yes they grew up together but not only that, Kevin and Randall were newborn babies together, they were brothers, growing up together in the same family. 

I think I phrased that wrong, I meant Randall's nuclear family unit as an adult, as in Beth, Randall, and the girls. They're all very much his family! 

[Dowel Jones]

2 hours ago, SuzieQ said:

No!!  When I saw the necklace it made me wonder if there were some Asisan Pearsons running around!

Of course there were.  Who do you think did the backroom negotiations for the Paris Peace Accords?

[NUguy514]

Ugh, Kate...

Seriously, I can't with her anymore.  Take your self-aggrandizing, sad-sack bullshit and shove it.  No one asked for or cares about it.

ETA: Oh, and I totally got the conversation between Zoe and Charlie Robinson's wife.  As a gay man, I end up explaining many of the same things again and again to my straight friends and family members.  It really does get exhausting.

Edited October 24, 2018 by NUguy514

[mommalib]

2 hours ago, love2lovebadtv said:

Teen Randall was heartbreaking. No fault of his own. 

But adult political wannabe Randall? He was rejected because he leaped into something Pearson style, thinking he could do better without doing any due diligence. I agree his intentions are good. But if he had done his homework, he would have understood the people's experiences better. Maybe instead of running against the other guy, he could have partnered with him to clean up the neighborhood. The money spent on on his campaigning could have gone to that effort. Involve companies looking to get into corporate social responsibility. It would be a team effort instead of thinking he can save the day by himself. His kids need him at home. I feel for the guy but he came off as aloof and oblivious. 

Good point about Kevin. Was that to show us how he can detach from the racism and just go to the prom? Or to show us Kevin drink too much and Miguel swooping in. Or maybe he didn't want to disappoint Sophie. 

 

In fairness to Randall he tried to talk to the guy but the guy either blew him off or flat out didn't do what he said he would. Does Randall need to slow down ? yes but I will never fault him for trying because he does a hell of a lot more than others would even attempt to. He's just trying to honor both his fathers and find his place. As for young Kevin he was always jealous of Randall and I always thought there was a little subtle racism toward Randall on his part. So I guess I shouldn't be surprised that he didn't defend Randall or go home with him.

Edited October 24, 2018 by mommalib

[Spencer Hastings]

One of the things I love most about this show is that it hits tiny details that people can actually relate to, especially those who are often under represented. This is US, not just some of us within a certain subgroup. Growing up, the stuff that Zoe points out wasn’t on television because it would have been called contrived. That representation wasn’t there so like Zoe, I felt like I had to be silent a lot.  

When I went on a trip with a friend and she literally rolled her eyes and laughed at my head scarf, I stopped bringing it along because I was embarrassed about her perception of me. When I’m with my white friends and subtle moments of racism happen, I’m silent because they are ignorant to what is happening and just don’t pick up on those cues.  What if they tell me I’m being paranoid because nothing racist was said? When the love of my 7th grade life broke up with me because his grandpa would be mad if he dated a black girl, I just brushed it off and pretended to understand.  What seems so contrived to some viewers is so very real to others.  I appreciate the writers for trying to show a variety of issues, even those that I can’t relate to personally. 

Edited October 24, 2018 by Spencer Hastings

[NUguy514]

4 minutes ago, Spencer Hastings said:

When the love of my 7th grade life broke up with me because his grandpa would be mad if he dated a black girl, I just brushed it off and pretended to understand.  What seems so contrived to some viewers is so very real to others.

If I were straight, you would've been the love of my 7th grade life. :-)

I get it, though.  The number of very well-meaning straight people who've said to me, "I know this gay guy, and he's also single.  You guys should totally meet!"  Like, that's not how attraction works, and it just makes me feel so diminished, and the conversation about why it's diminishing really can be exhausting because the intention really does come from a loving place, however misguided.  Randall's and now Zoe's feelings of "otherness" have been very relatable to me even though my "otherness" is of a different ilk.

[Lily H]

I was surprised that Randall didn't go to the prom after all. When the girl's father looked at Randall and said something like, "I can't do this", I assumed he meant taking pictures of the two of them together. He didn't say his daughter couldn't go or tell Randall to leave, he just walked away. So why not just say goodbye to her mother and go to the prom?

Also, WHY would Toby have flushed all his meds down the toilet? Obviously for this plot line, but still. They presumably cost him money, and not taking them was a temporary thing, so why not just put them in a drawer until he was ready to start taking them again? It's not like they were Oxycontin or something and he was addicted to them and wouldn't have the willpower to leave them alone. And just stopping cold turkey like that was a really dumb thing to do anyway.

[Drumpf1737]

5 hours ago, love2lovebadtv said:

This is not something all black women do nor is it something only black women do.

Everybody eats fried chicken too but somehow it became uniquely associated with Black people.

 

5 hours ago, love2lovebadtv said:

I remember Randall saying that Beth wore a scarf at night.

Different hair textures require different methods of preserving moisture. Also depends on whether your hair is chemically treated or not. It's funny the Black women I know who don't use Black haircare products or maintenance methods always have shitty hair and stridently argue against the need for them. One of my girlfriends eventually had to shave her head because she would not switch to a satin pillowcase or scarf and used a series of products that just made her hair increasingly drier. I never said I told you so but I thought it always.

[debraran]

55 minutes ago, Lily H said:

I was surprised that Randall didn't go to the prom after all. When the girl's father looked at Randall and said something like, "I can't do this", I assumed he meant taking pictures of the two of them together. He didn't say his daughter couldn't go or tell Randall to leave, he just walked away. So why not just say goodbye to her mother and go to the prom?

Also, WHY would Toby have flushed all his meds down the toilet? Obviously for this plot line, but still. They presumably cost him money, and not taking them was a temporary thing, so why not just put them in a drawer until he was ready to start taking them again? It's not like they were Oxycontin or something and he was addicted to them and wouldn't have the willpower to leave them alone. And just stopping cold turkey like that was a really dumb thing to do anyway.

I dozed for a few seconds last night and wondered if I missed something with the prom. Kevin goes without his brother and just gets drunk? Liquor in the limo? I wasn't sure what happened there. Miguel was nice trying to tell Randall about his own experiences, I always liked him and wanted a real relationship with Rebecca. I don't know what exiles him to Texas, new job, etc but it is sad the family is still the same way years later. I wonder if Rebecca felt guilty feeling something about anyone but Jack but I'm glad she let herself be happy later. My God do you remember when she felt guilty laughing with him during a tv show and Kevin walked in? Geez...they must have been awful in the beginning.

The med thing was ridiculous, but the Toby flashbacks were done well. You can end up in a very bad place doing what Toby did and it's not always as easy as going back on them.

My kids are mixed and asked for satin pillowcases early on. I use one too but not all the time. One daughter is natural and one relaxes and I think even in 20's they have had to have the hair conversation more times than not with white friends who don't understand things but it is an education. The care, how often you wash it, products, etc do differ. My kids know their white friends they have had a long time understand things that others don't but we all are learning (hopefully) about each other every day.

Edited October 24, 2018 by debraran

[Mommaj]

My daughter tried using a satin pillowcase for a while in hopes her long, unruly hair would tangle less overnight. My mother used a satin pillowcase to preserve her teased and sprayed 60's hairdos. So I get using that kind of case to keep hair from getting hung up on regular fabric when you toss and turn.. But I'm not understanding how a satin case (or a headscarf) will keep hair from being dry. Can someone explain?

[debraran]

14 minutes ago, Mommaj said:

My daughter tried using a satin pillowcase for a while in hopes her long, unruly hair would tangle less overnight. My mother used a satin pillowcase to preserve her teased and sprayed 60's hairdos. So I get using that kind of case to keep hair from getting hung up on regular fabric when you toss and turn.. But I'm not understanding how a satin case (or a headscarf) will keep hair from being dry. Can someone explain?

From website:" Satin pillowcases are very smooth which means that your hair won't get tangled up while sleeping on them. ... Cotton pillowcases strip this moisture from your hair making it brittle and dry and that's something you don't want. So, that's another benefit that satin pillowcase can provide for your hair."

The breakage is less,  one of my daughters likes a satin cap (very large) instead, scarves fall off.  My sister who is white, uses one because she has tight curls that frizz less with it and she is always hot so it's cooler.

another article :https://verilymag.com/2017/07/two-minute-beauty-read-silk-pillowcases

Edited October 24, 2018 by debraran

[gohawks]

6 hours ago, love2lovebadtv said:

I'm so glad you said this. It felt like Zoe tried to make this pillowcase a piece of black culture rather than something women may do as part of a beauty regimen. Just like I would be annoyed if he assumed she slept on a satin pillowcase because she's black. 

It is something Black women do. It is commonly done by Black women. I knew immediately what she was talking about.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

That Was Us:

[Veronica]

At this point, Kevin is my favorite of the Big 3. Kate is annoying and if she’s dead in the flash forward, I’ll shrug and move on.  Teen Kevin was self-absorbed just like 99.99999999% of teens are.

I’ve always liked Miguel and thought the hate towards him was silly. The Saint Jack thing annoys me. The Pearsons canonizing him because he’s dead and died in a shocking way. 

Rebecca did the heavy lifting as the mom and Jack got to be the fun one for the most part. 

Honesy, Kevin and Rebecca are my favorites. Then Annie and Tess. Beth and Randall are a great.  Randall has Beth to thank for that. I like Toby more than Kate but that’s not saying much. 

I knew the pillowcase/scarf thing and if I hadn’t seen the clerk at the store and only heard her, I might have thought nothing of it like Kevin. He was too busy looking at the snacks he was buying. I was expecting someone in the store to recognize him and be tweeting pics of him and Zoe to TMZ, not casual racism from a convenience store clerk. 

[Neurochick]

5 hours ago, mommalib said:

My heart continues to break for Randall. As a teen being rejected by white people and being rejected by black people as an adult. And all he has is the best intentions.  And why the hell did Kevin go to that prom instead of going with his brother?

I think that was the issue with Randall.  On one hand, white people are telling him he doesn’t belong because he’s black, and then he comes across a black who tells him he doesn’t belong because of where he’s from.  It’s like the man can’t win.

There is a woman on YouTube, who does videos about race and she speaks more about lineage than color.  A person can be black, but their lineage and life experience can be different than those of most black people.  That’s what Randall is dealing with.

Now, the pillowcase.  I stand corrected.  When I was a child, I slept on a satin pillowcase, but now I, and most black women I know, wear headscarves to bed.  I guess the pillowcase made more sense than a headscarf, since it’s easier to travel with one.  Also Zoe could have found a headscarf easier than a pillowcase.

[debraran]

7 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I think that was the issue with Randall.  On one hand, white people are telling him he doesn’t belong because he’s black, and then he comes across a black who tells him he doesn’t belong because of where he’s from.  It’s like the man can’t win.

There is a woman on YouTube, who does videos about race and she speaks more about lineage than color.  A person can be black, but their lineage and life experience can be different than those of most black people.  That’s what Randall is dealing with.

Now, the pillowcase.  I stand corrected.  When I was a child, I slept on a satin pillowcase, but now I, and most black women I know, wear headscarves to bed.  I guess the pillowcase made more sense than a headscarf, since it’s easier to travel with one.  Also Zoe could have found a headscarf easier than a pillowcase.

My daughter found a large satin cap that she loves, like  a shower cap style. She got an orange one that we teased her about but she loves and a black one. Stays on for her better.

I remember being an interracial couple missing some of the racism, but of course saw most of it. I lived thankfully in a very multi-cultural neighborhood, middleclass I suppose but very mixed. Randall's was probably mostly white but it's hard to tell since they don't show much of school or friends, etc. My children told me later in life, the times strangers thought they were adopted....we really did look alike, lol.  The most hurtful thing as a kid was hearing a mom say she didn't want my kids at a party because her daughter might think "that was okay" meaning my marriage. I don't know where she was from, but I have a feeling her daughter learned for most, it is. Most of my daughter's white friends learned about racism from life and seeing things through others eyes that weren't white. Sometimes you have to point it out, it becomes background, but you do learn.

Randall bounded strongly to his bio dad but Randall is Randall, he shouldn't try to fit anywhere, he is a blending of 2 families, don't be ashamed of that, it is who you are.

Edited October 24, 2018 by debraran

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Oh, Toby. First you flush all your meds without telling anyone and now you think you can just get some more by talking to a pharmacist? All a pharmacist can do is fill a prescription. She can't actually write one for you. GO TO YOUR DOCTOR.

I love how supportive Randall and Beth are of each other. Did Randall really think he was going to win people over by telling them, "Hi, you don't know me because I don't live here but your neighborhood is fucked up. I'm here to save you all!"?

Poor teen Randall missing the prom because his date's dad was a racist asshole.

Kate needs to learn one of Miranda Bailey's many lessons: when someone gives you a compliment, you smile and say, "Thank you!" The end. You don't pour out your personal life, especially to a client.

I was surprised that Zoe wasn't documenting the entire visit with Jack's war buddy (Mac!) so that she could turn it into a documentary. I like that Kevin is delving into Jack's past and trying to understand his experience. I felt for Zoe because it sucks when you experience one of those moments and it feels like you're all alone (which she was since Kevin was too busy looking at snacks to notice).

As for the pillow thing, I get where she's coming from. Constantly explaining your otherness can be exhausting and that's a lot of effort for something that's just a fun friends with benefits kind of situation. For people who don't understand what it's like, imagine having to explain how and why you do something that is part of your basic daily routine. Why do you take a shower in the morning? Why not at night? Why do you use that specific soap? Why do you use a shower gel instead of bar soap? I've never heard of that brand before. Where did you get it? Who told you about it? How long have you been using it? Have you tried other brands? What about other scents? Why do you like desert rose better than fresh lilac? Do you use a loofah? Why don't you use one of those mesh shower poufs instead? Now imagine having to explain all of that several times a week or every time you meet a new person. That's kind of like what explaining your otherness is like. To you, it's just what you do. But you end up having to explain the same things over and over constantly. It's not that what you do is super complicated or anything to be embarrassed about. It's just tiresome having to share this information repeatedly and after the hundredth time, you're just kind of over it even though you know you're going to have to do it again pretty soon.

Edited October 24, 2018 by ElectricBoogaloo
Because "was" isn't the same as "wasn't"

[notcreative enough]

5 hours ago, Drumpf1737 said:

If I can expertly spray your hair with AquaNet, help tease it while you're hanging upside down--yeah I'm a little resentful that you don't know about silk pillowcases and hair bonnets. It's exhausting to explain cultural distinctions because some are so innate, you don't realize they exist, but honestly, it's hurtful because it's a product of racism that others don't have a genuine understanding of our culture beyond rap videos and Wendy Williams. 

Part of the reason racism still exists is that a person of color pointing out that something is racist is almost always met with defensive aggression. Nobody said Kevin was "a poor stupid white boy". There was a discussion between two women who share a cultural shorthand--the question unspoken when Zoe shared that story was whether she wanted to take on explaining all the little distinctions to him. Kevin was actually great because he didn't jump to the store clerk's defense, he listened. 

 

 

First when I said I hate people like Zoey it’s more the cover sensitive highly offended youth of American. I also think there is a huge different between ignorant and racist. But my perspective is very different because  its not something that i ever have to face. There is a lot of racism in this world and it is getting worse because it seems to be more ok because of the people/person leading the charge. I’m sure it does get exhausting having to explain things to people. Maybe it’s my whiteness but if you don’t tell me something that means something or is important to you how an I supposed know.  
I spotted the cashier being racist but I also wouldn’t say anything to her. I would have waited until after we went to the car. Every time they What Would You Do show is on I’m answer is always nothing because you don’t know how people will react anymore. People can turn violent at the drip of a hat and while what’s happening might be terrible the most I will do is alert the proper authorities. I’m not surprised Kevin don’t notice because he’s the type of guy who is 75% Kevin 25% rest of the world. And in that moment it was all about what candy Kevin wants
As I said it would be different if she had this conversation with Beth someone who knows them both. But she had it with someone she doesn't know. She has the power to alter this woman option of Kevin because she doesn't have one yet. Sometime what people say about you has more impact then the first impression you have of someone. And if they want to explore Zoeys issues with an interracial relationship that great. It's a story that needs to be told. She just wasn't exactly getting advice fro someone in an interracial relationship.

Edited October 24, 2018 by notcreative enough

[Trillium]

Yes the heavy handed hint that Jack might have a Vietnamese family. Except it will be twist!!! Nicky’s instead. 

Because Jack Pearson, Patron Saint of Fatherhood, would never abandon his children. Even ones he wasn’t aware of.  He’d just know.   

Other than that, I like Miguel. He’s re real saint in this show. 

Edited October 24, 2018 by Trillium

[Katy M]

8 hours ago, breezy424 said:

The show has officially jumped the shark with me with Randall running for office because his father's name was on a lease.  Umm.  Wouldn't Randall have to go through a process to prove that William was his actual biological father?  Just saying...

He said he put his name on the lease also when William moved in.  Williams being related to him would do nothing.  He still has to have the apartment  

 

8 hours ago, breezy424 said:

Lastly, I don't know of a doctor who wouldn't prescribe an antidepressant renewal over the phone for someone who has been on one for a long period of time.  Any doctor knows you just don't stop any of those medications.   Cold turkey?  Nope....

But, he did stop.  unless you mean he should have lied to his doctor and say that he just dropped a bunch of them that day?  That would probably have worked to get him pills.

 

7 hours ago, voiceover said:

I meant, we've known since early days that Beth spends a lot of time & money on her hair (even if that does not include a special pillowcase); we know now that Beth & Kevin are closer than originally thought; we know he spends time with his nieces.

I don't think I've ever discussed someone's hair care regime with them, so I don't find it odd at all that Beth and Kevin would never have discussed that.

 

3 hours ago, NUguy514 said:

I get it, though.  The number of very well-meaning straight people who've said to me, "I know this gay guy, and he's also single.  You guys should totally meet!"  Like, that's not how attraction works, and it just makes me feel so diminished, and the conversation about why it's diminishing really can be exhausting because the intention really does come from a loving place, however misguided. 

You know that happens to straight people, too, right?

5 hours ago, Drumpf1737 said:

yeah I'm a little resentful that you don't know about silk pillowcases and hair bonnets. It's exhausting to explain cultural distinctions because some are so innate, you don't realize they exist, but honestly, it's hurtful because it's a product of racism that others don't have a genuine understanding of our culture beyond rap videos and Wendy Williams. 

Why is it racist if you don't know what another race (some people of another race) do in the privacy of their bedroom?

[Arcadiasw]

9 hours ago, Katy M said:

Randall, you don't need to fight so hard to stay somewhere you're not wanted.  And, Chichi was helping him?  I thought she more or less couldn't stand him.

Dan Lauria always plays a jerk. And why did I think he was dead?

I thought Chichi did more sabotage than help. She used large fonts for Free BBQ but very small font for it's purpose and Randall's name. When Randall questioned her about it, her excuse was her job was to get people in and Randall had to do the rest. If she really believes in Randall, she could've done more like talk to the people about Randall and get some interest in him. 

9 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

 

Meanwhile, I felt super bad for Beth and wanted to give her a hug. Randall is just....so narcissistic and Beth can't even be honest with him since she's trying to be supportive. And yes, I fully understand that Randall and Beth have seemed to lay out some things and that Randall said he'd quit the electoral race if she was uncomfortable. But Beth is, once again, sacrificing her happiness for Randall and he can't see it. If he did, I do think he'd drop out, even without her asking. 

I also felt super bad for Teenage Randall. I think even Teenage Kevin was shocked to see such racism in front of him. 

It's great Beth and Randall support each other but sometimes you have to say no to your SO. Randall running for office is extreme. 

[Empress1]

9 hours ago, DearEvette said:

No it was a to highlight that Kevin, like most people can recognize obvious racism.  It is the microaggressive type he is oblivious to which was very clearly shown.  When she said the grocery store lady was racist, Kevin immediately returned with "what did she say" when racism isn't always in your face with people saying stuff.  It can be very subtle.  So no it wasn't to highlight her stupidity rather a nod to his ignorance  because even living with a black brother he still can't get the nuances.

Like the pillow.  The thing with Zoe and the pillow is like the tail end of a long conversation you are sick of having.  I immediately got where Zoe was coming from with the pillow because it is a accretion of a life to having to explain stuff to non-black folks about blackness & black experience.  If she has been sleeping with him for awhile and she has a been sleeping on a satin pillow his obviousness to its significance is its own little microaggression.  Also been there and done that with some really stupid ass conversations about black women hair. And it gets old real fast.

 

You better preach. As someone who has experienced both, being called the n-word feels like getting punched. Micro-aggressions feel like death by a thousand cuts. I've been called the n-word a handful of times, but I deal with micro-aggressions quite literally every single day. Those are the things white people don't notice (and perpetrate on the regular, frankly). If the store clerk had SAID "Get out of here, Black girl" or something, Kevin would've jumped on that, but that subtle "hmph" look the clerk gave Zoe would go right over his head if he'd been looking at her. "Maybe she was just having a bad day." "The line was long, I'm sure she was just trying to move it along."

I sleep on a satin pillowcase and tie my hair up with a satin scarf. The pillowcase is both in case the scarf falls off at night, and for my skin. Cotton is very drying. I would not expect Kevin to know that; I doubt Randall talks much about Beth's and his daughters' nighttime regimens. I felt TERRIBLE for teen Randall sitting alone on prom night. Why didn't his date go? Hasan Minhaj has a similar story in his (excellent) special Homecoming (in his, his date goes anyway, just not with him. He gets to her house to pick her up, there's a white date there, and her parents tell him he wouldn't look right in their pictures).

I'm surprised Randall didn't get booed. Philly folks are not known for their politeness.

Kate really needs to stop dragging people into her personal business. I can't stand her. Nobody cares about her issues besides her family, who are plenty supportive. Also, are we really pretending that singing is a viable career choice for 38-year-old Kate with that voice? She's fine. She's not "make it" good, especially at 38.

Quote

 

Randall's was probably mostly white but it's hard to tell since they don't show much of school or friends, etc.

 

Randall said on his Howard visit that his school was all white - remember, they put him in private school. He does have Black friends as a kid - that family he befriended at the pool stays friends with him through his childhood. I THINK it's one of them that he visits at Howard, but I'm not sure.

Edited October 24, 2018 by Empress1

[Pallas]

Quote

The racist stuff just seemed so contrived.  It would be so much more effective if it didn’t feel like a political agenda.

In the U.S., anti-racism is no more political than anti-monarchism. Racism claims that one ethnicity is entitled to hold privilege and wield power, where others are not. That's political. But the civil structure of the U.S., where the show is made, rejects that premise. There's no issue: it's decided. The U.S. says, This Isn't Us.

The show's angle on racism isn't political, it's personal, ethical, social and cultural. The way it is experienced by people: as a darkness in ourselves and in the world. The show says, This Is Us. Where do we go from here?