S02.E03: Virtù e Fortuna

[Pop Tart]

5 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Not sure what is going on with the woman that got chased out of Colonial India World into Westworld, but I'm guessing that will be expanded upon later.

I know there are theories about her being related to someone else on the show, but I’m wondering if she’s a reporter perhaps (could still be someone’s daughter). I’m basing this on her carrying around her little notebook.

I’m getting timelines mixed up I think, but in present day Charlotte meets up with the security forces and asks where they’ve been. She then tells Bernard she’s surprised he’s made it and then asks where Peter Abernathy is. But in the days past when Charlotte and Bernard were making their way through the park they come upon Peter being held by random baddies. When Peter gets taken by the soldiers Charlotte makes a run for it and Bernard is taken too. Bernard and Peter end up at the fort. When the fort is attacked by the security forces Charlotte’s team sneaks in and grabs Peter, leaving Bernard behind. Charlotte then escapes with Peter. But in present day when she sees Bernard she asks where Peter is?

[Notwisconsin]

45 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I agree.  Are we also going to "British World" and watch Queen Victoria give no fucks as the Irish starved to death?

I think she gave a quarter fuck. That's not "no."

15 minutes ago, FlowerofCarnage said:

There is a very good reason something is off with her interaction with Bernard. I can spoil it if you want.

please do!!!!

[FlowerofCarnage]

22 minutes ago, Notwisconsin said:

I think she gave a quarter fuck. That's not "no."

please do!!!!

Spoiler

There is a scene one of the previews where Charlotte comes up a room full of  multiple Bernards. One can assume Ford would create a new slightly aged Bernard to help pass him off as a normally aging human. 

[Athena]

18 hours ago, Dev F said:

Rajworld, especially, seems like more of "advanced-level" park than Westworld, so the fact that you're a skilled enough player to go there and kill the tiger boss is probably a point of pride among parkgoers, so it would make sense if you get a physical version of a PS4 trophy to show off to your friends back home.

On DelosDestinations, TPTB's marketing website for Delos, lists Rajworld as a world for pampering and hunting, but seems to have less conflicts than the other two worlds. It lists Shogun world as the most intense and for people who don't think WestWorld is enough. Taking the video game analogy, each park has easy levels (family friendly) and harder ones (MiB going further into WW), but they offer a different experience and are slightly tipped for certain tourists. 

 

11 hours ago, Netfoot said:

Well, just before the fall, she was struggling to get a cartridge into a horrible, cartoony, double-barreled sawn-off.  (Given her background in hunting and the selection of weaponry available - lovely Artillery Luger, BTW - why she would pick that up instead of an express rifle, I can't say.)  But I'm assuming she gave the tiger one at PBR just as they tumbled off the cliff.

For that matter, wasn't Clementine destroyed too?  Yet here she is...  I am no longer expecting too much from the continuity department on this show.  I'm sure they can explain everything if pressed ("Because: Time-Skipping!"), but I've stopped worrying about it.

She was rather in a rush when the host attacked them so she didn't have her artillery on her. They stopped to the camp before setting off for the hunt so she only had the smaller and more portable artillery.

Clementine was decommissioned last S1 and put in the cold storage with Peter Abernathy. Sizemore or someone else had discovered that all the decommissioned hosts had left the facility. Most of them seemingly went to Wyatt/Dolores' team. Ford most likely coded them their new roles.

 

1 hour ago, Pop Tart said:

I’m getting timelines mixed up I think, but in present day Charlotte meets up with the security forces and asks where they’ve been. She then tells Bernard she’s surprised he’s made it and then asks where Peter Abernathy is. But in the days past when Charlotte and Bernard were making their way through the park they come upon Peter being held by random baddies. When Peter gets taken by the soldiers Charlotte makes a run for it and Bernard is taken too. Bernard and Peter end up at the fort. When the fort is attacked by the security forces Charlotte’s team sneaks in and grabs Peter, leaving Bernard behind. Charlotte then escapes with Peter. But in present day when she sees Bernard she asks where Peter is?

This Bernard missing days timeline is still ongoing and not fully revealed. Charlotte at the end of this episode does have Peter in the missing days timeline (about 2-3 days max post-gala) but considering the "present" timeline, she still does not have him. Perhaps Dolores' folks catch up with them, but Peter keeps escaping from their grasp. 

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Ottis said:

The first time I read this, my thought was, "Now, let's not bring that into this show." And then I thought about what sort of the historical "lands" I would have created in a Westworld ... dinosaurs, Jesus's time, Ancient Egypt, Greece and Rome, American Revolution, the Old West (OK, that one matches), maybe the Civil War and WWII. 

The Original Movie had 3 options: Roman; Medieval England; Old West

[Pippin]

From an article I read Here, (search under "Westworld")  think maybe PETA might have had some reason initially for concern.  Seems HBO hasn't had an exactly stellar track record with animals. I think PETA  can be a bit Looney tunes sometimes** but useful,  as society requires groups that push the envelope; that's how progress happens. 

**And sometimes they're bloody well spot-on. Like with big-game hunting.

To keep this post vaguely on topic, does anyone think there's the host equivalent of PETA in the outside world? People For The Ethical Treatment  of Androids? Maybe that should be in a different thread, though, eh?

[tennisgurl]

Love that we are seeing different parks! We start out in Colonial India world, and now we get Samari World! If I was going to go play in the park, I would want an ancient Rome world, or get to explore the Library at Alexandria, or some other ancient thing. Of course, thats just me, I would take sitting around reading or checking out Roman architecture than killing poor robots or having robo sex any day of the week. Really, the narratives seem to be kind of lame, at least most of the ones we see. Its just an excuse to kill people or have sex, very lowest common denominator. No wonder Maeve was making fun of Sizemores writing last week. 

Felix is back! Glad to see he survived! And I like the Maeve/Hector/Sizemore combination, now with Felix and a few of the other tech guys. Honestly, a Yukon story sounds better than most of the stiff we`ve seen. Maeve and Hector are cute, and I love that she didnt care that Sizemore wrote Hectors words for him. I guess her plan is to get her daughter, get her to remember her, and then just disappear into the real world with Hector and her kid? I dont see that ending well, as nice as it would be.

Grace is a tough chick, even though now she seems to be dealing with even more crap. So. how are ALL the hosts waking up? I wonder if Grace is some kind of reporter or something, and that why she seems to know so much? Pretty sure, with the tiger, her story is taking place now, but who knows? 

Doloris meeting her "father" was really well done, and I really felt for Doloris again, after seeing her slide further and further into villainy. What she doesn't seem to get is that she is basically turning into the humans she hates so much. Now she uses hosts as things to be used and thrown away when they stop being useful, just the way the park did. Maeve basically called it last week, but she hasn't been programmed to understand irony I guess. And now Teddy is over her and her world domination plans, much to her disappointment. "I just asked you to murder 10 or 15 guys Teddy, why are you making this such a big deal? God!" 

Charlotte might not be on the up and up, but she is certainly a survivor. 

[msrachelj]

On 5/7/2018 at 12:49 AM, Pippin said:

Well, I'm fascinated but full-blown gonzo confused. And totally hooked.

It makes total sense that Raj/India World would be set during the British Colonial period; power, empire, dominance --all part of the "mindset" (for lack of a better term) that those who come to this park crave.

I was cheering for the tiger, BTW. I loathe big game hunting and those who practice it --they're all bloody cowards as far as I'm concerned, and I'm sorry that beautiful animal (even if not real) died and that bitch lived. I was yelling at the screen while she was running from the cat, "Now you know how it feels! Not so much fun now, is it?!!" I should only wish this would happen more often in real life. (I never said I was nice!)

So I'm guessing Peter gets away somehow, yes?

I've read some of the theories on Reddit; I won't repeat any because my brain is still trying to unscramble itself. Still, I think this is half the fun of this show: all the theorizing that goes on!

i'm confused also. and with you 100% on the hunting issue. i was also rooting for the tiger. i said to my husband," well great, if this season is going to show tiger hunting, i won't be able to watch". he is just a soft as i am but also more sensible and replied "but they're fake". doesn't matter to me though!  i can't even think about the horrors of hunting especially for "sport!", i will get sick to my stomach. 

[DarkRaichu]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

If I was going to go play in the park, I would want an ancient Rome world, or get to explore the Library at Alexandria, or some other ancient thing. Of course, thats just me, I would take sitting around reading or checking out Roman architecture than killing poor robots or having robo sex any day of the week.

Funny, when I mentioned Rome/CaesarWorld the other day, I was imagining Roman civil war (legions vs legions), conquering britannia, taking over Egypt, gladiators uprising, or burning down Rome :D :D :D

[Solace247]

Man, it appears I am in the minority both here and elsewhere--I enjoyed this episode and am totally invested in seeing how Dolores' arc turns out. I'm sure it's going to be a process, so I'm just along for the ride. I'm also incredibly patient with this show, which I would consider a requirement for season one, so I'm not really getting all the complaining about pacing or plot since we all obviously stuck it out in the first season--and it had repetition as part of its storytelling. Plus, it's episode 3 of 10. Anyone remember how far the plot had advanced in season one after 3 episodes? Everything looks par for the course to me. I'd considered myself hard to please in the past, but apparently it's the opposite with this show--I enjoy westerns though, as well as science fiction (though not all) so this meets me on multiple levels. 

Another minority opinion? Maeve's storyline appears to be the favourite of most, but I'm not digging the daughter angle at all, particularly because I don't think it will work out as Maeve hopes (and would rather not spend the time to come to that conclusion) and also from a logistical point as hosts don't age whereas child actors do (looking at you Ford, Jr.).

Edited May 11, 2018 by Solace247

[tennisgurl]

Really, if they wanted to create all of these super realistic world, why not get more creative? Like, make a space world or Middle Earth or something really cool and interesting? That sounds like more fun than traipsing around the Wild West shooting human like robots, or shooting possibly fake tigers. 

I feel really bad for Clementine. She practically seems like a ghost.

[notcreative enough]

On 5/6/2018 at 10:38 PM, TobinAlbers said:

The woman survived that fall with a tiger pawing at her. She's made of tough stuff. Would be a hoot if she's William's daughter

It would explain why she knew not to sleep with the hosts. 

[DarkRaichu]

6 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Really, if they wanted to create all of these super realistic world, why not get more creative? Like, make a space world or Middle Earth or something really cool and interesting? That sounds like more fun than traipsing around the Wild West shooting human like robots, or shooting possibly fake tigers. 

I feel really bad for Clementine. She practically seems like a ghost.

I think the fake world still needs to be familiar for the guests to be fully immersed.  If the fake world contains some fantasy elements that do not exist in the real world, the guests' minds would automatically question the realness of the fake world.  Like if I walk around in a jungle and a dragon lands in front of me, I would question if it is real.  But if I see an animatronic tiger (fake but look real enough), my first instinct is to run away from danger.     

[Gobi]

1 hour ago, DarkRaichu said:

I think the fake world still needs to be familiar for the guests to be fully immersed.  If the fake world contains some fantasy elements that do not exist in the real world, the guests' minds would automatically question the realness of the fake world.  Like if I walk around in a jungle and a dragon lands in front of me, I would question if it is real.  But if I see an animatronic tiger (fake but look real enough), my first instinct is to run away from danger.     

We've been told, I believe, that there are six different parks, of which we've seen three, so it's possible there is some sort of Middle Earth type park.

I'm still having trouble with how the guns work. It seems that the bullets can only bruise, not kill or wound, humans. Yet Dolores and some others have period guns that seem to be firing real bullets. Hard to believe that Delos would allow real ammo in the park, aside from security's; too risky, in my opinion. 

[Matt K]

2 minutes ago, Gobi said:

We've been told, I believe, that there are six different parks, of which we've seen three, so it's possible there is some sort of Middle Earth type park.

I'm still having trouble with how the guns work. It seems that the bullets can only bruise, not kill or wound, humans. Yet Dolores and some others have period guns that seem to be firing real bullets. Hard to believe that Delos would allow real ammo in the park, aside from security's; too risky, in my opinion. 

My understanding is that the ammo itself is some sort of special "smart" ammo that acts like a real bullet on hosts and doesn't on humans but now everyone registers as fair game.  It makes little sense but is a fantastic element that doesn't really bother me all things considered.

[Haleth]

3 hours ago, Gobi said:

We've been told, I believe, that there are six different parks, of which we've seen three

Four. Maeve and her gang are in the Klondike narrative. (Unless this is a really remote part of Westworld.)

Edited May 9, 2018 by Haleth

[DarkRaichu]

27 minutes ago, Gobi said:

We've been told, I believe, that there are six different parks, of which we've seen three, so it's possible there is some sort of Middle Earth type park.

Possible, but I could not see Ford developing those kinds of narratives

35 minutes ago, Gobi said:

I'm still having trouble with how the guns work. It seems that the bullets can only bruise, not kill or wound, humans. Yet Dolores and some others have period guns that seem to be firing real bullets. Hard to believe that Delos would allow real ammo in the park, aside from security's; too risky, in my opinion. 

 

31 minutes ago, Matt K said:

My understanding is that the ammo itself is some sort of special "smart" ammo that acts like a real bullet on hosts and doesn't on humans but now everyone registers as fair game.  It makes little sense but is a fantastic element that doesn't really bother me all things considered.

Heh, we talked about this last year during season 1. The best we could come up with was some kind of programmable bullets.  However, I just could not see how that would work with bigger guns, like the one used to shoot the killer host in Rajworld.  The bullets were 1/3 the size of that woman's hand and the gun pretty much tore part of the host's head.   The physics just did not add up ;) I just did not think about it too much :P

[Athena]

Nolan answered an interview question about the bullets. Read it here. It seems to relate to velocity. Hosts have a more sensitive skin in general and the light impact of the guns would kill or hurt them easily. It would bruise as it did Grace's human paramour this episode.

In 2x01:

Quote

Charlotte : Tell me this is some sick trick. Some twisted game.

Bernard : They're off their old loops. And they seem to be on some new narrative.

Charlotte : What about the fucking guns?

Bernard : Ford must have altered the system, coded it to read all of us as hosts.

This still doesn't explain everything but it's a sci-fi show so I can handwave it.

[Dev F]

23 hours ago, Athena said:

This still doesn't explain everything but it's a sci-fi show so I can handwave it.

Yeah, they clearly just want us to go with it, but logically speaking it's a wildly terrible system. Why would you design it so it's even possible to read humans as hosts? Anyone who cared at all about safety would code the guns to remain nonlethal unless they receive an "OK to kill" signal that only the actual hosts can transmit. I suppose it's possible that Ford just cheesed the code so it always reads an "OK to kill" signal whether it's transmitted or not, but that's not really how Bernard describes it, and he seems to know the technology pretty well.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Dev F

[arc]

On 5/7/2018 at 2:50 AM, dr pepper said:

02. Ok, now they have pellet guns, which robots react to as if they were real guns, whereas they only sting humans

No, the guns are magic technology that slow down their bullets if fired at a human. Robots might be coded to act hurt to gunshots but they also suffer real gunshot wounds. And as we saw with the Man In Black’s special gun that fires one shotgun shell, the guns can blast through solid objects. There’s no way every park could be rigged up with enough squibs to fake that kind of thing. Instead, the guns just don’t fire at regular velocity against guests. This was discussed somewhat on the Delos Inc website last season.

It appears that part of Ford’s resignation gift to Delos was changing this system so the parks’ guns no longer have this safety system on. … Which further implies that the opening scene in Rajworld took place before Ford let the hosts loose.

btw, the unnamed male guest of Rajworld saying that the hosts really wanted to keep guests from meeting each other in the park also ties in to that same stuff from the Delos Inc web site last year, which said that part of keeping guests safe in Westworld was that hosts would act to keep guest parties apart from each other.

[benteen]

Another strong episode, though not as good as last week.  I very much enjoyed seeing the new world and the first ten minutes was probably the best part.

I don't believe in big game hunting either and don't understand getting off on that stuff but this is basically a theme park where the guests hunt fake animals that can be easily repaired.  Better hunting fake animals in a theme park than real animals elsewhere.  I don't think the guest in the beginning deserved to die.

I'm glad Teddy is having second doubts.  He's one of the few likeable characters on this show.  Dolores is a murderer and a thug and like Maeve, she's a complete and selfish hypocrite when it comes to the other hosts.  Only they deserve the promise land but no one else. 

I did enjoy the Maeve and Simon interactions.

Really liked the battle scene.

Edited May 9, 2018 by benteen

[numbnut]

On 5/7/2018 at 5:25 PM, jane1978 said:

I was seriously annoyed with the search and destroy party going everywhere on foot or by car and not doing any immediate air sweeps of the entire area. And then that fully ridiculous "battle" between security guys and the Confederados. The show is trying and is still entertaining, but the premise is just too ridiculous to be truly engaging.

The humans did seem to take a dumb approach, walking in with no cover, though I figure they didn't do an air sweep because they're still looking to rescue hundreds of guests.

On 5/7/2018 at 2:00 PM, Madding crowd said:

I don't know if it is choice by ERW, but Delores has a continual blank stare and most of her speeches sound to me more like programming run amok than sentient thoughts. Maeve on the other hand, seems completely human which is why I am rooting for her.

Agreed. They clearly showed Delores waking up in S1 and she had a personality when she discovered her own voice, so, as Lee would say, "What... the fuck... happened?"

[The Companion]

16 hours ago, Haleth said:

Four. Maeve and her gang are in the Klondike narrative. (Unless this is a really remote part of Westworld.)

I think the Klondike narrative is part of Westworld. It is described as a narrative rather than a separate world. 

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, The Companion said:

I think the Klondike narrative is part of Westworld. It is described as a narrative rather than a separate world. 

Yep, it's definitely part of Westworld. Given that the three parks we know of are about such wildly different settings as the Old West, the British Raj, and the age of the samurai, I highly doubt there's an entire other park dedicated to "also the Old West, but cold and in Canada."

[Netfoot]

On 5/7/2018 at 3:00 PM, Madding crowd said:

I don't know if it is choice by ERW, but Delores has a continual blank stare and most of her speeches sound to me more like programming run amok than sentient thoughts.

She has the full range of facial expression I'd expect of a Toyota Camry.  And all the rights and feelings of a Camry, too!

[Pallas]

3 hours ago, numbnut said:

I figure they didn't do an air sweep because they're still looking to rescue hundreds of guests.

And capture a functioning Peter Abernathy. With his code intact, he's apparently worth more to Delos than all the guests combined. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

Really, the narratives seem to be kind of lame, at least most of the ones we see. Its just an excuse to kill people or have sex, very lowest common denominator. No wonder Maeve was making fun of Sizemores writing last week. 

That part of the original 1973 movie's premise doesn't hold up well in 2018. A western, Roman, or medieval playground seemed like a neat idea 40 years ago but I can't see a lot of people flocking there in the future with all the technology available right here at home. A more realistic offering would be a Purge world or a Zombie world or Mortal Kombat world. That's the type of fantasy that's going to appeal to the blood lust these parks are supposed to attract. Cowboys? Not so much.

[paigow]

7 hours ago, iMonrey said:

That part of the original 1973 movie's premise doesn't hold up well in 2018. A western, Roman, or medieval playground seemed like a neat idea 40 years ago but I can't see a lot of people flocking there in the future with all the technology available right here at home. A more realistic offering would be a Purge world or a Zombie world or Mortal Kombat world. That's the type of fantasy that's going to appeal to the blood lust these parks are supposed to attract. Cowboys? Not so much.

Avengers World, Bourne world, Platoon world....

[DarkRaichu]

40 minutes ago, paigow said:

Avengers World, Bourne world, Platoon world....

Bond World, definitely Bond World.  Gadgets, super cars, and babes.  Plus I can play as Goldfinger and hang around with Jaws and OddJob :D :D :D

[Netfoot]

Battle-of-Britain World, Lawerence-of-Arabia World, Pirates-of-the-Caribbean World (Arr!), ...  It goes on and on.  It's just about whether the company feels there will be sufficient demand to make it pay.

9 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Plus I can play as Goldfinger and hang around with Jaws and OddJob :D :D :D

And Pussy Galore!  But Thunderball is more to my taste.

[Pippin]

Don't forget Star Trek/Star Wars  worlds, Lord of the Rings world or Colonizing Mars world (the latter is my own idea).

[dr pepper]

On 5/7/2018 at 11:31 PM, Cthulhudrew said:

A little too convenient that Maeve and Co. trek halfway across the park only to run co-ink-a-dently into Armistice, Felix, and Sylvester. I think the writers could have come up with a less random encounter reason for them to link up again.

Did anyone else get the feeling that something was off with Charlotte when Bernard and the QA people met up with her? Something about her mannerisms made me think she might be getting a Host replacement down the line.

I've suspected that since the end of season 1.

[Black Knight]

On 5/9/2018 at 11:15 AM, iMonrey said:

That part of the original 1973 movie's premise doesn't hold up well in 2018. A western, Roman, or medieval playground seemed like a neat idea 40 years ago but I can't see a lot of people flocking there in the future with all the technology available right here at home. A more realistic offering would be a Purge world or a Zombie world or Mortal Kombat world. That's the type of fantasy that's going to appeal to the blood lust these parks are supposed to attract. Cowboys? Not so much.

Well, sex seems to be one of the two main attractions and the problem with the worlds you mention is that there isn't much room in them for sex and other "leisure activities." You're talking about essentially nonstop horror for the several days that a Park experience lasts. I don't think many of these uber-rich, pampered people are interested in that. An intense zombie experience that lasts a few hours? Sure, some of them would do that. A few days running from zombies? No.

A western, Roman or medieval experience doesn't necessarily sound that interesting, but the thing about them is that they do allow for a wide range of activities and plenty of downtime for leisure. If a guest doesn't like a particular narrative or a particular activity, it's easy enough for them to switch to something quite different. The worlds you suggest are too limited in what they can offer for narratives and activities and too intense for a trip of several days. Yes, some hardcore gamers would be attracted - although I suspect it'd wear off quickly for a significant number of them after a few hours running around trying not to be "killed," because that's way more tiring than playing a videogame - but on the whole a western, Roman or medieval world would attract greater numbers of of the wealthy pampered people who are the parks' customers. Both because of the factors I mentioned above and, somewhat related to the factors I mentioned above, such worlds are also open to wider ranges of age and physical condition.

[CarpeFelis]

Am I the only one who’d like the tiger programmed as Big House Cat rather than big game?

[Netfoot]

53 minutes ago, CarpeFelis said:

Am I the only one who’d like the tiger programmed as Big House Cat rather than big game?

That would be cool... but I'm not a cat-person.  I'll just have to settle for this guy:

[Head-Full-Of-Thi]

Alright so thoughts:

1. The Raj was beautiful!!! About the colonialism theme, I think it was on purpose. The writers are going for social commentary on colonialism and racism this season. The guests go for a place for it's beauty and possibilities while thinking the locals are just there to serve them and are less than human, which is basically what happened in real life there. And also to the real life First Nations. And this episode was a huge tease about a Ghost Nations storyline which I'm hoping would be great.

2. About Grace, when the hot guy said "why would a host pretend to be a guest" the camera turned to her face at the mirrow for a few seconds and she had this sober expression and didn't say anything. I think that could mean she's a host. Also she never had the gun test herself. But it can be also because she fell in love with someone who turned out to be a host.

3. Speaking of Ghost Nation, the theme this episode seemed to be the hosts' morality and free choice:

 

 

1) By not giving Lee to the Ghost Nation hosts, Maeve basically chose the person who wrote her daughter's death over the person who committed it. Even though she knew that everything was scripted, she still couldn't get over her own trauma.

2) Dolores's comment about how the Confederados are just children, which she later changed her mind on or just never intended it who knows. Yet Teddy chooses to belive that now.

3) Bernard saying to Dolores that everything he did to the hosts was part of a programmed loop just like the one they were on.

4) Bernard changing Rebus's stats so he would be most chivalrous person ever. If just like that in a swift movement of Bernard's finger the guy's personality can change so drastically, then how can we blame him for who he was before that?

4. I actually didn't think Dolores was disappointed in Teddy, just intrigued. I thought that when Teddy told her he doesn't remember Abernathy she kinda gave up and now she's wondering if Teddy is finally on the right path. Of course it sucks that it means that he will make his own choices seperate of her, especially when she just realised how much she needs him when she tells him "you're all I got now".

5. Omg the scene with Dolores and her dad was so touching. Evan Rachel Woods is truly a phenomenal actress! After a few episodes of not really feeling Dolores, this scene made me sympathise with her again.

6. When Lee Sizemore said that Maeve and Hector were not programmed to be together it was technically true, because Maeve hooking with Hector was a part of Ford's 'infiltrate the mainland' narrative. But it is outside of Maeve's programming and high self preservation stat to continue with it.

I wonder if when Lee learns that the first part of Maeve's journey was programmed it will cause him to doubt her humanity and consciousness again, which will ruin this fresh sort-of friendship.

[tabularasa]

Am I the only one who hated the episode? It felt like a zombie show or a western. I miss Hopkins, the psychological aspects of the show, the mystery. I miss the season 1 vibe so so much! Btw, why should I root for hosts? They became so unlikeable.

[Black Knight]

On 5/7/2018 at 10:27 AM, marcee said:

I know it's been said before, but it bears repeating. Charlotte is too young to have *been there, done that*. When she took the gun and put on her vest like it was old hat I just wanted to know when she had the time to go through SEAL training in between hacker school, college degree(s) and enough time to climb the corporate ladder to attain her position. Why couldn't she be a sexy older woman who actually personifies the boss she's trying desperately to be.

Tessa Thompson is almost 35. It seems reasonable enough to me. Just because she knows how to handle a gun and put on a vest doesn't mean she was in the military. (And in fact I'd put my money down on her not, because she stayed in the vehicle rather than taking an active part in the raid to get Abernathy, and because of the way hers and Bernard's rescue of the group of humans+Abernathy was conducted - it was very much that of two people who don't have a military or law enforcement background.)

She's had plenty of time to climb the corporate ladder to reach her position - especially in the tech world, which is heavily biased towards young people anyway. Many of them reach Charlotte's rank or higher at younger ages.

[Morrigan2575]

On 5/6/2018 at 10:38 PM, TobinAlbers said:

The woman survived that fall with a tiger pawing at her. She's made of tough stuff. Would be a hoot if she's William's daughter.

I was thinking Emily as soon as she showed up in India.

This episode has convinced me that Dolores is not awake she's playing a (Ford) re-worked Wyatt role. I think this is Ford's finale Story/game/FU. I can't help remembering that the story he wrote (for the season 1 finale) had Teddy takig Dolores to the water and in this seaosn we see (at some point in time) all of Dolores' soldiers dead in the water.

I think Maeve might really be awake/alive but, I wouldn't be surprised of S2 ends with the reveal that none of the Hosts are awake.

I do think Dolores might grt out of the park and pursue some sort of final Ford story. 

[SoWindsor]

On 5/7/2018 at 8:06 AM, zobot81 said:

For the life of me, I can't figure out what's missing from this season. On paper, I should be enjoying it as much as the first one, but so far, it just feels like the pacing is too...fast. And somehow, that's boring?  There used to be masterful use of silences and non-violence, to build tension. Now it seems like the opposite is true -- a LOT of talking and violence is making me ambivalent.  I hope it changes, for my sake. I might be in the minority, though...

I’m not feeling it either and it’s really confusing.

WHo was the guy in the beginning? Looked like Bill Skarsgard but didn’t see his name anywhere. 

I loved this show last season but am not enjoying this season at all. It’s way too complicated and I can’t  figure out what’s going on.

[Head-Full-Of-Thi]

On 9.5.2018 at 5:39 PM, numbnut said:

Agreed. They clearly showed Delores waking up in S1 and she had a personality when she discovered her own voice, so, as Lee would say, "What... the fuck... happened?"

The scene with her dad I think proved that it's intentional. ERW did not lose her acting ability. I think Dolores is just trying to be  Emotionless because that's what she needs to be right now, but it won't last for long because even if she doesn't want to admit it she still has people she cares about, like her father and Teddy.

[Nashville]

On 5/7/2018 at 6:15 PM, Hootis said:

If they're gonna portray modern military, I wish they'd hire someone who could inform them of basic tactics.

Charging across open ground against a prepared position is suicide. Cars or no cars.

Echo echo.  Not to mention the Confederales - who to a man are supposed to be programmed as grizzled veterans of many a battle - do not scatter for cover when they find the door barred behind them, but instead TURN THEIR BACKS TO THE BATTLE AND KEEP BEATING ON THE DOOR UNTIL SHOT FROM BEHIND...!?!?  

THAT particular bit sent my bovine scatological detector into overdrive.

[Gobi]

3 hours ago, Nashville said:

Echo echo.  Not to mention the Confederales - who to a man are supposed to be programmed as grizzled veterans of many a battle - do not scatter for cover when they find the door barred behind them, but instead TURN THEIR BACKS TO THE BATTLE AND KEEP BEATING ON THE DOOR UNTIL SHOT FROM BEHIND...!?!?  

THAT particular bit sent my bovine scatological detector into overdrive.

I don't know, makes sense if they were programmed to always lose, and be a bit cowardly to boot.

[dgpolo]

2 minutes ago, Gobi said:

I don't know, makes sense if they were programmed to always lose, and be a bit cowardly to boot.

It is difficult to speculate on a show where you can't count on anything being true or believe anything that anyone says.

[Nashville]

On 5/14/2018 at 4:29 PM, Gobi said:

I don't know, makes sense if they were programmed to always lose, and be a bit cowardly to boot.

Even so, I’d expect even a coward to, yaknow, shoot back.

[Scaeva]

On 5/7/2018 at 7:15 PM, Hootis said:

If they're gonna portray modern military, I wish they'd hire someone who could inform them of basic tactics.

Charging across open ground against a prepared position is suicide. Cars or no cars.

I'm willing to suspend disbelief on that because the humans with guns are just civilian corporate security, and prior to everything going to hell in a handbasket probably didn't have much opportunity to hone the skills they'd need to assault a fortress. It's probably not a situation they anticipated. Going about it like rank amateurs has an element of believability to it

Now if the Chinese military shows up at some point and looks just as inept, I'd be fully on board with the action scenes needing to be better choreographed.

[ACW]

On 5/7/2018 at 7:15 PM, Hootis said:

If they're gonna portray modern military, I wish they'd hire someone who could inform them of basic tactics.

Charging across open ground against a prepared position is suicide. Cars or no cars.

I think of the QA teams (as opposed to the later troops) as something between mall cops and animal control officers, not as "military".  I mean, it's not like they seem to have had much to do until recently.

[AudienceofOne]

I personally loved this episode. This show has to go wider and it had to expand to work. I feel it's pulling it off. I get the mysteries of the first season make it more... engrossing... because you didn't yet know what you didn't know. This is the equivalent of seeing behind the curtain. We know they're messing with time now so it's lost some of its impact.

On 07/05/2018 at 12:38 PM, TobinAlbers said:

Sizemore got some character background so he's a dead man walking. Adored Sizemore saying Hector's lines. But I will also contend that while Hector is reciting lines he was programmed with that he may still be applying the words associated with love/devotion correctly to what his newly awakening sentient brain perceives as love/devotion for Maeve.

For me, what they're going for here is that the android's "programming" is akin to a childhood. So you can say "oh, he's still just following his original programming even with self-awareness" but aren't we all? Don't we mirror the things modelled to us as children when we're adults. Don't we behave like our parents or steal dialogue from TV and books or respond to situations as we're taught?

This folds into what Dolores said about the other androids being "children". If you can see programming as analogous to a person's childhood "programming" then you further blur the lines between them and us.

On 07/05/2018 at 12:47 PM, WatchrTina said:

Well that was entertaining if . . . puzzling.  I'm not sure why Dolores felt the need to shoot all of the solders from the fort.  

 

Strategically, I didn't understand this either. She's killed a lot of perfectly good troops and I didn't see that it helped them win. I think I've missed something.

On 07/05/2018 at 1:17 PM, TrininisaScorp said:

As a Desi, the moment it opened, I yelled "fucking hell, it's the British Raj period".  Of course, THAT is the period of Indian we are going to see.  Freaking colonizers (thanks, Black Panther)!   

The similarities between "conquering the West" and "conquering the East" are obvious. I too thought it was a brilliant choice. Wildlife to hunt, natives to dominate, new worlds to conquer.

On 07/05/2018 at 2:49 PM, Pippin said:

It makes total sense that Raj/India World would be set during the British Colonial period; power, empire, dominance --all part of the "mindset" (for lack of a better term) that those who come to this park crave.

This

Spoiler

I was cheering for the tiger, BTW. I loathe big game hunting and those who practice it --they're all bloody cowards as far as I'm concerned, and I'm sorry that beautiful animal (even if not real) died and that bitch lived. I was yelling at the screen while she was running from the cat, "Now you know how it feels! Not so much fun now, is it?!!" I should only wish this would happen more often in real life. (I never said I was nice!)

I had mixed thoughts about this whole thing. It raised some awkward questions for me because I

Spoiler

agree about the cruelty of big game hunting too and believe that it's wrong in real life. (I'm a vegetarian and I don't see the appeal of hunting at all unless it's needed for genuine survival. JMO.) That being said, I disagree with the idea that the woman deserves to die because she was hunting a robot animal that can easily be repaired and brought back to life. I find it distasteful that the woman gets off on the hunting fantasy, but I wasn't actively rooting for her to die. To me that's a case of the punishment not fitting the crime. 

and 

On 08/05/2018 at 2:38 AM, Blakeston said:

I'm also disgusted by big game hunting - so I'd be glad if a theme park opened up where people could hunt fake animals, and get their jollies that way.

Of course, there's a good chance the "fake" animals were sentient, so this isn't exactly an ideal alternative. But I'm sure the guests didn't know that, so I didn't hold it against them.

(Wanting the "be a great white hunter in colonial India" experience is something I do hold against them, though.)

but at the same time that directly contradicts my feelings about the treatment of the human-like androids. So I'm currently asking myself why. I'm not sure, but it's certainly a challenge to my emotional reactions versus my logic. People who shoot imaginary animals are still acting out violent fantasies. Maybe my lack of antipathy toward her was because of the scene in the beginning. She didn't want to have sex with a bot because they can't consent. So she at least knows the difference.

On 07/05/2018 at 10:57 PM, WatchrTina said:

But does she know he's a 'bot?  Bernard is the character that most confuses me.  The human's treat him like he's human and the 'bots . . . well I'm not sure.  When Clementine drags him away she does it in the same way she dragged that other human to the gate so I think she think's he's human (and now a captive.)

 

Dolores knows she's a bot. I think it's because he has to be a bot because she knows that Arnold is dead. After all, she killed him. He's walking around looking like Arnold and acting like Arnold and so she knows he can't be Arnold. Ergo bot. But as far as I can tell, the other characters and the security systems are pogrommed to recognise him as human. 

On 08/05/2018 at 2:28 AM, Chris24601 said:

I'm beginning to wonder too if some Dolores' choices aren't quite as free as she thinks. Just like the outlaw that Sizemore was able to repeat the words of how much he loved Maeve as he spoke them, even if they're now starting to make free associations, they've still got their coded personalities built into them that shape their decision making processes.

This relates back to my idea (and Dolores' words) of 'childhood' and how it might actually support rather than contradict the notion these beings are self-aware.

Edited June 21, 2018 by AudienceofOne

[Hanahope]

One the one hand, I agree that hunting is bad.  But given that the animals aren't real, its a little less bad.  

I think the woman with the tiger will continue in the story, or we wouldn't have seen her washed up on the shore, the writers would have just let us believe she drowned or was killed by the tiger during the fall into the lake.

I wonder if Peter Abernathy is a bit screwed up because of the big download and jerry-rigged thin character line given him, which is far from his current story line, or if his problems are due to him being one of the first hosts affected by the upgrade/memory awakening/dump that woke Dolores.  Did Charlotte choose the wrong decomminishened host?

Bernard sure is able to survive, one way or another.

Glad to see Armitise again.  Such a great pair with Hector.  

Did Maeve's group accident cross over into Shogun world, or did the samauri cross the line too?

I think the hosts are able to recognize other hosts because of that mesh-net Bernard mentioned before.  So the Native American knew Seymour wasn't a host because he didn't 'sense" him the same as Maeve.  Its also why Bernard still lives, because the other hosts know he's a host too.

[Stella]

On 5/7/2018 at 1:27 PM, marcee said:

Why couldn't she be a sexy older woman who actually personifies the boss she's trying desperately to be.

Great comment. The actress from Borgen that was on the first season exemplifies this idea. Sidse Babett Knudsen who portrayed Theresa Cullen.