S06.E05: The Great Patriotic War

[alvajon]

On 4/25/2018 at 9:10 PM, CaliCheeseSucks said:

The Elliott School Of International Affairs at GW is highly regarded. I would have expected that by having her attend GW, it would have been part and parcel with getting her into Elliott's program and on that path to a career post in government/international relations/diplomacy. But not only isn't she doing that, they keep revealing her as so dumb, it boggles the mind that she was accepted into any university with a halfway competitive admissions process. 

Maybe I missed it, but who is paying for Paige’s college, when P&E can’t afford now to keep Henry in school? I don’t remember any mention of scholarships, etc. 

[Cthulhudrew]

Anyone else get the feeling that Phillip's warning won't really matter, and that Elizabeth (or someone, but probably Elizabeth) will still end up kidnapping Kimmie in Greece and that things will end very badly?

Am I wrong in thinking that something like this has happened in a previous season, where Phillip didn't pull through on a mission for some reason and Elizabeth ended up finishing it brutally? I could totally be thinking of something else entirely. (Like probably a Breaking Bad or Fargo plotline.)

Edited April 27, 2018 by Cthulhudrew

[CaliCheeseSucks]

51 minutes ago, alvajon said:

Maybe I missed it, but who is paying for Paige’s college, when P&E can’t afford now to keep Henry in school? I don’t remember any mention of scholarships, etc. 

Going off my memory of money-related discussions from prior episodes, I think that's another plot hole as the money problems aren't consistent in the family. G.W. is not a cheap school, either.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Philip was MVP this week! Not only did he show Paige that she still doesn't know shit about fighting but he tried to save Kimmie. The latter may come back to bite him in the ass. Talk about a very specific warning to give her - I know he was doing everything within his power to keep her out of harm's way but the way he blurted that out without any further explanation like "those communist countries are really dangerous and I don't want you or your friends getting kidnapped/robbed/hurt there" had to sound really weird to her.

If only I had known that downing a shot of olive oil would have kept me from getting drunk, I might have saved myself from some hairy nights in college!

[mwell345]

21 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Frankly, I'm beginning to resent the time spent on this unsatisfactory story line when time could be devoted to more interesting characters. A strength of this show was the complexity of the characters- as @tennisgurl said - and that has been abandoned with Paige.

I assume that she will have a major impact on the end game. She probably already has: Philip's traitorous turn, Liz's desperation.

IMO, any scene with Paige is a wasted scene.  And the scenes of her and Mom visiting Claudia are getting boring especially since this is the last season.   As for an impact, sometimes I think that Paige will be their downfall.  She's clearly not ready to  be a Jr. Spy and I think she's going to have a major screw up.

[albaniantv]

Wow, we really are 5 episodes away from the end. Can't imagine not wondering about, worrying about the Americans. Still love this show and most of the characters, and glad to have spent the time with them. I say that because many shows I spent this many years with, looking back I did not feel so kindly about and actually wanted to reclaim the time spent. (Lost, I am thinking about you especially.)

That said, I have one point to make that is tangential to plot, USSR-USA war and cold war history, FBI (and KGB and CIA) competence or incompetence and whether any of my favorite characters will survive the summit. 

Just because the several shows I have watched intently over the last several years also include Breaking Bad and Homeland, it's been hard to ignore that both adult and adolescent female characters seem to provoke anger and even hatred among quite a number of viewers. Here's an article I found interesting on this topic:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/homeland-star-morgan-saylor-tvs-most-hated-character-talks-back

I don't want to focus unduly on this, but I think the ire towards and hatred of Holly Taylor and her portrayal of Paige  parallels the red-hot negativity towards Anna Gunn's presentation of Skylar White in Breaking Bad and Morgan Saylor's interpretation of Dana Brody in Homeland.

In my view, Anna Gunn is a powerful and accomplished  actress, while both Morgan Saylor and Holly Taylor are quite talented young women, hitting all their marks in these demanding roles. 

Somehow, though, they seem to provoke irrational and disproportionate reactions to their craft, even to their presence. Concerning The Americans, I read a discussion by the showrunners and producers recently where they were horrified by the number of viewers who had requested that Paige be killed! A commenter on this site recently expressed the wish that Phillip had knocked his daughter unconscious to show Paige she was overestimating her combat readiness. 

Because they love them, most fathers would not want to knock their daughters out, regardless of the intended lesson.

The writers have been careful to differentiate the parenting approaches of Phillip and Elizabeth, but there seems to be love on all sides of the equations.

Of course, I want the whole family --Henry and Paige and Phillip and Elizabeth-- to survive, even though every episode makes me less certain that any of them will. 

[dr pepper]

Damn, Phillip. Seducing the girl you've grown to think of as at least a niece. It was pretty clear how awful he felt about.

[Ellaria]

5 hours ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

Going off my memory of money-related discussions from prior episodes, I think that's another plot hole as the money problems aren't consistent in the family. G.W. is not a cheap school, either.

I think that we have to push past the money problems as the show is presenting them. We don't know who is or isn't on scholarship, what the KGB may or may not be funding, etc. As a poster said in a previous thread, the money problems are included to demonstrate that capitalism isn't easy and financial success isn't guaranteed. It is part of Philip's character arc. It is going to drive him to do the right thing...whatever that may be right now.

5 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Anyone else get the feeling that Phillip's warning won't really matter, and that Elizabeth (or someone, but probably Elizabeth) will still end up kidnapping Kimmie in Greece and that things will end very badly?

I considered that as well. I'm hoping that Kimmie tells her father about the phone call from "Jim" but I am skeptical.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

[JFParnell]

9 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

OMG! I just realized the show runner wants us to wonder if E was using sex to get P to do what she wanted with Kimmie. Pretty brutal!

I confess I totally missed that too! I'm so glad this board full of laser-focused viewers exists so I can catch up on all the subtext that I miss each week while I'm busy making glib, snarky remarks to the TV (which, thankfully, doesn't reply).

[SunnyBeBe]

1 hour ago, albaniantv said:

Wow, we really are 5 episodes away from the end. Can't imagine not wondering about, worrying about the Americans. Still love this show and most of the characters, and glad to have spent the time with them. I say that because many shows I spent this many years with, looking back I did not feel so kindly about and actually wanted to reclaim the time spent. (Lost, I am thinking about you especially.)

That said, I have one point to make that is tangential to plot, USSR-USA war and cold war history, FBI (and KGB and CIA) competence or incompetence and whether any of my favorite characters will survive the summit. 

Just because the several shows I have watched intently over the last several years also include Breaking Bad and Homeland, it's been hard to ignore that both adult and adolescent female characters seem to provoke anger and even hatred among quite a number of viewers. Here's an article I found interesting on this topic:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/homeland-star-morgan-saylor-tvs-most-hated-character-talks-back

I don't want to focus unduly on this, but I think the ire towards and hatred of Holly Taylor and her portrayal of Paige  parallels the red-hot negativity towards Anna Gunn's presentation of Skylar White in Breaking Bad and Morgan Saylor's interpretation of Dana Brody in Homeland.

In my view, Anna Gunn is a powerful and accomplished  actress, while both Morgan Saylor and Holly Taylor are quite talented young women, hitting all their marks in these demanding roles. 

Somehow, though, they seem to provoke irrational and disproportionate reactions to their craft, even to their presence. Concerning The Americans, I read a discussion by the showrunners and producers recently where they were horrified by the number of viewers who had requested that Paige be killed! A commenter on this site recently expressed the wish that Phillip had knocked his daughter unconscious to show Paige she was overestimating her combat readiness. 

Because they love them, most fathers would not want to knock their daughters out, regardless of the intended lesson.

The writers have been careful to differentiate the parenting approaches of Phillip and Elizabeth, but there seems to be love on all sides of the equations.

Of course, I want the whole family --Henry and Paige and Phillip and Elizabeth-- to survive, even though every episode makes me less certain that any of them will. 

One thing this week about Paige that kind of pushed my buttons, was her cavalier manner in which she showed up to spar and then got in her mom's face, when she admitted to blowing her cover in the bar by fighting. Very adolescent, imo.  Then, she gets all cocky with her dad, like she's cut out for this serious spy stuff, while he's not. So silly.  Based on what we know about her, it's hard to swallow.  IMO, that's why people like seeing her get her butt kicked. And, why I wish that if someone goes down due to her careless disregard for precautions, it's her.  She's my least favorite character.  

To me, her character is not on the level of Dana Brody. She's more like a Carrie Mathis (first few seasons). (Out of her league, tempestuous, spoiled and incompetent).  It just irritates me that the writers could have handled this better, but, didn't.  They saw it going off in a bad fashion, but, hunkered down and plowed through.  So, here we are.  I just have to accept it and enjoy what I get from here on out. 

Edited April 27, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[mattie0808]

1 hour ago, albaniantv said:

That said, I have one point to make that is tangential to plot, USSR-USA war and cold war history, FBI (and KGB and CIA) competence or incompetence and whether any of my favorite characters will survive the summit. 

Just because the several shows I have watched intently over the last several years also include Breaking Bad and Homeland, it's been hard to ignore that both adult and adolescent female characters seem to provoke anger and even hatred among quite a number of viewers. Here's an article I found interesting on this topic:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/homeland-star-morgan-saylor-tvs-most-hated-character-talks-back

I never hated Skyler White or Dana Brody. I did have problems with some of the plotting for Dana after the first season or so (well, and did with the whole show and stopped watching after Season 3) but I was fine with the character and the actress. I loved Paige until last season. I don’t think she is turning out to be nearly as well-crafted a character as either of the other two mentioned, and that is one of my MAJOR disappointments with this show. Depending on how things end up, it may be the biggest/defining one. There were so many better potential ways to get Paige to this point, but, to me, they took perhaps the laziest, and just dumbed her down to get her here, starting with her reaction to what she was told about the wheat plot last year. Add in an admittedly common teen/college-aged kid’s attitude, and let’s just say the main emotion it’s going to garner from me is, at best, “come ON, get back to the actually good stuff,” and, at worst, “KICK. HER. ASS. PHILLIP. Don’t release that chokehold yet!” Lol.

[dr pepper]

Quote

Oleg's not here for the GRU [that's KGB for us non-Russians]

Actually, the GRU was soviet military intelligence. Not that after that she says "he's not here for us". Meaning he's not here for either spy agency.

[dr pepper]

On 4/25/2018 at 8:24 PM, jjj said:

Oh, Tatiana, Oleg really has your number. 

Did we know he had done some reporting on her "operation"?  I think she was actually angry, but also trying to make him feel guilty to get information out of him.  Please stay safe, Oleg. 

 

He gave Stan a small but significant clue that led to the capture of another deep KGB agent. They caught him holding the latest product of US biowar that he'd just stolen. Realizing there was no escape,  he deliberately infected himself which led to way more suffering than he would have had from a cyanide capsule.

[MisterBluxom]

16 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

For me it is a writing issue, not an actress issue.  That said, I don't think the actress is suited for her role on this show.  I am not saying she couldn't be good in something else. 

The problem I have with the character, is that Paige is too stupid and gullible to be believed.  She seems to buy into everything that she is being sold to her by Claudia and Elizabeth, and that just isn't believable in a person her age.  Perhaps if there wasn't a three year gap and we all saw what happened during that time my views would change, but the time jump really does hurt this show.

Fair enough. Thank you for your POV. I've always felt that Paige's character was out of sorts with the rest of the cast. There has always been something just "off" with her character.

I'm totally mystified why the show has seemed to spend so much time focused on her and so little on Henry. It's as if someone decided that Paige was far more important than Henry and they would just focus on her at Henry's expense. I've never understood that. Something just seems rotten about that.

[FormerMod-a1]

2 hours ago, albaniantv said:

I don't want to focus unduly on this, but I think the ire towards and hatred of Holly Taylor and her portrayal of Paige  ...

I don't think I've seen anyone hate Holly Taylor.  The worst I've seen is saying she's not a very good actress.  Paige, on the other hand, I'll give you.  

[qtpye]

10 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

OMG! I just realized the show runner wants us to wonder if E was using sex to get P to do what she wanted with Kimmie. Pretty brutal!

 

1 hour ago, dr pepper said:

Damn, Phillip. Seducing the girl you've grown to think of as at least a niece. It was pretty clear how awful he felt about.

 

1 hour ago, JFParnell said:

I confess I totally missed that too! I'm so glad this board full of laser-focused viewers exists so I can catch up on all the subtext that I miss each week while I'm busy making glib, snarky remarks to the TV (which, thankfully, doesn't reply).

I knew that it was a honey trap due to KR's very good acting. When E has made love to P before she was always very passionate and intense. Here she comes in very soft and girly. The way she walked into the room looking amazing in her dress (alluring, but classy) and softly reaches for him. The real tell was the sweet giggles she let out when they accidentally rolled over the calculator. This is particularly in sharp contrast to how she has been nothing but stressed out mess of hard edges lately. Phillip realized that something was up but he was way too enamored to resist. Of course later when she drops the Kimmy scheme, he realizes she was just manipulating him. It was also incredibly good acting when Phillip was forcing himself to have sex with Kimmy. I could tell he wanted to throw up but could understand how Kimmy would not be at all aware of this and would believe that this much older guy was really into her. Both actors did a great job with these tough scenes.

[Erin9]

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

One thing this week about Paige that kind of pushed my buttons, was her cavalier manner in which she showed up to spar and then got in her mom's face, when she admitted to blowing her cover in the bar by fighting. Very adolescent, imo.  Then, she gets all cocky with her dad, like she's cut out for this serious spy stuff, while he's not. So silly.  Based on what we know about her, it's hard to swallow.  IMO, that's why people like seeing her get her butt kicked. And, why I wish that if someone goes down due to her careless disregard for precautions, it's her.  She's my least favorite character.  

 

Paige’s cavalier attitude, arrogance that she can do anything and it’ll be fine, lack of thought into what she’s really involved in (general’s death), and condescending attitude towards Philip are big problems. But I buy it. And since Philip and Elizabeth are both addressing her head on different aspects of this, it works imo. This is better than Paige being depressed too. 

The more I think about it, the more I think Paige not being afraid anymore at the close of last season has led to a lot of these attitudes. She went from the extreme of sleeping in her closet to thinking she can handle anything. Not so much. But she thinks so. Though maybe Philip giving her a real world taste of sparring penetrated a little bit. 

She’s also had the comfort of an American (easy and safe) life. And Elizabeth has clearly not been training her properly. 

Paige sounds adolescent. Well she’s about 21, I guess. No real surprise that she thinks she knows it all. And getting to be a spy just increases the superiority complex. Especially with Elizabeth talking down to Paige about Philip. And part of the problem with the training is the mother/daughter elements mixed in. It’s neither all one or the other. Elizabeth holds back at times . And Paige sometimes responds to her like a whiny daughter whose mom is angry that she missed curfew. No real surprise imo. 

Plus, Paige has always been a know it all who embraced causes with enthusiasm and who responded to authoritiy figures. Think her embrace of Christinity and her attitude towards her parents on how much better she was than them. Or that Paster Tim knew all- period. (Until he proved he couldn’t be trusted.) Now she’s chosen the USSR and her mom/Claudia. Doesn’t mean she GETS what she’s involved in. This is an exciting game to her....for now. 

Edited April 27, 2018 by Erin9

[AllyB]

So I've slept on this and a couple of things stand out to me about two of the main plot strands of this episode. The first is Kimmie. Her plot has been integral to the show since she was first introduced. Philip's work with her was in many ways the final straw for Philip. She was where he drew his line in the sand. He would never have had sex with her as a teenager. If he hadn't tapped into her daddy issues he would likely have made a life changing decision even sooner. The Breland tape was also why P&E decided to stay in America at the end of season 5. And now, Kimmie is the reason why he has genuinely betrayed Elizabeth. He loved Elizabeth enough to finally actually have sex with Kimmie even when he had to know she was deliberately working him. But when it came down to actually going any further, he has not only refused to be part of it, but he has armed Kimmie with the knowledge that all is not as it has seemed and that she may be targeted in the future. Because of all of this, I think it was a mistake to relegate Kimmie so drastically after season 3. She popped up once in S4 and twice in S5. She didn't need to be there all the time but this plot has proved too important to be such a very, very background one for so long.

On top of that Julia Garner is actually a very, very good actress. The only reaction we got from her when Philip mentioned communist countries was the one word, 'what' heard over the phone. But she conveyed so much in it. I could feel her insides turning cold as the realisation of what Jim's word's might mean. Kimmie is a smart young woman and she has to now know on some level that Jim was never who he presented himself as. I'm sure she'll be on a rollercoaster of realisation and denial and probably terrified of telling her father what she suspects. So what she might do is anyone's guess. But I would have liked to have seen just a little more of her over the last two seasons.

The second thing I've taken from this episode is a different understanding of Paige. Sistermagpie compared her bar antics as behaving like a member of the X-men and I think that's pretty much accurate. Paige wants to be a superhero, she absolutely gets off on her training and strength. (I have met a number of young women in martial arts training who just really want to be Buffy. To be entirely honest, it's that desire for strength and power that drew me to martial arts as a kid.) It's why Paige stopped being in any way conflicted about her parents being Russian around the time Elizabeth started training her. It's why she was so cocky and superior feeling to Philip before he showed her a tiny taste of his capabilities. But the problem is that this side of Paige was never set up when she was younger.

We saw lots of Henry enjoying geeky subculture with his Start Trek and Star Wars fandom maybe we could have seen a little of that from Paige. Show her enjoying Wonder Woman reruns, reading comic books, later glorifying Julie Parish in V. In fact having her reading the X-men through the show's early years would have been a neat plot addition as she'd probably have identified with the newly introduced 13year old Kitty Pryde. A character who had a mostly forbidden attraction to a Russian teammate all through that period. It would have given her a step on the road to justifying her parents revelation of being Russian and the thought of getting to be a real life version of a superhero herself would have ultimately trumped her other natural qualms. We could see that Paige is getting off on the adrenaline of the spy business. It would explain why Elizabeth is taking the risk of allowing Paige to have a place on missions she should be nowhere near. And it would highlight the risk Paige presents without making her so completely obliviously stupid. An otherwise intelligent 20 year old can have a hero complex that can be manipulated (but not controlled) by someone more experienced. It also wouldn't be an unusual trait for Paige to have as Elizabeth certainly shares it, only her extreme training has made her much more disciplined and that shared with her upbringing, means she has a drastically different moral compass. 

[Erin9]

32 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

For me it is a writing issue, not an actress issue.  That said, I don't think the actress is suited for her role on this show.  I am not saying she couldn't be good in something else. 

The problem I have with the character, is that Paige is too stupid and gullible to be believed.  She seems to buy into everything that she is being sold to her by Claudia and Elizabeth, and that just isn't believable in a person her age.  Perhaps if there wasn't a three year gap and we all saw what happened, my views would change, but the time jump really does hurt this show.

I believe it. Paige likes her causes, doing something meaningful, and authority figures. Elizabeth is her mother. She badly wants to bond with her. Claudia is the grandmother she never had and always wanted. Extended family means something to her. Always has. 

Also if Paige starts seriously challenging E and C- and by extension Philip- that opens a whole can of worms on what her parents have really done and who they are. And what they’ve supported. She may not like what she finds out. 

Paige challenged her parents to a point, but as she once told Pastor Tim, they’re her parents. 

I’ve been really impressed with HT this season in particular. She’s sold the cavalier attitude, brat, condescension to Philip, naive and over eager spy, know it all.....

[whiporee]

53 minutes ago, qtpye said:

When E has made love to P before she was always very passionate and intense. Here she comes in very soft and girly.

I'd disagree with that. Every time we've seen Elizabeth initiate sex with Phillip, it's been to control him. The one that's sticking in my head right now is at the motel in Kansas (?) when he was asking why they couldn't grow their own wheat, and Elizabeth quickly went into sexy cowgirl mode. 

That wasn't the common interpretation at the time, but last night when I saw her put her hand on his face, I thought to myself she's honeytrapping him again. She can't help herself -- it's her reflexive reaction when she needs something from him. 

We've seen them mid-coitus a few times, and those seem more honest. But if the show makes a point of showing E making a move on P, it's been because she wants something or needs to make sure he's staying the course. 

[MisterBluxom]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

 

 

I knew that it was a honey trap due to KR's very good acting. When E has made love to P before she was always very passionate and intense. Here she comes in very soft and girly. The way she walked into the room looking amazing in her dress (alluring, but classy) and softly reaches for him. The real tell was the sweet giggles she let out when they accidentally rolled over the calculator. This is particularly in sharp contrast to how she has been nothing but stressed out mess of hard edges lately. Phillip realized that something was up but he was way too enamored to resist. Of course later when she drops the Kimmy scheme, he realizes she was just manipulating him. It was also incredibly good acting when Phillip was forcing himself to have sex with Kimmy. I could tell he wanted to throw up but could understand how Kimmy would not be at all aware of this and would believe that this much older guy was really into her. Both actors did a great job with these tough scenes.

I'm very impressed with your knowledge of this subject and I'm completely serious. You might want to consider writing a self-help book for teenage girls on "How to Seduce the Boy you Like".

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

One thing this week about Paige that kind of pushed my buttons, was her cavalier manner in which she showed up to spar and then got in her mom's face, when she admitted to blowing her cover in the bar by fighting. Very adolescent, imo.  Then, she gets all cocky with her dad, like she's cut out for this serious spy stuff, while he's not. So silly.  Based on what we know about her, it's hard to swallow.  IMO, that's why people like seeing her get her butt kicked. And, why I wish that if someone goes down due to her careless disregard for precautions, it's her.  She's my least favorite character. 

If these were real life characters, I would venture the opinion that one of the reasons for this is the way in which Elizabeth wants to bring her daughter along and help her develop into a real operative. But she also doesn't allow Paige to go anywhere near the sexual side of the job. She pretends that doesn't exist. So Paige has no real fair chance to understand that part of the job and I think it leaves her very vulnerable. If the show ends with Paige getting cocky and walking up to some bully in an attempt to kick his ass - but winds up dead instead, I would blame Elizabeth for only giving her "Half Assed" training.

[MisterBluxom]

16 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I think that we have to push past the money problems as the show is presenting them. We don't know who is or isn't on scholarship, what the KGB may or may not be funding, etc. As a poster said in a previous thread, the money problems are included to demonstrate that capitalism isn't easy and financial success isn't guaranteed. It is part of Philip's character arc. It is going to drive him to do the right thing...whatever that may be right now.

I considered that as well. I'm hoping that Kimmie tells her father about the phone call from "Jim" but I am skeptical.

 

The thing is, with only 5 shows left, there is not enough time to get very involved in all the crises facing Phillip and explore them all.

The show runner will probably only be able to present one or two of these crises as the ones that cause the "Big Bang" in the final episode.

Of course I am assuming this season will end with some kind of "Big Bang" and not a "Whimper" and I am usually wrong when I make those kinds of assumptions.

But I think it's a real neat trick. I mean the way the show runner is giving us 4 or 5 real crisis situations and then reserves the right to decide on which one(s) will force Phillip to take some desperate action. I expect it will be that action that causes some "Big Bang" to end the show. At least I hope there is a "Big Bang". That would be so much more exciting than a "Whimper".

I hope the show runner paid attention to how many people were so disappointed with the way the Agent Gaad situation played out. That really sucked for the audience. It still does.

I'm hoping they will have sufficient courage to pick one or two plot lines and take a stand one them and show us what they believe will be the outcome of the struggle between the Communist and Democratic ways of life.

Edited April 28, 2018 by MissBluxom

[AAEBoiler]

And now Elizabeth has racked up 8 kills in 5 episodes. Anyone have a guess how high the body count will end up in this 10-episode final season? I think double digits is a guarantee but can she make it to 20? Does getting Paige or Philip or Henry somehow killed by accident count for more than 1?

[qtpye]

Quote

I'm very impressed with your knowledge of this subject and I'm completely serious. You might want to consider writing a self-help book for teenage girls on "How to Seduce the Boy you Like".

LOL, I could not seduce a bear to come out of its cave using a five-pound steak. Elizabeth Jennings, on the other hand, is the queen of the honeytrap and nobody can resist her.

[tpplay]

On 4/25/2018 at 8:20 PM, Shriekingeel said:

Can we acknowledge Elizabeth as the monster she is yet? Abducting and torturing a child isn’t grrrrrrrl power, it’s a crime against humanity. The “she’s just a soldier fighting for her country” nonsense no longer applies when you’re committing atrocities. And that’s not counting the two horrific murders.  

 

Phillip sabotaging the kidnap plot is his finest hour. 

A BIG FAT "YES" to both of these statements.  I'm looking forward to the "heroine" of this show's demise.  Terrible mother.  Terrible wife.  Terrible person.

[CaliCheeseSucks]

6 hours ago, albaniantv said:

I don't want to focus unduly on this, but I think the ire towards and hatred of Holly Taylor and her portrayal of Paige  parallels the red-hot negativity towards Anna Gunn's presentation of Skylar White in Breaking Bad and Morgan Saylor's interpretation of Dana Brody in Homeland.

 

I honestly don't see any comparison between fan distaste for Paige Jennings and and that towards Skyler White.

Breaking Bad fanboys hated Skyler because she was an impediment to Walter's plans. It was a very specific misogyny directed at a woman who wasn't letting her 'man' live the life he wanted to live. Breaking Bad unfortunately had a segment of its fan base that thought Walter White was a 'good guy' - because he finally threw off the oppressive chains of his nagging wife. Fans who understood what an anti-hero was knew that no one was supposed to root for Walter (or the many other bad guys on the show, for that matter). 

Americans fans that hate Paige hate her because the showrunners have gone all over the place with her character, to the point where it's now practically parody. Nobody here that I've seen hates Paige because she's a problem for her parents doing their thing; we hate that the writers seem to think YA-ifying the show by centering it around Paige was a good idea that would lead to stimulating viewing. Especially in this, its final season. I doubt I would have invested my time had I known from the beginning that this was the endgame. 

I don't watch Homeland, so I can't speak to that.

[SusanSunflower]

All of the "Telling not Showing" about Paige's intelligence, maturity, natural aptitude for spying keeps being cut down by what we see.  Also, the Paige's story -- that she was being primed to work deep cover, possibly career CIA/FBI/etc. -- keeps being invoked with no evidence it is actually being pursued, and fair evidence that Paige is unlikely to suitable for the rigors of that career path (which IMHO would have been interesting to watch, as would Paige entering the military or law enforcement with a 10-15 year arc of steady career advancement planned).  

I wasn't interested in Paige but I was interested in the prospective path to deep infiltration likely to be fostered and abetted by the KGB (chosing her major, her courses, her professors, etc.) ... Similarly her path to advancement (and deep infiltration as planned by the KGB) of the FBI or miltary would have "redeemed" the story by making it (cough) interesting. 

At the moment, in her fieldwork, Paige is being treated as no more valuable than Han was .... nothing to be fostered, no great loss if compromised ....  it's mixed messages, particularly with the lackadaisical approach to her training and daily schedule.   Hard to make Dean's List if you're spending your nights on surveillance....   I expect her to get rousted by cops on prostitution abatement detail .... loitering with intent. 

Edited April 27, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[tpplay]

Random thoughts:

I couldn't agree more with the person who said upthread (in different words than mine) that the core of Paige's character is that she wants to do something meaningful in the world.  She's pretty young when she gets so involved with religion but for me it was pretty clear that she needed something to "belong" to.  Elizabeth has never been portrayed as being deeply connected to her children.  Paige noticed her mother's pre-occupation with something outside her family for a long long time.  So she switched horses.  The basis of her character is - I think - clear.  

Of course, that's different as her being written as a dumb but that's entirely on the writers.  And Paige isn't the only character being written as dumb.  At this point, so is Elizabeth.  (Oy.)  So is the entire FBI.  There's no one smart or even particularly complex here, except for Phillip and Oleg.

I've hoped for Elizabeth AND Phillip's demise for about 3 years.  He doesn't kill people anymore but he sure used to, and without remorse (at the time, I mean).  The idea that a person would have sex with another person so his wife would not be mad at him?  Really??  So, yay, he made the right decision - finally.

On another note, here's my confession.  I love Stan.

[Clanstarling]

On 4/26/2018 at 6:29 AM, RedHawk said:

An example, one scene that blew me away last night: In the phone booth call to end things with Kimmie, Phillip begins talking to her in the character of Jim, but by the end of the conversation, he is completely Phillip. The camera angle even changes so that we begin seeing him on one side, and then switch to the other. I need to watch it again, but it struck me that he even looked different by the end of the call.

ETA: Kudos to Matthew Rhys and the director.

First thing I said to the mister when the episode ended: "Matthew Rhys absolutely crushed it this episode."

On 4/26/2018 at 6:43 AM, jjj said:

Especially in contrast to the earliest season(s), when they were so attentive to things like a truck outdoors, or any disruption in the air outside their house.  Much more on edge then.  I miss the super secret coded phone calls.

I miss them turning on the faucet - though I suppose that was for the kids, and not for the possibility of listening devices.
 

On 4/26/2018 at 9:29 AM, teddysmom said:

I totally forgot. He was the hottest on West Wing. 

That is where I sat up and took notice. I don't remember him on Moonlighting, didn't particularly care for him on St. Elsewhere, but his storyline with CJ was everything - and I bought and still listen to Jeff Buckley's "Hallelujah" because of it (and get choked up every time.)

On 4/26/2018 at 9:37 AM, DoubleUTeeEff said:

I thought the scene with Claudia, Elizabeth and Paige was fine. Margo Martindale can do no wrong in my eyes, though.

Same here. Though it was strange to see her actually laughing on screen. I love her.

 

21 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Not all "American kids" are as stupid or self centered as Paige, so that does kind of bother me.  I think the writers may have had to "pivot" with Paige, when it became obvious the actress couldn't handle tougher scenes, and did much better as naive brat.

I don't know that I think that, even though I'm not a Paige fan. I think she serves as a strong contrast to her parents who are neither of those, and whose background makes them what they are. Paige may share some commonalities with her mother, but she grew up without any struggles - there was no crucible to forge her into a strong weapon. So the generational gap is more extreme than it is normally, as in how ironic that these two driven, dedicated, people have raised someone who can't measure up.

21 hours ago, GussieK said:

Keri Russell is great too.  Because we have begun to hate her character so much, we are overlooking her talent, I think, and the way she adopts so many personas.

After I made the aforementioned rave review of Matthew's acting - I followed up with pretty much the same thing.

18 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

I think Phillip was so grateful for E actually initiating sex (and his being able to avoid rejection) that his recognition that there was usually some "transaction involved" didn't spoil the enjoyment ...   Gregory helped make Elizabeth sexually responsive, but I think the first decade of that marriage was rather difficult sexually. 

My take was that Phillip didn't recognize it as a transaction until Elizabeth brought up Kimmie. There was just too much spring in his step in the morning, a lightness to him that seemed to be more about reconnecting than sex. Of course, I could think that because I didn't get it until Elizabeth brought up Kimmie, I was just so happy for Phillip's sake that Elizabeth seemed to be reaching out to him.

16 hours ago, hellmouse said:

I keep thinking about Hans going through training with Elizabeth. If he had ever spoken to her the way Paige does, she probably would have cut him loose from the program. He respected her and admired her but most of all he respected her.

Cut loose, or worse. I'm thinking you don't just fire someone who screws up. Or at least, Elizabeth wouldn't.

15 hours ago, Anela said:

Me, too. I liked her hitting that douche who grabbed her. I don't know if he was "negging" her, in the hopes of getting her to want their approval, or if he was just being an ass for the hell of it. Either way, he shouldn't have grabbed her. The other one didn't really deserve a punch, but he could have stood up for her, to his friend.

If she'd been any other normal college girl, I'd have liked it too.  #metoo.

But she's not, she's a spy in training (who thinks she's hot shit) who should be very clear about the need to keep a low profile, especially in a place where they know her name. She refuses to take any responsibility and/or direction. It's crazymaking.

18 minutes ago, tpplay said:

On another note, here's my confession.  I love Stan.

I do too. You're not alone.

[Dowel Jones]

7 hours ago, albaniantv said:

Of course, I want the whole family --Henry and Paige and Phillip and Elizabeth-- to survive, even though every episode makes me less certain that any of them will. 

 

1 hour ago, tpplay said:

I'm looking forward to the "heroine" of this show's demise.  Terrible mother.  Terrible wife.  Terrible person.

I agree, but in Philip and Elizabeth's case, it would be to survive in a maximum security prison for life in solitary confinement, a la Robert Hannsen.

[sistermagpie]

13 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Anyone else get the feeling that Phillip's warning won't really matter, and that Elizabeth (or someone, but probably Elizabeth) will still end up kidnapping Kimmie in Greece and that things will end very badly?

 

In this case, I don't think so only because it seems like the pattern here is that Elizabeth's simply not able to do anything she's trying to do. This was plan C or D and now it's a failure too because Philip won't obey her. We don't necessarily need to see it fail on a larger scale, especially since realistically if they kidnapped Kimmy it should cause an international incident. We know that Elizabeth *would* have done it and probably not thought twice about it and that's all we need to know. I could be wrong, of course.

12 hours ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

Going off my memory of money-related discussions from prior episodes, I think that's another plot hole as the money problems aren't consistent in the family. G.W. is not a cheap school, either.

It's almost like the characters themselves understand the symbolism. Paige and Elizabeth are only living spy life so Paige has an apartment, tuition, spending money, no scholarship to speak of and money is no object. Henry and Philip are in the mundane world where even with a scholarship it's too much of a splurge.  Are college funds at play here? Does Henry have one too? Doesn't really matter. The important thing is just that Henry is a kid who understands money can run out. Paige lives in a world purely created by her mother and Claudia. Philip and Henry care about the family as a family. Paige and Elizabeth care about the "family" of the Centre. Which isn't a family at all. (Paige last season realized that Gabriel *was* like their family, but the real reason that's true is that Gabriel cared about them enough to quit.)

8 hours ago, albaniantv said:

commenter on this site recently expressed the wish that Phillip had knocked his daughter unconscious to show Paige she was overestimating her combat readiness.

Pretty sure that was me and I did not say that I wanted Philip to knock her unconscious. I said I'd hoped he'd leave her unconscious (meaning simply hold her for a few seconds longer) rather than just staggering because I liked the symbolism of it. Paige would not have been any more hurt in this scenario than she was.

I don't watch Homeland, I watched Breaking Bad. So I have no opinion on Dana but I loved Skylar. In all previous seasons I've always respected Paige as a character even while I was often impatient with her scenes. I saw what they were doing with her and what was going on with her and how it was important.

This season, while I certainly wouldn't say there couldn't be any sexism at play in Paige's case since that's a thing that's always there, the character just has so many obvious things about her that would get a negative reaction I'm not really worried that me finding her tiresome is down to internalized misogyny. It seems frankly odd to me that they wrote this character and didn't expect people to have negative reactions to her. 

In fact, it seems like they expected her to inspire cheers for the very things that turn people off. Maybe they thought she would be some sort of wish-fulfillment character because she's a junior spy? They've written a character who's an arrogant, fair weather teenage traitor who's always the center of kind attention and gets lots of screentime that could go to other characters and isn't being used to put a sympathetic spin on these flaws. Plus the actress is mediocre. 

It's kind of funny, actually, because it almost makes it seem like they assumed that what people liked about the spying stuff was the wigs and the hand to hand combat. 

5 hours ago, Erin9 said:

The more I think about it, the more I think Paige not being afraid anymore at the close of last season has led to a lot of these attitudes. She went from the extreme of sleeping in her closet to thinking she can handle anything. Not so much. But she thinks so. Though maybe Philip giving her a real world taste of sparring penetrated a little bit. 

I feel like this is really central too--it goes along with Elizabeth. She was chosen because she's driven by fear, fear of surrendering to the enemy. She "doesn't have to be afraid" as long as she can tell herself she's saving the world as part of this big movement. Paige from the first expressed insecurity about life that she only really loses when she's got a cause backing her up. Now she's all about being strong according to the Gospel of Elizabeth.

In fact, that's what Philip came over to talk to her about. When he recounted the story of killing the bullies in EST he said it made him feel "strong." He understands how it can feel good to feel like you can kick ass. Paige denied that this was *exactly* what she's getting off on, claiming that she didn't feel anything. When Philip overpowered her, he didn't feel strong. He's gotten over feeling strong that way.

Elizabeth, otoh, keeps doubling down on this. Now she's even afraid of the USSR of the present day, really.

5 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Paige sounds adolescent. Well she’s about 21, I guess.

I think she ought to be turning 19 soon or has just turned 19. 

5 hours ago, AllyB said:

We saw lots of Henry enjoying geeky subculture with his Start Trek and Star Wars fandom maybe we could have seen a little of that from Paige. Show her enjoying Wonder Woman reruns, reading comic books, later glorifying Julie Parish in V. In fact having her reading the X-men through the show's early years would have been a neat plot addition as she'd probably have identified with the newly introduced 13year old Kitty Pryde

Though I think this is actually a bit in conflict with Paige's character as we've seen her. She's a bit like Elizabeth in that she doesn't get into this fictional stuff. She'll read or watch TV, but it would almost be too self-aware for her (or self-aware in a different way) for her be a fan of superheroes. Just because it seems like as a fan she'd understand that she wanted to be a superhero, you know? But I think she actually takes herself way more seriously. 

4 hours ago, whiporee said:

I'd disagree with that. Every time we've seen Elizabeth initiate sex with Phillip, it's been to control him. The one that's sticking in my head right now is at the motel in Kansas (?) when he was asking why they couldn't grow their own wheat, and Elizabeth quickly went into sexy cowgirl mode. 

 

Totally disagree. What she's doing here is exactly the opposite of what she's done in the past. In the hotel room and elsewhere she saw her husband was upset, tried to talk him out of it with her own opinions of why there was nothing to be upset about, and when that didn't work she just cheered him up with sex. That's completely honest and affectionate despite the fact that Philip was questioning the Cause and she distracted him from that. There's even a whole moment where they're looking at each other and you see him agree to go along with it. They love each other despite their differences. She doesn't have to encourage his doubts to not be controlling him.

Here she's being either partly or totally dishonest.  All season she's acted like his problems aren't worth comforting because only spy stuff matters. She used memories of WWII to create a connection between them (job related, past-focused, emphasizing them as Russians) and then used that to get him to do something. 

Philip's reaction also show that he knows the difference between the two. In Kansas he appreciates her cheering him up and they continue to be happy with each other. In this ep the sex leads ultimately in the opposite direction. His manner especially after coming back from Michigan is cold and removed. There's no suggestion that he expects or wants sex on his return. He understands now, as Martha would say.

 

1 hour ago, SusanSunflower said:

All of the "Telling not Showing" about Paige's intelligence, maturity, natural aptitude for spying which has been cut down by what we see.  Also, the Paige's story -- that she was being primed to work deep cover, possibly career CIA/FBI/etc. -- keeps being invoked with no evidence it is actually being pursued, and fair evidence that Paige is unlikely to suitable for the rigors of that career path (which IMHO would have been interesting to watch, as would Paige entering the military or law enforcement with a 10-15 year arc of steady career advancement planned).  

 

This is another thing that makes me unsure where they're going. Because that situation is so fraught with danger it feels like it should be more suspenseful than it is. Even with Elizabeth telling people who haven't asked that Paige is really good at this stuff without any scenes of Paige being good at it, even with Elizabeth finally suggesting the idea that she might not be cut out for it, even with Paige making really major mistakes and Elizabeth brushing them off...I'm still not sure it's more about a coming of age story. 

Which it might be--maybe they're going to caught due to one of the many other dangers and the point with Paige isn't that Elizabeth needs to recognize she's a menace as a spy but that she's given her terrible coping mechanisms and values.

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

My take was that Phillip didn't recognize it as a transaction until Elizabeth brought up Kimmie. There was just too much spring in his step in the morning, a lightness to him that seemed to be more about reconnecting than sex. Of course, I could think that because I didn't get it until Elizabeth brought up Kimmie, I was just so happy for Phillip's sake that Elizabeth seemed to be reaching out to him.

I agree. She came onto him using WWII. He had every reason to think she was just feeling affectionate because of that and wanted to be close to him. The next morning he's clearly very happy and even said he slept well. All about the re-connection, I agree. Then she brought up Kimmy and although he didn't openly react to it, he immediately started to connect the two. The fact that he hides his reaction also shows that he sees she can't be trusted. That's how Philip and I think even Henry reacts to being hurt. By the time he comes back from Kimmy's he's distant and cold.

That might be an important turning point where Philip where Elizabeth has to do something to apologize rather than just accept the affection Philip wants to give.

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

Cut loose, or worse. I'm thinking you don't just fire someone who screws up. Or at least, Elizabeth wouldn't.

Actually she did do that! She fired him, that is.

Edited April 27, 2018 by sistermagpie

[crgirl412]

12 hours ago, jjj said:

Too soon...☹️

Sorry, JJJ.   RIP Gaad. 

[SusanSunflower]

A few years ago, the Jennings were "in love" in a way they had never been before (despite more than a decade of marriage) ... maybe it was the freedom and feeling of success that comes with having "good kids" turn into "good teenagers", I don't know.  With this 3 year hiatus, I have no idea how long it's been since Elizabeth initiated "sexytime" (or if Phillip has been consistently rejected on the basis of her being too tired) .... I'm guessing months, except maybe for a few early morning rolls-in-the-hay ...  Elizabeth has arguably (and not abnormally) used sex with Phillip as a reward, as a "mood stabilizer", a let's change the subject .... My impression of the marriage has always been that Phillip defers to Elizabeth because she is deeply competitive and must "win" ... to attempt to "change her mind" or disagree in normal nagging fashion is to be punished and still lose.  He has to carefully pick his moment and his argument ... as we've seen he has largely "stayed out" of Paige's training/etc.  but the "I'm not like you Dad"  (said derisively) must have stung, because he knows she absorbed that attitude from E.  Times to re-assert some "dad" in this family. 

So, how's that working out for him so far?  Next episode may well be a barnburner.  Kimmie-kidnapping summit destroying diversion seems like a lot of effort leaving the possibility of lot of fingerprints/trackbacks, particularly if Kimmie told any of her friend's about even the "finally had sex with my boyfriend who flew in on business" recent history ...  (it also likely would have no effect on Gorbachev's decision about dead-hand ... fwiw)

The writers/this show big-budget might happen .... seems diversionary somehow

Edited April 27, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Helena Dax]

I'm proud of Philip, he did the right thing with Kimmie and with Paige, who really, really, deserved that chokehold. I couldn't believe it when she started to talk to Philip like that. The nerve!

We don't really know if someone's investigating all the dead bodies Elizabeth is leaving behind. Maybe they are, but it's not important in the sense that if someone's going to catch Philip and Elizabeth, it's going to be Stan or his friend (Anderholt?). 

It's funny that the biggest mistery left is what's the deal with Renee. If she's a spy, she's about to set a foot in the FBI. If she isn't, I guess she'll have something to do with P and E's downfall. And there's also some irony in the fact that the loyal Elizabeth is going to end up as a traitor to her own country because of said blind loyalty. 

Edited April 27, 2018 by Helena Dax
grammar

[ChromaKelly]

Instead of Claudia, Elizabeth, and Paige all telling first-time sex stories, I would have rather had Philip and Paige doing shots playing "Never Have I Ever: Russian Spy Edition" and had Paige learn what's really involved. Never have I ever... stuffed a body into a suitcase. Never have I ever... been forced to have sex with a fat old man. Never have I ever...had to completely break someone's heart and get to leave the country for their own safety. Oh but "I'm not like you and mom" Yes Paige, I've walked down the hall taking pictures before. Drink.
 

[MisterBluxom]

I just watched the episode again and was struck by the the actress who played the lady murdered by Elizabeth.

She gave a fantastic example of excellence in acting. If you watch her face at the moment of death, it was just some of the finest acting I've ever seen. I hope she gets more work. She was great in that scene.

Edited April 28, 2018 by MissBluxom

[teddysmom]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

That is where I sat up and took notice. I don't remember him on Moonlighting, didn't particularly care for him on St. Elsewhere, but his storyline with CJ was everything - and I bought and still listen to Jeff Buckley's "Hallelujah" because of it (and get choked up every time.)

Do you listen to The West Wing Weekly, the podcast with Josh Malina and Hrishi Hriway . They talked to Mark about "that" episode. The scenes at the theater were shot in NYC around 4 am.  He was effusive in his praise of Allison, of course. 

46 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

It's funny that the biggest mistery left is what's the deal with Renee. If she's a spy, she's about to set a foot in the FBI. If she isn't, I guess she'll have something to do with P and E downfall.

Coworker and I think something is definitely up with her. If not, why feature the character so much.  Why have Stan marry just to have a wife. Every  major or featured character should have some impact on the events, even if it's revealed in the last episodes. 

[anonymiss]

1 hour ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

I honestly don't see any comparison between fan distaste for Paige Jennings and and that towards Skyler White.

Breaking Bad fanboys hated Skyler because she was an impediment to Walter's plans. It was a very specific misogyny directed at a woman who wasn't letting her 'man' live the life he wanted to live. Breaking Bad unfortunately had a segment of its fan base that thought Walter White was a 'good guy' - because he finally threw off the oppressive chains of his nagging wife. Fans who understood what an anti-hero was knew that no one was supposed to root for Walter (or the many other bad guys on the show, for that matter). 

I loved Skylar and the actress was excellent. Although, isn't an antihero just one who doesn't have the conventional "good guy" traits but, in spite of this, you may find yourself rooting for them? I've not known it to mean you aren't "supposed" to root for them. I usually am drawn to them (Dexter, the Jennings, Walter White) as they interestingly muddle the black and white binary of right and wrong, making matters more grey.

[Umbelina]

6 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

I don't think I've seen anyone hate Holly Taylor.  The worst I've seen is saying she's not a very good actress.  Paige, on the other hand, I'll give you.  

Exactly.  Also, the writing is all over the place.  As someone who does like to listen to podcasts and read interviews there is SUCH a complete disconnect from what we are seeing on screen and what they SAY off screen, and frankly on screen as well.  No, Paige isn't "brilliant" or "smart" or "capable" and really?  When has she ever been any of those things?  Henry had to save her stupid butt after the hitchhiking!  She did well in school, which we all know means basically nothing other than she can memorize and take tests well.

The problems are with the writing AND the acting though.  She, until this year, had about 3 voice inflections and 3 expressions.  That really stands out when up against a cast of this caliber.  It's like watching a pro football team decide to let the champion hopscotch player from 5th grade play defensive tackle.  It SHOWS, it takes me out of the story, and makes me wonder more about what in the hell the showrunners are doing that what will happen with Paige.

I'm LOVING the writing this season for Paige, and she does "petulant spoiled brat trolling for one night stands while oblivious to her situation, oblivious to suffering, history, and most certainly, WILLINGLY oblivious to what the KGB is, what the USSR is, and what her actions mean to the USA" REALLY well!  THIS is a Paige I could have watched happily from the beginning.

Instead we got endless, and inexplicably still alive, Pastor Tim. 

OMG.

2 hours ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

I honestly don't see any comparison between fan distaste for Paige Jennings and and that towards Skyler White.

Breaking Bad fanboys hated Skyler because she was an impediment to Walter's plans. It was a very specific misogyny directed at a woman who wasn't letting her 'man' live the life he wanted to live. Breaking Bad unfortunately had a segment of its fan base that thought Walter White was a 'good guy' - because he finally threw off the oppressive chains of his nagging wife. Fans who understood what an anti-hero was knew that no one was supposed to root for Walter (or the many other bad guys on the show, for that matter). 

Americans fans that hate Paige hate her because the showrunners have gone all over the place with her character, to the point where it's now practically parody. Nobody here that I've seen hates Paige because she's a problem for her parents doing their thing; we hate that the writers seem to think YA-ifying the show by centering it around Paige was a good idea that would lead to stimulating viewing. Especially in this, its final season. I doubt I would have invested my time had I known from the beginning that this was the endgame. 

I don't watch Homeland, so I can't speak to that.

I agree, and well said!

While I do recognize that there is an issue with misogyny?  I also resent being lumped into a group I don't belong in, and the assumption that anyone that has been completely annoyed by Paige for years now is "one of them."

I adored Skylar White, the actress was believable and compelling, and her story was perfectly written.  I think BB was one of the best shows ever on TV, and she was a huge part of the reason for that.

I liked Dana Brady as well, her role was (again) believable, and very well acted.  What I later disliked about her on Homeland was honestly, the entire Brody family.  They were well written and acted as well, but it just went on too long.  ALL of them were wonderful, but seriously?  He should have been dead much sooner, and while I loved the fall out from his heroin and hero days, and get why they wanted to keep such talented actors on screen?  It was close to "jump the shark" time.  Once they were all gone, the show bounced back in a huge way.

Paige's story has not been compelling.  I was annoyed by the Pastors at least 75% of the time.  She's not well written (although I'm enjoying her this year) and the actress is extremely limited, and probably belongs in sit coms or romcoms where she might be wonderful.  As oblivious spoiled brat, she's shining.

 

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

I don't know that I think that, even though I'm not a Paige fan. I think she serves as a strong contrast to her parents who are neither of those, and whose background makes them what they are. Paige may share some commonalities with her mother, but she grew up without any struggles - there was no crucible to forge her into a strong weapon. So the generational gap is more extreme than it is normally, as in how ironic that these two driven, dedicated, people have raised someone who can't measure up.

----

My take was that Phillip didn't recognize it as a transaction until Elizabeth brought up Kimmie. There was just too much spring in his step in the morning, a lightness to him that seemed to be more about reconnecting than sex. Of course, I could think that because I didn't get it until Elizabeth brought up Kimmie, I was just so happy for Phillip's sake that Elizabeth seemed to be reaching out to him.

 

THIS season I agree, Paige is being shown as a contrast to her parents.  The American vs the Soviets.   But honestly, to me?  It's WAY over the top.  By that, I only mean that there is no motivation for her to work with Soviets to destroy her own country other than the fact that she's a cult junky and a joiner.  She would have been a perfect Manson Family member, and undoubtedly happily followed Jim Jones to the jungle.   She's a self centered idiot, and the difference is, they are finally SHOWING us that, which I appreciate, but it negates all the "Paige is so thoughtful and smart and honest and she CARES about the world" shit we've had forced down our throats for 5 seasons now. 

She cares about nothing other than herself.  She's blithely working to take down her own country without doing any serious research about the country she's now supporting.  It's as if the writers suddenly said "UNCLE!" and are now writing to the actress's strengths, being oblivious, childish, and frankly, it's more than a bit insulting to have the privileged American without a clue trope shoved in at the last second here.  She'll read books about sex being used by spies, but not about conditions in the USSR?  She's not considered the ramifications, let alone implications of TREASON?

Come on now.  That's quite a leap.  Especially since for the rest of the entire show they've been telling us, not showing us, but telling us how brilliant and caring Paige is.  She's not Jared.  Jared was a young teenage boy who was expertly honey trapped and believed himself to be in love, off on an exciting adventure with his future wife.

Anyway...

ETA forgot the Philip part!

I agree, Philip didn't know that Elizabeth was using sex on him until later, and that was so brilliantly and subtlety acted!  Rhys is a force, this was wonderful writing for him, and amazing acting by him from the start to the finish of the episode.  He was so happy the morning after...and then reality hit.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Umbelina

[Sarah 103]

14 hours ago, alvajon said:

Maybe I missed it, but who is paying for Paige’s college, when P&E can’t afford now to keep Henry in school? I don’t remember any mention of scholarships, etc. 

My guess is that they had some type of savings plan, even if it was only part of thier cover, for the kids' college education. Henry's private school education was unexpected and expensive. 

6 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

For me it is a writing issue, not an actress issue. 

Agreed. An actress/actor can only do so much with that they are given. If they are given bad matieral to work with, that is totally not their fault. 

6 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

I'm totally mystified why the show has seemed to spend so much time focused on her and so little on Henry. It's as if someone decided that Paige was far more important than Henry and they would just focus on her at Henry's expense. I've never understood that. Something just seems rotten about that.

Agreed. I wished they had spent more time with Henry and playing up the massive differences/contrasts between the characters. It seemed like that's what the writers were setting up and then totally dropped the ball. 

2 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

I was interested in the prospective path to deep infiltration likely to be fostered and abetted by the KGB (chosing her major, her courses, her professors, etc.) ... Similarly her path to advancement (and deep infiltration as planned by the KGB) of the FBI or miltary would have "redeemed" the story by making it (cough) interesting. 

 Hard to make Dean's List if you're spending your nights on surveillance

Yes! They should have made her training somehow connect to her life at college. Instead of having her do spy missions with Elizabeth, make her work on her observational/listening/other skills while at the university, like how many people in X room are wearing red shirts or something like that. 

[Inquisitionist]

Quote

Maybe I missed it, but who is paying for Paige’s college, when P&E can’t afford now to keep Henry in school? I don’t remember any mention of scholarships, etc. 

It could be as simple as the USSR is paying for Paige's college (perhaps through a scholarship that only she could apply for) because she, in essence, now works for them, but the USSR does not pay for Henry's private high school because it's not necessary to further their aims -- the deal was that Philip would pay for this out of his "becoming a capitalist."  I don't really need to have the show spell this out for me.  The point seems to be:  Elizabeth/Paige (USSR/purported socialists) are not worried about money, but Philip/Henry (USA/capitalists) are.  That is kind of mind-blowing in itself.

[sistermagpie]

10 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Come on now.  That's quite a leap.  Especially since for the rest of the entire show they've been telling us, no showing us, but telling us how brilliant and caring Paige is.  She's not Jared.  Jared was a young teenage boy who was expertly honey trapped and believed himself to be in love, off on an exciting adventure with his future wife.

 

I also liked the implication with Jared of how dangerous it was to tell him the secret behind his parents' back. It completely took away his identity and then sent him home to watch his parents lying to him. It would have been horrifying and make him feel like they hated him and were the enemy. All the more reason to latch onto the romantic fantasy. It would have probably been compelling to watch, but we didn't need to see it to understand the psychology.

But Jared was also a clear tragedy, a smart boy (going to Carnegie Mellon with engineering skills) who we knew just from little hints was often in conflict with his father (in normal teenage boy ways) who was given a psychic blow and then used and had no allies to help him through it because of what the KGB did. I totally believe what they did could produce such a volatile reaction. (That's of course leaving aside plot issues like not telling the actor playing Jared that he was the murderer when he played his reaction to the murders for instance.)

Paige could be an equally tragic situation in a different way. Jared tried to be his parents, but better. In Paige's version it's a bit like instead of her rising to the premise of being a spy she's reduced spying to her level. It's actually made her seem more selfish and self-absorbed. She just started sucking up to the new power. 

It doesn't help that the same season we've got the Oleg/Philip plot that's practically there to show what it *really* looks like to want to do something good in the world. In contrast to Paige or Elizabeth, they're unsure that their actions will turn out well, they don't want to be putting themselves or their families in danger. I don't mean they're saints, but they both did walk away from this and came back for a reason.

43 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

Yes! They should have made her training somehow connect to her life at college. Instead of having her do spy missions with Elizabeth, make her work on her observational/listening/other skills while at the university, like how many people in X room are wearing red shirts or something like that. 

But then, that's obviously not at all what the show thinks or wants Paige's training to be about. If she was just testing these kinds of skills we wouldn't be seeing her embracing ignorance about murder, associating sex with stealing things from people or dealing with conflict by punching it. But they clearly want to show her on the job and focusing on sexy stuff rather than the mundane stuff. And stuff that they can use to talk about life issues (for example, sex=honeypotting). Even her study of Russian culture and history comes down to telling her the USSR is the toughest and the best and then devolves into Claudia and Elizabeth telling personal stories. Paige has nothing close to the sophisticated understanding of Soviet history/politics/culture that a student of that subject at university would have. (Those kids being the ones the CIA would approach for a job.) 

That maybe goes along also with what they're saying about the characters too. As written now Paige is far too impatient to diligently work on skills like that (getting the soldier's name wrong is an example of her flunking that test even when it really mattered) in school. She ignores orders, especially orders about not doing something more important and is even coming up with her own independent missions that she expects the KGB to approve.

And Elizabeth allows it because she seems to want her out there too for whatever reason. Her own ego? Loneliness without Philip? Liking the bonding? Whatever it is, if one was really looking for words to sum up Paige's whole training they would be words like sloppy, impatient, lack of attention to detail. The one word that wouldn't come to mind is probably the one that guided the training of Philip and Elizabeth: Excellence. 

I said this before, but it's such a perfect contrast: Philip and Elizabeth throw out stew because it was made from a Russian recipe. Paige puts on a James Bond show in a bar where people know her and just says she won't go to that bar again. And she rolls her eyes and says "Duh!" while doing it.

A good thing about that is that it's not in conflict with what the show's doing. They want to throw Paige into spy stories in a sloppy way because they think it's more fun for her to be wearing big glasses and punching people. So it works if Elizabeth is doing the same thing. It's amateur hour all around.

I do wonder how the Philip/Paige stuff might come into play. Paige is obviously mirroring her mother's disrespect for her father. She's being almost comically condescending, lecturing the guy and practically telling him that whatever he's been doing for the past 22 years, it's not the important, difficult work that Paige and her mother do. It seems like Elizabeth, at least, has to eventually realize that she's taken for granted the person she should have valued most, but will Paige have a similar realization? 

[Kathemy]

Wow.

Responding to this without having read any other comments.

This may have been the best episode I watched since Nina got killed.

On 4/26/2018 at 4:08 AM, crgirl412 said:

27 million Russians lost in WW II????  Fact check time!! 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties_of_the_Soviet_Union

Fact checked.

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, Kathemy said:

Wow.

Responding to this without having read any other comments.

This may have been the best episode I watched since Nina got killed.

Many of the reviewers agree with you, and interestingly enough?  In some cases for very different, but equally valid reasons.

@sistermagpie Yes, well said.

Also, with Jared we had the powerful motivator of probably outstanding spy sex.  He may not have been a virgin, although I tend to think he was, given that he was a nerd and not a jock or very handsome, either way though, his handler was trained the same way Philip and Elizabeth were trained.  He was in (ahem) expert hands (and other fascinating areas) and that?  Changes everything.  She also obviously played on the "man" thing, and the parent's lying to him and treating him like a child.  

Kid didn't stand a chance.

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, teddysmom said:

Do you listen to The West Wing Weekly, the podcast with Josh Malina and Hrishi Hriway . They talked to Mark about "that" episode. The scenes at the theater were shot in NYC around 4 am.  He was effusive in his praise of Allison, of course.

I haven't. I don't tend to listen to, or read, extra stuff about shows. But I'll look for it, if it's still available.

[Sarah 103]

43 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

It could be as simple as the USSR is paying for Paige's college (perhaps through a scholarship that only she could apply for) because she, in essence, now works for them, but the USSR does not pay for Henry's private high school because it's not necessary to further their aims -- the deal was that Philip would pay for this out of his "becoming a capitalist."  I don't really need to have the show spell this out for me.  The point seems to be:  Elizabeth/Paige (USSR/purported socialists) are not worried about money, but Philip/Henry (USA/capitalists) are.  That is kind of mind-blowing in itself.

That doesn't make sense because I thought the Centre was going to recuit both children eventually. They were starting with Paige because she was older and then were going to get around to Henry. Henry with his connections from the private school would be a fantastic target. Even if The Centre decided to pass on Henry for whatever reason, they should still want him at that school because Philip can chat up the other parents during hocky games, parents' weekend, and other events that parents go to. Even if it isn't part of a specific on-going operation, I would assume that Philip would be able to get bits and peices of information that the Centre would find incredibly useful. 

[sistermagpie]

7 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Also, with Jared we had the powerful motivator of probably outstanding spy sex.  He may not have been a virgin, although I tend to think he was, given that he was a nerd and not a jock or very handsome, either way though, his handler was trained the same way Philip and Elizabeth were trained.  He was in (ahem) expert hands (and other fascinating areas) and that?  Changes everything.  She also obviously played on the "man" thing, and the parent's lying to him and treating him like a child.  

 

That makes me also think about that feminist streak they've given Paige this season. It stands out to me because I feel like she's always had issues with her father's parenting style, the way she seems to value his love less because it's unconditional and never gets anything from his advice because she wants people to give her answers like her Mom and Pastor Tim and Philip's always instead telling her to think things through for herself. 

I used to think one thing that she liked about the Tims was that their marriage was more traditional. Pastor Tim did the talking and Alice supported him and only sometimes spoke up to support him. Paige herself even later says that with women Alice was more talkative--iow, she knew not to speak in the male space the way she did with women. I used to think maybe she liked that model of marriage because she saw her mother as too dominant at home. Her mother was her antagonist and didn't think her father was as strong an ally as Pastor Tim, for instance.

Now she's hanging out with Elizabeth and Claudia. Claudia in S1 was all about not trusting men and women having to be independent and Russian women being stronger than American ones. She tried to get rid of Philip because the marriage was a weakness. Elizabeth started this season with a moment where she was shown treating Philip as if she's following a Mad Men script about executives being dismissive of their wives for being domestic ("I know you love to talk...").

Paige is interested in honeytrapping it seems in large part because this is an area where she now gets power. She's still a magnet for men, but she's not interested in any of them as people herself. The intern is "cute" and but all we know about him is how she can use him or be powerful by stealing info from him or letting him impress her by giving her intel. She let the guy in the bar (also "cute") buy her drinks and when his friend harassed her she punched him out and then the guy too just for being another guy who's friends with him. She's angry at her mother for not wanting her to honeypot the intern. She didn't like that the woman in Moscow Does Not Believe in Tears gets "put in her place" by being in a relationship with a flawed man who is sometimes sexist, but she likes her wearing a suit and running a factory. She compares that to Elizabeth as if Elizabeth, too, has always been working alone and acts as if her father probably hasn't been really doing anything to help her all this time. 

Talking about sex with Elizabeth and Claudia they're talking about just that, sex, rather than any particular person or relationship. Elizabeth, who first talked about her relationship with Gregory in emotional terms, now talks about a boy with no name who she for some reason wanted to lose her virginity to and the point of the story is to laugh at him. In the same episode Elizabeth decides to use her husband, having sex with him to make him do what she wants.

But that case is really a rebuke to all of this because in all the other stories the male is a faceless person and it's just about sex. Philip, otoh, is an actual person and a relationship. He recognizes, after the fact, what Elizabeth was doing and ultimately it gets her the extreme opposite result. I don't think Philip blew up the Kimmy thing because of the honeypot, but I don't think it was just about Stan's story about Ilya either. That is, I think in that moment Philip was seeing the whole picture. Elizabeth doesn't care what happens to these children, wouldn't actually care what happened to Kimmy. The fact that she betrayed their marriage to get him to do it, I think, plays into that too. I think that makes him less able to put a softer spin on things or trust her. Nobody and nothing matters to her now. She's not really treating anyone as anything but an obstacle to be manipulated or erased. 

9 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

There is no way that Paige won't find that out.  The problem with Elizabeth is that she hasn't shown her daughter everything that they (Elizabeth and Philip) have done.  Why?  Because her daughter would have no part of it.  Paige is gullible, not brainwashed.

Honestly, I'm not sure she would care. I don't mean that as just an insult of Paige. It just seems like she's very open to whatever her new authority tells her is necessary and good. If Elizabeth fully believes this stuff I think Paige can too.

6 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

That doesn't make sense because I thought the Centre was going to recuit both children eventually.

Also I doubt the Centre wants to be footing the bill for anybody's tuition so I don't think we're supposed to think they're paying for Paige. I do think Inquisitionist's larger point is correct that it's just that Paige and Elizabeth don't think about money but Henry and Philip do. 

[Umbelina]

55 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

There is no way that Paige won't find that out.  The problem with Elizabeth is that she hasn't shown her daughter everything that they (Elizabeth and Philip) have done.  Why?  Because her daughter would have no part of it.  Paige is gullible, not brainwashed.

You say "gullible" and I say "willfully ignorant."

There are PLENTY of books out there to tell her, or as her former hero/leader Pastor Tim once said "I know what spies do."

It was not exactly a secret, there were plenty of books, and other available information about spies around, and long before the eighties.  Ha, even though The Charm School didn't come out until April 1, 1988.  I knew "what spies do" because I was a spy novel junkie, ESPECIALLY books written by former spies.

Elizabeth hasn't shown her daughter anything.  Well, how to spar with pads on, and wrist supports, oh, and how to use disguises.  She's TRIED to show her how to do surveillance, but obviously that is a huge FAIL as well, since she can't even get the name right on a name tag of someone she was with for quite a while.  She's TRIED to show her how to follow orders, and be inconspicuous, but that's a FAIL as well.  Paige hasn't mastered that after over 3 years of training.

I guess she can put on hats, glasses, and take photos from her purse.  Woo Hoo!

Edited April 27, 2018 by Umbelina

[PamelaMaeSnap]

On 4/26/2018 at 10:11 AM, calpurnia99 said:

No one used the term "wingman" in the 80's in this way, to mean a friend helping you to land a member of the opposite sex. 

Hubby called this out immediately as well!

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, PamelaMaeSnap said:

Hubby called this out immediately as well!

Honestly, I think they did.  It was from Top Gun, which came out in 1986.  I agree it became MUCH more popular and common later, maybe SNL did a skit or something...I can't remember.  However, a friend did ask me to be her "wingman" one evening in the late eighties, after a particularly infuriating breakup.  I specifically remember that, because for a moment I puzzled at the word, then remembered Top Gun, and laughed.

I was an excellent "wingman" for her that night, if I do say so myself.