Josiah and Lauren: He Has To Marry Somebody

[Sew Sumi]

She announced the pregnancy on Mechelle's birthday, 9/13. In the talk show interview, Lauren said she miscarried shortly after. So, I think that she miscarried sometime in late September. They were very cagey about when it happened and how far along she was, other than "first trimester."

[Saylii]

Hmm, they said in one of the magazine articles it was October.  Guess it was early October then.  Or they peed on the stick at Michelle’s birthday.  I could see that being a fun party trick in that family.

Edited February 13, 2019 by Saylii

[Sew Sumi]

If that's the case, then Lauren had that Mamma in the Making tee shirt stashed away waiting for its time. Frankly, that wouldn't surprise me, given her entire identity from here on out is tied to her fertility.

[louannems]

48 minutes ago, Saylii said:

I don’t think it was a wedding night baby at least.  The picture of the two of them at the pro-life banquet was posted to IG 10/25 and everyone thought she looked pregnant there.  I also can’t see Lauren showing up fresh to a pro-life event days after a miscarriage.  I’m thinking it happened that last week in October, especially since they basically went dark until Christmas.  Based on her comments, she was probably about 6-7 weeks pregnant.

Lauren said when she miscarried, she saw her baby in the toilet.  At 6 weeks, wouldn't she have just seen mentrual blood in the toilet?  And do even Christians believe that these very early miscarriages go to heaven?

[Sew Sumi]

Josiah said both in the TV interview and the IG post that they hoped to "see their baby in heaven someday."

[cmr2014]

51 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

If that's the case, then Lauren had that Mamma in the Making tee shirt stashed away waiting for its time. Frankly, that wouldn't surprise me, given her entire identity from here on out is tied to her fertility.

I'm sure it was a wedding gift from a Duggar,

[cmr2014]

27 minutes ago, louannems said:

Lauren said when she miscarried, she saw her baby in the toilet.  At 6 weeks, wouldn't she have just seen mentrual blood in the toilet?  And do even Christians believe that these very early miscarriages go to heaven?

Of course she would have. I just double checked and an embryo is the size of a sweet pea at 6 weeks. I think she "believed" that she did, but I doubt that she actually did.

[JoanArc]

Based on that thumbnail, and the two minutes I watched before getting irrationally pissed, Josiah is looking more and more like Josh 2.0. Josh-siah?

Quote

Lauren said when she miscarried, she saw her baby in the toilet.  At 6 weeks, wouldn't she have just seen mentrual blood in the toilet?  

Using Jinger metrics - the size of a sweet pea - she could have, maybe, thought she saw something. Wishful thinking, most likely. I suppose she could've one-upped Jessa and had 'twins'.

Quote

Josiah said both in the TV interview and the IG post that they hoped to "see their baby in heaven someday."

And talk about/do what? "Hey, remember that time I gave you mild nausea? Didn't I have a nice tail?

[Churchhoney]

5 minutes ago, JoanArc said:

And talk about/do what? "Hey, remember that time I gave you mild nausea? Didn't I have a nice tail?

Well, that's about as substantive a conversation as Duggars ever have, I'd imagine .... So, yeah....And of course they'd all tell each other how much they admire the way they love the Lord....That line of talk'ld take up a millennium or so. 

Edited February 13, 2019 by Churchhoney

[JoanArc]

23 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Well, that's about as substantive a conversation as Duggars ever have, I'd imagine .... So, yeah....And of course they'd all tell each other how much they admire the way they love the Lord....That line of talk'ld take up a millennium or so. 

I'm sorry, it's just their idea of heaven is so ridiculous. Go out play soccer with Moses for the next three billion eons, kids, then we'll get on the heavenly microphones an trade stilted cliches through a few heat deaths of universes...

(If anyone wants to be deliciously tortured - read the later Left Behind books that are set on post-Jesus return earth, and Heaven. Everyone is incapable of feeling any emotion but joy. Bible heroes visit people and robotically speak. Animals gratefully like up to be slaughtered for food. It's really an ironic hell. The Duggar house is pretty much that version of heaven-on-earth.)

Edit: Oh, and something that bothered me - why no funeral? No ammo can? No big production? It was a person, right?

Edited February 13, 2019 by JoanArc

[Lukeysboat]

18 hours ago, lookeyloo said:

Didn’t Michelle say when there was no Jubilee heartbeat “the lord giveth and the lord taketh away”?

It’s a verse from Job. 

[Barb23]

9 hours ago, cmr2014 said:

I'm sure it was a wedding gift from a Duggar,

Probably Anna.  Remember she & the little M's made that horrid baby mobile for Derek & Jill? 

I wonder if Anna feels a little jealous that Josiah & Lauren are getting all the attention incl talk show appearances about their miscarriage when her & Smuggs just got a blurb about Anna's miscarriage?  (Which I think was the better way to do it.)

9 hours ago, cmr2014 said:

Of course she would have. I just double checked and an embryo is the size of a sweet pea at 6 weeks. I think she "believed" that she did, but I doubt that she actually did.

She also mentioned "losing their only child" like it was a 5 year child that died. 

[BitterApple]

19 minutes ago, Barb23 said:

She also mentioned "losing their only child" like it was a 5 year child that died. 

Lauren strikes me as a bit of a drama queen. I feel bad for what happened, but something about her is so off-putting.

[leighdear]

14 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

Lauren strikes me as a bit of a drama queen. I feel bad for what happened, but something about her is so off-putting.

Agreed.  She is still a teen, so of course the more dramatic, the better.  And it seems her main exposure to this family has all been media influenced, televised and in the popular press.  She definitely seems to have absorbed more of their " C-list celebrity culture" than say Austin or Kendra.  

[jukie]

Whoa that clip of them on the morning talk show, I don't even think they like each other let alone love each other.  The blatant lack of chemistry, and zero compassion or empathy shown by Josiah is heartbreaking.  I am sorry even if someone I didn't know was talking about something and got very obviously upset I would comfort them, even just a hand gesture or at least focus on them.

[TresGatos]

4 hours ago, JoanArc said:

3 hours ago, JoanArc said:

Edit: Oh, and something that bothered me - why no funeral? No ammo can? No big production? It was a person, right?

Lauren said when she miscarried, she saw her baby in the toilet. 

Did she flush or go fetch a fish net?

[libgirl2]

3 hours ago, JoanArc said:

I'm sorry, it's just their idea of heaven is so ridiculous. Go out play soccer with Moses for the next three billion eons, kids, then we'll get on the heavenly microphones an trade stilted cliches through a few heat deaths of universes...

(If anyone wants to be deliciously tortured - read the later Left Behind books that are set on post-Jesus return earth, and Heaven. Everyone is incapable of feeling any emotion but joy. Bible heroes visit people and robotically speak. Animals gratefully like up to be slaughtered for food. It's really an ironic hell. The Duggar house is pretty much that version of heaven-on-earth.)

Edit: Oh, and something that bothered me - why no funeral? No ammo can? No big production? It was a person, right?

I had read a couple of the books and was curious about how they would handle Christ's return. It was awfully done. I remember one of the characters saying "Wow, its Jesus!"  or "I can't believe its Jesus" or something like that. 

[Snow Fairy]

I had a misscariage at 7-8 weeks and yes, you can see gestational sac with embryo, it is not uncommon. I know when my came out, but I just did not want to look at that :(

And I saw a baby on ultrasound, it had a heartbeat then

[Oldernowiser]

Grieving is such an individual thing. It could be that all her hopes were pinned on a baby. It doesn’t seem like she’s all that thrilled with her marriage and these women aren’t allowed anything else but JESUS.

So as much as I think this is a private matter that should not be talk show or People magazine bait, I have to try to remember how hard it can be when hopes are taken away.

[Jynnan tonnix]

23 minutes ago, Oldernowiser said:

Grieving is such an individual thing. It could be that all her hopes were pinned on a baby. It doesn’t seem like she’s all that thrilled with her marriage and these women aren’t allowed anything else but JESUS.

So as much as I think this is a private matter that should not be talk show or People magazine bait, I have to try to remember how hard it can be when hopes are taken away.

I suppose, if some of the sense we are getting of these two from the body language, etc, is accurate, she may feel that a baby is the only way that she will have some actual love in her marriage.

[Churchhoney]

11 hours ago, cmr2014 said:

Of course she would have. I just double checked and an embryo is the size of a sweet pea at 6 weeks. I think she "believed" that she did, but I doubt that she actually did.

Sounds right to me. That "sweet pea" description was driving me crazy....Don't they mean just a damn green pea? A "sweetpea" is a flower that's way bigger than a green pea. What the HECK?

Anyway, I looked further. .... And it seems that the little curled-up creature that's a 6-week embryo is between about one-tenth of an inch in diameter and one-quarter inch in diameter.   

Very small and hard to notice, although, obviously, possible. 

Edited February 13, 2019 by Churchhoney

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, jukie said:

Whoa that clip of them on the morning talk show, I don't even think they like each other let alone love each other.  The blatant lack of chemistry, and zero compassion or empathy shown by Josiah is heartbreaking.  I am sorry even if someone I didn't know was talking about something and got very obviously upset I would comfort them, even just a hand gesture or at least focus on them.

Remember the body language on the Megyn Kelly interview when Jill broke up and Jessa sat nearby apparently unmoved? (I don't watch them, so I think I remember people saying this happened. If not, sorry about the error.) 

In any case, though, I don't think exhibiting physical, verbal or any other kind of empathy to another person struggling is something that the Duggars have imbibed with their mother's milk, if you get my drift. 

As for whether they actually feel the empathy inside but don't act on it, I do think that's possible. So I wouldn't go nearly so far as to say they have no empathy. It's never been modeled for them in any way, shape, or form, though, as far as I can tell. 

So if that is actually the case, it would certainly inhibit some people from ever showing it or even letting themselves know they feel it.

Plus, hasn't actual sniping already been seen between Lauren and Josiah -- mainly coming from Lauren's side? If you already were inhibited about reaching out to someone, you felt sadly disconnected from them even though you were married to them (which a lot of people posit they both do), and that person has said some snide things to you that suggest she doesn't like you either, all of those things would make you unlikely to reach out, I would think. (especially with tv cameras all around)

Edited February 13, 2019 by Churchhoney

[Saylii]

You can definitely tell there’s something in the blood clots when it all comes out.  I wouldn’t necessarily call it “the baby” but there can be parts of tissue/placenta/uterus shredding that you can visibly see.

I sincerely hope that Josiah, JB, and Daddy Dwain are supportive of her getting prenatal care in the future.  She probably wasn’t far enough along for any real appointments, but she should meet with an OB now and get situated before her next pregnancy.  Hopefully it was a one-off situation and she will have healthy babies.  But coupled with her other health problems she may need professional support to keep a baby to term. 

[Natalie68]

17 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Wow, there is absolutely no love or warmth between Josiah and Lauren whatsoever. Si's body is stiff and he didn't even turn towards his wife or offer a gesture of affection when she got emotional talking about the miscarriage. They're newlyweds, ffs. They come across like a middle-aged couple seething with twenty years worth of resentment.

Was Lauren seeing a doctor? She couldn't even answer how far along she was. It sounds like the pee stick turned blue and she got a bad period a few days later.

They are officially the weirdest and saddest couple of the bunch, and that's saying a lot....

It's a video talking about a sad event but I gotta say I am not feeling Lauren.  I had this opinion before I watched that video.  

[Absolom]

1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

Anyway, I looked further. .... And it seems that the little curled-up creature that's a 6-week embryo is between about one-tenth of an inch in diameter and one-quarter inch in diameter.   

Very small and hard to notice, although, obviously, possible. 

She could have seen the sac as she passed it.  

Quote

yolk sac should be seen on transabdominal scanning when the mean sac diameter (MSD) is 20 mm or at a gestational age of 7 weeks and is usually seen endovaginally with an MSD of 8-10 mm or gestational age of 5.5 weeks.

At 7 weeks it's a bit over 3/4 of an inch so is easily visible.   She didn't say in the interview I watched how far along she was so if she made it that far, she would have been able to see products of conception as they're termed sometimes.   

[JoanArc]

2 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Sounds right to me. That "sweet pea" description was driving me crazy....Don't they mean just a damn green pea? A "sweetpea" is a flower that's way bigger than a green pea. What the HECK?

Anyway, I looked further. .... And it seems that the little curled-up creature that's a 6-week embryo is between about one-tenth of an inch in diameter and one-quarter inch in diameter.   

Very small and hard to notice, although, obviously, possible. 

85% chance they name the baby Sweet Pea Duggar.

[xtwheeler]

On 2/12/2019 at 9:45 AM, Oldernowiser said:

I feel sort of bad for her...she’s a teenager in an arranged marriage in a cult that bases a woman’s worth on how many babies she produces. Now this happens.

Statistically, someone in this vast clan was going to have fertility issues. I can only hope the cult is supportive.

Given this cult blames sexual abuse on a 5 year old's somehow "alluring" behavior, and a husband trying to bang women of disputed virtue on his wife, I feel certain that they blame miscarriage on the woman. She wasn't yet good enough for one of Jesus' army. 

[Westiepeach]

So I watched the video. She is hanging onto him for dear life. Every question that was asked, Lauren looked to “Si” before she answered. He never acknowledged her at all. Sheesh. They really don’t like each other. At all. 

[Christina87]

I'm a Christian and definitely believe it's possible that these super early term pregnancies go to heaven, as they are a life. I've always imagined them turning into children and playing with each other until they get the chance to know their parents, by that's just my wishful thinking. I don't presume to know, but the Duggars think they know everything, and could never be wrong. I also think they clearly don't differentiate between a six-week-old fetus and an 95-year-old man. They're both equal to them, while most of us would consider them very different things. The fetus was not old enough to feel pain, so while it is sad, it's not the same as delivering a preemie who may suffer, or losing your five-year-old in a painful accident. I have no qualms with them looking forward to meeting their child in heaven, but the way they turn everything so preachy turns me off. 

[cmr2014]

11 hours ago, JoanArc said:

Edit: Oh, and something that bothered me - why no funeral? No ammo can? No big production? It was a person, right?

I was thinking the same thing! I'm genuinely sorry for them -- for their loss and for many other reasons, and I don't want to sound glib about this, but yeah. This was their "baby" and they make such a huge deal about its personhood from the moment of conception -- then she just flushes it down the toilet? I thought the funeral for a fetus in an ammo box was sad and weird and wrong, but it was at least consistent with what they insist they believe. If they genuinely believe that this embryo was the exact same thing as a baby or a child, then I can't imagine simply flushing it away.

2 hours ago, xtwheeler said:

Given this cult blames sexual abuse on a 5 year old's somehow "alluring" behavior, and a husband trying to bang women of disputed virtue on his wife, I feel certain that they blame miscarriage on the woman. She wasn't yet good enough for one of Jesus' army. 

If the rumors that Josiah's sexuality are what got him shipped off to Alert are true, then I think this is a rare case where he will shoulder the burden of blame with her. I think that they will assume that Josiah is still having "impure" thoughts, or lacking a "commitment to godly marriage," or is too "feminine to father a child" -- and he bears responsibility for that. Lauren would still, of course, bear ultimate responsibility for not reforming Josiah with her feminine charms and bear the lion's share of the blame for the miscarriage.

[PikaScrewChu]

1 hour ago, Westiepeach said:

So I watched the video. She is hanging onto him for dear life. Every question that was asked, Lauren looked to “Si” before she answered. He never acknowledged her at all. Sheesh. They really don’t like each other. At all. 

I had a checklist going about how 'Siah is veering into Joshley territory. Then I realized that the Smuggar actually seemed interested in Anna for a bit.

Move along folks, nothing to see here but two people who don't like each other procreating because Jesus.

[Sew Sumi]

At best, the relationship is one-sided. She's always clinging, and he never reciprocates.

[louannems]

6 hours ago, Natalie68 said:

It's a video talking about a sad event but I gotta say I am not feeling Lauren.  I had this opinion before I watched that video.  

I think Lauren married WAY too young, before her sense of identity was fully formed.  She said she waited soooooo long to get married, which was just rediculous.  And she has miscarried her only child, like she is now menopausal! She is playing house with Josiah, eager to be on TV and married to a "celebrity" , decorating her bland house in inoffenssive hotel tones, sitting around waiting  to breed.

[Annb67]

Here's what makes me angry. This happened in October. So now, in February and coincidentally right as they are promoting the new season, they feel led to talk about this and "encourage others". Please.

[Minivanessa]

9 minutes ago, Annb67 said:

Here's what makes me angry. This happened in October. So now, in February and coincidentally right as they are promoting the new season, they feel led to talk about this and "encourage others". Please.

Their job is to be on reality TV, and they are being led to "encourage others" on a timeline that serves to promote the show. It's business. Dressed up in Jesus talk.

[jcbrown]

10 minutes ago, Annb67 said:

Here's what makes me angry. This happened in October. So now, in February and coincidentally right as they are promoting the new season, they feel led to talk about this and "encourage others". Please.

I wonder if any Duggarling has any idea what it's like to have an authentic emotion or reaction, given that they were raised to stomp them down within themselves and then trot out party line "feelings" on cue to benefit their parents' teevee career.

I agree--I am angry at them and sad for them simultaneously, that they are continuing to live the intensely damaged lives their parents decreed and they still think they are holier than the rest of us.

[BigBingerBro]

Not that I am defending anything Duggar, but the time element (Oct vs Feb) could be part of the reason Josiah seemed so uncaring and awkward in the interview.  Let's face it, these people can't act.

[Gweilo]

Lauren's probably pregnant again by now.

[madpsych78]

2 hours ago, PikaScrewChu said:

I had a checklist going about how 'Siah is veering into Joshley territory. Then I realized that the Smuggar actually seemed interested in Anna for a bit.

Move along folks, nothing to see here but two people who don't like each other procreating because Jesus.

Josiah resembles Josh, but I don't believe they are similar. Josiah doesn't appear to hold the same sense of entitlement that Josh had. And Smuggar is clearly interested in women. The jury's out on Josiah I think. 

I'm not sure where everyone's getting that Lauren doesn't like Josiah though. I agree with those who stated that the relationship seems one-sided and that Josiah is not "into" Lauren, but I think she is at least trying to be into him.

[Churchhoney]

24 minutes ago, madpsych78 said:

Josiah resembles Josh, but I don't believe they are similar. Josiah doesn't appear to hold the same sense of entitlement that Josh had. And Smuggar is clearly interested in women. The jury's out on Josiah I think. 

I'm not sure where everyone's getting that Lauren doesn't like Josiah though. I agree with those who stated that the relationship seems one-sided and that Josiah is not "into" Lauren, but I think she is at least trying to be into him.

I don't watch, but I think I've read people describing some times when she's been quite snappish at him or something? Has that actually happened or not? 

[madpsych78]

28 minutes ago, madpsych78 said:

Josiah resembles Josh, but I don't believe they are similar. Josiah doesn't appear to hold the same sense of entitlement that Josh had. And Smuggar is clearly interested in women. The jury's out on Josiah I think. 

I'm not sure where everyone's getting that Lauren doesn't like Josiah though. I agree with those who stated that the relationship seems one-sided and that Josiah is not "into" Lauren, but I think she is at least trying to be into him.

Answering my own wonderment, I just remembered Lauren's prank that was aired on CO. 

[Sew Sumi]

12 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

I don't watch, but I think I've read people describing some times when she's been quite snappish at him or something? Has that actually happened or not? 

She's a simpering fool with an inflated ego.

[Saylii]

Lauren is snappish, but she acts like that in her solo TH’s too.  I think it’s more the affect she’s put on her voice and the fact that everything gets a layer of simpering eyeroll, like she is fully aware that she is the smartest person in the room and everything is just so beneath her.  The only time I wasn’t struck by it is when she was with her family getting ready for the wedding.  Lauren's definitely “acting” and “on” 24/7.  I think she might even out fame-ho Jeremy in the end.

Edited February 14, 2019 by Saylii

[Gemma Violet]

1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

I don't watch, but I think I've read people describing some times when she's been quite snappish at him or something? Has that actually happened or not? 

Yes, she's made some passive aggressive remarks to him a few times.  

[JoanArc]

11 hours ago, cmr2014 said:

I thought the funeral for a fetus in an ammo box was sad and weird and wrong, but it was at least consistent with what they insist they believe. If they genuinely believe that this embryo was the exact same thing as a baby or a child, then I can't imagine simply flushing it away.

Yep. Michelle's Miscarriage was more important than the others, of course.

[Churchhoney]

Thanks for the Lauren assessments, guys! She sounds...uh...lovely. ;  )

I feel very happy for Marjorie's escape. But I wonder whether Josiah might have felt and exhibited a little longer-lasting warmth for her.

In clips I saw, he seemed to be actually pretty enthusiastic about that relationship. This one, not so much, I guess. 

Edited February 14, 2019 by Churchhoney

[PikaScrewChu]

10 hours ago, madpsych78 said:

Josiah resembles Josh, but I don't believe they are similar. Josiah doesn't appear to hold the same sense of entitlement that Josh had. And Smuggar is clearly interested in women. The jury's out on Josiah I think.

I do remember Josiah being very smug during the 19 Kids and Counting days. It lead to him being called Smuggar 2.0 or Smuggar Jr. Can't remember.

It's very easy to forget how similar they are because Josh has become persona non grata everywhere except in the mind of leg humpers.

[BitterApple]

13 hours ago, BigBingerBro said:

Not that I am defending anything Duggar, but the time element (Oct vs Feb) could be part of the reason Josiah seemed so uncaring and awkward in the interview.  Let's face it, these people can't act.

For me, it's the general uneasiness between the two of them that sets off alarm bells. I agree that Si isn't going to be a weepy, emotional mess when he's had four months to process the event, but Lauren was upset and he barely glanced her way. You'd think he would've instinctively turned to comfort her, but he sat stone-faced with his body squared evenly towards the camera. 

Si was one of the rare Duggar kids who showed some spark. Sadly, I think he has enough of a brain to realize he's stuck in a marriage that has little potential for long-term happiness. I predict he's going to start aging in dog years pretty quickly. 

Edited February 14, 2019 by BitterApple

[graefin]

1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

For me, it's the general uneasiness between the two of them that sets off alarm bells. I agree that Si isn't going to be a weepy, emotional mess when he's had four months to process the event, but Lauren was upset and he barely glanced her way. You'd think he would've instinctively turned to comfort her, but he sat stone-faced with his body squared evenly towards the camera. 

I think they lack the chemistry some of the other couples seemed to ooze (see Jeremy and Jinger).  That weirdly distant, hands-off approach they seem to take when someone is going through something emotional isn't limited to Josiah, though. Jessa had the same response when Jill was crying right next to her in that special they did right after Josh-gate.

It makes me think that this family never learned how to be warm to each other in a spontaneous, natural, safe way after the molestations happened because their idiot parents were so busy trying to keep their "safeguards" in place at all costs (sidehugs only, anyone?) in order to prevent such a thing from happening again. Add into that the fact that the offspring are emotionally stilted from the outset in any case because of their cult upbringing, and basically you have no "hey, she's upset, I should comfort her" instincts.

[libgirl2]

2 hours ago, graefin said:

I think they lack the chemistry some of the other couples seemed to ooze (see Jeremy and Jinger).  That weirdly distant, hands-off approach they seem to take when someone is going through something emotional isn't limited to Josiah, though. Jessa had the same response when Jill was crying right next to her in that special they did right after Josh-gate.

It makes me think that this family never learned how to be warm to each other in a spontaneous, natural, safe way after the molestations happened because their idiot parents were so busy trying to keep their "safeguards" in place at all costs (sidehugs only, anyone?) in order to prevent such a thing from happening again. Add into that the fact that the offspring are emotionally stilted from the outset in any case because of their cult upbringing, and basically you have no "hey, she's upset, I should comfort her" instincts.

And just look at Abbie and John. Sure they are older, but they are so "warm" with each other. Maybe it also has to do with the other person bringing that warmth out.