S01.E06: Ascension

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

The team hatches a plan to catch the killer. Moore checks in on a friend. Kreizler faces his own self-doubt about the investigation. Roosevelt attends an event with the city’s elite. Sara looks into Kreizler’s past. Connor acts on impulse.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Promo:

 

Clip:

[Neurochick]

I guess Van Bergen’s not the killer.

[88Keys]

16 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I guess Van Bergen’s not the killer.

Not anymore, he isn't!  Even though Cooper is kind of the second antagonist of this show, that genuinely surprised me.  

This episode, and the last one, have been great.  This show took a bit to get going, but it's really engaging now and I wish I could just binge-watch the whole thing. 

I spent the first few episodes thinking that Marcus seemed familiar (and super-attractive).  Finally looked him up and realized he was the kid from "Out There," and was the brother of the Indigo Child on CSI.  I keep thinking something is going to happen to him or his brother (I haven't read the books, so that's just a guess on my part).

[Straycat80]

I'm really enjoying this show. It did start off slow but it's picked up and now more interesting since Van Bergen is not the killer. So apparently the killer is someone we haven't been introduced to yet?

And what's the story with Kriezler and the maybe not deformed arm? And I actually gasped out loud when he slapped Sarah. Just when I start to like this guy, then I don't. Still am anticipating learning his story. 

[tennisgurl]

I highly suspected Van Bergen wasn't the killer, but him being killed was a real shocker! Or at least, he wasn't the killer they were looking for. 

Moore has so much sympathy for these kids, its going to get him into trouble one of these days. He did get some decent detecting in there, and I hope he can eventually get into illustrating again. Much less chance of finding dead bodies or being roofied. 

The one little kid who was trying to teach Stevie to be more flirty was just chilling. He looked so young to sound so worldly. Stevie's clear discomfort with being in girl clothes was actually a bit of comic relief a few times, before it got straight up scary. Thank god the guy ran for it, even if it ended badly for that other poor kid. 

This show keeps getting better and better, I think I might actually read the book when this is over, even knowing the ending!

[Reality police]

So many things to make you suck the air out of the room. I think I actually gasped when Dr. K slapped Sarah. I know I held my breath when that man talked to Stevie. My heart broke when they found Cyrus. Can't wait for next week. This show is killing me. 

[Hazel55]

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

I guess Van Bergen’s not the killer.

And former police Captain Connor (who could have simply pushed the untouchably rich, sure to be missed by his parents Van Bergen into the water and made it look like an accident, but who instead chose to shoot him in the head, ensuring that everyone will know "silver smile" was murdered) is officially the dumbest tv law enforcement official ever. And I watched The Following.                

Edited February 27, 2018 by Hazel55

[HunterHunted]

22 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

The one little kid who was trying to teach Stevie to be more flirty was just chilling. He looked so young to sound so worldly.

He reminded me of the young prostitute character on Copper. They had a 12 year old prostitute who was obsessed with the protagonist. And to really creep out the audience, the show hired an 8 year old to play her.

29 minutes ago, Straycat80 said:

And what's the story with Kriezler and the maybe not deformed arm? And I actually gasped out loud when he slapped Sarah. Just when I start to like this guy, then I don't. Still am anticipating learning his story. 

Kriezler is such a creepy sanctimonious weirdo. Mary and the finger. Slapping Sarah. 

Bye Red Herring Van Bergen.

[tennisgurl]

You know, I originally wasn't too excited about the prospect of John and Sarah getting together, but I thought the scene with them at the garden, where she cheered him on for stopping his drinking (even with the shakes) and she shared her findings in the newspaper about Kriezler with him, to be quite charming, and I saw some good chemistry there. 

This show has the freakiest endings on TV, every week, I swear. 

Edited February 27, 2018 by tennisgurl

[Hazel55]

"This is no task for the weaker sex. Or for cripples." But apparently, it was just the task for several easily distracted, wimpy males who can't run, shoot, or judge a situation correctly for crap!

But seriously, this episode did a great job of debunking the ableism and sexism that pervaded 1890's social norms. . Lucius's judgement (that a bad arm and the lack of a penis) were defects that rendered Sarah and Lazlo less able were clearly so widely accepted that not even Sarah or Lazlo argue against them; they seem to just accept them as true. However, the exclusion of Kreizler and Sarah clearly harmed the investigation by placing it into the hands of three men (Marcus, Lucius, and John) who were far less equipped to handle the situation.

We, the modern viewers, can discern that of all the team members, Kreitzler and Sarah are probably the most equipped to handle the situation. They have the strongest powers of observation, the best concentration, and the best instinctual grasp of the killers next moves. Neither two good arms nor a penis was needed during this venture; what was crucial was better concentration, observational skills, and better judgement than any of the "able bodied" men were able to provide.

Seriously, with the exception of Stevie and Cyrus, the men involved ranged from mediocre to totally inept. Marcus Issacson got distracted reciting dirty limericks right when the killer walked into the trap. (If he'd been paying proper attention, as Kreitzler or Sarah definitely would have been, then they could have caught the killer.)  Lucius Issacson didn't do much of anything; then made the insane judgement call to leave his partner totally alone and vulnerable to attack in order to "help" a room with several different people in it. (Seriously, that was such a weird call that I can't help but feel there's more to the story; like perhaps he knew that the killer was coming, and decided to abandon his post out of fear or something. We'll see.)

And then we have John. Oh, Lawdy. I've grown to love the guy, but nobody, and I mean nobody, could be less suited for this particular task. He is laughably easily distracted (like Marcus, letting his attention drop at the crucial moment), unable to fight, and thinks that lighting a big cigarette twice during a stakeout is a good judgement call. 

 The fact that the only truly competent member of the group-- Cyrus, who is able to fight, and was observant enough to record how many men spoke to Stevie-- ended up getting attacked was truly a cruel twist of fate.

Anyway... loved getting more Stevie and Cyrus; seeing more of John's (hilarious) granny and her armadillo; seeing everyone working together as a team; and Sarah and Lazlo continue to surprise and please me with their development. 

Edited February 27, 2018 by Hazel55

[TrininisaScorp]

Hazel55, WORD.  I was screaming at the tv at how freaking useless John, Marcus, and Lucius were when Sara and Kriezler, arguably the most competent of our crew, were just chilling there.  I am glad they are holding to the social norms of the time, but that doesn't make them less frustrating while the 3 "strong, smart" menfolk were fucking up all over the place.  I was so worried about Stevie; he has really grown on me.

I love that Sara is delving into Kriezler's past a little and calling him on some of his blatant falsehoods.  Personally, I've been of the mind that Kriezler likes to dish, but can't take it.  Certainly, she didn't seem to go remotely as far and inappropriate as Kriezler has been in past.  And he had NO right to strike her.  Come on, bro...not cool. 

 I love John's granny.  She's a tough chick, she "rightfully" gives John shit, and she likes Sara.  I'm pleased to see John working his way to potentially becoming a better man.  I don't think Sara needs a damn thing, but I could get behind John and Sara.  I like the idea that she has her shit together and he is one who may want/need her.  That's an interesting imbalance considering the time period.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Yes, I was shaking my head when Sara and Laszlo were told to sit this one out because a vagina and only one functional arm disqualify you from using your eyeballs and mouth. The only thing I'm willing to concede is that Sara would not have been able to go into the brothel since the clientele was male. But there was no reason why she couldn't have been up on the roof, which would have freed up a man with a penis and two functional arms to be down on the ground or in the brothel.

When everyone later ran to the brothel and then one of them told Sara to stay there with Stevie while they all ran back across the street, I was once again shaking my head. Let's leave the boy who the killer was interested in with the fairer sex whom you've deemed too delicate to assist you. Great idea, guys.

I was fine with the "rub your foot" signal when Stevie was out on the street and they had a full view of him, but it seemed stupid to use the same signal while they were in the brothel. I can tell you when  you're seated in a crowded room, it's difficult to see someone's foot.

Connor was an idiot. He could have just told Willem to jump but nope, he had to shoot him. I'm sure that won't cause any more problems!

I still love Susan Ross's mother aka Moore's grandmother. She continues to crack me up. The fact that she likes Sara is just a bonus.

I loved when Moore got a little pouty, suggesting that maybe Sara was in love with Laszlo, she said, "Maybe I am," and then continued on.

[BonnieD]

Agreed at their inept bungling. Yelling out "stop that man!" when they had a chance to get up close and simply nab him was bad policing. But then the detective is generally doing forensics, not street work and John isn't a professional anything. Cyrus should've been stationed down on the street where he could do close work, chasing, grabbing, strong-arming a guy into submission, whatever. The "useless" Sarah and Kreizler could've been observing at a safe distance, from the roof top.
Also, I did NOT BUY that the killer would return to nab his intended victim when he knew the police where right on his tail. He'd be too clever for that. 
Also, noticed they showed dirty fingernails when he touched Stevie's face, signifying a working man, which is pretty much what Kreizler had said--he come from a similar background as these boys. 

I feel pretty sure Kreizler's dad destroyed his hand in a fury. Maybe slammed a piano lid on it or mangled it in some other rage-induced act. Clearly Kreizler has dad issues. And as for his slapping Sarah, I'm sure its a family pattern he's tried desperately to avoid over the years, even going so far as to refuse to have any relationships with women (Mary) lest he turn out to be like daddy. To me his cold manner makes perfect sense in that sort of context. Guess we'll find out next week what his full back story is. Also, how many more episodes?

Edited February 27, 2018 by BonnieD

[BingeyKohan]

I gasped like 3 times this episode. To have been a serious Dakota Fanning doubter for this I have come all the way around to ride or die for her Sara Howard. I will be sad when this show is over. Good catch above on the dirty fingernails! Interested to hear Stevie’s description of his face.

[shrewd.buddha]

This show is really picking up steam now.  We are paying a lot more attention ..
These were some of the things that stood out to me during this episode :

• Everyone seems way too comfortable hanging out in an brothel with preteen boys dressed as girls. ...Including our heroes. And it is crowded. Would people - and the legal system - really be so relaxed about homosexual behavior during that time period? (not to mention the disturbingly young age thing)
• Given the time period, I can see it being socially acceptable for Kreizler to slap a woman when in a fit of rage. But the fact that he never apologizes for his temper tantrums is unacceptable.
• I am sort of glad that Willem got some just desserts - - but the disgraced, angry, former police chief yelling 'sodomite' before shooting him in the head did not make it go down so easy - - lots of things wrong on both sides. 
• Speaking of wrong things, it seems that every one of our heroes are pretty messed up people. 
• I was inclined to agree with Kreizler's feeling of failure. How many kids have to die before they can trap the killer?  And how much of a genius are the writers going to make the serial killer? It always annoys me when the serial killer is made out to be the smartest person who ever lived - that just happens to enjoy killing as a hobby - and we are supposed to be in awe of their abilities.
• I am starting to like Teddy Roosevelt more, now that he is standing up to the rich and powerful in order to do the right thing, instead of agreeing to smooth things out for the privileged class.  
• It is sort of odd to see Kreizler and the others so devoted to finding the killer of lower class kids - but at the same time they seem to accept all the other mistreatment of the young and underprivileged (like the children sleeping in the alleyways).  Yes, killing is a bad thing to have happen to you - - but what about the physical and sexual abuse that the kids are accepting as a regular part of their lives? Kreizler should create an orphanage - and not just for the children with emotional problems. 

Edited February 27, 2018 by shrewd.buddha

[libgirl2]

12 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I guess Van Bergen’s not the killer.

Guess not! 

1 hour ago, BonnieD said:

I feel pretty sure Kreizler's dad destroyed his hand in a fury. Maybe slammed a piano lid on it or mangled it in some other rage-induced act. Clearly Kreizler has dad issues. And as for his slapping Sarah, I'm sure its a family pattern he's tried desperately to avoid over the years, even going so far as to refuse to have any relationships with women (Mary) lest he turn out to be like daddy. To me his cold manner makes perfect sense in that sort of context. Guess we'll find out next week what his full back story is. Also, how many more episodes?

That makes sense. 

[Straycat80]

2 hours ago, BonnieD said:

Also, how many more episodes?

Two. 

[sjohnson]

I'm afraid I hold to the minority view that killing people is worse than having sex with them. As to the brutality to children, Stevie is working for a living and they made him bait for a serial killer. The show is very much a Mad Men exercise in tsk-tsking at out primitive forebears while simultaneously enjoying the louche. 

I don't know why there's so much love for the woman who plays Mary. I thought she meant to communicate excitement and satisfaction at getting Kreizler's attention of that kind. I do not understand this characters and for me the actress isn't helping. 

Part of the problem with the guys inside is that if they shoved away boys looking for customers, they would have stood out. They would still have been less conspicuous than if they had put on police uniforms, though. 

Marcus leaving Cyrus was leaving him in safety, so far as he knew, because he thought the to do was probably a confrontation with the killer. And the dialogue even suggested they hadn't taken to heart the importance of the climbing, stupid as it may seem. Unless it was inserted to remind us that Cyrus was hit because being on the roof he was in the way. 

I am baffled as to why Sarah was so determined to beat down Kreizler, to beat him at his own game of verbal destruction. For Kreizler, insights into disordered behavior in John and Sarah, unpleasant as it is for them, is practice for insight in the killer. Sarah's investigation of Kreizler instead of the killer suggests that on some level she sees him as a worse threat. At any rate, she won, Kreizler lost all his words, all his superiority. Obviously I think one should leave the group. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

2 hours ago, BonnieD said:

how many more episodes?

 

6 minutes ago, Straycat80 said:

Two. 

According to the internet, there are ten episodes in this season so there are four more left.

[proserpina65]

2 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

Everyone seems way too comfortable hanging out in an brothel with preteen boys dressed as girls. ...Including our heroes. And it is crowded. Would people - and the legal system - really be so relaxed about homosexual behavior during that time period? (not to mention the disturbingly young age thing)

Brothels of all kinds were very active during that time period.  The law looked the other way because the owners paid bribes to keep their establishments unmolested.  As for our protagonists, I think John was less uncomfortable than the Isaacson brother, but neither looked entirely at ease to me.

[pezgirl7]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

As for our protagonists, I think John was less uncomfortable than the Isaacson brother, but neither looked entirely at ease to me.

I actually thought John looked the most uncomfortable. Marcus didn't look uncomfortable at all, and seems to treats all the boys as just regular kids that are slightly annoying. I liked him interacting with that younger boy though, and that poem/joke he told... omg.

I want John to adopt all the boys, especially Joseph. :) Their scenes together were cute and heartwarming. I loved Joseph telling John that he thought it was dumb that people paid money for drawings, but then later inquired about it some more. I have no idea what other jobs were available for children so young, but I hope John can somehow help him.

Does anyone know what boy was murdered in this episode? My friend thought it was Joseph, but it didn't look like him to me. I'm holding out hope that he stays alive the entire show, but I'm also preparing for the worst.

We saw the killer in the first or second episode, in what looked like a barn, and he had a bunch of tools. So it makes sense that his fingernails would be dirty. Stevie looked super creeped out at the sight of him, so hopefully we get a description of him next episode.

So John quit drinking, and then buys a typewriter. Could he be anymore obvious?

[qtpye]

15 hours ago, 88Keys said:

Not anymore, he isn't!  Even though Cooper is kind of the second antagonist of this show, that genuinely surprised me.  

This episode, and the last one, have been great.  This show took a bit to get going, but it's really engaging now and I wish I could just binge-watch the whole thing. 

I spent the first few episodes thinking that Marcus seemed familiar (and super-attractive).  Finally looked him up and realized he was the kid from "Out There," and was the brother of the Indigo Child on CSI.  I keep thinking something is going to happen to him or his brother (I haven't read the books, so that's just a guess on my part).

 

14 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I highly suspected Van Bergen wasn't the killer, but him being killed was a real shocker! Or at least, he wasn't the killer they were looking for. 

Moore has so much sympathy for these kids, its going to get him into trouble one of these days. He did get some decent detecting in there, and I hope he can eventually get into illustrating again. Much less chance of finding dead bodies or being roofied. 

The one little kid who was trying to teach Stevie to be more flirty was just chilling. He looked so young to sound so worldly. Stevie's clear discomfort with being in girl clothes was actually a bit of comic relief a few times, before it got straight up scary. Thank god the guy ran for it, even if it ended badly for that other poor kid. 

This show keeps getting better and better, I think I might actually read the book when this is over, even knowing the ending!

It is really something about the brutality of the time to see so many children living in such wretched filth and poverty.  A little child playing marbles next to a dead rotting horse.  The truth is in many places in the world this is still the way life is for poor children.  I guess it is like the Europeans who are shocked at the homeless in NYC and other American big cities, but the people living there are used to it.

14 hours ago, Reality police said:

So many things to make you suck the air out of the room. I think I actually gasped when Dr. K slapped Sarah. I know I held my breath when that man talked to Stevie. My heart broke when they found Cyrus. Can't wait for next week. This show is killing me. 

Shows don not usually surprise me and I totally was not expecting that.  I am glad they did not clean up his reaction to be more palatable for a modern audience.

14 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

He reminded me of the young prostitute character on Copper. They had a 12 year old prostitute who was obsessed with the protagonist. And to really creep out the audience, the show hired an 8 year old to play her.

Kriezler is such a creepy sanctimonious weirdo. Mary and the finger. Slapping Sarah. 

Bye Red Herring Van Bergen.

Again, the fact that sexual exploitation is just a part of the desperate circumstances of impoverished children really breaks your heart.

[emma675]

I really enjoyed all of the shocking moments in this episode. Van Bergen getting shot in the head by Connor, Kreizler slapping Sarah, Cyrus being attacked, the killer hitting on Stevie. There was so much that made me gasp, this show has really hit its stride.

Quote

Does anyone know what boy was murdered in this episode? My friend thought it was Joseph, but it didn't look like him to me. I'm holding out hope that he stays alive the entire show, but I'm also preparing for the worst.

I couldn't tell if it was Joseph or the little boy that was giving Stevie tips on how to flirt. Either way, it's going to hit the team hard.

[Neurochick]

Most TV shows, books and relationships don't start off with a bang, you have to be patient.  That's hard to do today.

10 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

Everyone seems way too comfortable hanging out in an brothel with preteen boys dressed as girls. ...Including our heroes. And it is crowded. Would people - and the legal system - really be so relaxed about homosexual behavior during that time period? (not to mention the disturbingly young age thing)

In the 1890's, childhood wasn't seen the way it is today.  Children at that time were seen as little adults.  One of the reasons people don't like Kreizler, is because he felt that people were the way they were because of what happened to them in childhood.  People in the nineteenth century (and even today) believed that God gave man free will, so, say if a child worked in a brothel, that was their choice.  There was no welfare, no organizations to protect women and children.  Also many of these children were poor immigrants and no one really gave a shit about them.

This NYC is before the subways, which changed everything.  In the 1890's, people lived close to where they worked.  When the subways came into being, people were able to move out of the area and into The Bronx, which was practically the country at that time.

[EyewatchTV211]

11 hours ago, BonnieD said:

Agreed at their inept bungling. Yelling out "stop that man!" when they had a chance to get up close and simply nab him was bad policing. But then the detective is generally doing forensics, not street work and John isn't a professional anything. Cyrus should've been stationed down on the street where he could do close work, chasing, grabbing, strong-arming a guy into submission, whatever. The "useless" Sarah and Kreizler could've been observing at a safe distance, from the roof top.
Also, I did NOT BUY that the killer would return to nab his intended victim when he knew the police where right on his tail. He'd be too clever for that. 
Also, noticed they showed dirty fingernails when he touched Stevie's face, signifying a working man, which is pretty much what Kreizler had said--he come from a similar background as these boys. 
 

This is a pet peeve of mine on EVERY show that has police. Most of them modern ones. 

[Haleth]

Little Alice Roosevelt!  ❤️

7 hours ago, pezgirl7 said:

 

Does anyone know what boy was murdered in this episode? M

I thought it was the boy talking to Marcus.  Rosie?  Is that what he called himself?

I was so frustrated that no one was paying attention to Stevie.  You all had one job!

[thuganomics85]

The fuck, Laszio?!  Slapping Sarah like that really isn't dispelling the notion that you are a coward.  He really is coming of like someone who, among other things, can dish out plenty of criticism, but can take it when others give it right back to him.  Dude might be the smartest guy in the room (nine times out of ten), but he's got issues.  A lot of issues.

Figured the sting would end up being a bust and, yeah, I suspect a lot of it was do to them sidelining arguably two most competent characters, thanks to good old-fashioned sexism and bigotry towards the disabled.  Obviously, I don't think the Isaacons or John are malicious guys, but they clearly let their views cloud their judgement.  Hope Cyrus is OK, but it's going to hit them hard once they find out someone else was killed.

Whelp, Van Burgen certainly isn't the killer!  Roosevelt had no idea that canning Connor would make him unleash the crazy.  Dude needs to get taken down, stat.

Curious to see more of Michael Ironside's J.P. Morgan.

[Hazel55]

14 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

Everyone seems way too comfortable hanging out in an brothel with preteen boys dressed as girls. ...Including our heroes. 

That's because brothels (including child brothels) were common knowledge for all of the adult men in 1890's New York City. When asked about this issue, Caleb Carr, author of the Alienist and a professional historian, answered, "Yes, numerous child brothels existed in 1890's New York, and I can guarantee you that, in the very least,  all of the male residents of the city would have known about them." 

14 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

 Would people - and the legal system - really be so relaxed about homosexual behavior during that time period? (not to mention the disturbingly young age thing) 

I can guarantee you that so long as the brothel proprieters paid the police off (something called "graff"), the police would look the other way, caring little whether the brothels were homosexual, heterosexual, or exclusively children. The police, politicians, and those with power were laughably corrupt; and so long as they got their pay day, they really didn't care what went on inside the closed doors of the brothels. In private, I imagine many of the (largely Irish, mostly uneducated) police officers found homosexuality distasteful or downright disgusting, but they would allow such "perversions" if it got them extra money. 

Furthermore, child labor was still the norm at this time; it was common for not just working class, but for middle class children to work during this time period. 

14 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

Given the time period, I can see it being socially acceptable for Kreizler to slap a woman when in a fit of rage. 

It would not have been. In fact, given the general view of women that was still prevalent during the late Victorian Era, people would have been even more shocked that Kreitzler had dared to strike a lady. 

There is an incorrect presumption that during the Victorian Era, many men beat women in general, or their wives in particular; or that such violence was more acceptable. This was not the case. As now, such behavior was looked down upon. Heavy physical abuse of one's spouse was also seen as an issue of the lower classes; it was unthinkable to many that a wealthy and well educated male could ever be such a brute. 

So even Kreitzler striking his wife in private during an argument would have been considered brutish during this time; Kreitzler striking his aquiantance Miss Howard would have been seen as unthinkably shocking and inappropriate as it would be today. The only difference is that today Kreitzler would be more likely to be arrested for assault on the spot and dragged away. 

So no, Kreiztler assaulting Sarah Howard would be no more "socially acceptable" in the 1890's than it would be today. Furthermore.....

14 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

Given the time period, I can see it being socially acceptable for Kreizler to slap a woman when in a fit of rage. But the fact that he never apologizes for his temper tantrums is unacceptable

I'm sorry if I'm misinterpreting you here, and I don't want to put words into your mouth.... but are you implying that it were "more socially acceptable" in 1896, that somehow mitigates Kreitzler's actions, or should? You note that "...the fact that he never apologizes for his temper tantrums is unacceptable", however, I'd counter that the fact that his most recent temper tantrum included physical abuse is a far greater issue. 

14 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

It always annoys me when the serial killer is made out to be the smartest person who ever lived - that just happens to enjoy killing as a hobby - and we are supposed to be in awe of their abilities

I don't think that the serial killer is being made out to be "the smartest person who ever lived." Quite the opposite, actually-- I believe that the killer is being shown making many mistakes; ultimately coming across as a man of average (to slightly above average) intelligence who is almost entirely driven by his base compulsions and obsessions. 

The reasons why Our Heroes come off as so inept and keep failing to catch them is simple: it is the 1890's, and they don't know what we know. The notion of a killer like this is relatively new; criminal profiling is yet unheard of. These people are basically groping around in the dark for some coherent method of tracking down this guy and stopping him; but all they have are Kreitzler's unproven theories and their own best guesses. They are hunting a new kind of killer who is not widely understood, using new methods that are just beginning to form. Of course they're at a loss; but that's not necessarily due to the killer being a super genius or something. 

Edited February 28, 2018 by Hazel55

[shrewd.buddha]

What I meant to say  about the unacceptable aspect of Kreizler never apologizing for his temper tantrums ( slapping, yelling, throwing things) - is that is unacceptable to me.  He is now a character that I do not respect or sympathize with as much.  (Sort of how Sarah now treats him - with a bit of disdain.)  Despite his intelligence, education and position, he is like a child that has temper tantrums and people who work with him start to wonder what might set him off. His character loses some respectability when he doesn't acknowledge his misdeeds. 
He is like one of those people in power that seem to have a policy of never apologizing for their actions. It is not a good quality. ...But those people who apologize for everything are also slightly irritating. 

Edited February 28, 2018 by shrewd.buddha

[qtpye]

3 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

What I meant to say  about the unacceptable aspect of Kreizler never apologizing for his temper tantrums ( slapping, yelling, throwing things) - is that is unacceptable to me.  He is now a character that I do not respect or sympathize with as much.  (Sort of how Sarah now treats him - with a bit of disdain.)  Despite his intelligence, education and position, he is like a child that has temper tantrums and people who work with him start to wonder what might set him off. His character loses some respectability when he doesn't acknowledge his misdeeds. 
He is like one of those people in power that seem to have a policy of never apologizing for their actions. It is not a good quality. ...But those people who apologize for everything are also slightly irritating. 

In line with dishing it out and not taking it, he freely asked about Sarah's father's death, even before he knew her very well.  He bring's up Moore's fiance deserting him several times and does not mind opening up emotional wounds in people that he cares about.  However, dare ask about his baggage and you will be struck in the face....really?

[festivus]

On 2/26/2018 at 10:31 PM, HunterHunted said:

Kriezler is such a creepy sanctimonious weirdo. Mary and the finger. Slapping Sarah. 

Let's not forget him sniffing Mary's underwear last episode. I really do not like this guy. I like Sara looking around for his dirt and confronting him with it. What goes around comes around.

[jrlr]

28 minutes ago, qtpye said:

In line with dishing it out and not taking it, he freely asked about Sarah's father's death, even before he knew her very well.  He bring's up Moore's fiance deserting him several times and does not mind opening up emotional wounds in people that he cares about.  However, dare ask about his baggage and you will be struck in the face....really?

I was really hoping Sarah would slap the increasingly insufferable Kreizler right back, and hard.  Given no reason (other than his exceedingly high opinion of his own skills) for Kreizler's grandiosity and bullying, then each episode produces less reason to sympathize with him or even root for him.  Do I want the killer to be caught?  Of course.  But as it stands now, I'd love to see the (boringly) tortured and smug little shit be one-upped by his crew and be proven wrong about his theories about the killer.   

[AnnieHeights]

Just some random thoughts:

I love Dakota as Sarah.   

I do not have to have a romance to be able to enjoy a show but I hope in the end, Sarah ends up with Moore (if she even wants a relationship).  He certainly does not seem the type that would ever hit her and they have a really good chemistry.  I appreciate Kreizler for his intelligence but slapping Sarah was unacceptable. 

I hope Cyrus is ok......

I agree with the above poster, the child killed was Rosie....there looked to be a red wig beside the body. 

I don't understand why so many men in NYC want to go to a brothel with underage boys dressed up and acting as women? Why not just go to a female brothel?  

[pezgirl7]

I understand Sara being annoyed at being called the weaker sex, but her being involved in the sting would have been a bad idea. A woman of her status wouldn't have been hanging out in that part of town, let alone inside a brothel, so she definitely could have tipped everyone off that something was going on. I suppose she could have hung out on the rooftop. What I don't understand is why some of the guys were in plain sight when the killer knows what they look like. They were lucky the killer didn't notice them as soon as he walked into the brothel.

[tessathereaper]

It's funny I don't think anyone noticed Sarah's own "sexist remark" when she told John he'd never learn to typewrite because he's a man and men lack dexterity. :)  

[Hazel55]

9 hours ago, pezgirl7 said:

I understand Sara being annoyed at being called the weaker sex, but her being involved in the sting would have been a bad idea. A woman of her status wouldn't have been hanging out in that part of town, let alone inside a brothel, so she definitely could have tipped everyone off that something was going on.

There's only one problem with this theory: when the Issacson's deliberately left Sarah out of the sting, the operation DID NOT yet involve being stationed in brothels. 

Originally, the Issacsons planned the operation so that four agents  would be stationed up on the roof tops, deliberately out of sight of everyone and watching Stevie on the street. When they deliberately left out Sarah (because she was "the weaker sex", as they noted), there was no danger of her attracting notice by being a rich woman in a brothel, because the scouts were hidden out of sight on the rooftops and not stationed inside brothels. (Furthermore, it was a crucial plot point that Stevie was stationed on the street in the first failed sting, not inside a brothel. That's why the killer didn't have the courage to approach him that first time.)

The idea to put two scouts into the brothels was only implemented in the second sting, after the first one failed. And if you recall correctly, it was added by Sarah Howard herself, who (correctly) surmised that the killer felt uncomfortable approaching Stevie in the open, since he'd abducted all of his other victims from inside.

So when the Isaacson's initially left Sarah out of the sting operation, they did not do it for the "good reason" that she would have attracted attention as an upper class woman in a brothel-- because initially the Issacsons plan did not involve going in a brothel. It involved hiding on rooftops and watching with binoculars, which Sarah could have done just as easily as the men (And a good deal better than John Moore, who blatantly attracted attention to himself by smoking cigarettes, even after being warned not to.) Unfortunately, Sarah was not left out of the sting for "sound reasons," but for exactly the reasons stated-- the men believed her weaker on account of her sex.

As for the second sting, I agree with you that it would have been unwise for Sarah to be one of the two scouts stationed in the brothels, on account that she would indeed stand out and attract attention. (To the extent that nearly all of the customers would freak out and start leaving.) However, there was no particular reason she couldn't have been stationed to watch from a hiding place on the roof. She would have done at least as good of a job as Lucius did, and I also can't see her making the stupid call he did when he decided to abandon Cyrus to run across the street to the others. 

If the second sting were planned by rational reasoning rather than 1890's prejudices, Sarah and Cyrus would have been stationed on the roof, Lucius and Lazlo in the brothel. Marcus and especially John had no business being a part of this venture, neither has shown the necessary skills for it in the past or during the sting itself. 

[mccartygirl]

On 2/27/2018 at 1:12 AM, Hazel55 said:

 

And then we have John. Oh, Lawdy. I've grown to love the guy, but nobody, and I mean nobody, could be less suited for this particular task. He is laughably easily distracted (like Marcus, letting his attention drop at the crucial moment), unable to fight, and thinks that lighting a big cigarette twice during a stakeout is a good judgement call. 

 

But he looked damn good lighting that cigarette! I came to the show for Luke Evans but the cast is amazing! Including Ray Donovan's wife's side piece. They are all killing it. 

I honestly felt bad for Silver Teeth. His mom was a total creeper. 

[sjohnson]

The first sting was very successful in preventing a murder. So I don't know how much of a failure it really was.

Sarah's idea of posting the watch inside the brothel didn't take into account the other people, either boys badgering the watchers for business or bystanders blocking the view or pursuit. So I don't know how much of a success it really was. I think real police much prefer to do arrests away from crowds for good reason. 

[sjohnson]

7 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

It's funny I don't think anyone noticed Sarah's own "sexist remark" when she told John he'd never learn to typewrite because he's a man and men lack dexterity. :)  

It wasn't sexism, it was humor. She was making fun of him. Sarah is much cooler than John, so this is fitting behavior. 

[bosawks]

I love how the show is using CGI.  The Statue of Liberty ending scene and Willem's high dive into the drink were obviously fake but completely evocative, almost like a Brechtian dream.

[tessathereaper]

1 hour ago, sjohnson said:

It wasn't sexism, it was humor. She was making fun of him. Sarah is much cooler than John, so this is fitting behavior. 

Actually I'm sorry I posted it in the wrong thread, it was supposed to be in the Episode 6 thread.  Not sure how I didn't realise that.

And I don't really think about "coolness" one way or another. Frankly none of these characters are actually "cool", they are all awkward and/or odd and/or damaged in their own ways.  (Also is it ever really "cool" to make fun of someone?  Not sure that is ever "fitting" behavior.  Particularly when they are doing nothing particularly worthy of mockery, I personally didn't think she was making fun of him in THAT way, though I did take it as good-natured teasing).

[sugarbaker design]

22 hours ago, AnnieHeights said:

I don't understand why so many men in NYC want to go to a brothel with underage boys dressed up and acting as women? Why not just go to a female brothel?  

Because they desire feminine boys, not feminine girls.  

I did love the scene with the three homeless kids sleeping in the street, then a quick flash to a society fundraiser for the 'prevention of cruelty to children' complete with a big stuffed bison!

Edited March 1, 2018 by sugarbaker design

[Seppuku]

For those questioning Sara being left out, aside from the fact that it was the norm back then to make such assumptions about women, do you really think Sara could’ve done much to help chasing or catching the killer with the clothes she’s wearing?!!

[spaceghostess]

Really enjoying this show and this thread. I read--and loved--the book when it first came out, but what stuck in my mind was the deep dive into history rather than the mystery itself. The happy result of this is that I'm not really spoiled for anything in the episodes, yay! Even so, I'll refrain from speculating on what might happen as I'm worried I'll accidentally remember something (without realizing I've remembered), resulting in unintentional spoilage of innocent parties.

The juxtaposition of those poor kids huddling in the rain with the opulence of the charity auction is The Gilded Age personified. The American Experience doc on The Gilded Age and the one about Roosevelt's trip down the Amazon in his later years are perfect companion pieces to The Alienist.

[Haleth]

On 3/1/2018 at 7:40 AM, mccartygirl said:

I honestly felt bad for Silver Teeth. His mom was a total creeper. 

He was abusing children.  He got off easy.

22 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

a quick flash to a society fundraiser for the 'prevention of cruelty to children' complete with a big stuffed bison!

I was trying to figure out if that was the Museum of Natural History or the Metropolitan Museum of Art.  It's been decades (too many) since I spent days running around those places.  

[Portia]

On 2/27/2018 at 11:21 PM, Hazel55 said:

I can guarantee you that so long as the brothel proprieters paid the police off (something called "graff")

I think the word you're looking for is graft. 

Quote

2. [graft, grahft] noun. the acquisition of money, gain, or advantage by dishonest, unfair, or illegal means, especially through the abuse of one's position or influence in politics, business, etc.

[PamelaMaeSnap]

Hoping that Cyrus is okay and thinking logically that he not only will be but that he'll have more of a role in remaining episodes since I can't believe they'd waste Bunny Colvin on a part that has had about 5 lines total so far ...

I also noticed the dirty nails on the hand stroking Stevie's cheek ... 

So, is the theory among other watchers that there were two killers, both with "silver smiles" (one being the late Van Bergen), or that the "silver smile" is coincidental and not that uncommon and that whoever the remaining living killer is is responsible for all of the murders?

Hubby thinks the dead body was Ruby (was that her name? the child Marcus was talking to ... not Joseph/Bernadette). 

Really into this show ... surprised I didn't read the book (or more likely I read it and have forgotten that I read it because that's my life these days) but at least it's all surprises for me ... bought this and the sequel for my Kindle but won't read them until the season is over (am wondering if they are making the sequel into a second season ... anyone know?)

[sugarbaker design]

22 minutes ago, PamelaMaeSnap said:

So, is the theory among other watchers that there were two killers, both with "silver smiles" (one being the late Van Bergen), or that the "silver smile" is coincidental and not that uncommon and that whoever the remaining living killer is is responsible for all of the murders?

Right now, I think it's safe to say Van Bergen is innocent (of the murders, classic red herring,) there's a serial killer at large known to have a 'silver smile', but we haven't seen what that means yet.  Stevie looked like he was looking at the devil when he was talking to the killer.

[Neurochick]

5 hours ago, PamelaMaeSnap said:

So, is the theory among other watchers that there were two killers, both with "silver smiles" (one being the late Van Bergen), or that the "silver smile" is coincidental and not that uncommon and that whoever the remaining living killer is is responsible for all of the murders?

Do we know if Van Bergen ever killed anybody?  All we saw was him attempting to roofie a boy he was with, but I don't think there was evidence of him being a killer.