S02.E15: The Car

[MoonMountain]

The opening scene was shot at a motel at the end of my block, and they shot it maybe a week or two ago. I remember driving by in the morning and seeing the crew set up and a couple of old cars in the lot, thinking, "Oh, looks like some kind of 90's thing." And last night when I started the episode I was like OMG it was my fave show!! Haha. Wish I would have seen the actors, but I think they were still setting up when I drove past.

My question is, and maybe I just missed the first part about Kate skipping class, but how did Jack find her at the bus stop? Was it coincidental that he was just driving by, or did the school contact him to say Kate wasn't in class that day and they didn't have an excuse, so he went out looking for her? (I suppose it doesn't really matter, it's not really a critical plot point going forward, I think it was just shown as another way to integrate the car)

Also yes, a little unrealistic for the car salesman to cut Jack a deal based off of his sob story. If he can't afford the car beyond normal negotiations, he's probably not going to get the car. Haha. But, I suppose they needed some way to work that speech in there. (Also, yet again, Jack makes a huge financial decision without Rebecca...ugh)

Kind of nice to have a break from the big Big 3, just saying. They're lovely, but can be exhausting. All of the younger versions are great.

Hurts my heart that Kate wants to (or did) give up Louie :( Remember how at the present day dog rescue she went to, she kept mentioning her baggage about dogs? I almost wonder if she takes his collar off and lets him go, rather than finding him a home, and they find him hit by a car or something. I'm sure I'm overthinking it, but it crossed my mind while watching this episode. That would certainly add another layer to the whole Jack/dog/guilt thing.

[SueB]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Maybe I missed it - but no talk about Kevin blaming Randall for not stopping Jack? I know they seemed okay(ish) by the end of the episode, but I can't imagine an accusation like that would be so easily forgotten (by either of them).

 

2 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Well, I thought Randall effectively countered that by saying he wasn't there, sort of taking the wind out of Kevin's sails a bit.  It's all part of his generalized bile that he has for Randall;  I note that he didn't say that to his mother or sister.  In the last few episodes, Kevin's bitterness comes out to play against Randall easily.

 

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

What struck me was Randall getting into the front passenger seat, without remark, discussion, or awkwardness. 

It wasn't about the watch for Kevin, it was about Randall acting like the "man of the house".  Clues:
- In a previous episode consoling Rebecca while Jack was at Miguels -- Kevin's comment about Randall not being Rebecca's husband.  So we already knew that not only did Kevin resent Rebecca (in his mind) loving Randall more, he felt Randall wanted that.  Not in a sexual way ('cause gross). But in a "Rebecca and Randall" are a team way.  Which would leave Kevin and Kate on the outs with their mother.
- Kevin sure noticed Randall getting into the front seat (and it's placed there for us to see him make this assumption as well). In ANY family with more than one kid, who gets to sit "shotgun" is often a debate. Most families have figured it out.  We rotated odd and even days.  The front seat has more legroom, you have access to the controls, etc. But they showed us Randall assuming the front seat on the way there and it seems like he felt it was his right/responsibility.  Later, when Kate is handed the urn, then Kate sits in the front seat.  Because she's holding Jack.  And that view at the end, you see BOTH Kevin and Randall are somewhat squished in the backseat with their needs. Kevin worse than Randall.  So, Randall taking the front seat is going to cause ire unless that had a pre-arranged agreement. On on funeral day?  That was symbolic and Kevin noticed it immediately.
- Randall spoke at the funeral.  Maybe Rebecca offered it to all three.  But Randall spoke.  And he had been crying a lot before.  So he sucked it up because (I suspect) he felt SOMEONE had to.
- Randall greeting Jack's boss.  With a handshake and a clasp on the arm (like Jack used to do).  He wasn't talking with friends. He was greeting adults in an adult-like fashion.

So I was thrilled when Rebecca told them both that neither had to be the man of the house. She KNEW that was what the argument was about (not the watch).  She knows those two compete constantly.  I don't, however, think it sticks.  I think Kevin blows out of there as soon as he graduates and Randall stays in "man of the house" mode.  There was an argument in S1 about that.  And Rebecca accused Kevin of abandoning her when Jack died (during Kevin's therapy). Note: I am not blaming Randall for "stepping up".  It's a reasonable thing to do and a form of coping mechanism.  So again, glad Rebecca tried to talk him out of it.  

And the watch?  Rebecca was too in shock to see that she needed to ensure each child had something special from Jack, mull it over, and bring them all together to explain who was getting what momento.  That Kevin already had the necklace probably would have factored in heavily.  And Randall is 17 freaking years old.  It didn't occur to him that it was too early to ask that question about getting Dad's watch.  So, the hurt happened.  It can be rectified (but I'm not sure it will). 

At this point, they are MOSTLY in shock but you can see starts of the stages of grief and the family (see Kubler Ross):
- Rebecca: Hopping between Denial and Bargaining. She's mostly floatin in shock but helping the family go on will center her.  She's not crying because she can't even touch that grief yet.  And definitely not in front of the kids.  Not at the funeral.  Thank you repressive mother-of-Rebecca. She's probably going to not go to anger for a while.  And when she does, it'll be at Jack.
- Kevin: Denial. He's floating like Rebecca.  He's not dealing with Jack's death. He's picking at everything BUT Jack's death. He's looking at what people are wearing, the annoyance of the tie, who is at the funeral. He's studiously AVOIDING that he is saying goodbye to his Dad.  He KNOWS Randall is right -- Kevin wasn't there when the family had a crisis.  Kevin is already in "flight" mode. He's got guilt over that - so of COURSE he blames Randall. Because he wants to blame Randall for every bad thing in his life and again, that is a "go to" emotion versus actual grief.  Plus he's lost his football identity.  The only time I saw him REALLY show grief was the nighttime visit when Rebecca was talking. Then it almost overwhelmed him.  
- Kate: Anger. She's so angry at herself for the dog.  It doesn't have to be rationale.  And yes she's grieving but she hasn't gotten past the anger at herself for Jack's death. But she is at least openly crying at the funeral.  She is IN the moment.  Kevin and Rebecca are not.  It's a blur for them.
- Randall: Bargaining/Anger.  If he just 'steps up', the family will be okay.  He's angry at Kevin for not being there.  He's going the stoic route and playing a role.  He's also crying and IN the moment but he's surviving with his new mission to help his mother survive this.

It's waaaaaaaaay too early for them to really be processing much but that's what I see.  As you all probably know, these stages have been disected and relabeled and you bounced around them versus progress through. But that's what I see.  And some people never get past denial or anger.  It becomes a great big pit of "don't go there" the longer they stay in that state.

Edited February 7, 2018 by SueB

[Violetgoblin6]

19 hours ago, mojoween said:

I didn’t cry Sunday night.  But my father’s funeral was December 26 and the kids at the wake got me.

Also Rebecca following the urn around because she wasn’t there when he died wrecked me because none of us were there when my dad died. I’m told it was instantaneous but still.  He died all alone.

And my god.  The things left behind like the coffee cup...this show is not at all cathartic.

In other, show news, Jack indulging Kate by letting her skip school to go see Atlantis Morissette is part of why she is the way she is.

This show continually trying to make us think they are outside in Pittsburgh in January is one of its biggest flaws.

Agree wholeheartedly about the winter in Pittsburgh thing. It truly took me out the story, continuously. They did such a great job on Bec's cancer scare in winter with the snow (I assume that scare was a few weeks before he died, that winter anyway) and Kate cutting school on what seemed to be a classic damp and rainy PA morning. But all the green in January! The trip back from the grocery store with green leaves, the funeral with lush green and no heavy coats, the day of the Super Bowl with Kate outside in a light dress and pretty trees. I'm in Philadelphia and that winter of 1998 was cold. Super Bowl Sunday was cold. I remember, believe it or not. 

This episode, however, got me like  Memphis. So many symbols and the way they directed and edited the funeral was perfect. From Rebecca's point of view, all blurred and skipping ahead, with flashes of cognition interspersed with numbness. Like they arrived and then the pastor was speaking and then it seemed time jumped and Miguel was speaking. I've been there. 

My favorite part: the bridge. I think that the show was originally named Across the Border (as a two parter) as the foursome were shown crossing the bridge into a different/new life without Jack. Literally (off to a concert, just mom and the kids) and very much figuratively. Dr. K's speech allowed Rebecca to feel strong enough in that moment to "cross the bridge" without "sturdy and superhero" Jack. Of course literally too. She was fearless crossing that bridge, unlike in 1989 or whenever. Good job show. Also the bridge looked authentically Pittsburgh. For once. 

I became enraged when Kate got up in the middle of the night with the dog. I thought for sure she was going to open the door and let Louie outside to run free. I'm curious to see what happens to him (maybe I'm not!) My mom said, "Kate, protect that dog with your life." 

Looking forward to seeing what life holds for the 4 of them in the first few years after his death. The cancer scare floored me. Well done. I felt her fear and I embarrassingly wish I'd had a Jack during my own health fears. Thought we'd get a flash forward of an old, old Rebecca circa 2045. Old Randall at her hospital bedside. Dan said more flash forwards coming.

The car dealership part was ridiculous. To me anyway. 

Kevin seemed so neutral throughout the whole episode. Well, except for his frustration with the tie and anger over the watch (um, I emphasized). Where are those airplanes? At the Pocono cabin? That said, Kate and Randall were not as hysterical as expected when the discovered that Jack died. I wonder if they will show Kevin's initial reaction? Probably.

Preferred this episode to the last one, which I got to late due to being a massive and devoted Eagles fan. 

Edited February 7, 2018 by Violetgoblin6
Had some more thoughts

[debraran]

29 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Something I was wondering:  Where was Kate during the driving lesson?  They're all the same age, so they all should be learning how to drive at the same time.  Unless Kate decided to get her licence at a later time?  

I would think 3 of them would be too much. My twins didn't like going with their Dad and the other in the car. They did with driver's ed since they lived in the same home for drop off. I thought the crack about girls etc with Kevin was a cheap shot and don't understand why the anger toward him. My husband would have liked that scene with Jack making them walk 5 miles home, he unfortunately caught the car sale monologue Jack had with salesman and just rolled his eyes. I've been trying this year to get him to watch, but the ER scene and car scene didn't help. (he worked in ER and car scene was over the top) I know he'd appreciate some shows, so I'll keep trying. : )

When you think of it, Kate was given the dog by Jack, she didn't pick it out, they threw the dog in to make the fire episode more dramatic. Having Jack go back in just for pics or something else would have had more people shaking their heads because it's stupid to risk your life for that. I hope Louie stays or finds a good home, but he has bonded with Kate.

Randall or Kevin could not have stopped Jack, he was determined, it was a grief filled thing to say, not really worthy of response.

Edited February 7, 2018 by debraran

[NutMeg]

3 hours ago, Bean421 said:

Kevin already had the necklace though. Is Randall allowed to have nothing unless Kevin approves? 

If Kevin didn't have a memento already it would be a different story but he has something too. 

Having received something "before" and getting a memento "after": both powerful, both needed, trust me.

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

How do you know she wasn't skipping classes?  She said she didn't have any tests, not that she didn't have any classes.  No big deal, I'm just wondering why so many people think that a typical day for Kate at school is just sitting around in study halls and watching TV.

How old do you have to be for that?  He was at least 50.  Which I'm creeping up on, so I'm not saying you're dead at 50. But, if he mostly listens to music for "his day," it doesn't seem odd that he wouldn't know who Alannis Morrisette was.

My mum (a trained soprano) always said that she liked the music we kids were listening too. It makes a lot of sense to me because I've discovered many artists thanks to my son, the same way he discovered some because I was listening to them. Nobody I know who likes music and/or has kids they are interested in stays in a bubble music wise. 

[Pallas]

7 hours ago, kassandra8286 said:

In the scene where Kate asks Rebecca how Jack died, Rebecca was still in shock and grieving, but I thought her demeanor also revealed some subconscious anger (towards Jack) and resentment (towards Kate). She didn't deny it was Kate's fault when Kate kept pointing out that Jack going back in to get the dog was what killed him. She just kept repeating "I don't know". I felt so bad for Kate in that scene, I felt like she desperately wanted her mom to give her a reason to believe it couldn't have been "her fault" but she didn't.  Yes, later at the tree, Rebecca emphatically told Kate not to blame herself and that Jack was a grown man who made his own choice but by then Kate had already internalized that she "killed her dad"  and it was too late for reassurances otherwise.

It seems to me that either Rebecca or the writers don't know what a "widowmaker" is: that it's not just a graphic description for a catastrophic heart attack. Dr. Bill Irwin's exposition didn't help; he too put the emphasis on smoke inhalation. Yet later that night, Rebecca cited the "widowmaker" to Miguel, and said "they" had called it that: clearly, staff at the hospital. Being told that Jack died by a specific, inevitable blow -- one that was simply triggered by the fire -- isn't the sort of still-credible, just slightly-comforting alternative you might invent on the spot, while still in shock. 

If Jack really died of a longstanding heart condition and his number was about to come up, Rebecca would have been reminding the kids and herself of that, many times each day. Especially when Kate...did or said anything. On the other hand, I'm not quite ready to believe that the writers didn't bother to get clear on what killed Jack. Were they so taken with the dire, Dickensian "widowmaker" that they forgot to find out what it was?  

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 2/7/2018 at 8:45 AM, ShadowFacts said:

Oh, definitely, people bury cremated remains in a cemetery, or place them in an above-ground crypt, but we know the Pearsons didn't do that, they scattered some and kept some.  I just was unfamiliar with having a cemetery service, then taking the ashes away from the cemetery.  The only thing I can think of is that Rebecca has a plot there for herself? 

Jack said he didn't want to be buried underground; he wanted to be outside. I doubt that he would have wanted part of himself to be trapped inside an urn as a keepsake, either.  It would be nice if someday Kate could let go of her extreme grief by scattering the rest of him.

I feel the family could have used wet wipes after scattering Jack's ashes with their bare hands. Instead, Rebecca got traces of Jack on the steering wheel, Kevin touched Randall, etc.

Finally, it bothered me when after leaving the reception, Kate was sitting in the front seat, the urn on her lap, but no seat belt, at least when Rebecca started to drive.

Edited February 8, 2018 by ItCouldBeWorse

[Violetgoblin6]

19 hours ago, Amethyst said:

Welp, I cried this time.  Especially when they all went to the tree.  Made a difference that this one wasn't hyped up like the Super Bowl episode.  

I was so glad that Rebecca had that conversation with Dr. K.  It was something she really needed to hear, from someone who understood her and Jack.  During the first few minutes, I was rolling my eyes because of course Jack made the car decision without talking to Rebecca.  Yeah, it's nice that he knew his family "belonged" in the Wagoneer, but it also made Rebecca look like the boring one again.  Rebecca needed to understand that as painful as it would be, she could hold the family together on her own.

I was sad to hear Kate give up the dog so easily, and even more so that Rebecca agreed with her.  Figure they were both still in shock.  But I was glad that Rebecca insisted that Jack's death wasn't Kate's fault, even if they both knew Kate wouldn't believe it.  Puts the earlier scenes between them in an interesting retrospective.

Anyone notice that Kevin didn't cry at all, during the funeral or when they scattered the ashes?  

Yes. I sure did. No crying and very, very stoic. Looking forward to seeing Kevin's initial reaction and his destroying the airplanes. Does Rebecca have the coffee cup in the present? Has anyone spotted it in previous episodes? 

[Trillian]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Not in the 80's either (Sutton). :)

Or the 70s.  I’m old.  ?

[Violetgoblin6]

11 hours ago, Badlands said:

The tickets said the Benedum Center. Bruce played there on his solo tour in 1996. Bruce did have a concert the night of Jack's funeral (1/31/98), but it was in New Jersey and wasn't billed as a Springsteen show, as it was a benefit concert he did with Bon Jovi and others for a slain police officer.

The original episode title was "Across the Border," which is a Springsteen song. They must have changed the title to "The Car" in the last few days.

Thanks! I was going to Google Springsteen concerts the night of Jan 26/27/28. 

[Clanstarling]

1 minute ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I don't think she has to blame Jack, either.  I would blame his heart condition. 

I don't know, maybe I'm cavalier about death but I don't really need to assign blame.  People die, it's as natural as birth and as inevitable, and there is rarely a culprit to me, besides fate.  It's sad when someone dies at 53 (or younger) but for me, blaming feels like ignoring that none of us is owed over 70 years on this earth.  

I can appreciate that. I like that attitude, though I would struggle with it.

Many would blame his heart condition on his choices/alcoholism, even if the smoke inhalation weren't a contributing factor. People tend to lay a lot of blame on others for both major and minor matters. 

[Katy M]

48 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I doubt that he would have wanted part of himself to be trapped inside an urn as a keepsake, either.  It would be nice if someday Kate could let go of her extreme grief by scattering the rest of him.

It's not like he knows.  But if scattering the rest of the ashes allows Kate to let go of her guilt and grief, then, yeah, I'm all for it.

[Empress1]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

Exactly. And that's what is confusing about that scene in general. Jack was acting like she was skipping school, like she was missing actual classes. Kate told him that she didn't have any exams that day, and for high school, exams are different than tests. So, what is it? Was Kate legitimately skipping school, or was it exam week where she wasn't missing anything? It wasn't a well written scene because I still don't know what the answer is. 

I guess all the writers had to do was just switched the word exams to tests, and there'd be no confusion as to Kate skipping school.

My vote goes to "she was cutting school" because she was acting caught. She clearly knew she'd done something wrong. We had exam week where nothing was going on at school except exams, so if you didn't have an exam there was no expectation to be on campus because ... be on campus to do what? I don't think I had a full day off but I definitely remember not having to be there until afternoon or being able to leave at midday because I only had one exam and there was literally nothing going on on campus except exams. My parents (who were stricter than Jack and Rebecca appear to be) would have the expectation that I wouldn't be at school at bye times during exam week. I think the writers were using "exams" and "tests" interchangeably and she was ditching a full day of classes on which no tests were scheduled.

[luna1122]

I hope Jack was joking about not knowing who alanis Morissette was. I hope he was just pulling kates leg. It's a pet peeve of mine when people only listen to the music that they grew up with. I'm old AF--aka about the age Jack was supposed to be when he died --but I never listen to classic rock or even most of the music I grew up listening to. I mean I still like it but I listened to it forever, I don't need to listen to it anymore. I don't tend to buy or listen to mainstream top 40 music much--- I'm more into alt/ Indie stuff-- but I definitely know who most of the artists who were at the Grammys the other night. Even my mom who's 78 knows who Ed Sheeran and Lady Gaga and pink and Bruno Mars are. Kind of hard to believe Jack wouldn't have heard Alanis' stuff coming out of Kate's room.

I don't seem to care at all why Kate was not in school that day. She was skipping class like almost everyone I know did at some point or another. Jack may have been a dork about current music but he was really cool-- cooler than most parents would have been-- taking Kate to get an autograph from her Idol. Wonder if he told Rebecca  about that?

 

Surely, with her name being what it was, someone would have played Kate some B-52s in her life, wouldn't they?

Edited February 8, 2018 by luna1122

[chocolatine]

2 hours ago, NutMeg said:

off topic, slightly, but when my brother died it helped to be able to share fun parts of him with people who had experienced them too; when my father died, there was only my mother left, and she didn't want to hear of any fun memories I had of my dad, because they had been apart for a while and (as it took me a while  to understand, she still mourned the end of their relationship more than his death). This show has made me realized that when I or my ex die, my son won't have anyone (other than maybe the other parent left, but that would be awkward in any case) with whom to reminisce the fun stuff. And it's a weird feeling, having lost a sibling I thought him being an only child, at least he wouldn't have to suffer that. I also never though my marriage would end (yes, I'm very naive), and therefore never considered how tough the future losses could be for him. 

That's why the Jewish tradition of sitting shiva is so comforting. The bereaved family stays home for a week after the funeral and friends/relatives/acquaintances/coworkers stop by with food and share fond memories of the deceased. The family gets to learn more about their loved one and all the people whose lives that person touched. It's cathartic and helps to get closure.

9 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

Surely, with her name being what it was, someone would have played Kate some B-52s in her life, wouldn't they?

Or Shiny Happy People by R.E.M. :)

Edited February 8, 2018 by chocolatine

[slasherboy]

21 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

And I know Kate is going through hell with her own guilt but getting rid of Louie was cruel. It wasn't his fault!

Do we know for sure that Louie is gone?

If I found my just-deceased husband's coffee cup in the car like Rebecca did, I'd put my lips on it for one last kiss.

[NutMeg]

29 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

That's why the Jewish tradition of sitting shiva is so comforting. The bereaved family stays home for a week after the funeral and friends/relatives/acquaintances/coworkers stop by with food and share fond memories of the deceased. The family gets to learn more about their loved one and all the people whose lives that person touched. It's cathartic and helps to get closure.

Or Shiny Happy People by R.E.M. :)

It is indeed a comforting tradition, and I wish we could all abide with it. I experienced something very similar, but only for a few days, and in a Moslem sitting, where the bereaved family was the one feeding visitors. The Jewish tradition seems kinder, in that the grieving family is being taken care of rather than having to care for others, but still, what I saw of the Moslem tradition wasn't that different, with the extended family making sure the dozens of visitors were fed and the grieving family left to share memories of the deceased with visitors.

Are the Sephardic and Ashkhenaz traditions the same?

[chocolatine]

1 minute ago, NutMeg said:

It is indeed a comforting tradition, and I wish we could all abide with it. I experienced something very similar, but only for a few days, and in a Moslem sitting, where the bereaved family was the one feeding visitors. The Jewish tradition seems kinder, in that the grieving family is being taken care of rather than having to care for others, but still, what I saw of the Moslem tradition wasn't that different, with the extended family making sure the dozens of visitors were fed and the grieving family left to share memories of the deceased with visitors.

Are the Sephardic and Ashkhenaz traditions the same?

Both Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews observe shiva, but I think Sephardic shivas also involve mourning customs that are local to their countries (e.g. Iran, Syria, Morocco, etc). I've only been to Ashkenazi ones and they've been completely secular, which is why I mentioned it - anyone can attend one, and you can have one for someone who isn't Jewish. It's more of a community tradition than a religious one.

[Eeksquire]

I know a lot of people complain about Rebecca and have since the beginning of the series, but this episode was the first that I found myself shocked at her behavior: it's the day of their father's funeral and you're HONKING THE CAR HORN for them to come out of the hotel?! I assumed that there was a time jump and they were late for school or something - when it became clear that she was hurrying them to the funeral I was so angry on behalf of the kids.  They're seventeen, they don't know why Rebecca wants to get there so early, they just lost their father and their house... it was too much for me.  That's the first time I really found myself disliking Rebecca.

[Mom2twoNonna2-3]

22 hours ago, J0nas3 said:

Did anybody catch where the Bruce concert was? I heard Rebecca say /something/ Center, and I was wondering where that was because the Igloo was Civic Arena.

The Benedum Center, He did play the Benedum Center in Sept. of 1996 which does not line up to this.

 

I felt like it was my fault my  mother died. We just hit the 6 year mark on Sunday. I asked her to come to my house for my grandson's 1st birthday. She was on her way to the bus station (the day before birthday) and her friend had a car accident. She died at the scene and the revived her. She lived 2 days until the day after his birthday. I'm just glad she didn't die on his birthday. I was with her. My father was alone, except his dog. I couldn't go in the room when I saw him laying in the ER dead. My grandmother is the one I bawled over leaving in the funeral home. I didn't really cry when my brother died (I was 15, he was 16). Didn't mean I didn't love him, though. I lost it 4 months later. So I don't fret over Kevin. And I instantly lost it when I heard one of my dear friends died of cancer. I didn't know she had been sick. I had moved away and couldn't reach her for over a year. We led busy lives so I wasn't worried. Her mother in law told me when I finally messaged her on facebook. 

[izabella]

2 hours ago, luna1122 said:

Surely, with her name being what it was, someone would have played Kate some B-52s in her life, wouldn't they?

That's exactly what I thought when Jack told her there she was the only Kate Pearson!

[SueB]

3 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I don't think she has to blame Jack, either.  I would blame his heart condition. 

I don't know, maybe I'm cavalier about death but I don't really need to assign blame.  People die, it's as natural as birth and as inevitable, and there is rarely a culprit to me, besides fate.  It's sad when someone dies at 53 (or younger) but for me, blaming feels like ignoring that none of us is owed over 70 years on this earth.  

It was her Dad and he died tragically.  It's natural to feel anger.  It's unreasonable IMO to expect a teen NOT to go through the normal stages of grieving (Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance).  

[chitowngirl]

2 hours ago, Empress1 said:

My vote goes to "she was cutting school" because she was acting caught. She clearly knew she'd done something wrong. We had exam week where nothing was going on at school except exams, so if you didn't have an exam there was no expectation to be on campus because ... be on campus to do what? I don't think I had a full day off but I definitely remember not having to be there until afternoon or being able to leave at midday because I only had one exam and there was literally nothing going on on campus except exams. My parents (who were stricter than Jack and Rebecca appear to be) would have the expectation that I wouldn't be at school at bye times during exam week. I think the writers were using "exams" and "tests" interchangeably and she was ditching a full day of classes on which no tests were scheduled.

In some schools, everyone has to be at school during exam week, whether or not you had an exam, because that way they know who is in the school. If kids are coming and going, you don’t know who’s there in case of emergency. 

[Pallas]

Like a lot of us here, I'm looking forward to Jack's family's coming to see him in the whole. Jack was brave and ingenious in helping everyone escape the fire (will Rebecca remember to tell Kevin of how Jack immediately thought of him, and in doing so, showed his only real sign of fear that night?). And after that, he then made a fatal mistake, one that seems equally in keeping with his character and personality.

Alcoholics tend to be impulsive, and frequently swing between self-doubt and grandiose ideas. Recovery may not make much of a dent in that, for all its other life-saving benefits. Jack's strength and courage that night, his leadership, and his one bad decision after all the critical good ones -- followed by what looks like his fatalism, as he sensed the cost -- are all who he was.

Maybe there will be a scene where the good doctor tells Rebecca that Jack was drunk one time he came by the office. And seemed to think Dr. K wouldn't notice. Or at least, that Jack came by to confess that he was drinking on the sly, and ask for advice about getting sober. 

When Rebecca told Dr. K that Jack was "fearless" and McRaney took that great, very long pause, I thought he was then going to say, "Jack wasn't fearless...he just hid that from you. Jack drank when he was afraid. That's what alcoholics do. That's what he was hiding. Not just the drinking." And remind her that whether Jack was sober or drinking, home or not, Rebecca had always been there.

[Jeddah]

52 minutes ago, chitowngirl said:

In some schools, everyone has to be at school during exam week, whether or not you had an exam, because that way they know who is in the school. If kids are coming and going, you don’t know who’s there in case of emergency. 

My high school was like that. If it was exam time and you didn’t have an exam, too bad. You still had to be there. It was considered skipping if you weren’t there. We all sat around and played cards all day because  we didn’t have work to do but we couldn’t leave.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Jeddah

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Eeksquire said:

I know a lot of people complain about Rebecca and have since the beginning of the series, but this episode was the first that I found myself shocked at her behavior: it's the day of their father's funeral and you're HONKING THE CAR HORN for them to come out of the hotel?! I assumed that there was a time jump and they were late for school or something - when it became clear that she was hurrying them to the funeral I was so angry on behalf of the kids.  They're seventeen, they don't know why Rebecca wants to get there so early, they just lost their father and their house... it was too much for me.  That's the first time I really found myself disliking Rebecca.

I thought it was in the morning and was annoyed and thinking how rude it was to disturb all the other people in the motel. After they got to the car, they said it was the afternoon - but still. 

[ScrapNini]

3 hours ago, chocolatine said:

That's why the Jewish tradition of sitting shiva is so comforting. The bereaved family stays home for a week after the funeral and friends/relatives/acquaintances/coworkers stop by with food and share fond memories of the deceased. The family gets to learn more about their loved one and all the people whose lives that person touched. It's cathartic and helps to get closure.

Or Shiny Happy People by R.E.M. :)

I feel relatively confident in saying that if Kate was listening to Alanis, she was also listening to REM; or maybe I am just speaking for myself. 

[chocolatine]

7 minutes ago, ScrapNini said:

I feel relatively confident in saying that if Kate was listening to Alanis, she was also listening to REM; or maybe I am just speaking for myself. 

Oh, I agree. I actually listened a lot more to New Adventures In Hi-Fi than I did to Jagged Little Pill. Shiny Happy People is an older song though (came out in 1990, I think), so I wondered if anyone would have played it for Kate when it first came out.

[Mrs Shibbles]

3 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Or Shiny Happy People by R.E.M. :)

 

Or Candy by Iggy Pop. 

 

I was thrown by Kate’s pronunciation of Alanis, rhyming it with Atlantis.  I always thought the ‘lan’ rhymes more with lawn than lan

Also, on the writers not being parents, how old were the kids in the flashback to the car dealership? Would they really have needed  a babysitter?

Edited February 8, 2018 by Mrs Shibbles

[breezy424]

Different schools have different rules.  When my oldest was in high school, you had to be there during midterms.  We moved to a different state and my youngest didn't have to be there.  All I know is that Kate looked 'guilty'. 

I love that Jack loved Springsteen.  And quite frankly I probably wouldn't know who Alanis was at that time.  Ok. Going to the Springsteen concert?  What stood out to me is that there would be an empty seat.  The one Jack would have been sitting in.....

On a side note, I think they're doing a much better job with the make up for 'older' Rebecca.  Well, except for that wig.  I have to say I'm kinda of amazed at what some people have stated about what a 67ish person should look or act like.  It's like they should be feeble or something.  Isn't Oprah 63?  Meryl Streep is 68.  I could go on.

With the popularity of this show, can they not go to the east coast and film some of these outdoor scenes?  Other shows do.  

Jack's death was so contrived.  This happened with the smoke alarm, and then the crock pot, then the dog, then the heart attack.  Trying too hard.  I also feel like they're trying to reinvent events from 'Thirty Something' and don't get me wrong, I liked that show.

[Cardie]

18 minutes ago, breezy424 said:

I also feel like they're trying to reinvent events from 'Thirty Something' and don't get me wrong, I liked that show.

Given that Ken Olin is one of the producers--and directed this episode--this is probably not a coincidence.

How do people know the writers aren't parents?

[Ohmo]

On 2/7/2018 at 10:19 AM, vixenbynight said:

All of Kevin's issues cannot totally be placed on Rebecca and Jack.

This is how I feel about Kate.  I've read several posts about Kate's guilt about Jack's death.  Lots of explanations about why she feels the way that she does about dogs, lots of explanations period, plus a few comments about things Rebecca should have done (continue to remind Kate that it wasn't her fault), etc.  All of that I can see as acceptable for teenage Kate and even young-adult Kate.  However, an explanation is not a solution, and there comes a time when explanations no longer cut it.  At this point, present-day Kate is almost 40 years old.  At this point, Kate's guilt is no longer Jack's problem or Rebecca's problem.  It's Kate's problem, and I use the word "problem" intentionally.  Kate is one screwed up person at the moment, and she's doing an excellent job of screwing herself up.  Rebecca's no longer in charge of that and neither is Jack.  Kate is now choosing to let guilt destroy her life.

Before you all might be tempted to toss eggs at me, I have some experience with this from the other side.  Many years ago, something happened to me that someone in my family remains convinced was this person's fault.  What happened has affected my life, but it wasn't this person's fault.  It was a fluke, an act of God, or whatever wording you might want to use, but it was not this person's fault.  I've told this person that until I'm blue in the face.  So have several family members and a few therapists that this person has talked to.  Yes, we all know that the explanation is guilt, but at some point, the person has to move beyond the guilt.  I can do nothing more.  In Kate's case, neither can Jack or Rebecca.  It is not up to them to do anything more.  Kate needs to do more than this constant martyrdom because when she behaves that way, trust me as I speak from experience, all she's doing is hurting herself.  (A fact that I remind the person in my own situation when this person acts similarly to Kate.)  I'm all for compassion and I love this person, but like Kate's situation, my situation has also spanned decades.  After awhile, compassion needs to include a dose of reality.  Kate's not making Jack's life any better with her behavior.  He's already dead.  This person isn't improving my life by acting similarly to Kate.  All that's happening is both Kate and this person are messing up their own lives, and that's going to continue to happen until they decide to make a different choice.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Ohmo

[Dowel Jones]

On 2/6/2018 at 7:55 PM, BoogieBurns said:

So, two things. One you may already know and the other you don't. 

1) I have a crippling fear of bridges and have to close my eyes any time someone drives me over one.

You should come out to the San Francisco Bay and drive over the Carquinez Straits Bridge (I-680).  That thing scares me to this day.  It's incredibly high for the ship traffic and everything around is visible.

23 hours ago, pennben said:

 

Also, I feel the crockpot needs a rebuttal episode if we are giving an episode to the car, it only seems fair. 

Yeah, I can see the Board of Directors at Crockpot grousing at their meeting:  "WTF?  We're hated by the entire country, but this show gives Jeep a full hour for their POS Wagoneer?"

11 hours ago, screenaddict said:

  But for family outings, Jack was always the driver.

The reverse is also true.  I have almost always been the driver, and it's somewhat unnerving to get into a passenger seat and ride around without control.  Just me.

10 hours ago, Trillium said:

Oh lord, don’t give the writers any ideas that we need a watch origination story! LOL. 

Paging Quentin Tarantino...

[ElectricBoogaloo]

13 hours ago, memememe76 said:

Kate is such a blank, relatively speaking. Does she go to school? She waitresses. She sits in a car in front of her old house and binge eats. She did have a job, where she may have been in love with her boss. For me, Kate is best when she is chatty and really engaged with other people, like she was with Jami Getz.

In the episode where she went on a date with the married guy (he was a customer at the diner where she was a waitress), she mentioned that she was taking night classes at community college. She didn't say what kind of classes though, so pretty vague.

6 hours ago, chitowngirl said:

In some schools, everyone has to be at school during exam week, whether or not you had an exam, because that way they know who is in the school. If kids are coming and going, you don’t know who’s there in case of emergency. 

And if you go to a public school, they want kids in class whenever possible because daily attendance = state funding.

5 hours ago, Mrs Shibbles said:

I was thrown by Kate’s pronunciation of Alanis, rhyming it with Atlantis.  I always thought the ‘lan’ rhymes more with lawn than lan

Alanis Morissette pronounces her name to rhyme with Atlantis. You can hear her say it here at the very beginning of her latest podcast:

[debraran]

Anyone cringing at too many "forward" episodes? http://ew.com/tv/2018/02/06/this-is-us-creator-flash-forwards/

I was looking for actress's name who played Tess, this one minute scene was cute, but since no one knows what the world will be in 15-20 years, I like it better in the past.

 

3 hours ago, Ohmo said:

This is how I feel about Kate.  I've read several posts about Kate's guilt about Jack's death.  Lots of explanations about why she feels the way that she does about dogs, lots of explanations period, plus a few comments about things Rebecca should have done (continue to remind Kate that it wasn't her fault), etc.  All of that I can see as acceptable for teenage Kate and even young-adult Kate.  However, an explanation is not a solution, and there comes a time when explanations no longer cut it.  At this point, present-day Kate is almost 40 years old.  At this point, Kate's guilt is no longer Jack's problem or Rebecca's problem.  It's Kate's problem, and I use the word "problem" intentionally.  Kate is one screwed up person at the moment, and she's doing an excellent job of screwing herself up.  Rebecca's no longer in charge of that and neither is Jack.  Kate is now choosing to let guilt destroy her life.

 

I feel the same way. I know they picked Chrissy to play Kate and she's great but they knew the story line would be based on a big part that Kate had a small weight issue when she was young but also had a coddling father who gave in to her, made her more health conscience mom and doctor seem like "bad cop" and never addressed other issues . To blame her Mom for not giving her what her dad did, she should have outgrown that a long time ago.  Everyone supposedly watched Kate spiral and make her dad a God almost and blame a guilt that wasn't totally rational on all her woes.  Kate is lucky to have Toby, a guy that sees her under all her issues but it grows old to keep hearing about how she killed her dad at 37. Does she ever think or talk to her dad and wonder how sad he would be that half her life has been hurting herself because of his death?  Kevin wants to be a good man, he'll keep trying, his therapy hopefully helped but Kate is not an endearing character because she pulls the weight issue as a shield too. It just gets old on TV because they made that her soul. We don't know much about Rebecca and her past but Kate seemed to be weight and music and Jack wanted her to try her wings with that.

I hope next season we see more growth with Kate but I know Chrissy has to decide if she wants to lose weight and that will effect the script with that plot line. Therapy though I hope we see soon.

[luna1122]

7 hours ago, breezy424 said:

 

I love that Jack loved Springsteen. 

I was ranking on Jack for not liking/knowing newer music when it occurred to me that my parents are approx. Jack's age (or the age he would have been, had he lived) and they sure weren't listening to Springsteen. My dad pretty much only likes ragtime, and my mom never listens to anything but Elvis Presley. My brother and I were the Springsteen fans. I woulda thought it was cool if they'd liked him. they just both think he can't sing.

7 hours ago, breezy424 said:

On a side note, I think they're doing a much better job with the make up for 'older' Rebecca.  Well, except for that wig.  I have to say I'm kinda of amazed at what some people have stated about what a 67ish person should look or act like.  It's like they should be feeble or something.  Isn't Oprah 63?  Meryl Streep is 68.  I could go on.

I was about to argue that Streep was 63, but I am wrong! Hard to think that she's nearly 70. I recently saw The Post and tho she was made up to look older than she does in real life, I also marveled a little at a scene where she's traversing a staircase with more ease than I can, and I'm considerably younger. Mandy's older Rebecca doesn't look late 60s, but lots of folks who ARE late 60s don't either....so maybe that's just what late 60s looks like!

7 hours ago, breezy424 said:

With the popularity of this show, can they not go to the east coast and film some of these outdoor scenes?  Other shows do.  

Jack's death was so contrived.  This happened with the smoke alarm, and then the crock pot, then the dog, then the heart attack.  Trying too hard.  I also feel like they're trying to reinvent events from 'Thirty Something' and don't get me wrong, I liked that show.

Yeah, it's very 30something. I loved that show but it got soapy AF. This one is even soapier.

 

13 hours ago, chocolatine said:

That's why the Jewish tradition of sitting shiva is so comforting. The bereaved family stays home for a week after the funeral and friends/relatives/acquaintances/coworkers stop by with food and share fond memories of the deceased. The family gets to learn more about their loved one and all the people whose lives that person touched. It's cathartic and helps to get closure.

 

I can see how that would be comforting for many, but as an introvert who gets drained of energy after an hour at any social gathering and doesn't answer the door unless I have specifically invited someone over...that sounds like a nightmare to me. Altho I probably would reconsider if people were bringing me food.

[Ohiopirate02]

While I am glad and frankly not surprised that Jack is a Springsteen fan, I wonder how the writers/producers chose the song to play.  Lucky Town is not one of Bruce's better known albums which is great to show that Jack remained a fan well into the 90s.  If I had to choose a song from that album to personify Jack, I would have gone with "Living Proof" over "My Beautiful Reward." 

[Biggie B]

On 2/6/2018 at 10:28 PM, mojoween said:

Oh and about the coffee cup.  I’m not saying that I would have kept that cup as a memento for 20 years because it was one of the last things my husband touched...

but I'm not saying I wouldn’t, either.

One of my co-workers was killed in a car accident back in September. Her office is untouched. A bottle of half-full Vitamin Water is still sitting on her desk. 

[mansonlamps]

4 hours ago, debraran said:

Anyone cringing at too many "forward" episodes? http://ew.com/tv/2018/02/06/this-is-us-creator-flash-forwards/

I was looking for actress's name who played Tess, this one minute scene was cute, but since no one knows what the world will be in 15-20 years, I like it better in the past.

 

I feel the same way. I know they picked Chrissy to play Kate and she's great but they knew the story line would be based on a big part that Kate had a small weight issue when she was young but also had a coddling father who gave in to her, made her more health conscience mom and doctor seem like "bad cop" and never addressed other issues . To blame her Mom for not giving her what her dad did, she should have outgrown that a long time ago.  Everyone supposedly watched Kate spiral and make her dad a God almost and blame a guilt that wasn't totally rational on all her woes.  Kate is lucky to have Toby, a guy that sees her under all her issues but it grows old to keep hearing about how she killed her dad at 37. Does she ever think or talk to her dad and wonder how sad he would be that half her life has been hurting herself because of his death?  Kevin wants to be a good man, he'll keep trying, his therapy hopefully helped but Kate is not an endearing character because she pulls the weight issue as a shield too. It just gets old on TV because they made that her soul. We don't know much about Rebecca and her past but Kate seemed to be weight and music and Jack wanted her to try her wings with that.

I hope next season we see more growth with Kate but I know Chrissy has to decide if she wants to lose weight and that will effect the script with that plot line. Therapy though I hope we see soon.

I think Kate had more than a small weight issue when she wad young as evidenced by the actress playing kid (not teen) Kate.  They specifically mention that teen Kate had gone on a strict diet and lost enough weight to wear that size 8 (I think) dress to the dance, but that appears to have been a brief period in her life when she wasn't overweight.  It seems to have been a lifelong battle for her in my opinion.

[Ohiopirate02]

8 minutes ago, mansonlamps said:

I think Kate had more than a small weight issue when she wad young as evidenced by the actress playing kid (not teen) Kate.  They specifically mention that teen Kate had gone on a strict diet and lost enough weight to wear that size 8 (I think) dress to the dance, but that appears to have been a brief period in her life when she wasn't overweight.  It seems to have been a lifelong battle for her in my opinion.

I agree.  Also, we saw that teenage Kate lost weight, but we have not seen how.  She very well could have resorted to some form of extreme dieting that borders on an eating disorder.  Kate did seem to keep her size a secret from Rebecca, so an eating disorder would not be out of the realm of possibility.

[Jeddah]

5 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

And if you go to a public school, they want kids in class whenever possible because daily attendance = state funding.

In lower income areas some schools want everyone to be there so students with Free or Reduced lunch can eat everyday. Requiring all students to be there is a way to do that without singling out those kids.

[Baltimore Betty]

1 hour ago, Biggie B said:

One of my co-workers was killed in a car accident back in September. Her office is untouched. A bottle of half-full Vitamin Water is still sitting on her desk. 

Thus proves, mourning a loss has no rules, no rhyme or reason. 

No matter when Jack died, it will affect each family member differently forever, it's been 23 years since my brother died and sometimes it catches me like it just happened.  

My only beef with the unseen until now conversations with Jack and family is that the writers can do whatever they want with him, no matter what, like if Rebecca is pissed at him for never replacing the toilet paper or forgetting to give her a phone message. 

I guess we will have Saint Jack for here on out.

[ShadowFacts]

9 hours ago, Ohmo said:

This is how I feel about Kate.  I've read several posts about Kate's guilt about Jack's death.  Lots of explanations about why she feels the way that she does about dogs, lots of explanations period, plus a few comments about things Rebecca should have done (continue to remind Kate that it wasn't her fault), etc.  All of that I can see as acceptable for teenage Kate and even young-adult Kate.  However, an explanation is not a solution, and there comes a time when explanations no longer cut it.  At this point, present-day Kate is almost 40 years old.  At this point, Kate's guilt is no longer Jack's problem or Rebecca's problem.  It's Kate's problem, and I use the word "problem" intentionally.  Kate is one screwed up person at the moment, and she's doing an excellent job of screwing herself up.  Rebecca's no longer in charge of that and neither is Jack.  Kate is now choosing to let guilt destroy her life.

That's very well said.  In AA circles they used to call this stinkin' thinkin'.  The terminology might be different now, but it means negative thinking that becomes entrenched and a person has to work at recognizing and reversing.  Nowadays, cognitive behavioral therapy gets at this.  In Kate's case I don't think it's a self-help or support group project anymore, it's been too many years and she can't just think that now that she's found Toby he will fill some hole. 

[ZeroDiscipline]

18 hours ago, ChicksDigScars said:

Reminds me of when I was a teenager and my friend and I went to Summerfest in Milwaukee to see Hall and Oates (the 80's, when they were in their MTV phase and were HUGE).  My grandmother asked how we liked the "Hauling Oates" concert.

Ha, I went to Lollapalooza at Alpine Valley in 1992, and while I was gone, a guy I liked called the house, and my mom answered (ugh! Damn you, life before cellphones!) She told him I was at "The Lolly Palootzka".

[ZeroDiscipline]

14 hours ago, slasherboy said:

If I found my just-deceased husband's coffee cup in the car like Rebecca did, I'd put my lips on it for one last kiss.

I was so afraid she was going to do that and then smell whiskey!

[Bethanne]

13 hours ago, Pallas said:

Like a lot of us here, I'm looking forward to Jack's family's coming to see him in the whole. Jack was brave and ingenious in helping everyone escape the fire (will Rebecca remember to tell Kevin of how Jack immediately thought of him, and in doing so, showed his only real sign of fear that night?). And after that, he then made a fatal mistake, one that seems equally in keeping with his character and personality.

My husband and I were talking about this last night. Being parents of teenagers, you NEVER know for certain if they stay where they say they are staying. There have been a few times where my son was planning to stay at a friends house and then in the morning I find him snoring in his bed. He's quieter when he sneaks in than when he sneaks, out. ;) That's the part I just can't suspend disbelief on--I just have to think that parents like Jack and Rebecca would have to visually confirm that Kevin wasn't in his bed. 

12 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I hate 'curb honkers' and at a motel, it's doubly obnoxious. 

Agreed. Although I am embarrassed to say that until the kids walked out I didn't connect that they were at the hotel where they were staying. Something about her looking at the tickets in her car and then honking like she was so annoyed briefly made my weird mind think that we had fast forwarded in time a bit and she was meeting someone via the 90s equivalent of Craigslist to sell the Springsteen tickets. 

2 hours ago, Biggie B said:

One of my co-workers was killed in a car accident back in September. Her office is untouched. A bottle of half-full Vitamin Water is still sitting on her desk. 

That is so sad. I'm terribly sorry for your loss. We lost a beloved coworker tragically in a motorcycle accident about a year ago and his presence seems to be all over our building. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 hour ago, Jeddah said:

In lower income areas some schools want everyone to be there so students with Free or Reduced lunch can eat everyday. Requiring all students to be there is a way to do that without singling out those kids.

Even in non-low income areas, public schools still want to keep daily attendance rates high because that determines the amount of money they receive from state funding. Even in wealthy areas, public schools want high attendance for that reason. 

[Katy M]

31 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Yeah, that's why I assumed Rebecca had literally just gotten off the phone with Kevin, in her bedroom.  I would not trust the info from some call that took place earlier.  

She couldn't have literally just gotten off the phone with Kevin, regardless of where the phone was because she was sound asleep.  Jack told her to wake up.  I'm going to assume neither of them was looking at their watches at the time, and most people don't know how long they've been asleep when they've just woken up.  So, she already knew she hadn't "just" gotten off the phone with Kevin, and since we know she was stretching the truth about that, it doesn't seem odd that she was referring to the call in the kitchen before she went up to bed.  Plus, we also know that Kevin snuck out to a party, so it doesn't seem likely that he was making or receiving multiple calls from home.

[ShadowFacts]

I think the Jack we've been shown would have gone into the basement to make sure Kevin wasn't there.  The kid could have had a fight with Sophie or felt bad about how he had left, just changed his mind for any number of reasons.  It's a little bit unbelievable, like not having all the Pearsons go by ambulance to the hospital to be checked. 

[breezy424]

44 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I think the Jack we've been shown would have gone into the basement to make sure Kevin wasn't there.  The kid could have had a fight with Sophie or felt bad about how he had left, just changed his mind for any number of reasons.  It's a little bit unbelievable, like not having all the Pearsons go by ambulance to the hospital to be checked. 

At the very least have Jack say when he came out the front door that he 'had' to make sure that Kevin wasn't in the house.  As a parent, I would find that very believable.  Just another example of thoughtless writing.