S02.E04: House By The Lake

[CofCinci]

1 hour ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Did David actually call 911 and hang up? I thought if you did that, then 911 would still send someone out to investigate.

I think that is a more recent procedure (probably because of situations like this one). 

[TexasGal]

19 hours ago, AttackTurtle said:

That was awful.  You know what’s going to happen, but still hope that it will be different.

The actor playing David reminded me of a young Andrew McCarthy and I thought he was fabulous.

I came here to say the same about Andrew McCarthy.  Who was my super Brat Pack movie crush so this was doubly upsetting for me.  Because obviously it’s about me, hah!

I never would have guessed from Glee that Darren Criss could be such a good psychopath.  Wow.

[truthaboutluv]

This was simultaneously the best and the worst episode. The worst because since this is based on real life events, I spent the whole episode tense and sad knowing that David was not going to escape and would eventually be murdered. That said, as sad and depressing as the episode was, this was Darren's best performance in the season so far.

Edited February 9, 2018 by truthaboutluv

[LennieBriscoe]

And THAT'S the mark of a great show: debate; interpretations; discussion; persuasion.

As a long-time reader of True Crimes: Murder Division, I find the entire "American Crime Story" series captivating!

[Rubyslippahz]

I was interested in this episode because I lived in Minneapolis when it happened.   It all came back to me from news stories at the time that the dog was named Printz although in real life it was a Dalmatian.  

Cody Fern is a good actor, at first I was skeptical because the real David (or the most circulated pic of him) was handsomer and less boyish looking.  But Fern portrayed the shock of witnessing Jeff Trails brutal murder so well.   I don't really buy the portrayal of David being so conflicted that he would not jump through that window to escape.  But is see the writers had to be inventive because so much of what exactly happened in the time between Jeffs murder and David's murder is unknowable.    I do strongly doubt the 911 hangup call occurred-- even in 1997 police would have been able to trace that back and I've never seen that reported?

As someone mentioned above, East Rush Lake in Chisago County where David was shot was only about a one hour drive from David's downtown Minneapolis loft although the episode gave an impression of a long journey.  

 

The Andrew character was so very punchable as he was singing Pump Up the Jam in the Jeep. 

Edited February 9, 2018 by Rubyslippahz

[SarahPrtr]

A lot of people are wondering why David didn't fight back, but it's actually not as instinctual as people think.  You think that by going along with the attacker, you won't get hurt as much.  Also, there's the learned helplessness.  I was beaten savagely as a child with hundreds of people watching and nobody did a damn thing.  You'd think all those people against one attacker would be no match, but it didn't happen.  They just stood around watching, and afterwards, nobody came up to me to see if I was okay and we all just went on with our day like nothing happened.  Not everyone is a fighter and just because someone is attacking them, doesn't mean that they'll automatically fight back.  It doesn't come naturally for a lot of people.

[Shadow Wave]

13 hours ago, Blakeston said:

The writer of the episode told Vanity Fair that when David chose not to escape from the bathroom window, the point they were trying to make was that America in 1997 was so intimidating for a gay man that it wasn't much better than life on the road with a murderer. But I don't think the episode got that across very well. David was thriving at an enviable job in a fairly gay-friendly city, and was out to at least one of his colleagues who didn't seem to have any problem with it. He was even out to his macho father.

This. Minneapolis in 1997 was not exactly Teheran. And, according to the Washington Post: "After graduating from the University of Minnesota-Duluth, Madson earned a master's degree in architecture from the university's main campus in Minneapolis and he won the President's Award for a traveling exhibit on AIDS. In 1994 he was a guest lecturer on assisted living for people with AIDS at Harvard." So it doesn't seem he was very closeted. 

Another reminder that we're not watching a documentary.

[stcroix]

7 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

He absolutely had a great chance to escape, but Cunanan kept playing mind games with him.  Would the police believe David?  Would David end up in jail?  How many years?  That had to be running through his head.  That said, Cunanan was very sloppy in letting David get so far away from him in public.  I was shocked when Cunanan didn't follow David into the bathroom.   David could have written a message on the bathroom wall.  Maybe David sees someone in the bathroom and tells that person about Cunanan. 

Cunanan did like to feel his power over David by playing mind games.  Since David stayed with him for so many days it makes me wonder if Andrew didn't threaten him with killing his parents to keep him from running.  I could totally see him saying," I wonder how your dad would welcome me, a friend of his sons, into his home for a visit.....?" Or something like that.  Put the idea into Davids head that what had happened to Jeff could be waiting for his dad...  I could see David feeling trapped and staying with Andrew to protect his parents while desperately trying to figure out what to do.  I though the actor who played David showed all the range of emotions so wonderfully!  It's been an hour since I watched it and I'm still feeling anxious and shook up. 

[CeeBeeGee]

13 minutes ago, stcroix said:

Cunanan did like to feel his power over David by playing mind games.  Since David stayed with him for so many days it makes me wonder if Andrew didn't threaten him with killing his parents to keep him from running.  I could totally see him saying," I wonder how your dad would welcome me, a friend of his sons, into his home for a visit.....?" Or something like that.  Put the idea into Davids head that what had happened to Jeff could be waiting for his dad...  I could see David feeling trapped and staying with Andrew to protect his parents while desperately trying to figure out what to do.  I though the actor who played David showed all the range of emotions so wonderfully!  It's been an hour since I watched it and I'm still feeling anxious and shook up. 

I personally am so upset and sad over these victims. Like, after last week's episode I went through this whole soul-searching thing, asking myself if I should be watching this, is it right to watch TV like this. I finally decided I should at least bear witness to the suffering these people experienced. If they had to experience this, this horror, this torture, this nihilistic degradation and destruction by a work-shy grifter and loser, a pathological liar and narcissist, at the very least I could bear witness.

Poor Jeff. Poor David. It's just all so awful and sad.

[stcroix]

23 minutes ago, CeeBeeGee said:

I personally am so upset and sad over these victims. Like, after last week's episode I went through this whole soul-searching thing, asking myself if I should be watching this, is it right to watch TV like this. I finally decided I should at least bear witness to the suffering these people experienced. If they had to experience this, this horror, this torture, this nihilistic degradation and destruction by a work-shy grifter and loser, a pathological liar and narcissist, at the very least I could bear witness.

Poor Jeff. Poor David. It's just all so awful and sad.

I know exactly what you mean.  I used to really enjoy true crime novels.  I loved how the detectives figured it all out, I especially liked Ann Rules writing.  But I found myself feeling sick from it all after a few years.  So many senseless killings, so many  young people being senselessly tortured.  I can't stand to think of it now after watching the show tonight!  The older I get the more things like that are affecting me, along with becoming super soft hearted about animals being hurt :(   But I'm going to watch this series.  I've got to see what started the whole mess.  If it's from an abusive childhood I'm going to be sick, I know.  So many murderers were normal little innocent children who were abused by sick parents or other adults.  Ugh... I hate to think about what's going on out there right now!  :( 

[Sarah D. Bunting]

Quote

We were told that the new look is NO BELTS with jeans, tops tucked in. 

I do not remember this AT ALL and we are always harping on the look on Again With This, because the Bev Niners do it constantly, especially Steve. The More You Knooowww

[Miles]

I guess it's important to remember that they are making a lot of assumptions here. Maybe David really was so enamored with Cunanan that he willingly went with him, or Cunanan threatened him with the gun in his pocket the whole time and just nobody noticed.

That being said, this scenario seems plausible. I didn't quite understand it at first, but if you think about it in the historical context it becomes clearer. The police think you are a disgusting faggot. Why wouldn't they think you just decided to kill that guy? Later at trail, the jury of your "peers" would think the same. They might absolutely convict you for something you haven't done. It wouldn't be the first time.

Even though or maybe because I knew that David was going to be murdered, because a lot of reviewers have spoiled it, by talking about Cunanan's first two victims a lot, this episode was relly hard to watch. I had to skip over some parts. That probably means that it was extremely well made, but boy can I not handle that stuff at the moment.

 

22 hours ago, Blakeston said:

The more I think about this episode, the more I'm disappointed in it. It could have been a fascinating look at how Stockholm Syndrome works - but David never appeared to have Stockholm Syndrome.

Stockholm Syndrom isn't actually a psychological diagnoses and even as it is understood in pop culture it very rarely happens. Usually hostages don't identify with the hostage takers. Sometimes, as was the case in Stockholm, the hostage takers just treat their hostages very well and it's objectively more dangerous for the hostages that the police might go in guns blazing and kill them in the process.

 

16 hours ago, VLASquared said:

The facts are even more confusing than what we saw dramatized. The official story is that Andrew and David were together for 6 days and that David’s body was found the day after he died. There is some speculation that Andrew headed toward Chicago and then turned back. But the book this series is based on suggests that David died several days earlier. It’s just another mystery in this sad story.

But wouldn't time of death be easily established? Or was forensic science not there yet, back in the 90s? It would certainly make more sense if they hadn't been together for that many days.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Miles

[CofCinci]

Also, there is the possibility that David did not know Andrew planned to murder Jeff.  David could have walked in on Jeff’s murder and Andrew claimed it as self-defense. After all, AC is a master a lying and manipulating people.  I imagine AC threw every psychological manipulation at David in his arsenal. 

[panthergirl13]

I guess it's just me, but I hated this episode. I thought Fern's acting was atrocious starting with the first scene. I honestly thought he was rehearsing what he was going to say to someone on the phone (as you do on TV) but no...it was the real conversation. Same with the cop. Horrid acting and terrible writing and procedural work in those scenes. What a mess. 

I think Darren Criss is doing an amazing job so I'll stick it out (I also haven't read the VF article so I don't know everything that's going to happen), but this week I was checking the time constantly and couldn't believe the episode wasn't 3 1/2 hours once it finally ended. Very sad for the real people involved of course, but wow... this was a trainwreck for me.

[Spike]

Just saw Fern is getting a sizable role on House of Cards. 

Edited February 9, 2018 by Spike

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's Previously.TV's EPIC OLD-SCHOOL RECAP of the episode!

One For The Road

American Crime Story heads to Minneapolis for the ends of Jeff Trail's and David Madson's journeys in Sarah D. Bunting's old-school recap of S02.E04.

[MaryWebGirl]

13 hours ago, stcroix said:

I know exactly what you mean.  I used to really enjoy true crime novels.  I loved how the detectives figured it all out, I especially liked Ann Rules writing.  But I found myself feeling sick from it all after a few years.  So many senseless killings, so many  young people being senselessly tortured.  I can't stand to think of it now after watching the show tonight!  The older I get the more things like that are affecting me, along with becoming super soft hearted about animals being hurt :(   But I'm going to watch this series.  I've got to see what started the whole mess.  If it's from an abusive childhood I'm going to be sick, I know.  So many murderers were normal little innocent children who were abused by sick parents or other adults.  Ugh... I hate to think about what's going on out there right now!  :( 

I liked Ann Rule too, and one thing she and I think this show do well when telling these stories is keep a lot of focus on the victims. I feel like especially the last two episodes Andrew was almost a side character, and our focus was with the Lee and David. It's one thing for a TV show to highlight an interesting, glamorous person like Gianni Versace, but they also showed two fairly average men as the unique humans they were. In the short time we saw Jeff he was shown as smart and interesting. And even with more tertiary characters to the story like Lee's wife and David's dad they are portrayed thoughtfully.

An obvious exception is the caretaker at the cemetery, but maybe that was a choice by the show since he wasn't targeted by Andrew, just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Edited February 9, 2018 by MaryWebGirl

[Jazzhands]

On 2/8/2018 at 1:16 AM, hoodooznoodooz said:

I thought he looked like Andrew McCarthy and Dax Shepherd. He's a better actor than Andrew McCarthy.

Maybe he didn't try to intervene while Andrew was attacking Jeff because he was in shock. It was gruesome what he was watching happening to his friend.

Why did David suddenly want to return to the loft with Andrew and Prints when he saw the mom and her son? Did he think Andrew might hurt them? They had passed other people outdoors, no?

I liked everyone mangling Andrew's last name. 

I thought the actor playing David reminded me of Dax Shepherd and someone, but I wasn’t seeing Andrew McCarthy.  It finally hit me today — William Moseley from the Chronicles of Narnia movies and The Royals, another of my trashy favorites. 

[Glade]

22 hours ago, Blakeston said:

It's certainly not the fault of any of the victims.

But the purpose of the scene in the bathroom with the broken window was to show us that David had a good shot at escape, and chose not to take it. Not because he was terrified of Cunanan, but because he decided he'd rather take his chances with Andrew than be on his own.

I disagree--it looked to me like he realized at the last minute that he had no actual way to escape--the window was too small, covered by broken glass, and it would be really difficult to maneuver himself through it.  That's certainly how I would have responded.  He was paralyzed by fear and anxiety, constantly going back and forth, believing AC's blackmail, experiencing shame about what his parents would think, fearing jail, fearing Andrew, freezing and then trying to run and then freezing again.  He was heavily traumatized and not thinking rationally, so no, I don't think he made a conscious choice to stick with Andrew.  It is victim blaming to try to claim he could have escaped.  How each of us reacts to trauma is individual and based on so many factors in our temperament and brain chemistry and personal history, so there is no "you could have." 

 

It really reminded me of the Amanda Knox case when the police were coming up with the story that "when the homosexuals were finished with their perverse sexual acts, they decided they needed more; they needed murder."  Homophobia is definitely the second killer here, it's what keeps many gay victims of domestic violence silent. 

Edited February 9, 2018 by Glade

[jnymph]

14 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

I personally am so upset and sad over these victims. Like, after last week's episode I went through this whole soul-searching thing, asking myself if I should be watching this, is it right to watch TV like this. I finally decided I should at least bear witness to the suffering these people experienced. If they had to experience this, this horror, this torture, this nihilistic degradation and destruction by a work-shy grifter and loser, a pathological liar and narcissist, at the very least I could bear witness.

Poor Jeff. Poor David. It's just all so awful and sad.

I hear you.   My brain went thru a similar thought process.  

What tears me apart is thinking;  I bet what the victims went through is even worse than what is portrayed.  : (    May they be resting peacefully in God's hands.  :(   

I had to FF thru most of the first 10 mins.  I could not bear the tension.   I really thought he was going to kill the dog.   Was a relief that at the very least Printz made it out alive.

I really loved that David's first glimpse in the afterlife was having coffee with his Dad.  Was beautifully done.

Edited February 9, 2018 by jnymph

[Rubyslippahz]

5 hours ago, CofCinci said:

Also, there is the possibility that David did not know Andrew planned to murder Jeff.  David could have walked in on Jeff’s murder and Andrew claimed it as self-defense. After all, AC is a master a lying and manipulating people.  I imagine AC threw every psychological manipulation at David in his arsenal. 

You make a good point.   I believe in the Orth book and other places it is suggested that David could have actually not been in the apartment when Andrew murdered Jeff. 

This is a really good article from the Minneapolis Star Tribune a few months after the murders.  It includes info from a medical examiner involved that David was killed the same day that he and Andrew left the apartment, and then his body was not found for a few days.  Also suggests the reports that they were seen eating in a restaurant together might have been mistaken.

http://www.startribune.com/jan-4-1998-the-cunanan-killings/468676083/

 

A sad point in the article is at the point of the murders David had nursed his dog Prints back to health after Prints was somehow shot in the face :(

[J.D.]

40 minutes ago, Glade said:

I disagree--it looked to me like he realized at the last minute that he had no actual way to escape--the window was too small, covered by broken glass, and it would be really difficult to maneuver himself through it.  That's certainly how I would have responded.  He was paralyzed by fear and anxiety, constantly going back and forth, believing AC's blackmail, experiencing shame about what his parents would think, fearing jail, fearing Andrew, freezing and then trying to run and then freezing again.  He was heavily traumatized and not thinking rationally, so no, I don't think he made a conscious choice to stick with Andrew.  It is victim blaming to try to claim he could have escaped.  How each of us reacts to trauma is individual and based on so many factors in our temperament and brain chemistry and personal history, so there is no "you could have." 

Thank you so much for posting this.  I couldn't agree more.  It's easy to "woulda, coulda, shoulda," but until you're actually in that type of situation, you have no idea what you would or wouldn't do.  When my ex kidnapped and later stabbed me I was handcuffed for a lot of the time, but even when I wasn't -- I didn't run.  You do what you gotta do to not die.  You promise them everything and look for a foolproof opportunity because you know if you don't succeed it'll be the last thing you ever do.

As for David in the bar's restroom, I agree with your theory.  I think he realized he couldn't fit through that tiny window.  I think he also realized he didn't have the upper body strength to hoist himself up that high.

So far, this was both the best and worst episode for me.  Best, because I could relate to it.  Worst, because I could relate to it.

I loved the scene with adult David having one last coffee with his dad.  :(

[MaggieG]

39 minutes ago, jnymph said:

I really loved that David's first glimpse in the afterlife was having coffee with his Dad.  Was beautifully done.

Yes, that was a nice scene and also the point where I started crying.

9 minutes ago, Rubyslippahz said:

A sad point in the article is at the point of the murders David had nursed his dog Prints back to health after Prints was somehow shot in the face :(

Well jeez, that makes it even sadder. Does anyone know where Printz went after the murder? 

[jnymph]

7 minutes ago, MaggieG said:

Yes, that was a nice scene and also the point where I started crying.

Well jeez, that makes it even sadder. Does anyone know where Printz went after the murder? 

Oh dear, now I'm crying.   That's so heartbreaking.    I recall the building manager said that she had taken in Printz on the episode.... I don't know what became of him after that but for God's sake, can we just have a morsel of good news that Printz went on to live a nice life?  : (

17 minutes ago, J.D. said:

Thank you so much for posting this.  I couldn't agree more.  It's easy to "woulda, coulda, shoulda," but until you're actually in that type of situation, you have no idea what you would or wouldn't do.  When my ex kidnapped and later stabbed me I was handcuffed for a lot of the time, but even when I wasn't -- I didn't run.  You do what you gotta do to not die.  You promise them everything and look for a foolproof opportunity because you know if you don't succeed it'll be the last thing you ever do.

As for David in the bar's restroom, I agree with your theory.  I think he realized he couldn't fit through that tiny window.  I think he also realized he didn't have the upper body strength to hoist himself up that high.

So far, this was both the best and worst episode for me.  Best, because I could relate to it.  Worst, because I could relate to it.

I loved the scene with adult David having one last coffee with his dad.  :(

Good God, I'm so sorry you had to endure that trauma !  I pray you're doing well now.  Bless your heart J.D.

Edited February 9, 2018 by jnymph

[J.D.]

13 minutes ago, jnymph said:

Good God, I'm so sorry you had to endure that trauma !  I pray you're doing well now.  Bless your heart J.D.

How sweet.  Thank you so much.  It wasn't recent, though.  It happened when I was 19, but it's always on my mind this time of year.  Next Thursday will mark the 10 year anniversary.  Thank you for caring.

[MaggieG]

I'm hoping David's parents took Printz. I'm just going to pretend that happened :)

[Rubyslippahz]

2 minutes ago, MaggieG said:

I'm hoping David's parents took Printz. I'm just going to pretend that happened :)

David appeared (from news stories at the time) to have a lot of wonderful friends and family that were very involved in his life.  I'm sure someone took good care of Prints for him after he was gone.

[TheGourmez]

9 hours ago, Sarah D. Bunting said:

I do not remember this AT ALL and we are always harping on the look on Again With This, because the Bev Niners do it constantly, especially Steve. The More You Knooowww

An important part of this fashion, at least among my circles in the early 90s, was that you had to bag out the shirt after tucking it in. Literally pull the shirt up just enough from the pants to create a baggy effect.

[Robert Lynch]

Darren Criss is really killing it as Andrew. I found it amazing he went from Glee to a real life serial killer like that. I was skeptical at first, but he was doing great as Andrew.

[CofCinci]

1 hour ago, Robert Lynch said:

Darren Criss is really killing it as Andrew. I found it amazing he went from Glee to a real life serial killer like that. I was skeptical at first, but he was doing great as Andrew.

He is doing such an amazing job with this role that it’s going to be hard for me to see him as someone other than Andrew Cunanan. Or, to not be scared of him. 

[dubbel zout]

I thought last week's episode was wrenching, and then this one comes along. Those poor, poor men.

The look Andrew gave the woman in the elevator (the morning after he murdered Jeff Trail) was chilling. (Her Diadora tracksuit cracked me up, though.)

The scenes with Jeff and his dad were really good.

Bette Midler's daughter, Sophie von Haselburg, played Trail's colleague. I thought she did a nice job even though she was the Info Dump Character.

[MerBearStare]

I agree that this was the most upsetting episode so far. I really hope family and friends of the victims are not watching. I doubt they would, though.

I've found the murders of David and the pick-up truck owner to be the saddest - knowing that you're going to die and there's nothing you can do about it. To me that's harder to watch than someone not knowing they're about to die, like Lee and Gianni. And showing David, after he was shot, as a little kid running through a field and then running his hand through the grass right before he was shot a second time - goddamn, well done, show. 

Even though Gianni's murder is the most well-known one, I think the rest of them have been far more interesting to watch. 

On a lighter note, I definitely thought his dog's name was Prince because it was Minnesota. I too was concerned he was going to shoot the dog and was relieved when that didn't happen.

Edited February 10, 2018 by MerBearStare

[Steph619]

This episode scared me. Seeing how much of a psychopath Andrew Cunanan was and the type of control that he had over people is chilling. I think Darren Criss is doing an excellent job with this role.

I too was afraid of the dog being killed.

I can't say I'm a big fan of the order the show Is going, backwards rather than forward, because I get kind of confused by the sequence of events. However, it's interesting that although they're going in reverse, Andrew Cunanan seems to get worse and scarier with each episode.

[SuzieQ]

More of a general comment but this should be titled The Story of Andrew Cunanan.  It's all about him and Versace is just another of his victims.

[Shadow Wave]

On the issue of David not escaping through the window, in the Vanity Fair podcast on this week's episode, the author Tom Rob Smith explains that, apart from anything else, it has sunk in to David that no matter what happens now, everything he's worked for and built up is gone, and there's no going back. Even if he didn't get charged as an accomplice, he'd always be that guy who ran away with a murderer. (Loose paraphrase of Smith's actual words). Who'd hire him as an architect now? 

Put that way, it's so obvious I'm kicking myself for not seeing it clearly. 

The podcast is worth a listen, as the hosts are very knowledgeable about the case and the nuances of the episode. In a particularly nice turn of phrase, one of them mentions that the episode has maybe "Bambi-ed David up" a little too much.

[7isBlue]

On 2/8/2018 at 11:52 AM, Ellaria Sand said:

It was incredibly sad and hopeless. I almost turned it off.

Hopeless is exactly the right word to describe how this episode made me feel.

[jnymph]

12 hours ago, MerBearStare said:

 

On a lighter note, I definitely thought his dog's name was Prince because it was Minnesota. I too was concerned he was going to shoot the dog and was relieved when that didn't happen.

When David said “ Are you taking Prince/Printz for a walk?” I immediately assumed he was named after the Minneapolis rock star. Perhaps he was named after the rock star & architectural “ prints”

I’m discussing the dogs name because I have to think about lighter aspects of this show - it’s so intense & bothering me. 

[Daisy head]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who breathed a sigh of relief that Printz was spared. At the beginning when Printz was first shown, I honestly almost turned it off. I cannot watch ANYTHING in which animals are harmed. Before my daughter & I watch a movie we like to consult that Does the Dog Die website to see if we will be able to sit through it.  Not only was I afraid of him being hurt or worse by AC, but when AC put him in his cage, I thought they would leave him in there when they fled & we would be subjected to a scene in which someone came in to check on David for having been missing for several days, only to see that Printz had starved/died of thirst in his cage. :(  I am in agreement with the poster who is choosing to believe that Printz happily lived out his remaining days being overindulged on the sprawling land of David's parents.

[Robert Lynch]

A lot of people are saying how much Cody Fern looked like Andrew McCarthey or Dax Shepherd. He seems to be a cross between both to me. 

[helenamonster]

I don't think I've ever seen Cody Fern in anything before, but he was absolutely spectacular in this episode. I know this is really The Darren Criss Show, but the sympathetic, nuanced focus on David was beautiful and had me tearing up at several moments. Another brilliant, hardworking, kind person snuffed out due to petty jealousy.

I'm glad to see Finn Wittrock will feature more heavily in next week's episode...at first when Jeff Trail was murdered five minutes in I thought he'd just stopped by as a favor to Ryan Murphy, so I'm looking forward to more from him.

Based on this episode and the previews for next week, it appears, in the narrative the show is weaving, that Cunanan's spree was set off when the people closest to him started to see through his ruse and he wasn't passing muster with his much more legitimately accomplished friends anymore. Real life rarely fits into a nice thematic arc like that, but I think this show is doing a good job of putting that sentiment together.

For both this season and People vs. OJ, this show is really good at establishing setting, which I think is essential for a show called AMERICAN Crime Story. In People vs. OJ, the city of Los Angeles played a huge role in how everything turned out. I like that this season is using the various cities that Cunanan lived/murdered in (so far Miami, Chicago, and Minneapolis) to flesh out the story. Miami is important for the LGBT/homophobia angle of the story, as well as establishing Versace's status in South Beach social life. Lee Miglin is considered "the man who built Chicago" and starting this episode with the news reel about Minneapolis and how it was so named as "the City of Water," then using David's trips with his father to the lake and dying by a lake as narrative bookends really brings the whole thing together (also with Minneapolis being a notoriously LGBT-friendly city).

The only thing I don't like about the story being told in reverse is that I feel like we're missing some key details of the progress of the investigation. Who found David's body? How did the police know Cunanan would be heading to Miami when he'd disabled the phone in Lee Miglin's car, switched vehicles in New Jersey, and then switched plates? I'm interested in learning about the lives of the victims and how Cunanan got to this destructive point in his life, but the search for Cunanan is generally considered the biggest failed manhunt in the history of the FBI, and I wish they'd put a little more focus on how that came to be.

[Spike]

In real life the dog was a Dalmatian.  I assume Printz came from the spots reminding David of fingerprints.

[methodwriter85]

2 hours ago, helenamonster said:

I don't think I've ever seen Cody Fern in anything before, but he was absolutely spectacular in this episode. I know this is really The Darren Criss Show, but the sympathetic, nuanced focus on David was beautiful and had me tearing up at several moments. Another brilliant, hardworking, kind person snuffed out due to petty jealousy.

Based on this episode and the previews for next week, it appears, in the narrative the show is weaving, that Cunanan's spree was set off when the people closest to him started to see through his ruse and he wasn't passing muster with his much more legitimately accomplished friends anymore. Real life rarely fits into a nice thematic arc like that, but I think this show is doing a good job of putting that sentiment together.

For a couple of minutes I thought Cody Fern was Trevor Wright, who was best-known for his role in a well-regarded gay film called Shelter, and I got excited because he hasn't worked in a long time. Oh, well. I thought he did a superb job.

Andrew was also 27, which isn't old but he was starting to age out of that fabulous young wunderkid role that he tried to portray himself as being. His mental belief was that he was the fabulous young thing due to be the next big thing, but he was 27 and things still hadn't happened yet. That might have also been part of it.

On 2/9/2018 at 3:07 PM, J.D. said:

I disagree--it looked to me like he realized at the last minute that he had no actual way to escape--the window was too small, covered by broken glass, and it would be really difficult to maneuver himself through it.  That's certainly how I would have responded.  He was paralyzed by fear and anxiety, constantly going back and forth, believing AC's blackmail, experiencing shame about what his parents would think, fearing jail, fearing Andrew, freezing and then trying to run and then freezing again.  He was heavily traumatized and not thinking rationally, so no, I don't think he made a conscious choice to stick with Andrew. 

I kind of think at that moment David resigned himself to his fate. We knew he was going to die, and he knew he was going to die.

I did think it was interesting to compare the actor vs. the real guy. They definitely went for a guy who had a much younger-looking, innocent face as opposed to the real David Madson. That seemed like a deliberate choice-  I think the episode would have felt different if David had been cast with a rugged-looking guy who looked like he was in his 30's like he actually was, instead of a beautiful twinkish wide-eyed guy. Cody Fern is  apparently 30 but definitely doesn't look it.

[dubbel zout]

14 hours ago, Shadow Wave said:

On the issue of David not escaping through the window, in the Vanity Fair podcast on this week's episode, the author Tom Rob Smith explains that, apart from anything else, it has sunk in to David that no matter what happens now, everything he's worked for and built up is gone, and there's no going back. Even if he didn't get charged as an accomplice, he'd always be that guy who ran away with a murderer. (Loose paraphrase of Smith's actual words). Who'd hire him as an architect now? 

I wonder too if David was afraid of what Andrew would do if he (David) did run away. Andrew had promised not to hurt anyone else if David stayed. Who would want more deaths on his conscience? 

David was in a terrible, terrible predicament.

3 hours ago, helenamonster said:

the news reel about Minneapolis

That cracked me up, as it had such a tourist-bureau gloss to it. (The Twin Cities are great, even if the winters can be brutally cold, gray, and long.)

3 hours ago, helenamonster said:

The only thing I don't like about the story being told in reverse is that I feel like we're missing some key details of the progress of the investigation.

I wonder if the final episode might connect the dots a bit more, because as you correctly noted later on,

3 hours ago, helenamonster said:

the search for Cunanan is generally considered the biggest failed manhunt in the history of the FBI

and this is as important as anything else in the show.

[MaryWebGirl]

17 hours ago, Steph619 said:

I can't say I'm a big fan of the order the show Is going, backwards rather than forward, because I get kind of confused by the sequence of events. However, it's interesting that although they're going in reverse, Andrew Cunanan seems to get worse and scarier with each episode.

I think that's a really interesting point. Maybe it's because, in reverse order, the deaths look more pointless as they go on. It's not unheard of for celebrities to have dangerous stalkers, and Lee Miglin could be seen as someone who was a mark for robbery by a desperate person on the run. It's not justification but it offers some explanation for what happened to them. Jeff and David just...didn't like Andrew. That's all it took. They're all sad but the senselessness with these two is above and beyond.

[Florinaldo]

The last scene was immensely sad, not only because of DM's death, but also for the fact that it is the only time in the episode where AC can feel really close to him and there is no antagonistic interaction between the two; even when he was hugging him after the murder and cleaning him up these were not quiet moments. Of course, it had to happen after his death as AC snuggles up to his body and sleeps for a while. Although he does seem to return to reality very quickly once he wakes up. A real waste of all the lives involved.

 

4 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

I did think it was interesting to compare the actor vs. the real guy. They definitely went for a guy who had a much younger-looking, innocent face as opposed to the real David Madson. That seemed like a deliberate choice-

One possible explanation is that they wanted a clear delineation between AC's clients, rich older men, and his circle of younger friends and acquaintances. This would facilitate the visual identification by viewers of which group a new character belongs to, even though it's not quite faithful to how some characters looked like in real life.

 

21 hours ago, Steph619 said:

I can't say I'm a big fan of the order the show Is going, backwards rather than forward, because I get kind of confused by the sequence of events. However, it's interesting that although they're going in reverse, Andrew Cunanan seems to get worse and scarier with each episode.

Often, stories depicting serial killers start with them as children or teens (or there is an extended flashback early in the story) and follows them as they grow towards their murderous paths; so one has an opportunity to develop some sympathy for them before they turn into what we could consider monsters. Here, we saw AC kill in the first 10 minutes of the first episode and he has been in the worst phase of his life, the really violent one, in the 4 episodes except for a few glimpses like his friendship with Ronnie and the San Francisco flashback. The murderous rampage is now over as far as the chronology goes; will it be possible for viewers to gain any sympathy for AC in his pre-murder phase, however charming and intelligent they portray him in further episodes considering what we have already seen him do?

I think the show deliberately wants to avoid generating sympathy or identification with the killer, even as they establish the contrast between the two main phases of his life, with the resulting conflicting emotions it may generate in viewers. I would say that up until now, viewers have been led to sympathise and identify mostly with the victims.
 

Edited February 11, 2018 by Florinaldo

[Robert Lynch]

And Darren Criss is three years older than the real Andrew, but looks much younger than the actual person. I think the reason that Andrew was aging was due to a personality disorder or some other mental issues he had. But if that specific person was a drug user, your face could drastically age that fast. That could be another reason he was losing his looks. It's all how well you take care of yourself. 

[truthaboutluv]

As someone who has adamantly rejected comparing this season and The People vs. O.J. Simpson, this last two episodes especially, have further showcased to me how different the two seasons are. The People vs. O.J. Simpson was all about the Trial of the Century and the cast of characters that played a part in it, making what was supposed to be a murder trial, almost entertainment. As many have said throughout the years, it was maybe the first real "reality television" show that viewers couldn't turn away from. Nicole Simpson and Ron Goldman became afterthoughts - lost in the cloud of all the trial drama and gossip and everyone who was chasing their 15 minutes of fame. And yes of course, there was the racial aspect as well. And don't get me wrong, that was all very true to what happened during that time and so it made absolute sense that that's what the season focused on. 

This season, the victims aren't lost and forgotten. Their stories are being told.  Yes, a lot of the focus is on Andrew but we've been shown what kind of a man Versace was, Lee and Marilyn's love for each other despite his being gay, David's love and relationship with his father. And we've seen how talented and passionate all of these men were for their work and how hard they all worked for everything they had. Viewers are seeing the victims as people and no matter how small, glimpses into their lives and the people who loved them. Viewers are getting a chance to feel sad for these victims.

So while yes, some feel like it's Andrew's story because we see so much of him, having the victims stories be told is actually ensuring that you're not sympathetic with Andrew and never lose sight of what a monster he was. Because obviously none of these men deserved what happened to them but again, getting that glimpse into the kind of people they were and just how horrible their murders were, ensures that the focus is on them and truly underscores the heinousness of Cuananan's crimes. I mean of course we know it's all cinematic effect since no one can know for sure what happened when David Madsen was murdered. But seeing an image of him running, the last cup of coffee with his father, realizing that he's actually slowly dying, was heartbreaking.

And I personally am glad that this is the route the season has taken. 

[jackjill89]

This episode was so tense and incredibly sad. We'll never know what really happened, but what was imagined was tragic. I was on the edge of my seat, knowing David would be killed, not remembering if both deaths were brutal...hoping the dog wouldn't have his throat slashed. I was uncomfortable watching this episode. 

[Anela]

On February 8, 2018 at 12:33 AM, Blakeston said:

I found it disturbing how much the actor playing Madson looked like Matthew Shepard. It felt like a deliberate choice - so far as I can tell, in real life, Madson didn't bear any resemblance to Shepard.

 

On February 8, 2018 at 1:04 AM, AttackTurtle said:

That was awful.  You know what’s going to happen, but still hope that it will be different.

The actor playing David reminded me of a young Andrew McCarthy and I thought he was fabulous.

I'm watching it right now, and came here to see if anyone else thought he looked like Andew McCarthy. Glad I'm not the only one. 

I'm also gla nothing happened to the dog. It was horrifying enough what he did to Jeffrey. 

I guess Finn will be back next week? Since they're going backwards.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Anela

[MsJamieDornan]

On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 2:05 PM, Rubyslippahz said:

On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 8:32 AM, CofCinci said:

 

You make a good point.   I believe in the Orth book and other places it is suggested that David could have actually not been in the apartment when Andrew murdered Jeff. 

This is a really good article from the Minneapolis Star Tribune a few months after the murders.  It includes info from a medical examiner involved that David was killed the same day that he and Andrew left the apartment, and then his body was not found for a few days.  Also suggests the reports that they were seen eating in a restaurant together might have been mistaken.

http://www.startribune.com/jan-4-1998-the-cunanan-killings/468676083/

This is a great article. I agree with the medical examiner.