S04.E04: The Expiration Date

[Bastet]

Quote

Grace fears her relationship has reached its expiration date.  Frankie faces an existential crisis when she learns she's been declared legally dead.

[OtterMommy]

I really wish Peter Gallagher's character hadn't been so skeevy last season.  I would have loved him completely in this episode, except I couldn't forget that he basically sexually harassed Grace to get her to date him.

I'm am completely on Sol's side about the neighbors.  Who the hell would think it would be okay to out someone you had just met to their fiance, especially all you could go on was the fact that they had mannerism that sort of play into a stereotype of gay men?  Ugh!

[Bastet]

I still can’t believe this of all shows did the “man acts like a total asshole, refusing to take no for an answer, and woman finds it attractive” shit, but I’m trying to just enjoy how Nick is written this season.  I like them negotiating, because that was the one aspect of their interaction last season that was good.  The scene where she showed him the real her was great, and I liked the call back to the first episode (with taking off the eyelashes, hair pieces, etc.).

Brianna going from tormenting Grace about not inviting her, to noticing her limp and declaring she will fucking kill this guy if he did something to her leg was great.  Then Grace thinking they’d slept together.  Ha!

“Who needs a drink?”
“I’d like a martini, please.  And then I’d like a pitcher of martinis.”

Robert is out of his damn mind thinking it's okay to out someone he's known five minutes, just because he thinks it's the same situation he put Grace in.

Is the "I didn't think she was all that" character Frankie saw when imagining her wake the one who told her Sol was gay, and then they never spoke again?  But she's a kid.  I know Frankie would be seeing her as she was back then, but she's still really young.  I know, keep watching.

[stcroix]

Who WAS that kid?!

[Wicked]

The kid was Teddy, Frankie's sister.

[Mindthinkr]

"Little Kelly who pooped in our hot tub?" 

"Oh that Kelly"!!!   ROTFL 

[Kanena]

On 1/19/2018 at 2:25 PM, OtterMommy said:

I'm am completely on Sol's side about the neighbors.  Who the hell would think it would be okay to out someone you had just met to their fiance, especially all you could go on was the fact that they had mannerism that sort of play into a stereotype of gay men?  Ugh!

I agree. Sol was spot on about Robert over identifying with the neighbor. It's none of his business. I think what they were getting at is that Robert has a lot of regrets about his marriage.

[msani19]

Grace taking her makeup off in front of Nick was a powerful moment, particularly for Grace. It hit me in a maybe an unintentional way. How women look is so ingrained in how we interact with the world. Grace, was (and is...) a beautiful woman and for the majority of her life that was how she faced the world each day.

Getting older as a beautiful woman is a challenge and Grace is facing that and I really appreciate how the show is addressing that. Youth is so prized and older women (in particular) get dismissed and shoved aside - as evidenced by their vibrator business - I can see how Grace is struggling with how she thinks Nick sees her. 

I can't remember which of the original supermodels said this but her quote was "nothing ages worse than a beautiful woman's ego". You spend the majority of your life being treated a certain way and then one day your age changes that. It's difficult. I have more thoughts but it's getting late. 

[MissLucas]

Was this ever brought up before or did Frankie drop a little bombshell here? Who was the person who told her Saul was gay? If she really had had one person trying to warn her that changes a lot about her story. And by that I don't mean that she should have believed that person or confront Saul. But once the truth came out there must have been some turmoil dealing with the fact that she did not enter that marriage completely blind and I can't remember this ever having been mentioned.

When Robert came up with the idea of telling Jo the truth I thought that this would be more something Saul would do - but then he mentioned how much Grace suffered in their marriage and it made sense that it was Robert. It's still a horrible, horrible idea. 

Edited January 21, 2018 by MissLucas

[2727]

The maybe-gay neighbor storyline reminded me of this song by Garfunkle and Oates. And yeah, none of Robert and Sol's business.

[wendyg]

I fear this season is too cringe-making to watch the rest of. I think I'm going to pick the end of season 3, with G&F sitting watching that gorgeous landscape as the end of the series.

[Sesquipedalia]

It's kind of touching that Robert still feels so guilty about what he did to Grace that he's wanting to meddle in other people's business in a way that's totally OOC for him. As Frankie might put it, it's super none of his business, but the impulse seems to come from a good place.

The dynamics of Robert and Sol's guilt and suffering are interesting--Robert's being more about how me made Grace miserable for 40 years living a lie and Sol's being more about losing what he had with Frankie, whom he truly loved. And, unfortunately, that's one of the only things I find interesting about them...

[debraran]

12 hours ago, msani19 said:

Grace taking her makeup off in front of Nick was a powerful moment, particularly for Grace. It hit me in a maybe an unintentional way. How women look is so ingrained in how we interact with the world. Grace, was (and is...) a beautiful woman and for the majority of her life that was how she faced the world each day.

Getting older as a beautiful woman is a challenge and Grace is facing that and I really appreciate how the show is addressing that. Youth is so prized and older women (in particular) get dismissed and shoved aside - as evidenced by their vibrator business - I can see how Grace is struggling with how she thinks Nick sees her. 

I can't remember which of the original supermodels said this but her quote was "nothing ages worse than a beautiful woman's ego". You spend the majority of your life being treated a certain way and then one day your age changes that. It's difficult. I have more thoughts but it's getting late. 

When I was young, teens, 20's, I wore makeup but never a lot. I did feel naked without undereye coverup and mascara and some blush. When I went swimming with a guy I liked a lot, I got submerged slipping on something and my mascara dripped and my makeup was off, hair later was frizzy, he said, he liked it, don't fix yourself. I never did go without it all together but he had a point, wearing makeup to accent or hide something is not bad, but it is a facade of sorts. I would see women spend a hour on their eyes, straightening hair, wearing padded bras and contouring pantyhose. When it comes off you are still you, but you always know you are hiding behind it. I think the insecurity some women have starts there. Men never do it, so it's not an issue.

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

Bisexual erasure on this show continues to bother me. I buy that Robert was a deeply closeted gay man who chose a suitable wife and performed a perfunctory role as a husband, and his greatest regret is that she was the collateral damage in his journey to self-discovery. Sol I don’t buy as a gay man. He clearly had a passionate relationship with  Frankie and was truly in love with her. He was also still interested in having sex with her as recently as the first season. He’s so clearly bisexual, but no one ever even suggests it. 

 

Of course, Robert and Sol’s plotlines are utterly boring to me and they could disappear and I wouldn’t care. 

[ahisma]

I'm bi myself, but I respect people's right to label themselves. Robert and Sol are both completely conventional about relationships. Objectively, Robert might be a Kinsey 5 and Sol a Kinsey 3-4. But for themselves, if they are in love with/married to each other, then they are gay. It might have made a good topic for the show, though, for someone to have asked that question.

[Roccos Brother]

17 hours ago, msani19 said:

I can't remember which of the original supermodels said this but her quote was "nothing ages worse than a beautiful woman's ego". You spend the majority of your life being treated a certain way and then one day your age changes that. It's difficult. I have more thoughts but it's getting late. 

It was Paulina Porizkova who famously said that, and I'll admit it scared me a little to hear her describe days when she would try really hard to look good, yet still feel invisible and ignored.

Interestingly enough, when Jane Fonda was asked about the same issue, she had said that contrary to how the public viewed her, she had always thought herself as average-looking and therefore, the struggle didn't apply to her.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I buy that Robert was a deeply closeted gay man who chose a suitable wife and performed a perfunctory role as a husband, and his greatest regret is that she was the collateral damage in his journey to self-discovery. Sol I don’t buy as a gay man. He clearly had a passionate relationship with  Frankie and was truly in love with her. He was also still interested in having sex with her as recently as the first season. He’s so clearly bisexual, but no one ever even suggests it. 

At least within the context of the show, it feels like Robert would probably have a complete meltdown if there was any realistic chance that Sol would go back to Frankie, so perhaps you can fanwank it that way as to why Sol's seeming attraction to her is never discussed, or treated as though it's an impossibility.  

Quote

It was Paulina Porizkova who famously said that, and I'll admit it scared me a little to hear her describe days when she would try really hard to look good, yet still feel invisible and ignored.

 

That's interesting.  I think she's still very beautiful in her 50s. 

[msani19]

43 minutes ago, Roccos Brother said:

It was Paulina Porizkova who famously said that, and I'll admit it scared me a little to hear her describe days when she would try really hard to look good, yet still feel invisible and ignored.

Thank you! I always really liked her.

[iMonrey]

Quote

Who the hell would think it would be okay to out someone you had just met to their fiance, especially all you could go on was the fact that they had mannerism that sort of play into a stereotype of gay men?  Ugh!

While I agree it would be presumptuous to pull the girl aside and warn her that her fiance might be gay, I don't see why Robert and/or Sol couldn't quietly take the guy aside and ask him if maybe he might be making a mistake and offer their own insight. I mean, it's possible the guy is in deep denial and it's also possible he's entirely straight, but they do have something to offer in the form of experience and could potentially prevent heartache down the line.

There was a scene either last season or the one before that, where Grace had this whole dream sequence she was in the hospital and got an MRI and Jane Fonda wasn't wearing any make-up whatsoever. I thought it was very brave of her, and thought so again in this episode. I think it's great that she and this show are willing to really say something about women of a certain age.

[BravoAddict72]

Who else noticed Oliver the neighbor from my favorite soap of all time, One Live To Live? On that show he played Oliver a gay police officer. It was all I could think about

[Wings]

On 1/19/2018 at 3:25 PM, OtterMommy said:

I really wish Peter Gallagher's character hadn't been so skeevy last season.  I would have loved him completely in this episode, except I couldn't forget that he basically sexually harassed Grace to get her to date him.

I'm am completely on Sol's side about the neighbors.  Who the hell would think it would be okay to out someone you had just met to their fiance, especially all you could go on was the fact that they had mannerism that sort of play into a stereotype of gay men?  Ugh!

He aggressively pursued her but I didn't see it as harassment and neither did Grace, she was using him to get what she wanted and took advantage of his interest in her.    And she got her way!  That was a smart business move. 

I agree that the neighbors were none of Sol's business. 

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

There was a scene either last season or the one before that, where Grace had this whole dream sequence she was in the hospital and got an MRI and Jane Fonda wasn't wearing any make-up whatsoever. I thought it was very brave of her, and thought so again in this episode. I think it's great that she and this show are willing to really say something about women of a certain age.

That was the first of second episode of season one.  I watched those last night. 

She was made up to look like she had no make up on in that one and this episode.    Her skin tone was even so that says foundation.  That is all though.  When lights and cameras are on you without make up it is not a good look and would be distracting.   

[OtterMommy]

Just now, Wings said:

He aggressively pursued her but I didn't see it as harassment and neither did Grace, she was using him to get what she wanted and took advantage of his interest in her.    And she got her way!  That was a smart business move. 

If I remember correctly, Nick refused to conduct any business with Grace unless she went out on a date with him.  That would qualify as sexual harassment in my book.  But, whatever the case, Nick does seem to lack the ability to recognize other people's boundaries.

[debraran]

Unless Grace thought of it as a game, it was definitely harassment but something she seemed to be used too, sadly.

I remembermany years ago, when Jamie Curtis first showed her self with bumps and lumps and no makeup and now actress's like Catherine Zeta Jones and many others are. I hope my daughters (who still hate makeup) will feel less pressure to always hide behind a mask and be themselves.

I finished the series (after promising not too so quickly) Not pleased with how it ended entirely but do hope it has another season.

Edited January 22, 2018 by debraran

[Nordly Beaumont]

"Tonight we're gonna relax and pass gas!" "Oh, please don't pass gas!" "Okay. Starting now. Starting now." lol

When my friend's mother died not much was automatically shut off.  The bills kept coming and she had to send death certificates, sometimes several times before they canceled her cards and other things. But on tv a person gets cut off from all their cards and money and everything overnight.

Edited January 23, 2018 by Nordly Beaumont

[debraran]

7 hours ago, Nordly Beaumont said:

"Tonight we're gonna relax and pass gas!" "Oh, please don't pass gas!" "Okay. Starting now. Starting now." lol

When my friend's mother died not much was automatically shut off.  The bills kept coming and she had to send death certificates, sometimes several times before they canceled her cards and other things. But on tv a person gets cut off from all their cards and money and everything overnight.

That was funny and yes, 2 lawyers can't get the ball rolling....best advice, get arrested. ; )    (and they aren't in a home) lol

[jrlr]

What I'm curious about is if Frankie ever told Saul that before they got married, her sister had told her that she thought Saul was gay.  It seems like a pretty big issue given the fact that Saul has to know that Frankie and Teddy haven't spoken for over forty years, yet it's never been mentioned - a very convenient and sort of sloppy "surprise" to spring this late in the show (and their lives).

As for Robert, he is so far out of line with his new neighbors that it's difficult for me to even watch.    I've seen posts here that commiserate with his feelings and his regrets about his own life, but how exactly does that give him the right to intrude so profoundly on the lives of people he barely knows?  To me it just makes him seem like a sanctimonious little shit with an unwarranted belief in his own insights and importance.

[OtterMommy]

1 minute ago, jrlr said:

What I'm curious about is if Frankie ever told Saul that before they got married, her sister had told her that she thought Saul was gay.  It seems like a pretty big issue given the fact that Saul has to know that Frankie and Teddy haven't spoken for over forty years, yet it's never been mentioned - a very convenient and sort of sloppy "surprise" to spring this late in the show (and their lives).

My guess is no...because of the way Frankie reacted to Teddy when Teddy told her.  Frankie was clearly in very deep denial about what Teddy said about Saul, to the point that she cut Teddy--probably the most important person in her life--completely out.  I agree that it was sloppy.  I don't think that Teddy needed to be introduced earlier than this, or that it even needed to be mentioned that someone had told Frankie about Saul (Sol?) before they were married.  However, something like this probably should have been alluded to back in the first season when Frankie was initially going through her feelings after Saul left her.  Knowing this now makes some of her reactions back then inconsistent.

 

5 minutes ago, jrlr said:

As for Robert, he is so far out of line with his new neighbors that it's difficult for me to even watch.    I've seen posts here that commiserate with his feelings and his regrets about his own life, but how exactly does that give him the right to intrude so profoundly on the lives of people he barely knows?  To me it just makes him seem like a sanctimonious little shit with an unwarranted belief in his own insights and importance.

Yeah, I have a really big problem with that part of the episode.  There is the whole thing about it just being inappropriate on Robert's behalf (I already ranted about this upthread), but it also seems out of character for him.  I would almost expect Saul to do something like that, but not Robert.

[llewis823]

Okay, here is my suspicion about the neighbors. I think "Jo" - despite her petite size (hey think John Leguzamo) - is a transgender person. Either a guy living as a woman or a guy who has had the surgery to make him a "woman". Because when Sol or Robert met "her", they said "Jo - short for Joanna?" and shes looked/sounded uncomfortable and corrected them by saying "No, just Jo".  So that's what I think is going to happen with this storyline.

[Clanstarling]

On 1/21/2018 at 5:55 PM, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said:

Bisexual erasure on this show continues to bother me. I buy that Robert was a deeply closeted gay man who chose a suitable wife and performed a perfunctory role as a husband, and his greatest regret is that she was the collateral damage in his journey to self-discovery. Sol I don’t buy as a gay man. He clearly had a passionate relationship with  Frankie and was truly in love with her. He was also still interested in having sex with her as recently as the first season. He’s so clearly bisexual, but no one ever even suggests it.

Whether Saul identifies as bi-sexual or not, isn't my issue with bi-erasure. As @ahisma said, it's their right to label themselves, and they are very conventional men in that regard. That it isn't even brought up as a possibility that the fiance could be bi-sexual is what bugs me. 

On 1/22/2018 at 11:07 AM, iMonrey said:

While I agree it would be presumptuous to pull the girl aside and warn her that her fiance might be gay, I don't see why Robert and/or Sol couldn't quietly take the guy aside and ask him if maybe he might be making a mistake and offer their own insight. I mean, it's possible the guy is in deep denial and it's also possible he's entirely straight, but they do have something to offer in the form of experience and could potentially prevent heartache down the line.

They don't know this man well enough to intrude to that degree. It is none of their business, and should keep their insights to themselves unless the fiance asks them about their experiences.

They don't know what Jo knows, or what their relationship is, other than the public side they have seen (very briefly).  If he is gay (and not bi-sexual, or just a straight man who seems gay), she could very well know and be okay with it. 

On 1/22/2018 at 6:34 PM, Nordly Beaumont said:

When my friend's mother died not much was automatically shut off.  The bills kept coming and she had to send death certificates, sometimes several times before they canceled her cards and other things. But on tv a person gets cut off from all their cards and money and everything overnight.

 

That is true - even with Social Security I had to go through all sorts of steps to end the payments. 

On 1/25/2018 at 5:35 AM, llewis823 said:

Okay, here is my suspicion about the neighbors. I think "Jo" - despite her petite size (hey think John Leguzamo) - is a transgender person. Either a guy living as a woman or a guy who has had the surgery to make him a "woman". Because when Sol or Robert met "her", they said "Jo - short for Joanna?" and shes looked/sounded uncomfortable and corrected them by saying "No, just Jo".  So that's what I think is going to happen with this storyline.

It's a viable theory, but being a Jo (just Jo), and very much not transgender, I wouldn't use that as supporting evidence. (I've probably had that look on my face a time or two)

Edited January 26, 2018 by Clanstarling

[Blakeston]

On 1/22/2018 at 5:22 PM, OtterMommy said:

If I remember correctly, Nick refused to conduct any business with Grace unless she went out on a date with him.  That would qualify as sexual harassment in my book.  But, whatever the case, Nick does seem to lack the ability to recognize other people's boundaries.

Didn't he file a groundless lawsuit that halted Grace and Frankie's business entirely, and make it clear that he would drop it if Grace went out with him? 

Unless I'm really misremembering it, his actions were completely vile.

[OtterMommy]

Just now, Blakeston said:

Didn't he file a groundless lawsuit that halted Grace and Frankie's business entirely, and make it clear that he would drop it if Grace went out with him? 

Unless I'm really misremembering it, his actions were completely vile.

Yes!  I had forgotten about that.  Wow, it was even worse than I remembered....  It's also pretty clear cut sexual harassment.

[Juniebaby]

If Robert really wanted to help his neighbors all he had to do was talk honestly about his own life and regrets and how deeply he hurt his wife and family by not admitting to himself he was gay.  That would have planted the seed that maybe getting married is a mistake on both their parts.  I also fast forward thru most of Rob & Saul’s scenes because they are both so boring and not believable as a gay couple.  It is also so obvious that Saul & Frankie should have stayed together because they have so much more of a connection, chemistry, enjoy being together and more in common.  If this show survives and I hope it does, maybe they will explore that Saul made a mistake and wants to go back with Frankie.

[Bastet]

4 minutes ago, Juniebaby said:

If this show survives and I hope it does, maybe they will explore that Saul made a mistake and wants to go back with Frankie.

We're getting at least one more season; season five was recently confirmed.

But why would Sol want to go back to Frankie in terms of marriage or a similar partnership?  He's gay, and he's not in love with her.  He loves her, he likes (hell, adores) her, and they've settled into a great relationship, texting about their silly TV shows and talking to each other like the friends and co-parents they are.  They'll always be family, but they're not spouses/partners.  They have in the time since the divorce basically rebuilt the parts of their former relationship that were true once the sting of discarding the part that was a lie faded, and are who they should be to one another. 

[Juniebaby]

I see your point but he has nothing in common anymore with Robert and he clearly loves and misses Frankie.  It would definitely be an interesting plot twist since no one seems to buy them as a gay couple.

[OtterMommy]

51 minutes ago, Juniebaby said:

I see your point but he has nothing in common anymore with Robert and he clearly loves and misses Frankie.  It would definitely be an interesting plot twist since no one seems to buy them as a gay couple.

But what does Frankie want?  It doesn't seem like she wants to be in a romantic relationship with Saul (at least not anymore), so I would be troubled if the show went that direction.

However, if Saul and Robert were to call it quits, for whatever reason, that would be the first thing that happened in their relationship that I could actually buy.

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, Juniebaby said:

I see your point but he has nothing in common anymore with Robert and he clearly loves and misses Frankie.  It would definitely be an interesting plot twist since no one seems to buy them as a gay couple.

I buy them as a gay couple. Perhaps because I knew an elderly gay couple pretty much like them back when I was young. 

[possibilities]

I buy Sol and Robert as couple, too. I'm not sure what is making others not see it.

[CherithCutestory]

20 hours ago, Bastet said:

But why would Sol want to go back to Frankie in terms of marriage or a similar partnership?  He's gay, and he's not in love with her. 

I have never been convinced that Sol is gay and not bisexual. I know that's how he refers to himself. And in real life I would, of course, always let people identify themselves and not question it. But this is a fictional narrative and everything in the narrative suggests to me that Sol is bisexual. Or pansexual. His attachment to Frankie isn't just spiritual. He actually wanted to have sex with her again after coming out. And then did so. Frankie has always said they had a healthy sex life while they were together. This is a man who was sexually attracted to his wife of forty years.

There is nothing in the narrative to suggest he wasn't genuinely in love with her in every sense.

Sol saying he is gay absolves him of some responsibility in cheating. It's not entirely his fault. It's his wiring! And Sol hates being the bad guy so, of course, he'll cling to that. But I think if he were honest with himself and others he would categorize himself as bisexual. I understand why no one ever mentions the possibility in show. The whole thing that made people more understanding about these two men cheating was that they were gay and in some way denying themselves for all of those years. (This was explicitly said in the first season when they have the first awkward dinner with the kids.) If Sol is bisexual and, thus, genuinely attracted to both his partners it makes him more culpable. Sol doesn't like to think of himself that way and no one else does either. Everyone wants Sol to be a mensch.

But, at this point, no way would Frankie ever take him back.

Quote

Didn't he file a groundless lawsuit that halted Grace and Frankie's business entirely, and make it clear that he would drop it if Grace went out with him? 

Just rewatched that episode. That is exactly what happened. Grace was furious about being shut down. I don't think it was for very long (but only because she agreed to go out with him) but for a new, small business a week is too long.

Edited February 5, 2018 by CherithCutestory

[Inquisitionist]

On 2/4/2018 at 1:54 PM, Juniebaby said:

If Robert really wanted to help his neighbors all he had to do was talk honestly about his own life and regrets and how deeply he hurt his wife and family by not admitting to himself he was gay. 

Agree, and this seems to be where the storyline was headed as the episode ended.  On to Ep. 5 now..

[TV Diva Queen]

So apparently I was the only one that was hoping that when Frankie found out she was dead, that there would be SOME throw-out line about All of Me?  "I feel like I've done this before" would have been perfect for me.  

 

I'm at the point where I'm going to start FF'ing through the Robert and Sol scenes (only when they're alone).  I really don't see them as a couple.  I do love when the refer to Sol as a Muppet.  :)

[Yeah No]

On 1/21/2018 at 3:51 AM, msani19 said:

Grace taking her makeup off in front of Nick was a powerful moment, particularly for Grace. It hit me in a maybe an unintentional way. How women look is so ingrained in how we interact with the world. Grace, was (and is...) a beautiful woman and for the majority of her life that was how she faced the world each day.

Getting older as a beautiful woman is a challenge and Grace is facing that and I really appreciate how the show is addressing that. Youth is so prized and older women (in particular) get dismissed and shoved aside - as evidenced by their vibrator business - I can see how Grace is struggling with how she thinks Nick sees her. 

I can't remember which of the original supermodels said this but her quote was "nothing ages worse than a beautiful woman's ego". You spend the majority of your life being treated a certain way and then one day your age changes that. It's difficult. I have more thoughts but it's getting late. 

I love the way this show addresses these issues that older women face rather than sweep them under the rug like they're just so fabulous and confident that they don't feel those things.  I relate to the insecurity about being older than my husband.  Seeing my body change to look more unacceptable than his to most of society is hard to take.  I am going through that older woman bruised ego thing myself right now and it's not easy.  This show is actually helping me with that.  Jane Fonda rips off her false eyelashes and makeup and I think she's still beautiful, just like my husband says I'm still beautiful.  If I can think that about Jane maybe there's hope I can think it about myself.  This has turned out to be a very empowering show for me!

On 1/23/2018 at 12:40 PM, OtterMommy said:

Yeah, I have a really big problem with that part of the episode.  There is the whole thing about it just being inappropriate on Robert's behalf (I already ranted about this upthread), but it also seems out of character for him.  I would almost expect Saul to do something like that, but not Robert.

ITA, Saul is usually the one that confronts and meddles and has boundary issues, while Robert is just the opposite.  I get it that the plot line is about Robert trying to work off his guilt, but I have to admit that it's coming off to me like the stereotype of the gay man that constantly thinks all straight men are really gay.  Today a lot of young men are metrosexuals that can seem gay on the surface to anyone that doesn't get it, and Robert and Saul are from an older generation that might not get it.  So to me their reaction looks like it's based on outdated gender role stereotypes that aren't always applicable today.  I think it's totally presumptuous of Robert to be so certain of this guy's gay-ness as to consider sticking his nose where it doesn't belong.  Also, how many young men these days don't know they're gay?  I agree, he could be a bisexual too.  So both Robert and Saul are completely presumptuous.  Saul was more on target telling Robert he was over-identifying.

Edited February 28, 2018 by Yeah No

[debraran]

That's very true, re Paulina's quote, after your 40's, especially 50's. I've heard celebrities, whether like Cher or just an actress like Jane, say men don't fly to them no matter how botoxed or pulled up they are, how many muscles. Sure some men will, smarter men (my thought) but they know you are older, your ovaries are old. An interviewer asked a beautiful model why they would care about babies, and she said, even if they don't want any, you are "safe" they want a young woman to make them feel younger.  Then they complain out of bed, they have nothing in common.

I also noticed women my age compliment each other more often, clothes, new ring, etc. When I was younger, I asked an older coworker if she really liked that patients scarf she complimented and she said, "It's okay, but I wanted to "see her", made her happy".  I understood it more later.

I also liked Cher when it came to sexism in her field. In interview," do think that when it comes to aging, we’re held to a different standard than men. Some guy said to me: ‘Don’t you think you’re too old to sing rock n’ roll?’ I said: ‘You’d better check with Mick Jagger’.”

Edited February 3, 2019 by debraran

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, debraran said:

I also liked Cher when it came to sexism in her field. In interview," do think that when it comes to aging, we’re held to a different standard than men. Some guy said to me: ‘Don’t you think you’re too old to sing rock n’ roll?’ I said: ‘You’d better check with Mick Jagger’.”

My favorite incident like that was with Felicity Huffman. I can only paraphrase it, because it was quite a long time ago. She was being interviewed by Lesley Stahl on 60 Minutes, and asked something like, are your children your biggest accomplishment. Felicity was offended, said she was, and took her to task about it being a question only asked to women, and not to men. I always liked Felicity, but I loved her after that moment.

[debraran]

8 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

My favorite incident like that was with Felicity Huffman. I can only paraphrase it, because it was quite a long time ago. She was being interviewed by Lesley Stahl on 60 Minutes, and asked something like, are your children your biggest accomplishment. Felicity was offended, said she was, and took her to task about it being a question only asked to women, and not to men. I always liked Felicity, but I loved her after that moment.

This covers interview a little more and I agree, so unfair. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/mona-gable/is-lesley-stahl-a-good-mo_b_14050.html

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, debraran said:

This covers interview a little more and I agree, so unfair. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/mona-gable/is-lesley-stahl-a-good-mo_b_14050.html

Thank You! It was great to read about it and remember it more clearly.

[snarktini]

Seems like Robert missed a middle path: Simply telling the neighbor about his story and his regrets. He didn't have to say (to either of them) that Oliver is gay, because a) it's not Robert's business, b) he doesn't actually know, and c) judging on stereotypes is uncool. But talking about how he convinced himself to marry a woman only to break her heart decades later, with no hinting, would have scratched the itch to say something without being inappropriate.