S00.E154: Twice Upon a Time

[chitowngirl]

The final chapter of the Twelfth Doctor's journey sees the Time Lord team up with the first ever Doctor and a returning Bill Potts for one last adventure.

[eurekagirl mOo]

BEST Christmas present ever!

[Llywela]

Half of me is really excited to see this and the other half is really nervous. Dear Mr Moffat, please please get the First Doctor right! I have read interviews that made me worry - Moffat isn't really a fan of the First era, doesn't understand it or its characters, and seems to have forgotten that the First Doctor doesn't actually come from 1963 (merely lived there for a time and did not enjoy it!). I just hope he isn't basing his characterisation on The Five Doctors, which got him very wrong...

Apart from that concern, I am very excited for this!

[Ceindreadh]

I wish that Bill was staying on for another season, but I’m delighted that both she and the Doctor will have one last outing together. Hopefully this time they won’t both be left thinking the other one dead. 

[HauntedBathroom]

Bye Steven. Bye Peter. I shall miss you both terribly. Good luck to Jodie, with Chibbers in charge she's going to need it. But how wonderful was it to see Patrick Troughton at the end of One's regeneration? I was genuinely startled by the use of clips from the Tenth Planet. The whole thing left me very touched and emotional.

[cambridgeguy]

The Doctor's last moment keep getting more and more meta.

For those who can't wait, the BBC has already posted the regeneration on Youtube.

In the future the Doctor really should make sure the TARDIS isn't in flight during a regeneration.

[Chip]

How many shows can have a "Previously on... 709 episodes ago"?

[Lebanna]

It was a much more positive regeneration this time - partly perhaps because everyone this Doctor loved is pretty much dead. But keep singing it, Doctor - we could all do with more kindness in the universe.

[foreverevolving]

Brilliant episode!

Had a terrible time understanding what #13 was saying, literally had to google it. I hope it was just the music that made it hard to hear her and not the accent. I guess i'll know next year! Do we really have to wait till fall 2018? that's just really depressing!

I admit even though I knew Bill was in the episode, when she was in the shadows (during her reintroduction) I was absolutely sure that she was River Song. I had hope for a view of her.

And oh! the twist with the soldier being Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart father(?) I assume.

 

It was fun seeing #1 opposite Bill, and how they kept shocking each other. It was funny but also put a great deal in showing us how very sexist the early doctors were (a true piece of their time period no doubt)

 

Also 12th final words, copying 10th final words, but reversing them.

 

And bloody hell! is the doctor gonna crash the Tardis every single regeneration now? this got to be the second or third since 2005; and it's only the fifth regeneration.

Edited December 25, 2017 by foreverevolving

[lambertman]

Man, even the TARDIS is sexist.

[Humbugged]

1 hour ago, Lebanna said:

It was a much more positive regeneration this time - partly perhaps because everyone this Doctor loved is pretty much dead. But keep singing it, Doctor - we could all do with more kindness in the universe.

And those 3 people all got to appear and say their farewells

 

Quote

I hope it was just the music that made it hard to hear her and not the accent.

Probably the music .But if you have difficulty with thick accents Jodie does seem to be going with the full Shat

[LiveenLetLive]

A decent send off, not a big fan of Capaldi, but he was good tonight, now on to a young female doctor and I will be interested on how the writers dance around the sexuality issue--she is young and attractive and will meet characters who, if the show is being honest, will be sexually attracted to The Doctor in a way that previous male doctors could avoid.

[Triskan]

That was beautiful.

Cant really say more right now, I'm still overflood with emotions, but yes, they were here the emotions.

Twelve... I let you go.

Thirtheen, you'll be brilliant indeed. 

[MarquisDeCarabas]

47 minutes ago, LiveenLetLive said:

she is young and attractive and will meet characters who, if the show is being honest, will be sexually attracted to The Doctor in a way that previous male doctors could avoid.

I assume you mean attracted to and are not used to being rebuffed, or attracted to and are overly aggressive about it. Because the doctor has certainly dealt with people who are attracted to him. 

[MarquisDeCarabas]

3 hours ago, foreverevolving said:

And bloody hell! is the doctor gonna crash the Tardis every single regeneration now? this got to be the second or third since 2005; and it's only the fifth regeneration.

Hopefully to stem any ‘Woman Doctor can’t drive lol,’ nonsense. 10, 11, and 12 all crashed the TARDIS to some extent when they first regenerated. 

[LiveenLetLive]

8 minutes ago, MarquisDeCarabas said:

I assume you mean attracted to and are not used to being rebuffed, or attracted to and are overly aggressive about it. Because the doctor has certainly dealt with people who are attracted to him. 

I am talking about adult attraction, not crass and aggressive, although it has happened with the younger male doctors they handled the situation in ways that I would NOT want to happen to the first female doctor--Tennant's gooey "love" (or whatever the hell that was) with the teenage Rose, I adored River with Matt Smith, I know that plenty of people detested that storyline--it was a partnership (if that is a good word regarding that dynamic) of equals that worked IMO, what would be unbelievable is if they just decide to pretend that no man or woman would be attracted to Jodi physically at least--as much as Doctor Who is a "children's show" it is also watched by millions of adults, it will take a sensitive set of writers to work with this new dynamic, and I am excited to see it.

[Fiero425]

3 hours ago, LiveenLetLive said:

A decent send off, not a big fan of Capaldi, but he was good tonight, now on to a young female doctor and I will be interested on how the writers dance around the sexuality issue--she is young and attractive and will meet characters who, if the show is being honest, will be sexually attracted to The Doctor in a way that previous male doctors could avoid.

 

IDK if I'll be ready for it; even though production has given us a taste with Master/Missy and the general's change back on Gallifrey switching sexes after the Doctor shot him! ;-)

[Fiero425]

On ‎12‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 3:57 AM, Ceindreadh said:

I wish that Bill was staying on for another season, but I’m delighted that both she and the Doctor will have one last outing together. Hopefully this time they won’t both be left thinking the other one dead. 

Bill's a good person, but like Clara gets on my last fk'n nerve with all the questions! I don't like being interrogated so it's just as annoying to have her go "20 questions" at the worst of times! "Just STFU sometime," but she wouldn't be Bill without being an annoying twit I guess; even as a duplicate! ;-)

[Kromm]

5 hours ago, LiveenLetLive said:

A decent send off, not a big fan of Capaldi, but he was good tonight, now on to a young female doctor and I will be interested on how the writers dance around the sexuality issue--she is young and attractive and will meet characters who, if the show is being honest, will be sexually attracted to The Doctor in a way that previous male doctors could avoid.

Well a mid-30s appearance is old enough that she won't be mistaken for the ingenue in most circumstances though.  So even if male characters are attracted to her, it really shouldn't set up endless situations where the character isn't taken seriously. I expect there could be a few plots which acknowledge sexism in how she's reacted to, but the baying masses afraid of constant "anti-man" stories probably have nothing to fear. For the most part I expect they'll have Whittaker play this very neutral in terms of gender angles to the storytelling. A few jokes tossed in and little more. 

Besides, David Tennant, to a lesser extent Christopher Eccleston and briefly even Paul McGann were all played as male doctors who were youngish and attractive and who met characters who, when the show was being honest, were sexually attracted to The Doctor.  Both by women, and in the case of Jack Harkness, by a man.

7 hours ago, foreverevolving said:

And oh! the twist with the soldier being Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart father(?) I assume.

Frankly I kind of thought the entire episode telegraphed who that character was, even before they told us.

Edited December 26, 2017 by Kromm

[Kromm]

7 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

The Doctor's last moment keep getting more and more meta.

For those who can't wait, the BBC has already posted the regeneration on Youtube.

That's not the best version of the clip. The best version is on the Doctor Who YouTube channel, with the hilarious capper that the last words we hear from Peter Capaldi as Doctor Who through that mechanism are "Don't forget to subscribe to the official Doctor Who YouTube channel!"

[voiceover]

I haven't watched the last two seasons, but did so enjoy David Bradley in the Adventure in Space & Time film.  I really love Capaldi's first season (and thought he was he only one who had chemistry with Alex!).  So I *had* to watch.

Bradley was perfect. And I did tear right up when Jenna appeared.  Glad I wasn't spoiled for that!  Wish Moffat could have fixed Donna's memory-wipe too.

Goodbye Peter, you sex god you.  My dream: a reboot of The Musketeers.  You were such an awesome Richelieu!  It sucked after you left.

[Lantern7]

Great sendoff for Capaldi, though the Christmas bit came at the end. It didn't feel like last year's special, where it felt like a script was dusted off and tweaked. I do have a few . . . concerns.

1. Wait, where were Ben and Polly while their Doctor was on his vision quest? Frozen in time? In a far-off room of the TARDIS?
2. Did we need Clara? The Doctor is nearing his end, he's with Bill-not-Bill, and then along Clara. Such a drag for Capaldi. I'm sure she's awesome (I don't watch PBS), but wasn't she a Mary Sue? Is this how some fans see Rose? I liked her, I was okay with Billie Piper playing The Moment, but the character didn't need to be thottled.
3. The cliffhanger (so to speak). Is Jodie Whittaker guarenteed to play the Doctor in 2018? My fear is we might have a situation like how NBC hosed Conan O'Brien. The Doctor doesn't find an out, she slams into the ground, and she regenerates again. I reckon the most diehard fans are okay with the new twist, since it was gonna happen sooner or later, but my fear is that Chibnall would cave to the naysayers. Probably not, I know. But hearing that S11 will air in fall? That's a long way off. Sure, the scenes would probably be shot in spring, but that's months off. Once again, I fear for the future, even when I shouldn't.
4. Stupider nitpick: the Christmas truce was used in IDW's "Prisoners of Time" miniseries, with Nine and Rose witnessing it. Meh . . . this episode felt more right.

Seriously, great story. Easily one of the better Christmas specials . . . the farewell wasn't as drawn out as with Tennant, it wasn't as epic as with Matt. It was solid stuff. Having the "real" Bill would've been better, but a duplicate with her memories born from a far-flung future plan that wasn't really evil? Nice. Of course the Captain was the father (grandfather?) of the Brigadeer, and that was awesome. Rusty the Dalek? Hey, why not?!? Cannot wait for Jodie to take the role next year. With projected fall start, she and Chibnall have a lot of time to get it right.

[AnimeMania]

My first thought was "Women Drivers", but I soon realized that she was more of a "Backseat Driver'.

 

Racist Old Doctor: If I hear any more language like that from you, young lady, I'm gonna Tan your bottom!

Sexy Chocolate Glass Robot: I think it is more of a Burnt Sienna.

[Ms Lark]

4 hours ago, LiveenLetLive said:

A decent send off, not a big fan of Capaldi, but he was good tonight, now on to a young female doctor and I will be interested on how the writers dance around the sexuality issue--she is young and attractive and will meet characters who, if the show is being honest, will be sexually attracted to The Doctor in a way that previous male doctors could avoid.

It will be interesting to see how River handles it.

21 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

Did we need Clara?

We never needed Clara.

[Lantern7]

28 minutes ago, Ms Lark said:

It will be interesting to see how River handles it.

The bad news is that she died in "Forest of the Night" in 2008. The good news: Moffat left just enough wiggle room to bring her back afterward, as opposed to her life before the Library, which was seen in 2010-15.

ETA: If they were to reunite, there would be sparks. Not overly sparky, but enough to be fun. Also, River spends a half-hour laughing at the Doctor's new incarnation, and she would pass out from lack of air. Then the Doctor would perform mouth-to-mo . . . shit, I'm writing fanfic. Never mind.

Realized after posting: new Doctor = The Perils of Pauline. Maybe she'll land in the TARDIS Diner with Ashildr. She would have dumped Clara because we don't need her. And Jenna Coleman will probably be busy.

[Galileo908]

1 hour ago, Lantern7 said:

Great sendoff for Capaldi, though the Christmas bit came at the end. It didn't feel like last year's special, where it felt like a script was dusted off and tweaked. I do have a few . . . concerns.

1. Wait, where were Ben and Polly while their Doctor was on his vision quest? Frozen in time? In a far-off room of the TARDIS?
2. Did we need Clara? The Doctor is nearing his end, he's with Bill-not-Bill, and then along Clara. Such a drag for Capaldi. I'm sure she's awesome (I don't watch PBS), but wasn't she a Mary Sue? Is this how some fans see Rose? I liked her, I was okay with Billie Piper playing The Moment, but the character didn't need to be thottled.
3. The cliffhanger (so to speak). Is Jodie Whittaker guarenteed to play the Doctor in 2018? My fear is we might have a situation like how NBC hosed Conan O'Brien. The Doctor doesn't find an out, she slams into the ground, and she regenerates again. I reckon the most diehard fans are okay with the new twist, since it was gonna happen sooner or later, but my fear is that Chibnall would cave to the naysayers. Probably not, I know. But hearing that S11 will air in fall? That's a long way off. Sure, the scenes would probably be shot in spring, but that's months off. Once again, I fear for the future, even when I shouldn't.
4. Stupider nitpick: the Christmas truce was used in IDW's "Prisoners of Time" miniseries, with Nine and Rose witnessing it. Meh . . . this episode felt more right.

Seriously, great story. Easily one of the better Christmas specials . . . the farewell wasn't as drawn out as with Tennant, it wasn't as epic as with Matt. It was solid stuff. Having the "real" Bill would've been better, but a duplicate with her memories born from a far-flung future plan that wasn't really evil? Nice. Of course the Captain was the father (grandfather?) of the Brigadeer, and that was awesome. Rusty the Dalek? Hey, why not?!? Cannot wait for Jodie to take the role next year. With projected fall start, she and Chibnall have a lot of time to get it right.

1) I was wondering that too, but this (pretty much) explains where The Doctor was in episode 3 of The Tenth Planet. They're still on the station.
2) I felt like the cameo was cheap, but was it The Doctor's memory of Clara, or was it Testimony's doing? I don't know. It's interesting to think if it was Testimony, that raises a whole new set of questions.
3) I think Jodie's here to stay. It'd be a dick move to write her out immediately.
4) Haven't read the comics, but I don't think it'd be canon.

Anyway, absolutely loved this. I didn't want to say goodbye to Capaldi, and I felt like he should've been on longer, or that he needed some better stories (yeah, Clara was on two seasons too long for my liking. I liked her, but come on). Really loved how they handled First Doctor, and I loved his chemistry with Capaldi. I also should've seen the twist with the captain coming, but I didn't and enjoyed that, too.

RIP Attack Eyebrows, I'll probably miss you most of all.

[Primal Slayer]

I enjoyed it for the most part. It was great seeing 1/12 together, they played off each other really well.

I do fill bad for Bill, I enjoyed her but seeing her come back just didn't pack the same punch as seeing a glimpse of Clara did. I would've liked Clara used in Bills place since she just pulls more of an emotional punch. We just simply didnt get enough time with Bill and this long hiatus didn't make things better. 

Instead of using the Dalek I feel like it would've been better to use The Library and have River help out.

For so long I have seen the hate for Moffatt and I never got it until 12s series so I am extremely happy that this show is getting fresh blood bts. Hopefully the companions all don't die off in some way.

Edited December 26, 2017 by Primal Slayer

[Lantern7]

1 hour ago, Galileo908 said:

1) I was wondering that too, but this (pretty much) explains where The Doctor was in episode 3 of The Tenth Planet. They're still on the station.

Okay, so what happened in the Doctor's future could be shoehorned into continuity. Not really thrilled about retcons, but given how the Doctor doesn't really remember adventures with future selves, I'm okay with it.

1 hour ago, Galileo908 said:

3) I think Jodie's here to stay. It'd be a dick move to write her out immediately.
4) Haven't read the comics, but I don't think it'd be canon.

I know. It's just . . . we kinda live in a shitty world. Or at least most of what we absorb is coated in crap,even in "normal" times. As for Prisoners of Time? Great story. I think Titan reprinted it. Basically, Ten loses his memories, and has to go through a museum devoted to him to remember. Five meets the Judoon! Six on trial again!! I even got one issue autographed by Colin Baker and Sylvester McCoy, along with some of the creative team.

Quote

RIP Attack Eyebrows, I'll probably miss you most of all.

I know, right? I made motivational posters based on "The Day Of The Doctor" and "Deep Breath." Also, if you see the Twelve thread, I included a link to a video with a cat having that same damn look!

How funny would it be if Thirteen didn't have the usual regeneration wackiness happen to her, and it's the TARDIS that went crazy? It's not about the change of gender . . . Ten and Twelve went overkill with their respective lightshows, and the TARDIS basically had enough.

[Llywela]

10 hours ago, foreverevolving said:

And oh! the twist with the soldier being Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart father(?) I assume.

I think grandfather is more likely. Nicholas Courtney was born in 1929 - Captain Lethbridge-Stewart was shown here as a middle aged man with a family waiting for him at home in 1914.

3 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

1. Wait, where were Ben and Polly while their Doctor was on his vision quest? Frozen in time? In a far-off room of the TARDIS?

In The Tenth Planet, the Doctor encounters Cybermen for the very first time, at the South Pole, which is the location of the base-of-operations for a space mission (why they chose to locate this base at the South Pole is never explained!). During this adventure, the Doctor becomes extremely weak and frail, to the point where he spends most of one episode unconscious (that's the episode three referred to above). Ben, Polly, and the crew at the base do most of the heavy lifting of the adventure, carrying the plot forward. At the end of the story, the Doctor goes back to the TARDIS ahead of Ben and Polly - by the time they've followed him there, the door is shut and they panic and hammer on it to be allowed in. The Doctor has just enough energy left to open the door for them before he collapses and regenerates.

So there is a bit of a gap there to wedge the Twice Upon a Time adventure into, in that the Doctor does go back to the TARDIS alone (that's where I think this adventure has been inserted, rather than episode three) - but it is definitely a bit of a retcon! The retcon is lampshaded a bit by the Twelfth Doctor not remembering any of it - but he never does remember multi-Doctor adventures properly, because timey-wimey.

On the whole, I liked most of this episode, but with reservations - most of which revolve around the way the First Doctor was written, which was my big fear going in, so at least I expected it. Moffat wasn't kidding when he said in interviews that he'd put a lot of 'gentle 1960s sexism' into the First Doctor's mouth, purely so that the Twelfth Doctor could refute it and show 'how far he's come'. The trouble with that being, a) the First Doctor is not a man of the 1960s, he's as much a space alien as Twelve, and b) that isn't how the First Doctor was written in his own era! I mean sure, the 1960s era as a whole is a product of its time, inescapably so - but it was also incredibly progressive for its time, in some ways more so than the show today. The First Doctor was protective of his female companions, sure - but he would never have dreamed of telling them to their faces that 'women are made of glass', and he would especially never have dreamed of complaining that a dusty TARDIS meant the female companion wasn't doing her job! Horrible, horrible writing. The First Doctor travelled with Barbara 'bamf' Wright, for crying out loud! And Barbara might have noticed for herself that the TARDIS was messy and made plans to clean it up at some point, but she'd have handed the Doctor or Ian their backsides if they presumed doing so was her job because she was a woman! Also, the First Doctor would not have been stiff as a board when someone hugged him - he was warm and affectionate. A young woman like Bill he'd have adopted as a surrogate granddaughter without a moment's hesitation!

The writing for the First Doctor in this episode was not good, and that makes me sad.

But I loved that there was no great evil plan to have to thwart. I loved the sense of pensiveness that pervaded the story - reminiscent of Tom Baker's regeneration story. I'm not entirely convinced by the concept of someone in the far future going back through history harvesting the personalities of everyone who ever lived, since a) that seems logistically ridiculous, and b) didn't we already see Missy doing that to create an army of Cybermen? Moffat does love to plagiarise his own ideas!

I'm not a huge fan of long drawn-out regenerations, so I did get a bit fed up of how long drawn out this one was, and I'm also not a fan of a huge destructive light show during regeneration - the Classic regenerations never did anything like that, the regeneration affected the Doctor alone, it didn't blow up the TARDIS! Just as well, too, since the Classic Doctors always had people with them when they regenerated (except for Two).

So, on the whole, I liked a lot about this episode, but with definite reservations.

One last note - Ben Jackson was a good two inches shorter than Polly! This is the second time he has been recast in the modern era (he was also in An Adventure in Space and Time) and both times they've hired an actor way too tall to be Ben!

Edited December 26, 2017 by Llywela

[voiceover]

On the re-watch:

I know more of Classic- than Last-Two-Years-Who, so I wasn't surprised by the Captain's identity.  It was the mustache, probably.

Peter's delighted grin at Clara charmed me right down to my socks.  Reminded me of why I loved him from the first.

Edited December 26, 2017 by voiceover

[Lantern7]

Before I go to bed:

1. Prisoners in Time was the first time I heard about a wartime Christmas truce. Then Robot Chicken covered it. Yeah, it can be a bit much if you're not into that sort of thing.
2. Let's blame the First Doctor's poor health in his interactions with Bill. I know he could be patronizing, but did he do it often in that way? I imagine him pulling that with Barbara Wright. Then I imagine her smacking him so hard, he looks like Patrick Troughton and/or Susan feels it.

[Vermicious Knid]

The WWI Christmas truce was also featured in Paul McCarney's Pipes of Peace video.

Hey, someone remembered the Valeyard! Now explain why that whole storyline disappeared.

I thought Capaldi made an excellent Doctor who was ill-served by shit writing. Especially in his first season. Glad to see Moffat's back. Unfortunately I don't hold out high hopes for Chibnall. And I supposed we'll never see Vestra, Jenny and Drax again.

I've seen the new outfit and I hate the culottes. Haaaaate.

[Llywela]

27 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

1. Let's blame the First Doctor's poor health in his interactions with Bill. I know he could be patronizing, but did he do it often in that way? I imagine him pulling that with Barbara Wright. Then I imagine her smacking him so hard, he looks like Patrick Troughton and/or Susan feels it.

No, no, he did not often do it in that way. Or, in fact, ever. He did once talk about smacking Susan's bottom, but a) that was a single throwaway line, and every character can suffer from bad writing from time to time, and b) she was his actual granddaughter, for whom he was responsible, not someone he'd only just met! Modern writers never get the First Doctor right, and that makes me sad. They remember him only as an upright, irascible Edwardian gentleman, and forget that he was also a cuddly granddad who went around the universe adopting surrogate granddaughters. Heck, Polly would have handed him his backside if he'd suggested it was her job to clean the TARDIS, in the way Moffat made him do here - but he never would have said that, in his actual run! That wasn't who he was, and that wasn't the relationship he had with Polly. Or any of his female companions. He tried to shield them from harsher truths and dangers, yes, but he'd never have told them to their faces he was doing so because all women are made of glass! I want for everyone who has encountered him for the first time here to go away and check out some of his misadventures with his perfect soulmate-in-mischief Vicki (in The Romans, for instance), so that they can know who he was outside of Moffat's writing of him.

16 minutes ago, Vermicious Knid said:

I thought Capaldi made an excellent Doctor who was ill-served by shit writing. Especially in his first season. Glad to see Moffat's back.

Yes.

Quote

Hey, someone remembered the Valeyard! Now explain why that whole storyline disappeared.

I don't think the storyline did disappear, I think fans attach too much importance to it. The Valeyard was like the Watcher or the Dreamlord - not an actual incarnation of the Doctor but something much more fleeting, existing only for that one story. Heck, it was probably already extracted from the Doctor in between adventures we've already seen, and we didn't need to see that happen because it's only significance has already been seen in Trial of a Time Lord.

Edited December 26, 2017 by Llywela

[Snow Fairy]

So Bill isn't travelling around with the alien from the puddle? Or? She is "alive" somewhere with other live-memory-people?

[Beatriceblake]

I liked the last few minutes with the Doctor seeing Clara, Bill and Nardole and then regenerating but other than that I thought the episode needed a stronger plot. It really dragged.

[foreverevolving]

8 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

The bad news is that she died in "Forest of the Night" in 2008. The good news: Moffat left just enough wiggle room to bring her back afterward, as opposed to her life before the Library, which was seen in 2010-15.

ETA: If they were to reunite, there would be sparks. Not overly sparky, but enough to be fun. Also, River spends a half-hour laughing at the Doctor's new incarnation, and she would pass out from lack of air. Then the Doctor would perform mouth-to-mo . . . shit, I'm writing fanfic. Never mind.

Realized after posting: new Doctor = The Perils of Pauline. Maybe she'll land in the TARDIS Diner with Ashildr. She would have dumped Clara because we don't need her. And Jenna Coleman will probably be busy.

Actually, they can easily bring her back to even before "Husbands of River Song", I believe it was during that special that she commented to 12 how much he reminded her of her second wife.. meaning there is also a first wife. So... for all we know,13 may be it without River ever finding out, since 13 will understand that this is a River from before the singing towers. Also 12 and River were on Darillium for 24 years- which means any adventure with a future doctor(s) can easily happen during that time. This also means as River ages they can easily use Alex in the future for episodes during those years or right before; her much younger appearance during River death can be explained as simply saying that the doctor gave her some of his regeneration power before they parted to make look as she did at the start of the darillium time, because she had to look as she was 24 years younger when she went back to Luna.

9 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Great sendoff for Capaldi, though the Christmas bit came at the end. It didn't feel like last year's special, where it felt like a script was dusted off and tweaked. I do have a few . . . concerns.

1. Wait, where were Ben and Polly while their Doctor was on his vision quest? Frozen in time? In a far-off room of the TARDIS?
2. Did we need Clara? The Doctor is nearing his end, he's with Bill-not-Bill, and then along Clara. Such a drag for Capaldi. I'm sure she's awesome (I don't watch PBS), but wasn't she a Mary Sue? Is this how some fans see Rose? I liked her, I was okay with Billie Piper playing The Moment, but the character didn't need to be thottled.
3. The cliffhanger (so to speak). Is Jodie Whittaker guarenteed to play the Doctor in 2018? My fear is we might have a situation like how NBC hosed Conan O'Brien. The Doctor doesn't find an out, she slams into the ground, and she regenerates again. I reckon the most diehard fans are okay with the new twist, since it was gonna happen sooner or later, but my fear is that Chibnall would cave to the naysayers. Probably not, I know. But hearing that S11 will air in fall? That's a long way off. Sure, the scenes would probably be shot in spring, but that's months off. Once again, I fear for the future, even when I shouldn't.
4. Stupider nitpick: the Christmas truce was used in IDW's "Prisoners of Time" miniseries, with Nine and Rose witnessing it. Meh . . . this episode felt more right.

Seriously, great story. Easily one of the better Christmas specials . . . the farewell wasn't as drawn out as with Tennant, it wasn't as epic as with Matt. It was solid stuff. Having the "real" Bill would've been better, but a duplicate with her memories born from a far-flung future plan that wasn't really evil? Nice. Of course the Captain was the father (grandfather?) of the Brigadeer, and that was awesome. Rusty the Dalek? Hey, why not?!? Cannot wait for Jodie to take the role next year. With projected fall start, she and Chibnall have a lot of time to get it right.

Depends on who you ask. I liked Clara enough, but was fine with her gone as I felt she played her purpose - I think they had a hard time writing for her once the mystery of who she was had been explained. which is why I think they had troubles during 12 first year with their dynamic.

I loved Rose with 9 but didn't like her with 10 as I found their romantic dynamic unrealistic and very one sided (unlike River and The doctor, in any incarnation of his- as someone said River and the Doctor were equals, even when he looked like a 12 years old). Also her constantly coming back. And I thought bringing Piper back as The moment was a smart move, this way you get Billie Piper but can avoid Rose, and I thought she did a better job playing The Moment than she did playing Rose - but by that point she had more acting experience under her belt.

 

If they even try to replace Jodie so soon they may face serious backlash, and no doubt will find their rating lowering to new lows that they may get canceled. I, and many I know, will stop watching if they did such an idiotic stunt!

[Good Queen Jane]

2 hours ago, Snow Fairy said:

So Bill isn't travelling around with the alien from the puddle? Or? She is "alive" somewhere with other live-memory-people?

Both. The real Bill is with the pilot traveling the Universe while the memory Bill is with the future glass lady.

[Ceindreadh]

2 hours ago, Snow Fairy said:

So Bill isn't travelling around with the alien from the puddle? Or? She is "alive" somewhere with other live-memory-people?

Yes. 

It all depends on where you are in the timeline. We don’t know how long Bill spent traveling with the alien before her testimony was taken. Yes, she looks exactly like she did when she left the Doctor, so it’s possible she died soon after that, but an alien that can recreate her after she was a cyberman could probably keep her looking the same even as she aged. 

Or just as likely, the glass aliens only downloaded enough of her memory so the Doctor would think she was ‘his’ Bill. 

 

It it does leave open the possibility of crossing paths with Bill again and the Doctor won’t need to worry about spoilers because they haven’t any future info about Bill, just that someday she will die. 

[Anakerie]

If the stars are right, and their hearts are in the right place, children can hear the TARDIS say "Bye Felicia" as it chucks poor 13 out.

[Bruinsfan]

10 hours ago, Ms Lark said:

It will be interesting to see how River handles it.

Well, River did have an ageist streak, and she married Cleopatra at some point, so I think she'd be pleased.

 

8 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

I do fill bad for Bill, I enjoyed her but seeing her come back just didn't pack the same punch as seeing a glimpse of Clara did. I would've liked Clara used in Bills place since she just pulls more of an emotional punch.

Yes, but for a great many of us the emotion involved is seething hatred and we'd like the punch to be literal and directed at her face.

I quite liked it. David Bradley did a great acting job even if Moffat's writing did turn the chauvinism up to 11 for the original Doctor. But the prim crankiness is exactly the aspect of him I loved, and one of the reasons I enjoyed the change to Capaldi's Doctor so much despite his being saddled with the Impossible Albatross for his first two seasons. I loved seeing Bill again, and liked seeing Nardole (I suppose two out of three ain't bad), and appreciated that whatever was going on with the future memory harvesting operation, it wasn't actually some villainous scheme.

[Primal Slayer]

10 hours ago, Ms Lark said:

It will be interesting to see how River handles it.

I think we are pretty much done with River outside of audio dramas. Just like with Jack Harkness, I dont see previous creators characters showing up. Would love it if we did but I dont see it happening.

[LiveenLetLive]

What is it with this show's obsession with The Great War? Mark Gatiss just looked so perfect as the WW1 officer--I loved the historical detail. Actually one of my all time favorite episodes is when The Doctor became John Smith at the Public school (and his sweet romance with the widowed Nurse--a great way to treat a Doctor romance if you must.) One other note, the actor playing the first Doctor did a great  job but I couldn't stop thinking of Hogwarts, LOL

[Fiero425]

20 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

The Doctor's last moment keep getting more and more meta.

For those who can't wait, the BBC has already posted the regeneration on Youtube.

In the future the Doctor really should make sure the TARDIS isn't in flight during a regeneration.

He's supposed to be so smart, but I SMH every time when he purposefully goes into the TARDIS and puts the ship "in flight" when he knows the consequences of his regeneration! It's huge with many rooms; why not go to the POOL area and let that get destroyed? lol!

[cardigirl]

I have only watched it once, and that was after a couple glasses of wine, so I may not have been the most alert, but I didn't enjoy it as much as I had hoped I would. I loved the Christmas special last year, I thought it was darn near perfect, so for me, the first Doctor and the twelveth Doctor together should have been more magical. I did enjoy 12 being very concerned about 1's, um, obliviousness to the effect some of his words were having.  And I enjoyed having Mark Gatiss be in on the ending.  He was very good as the Captain. 

I'm glad the Doctor was given his memories of Clara back.  Steven Moffat said in the special that aired after the showing that he really wanted to do that.  

But as it was the end of the Moffat era, I was hoping for more call back to the entire series of his.  I guess that would have taken the focus off of Peter Capaldi, and that wouldn't have been right.  I enjoyed his Doctor when he wasn't being too grumpy.  

I do not have high hopes for the next season. Not particularly fond of Jodie's acting, but to be fair, I've only seen her in Broadchurch.  However, I have enjoyed Chibnall's episodes for the show and he wrote the P.S. for Brian after Amy and Rory were left in NYC in the 40s, which I loved. So fingers crossed, I'll watch the show. 

[Fiero425]

4 minutes ago, LiveenLetLive said:

What is it with this show's obsession with The Great War? Mark Gatiss just looked so perfect as the WW1 officer--I loved the historical detail. Actually one of my all time favorite episodes is when The Doctor became John Smith at the Public school (and his sweet romance with the widowed Nurse--a great way to treat a Doctor romance if you must.) One other note, the actor playing the first Doctor did a great  job but I couldn't stop thinking of Hogwarts, LOL

How many were surprised he was a Lethbridge-Stewart? He even looked like the Brigadier! I do love when they relate past characters and events to something in the future! Without even seeing or remembering some Classic Who, I'd bet The Doctor is responsible for the Tower Of Pisa leaning to this day! lol! ;-)

[theschnauzers]

On 12/26/2017 at 9:41 AM, Primal Slayer said:

I think we are pretty much done with River outside of audio dramas. Just like with Jack Harkness, I dont see previous creators characters showing up. Would love it if we did but I dont see it happening.

I don’t know that we are in fact done with Captain Jack Harkness. Chibnall was the head writer/ executive producer for torchwood and John Barrowman ended his five year deal in the Arrowverse and is the most likely past male companion who is still living as a character who could be teamed up with Thirteen. And it doesn’t hurt that Barrowman and his sister have written Torchwood novels and radio plays to keep Captain Jack as a viable option for the writers.

Edited December 28, 2017 by theschnauzers
Too. Many. Typos.

[SVNBob]

12 hours ago, Ms Lark said:

It will be interesting to see how River handles it.

My money's on something similar to this:

[The Companion]

11 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

The bad news is that she died in "Forest of the Night" in 2008. The good news: Moffat left just enough wiggle room to bring her back afterward, as opposed to her life before the Library, which was seen in 2010-15.

I think Moffat left it open in The Name of the Doctor, but it is possible this episode could be a resolution. To the extent that River is a collection of memories in a database, she could easily be "rescued" by the future water people. I love River, but I suspect her story is over. The Husbands of River Song was an amazing episode to end it on.

 

I thought it was an entertaining episode. I find myself very sad to say goodbye to Bill and the Doctor. The last year has been so entertaining. I was sad that Danny didn't come back. He is stuck in a different version of Heaven, I guess. 

[hnygrl]

Overall?

I didn't love it. Kinda liked it but didn't love it. There were moments...but overall it dragged and there was no real plot or direction, just ambling along waiting for the regenerations. Best part was Capt. Stewart. And Bill-not-Bill. And good ole bald-headed Nardole. Love him. THE TIME VORTEX!!! Oh how I've missed the time vortex!!! IT. WAS. BEAUTIFUL!!!! I really hope they keep it.

I discovered last night that 12 is now "My Doctor." Oh the feels when he regenerated. Broke my heart. I actually said good-bye to him...dang Capaldi really set the bar high didn't he? I am going to miss him so much.

I heard Murray Gold is quitting too. NO MORE MURRAY GOLD!!!! DAMMIT. I just may be done with Dr. Who...we'll see.

The Tardis rejected the new Doctor. She didn't "wreck" the Tardis, the Tardis spit her out. Rejected her.

Interesting.

I hope they don't eff this up. But I hold out no hope. None. I hope it's something I can look at, point to and say "yep, that's my show"

But I'm not holding my breath. Prepare for the worse, hope for the best. 

Dang I miss Capaldi. His Doctor was so freaking honest. I still see him in my head from Last year. That look on his face when he said "hello sweetie..." Ah, I'm rambling....

Overall? 3 out of 5 stars. Didn't really like it all that much.

[Mabinogia]

I really, really wanted to like it. The return of the first Doctor, Bill and Twelve are my second favorite pairing after Donna and Ten. And Nardole. I didn't even know I missed him until he showed up and I felt all warm and fuzzy. 

But yeah, there wasn't really much of a plot. I think it was about the Doctor choosing to regenerate rather than die? Has that always been an option? I had no idea he had a choice. And...the glass people thing...was Heaven? or something? Yeah, IDK, I didn't pay too much attention to the lack of plot. 

I did love the banter. I loved Bill and the Doctor interacting one last time. I loved the Doctor and the Doctor interacting. 

What I didn't love: Clara. Why her? Of all the people the Doctor has known, why her? UGH! Why can't she just go the fuck away!!!?!?!!?!

Other thing I didn't love, but will wait for Jodie's first ep to decide about is that the Tardis rejected the first female Doctor. Is that supposed to be meta? Is the Tardis the fanbase? I mean, it's hard not to see it be about her being female. But like I said, gonna wait until I see how Chibnall digs himself out of that hole. 

I'm excited about the next season but I am going to miss Bill and Twelve and Nardole dearly. I didn't get to spend nearly enough time with them.