S08.E08: How It's Gotta Be

[Smad]

2 minutes ago, FierceCritter said:

But with Carl dying, whether you liked him or not, he was the heart of the show. He was the reason Rick tried to be a good example and lead with mercy and understanding.

I wanted the show to at least have heart. It obviously has none.

This show could have a lot of heart IMO. It has enough characters that have been there for years. The problem is that these characters barely interact, ever. That's not a new problem. How many times have people argued over the years that it's one of the shows major problems. The characters simply don't interact with each other. Sometimes the actors seem to do it themselves while they are in the background of a scene (DG and MMB did it twice during 'Them'). How many times have people wondered 'hey, have these 2 characters ever even talked to each other on screen?'? The show either developed certain groups that would interact often or sometimes throw 2-4 random characters together for one episode and that's it. Even if you only want to focus on certain characters in one episode that's no excuse. A lot can be done in 45 minutes in terms of character.

The two main problems that are holding the show back in terms of characters and therefore having a heart post S4A is AMC's budget restraints and now too many communities that split the main characters apart. AMC wants to pay as little as possible so you only get a few characters each episode. Even during the prison days when we got almost all of the cast in each episode, they didn't make use of it. Did Carol and Michonne ever even talk to each other? Or Beth and Glenn? We had to assume it was all off screen. You can do that sort of stuff in the background when you have all the cast handy. The camera can be focused on the action while you can still see characters in the background interacting, we just don't hear what they are saying. But it lets us know that these people are in each others orbit.

[AngelaHunter]

7 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

Hershel was my favorite character EVER on this show and I about died when I watched him get beheaded. It took me a long time to get over that. But I felt that it made sense for the show.

Yes, that was shocking because we got to know and love Hershel, unlike the faceless cast of thousands we now have. But his death was well done. You could see the Gov hesitate, almost not do it, but then his last moment of sanity passed. He wasn't chuckling and smirking, yelling about his dick. And Hershel's death did make sense because CDB was going on the run and no way could they have done that with a one-legged elderly man.

As for Carl, the walker bite was so lazy and stupid. If TPTB really wanted him gone, they  could have had something like Negan accidentally shooting him, and maybe being shocked,  feeling remorse or questioning his actions, maybe infusing some human traits into him to make him not so one-dimensional and silly.

[ClareWalks]

4 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

As for Carl, the walker bite was so lazy and stupid.

Agreed! Did we even see any walkers around him in this episode? Because part of the "oh no Coral oh no" of it all was negated by me thinking "wait, when was there a walker?"

[ShadowSixx]

What else is bad is how out of the 3 that Negan wants to capture and kill which is Rick, Ezekiel, and Maggie they only capture one and only because Zeke voluntarily gave himself up. They had Maggie dead to rights and didn't bother to take her with them. Simon blathered on about how Maggie would be taken and killed as option A but why wasn't both options for Maggie being taken hostage? Nobody makes good on their shit and I don't want to hear Rick say he's going to kill Negan and just doesn't do it even though he has plenty of opportunity to do so. 

I'm still contemplating on whether or not to continue watching this show. I invested 8 1/2 seasons so don't know whether or not to see it through or not. It's apparent they want to keep that wussy frat boy Negan alive and they'll probably keep him alive all the way til the end because writers have a hard on for him. 

[Boofish]

This show is not about superheroes. I get some of the frustration with the show but I can't get with the list of "invincible" characters. Who can't be bitten, who can't be beat up, who can't cry, who can't fall in love. These were regular people who were lucky enough to survive an apocalypse; not the Justice League.

[ghoulina]

11 minutes ago, ClareWalks said:

The lack of lighting on this show is totally out of control. I had to adjust my brightness settings and I STILL couldn't fucking see anything. I had no idea who was on screen at any given time. I found myself saying, "am I supposed to know who this is? Is that Michonne or Ezekiel? Is that Morgan or Jerry? Am I supposed to remember who Enid just shot? Did Enid even shoot them, because I CANNOT FUCKING SEE A THING.

I didn't even know Enid shot that old grandma. I had to read about it online. I couldn't see a damn thing either. When you're struggling the entire episode to tell what is going on, it really takes you out of the show. 

 

4 minutes ago, ClareWalks said:

Agreed! Did we even see any walkers around him in this episode? Because part of the "oh no Coral oh no" of it all was negated by me thinking "wait, when was there a walker?"

He didn't get bit in THIS episode. The bite is old. He got bit in The King, The Widow, and Rick. When he and Siddiq were in the woods. I rewatched it this morning and in retrospect, I could tell something was up - even though we don't literally see the bite. But I don't know how many people got it on first watch. Some did, but I don't think it was completely obvious. 

1 minute ago, ShadowSixx said:

'm still contemplating on whether or not to continue watching this show. I invested 8 1/2 seasons so don't know whether or not to see it through or not. It's apparent they want to keep that wussy frat boy Negan alive and they'll probably keep him alive all the way til the end because writers have a hard on for him.

I'm with you. I'm one of those people that finishes most books, even if they're horrible. I'm just a masochist about finishing what I start. But I don't know. This might have been the final straw. I'm considering watching the premiere (not live) because I love Carl and I feel I owe it to him to finish out his storyline. But I might just be done after that. 

[Smad]

18 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

The real answer to this would have been to do a few time jumps, which I don't think would have hurt that plot AT ALL. Or....ya know....end the show. At some point? I get that the comic is going on forever. But this isn't a comic book. I can't think of any good shows that have 8 plus seasons and kept consistent quality. They're just rehashing plots at this point, so I don't see a need for season after season. A better show runner could have covered all the interesting facets of a ZA by now and left us with a satisfying ending. It's not Chandler's fault that these idiots have no end in sight for the show. 

Personally, I know the kid is only supposed to be like 13, but I can handwave that at this point. It's easier to swallow than Maggie's refusal baby bump. 

 

Of course time jumps would have been the ideal way to do this. And it really wouldn't have hurt the plot one bit. You can still do all that comic stuff because IMO it doesn't matter when it happens, just that it happens. And when you do a live show as opposed to a comic, characters age and there is nothing that can change that. Especially children will be a major problem there. There was no reason to follow the timeline of the comics because most viewers are the general audience who never read the comics. You can still have all those events from the comic but clinging to things like it's timeline is just stupid.

25 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

It's easier to swallow than Maggie's refusal baby bump. 

What is the timeline there? We found out Maggie was pregnant after the time jump in S6. How long has it been between that and where we are now. Hasn't it only been a few weeks? S8 so far has only involved a few days. How much time has passed during S6B until the end of S7?

[ClareWalks]

1 minute ago, Smad said:

What is the timeline there? We found out Maggie was pregnant after the time jump in S6. How long has it been between that and where we are now. Hasn't it only been a few weeks? S8 so far has only involved a few days. How much time has passed during S6B until the end of S7?

I feel like Judith has aged a year and a half and Maggie still hasn't gained an ounce, it is crazy. I have no clue where the timeline is either!

[ghoulina]

Just now, Smad said:

What is the timeline there? We found out Maggie was pregnant after the time jump in S6. How long has it been between that and where we are now. Hasn't it only been a few weeks? S8 so far has only involved a few days. How much time has passed during S6B until the end of S7?

I really have no idea. That's part of the problem. How many viewers know off hand how many years since this started? How many months since they arrived at ASZ? It's all a muddle. Actually, I think her lack of a bump might be realistic time wise, but because of how they drag things out it FEELS like she should be showing by now. It just makes it hard to watch. 

 

4 minutes ago, Boofish said:

This show is not about superheroes. I get some of the frustration with the show but I can't get with the list of "invincible" characters. Who can't be bitten, who can't be beat up, who can't cry, who can't fall in love. These were regular people who were lucky enough to survive an apocalypse; not the Justice League.

You are correct. No one is invincible. However, for Carl to be overcome by two weak, ol walkers, when we've seen how beautifully he has dealt with large numbers in the past. THIS particular death is just not believable, to me. Negan can dodge death a million times and Carl basically gets a Dale death. It's ridiculous. 

[TigerLynx]

If they just had to kill Carl, and I still think it was a fucking stupid thing to do, they should have had Carl kill Negan first.  Carl tells Negan he's willing to let Negan kill him, and briefly (and I do mean with as few words as possible) explains that Carl's group is willing to die for each other, something the Saviors will never understand or do.  Then Carl shoots Negan, kills him, then puts a bullet in his own head having already given everyone their letters explaining that he was bit by a walker.

[ShadowSixx]

I call Carl's death Andrea 2.0 death. We didn't see Andrea get bitten just saw her reveal her bite mark and it's over. Only difference is we don't get to hear a gunshot. More than likely Rick put him down before he turned. It's a shame that characters like Carl & Sasha have to leave because they are useful to the group, Sasha being a sniper she could have executed a number of Saviors in this episode and Carl was the John Connor of the show being the future and possibly rebuilding the world. I figured Rick would die before Carl. Yet we still have useless Tara who isn't useful at all, Daryl has contributed next to nothing since arriving in Alexandria and Rosita hasn't been useful for quite a minute.

Edited December 11, 2017 by ShadowSixx

[Boofish]

4 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

I really have no idea. That's part of the problem. How many viewers know off hand how many years since this started? How many months since they arrived at ASZ? It's all a muddle. Actually, I think her lack of a bump might be realistic time wise, but because of how they drag things out it FEELS like she should be showing by now. It just makes it hard to watch. 

 

You are correct. No one is invincible. However, for Carl to be overcome by two weak, ol walkers, when we've seen how beautifully he has dealt with large numbers in the past. THIS particular death is just not believable, to me. Negan can dodge death a million times and Carl basically gets a Dale death. It's ridiculous. 

Honestly it makes more sense to me. Someone continually taking chances he don't need to take, trying to save everyone he meets (while noble not so smart) and constantly putting himself in harms way makes more sense that he would die like this rather than in a blaze of glory.  A character like Eugene dying like that would be sillier to me because he is all about Eugene.

[jls1792]

47 minutes ago, Smad said:

It was an issue for me. Because a lot of the time I had no idea about the timeline in the show because the writers refused to put in any hints. And I don't have the time to do online research for shows so all I have is what's in the show. And CR growing up and therefor Carl aging way beyond what his character is supposed to be, was often the only thing I had to judge time since everything else stayed the same. Is that logical? No. But I had nothing else to go by and I was frustrated by story and characters because I always thought it was weeks/months when really it ways days/weeks.

However as someone else said, now it's too late for that. They should have had rotating child actors long before a 14 year old looked like a man. Personally I wouldn't have had an issue with that because I understand that children age.

 

I might not care much about Carl and prefer him in small doses (sorry but I don't think CR is that good of an actor) but he sure deals with dire situations in a much more adult and calm way than his father. Whether it's shooting his mother, telling Negan to go eff himself or having to be the one to calm his father down while he is about to have his own hand chopped off. I could have seen him develop into one heck of a leader but I don't think CR is capable of carrying the show. For me it all comes down to the actor and why I don't care for the character. Carl's character is better than Rick IMO but the actor puts me to sleep. While he is better than he used to be, he's still completely bland. But that's just me.

I probably should have worded that better.  The timeline is so annoying and complicated to follow.  I wish they would better explain it.  Judith keeps getting older but Maggie still doesn't look pregnant.  I meant I didn't have too much of a problem with 16-18 year old Chandler playing a 14 year old.  Yeah, he looked a bit older than 14, but it's not like they were trying to pass a 30 year old off as a 14 year old (which, plenty of shows have had 20-30 years old play high school teenagers).  

But yeah, I agree, they should have mapped out a timeline better or taken into consideration that the kids playing Carl and Judith are going to age because that's how life works.  If they don't want to recast then they have to keep time flowing.  

[Artsda]

Killing Carl the future leader is the stupidest thing Gimple's done.

[Smad]

36 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

As for Carl, the walker bite was so lazy and stupid. If TPTB really wanted him gone, they  could have had something like Negan accidentally shooting him, and maybe being shocked,  feeling remorse or questioning his actions, maybe infusing some human traits into him to make him not so one-dimensional and silly.

See for me with the whole Negan thing and mercy, the only way that would make sense is if either his people or some zombies were to take out Carl. Then Negan saves him because he is fond of the kid. It's so damn easy to do that in the story. And it would fix both problems. Makes Negan more human and would be the perfect excuse for Rick to show mercy. I can't see how Carl dying from walker bite ties in in anyway with Negan being shown mercy by Rick. For Rick (not other characters) to show mercy to Negan, Negan would have to actively be in a situation where he saves Carl (or Judith). Anything else doesn't make sense.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Smad

[blackwing]

I haven't watched this show since the early episodes of last season when I gave up in disgust.  I recall people here always hating Carl and making fun of him and his hat.  Watched last night's episode because I heard talk in the media that many were speculating Carl would die.  Came here expecting a chorus of "hallelujah at long last we are free of Carl" and I am a bit surprised to see so much lamenting that he was the center of the show.  

Did Carl improve sometime during the last season and a half?  I may go back and catch up.

[jcin617]

If the plan is to kill Carl via walker bite, why end where it did?     I mean, they already ended on an "everything sucks right now" note, so why not go the extra step in having to put Carl down... is there any record of someone surviving a bite that they're waiting to pull a fast one?   I don't have strong feelings either way, it just seems an odd choice to end on something we know is inevitable.

Edited December 11, 2017 by jcin617

[Iguessnot]

Before I read everything, I just want to say I was so pissed off most of the episode. They were very coy whether Daryl's foolishness caused this, but the main truth is that they didn't kill Negan when he was in their sights.

I'm resigned to the fact that there is really no clarity to the plan. So many episodes on cloak and dagger actions, but just a mere taking out of outposts. And like so many other episodes I couldn't tell who was who. with all these truck convoys. Even with all the killing, Negan has enough forces to stage simultaneous ambushes at Alexandria, Hilltop and the Kingdom. Where were all those vehicles? 

Why was Carl leaving trails of flares?

Michonne, I get you are overwhelmed, but stop yelling when hacking a walker in the middle of an ambush.

I enjoyed the Rick/Negan fight. JDM really does an impressive backwards fall.

Maggie, was on the list for capture. Why was she allowed to return? I know Simon mentioned something about Gregory making a fool of him, but if he gave an explanation, I missed it.

The ending is the only thing that saved this episode for me.  That was poignant, because I was wondering "who" this new Carl was. Loved Rick not saying a word.

[AngelaHunter]

Just now, blackwing said:

Did Carl improve sometime during the last season and a half?  I may go back and catch up.

IMO, not enough for you to bother wasting all that time watching nonsensical, stupid repetitve junk while the Fonz postures and blathers endlessly about his dick and his balls and shitting pants and Rick says to everyone within earshot, including Negan, that he's going to kill him and never does.

However you might want to watch - just for the sheer WTF-ery -  last week's ep, where you get to see the Garbage people doing nude handicrafts and Rick, garbed only in his blue boxer shorts, gives us another Gladiator impression.

[phoenix780]

13 minutes ago, Boofish said:

This show is not about superheroes. I get some of the frustration with the show but I can't get with the list of "invincible" characters. Who can't be bitten, who can't be beat up, who can't cry, who can't fall in love. These were regular people who were lucky enough to survive an apocalypse; not the Justice League.

I think that's an interesting way to describe the show- people lucky enough to survive- because I guess I felt like the show was more about people who banded together and survived through their collective efforts, against the odds.  Maybe I need to readjust my perspective here, because it is just luck that eventually will run out for them all, one finale after another.  I think I'm also a little old school, in that I like the idea of invincible characters.  You watch them get beat up, cry, fall in love, there's some tension around survival (that you choose to buy into because it's a fictional world and you have to let go a little to enjoy it), and you also get to watch them triumph and succeed every now and again, too.  

So thinking about it...this really isn't the story for me, because I think it's totally unbalanced, and they only seem to know how to do one thing to get you to care about the characters they've created.  In truth, I also can't really get into it post-Glenn/Abe because there hasn't been any real justice/vengeance yet, and that scene in the premiere where they all shot the building instead of Negan & co. was kind of...I still don't get how that was anything but stupidity from our protagonists, in a way I can't get over. 

As far as how this helps explain why Rick decides to show mercy to Negan, I'm imagining a long set of scenes where they talk about Carl and what Carl would have wanted.  It probably won't make total sense unless you decide to roll with it, and if they want to rely on shocking character deaths actually killing the main villain would be a good path to take (about their only one, too- we're down to, what, 4 people they can use in this capacity?) so I don't get why they would want to keep Negan alive at all.  But, I can see how they'd go an In Carl's Memory route to keep that character around a bit longer.

[jls1792]

27 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

As for Carl, the walker bite was so lazy and stupid. If TPTB really wanted him gone, they  could have had something like Negan accidentally shooting him, and maybe being shocked,  feeling remorse or questioning his actions, maybe infusing some human traits into him to make him not so one-dimensional and silly.

Yes, I think something like this would have been better.  To think of how much Carl has survived through, this is how he goes?  Getting bit by a walker while fighting them off in the woods when he and the other guy could have just kept walking?  

I like your idea of Negan accidentally shooting Carl and feeling bad.  Or have the explosion hurt Carl enough to kill him.  They could have had Carl's death come from saving Alexandria and getting caught in the crossfire.  Or if they had to do a zombie bite, having him be outnumbered by a swarm might have been a bit better than just trying to fight off a couple walkers for the sake of it.

 

13 minutes ago, Smad said:

Of course time jumps would have been the ideal way to do this. And it really wouldn't have hurt the plot one bit. You can still do all that comic stuff because IMO it doesn't matter when it happens, just that it happens. And when you do a live show as opposed to a comic, characters age and there is nothing that can change that. Especially children will be a major problem there. There was no reason to follow the timeline of the comics because most viewers are the general audience who never read the comics. You can still have all those events from the comic but clinging to things like it's timeline is just stupid.

What is the timeline there? We found out Maggie was pregnant after the time jump in S6. How long has it been between that and where we are now. Hasn't it only been a few weeks? S8 so far has only involved a few days. How much time has passed during S6B until the end of S7?

Yeah, there's no need to follow the comic timeline.  Following a book timeline in real life isn't always possible, especially when you have kids.  They could have easily kept the stories from the comics but spread them out through the timeline. 

I also think part of the problem with determining the timeline is Maggie's pregnancy and Judith.  We found out Maggie was pregnant in season 6.  Judith looked to be about 1.5 or 2 years old.  Now she looks about 2.5 or 3 years old.  Is Judith not aging, she just looks older (like Carl)?  They've had the same twins playing Judith since season 6, which started filming in 2015, so the girls have to be 2.5 or 3 years old now.  So then how far along is Maggie?  You're right, the question is how much time has passed between 6B and now.  And this also goes back to casting kids.  If Judith is still supposed to be 1.5-2 years old, then maybe they should recast so that she still looks that age.

 

11 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

I really have no idea. That's part of the problem. How many viewers know off hand how many years since this started? How many months since they arrived at ASZ? It's all a muddle. Actually, I think her lack of a bump might be realistic time wise, but because of how they drag things out it FEELS like she should be showing by now. It just makes it hard to watch. 

I think someone had a huge post about how much time has passed since the beginning of the show.

We know there was a time jump between seasons 2 and 3 because Lori was 8/9 months pregnant at the beginning of season 3.  So that was about a 3-4 month time jump? And then there was a little time jump between 6x09 and 6x10.

According to this Walking Dead wiki, in season 7, a little over 600 days has passed since the outbreak.  This lists the season 7 finale as day 610.  610 days would be about a year and a half.

http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/The_Walking_Dead_TV_Show_Timeline

 

5 minutes ago, ShadowSixx said:

I call Carl's death Andrea 2.0 death. We didn't see Andrea get bitten just saw her reveal her bite mark and it's over. Only difference is we don't get to hear a gunshot. More than likely Rick put him down before he turned. It's a shame that characters like Carl & Sasha have to leave because they are useful to the group, Sasha being a sniper she could have executed a number of Saviors in this episode and Carl was the John Connor of the show being the future and possibly rebuilding the world. I figured Rick would die before Carl. Yet we still have useless Tara who isn't useful at all, Daryl has contributed next to nothing since arriving in Alexandria and Rosita hasn't been useful for quite a minute.

Carl isn't dead just yet.  He'll die in 8x09.  So we could still see or hear Rick put him down.  Unless he stabs him instead of shooting him

[nodorothyparker]

5 hours ago, ShadowSixx said:

I'm still contemplating on whether or not to continue watching this show. I invested 8 1/2 seasons so don't know whether or not to see it through or not.

Also known as the "sunk cost fallacy," which was explained and illustrated wonderfully on Better Call Saul, a much much better show.  Meaning the more you have invested in something, whether it be emotionally or timewise, the harder you find it to walk away from it regardless of how terrible it may be.  I'm with you in that I tend to be a stickler for seeing any book or TV series I start through to the end and I'm really struggling after now more than a full season and a half of this mess leading to last night's disaster of an episode.

Nothing makes sense any more and so much of the decision making makes even less.  I couldn't make heads or tails out of fully half of what was on my screen.  There are so many characters now that I seldom know who I'm looking at and it means nothing when Maggie is caterwauling about poor dead Neil.  I had no idea most of the episode where most of our bigger players were or why they didn't seem to be regrouping or reacting to what was happening.

The biggest problem in the end though it is that it makes no damn sense to kill Carl and expect this show to be about anything.  If they do little but continue to blow up or torch every structure left standing in every location, where does the rebuilding of the world come in?  They've killed off every child, save Judith of the interchangeable actors, we've had more than two minutes to get to know, so where is the future?  What is the point of any of this?

4 hours ago, Smad said:

See for me with the whole Negan thing and mercy, the only way that would make sense is if either his people or some zombies were to take out Carl. Then Negan saves him because he is fond of the kid. It's so damn easy to that in the story. And it would fix both problems. Makes Negan more human and would be the perfect excuse for Rick to show mercy. I can't see how Carl dying from walker bite ties in in anyway with Negan being shown mercy by Rick. For Rick (not other characters) to show mercy to Negan, Negan would have to actively be in a situation where he saves Carl (or Judith). Anything else doesn't make sense.

This would have at least made sense.  They had an episode last season? where Carl and Negan seemed to find some kind of small understanding or respect for each other.  Why not build on that and give Negan a wholly unexpected save?  Putting Rick begrudgingly in Negan's debt or Negan unable to pull the trigger on a kid he found himself liking despite everything else might have actually made for some interesting television if they're hellbent on keeping Negan around.

[JackONeill]

7 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Question.

When Rick was walking the tunnel they focused on Tara who looked up and quickly put her head down and Daryl who never looked up.

Was that because of sorrow over Carl's impending death? Meekness because they betrayed Rick? Or did their previous actions lead to Carl getting bit?

Good questions. And, as is typical with this show, we'll never know. And it's because they cannot let people think. Everyone is merely an action figure. There have been so many wasted opportunities with this show. We could see some truly wonderful emotions, from all sides of the spectrum. But, alas, the only thing that floats the boat of the child-like Kirkman and Gimple is the newest way to kill a Walker. It's what they get off on.

[Kiki777]

25 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

The bite is old. He got bit in The King, The Widow, and Rick. When he and Siddiq were in the woods. I rewatched it this morning and in retrospect, I could tell something was up - even though we don't literally see the bite.

Came to post that I just did the same.  It's the kind of thing you only see if you're looking for it - the walker's face is offscreen for a bit, then comes up and there is a small scrap of green material between its teeth (Coral was wearing a green shirt) but it's just for a split second before he shoots the walker in he head. 

I also watched the end of the MSF with the brightness setting turned up to the point where everything looked washed out.  That was Siddiq in the sewers with the rest of the group- it was hard to tell last night.  Well I hope he sticks around bc he's cute and yay diversity, there's a token Indian dude in the ZA.  Though as someone here hilariously pointed out in the 'Some Guy' thread, what with the deaths of Glenn and Shiva, Asians aren't having good luck lately on this show....

[ShadowSixx]

2 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Also known as the "sunk cost fallacy," which was explained and illustrated wonderfully on Better Call Saul, a much much better show.  Meaning the more you have invested in something, whether it be emotionally or timewise, the harder you find it to walk away from it regardless of how terrible it may be.  I'm with you in that I tend to be a stickler for seeing any book or TV series I start through to the end and I'm really struggling after now more than a full season and a half of this mess leading to last night's disaster of an episode.

 

I actually gave up watching 3 shows because they turned stupid. I stopped watching Days of Our Lives, Young & The Restless & Revenge. Soaps are pretty much neverending unless they get cancelled but Revenge I never saw all the way through because it got too stupid. Like Revenge, TWD is a victim of its own success.

[Boofish]

2 minutes ago, phoenix780 said:

I think that's an interesting way to describe the show- people lucky enough to survive- because I guess I felt like the show was more about people who banded together and survived through their collective efforts, against the odds.  Maybe I need to readjust my perspective here, because it is just luck that eventually will run out for them all, one finale after another.  I think I'm also a little old school, in that I like the idea of invincible characters.  You watch them get beat up, cry, fall in love, there's some tension around survival (that you choose to buy into because it's a fictional world and you have to let go a little to enjoy it), and you also get to watch them triumph and succeed every now and again, too.  

So thinking about it...this really isn't the story for me, because I think it's totally unbalanced, and they only seem to know how to do one thing to get you to care about the characters they've created.  In truth, I also can't really get into it post-Glenn/Abe because there hasn't been any real justice/vengeance yet, and that scene in the premiere where they all shot the building instead of Negan & co. was kind of...I still don't get how that was anything but stupidity from our protagonists, in a way I can't get over. 

As far as how this helps explain why Rick decides to show mercy to Negan, I'm imagining a long set of scenes where they talk about Carl and what Carl would have wanted.  It probably won't make total sense unless you decide to roll with it, and if they want to rely on shocking character deaths actually killing the main villain would be a good path to take (about their only one, too- we're down to, what, 4 people they can use in this capacity?) so I don't get why they would want to keep Negan alive at all.  But, I can see how they'd go an In Carl's Memory route to keep that character around a bit longer.

I agree with you. Where my issue lies is in thinking certain characters are immune to certain emotions and or no opponent or bullet is strong enough to take them down. I don't begrudge others their way of thinking but I find it interesting how people create narratives over time based on pass behaviors.

When Carl said "there are women and children here; my little sister is here" Trying to reason with Negan knowing he sort of softened around Judith. I agreed when Negan threw it back at him "what about the little girl at my compound" Now granted Negan and Carl don't know Gracie was saved by Rick so it made the argument very legitimate. I get that the saviors can't go around killing people at will for various idiotic reasons and for the most part more than a few of them need to die because they have just decided to not live in a civilized world. But just like none of the other communities deserve what happened to them neither do all the saviors. 

There is a part of me that hopes they show Negan mercy. This world needs a few people like him to thrive but he needs to be controlled.

[HighMaintenance]

1 hour ago, AngelaHunter said:

Maybe if we pretend this show is a zany, slapstick comedy, mentally add things like cartoon "boinggs" and Batman "Biff" and "Pow!!" or think of it as a parody it could be more palatable.

We already have that - it's called Z Nation and it's pretty darn good as a zombie/comedy show.

[Mu Shu]

1 hour ago, Boofish said:

I want everyone who did not like this episode to line up and say you're sorry. The person with the lamest apology dies :) 

I’m sorry.  I was in a bad mood and constipated.  I didn’t want to admit to being constipated.  At least I won’t need shittin’ pants if I’m chosen. 

[Wouldofshouldof]

12 hours ago, ShadowSixx said:

Only good thing about this episode was the small scene between Michonne & Judith. 

You mean the scene where Michonne walked away and seemingly left Judith alone by the pond, lol?  : )

[Ottis]

13 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

They are still in the exact same place as they were when this season started?  Where the previous season ended?  Where the season before that ended?  Are you kidding me?

This should not be a surprise. It's been true for years now, since end of season three. It's why I stopped watching a few episodes into season four, and now I just catch up on the finales. I'm not missing anything.

[KirkB]

I don't necessarily have a problem with a Negan-like person in the ZA. A ruthless individual is more likely to do well because he will kill and take what he wants and that spells survival. It can also make for an interesting character to watch. He's not ideal for long term survival though, and he's certainly no good as the foundation for a new society, or even a settlement. It's made worse in this case by JDM (who is clearly having a good time) being as loud and obnoxious as is humanly possible, and while it may be amusing for some it can get tiresome for others pretty quick.

And where I think there is a big disconnect for me and the show is that they seem to have mostly abandoned what I thought its original mission statement was: survival. Family and friends trying to get by in a world where everything and everyone else wants to eat you. Granted, the idea of survival was diminished early on by the fact everyone is infected, which means there really is no hope for humanity anyway. Now it's all about crushing peoples skulls and bragging about how big your dick is. It's flash and no substance. People getting killed used to be a big deal, now people get wiped out in droves and we barely know any of their names. I saw more people bothered by a CGI tiger dying than the fact 3/4 of Ezekial's people were wiped out by a wave of automatic gun fire.

I don't hate TWD (if I did I would stop watching, I don't do hate-watching) but I don't love it like I used to. If my apathy grows too much more I won't stop watching so much as I may forget to.

Edited December 11, 2017 by KirkB

[Johnny Dollar]

I quit watching this aggravating show after the infamous “Let’s not kill Negan, let’s go for the windows!”  first episode. But I know the mid season finale always has a big ending. I asked my brother to catch me up and he said “Absolutely nothing has changed from the first episode, but Carl will be dead soon, just like everyone knew when he said he was going to college next year.”  I guess that pretty much sums up this year. 

[SillyOldClothCat]

39 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I haven't watched this show since the early episodes of last season when I gave up in disgust.  I recall people here always hating Carl and making fun of him and his hat.  Watched last night's episode because I heard talk in the media that many were speculating Carl would die.  Came here expecting a chorus of "hallelujah at long last we are free of Carl" and I am a bit surprised to see so much lamenting that he was the center of the show.  

Did Carl improve sometime during the last season and a half?  I may go back and catch up.

Yes, at some point he grew up and stopped being annoying. I've seen that happen with kids in real life, too.

[nodorothyparker]

Reminder than we don't allow spoiler or comic specific talk in episode threads.  Posts that contain either have been removed.

[Mu Shu]

58 minutes ago, Boofish said:

Honestly it makes more sense to me. Someone continually taking chances he don't need to take, trying to save everyone he meets (while noble not so smart) and constantly putting himself in harms way makes more sense that he would die like this rather than in a blaze of glory.  A character like Eugene dying like that would be sillier to me because he is all about Eugene.

Sort of like Steve Irwin not dying by croc or snake, but a benign stingray.

i take issue however that it happened because some stupid rando was “setting souls free.” Fuck that.  Didn’t Morgan basically do that as “clearing”, and in a far superior way?  

I am amazed thatTobin lives.  I swear he dies every episode, but always comes back for the next one.

can they just keep Negan alive in a tiger cage, but with his tongue removed?   I’m so sick of hearing the word dick.  Someone is obsessed with their penis size and lack of machismo in writing this dreck.  

[jls1792]

46 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I haven't watched this show since the early episodes of last season when I gave up in disgust.  I recall people here always hating Carl and making fun of him and his hat.  Watched last night's episode because I heard talk in the media that many were speculating Carl would die.  Came here expecting a chorus of "hallelujah at long last we are free of Carl" and I am a bit surprised to see so much lamenting that he was the center of the show.  

Did Carl improve sometime during the last season and a half?  I may go back and catch up.

As someone on here said, whether you liked Carl or not, he was pretty much the heart of the show.  I told my sister, who has pretty much stopped watching the show, what happened to Carl and she said while she didn't like him that much that she thought it was a dumb thing to do.  Carl has been built up to be the hope for the future.  He was Rick's reason for living and fighting.  And Carl was sort of that bridge from the world pre-apocalypse to the present and future.  I sort of see it as three different tiers.  There's Judith, who will only ever know this world, there's Rick and the other adults who had to adapt to this world, and then Carl was sort of in between.  He was old enough to remember life before the outbreak, but he was still very young and had to learn to live in this world.  So while he knows what the world was like before, in many ways, he had to grow up in this new world.  

[festivus]

37 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Also known as the "sunk cost fallacy," which was explained and illustrated wonderfully on Better Call Saul, a much much better show.  Meaning the more you have invested in something, whether it be emotionally or timewise, the harder you find it to walk away from it regardless of how terrible it may be.  I'm with you in that I tend to be a stickler for seeing any book or TV series I start through to the end and I'm really struggling after now more than a full season and a half of this mess leading to last night's disaster of an episode.

I was like this with Smallville. I was invested in Chloe and I had to see the show through to the end even though I spent most of my time yelling at the TV. I have since learned from that experience and I have no *almost no problem dropping a show now. 

*I was having trouble dropping this one because I just kept hoping that it would get back in some way to being the show I used to love. But with the death of Glenn, the inexplicable continued existence of Negan, the stupidest people ever Garbage Pail Kids, Michonne being a ghost, etc and on and on, I know I'm never getting that show back. With Carl dead, I'm done. 

[jls1792]

2 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

I think the silence of the cast is deafening.  Usually, after a major death, we hear from how the cast reacted, what the 'death dinner' was like.  This time...crickets.  Andy gives an interview DRIPPING with subtext.  I want Gimple to regret this.  I want him to be sent back to the pit of failed writers where he belongs.  He NEVER should have been made showrunner.

I wonder if they're waiting until 8x09 to show all the reaction stuff since that's technically when Carl dies?  I know some people have said showing that Carl is going to die but waiting until the premiere to kill him is stupid because he takes away the momentum.  I kind of get what they mean.  We know Carl's dead but he's not dead yet.  It won't be a surprise when it happens in a couple months.  And since he's basically already dead, waiting to show all the cast reactions and whatnot will not have quite the same impact as it would have now when it was revealed. 

 

Chandler's dad posted this on his Zombie road trip page in response to a fan:

Quote

Watching Gimple fire my son 2 weeks before his 18th birthday after telling him they wanted him for the next 3 years was disappointing.  I never trusted Gimple or AMC but Chandler did.  I know how much it hurt him.  But we do absolutely know how lucky we have been to be a part of it all and appreciate all the love from fans all these years!

[sigmaforce86]

I feel like I should be sadder that Carl's going to die and I'm not.  I don't hate the kid or the actor, in fact I think Chandler has done some really great work especially this past season.   It does at least make me curious what happens going forward, to Rick and his motivation, to Michonne and to Daryl and Carol, the only other two originals left from CDB.  But it oddly doesn't make me "sad".

I'll take specifics to another thread but at a certain point in the episode I thought a moment from the comics was coming.  So much that I actually yelled ""Oh my god I think they're going to do (X) to (person)!""   They didn't, not sure if that means it's yet to come or they're not doing it.  Since we know they deviate, combine characters and move plots around it's impossible to tell or even say this show really "follows" the comics.

Question, Question, Question:  Anyone know who played Savior "AL"?  He's the guy that was in the pen with Gregory and the savior that Maggie shot.  He had about two sentences and a close up.  No big deal but he looks really familiar and I can't find his real name in the cast lists so just curious if he looks like another actor and that's why he's familiar or if I've seen him in something before.

[mightysparrow]

3 minutes ago, jls1792 said:

Chandler's dad posted this on his Zombie road trip page in response to a fan:

Quote

Watching Gimple fire my son 2 weeks before his 18th birthday after telling him they wanted him for the next 3 years was disappointing.  I never trusted Gimple or AMC but Chandler did.  I know how much it hurt him.  But we do absolutely know how lucky we have been to be a part of it all and appreciate all the love from fans all these years!

  This show has a history of treating actors badly but Chandler deserved better than this.  He grew up on this show.  Oh, I hate Gimple!

[AlwaysWatching]

5 hours ago, CrashTextDummie said:

 

I would even call this mid season finale decent if everything leading up to it wasn't so stupid. Take Carl for example, why is he dying again? Oh right, two episodes ago he decided to go out of his way to kill a horde of walkers bare-handed "to honor random aquaintance's mom", and even though the cast of this show by now has killed literal thousands of walkers without breaking a sweat, this time he got bit because the plot armor came off. It's not a meaningful death, it's the definition of a pointless one. It's many things: a little sad, a little shocking and a lot stupid.

 

Oh, so much THIS. I didn't even mention Carl in my post way up thread because I was still too raw.  I thought about it quite a bit late, late last night and it was the stupidity of how Carl got bitten that actually kept me awake.  When you start to see and feel what's going on in the writer's room instead of getting lost in the story like you are "there", you know it's time to either accept glaring crap done for no reason or decide to finally. stop. watching.

[Bryce Lynch]

Why is there such an obsession with Gabriel and now Eugene with getting the doctor back to the Hilltop to deliver Maggie and Glenn's baby?  Maggie looks about negative 2 months pregnant, it's not like her water has broken.  Also, while Maggie's baby is important, there are hundreds of other lives at stake at the same time. (We are in the middle of "All Out War", you know).  If KAH (or whatever Eugene calls them) don't win the "All Out War", Neagan will certainly return the doctor to wherever his new headquarters are, and Maggie will probably be killed anyway.

[JackONeill]

42 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

  This show has a history of treating actors badly but Chandler deserved better than this.  He grew up on this show.  Oh, I hate Gimple!

I suspect all the actors on the show have the same level of antipathy toward Simple-Gimple and child-like Kirkman, but most of them (all?) can't really show it because if they did they'd get fired and except for Andrew Lincoln I'm not sure if any of them could take that risk. (Yes, I do know that some of them have done, and are going, other things. But seriously, none of them are Tom Hanks or Julia Roberts as far as having near 100% job security.)(Trust me- I mean no disrespect to the cast.)

Edited December 11, 2017 by JackONeill

[Macbeth]

4 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

If this story continues to move at the speed with which it has been, Coral isn't going to finish dying until Season 12.

Seriously.  The series may get cancelled by the time Carl actually dies.

[heisenberg]

The messing up with the timeline and the plot going all over the place makes me think of "Lost".

[bosawks]

To paraphrase T.S. Eliot,

“This is how my interest ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.”

― T.S. Eliot

[Macbeth]

3 hours ago, talktalk said:

What a ridiculous episode and what a lousy play writing! Even if Eugene is clever, he sure isn't a miracle worker. How did he free the saviors from the herd of walkers? That was never even explained, maybe because they can't? 

This article at Fortune magazine said it perfectly, this show has become a BAD joke! https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2017/12/10/the-walking-dead-season-8-midseason-finale-review-what-a-joke/#73503790357c

Completely agree.  And thanks for the link.  This show makes no sense anymore.  All of a sudden Negan has his army back in full force when we saw only  a handful of security guys back at the main office a couple of episodes ago? 

And they have rocket launchers?  Didn't CDB seize their armory - if they didn't take have the personnel to take the goods why didn't they blow it up?

And CDB's army should have surrounded the main office.  They have them surrounded, Daryl plows a truck into a building, and then they walk away?  Hope for the best? 

With these writers -just because Carl was bitten doesn't mean he will die.  They have no respect for the rules governing this universe.

So Rick et all are in a worse position then they were at the end of last season.   Now a good deal of the houses were destroyed at Alexandria and a few survivors are living in the sewer.   

They are filming in the dark in the hopes we won't see how much on this screen is actual shit.

[SimoneS]

6 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

With these writers -just because Carl was bitten doesn't mean he will die.  They have no respect for the rules governing this universe.

Anyone who is bitten gets sick, dies, and turns if their brains are not destroyed.. That is the rule.

[tiredofwork]

They seemed to have been trying to kill Carl off a body part at a time anyway, so this puts him out of his misery.., They took his eye..., I think on certainly one 1 occasion, maybe 2, Negan was going to have Carl's arm hacked off my Rick to teach a lesson.. so, this is like "mercy".

The luster of the show certainly has been lost from the early years..  I am not at all familiar with the comic books so know nothing of any of the character's portrayed in those versus the TV show.. But it seems like they get all hyped to bring on a character from the comic then they don't know what to do with them after doing so... The excitement is there to introduce but they have no plan beyond..

I think I am most disappointed at how they brought back Morgan.. I don't like overly complex/conflicted characters and he is just too extra in that dept..   I also think his "Kane/Kung Fu, Ninja stick fighting" is lame and out of place.

Finally, it appears we are right now back to the point where the crew was lost after being overrun and burned out from Herschel's farm and before they found the prison...  What's next? go North? West? East? or back down South?  AND..., how long do they think they can "hide" in the sewer?   If the Saviors decide to camp out in what is left of Alexandria for any period of time, then sooner or later someone will say.. Hey, where do these sewers lead too???  Or.. the fact that any sounds, etc.. can resonate OUTSIDE the system through the vented covers.... might give their little hiding place away.

Edited December 11, 2017 by tiredofwork

[paigow]

Unless you can amputate the bitten area immediately...liver not included