S08.E03: Monsters

[Glaze Crazy]

I agree with what Morgan tells Jesus: "I'm not right, but I'm not wrong either." This applies to just about everyone's actions this episode. Just who are the "Monsters?" I think bringing a character from the first season back to show how most of these "regular" people ended up at this place was another layer to that question. Rick and Morales started from about the same place but their circumstances over the next two years led them to different places in this current world. All these groups formed with people who probably joined them for the most simple reason: safety in a group vs. alone. That the group they end up with is more evil than righteous is kind of a crap-shoot since at any given moment it's pretty random which one you will come in contact with. The majority of each group will just go along to get along. It's not right but it's not wrong.

Rick and Co. are only the "good guys" in that it's their story that's been followed from the beginning, vs. the other random groups who pop into Rick and Co.'s story without having much of their own backstories known to us. With the exception of probably Glenn, everyone else in CDB have been ruthless or kind in different situations, killing or sparing lives, accepting or rejecting others that cross their paths, and showing many levels of morality or humanity over the course of their time on the screen. The other two groups that have allied with CDB seem to be basically of the same caliber, albeit with different leadership styles. These 3 groups do have the one moral standard in common, they don't subjugate another group for their benefit and don't give back. That's what makes them slightly better than Negan's group or Jadis' group. (I'm leaving out the Seaside Women group that got their guns taken by Rick from this mix right now. They might turn out to be the ones who drag CDB into the darker side from that action, if they aren't shown to be compensated by and allied with the rest of our heroes at some point.)

So there were a lot of "I'm not right, but I'm not wrong" actions. Jesus shows a moral, human heart but it's very misplaced at this point in whatever the plan was for the day. The 3 groups joined together to break the chains to Negan's group in a massive firefight being staged at several different locations and without any contact between them while it was going down. They apparently did not make a plan to take a bunch of prisoners of war and contain them. So Jesus wanting to march a bunch of "surrendered" guys back to any of the communities was a very bad decision this day in regards to the safety of their own non combatant people. Should they have just killed the whole bunch of them or just let them go instead? Yeah, I wouldn't want to make that call either. This group definitely had some issues with how to proceed once those guys surrendered to them.

Rick and Daryl as good cop/bad cop was another dilemma. Clearly Daryl is over it AFA anyone connected with Negan at all. Anyone who's said they are "Negan" is dead if he's within crossbow range. I think Rick would have tried to talk Morales down and reasoned with him, using their past association. Would it have worked? I guess we'll never know, but it shows that Rick himself is not completely ruthless, at least in some situations. Plus he doesn't call Daryl out despite Daryl killing two different guys blindside, without much hesitation. I'm guessing Rick really doesn't much care to analyze it further since Daryl is his BFF. And Rick remembered to go back and get the baby.

Maggie letting Gregory back into Hilltop and now considering what to do with Jesus' POW's now standing out side the gates is another "glad that's not my decision" situation. Now Jesus has brought his attempt to be moral home for Maggie to make the final decision about. As I said, there was not a plan to contain any hostiles at this point so putting Maggie on the spot on this issue was wrong. Jesus might not like it, but if Maggie just mowed the whole group down now she wouldn't be any more wrong than right at this point. Even if she tossed Gregory out there with them before opening fire.

Ezekiel's group walking into the firefight at their destination was so foreshadowed it was ridiculous. All his constant pontificating while his group was moving was OTT, but I guess we already know that's how he rolls. I hope the tiger is OK. And Carol. She's back in killing gear and will probably be the one to take out the majority of the Saviours, at least until Rick and Daryl make it over there.

Sad that Eric died and walked off on Aaron. I was afraid Aaron would die himself while trying to put a knife in Eric's brain. But agreed, Aaron had a rifle why didn't he just take a shot from a distance? At least don't leave Eric's corpse to wander the countryside if you might be able to end it completely.

I know this show is not any great literary masterpiece but I am intrigued by some of the things it makes me consider. Like how to survive a ZA at any given point. Especially the fellow survivors part of it.

[peach]

I watched about 20 minutes, and I just can't take it.  I can't even hate watch it it's so bad.   If I were one of the Saviors I would never surrender because the "good guys" are so fucking dumb.  I now understand Eugene's decision.

Also, if Tara agrees with Morgan, then why does Jesus get his way?  If those three represent the three communities, then Jesus is outvoted.  They should have tied HIM up until they got back to the Hilltop.  He's obviously not going to do anything about it later. 

I have betrayed myself by even writing this much about this stupid, stupid show.

Edited November 6, 2017 by peach

[Star Aristille]

50 minutes ago, Anela said:

These guys are happily killing for Negan, and that one taunting guy was the one who killed the teenager, right? I guess they're saving him up for a grisly death.

Probably courtesy of Morgan.  I really can't see anyone else taking Jared out other than he.

[Gobi]

I would imagine that randomly moving the weapons around from outpost to outpost was SOP. It would be a sensible thing to do.

[Ohwell]

They better not kill Jerry.  I'm just sayin'.

[Lillith]

11 hours ago, Bad Example said:

This. 

Jesus, honey... a guy taunting you has not "surrendered".   It's bad enough you don't have the resources to deal with people who may be giving a real surrender-- that guy needed to go. 
 

Like others have said, I don't think she believed him.  I think she decided he's just too pathetic to give a moment's thought to.  This, of course, will later bite her in the ass.

As for her acting, she's never really bothered me the way she bothers a lot of other people.  But last night?  I agree with you.  That was so, SO BAD.  


And finally, as for the rolling walkers:  To me they didn't just fall down the hill but seemed to be gleefully throwing themselves down the hill.  It both took me out of the scene and cracked me up.  

The rolling walkers were the only thing that really amused me last night. I really wished at least one had groaned "Wheeee!" as they were rolling down that hill. 

Edited November 6, 2017 by Lillith

[SnarkyTart]

2 hours ago, KirkB said:

That...is actually a really good point. Assuming Negan is smart enough to come up with such a plan. He certainly doesn't trust anyone but himself and it wouldn't be wise for him to just start randomly slaughtering his lieutenants on the chance one or more of them were working against him, so this whole thing as some kind of twisted loyalty test would not bode well for Dwight.

It is a good plan.  But, even assuming Negan is smart enough to come up with such a plan, TWD writers are not.

[raven]

Why was Morales (I know, he's dead, who cares) so angry at Rick?  I mean, Morales left on his own.   Still, Daryl popping up to shoot him with an arrow was funny.

The another annoying issue with the Jesus-save-em-all attitude is, wasn't that talked about before the "war" began?  Rick wanted to give the Saviors a chance to surrender before fighting..didn't they discuss whether or not to take prisoners and accept surrenders during fighting?  Obviously not.  Or maybe they did and Jesus decided to do his own thing.

Also, if Aaron couldn't bring himself to put down Eric (come on, I mean, Carl shot his own MOTHER) then other guy who I believe is Sonequa Martin-Green's real life husband should have done so.  Eric's a fresh zombie, don't need more of those.

2 hours ago, Glaze Crazy said:

I know this show is not any great literary masterpiece but I am intrigued by some of the things it makes me consider. Like how to survive a ZA at any given point. Especially the fellow survivors part of it.

This is how I felt in the beginning but it feels like the show circles this theme constantly and not in a good way.  I can appreciate that the same question may arise in different circumstances but it just feels repetitive.  Plus the show has shown over and over that if you do the right thing, you, or someone you love, is gong to pay dearly for it.   I still can't quit the character of Rick but maybe taking the pre-emptive strike against the Saviors wasn't the best idea at the time - this comment isn't directed at you, I'm just thinking in general.

If the characters are going to question their own motives, I'd like to see this point brought up, especially with Jesus who now is against killing unarmed Saviors for some reason, since it was his idea to take out a bunch of sleeping Saviors.  Lock up the experienced fighters in trailers?  Even with guards, how is that going to work?  Everyone at Hilltop isn't out fighting for a reason; some are guards, but as Maggie said, there are children and families there. 

I give Maggie more of a pass because it's more in character for her to let Gregory in, plus he's one guy.  She can have him watched - or maybe she has plans for him. 

[FishyJoe]

Ok, fine don't kill people. But it would be perfectly reasonable to knock that guys teeth out for talking smack. 

And letting a known traitor off scott free? They might ask well put a sign up on the hilltop saying, KILL US PLEASE!

[ShadowSixx]

What's really confusing me about Jesus is what would he have done if he was with Aaron's group? What would he say to Aaron, "No don't kill them, just throw the bullets at them." What would he have said to Zeke & Carol? Jesus knows what they're doing so why does he want hostages? Jesus would have told Aaron, Carol & Zeke to just point their guns at the Saviors and they'll surrender like a true idiot.

[SimoneS]

12 hours ago, peach said:

Also, if Tara agrees with Morgan, then why does Jesus get his way?  If those three represent the three communities, then Jesus is outvoted.  They should have tied HIM up until they got back to the Hilltop.  He's obviously not going to do anything about it later. 

I didn't get that one either. Why didn't Tara and Morgan just mow down the prisoners anyway or knock out Jesus? Also, why didn't they ask Jesus how he expects to feed all of them when they barely have enough food for themselves? None of it makes any sense which means that the show just made Jesus an instant pacifist for drama's sake. Of course, when it backfires, he won't admit that he was wrong. Too bad it doesn't look like he is dying time so because he deserves it.

Edited November 7, 2017 by SimoneS

[SnarkyTart]

4 minutes ago, ShadowSixx said:

What's really confusing me about Jesus is what would he have done if he was with Aaron's group? What would he say to Aaron, "No don't kill them, just throw the bullets at them." What would he have said to Zeke & Carol? Jesus knows what they're doing so why does he want hostages? Jesus would have told Aaron, Carol & Zeke to just point their guns at the Saviors and they'll surrender like a true idiot.

Those are all good points.  As is the point someone upthread mentioned, that surely CDB while planning this assault must have talked about what they'd do with the saviors they had (foolishly) hoped would surrender.  As is the point someone else mentioned upthread that it was Jesus who originally led CDB into the ill-conceived fool's errand to draw first blood by acting as mercenaries for Gregory's hilltop, and murder the saviors in their sleep. 

The obvious answer would be that Jesus is a double agent working for Negan, which would also answer the question about how Negan knew to move the guns.  Though somehow I just can't credit the showrunners with the ability to pull off that kind of a plot twist without dropping so many anvils on the way there that the viewers wouldn't see it coming from miles away.

3 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Also, why didn't they ask Jesus how he expects to feed all of them when they barely have enough food for themselves?

By turning stones into fish and loaves of bread?

[Ohwell]

5 minutes ago, SnarkyTart said:

The obvious answer would be that Jesus is a double agent working for Negan, which would also answer the question about how Negan knew to move the guns.  Though somehow I just can't credit the showrunners with the ability to pull off that kind of a plot twist without dropping so many anvils on the way there that the viewers wouldn't see it coming from miles away.

I have always side-eyed ninja Jesus, never liked him, so I can certainly believe that he's been working for Negan all along.

[BellyLaughter]

So Jesus and his ninja fighting skills have decided to go the route of pacifist now?  Zzzzzzzzzz. 

Give me Daryl and his complete loss of patience with all idiots and assholes anyday over Jesus preaching and Ezekiel's stories/philosophy lessons that take an eternity for him to deliver..... 

Still mulling over Morales and his anger at Rick....he barely knew Rick but I guess losing your family, your morality and listening to Negan rattle on and on and on can do that to a man!  RIP Morales.

[Anela]

24 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I didn't get that one either. Why didn't Tara and Morgan just mow down the prisoners anyway or knock out Jesus? Also, why didn't they ask Jesus how he expects to feed all of them when they barely have enough food for themselves? None of it makes any sense which means that the show just made Jesus an instant pacifist for drama's sakes. Of course, when it backfires, he won't admit that he was wrong. Too bad it doesn't look like he is dying time so because he deserves it.

I wondered about feeding them, too. 

21 minutes ago, SnarkyTart said:

Those are all good points.  As is the point someone upthread mentioned, that surely CDB while planning this assault must have talked about what they'd do with the saviors they had (foolishly) hoped would surrender.  As is the point someone else mentioned upthread that it was Jesus who originally led CDB into the ill-conceived fool's errand to draw first blood by acting as mercenaries for Gregory's hilltop, and murder the saviors in their sleep. 

The obvious answer would be that Jesus is a double agent working for Negan, which would also answer the question about how Negan knew to move the guns.  Though somehow I just can't credit the showrunners with the ability to pull off that kind of a plot twist without dropping so many anvils on the way there that the viewers wouldn't see it coming from miles away.

By turning stones into fish and loaves of bread?

That was me, I think, but I'd forgotten that it was for Gregory. So he got them into this in the first place. 

[ShadowSixx]

Also with Jesus telling CDB about the Saviors outpost he was also there at the end of S7 fighting alongside everyone and they were killing Saviors. Jesus didn't open his mouth or say anything about how wrong it was killin them. So I don't understand this sudden turn. Writers better come up with something to explain all this. Bad writing can really ruin a character. I'm not hating Jesus yet, but I'm getting there if he keeps this up.

[AngelKitty]

I spend a lot of time yelling "SHOOT HIM IN THE HEAD" while watching this show. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. 

[SoSueMe]

2 hours ago, Lillith said:

The rolling walkers were the only thing that really amused me last night. I really wished at least one had groaned "Wheeee!" as they were rolling down that hill. 

So fun! For anyone who has watched Z Nation, it was reminiscent of the zombie cheese wheel :) 

[AngelaHunter]

Lawdy, lawdy. Just watched. I actually burst out laughing at the chain gang of tied Savior prisoners. I was expecting them to start singing some mournful song on their way to their captivity. Jesus, you are an irritating little shit. Morgan has gone 180 degrees to murder machine, so live with it and STFU. Okay, the rolling zombies were damned funny too.

Rick and Morales: Do people really stand and talk and talk and talk while holding a gun to someone's head, long enough to give that person a chance to get away/fight back/come up with a plan? So they stand there arguing over who has lost the most people, Rick trying madly to save his hide and Morales, well, I don't really know or care what he was blabbering about. Then Thunk! Daryl shoots him dead. Just like that. He doesn't give a rat's ass who he is. This is the first time I've liked Daryl since I don't know when. Daryl is sik of ur bullshit and wants u to STFU.

Then more of the Savior slaves, Jesus and Morgan Ku Fu fighting on and on and on. I was hoping at least to see Jesus do at least one backflip, but nada. How I was wishing one of the Saviors would get loose and kill both of them, just to make them STFU.

The King gives rousing and inspirational speeches while Carol smirks sardonically. Rah Rah! We shall arise! We shall be triumphant - oh, please just STFU!!!

Maggie/Elly Mae who emotes by pulling down the corners of her mouth, lets the old perve come back in after he talks and talks and talks.... you STFU too. Enid has more sense than Maggie. Maybe Enid should run Hilltop.

Jesus returns with his gang of prisoners. Gee, I hope they have a huge surplus of food there, what all these new mouths to feed.

Then Rick and Daryl find someone (a Savior I guess) and Rick promises him safety if he comes out in the open. He does so and starts blabbering about something or other and Bang! Daryl shoots him dead. Now I'm loving Daryl. He actually knows how to make people STFU!

[Guest]

1 hour ago, BellyLaughter said:

Still mulling over Morales and his anger at Rick....he barely knew Rick but I guess losing your family, your morality and listening to Negan rattle on and on and on can do that to a man!  RIP Morales.

I think that Morales is angry at "Rick from Alexandria" who he didn't know was the same Rick he knew ages ago.  Realizing they were the same Rick didn't eliminate his anger.  The question is how much of that anger is based on the pre-emptive attack on the Saviors and how much is based on Negan's propaganda.

[ShadowHunter]

15 hours ago, spacefly said:

Did he also leave Dale out of his monologue of tragedy? 

He left a lot of people out. Its funny for some reason him not bringing up Sophia stayed with me more then anything else.

[hoosiermommy]

11 hours ago, Nashville said:

Well... while we know where the Saviors have ended up, we know nothing of how they got here.  Morales said he and his family “never made it to Birmingham” (indicating they got killed en route somewhere between Atlanta and B’ham), he went to curl up and die in a truck trailer or some such, and was “found” by the Saviors.  Which leaves us with two options:

1. The Saviors have/had a MASSIVE scouting network which covered at least half of the eastern U. S.; or,
2. The Saviors themselves were a roaming group at the time, moving through roughly the same geographical area, when Morales was found and picked up by a short-range recon group scouting around the main party.

#1 is ridiculous - CDB would have encountered them several times on the walkabout from ATL to DC, at the very least - so I’m leaning towards #2.

My bet is on #3: the writers failed geography and believed that an audience that relies on GPS instead of maps wouldn't recognize the geographic problem.

[AllyS]

34 minutes ago, ShadowHunter said:

He left a lot of people out. Its funny for some reason him not bringing up Sophia stayed with me more then anything else.

IMHO, mentioning Sophia would have probably gained him some ground considering his daughter was friends with Sophia and gave her the doll. It's all a moot point since Daryl is back to his old self, kicking asses and taking names. Go Daryl! Morales need a big, tall drink of my favorite beverage STFU! It should be served to many of the cast.

[Anela]

14 hours ago, riverheightsnancy said:

It is a massive stretch IMO that Morales ended up in the same area of Virginia after being in Georgia and heading towards Alabama. Rick's crew headed towards Atlanta and then DC.  All the millions of acres of land in between those destinations, it just breaches all sense of rationality for me. What Negan's crew extends that far? No way. Atlanta and Virginia (where Rick's crew is), are NOT that close. I have driven it, I know. 

That bugged me, too. I was wondering how he was supposed to have been found by them, that far away. I would have bought them ending up at terminus, but what a horrible thought that is (although death by zombie isn't better, just terrifying in a different way). 

Who is the guy who was sitting with Tara, in the back of the truck? The same one I noticed talking to Maggie, in another episode. Oh, this is the guy: http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Eduardo_(TV_Series)

Edited November 7, 2017 by Anela

[AngelaHunter]

5 hours ago, Glaze Crazy said:

. I think Rick would have tried to talk Morales down and reasoned with him, using their past association. Would it have worked? I guess we'll never know, but it shows that Rick himself is not completely ruthless, at least in some situations.

He only tried to talk him down because Morales got the jump on him, he had a gun aimed at his head and Rick is a good talker. We don't know what would have happened had it occured the other way around because my new friend Daryl dropped him in his tracks, mid-blather. That was the only action that made any sense to me in this entire episode.

ETA: Oooh, maybe something interesting will actually happen next week if Daryl finds out the newly-benevolent Jesus brought back a whole bunch of houseguests.

Edited November 7, 2017 by AngelaHunter

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, ParadoxLost said:

I think that Morales is angry at "Rick from Alexandria" who he didn't know was the same Rick he knew ages ago.  Realizing they were the same Rick didn't eliminate his anger.  The question is how much of that anger is based on the pre-emptive attack on the Saviors and how much is based on Negan's propaganda.

The saviors have freaking nerve. They run around attacking and brutally murdering people they encounter and are full of self-righteous anger when other groups take them on. Everyone of them needs to be fed to the walkers alive. As happy as I was when Daryl killed Morales in the midst of his dumbass Negan monologue, it would have been most satisfying if he had been eaten alive.

[rmontro]

Jesus suddenly finding a conscience and not wanting to kill the Saviors drives me so crazy because it comes completely out of left field.  Meanwhile, Morgan, who used to be against killing, is now completely bloodthirsty.  This show is all over the place, but at least Morgan's story makes some sort of sense.

[CletusMusashi]

13 hours ago, Nashville said:

Well... while we know where the Saviors have ended up, we know nothing of how they got here.  Morales said he and his family “never made it to Birmingham” (indicating they got killed en route somewhere between Atlanta and B’ham), he went to curl up and die in a truck trailer or some such, and was “found” by the Saviors.  Which leaves us with two options:

1. The Saviors have/had a MASSIVE scouting network which covered at least half of the eastern U. S.; or,
2. The Saviors themselves were a roaming group at the time, moving through roughly the same geographical area, when Morales was found and picked up by a short-range recon group scouting around the main party.

#1 is ridiculous - CDB would have encountered them several times on the walkabout from ATL to DC, at the very least - so I’m leaning towards #2.

You forgot possibility number 3: All geographical transversions work at the speed of plot.

Edited November 7, 2017 by CletusMusashi

[CletusMusashi]

4 hours ago, SnarkyTart said:

By turning stones into fish and loaves of bread?

Carol would be like "Fuck that. I brought cookies." And they'd be flavored with rat poison and antifreeze.

[calvinshobbes]

17 hours ago, ghoulina said:

Also Jacqui, T-Dog, Merle, and Dale. 

 

 

It was like an Oscars in  Memoriam segment. 

Why are the writers so bent on destroying characters like Tyreese, Morgan and now Jesus? It is maddening how they take a character and make them so pathetic and annoying. 

[Haleth]

12 hours ago, Lillith said:

The rolling walkers were the only thing that really amused me last night. I really wished at least one had groaned "Wheeee!" as they were rolling down that hill. 

They mentioned on Talking Dead that only 3 stunt people were used for this scene.  They had to keep changing costume and make up and roll down the hill again to make it look like 15 walkers.

[Pixiebomb]

The prisoner theme of this episode reminded me of Season 2's "Nebraska" episode. What was that kid's name?  Anyway, they debated and debated about what to do with him. They tried to do the "right" thing and it ultimately led to them losing the farm. Maggie was there, she should have learned that. Same with Tyrese's Terminus friend(I'm so bad with names). Tyrese let him live and that led to Bob and the red Machete church incident. 

Everytime they show mercy it turns around and bites them in the butt. 

Daryl gets it. 

Not sure what Jesus' end goal is here. He said the war will end and then they will have to find a way to all live compatibly. I don't see these prisoners becoming loyal members of Hilltop or Alexandria or the Kingdom. These savior warriors are not Negan's points workers. They are privileged and in the upperclass of Sanctuary society. They take what they want, when they want it from the people who work and scrape by.  They lead the good life.  I don't think many will be easily swayed to put down their guns and actually start working for their food and survival. 

Edited November 7, 2017 by Pixiebomb
Bad grammar

[AngelaHunter]

9 minutes ago, Pixiebomb said:

The prisoner theme of this episode reminded me of Season 2's "Nebraska" episode. What was that kid's name?  Anyway, they debated and debated about what to do with him.

"Randall."

Rick has pretty much been Governor-level  "Kill them all" since Terminus. The others seem to flip flop between "We can't kill them. That's not who we are" to "Yeah, kill them." Even Daryl briefly got infected with the "All life is precious" virus when he stopped Rick from snuffing one of the Lollicops who had just come very close to murdering Daryl himself. I'm glad he at least has come to his senses. Watching him put an abrupt end to another incredibly boring monologue (Morales') was like a reward for watching the rest of this nonsensical bilge.

[CloudySky]

How many warriors do the Saviors have? Our group keeps mowing them down by the dozens and yet they keep sprouting up for reverse ambushing. I find it hard to believe that hundreds of people would be so ruthless and "Negan" without questioning. Even seeing how Negan handled the likes of Dwight and Eugene...I just can't buy it. I know we've encountered ruthless leaders before but...I could buy the governer because most of his crew were ignorant to his true nature, I could buy Terminus because their experiences shaped them but the Saviors having hundreds of people fully aware of what a sadistic, volatile asshole Negan is and nobody revolting? Especially when things start getting dicy? Maybe I believe in the goodness of humanity too much...Can't forget Nazi germany happened too.

 

This episode felt like threading water...Can't even distinguish between what happened in episode 2 and 3...feels like one long episode.

Morales getting an arrow through the head after years of fan theories was hilarious. I wasn't sure how to feel at the moment I was watching it (annoyed or amused) but the laugh that bubbled up decided for me. I'm glad because the actor left much to be desired and I couldn't handle more of that.

I would have been truly shocked in a good way if the kingdom group actually escaped unscathed from a succesful mission. They were spelling out that massacre in neon flashing letters.

The shooting back and forth was annoying because I had no idea who was who half the time. Eric died boohoo so sad. For some reason I thought he had died last season already before he showed up again lol.

The hilltop scenes were fun. I love to hate Gregory. Wish Maggie had mowed down the hostages and when she ran out of bullets, grabbed a stunned Jesus's gun and shot down the remainder + Gregory for good measure.

The characterization of Jesus makes zero sense. I like seeing more of Tara but wish she had shown some backbone and killed them like she wanted. It would make me respect her more.

[DearEvette]

11 hours ago, SimoneS said:

The saviors have freaking nerve. They run around attacking and brutally murdering people they encounter and are full of self-righteous anger when other groups take them on.

I think this hits on what bothers me about the entire Negan story arc.  In my opinion it is unsuccessful because it feels like the writers were licking their chops at the fanboi reaction to Negan and his bat and his incessant talking about dicks and balls.  Oh he's so badass!  Rawr!!!  But it falls apart so hard when you watch it unfold.

It makes no sense for all the Saviors to fall so neatly in line with Negan's philosophy, especially if as we know, his MO has been to come into their space, kill someone they love and continue to terrorize them.  It doesn't make sense for them to look at Rick & the Alexandrians  as monsters or bad guys knowing what they know about how Negan does his business.  They aren't the Woodbury folks who lived a soft ZA life and had the illusion of stability under the seemingly benevolent rule of the Governor.  Given how the Woodburyites' first intro to Rick & Co. was them causing mayhem and letting Walkers in, I could totally buy them believing that Rick & Co. were the bad guys.  But Negans people don't really have that excuse.

I can totally see some of the saviors joining and enjoying Negan's swoop in and kill methods because some people are sadistic and some people just get caught up in mob rule and some people are nihilistic.  But it just doesn't track for me that there aren't more people besides Dwight inside Negan's camp who wouldn't welcome Rick's fight and wouldn't find ways big and small to help out and sabotage from within.  If for no other reason than recognize that you have to put down a rabid dog before he turns on you.

So, these 11th hour considerations of these Saviors feelings & humanity simply don't work because the show has never tried to show them as people, just this monolithic cult of Negan.

[Madding crowd]

This felt pretty much the same as the last episode. I had no interest in seeing Morales although I remember him and his family but there have been so many characters I don't care much about people from years ago. While I do agree (and post all the time about it) that there is room in the ZA for pacifists, in this situation they are made no accommodations to hold prisoners, and don't have time to sort out who is in with Negan and who is there by force. I see no alternative but to kill these people. As far as Jesus, outside of his lovely hair, I still don't feel I know him as a character. 

I did feel a bit sad at Eric dying and wish Aaron would have just stayed with him. This would be a time to have walkie talkies which could possibly call for someone to transport him to a doctor. I still like Rick but feel it's been a long time since he seemed like anything but a kill, kill, kill guy and I miss the more nuanced Rick. 

[spiderpig]

13 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

ETA: Oooh, maybe something interesting will actually happen next week if Daryl finds out the newly-benevolent Jesus brought back a whole bunch of houseguests.

Or maybe a banquet for Shiva.

9 hours ago, calvinshobbes said:

It was like an Oscars in  Memoriam segment. 

Why are the writers so bent on destroying characters like Tyreese, Morgan and now Jesus? It is maddening how they take a character and make them so pathetic and annoying. 

At least Jesus brings The Pretty to this show.  Dawg knows, the writing so far this season has been awful.

[HighMaintenance]

14 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

I think that Morales is angry at "Rick from Alexandria" who he didn't know was the same Rick he knew ages ago.  Realizing they were the same Rick didn't eliminate his anger.  The question is how much of that anger is based on the pre-emptive attack on the Saviors and how much is based on Negan's propaganda.

It would have worked much better if, say,  Morales' wife was one of the Saviors that Rick's group massacred in their sleep at the satellite dish outpost.  His hate would have been more personal and justified.

[Dobian]

This show has gotten so dumb with all the navel gazing moralizing that the writers seem to want to repeatedly explore.  It's a war, you win the war and then figure out later what kind of people you want to be.  Maggie allowing that bunch of Savior hostages to be let into Hilltop was so out of character.  Imagine if a prison was overflowing and the local government announced it was going to house them in trailers at the local elementary school, but don't worry there will be guards.  The locals would be storming city hall to lynch the mayor and the council.  Putting the safety of entire communities at risk - no even moderate risk but severe risk - because "we don't want to become the animals we're fighting" is so misguided when you are in a wartime scenario, the whole scene was just absurd.  It was the same nonsense last week with Jesus and Tara and Piss Pants Guy.  The writing and character motivations on this show just suck.

[CletusMusashi]

If "would have worked better"s were horses, this season would be a documentary about the Mongol empire.

[peach]

Isn't this mere WEEKS since Glenn and Abraham had their heads bashed into oblivion?  As usual, Maggie has virtually no credible emotional response to this (for which I blame the writers, I like Lauren).  My husband's torturers and killers would not be welcome "in some trailers with some guards" out back.

[peach]

14 hours ago, SimoneS said:

The saviors have freaking nerve. They run around attacking and brutally murdering people they encounter and are full of self-righteous anger when other groups take them on. Everyone of them needs to be fed to the walkers alive. As happy as I was when Daryl killed Morales in the midst of his dumbass Negan monologue, it would have been most satisfying if he had been eaten alive.

Exactly.  They enslave every group they find.

[SimoneS]

49 minutes ago, peach said:

Isn't this mere WEEKS since Glenn and Abraham had their heads bashed into oblivion?  As usual, Maggie has virtually no credible emotional response to this (for which I blame the writers, I like Lauren).  My husband's torturers and killers would not be welcome "in some trailers with some guards" out back.

Like with Beth, the writers only have Maggie remember Glenn when they want to write a meaningless monologue. Rick has mourned Glenn and Sasha and Rosita have mourned Abraham more than Maggie mourn Glenn.

I am still annoyed that they killed of Glenn before his story was over and the lack of build up to his death. Abraham felt like he was at the end of his story, but Glenn was in the middle of his story. Now they are resisting getting revenge for Glenn and Abraham.

Edited November 7, 2017 by SimoneS

[kj4ever]

I miss the recaps from this show.  Has Previously stopped doing them for just podcasts now?  That sucks.  This bumbling cartoon would give them so much material!

[nodorothyparker]

Hell, last season the show had Daryl feel all sad and brokenhearted about Glenn and left Maggie to comfort him.  The fact that Maggie is never allowed to remember the people she lost in any way that feels organic is half of why I feel so little for the character, with the other half being her terrible accent.

I know we're probably supposed to see Maggie agreeing to take Jesus's pet Saviors as prisoners as some kind of evidence of what a good person she still is despite everything, but considering there was apparently no plan to take prisoners and thus no provisions for them, she ends up looking like a worse decision maker than Gregory, who for all his hilarious weaseling his way back in at least recognized they don't belong inside the Hilltop.  Yet we're constantly told what a superior leader she is.

[Raven1707]

The Sunday Cable ratings are in for “Monsters”:

“The Walking Dead” (3.8) led Sunday’s rankings but declined a bit from the prior week’s 4.0. [8.519 million viewers]

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/daily-ratings/sunday-cable-ratings-nov-5-2017/

Here are the Live + Same Day ratings for Season 8 so far:

10-22-17 “Mercy” 11.439 million
10-29-17 “The Damned” 8.923 million
11-05-17 “Monsters” 8.519 million

[iMonrey]

Quote

Why was Morales (I know, he's dead, who cares) so angry at Rick?  I mean, Morales left on his own. 

Good question. Best guess, Morales has heard about Rick and his group through the Savior grapevine, heard how Rick's people took out a bunch of Saviors, and bought into the propaganda that Rick is no different than Negan. I don't think it had anything to do with how they started together in Atlanta - I think he just assumed Rick evolved into the same kind of dictator Negan was. And since Morales is currently in Negan's group, that makes Rick the enemy now.

Quote

What's really confusing me about Jesus is what would he have done if he was with Aaron's group? What would he say to Aaron, "No don't kill them, just throw the bullets at them." 

Presumably Jesus sees the distinction between attacking for tactical advantage and killing hostages. If the entire group of Saviors in the courtyard had also surrendered, I'm guessing Jesus would have taken the same "No don't kill them" position.

[spiderpig]

7 minutes ago, Raven1707 said:

The Sunday Cable ratings are in for “Monsters”:

“The Walking Dead” (3.8) led Sunday’s rankings but declined a bit from the prior week’s 4.0. [8.519 million viewers]

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/daily-ratings/sunday-cable-ratings-nov-5-2017/

Here are the Live + Same Day ratings for Season 8 so far:

10-22-17 “Mercy” 11.439 million
10-29-17 “The Damned” 8.923 million
11-05-17 “Monsters” 8.519 million

No wonder.  Has anything actually happened to advance the plot in the last couple of episodes?

I'm in it for Shiva, and waiting for Carol to kick some serious ass.

Edited November 7, 2017 by spiderpig
spelling

[AngelaHunter]

In regards to the Morales scene - like many scenes or sub-plots, it had no point whatsoever. He did nothing but talk, changed nothing, didn't further the plot or create a new one. Really, why was he here? That whole long scene was all for nothing. The fillers in this are getting worse. Got too much time? Have someone - anyone - start talking about nothing relevant or meaningful or even mildly interesting. My god, this is bad.

I see the captive Saviors are being called hostages and not prisoners. What will Jesus do with them as a bargaining tool? "Negan, we want you and your henchmen to come outside and line up like sitting ducks so we can get a shot at you but just waste 8000 rounds of ammo."?  Oh, wait... Okay. "We want you and your henchmen to come outside and line up like sitting ducks again so we can get a shot at you and waste another 8000 rounds of ammo." There, that's better.

 

1 hour ago, peach said:

My husband's torturers and killers would not be welcome "in some trailers with some guards" out back.

As usual, she frowned mightily which seems to be the extent of her reaction to most things, no matter how outrageous, such as in this case with Jesus (I know a lot of people think he's "pretty" but I just see a pallid little, bug-eyed irritant ridiculously dressed for a trek through Siberia) foisting the Saviors on her. This, after she let in the old perve who betrayed them. Gregory must be snickering at how simple it is to pull the wool over her eyes. Who the hell put her in charge, anyway?

Edited November 7, 2017 by AngelaHunter

[millennium]

Was this week a rerun?   Of last week?

I'm waiting for the episode in which we learn that Maggie is gradually being possessed by the spirit of a Confederate soldier.   It's the only explanation for her ever-thickening accent.   Two weeks from now, we'll need subtitles.