S02.E05: Brothers

[GSMHvisitor]

8 hours ago, pennben said:

So, when do you think we will start getting flashforwards?  Fogelman must be pissed that Lost got to that first, but I guarantee that they are coming.......because.....boom!!!  Twist!!! Oh My God!! It's Kate's kid all grown up!....Sigh.  I bet he's also pissed that Six Feet Under stole his perfect finale.  

I've never watched that show, but you made me curious, what was the finale of Six Feet Under? And what made it so special?

[Conotocarious]

First nobody ate salads on restaurant patios in the 90s now nobody wore off the shoulder fashion? Lol. It was 1990, not 1890.  Really not that long ago in the grand scheme of things.

[luna1122]

11 minutes ago, GSMHvisitor said:

I've never watched that show, but you made me curious, what was the finale of Six Feet Under? And what made it so special?

It was the perfect series finale...flash forwarding thru every main characters' life to show us what happened to them over the years until each one's death.

[Clanstarling]

8 hours ago, possibilities said:

Randall was in a tough position.

How long does he wait for her to come out of there? What if she's hurting herself in some way, or what if she's not even in there anymore and has run away?

What if he asks someone else to go in after her and Deja denies knowing him, or makes a scene, or whoever he asks just assumes he's a creep and calls security? He could have asked Sophie, but he didn't want to leave the door in case Deja bolted while he wasn't looking. And if he had gone to find Sophie, she would have been pre-occupied with the Kevin fiasco.

Kevin was right there - before Randall went in. If nothing else (the phone suggestions were good), Kevin could have gone to get help (though I don't remember if this was after the fiasco with the auction).

I see this story as an epic family saga. Many are written with multiple generational story lines that alternate between past and present. Instead of "peeling an onion", I think of it as painting a canvas, layering paint with each brush stroke until finally, there is a complete picture. Story lines in the past may include information that is either not yet mentioned in the present story line - or has been deliberately kept secret from the family in the present. Either way, it will eventually have an impact. So, for me personally, it doesn't annoy me, I look forward to each brush stroke.

[sadiegirl1999]

Quote

I also hate that Kate says hello and Toby thinks that is code for sex.  We get it writers, Toby wants to have sex all the time with Kate, it really is not that big of a surprise and he does not have to act like a horny 14 year old that just saw his first porn.

Honestly, I think the writers want to shove the "hey fat people have sex too" thing down our throat. 

As if we were dumb enough NOT to believe that in the 1st place. 

[marceline]

Regarding the flashbacks within flashbacks, I found that a little grating too but it does show how one's family of origin installs the buttons that other people will push later in life. Jack's father was sucky and it drives a lot of his behavior to the point where IMO he overcompensates. We see the same behavior from Randall. Then of course there's the substance abuse from Dad to Jack and now Kevin.  We've seen a similar thing with Rebecca. Her mother was cold and judgmental so Rebecca tries to be the exact opposite and that makes Kate feel smothered.

 

Quote

(Also, I know this is a nitpick but people on TV are always dropping by workplaces unannounced, which I find rude and weird. There's no reason Kate couldn't have waited until he got home from work.)

This was exactly the issue I had last season when Kevin ran to Randall during his breakdown. The idea that Kevin would be allowed into a Manhattan office after hours unaccompanied pulled me completely out of the scene. If you go to the thread about that ep you will see a long multifaceted discussion of workplace entry and security policies. LOL!

Edited October 26, 2017 by marceline

[laurakaye]

20 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

I'm pretty positive that the writers seem Toby as the romantic comedy hero, who just happens to look like a regular Joe Schmoe instead of Paul Rudd or Matthew McConnuaghey. Everything about his grand gestures scream like something that the writers saw in a romantic comedy and figure the ladies on the show will like because it reminds them of something from a romantic comedy.

Someone's going to be standing on a lawn playing "In Your Eyes" on a boombox before the series is out, I guarantee it. I did like the use of Hootie and the Blowfish, though.

OH NO THEY BETTER NOT.  No one, not even "Grand Gesture" Toby had better step on my beloved Lloyd Dobler's gig!

(but I bet it will happen anyway)

 

13 hours ago, maggiemae said:

Good grief -  Hey Randall, just say something like shrimp are delicious, except for their tails......He looks at her so intently I imagine she feels it. 

Between the way he stares at her and follows her...well, I realize that the writers are going for "awkward, sypathetic" Randall, but what I'm getting is "creeper, stalkerish" Randall.

 

12 hours ago, Kira53 said:

So Randall should never watch tv with Deja alone in the family room?

Not if he's only going to stare at her.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Jillybean said:

For clarification, are you saying that it's acceptable for one group member to personally, vehemently attack another? I ask out of genuine interest because I have never heard of this before. Ever.

I would say there are groups where conflict and confrontation are welcome, but support groups, especially the OA/WW model this show's borrowing from, are not that kind of group.  Hence the word 'support' often being used for them.   Though I guess any facilitator can call their group anything they want and make any rules they want.  

I'm not familiar with OA but in WW, part of the model is you lose the weight and keep attending for as long as you want to or need to.  It's actually free for lifetime after a point.  So Madison being there is fine.  I'm guessing OA's model also welcomes all with 'overeating' issues, and those issues aren't unique to the obese.  

I get what the writers are going for with Madison.  I think we've all seen women who look like Madison who decry their weight woes, and we've all rolled our eyes.  I think we're supposed to sympathize with Kate and be cheering her on, like we did when she made the bratty teen get out of her car.  But instead they made Kate waaaayyyy too bitchy and judgmental and out of line and probably most viewers were sympathizing more with Madison there, like I was. 

Or maybe the aim was to show the stress Kate's under, carrying this endangered fetus, and how for her the stakes are ten times higher now.  But I'm not feeling that, either.  I think they might have overestimated our sympathy for Kate's health situation.  This sounds cold but it's hard to feel like she's a victim of biology or of circumstances when we know the actress and the character both could've done any number of things to improve her situation in the past year and neither seems to have done much.  She has access to resources most of us don't but hasn't used them, so why should I cry over her dangerous pregnancy now?  It'd be somewhat like crying over Pa Pearson's cirrhosis.  He at least, as far as we know, hasn't had the money, time and opportunity to get all kinds of professional help with his drinking.

In a way I'm glad they're walking these lines, trying to make us torn between sympathy and blame for these people.  But I feel like it's just wrong enough to make me wish they could've done it a bit better.  

[GSMHvisitor]

1 hour ago, luna1122 said:

It was the perfect series finale...flash forwarding thru every main characters' life to show us what happened to them over the years until each one's death.

Thanks. And I agree  with OP that that sort of ending would make sense for This Is Us as well.

I also wonder about kid Kevin's mean behaviour towards Randall. The scene in the tent between him and Jack implied so heavily that it's about more than just jealousy, because Randall sometimes gets extra attention. So maybe it's tied to the fact that Randall is extremely smart and that makes Kevin feel inferior? I have no idea, but I really do hope they do something with that, because the whole thing made me scratch my head.

The addiction story is not the best, let alone the most original thing ever, but I am most invested in Kevin's character, so any story that gives us deeper insight into his character and doesn't revolve around a girlfriend is a win for me. Kevin certainly hasn't dealt with Jack's death enough, but I wonder, again, if there's more to it? Maybe the last time he saw his father, they had a bad fight or something? Maybe Kevin said horrible things to Jack and he feels bad, because their last encounter went badly and he can never take it back or apologize for it and he hates himself for it? And maybe that's all coming back to haunt him now? Either way, whatever it is, I'm actually excited to see more of this story. I think between Super!Randall (as annoying as he can be sometimes, he's clearly a writers' favourite) and Super!Jack, Kevin is a bit underappreciated, which is a pity IMO.

[Fairlily26]

On 10/24/2017 at 10:51 PM, BoogieBurns said:

Are we positive his brother died? I mean, sure, we can assume. But all we know for sure is that Jack had a brother and they were in Vietnam together.

Randall, I love a good Blizzard from DQ too. He wasn't freaking out about her almost eating the shrimp tail, he was reaching to tell her not to and she recoiled with a huge overreaction. I think it seemed like he was being dramatic, but it was her. 

I'm so much like Kate, I decided I'm not going to tell people I'm pregnant until I am basically in labor. Not because of my size, but because of all the advice people love giving. I'll just let everyone think I got fat in my belly only. 

Can't imagine having a parent leave me in the car while they drink at a bar and take their sweet time. What a sucky life Jack had.

You know, I wanted to do the same thing but thanks to social media and being 6 months pregnant for my birthday, my dumb ass brother outed me.

" Happy birthday mommy to be!" 

That was literally written on my fb wall smh

I would have just posted her footprints afterwards....But yea boundaries right? Lol

Also, I don't think it was so much a over reaction as reflex. Even animals are super skittish when they've been abused. But I agree with the poster up thread that said Randall should have told her before she started eating.

[candall]

12 hours ago, SueB said:

I'm presuming that she gets a dinner or some outing with The Manny.  And hopefully it'll be scheduled AFTER Kevin goes to rehab and he handles it well.  Then it'll be worth it to her. It's not like they were going to wrap Kevin up and put him in her car.  Often these things have a specific activity AFTER the auction. 

Well, sure, but I think every live celebrity auction has the famous person at least effecting some small gesture of grace or charm to the charity donor.  Thank you, I'm honored.   Not wandering into the room post-auction, taking a look at the winner and promptly bolting the premises. 

It's not a big deal.  It's just that the woman's shy little wave, which went unacknowledged, made me sad for her.  People are so often hurt when, like this, they're merely collateral damage to a bad mood or something else unrelated.

[SueB]

Just now, candall said:

Well, sure, but I think every live celebrity auction has the famous person at least effecting some small gesture of grace or charm to the charity donor.  Thank you, I'm honored.   Not wandering into the room post-auction, taking a look at the winner and promptly bolting the premises. 

It's not a big deal.  It's just that the woman's shy little wave, which went unacknowledged, made me sad for her.  People are so often hurt when, like this, they're merely collateral damage to a bad mood or something else unrelated.

Oh I TOTALLY agree.  Kevin needs to treat this woman like ROYALTY when he gets his head on straight.  $14K for charity?!  That's a lovely donation and he should be honored.  

[ShadowFacts]

8 minutes ago, candall said:

Well, sure, but I think every live celebrity auction has the famous person at least effecting some small gesture of grace or charm to the charity donor.  Thank you, I'm honored.   Not wandering into the room post-auction, taking a look at the winner and promptly bolting the premises. 

It's not a big deal.  It's just that the woman's shy little wave, which went unacknowledged, made me sad for her.  People are so often hurt when, like this, they're merely collateral damage to a bad mood or something else unrelated.

There was a shot sort of from above that was pulling away from Kevin and Sophie at the table and you could see the lady and her friend still at their table, like maybe waiting for some little acknowledgement.  Underlining Kevin's gracelessness. 

[monakane]

21 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

I'm pretty positive that the writers seem Toby as the romantic comedy hero, who just happens to look like a regular Joe Schmoe instead of Paul Rudd or Matthew McConnuaghey. Everything about his grand gestures scream like something that the writers saw in a romantic comedy and figure the ladies on the show will like because it reminds them of something from a romantic comedy.

I hope that's not the case.   I really want the writers to address Toby's control issues.  I like Chris Sullivan as an actor and I think he could carry that story line.  (He was one of my favorite characters in the Knick.)  That scene at the coffee shop was ridiculous. 

As much as I adore Jack, I think his grand gestures come from his insecurity.

[topanga]

On 10/24/2017 at 10:14 PM, SnoGirl said:

Oh man, Randall is going to feel SO guilty when everything comes out about Kevin. Kevin literally told him what was wrong....this is not going to end well between the brothers. I'm a lot like Randall, this is going to eat him alive.

I’ll have to rewatch. When did Kevin say something to Randall? I thought he was hiding his addiction from everyone. But I wish there was a moment when Randall helped the Kevin the way Kevin did for Randall last season. But maybe that’s coming. 

 

On 10/24/2017 at 10:54 PM, Cardie said:

For a genius Randall is pretty dense for not having noticed that Deja is terrified of him. Why would he grab at the shrimp and then invade the ladies' room? At least she tells him about the abuse, which any observant adult could have figured out weeks ago.

Randall is sometimes oblivious to social cues. He could just be socially awkward, or he could fall somewhere on the autism spectrum.

But yeah, you don’t grab people. He could have said. “Hey, wait. That part of the shrimp is gross.”

And the foster system is so messed up that I’m never surprised to hear children tell tales of abuse. I’m surprised it wasn’t worse, quite honestly. A large percentage of children in foster care are sexually abused. 

Deja looked cute, but I didn’t like her dress. It looked like something from the ‘90s. 

[sasha206]

4 hours ago, luna1122 said:

It was the perfect series finale...flash forwarding thru every main characters' life to show us what happened to them over the years until each one's death.

That finale still gives me chills.  

[sasha206]

2 hours ago, laurakaye said:

 

Between the way he stares at her and follows her...well, I realize that the writers are going for "awkward, sypathetic" Randall, but what I'm getting is "creeper, stalkerish" Randall.

 

Not if he's only going to stare at her.

Agreed.

I'm just not a fan of how they are suddenly making Randall this spontaneous careless person.  Season 1 Randall would have been much different with this child, in my view.  

I also call BS on Beth's pulling aside Randall and question taking her to a charity event simply because she has a harmless crush on The Manny.  It seemed ludicrous that for the first time this little girl is happy, Beth would think it wasn't a good idea.  Imagine how heartless it would've been for them to say, "Sorry, honey you can't go to a charity event."

[Clanstarling]

7 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

That finale still gives me chills.  

I must be dead inside. It left me cold, but not in the good chills way.

[Jillybean]

1 hour ago, monakane said:

 I really want the writers to address Toby's control issues.  I like Chris Sullivan as an actor and I think he could carry that story line.  (He was one of my favorite characters in the Knick.)  That scene at the coffee shop was ridiculous. 

From the EW article about the episode, an interview with This Is Us executive producers (and directors of this episode) John Requa and Glenn Ficarra:

Quote

I’m guessing there are probably all sorts of outtakes from Toby’s colorful coffee-house choreographed flashdance. What ended up on the cutting room floor?

FICARRA: Like, a ton. We could do a whole episode.
REQUA: Tyler Bensinger wrote a really great scene with several moves, so we shot all that. And then we said, “Okay, we got all that in the can. Let’s just play.” We had prepped Chris [Sullivan] that this was happening, and he came on the location scout, which was rare, and got a sense of the space and what he could do there and we just started riffing. And in fact, that Flashdance thing was something that Glenn and Chris cooked up themselves — and surprised me. We do this a lot on set: Glenn will come back [behind the camera] and I will go, “What’s going to happen?” And he goes, “Well, just watch!” [Laughs]
FICARRA: And vice versa. John had the idea of taking Chris to the location scout a week before so he could see the space and work something up because Chris is a super talented song-and-dance man. He’s a Broadway guy and he has an incredible voice and he’s a dancer, and he loves to perform. So, we knew he’d drink it up and just let him run. There’s a thing where he uses coffee cans as maracas that’s funny.
REQUA: There’s a scene that absolutely killed me and I really was lobbying hard to get it in there, but I could never convince Dan [Fogelman, the show’s creator]. He goes up to someone for a hug and they’re terrified of him and they run away. And I just thought it was so funny but we never got it in there. I mean, it could have been a half-hour long. There was so much stuff.
FICARRA: There was a thing where we greased the floor and he kind of did a knee-slide across the room. And then there’s one where he jumps on a pole and then gets scared to come down. We blocked out enough time where we could have a lot of fun with it, and sadly the episode is so rich with other stuff that we had to cut it down.

Can you imagine if that scene had been a half hour long?! I wish Fogelman had at least allowed the scene of the person running away from Toby. That would have made it mildly more realistic. I think Fogelman doesn't want to do anything that implies that Toby isn't the dashing leading man that he wants him to be. I wish I could find the previous interview where the showrunners claimed Toby is this amazing romantic figure out of a rom-com.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Jillybean

[methodwriter85]

13 minutes ago, Jillybean said:

From the EW article about the episode, an interview with This Is Us executive producers (and directors of this episode) John Requa and Glenn Ficarra:

Can you imagine if that scene had been a half hour long?! I wish Fogelman had at least allowed the scene of the person running away from Toby. That would have made it mildly more realistic. I think Fogelman doesn't want to do anything that implies that Toby isn't the dashing leading man that he wants him to be. I wish I could find the previous interview where the showrunners claimed Toby is this amazing romantic figure out of a rom-com.

I remember Folgemann saying something about how Toby standing up for Kate against Rebecca's nagging was a true romantic leading man moment. Yeah, this is tottttttallllyyyy supposed to be seen as charming and squeeworthy.

Edited October 26, 2017 by methodwriter85

[methodwriter85]

10 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Usually when a date is an auction item, it's not expected to happen that night. After the auction ends, she and the date person arrange a time and place to meet.

OMG, the short sleeved mock turtle neck was perfect late 80s/early 90s costuming!

Loved that the Donna Karan dress that Hilary wore in 1993 combined the mock turtleneck AND the shoulderless trends together.

I also found a Melrose Place cast photo from 1992 with Alyssa Milano wearing an off the shoulder dress with little ties on top! It's a little hard to see because his hand is covering the top part of her shoulder (heh, love that Heather Locklear is just wearing a flesh colored bra).

 

They seem to be making more of an effort with the 1990 styling than they were last season, where it felt like they stuck solely to a late 1970's/early 1980's aesthetic even in 1988/1989.

I remember Melrose Place very well, and that's definitely 1997 Melrose.

Edited October 26, 2017 by methodwriter85

[MBayGal]

Quote

 looked at the credits, and excepting Fogleman, who has his name on 54 episodes (I'm assuming that's the entire series since he's the creator, whether or not he actively wrote on an episode), 7 women are credited on 40 episodes (with Kay Oyegon credited for 22), whereas there are only 3 men, credited on 23 episodes (the one with the most credits comes in at 17). I had to check a few of the names which seemed gender neutral to me, and two were women and one was a man.

I'm really confused by this.  We are only in S2, but you were able to find out who will write or has written eps 2 or 3 seasons into the future?  Or were you talking about an earlier show Fogleman created? 

Edited October 26, 2017 by MBayGal
typo

[Cardie]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

I must be dead inside. It left me cold, but not in the good chills way.

Yeah, me too. I think the old age make-up created too much distance.

[SunnyBeBe]

I had to look back to confirm this is Season 2.  It sure did seem like they have had already had 2 seasons.  It was long one, imo.  18 episodes

Edited October 26, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[Blakeston]

7 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

That's an interesting analysis.  I keep going back to that scene early last season where little Kevin says words to the effect, "I should have been the star in this family."  I think that drives him, he wants to be top dog and Randall was in the way of that. 

That "I should have been the star of this family" line said so much.

He has plenty of reasons to be jealous of Randall. Randall was obviously Rebecca's favorite, he got more parental attention in general, he was smarter, he was better behaved, and he got to go to an elite private school.

But I think there's also something beyond jealousy. I think he's always seen Randall as an intruder who made his family "different." Kevin didn't just want to be the star of the family, he wanted to be the star of a cookie-cutter family that was seen as perfectly normal in every way.

When the other kids made fun of Randall by calling him Webster, rather than having any sympathy for Randall, Kevin became irritated with him, presumably because he felt like Randall's existence left his family open to mockery.

[bichonblitz]

1 hour ago, methodwriter85 said:

I remember Folgemann saying something about how Toby standing up for Kate against Rebecca's nagging was a true romantic leading man moment. Yeah, this is tottttttallllyyyy supposed to be seen as charming and squeeworthy.

Epic fail. Toby is a nerd and not in an endearing way. I don't see any chemistry between Toby and Kate and I can't figure out if it's the characters that don't have chemistry or the actors. 

[Empress1]

5 hours ago, marceline said:

This was exactly the issue I had last season when Kevin ran to Randall during his breakdown. The idea that Kevin would be allowed into a Manhattan office after hours unaccompanied pulled me completely out of the scene. If you go to the thread about that ep you will see a long multifaceted discussion of workplace entry and security policies. LOL!

Pretty sure you'll find posts from me in that thread. I remember that!

[GenevieveS]

17 hours ago, Kira53 said:

So Randall should never watch tv with Deja alone in the family room?

Actually, no. He probably shouldn't. At least right now.

And Beth's objection to him taking her to the gala should have been more along the lines of "she's not ready to be alone with you." I know Randall's point was that he thought his taking her would lead to her having a positive, safe, fun experience with him and that it would help. And it might have. But it could also have backfired so very much.

Honestly, as a former foster parent, this storyline is driving me nuts. Because Randall and Beth should have had training that told them to take it slowly, to expect her to either have walls a mile high or to have no boundaries at all, to be prepared for her to refuse to bathe at all (a significant number of kids in foster care have been sexually abused while "being given a bath." We were told to offer a bath, but not force it. For weeks, if necessary.) to be careful about time alone with a child. They should have been warned that the "file" they magically got so quickly (ha!) would be incomplete and inaccurate. (We were told that kids were frequently removed for "neglect" and that the foster parents were often the first to hear about the additional abuse--especially sexual--that wasn't obvious earlierey) Maybe Randall is ignoring all that -- that would be an interesting character choice -- but I can't believe that without at least a reference to "what they said in class." I get that Deja's been in care before, so the file (which Randal and Beth would never have been given an actual physical copy of, by the way) is more filled out than the cases I had, but it's just so frustrating to watch them get this all so wrong. Did they talk to anyone who has ever worked in the foster care system? The only part they got right was the caseworker leaving them and it feeling way too fast.

[Dreamboat Annie]

8 hours ago, Jillybean said:

For clarification, are you saying that it's acceptable for one group member to personally, vehemently attack another? I ask out of genuine interest because I have never heard of this before. Ever.

I did say that but, no, of course it isn't.  I was wrong.  I apologize and, if I may, please allow me to not only clarify that, but correct it right now.  Seeing the Katehate for it and the sympathy for Madison I think got me down.  What my (somewhat) cooler head says is it's never okay but I can see why it happened.  I can see that what Madison was doing could easily come across as taunting, even if she didn't mean for it to.  If it wasn't Kate who felt provoked enough by it to finally snap, then I believe someone else would have.  I'm sure more than one attendee there wanted to stand and applaud.

I don't think Madison is fine there, and I don't think she should be there.  Yes, she has every right to be there.  But if she has body issues or a mental disorder which causes her to see herself as obese in her head then I think she needs much more help than a support group for obese people can give her.  If she's lost the weight and needs support in order to keep it off, there are support groups for that.  If someone is entirely healthy but believe in their head they are dying of all sorts of horrible diseases, they would not belong in a support group for terminally ill people, they need help for their hypochondria.  If someone is unemployed but wealthy, they shouldn't attend a support group for those looking for jobs complaining that the diamond on their ring is too heavy for their hand.  I don't believe that we should hurt peoples feelings just because we have the right to.

That said, I like the character of Madison.  I found her to be annoying in the meeting but her reaction to Kate's pregnancy news was outright endearing, and I thought it was warm, sweet and genuine.  The actress blew me away with her scene stealing moment.  Dan Fogelman's wife or not (she is), she has certainly earned the right to act alongside the major players!

Edited October 26, 2017 by Dreamboat Annie

[Paloma]

I guess I am the only one who had this feeling (since I haven't seen any comments about it), but when Jack's brother popped up in the back seat I got the sense that he was developmentally slow or some other type of special needs. Maybe it was just the coke-bottle glasses, but there was something about the way he talked also. If that was true, it might explain Jack feeling protective of Nicky and later in life being so upset about Kevin not getting along with Randall (not that Randall was special needs, but his parents did see him as needing protection from racists and from kids who just don't want to hang out with those who are different in any way, such as being super-smart).

If no one else got that feeling, I will attribute it to the glasses and to his talking sleepily because he just woke up.

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, MBayGal said:

I'm really confused by this.  We are only in S2, but you were able to find out who will write or has written eps 2 or 3 seasons into the future?  Or were you talking about an earlier show Fogleman created? 

I just looked at the writing credits for this show on IMDB. I assume there are future episodes in that list. I did think it sounded high, but I am not responsible for their data.

[Cardie]

7 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I just looked at the writing credits for this show on IMDB. I assume there are future episodes in that list. I did think it sounded high, but I am not responsible for their data.

TIU has been renewed through S2 and 3, for a total of three 18 episode seasons, adding up to 54. As creator, Fogelman is contractually credited on every episode, even if he quits tomorrow. Thus IMDB has presumptively given him a writing credit on every guaranteed future episode.

[possibilities]

6 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I think we're supposed to sympathize with Kate and be cheering her on, like we did when she made the bratty teen get out of her car.  But instead they made Kate waaaayyyy too bitchy and judgmental and out of line and probably most viewers were sympathizing more with Madison there, like I was. 

I've been assuming they were going to set this up only to upend the whole thing by showing us how Madison is actually seriously messed up and suffering greatly, and her appearance and veneer of superficial issues is actually masking serious problems. Twist!

 

Re Randall could have texted Sophie, I genuinely forgot about cell phones. I'm a dinosaur, I use a landline at home, and I don't carry a cell.

[MBayGal]

Thanks, Clanstarling & Cardi.  I am so used to cable series of 8 to 12 eps per season that 54 episodes seemed like it would be into the next decade, and beyond the number of seasons it has been renewed for. So even tho the S3 eps probably aren't written yet, they have been assigned to writers I guess. I wonder if the writers care about the level of disappointment with some of the characters this season.  

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Paloma said:

but when Jack's brother popped up in the back seat I got the sense that he was developmentally slow or some other type of special needs.

I thought, "Cool, they got 1986 Corey Feldman!"  

 

[SnoGirl]

7 hours ago, topanga said:

I’ll have to rewatch. When did Kevin say something to Randall? I thought he was hiding his addiction from everyone. But I wish there was a moment when Randall helped the Kevin the way Kevin did for Randall last season. But maybe that’s coming. 

 

Randall is sometimes oblivious to social cues. He could just be socially awkward, or he could fall somewhere on the autism spectrum.

But yeah, you don’t grab people. He could have said. “Hey, wait. That part of the shrimp is gross.”

And the foster system is so messed up that I’m never surprised to hear children tell tales of abuse. I’m surprised it wasn’t worse, quite honestly. A large percentage of children in foster care are sexually abused. 

Deja looked cute, but I didn’t like her dress. It looked like something from the ‘90s. 

Kevin says something like "that's the difference between you and me. You feel everything. I try to feel nothing." Talk about a GIANT red flag. Randall even asks him if he's okay, but then its dropped.

I bet Randall remembers Kevin saying that when the shit hits the fan for Kevin.

[elle]

14 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Kevin was right there - before Randall went in. If nothing else (the phone suggestions were good), Kevin could have gone to get help (though I don't remember if this was after the fiasco with the auction).

It was during the auction, iirc.  I recall Randall leaving just as the auction was starting because I thought it was another example of Kevin's family leaving before a Kevin event.  I was expecting Randall to say to Kevin something about shouldn't he be inside, but Randall was to wrapped up in his own head.  The whole "you shouldn't go in there, but you're going in there" scene irked me because they both knew it was the wrong move.

14 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I see this story as an epic family saga. Many are written with multiple generational story lines that alternate between past and present. Instead of "peeling an onion", I think of it as painting a canvas, layering paint with each brush stroke until finally, there is a complete picture. Story lines in the past may include information that is either not yet mentioned in the present story line - or has been deliberately kept secret from the family in the present. Either way, it will eventually have an impact. So, for me personally, it doesn't annoy me, I look forward to each brush stroke.

Nice analogy!

10 hours ago, topanga said:

Randall is sometimes oblivious to social cues. He could just be socially awkward, or he could fall somewhere on the autism spectrum.

But yeah, you don’t grab people. He could have said. “Hey, wait. That part of the shrimp is gross.”

Oblivious yes, autistic no.  The scene at the beginning where Beth is telling him not to try to be cool and his responses and rebuffs (I'm a cool dad) points to a certain arrogance people have about they are going to do what they are going to do no matter what advice (good or bad) other people give to them resulting in cringe worthy moments for everyone involved.

10 hours ago, topanga said:

Deja looked cute, but I didn’t like her dress. It looked like something from the ‘90s. 

This made me laugh considering the ongoing discussion of 90s fashion.

3 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I thought, "Cool, they got 1986 Corey Feldman!"

Bringing things full circle as the photo is from a movie set in 1959. 

Edited October 27, 2017 by elle

[debraran]

I liked this part of an interview about Nicky and Jack's dad mentioning him:

You wonder if Jack’s dad, on his deathbed, might mention Jack’s secret about his brother to Rebecca when she visits his dad at the nursing home. And technically we never saw Jack’s dad die. Even though Jack effectively was done with him, telling Rebecca that in his mind that he died a long time ago, might we see another deathbed scene? Is that in play?
REQUA: There was a little bit more dialogue that was trimmed out. There was a desire to leave it a little bit more ambiguous. He represents, in the microcosm of the episode, the Kevin path. So Jack has two sides to his personality, the secret keeper in his alcoholism and the fact that he has his brother in Vietnam, and the ebullient, generous, loving father side. Randall is running the good path and Kevin is falling down the path that represents the dark side of his father. And the end of that path is Stanley in that nursing home, dying alone.

When you look at it that way the scene was more powerful but I'm curious about the conversation they cut out. Maybe that will be put in later with Jack if he didn't die.

I wonder if Rebecca starts to think, What else didn't you tell me? 

[ryebread]

On 10/25/2017 at 7:54 AM, NeverLate said:

She'd have been in there all night and the next day, its a TV show, didnt drive me crazy.

 

On 10/25/2017 at 8:29 AM, Kira53 said:

 I totally disagree. It's not about Fogelman, it's about Randall. The episode shows us how little Randall just doesn't have patience for things to get better and for people to like him. He, the adult Randall knows better but he can't stop himself from doing the wrong thing for the right reason.  Young Randall knows better because he knows his brother  but he doesn't want to wait.  I love how he has his little notebook to tell him what's the right thing to do to try to connect with Kevin but he sitting out there just wanting to do something a have it change now.   In this episode, Randall discusses with Kevin how he shouldn't go in to the bathroom.  Randall clearly knows this is the wrong move to connect with Deja.  But they both kind of agree that of course he's  Randall is not going to do the right thing, he's going to do what he feels is necessary at the time even when he knows it the wrong thing. This is consistent with the character and I do not believe  that it has to do with any philosophy from production. Every character is highly flawed in this show and that's why I enjoy it because they're great people with great flaws.  Well drawn characters that are complex.  

Terrific post. I didn't find the bathroom scene creepy at all. This was an unpredictable 12 year old girl Randall was concerned about.  Not a full grown woman who Randall was trying to control by not respecting her boundaries. Y'all know who he's  married to, right? :-)

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, debraran said:

I wonder if Rebecca starts to think, What else didn't you tell me? 

She's got her own secret, about knowing William.  We have not been shown yet that she told Jack about it, have we?  Maybe at some point we'll see them both come out with their truths. 

[laurakaye]

16 hours ago, Paloma said:

I guess I am the only one who had this feeling (since I haven't seen any comments about it), but when Jack's brother popped up in the back seat I got the sense that he was developmentally slow or some other type of special needs. Maybe it was just the coke-bottle glasses, but there was something about the way he talked also. If that was true, it might explain Jack feeling protective of Nicky and later in life being so upset about Kevin not getting along with Randall (not that Randall was special needs, but his parents did see him as needing protection from racists and from kids who just don't want to hang out with those who are different in any way, such as being super-smart).

If no one else got that feeling, I will attribute it to the glasses and to his talking sleepily because he just woke up.

I immediately got that feeling too, which is why it surprised me that Nicky ended up in Vietnam with Jack.  I also noted that in the photo Jack looked at, Jack was staring straight at the camera and Nicky was sort of hunched over, smiling, but not looking at anyone.  Maybe that meant something, maybe it didn't.  But I did think how odd it was that two brothers would be in the same unit, especially if one of them was mentally challenged.

 

10 hours ago, elle said:

It was during the auction, iirc.  I recall Randall leaving just as the auction was starting because I thought it was another example of Kevin's family leaving before a Kevin event.  I was expecting Randall to say to Kevin something about shouldn't he be inside, but Randall was to wrapped up in his own head.  The whole "you shouldn't go in there, but you're going in there" scene irked me because they both knew it was the wrong move.

Honestly, at this point why does this family get together to support each other when all they do is get up and leave?  This is a pattern...Kevin leaving his play, Randall and Beth leaving Kevin's Manny show (followed by Kate, Toby and Rebecca), Kevin and Randall leaving the auction, etc.  It's becoming almost comical.  

And I still cannot buy, at all, the father of two young girls going into a women's bathroom to stand outside the stall of his 12-year old female foster child.  It may be consistent with his character doing things he knows he shouldn't do, but there's just no way.  Randall is a smart man.  He has to know that - while he is certainly justified in seeing if she's okay - him going in there and remaining there while they talk is a really, really bad idea.

[Casually Observant]

On 10/25/2017 at 4:52 AM, Jillybean said:

Kate really has become downright unlikeable. She was a real asshole to Madison in the meeting and her behavior is totally unacceptable for any 12-step group or support groups of any kind.  The leader of that group should have stepped in (or other members should have said something). It's called a support group for a reason. Kate is so resentful of thin, pretty women that she acts horribly toward them.  You can never know what pain someone else is going through just by looking at them. I have come to dislike adult Kate immensely and don't care about her pregnancy. Toby is a tool and the scene at the coffee shop was ridiculous.

Randall is so awkward with Deja, and while I feel like that's to be expected, I also feel very little connectivity between the Randall of S1 and the Randall of S2. It's almost like he's a different character. I don't care for this arc at all. And I can't understand why he would smack Deja's hand instead of using his words to advise her not to eat the shrimp tail. WTF? That felt unnatural and convoluted as a plot device to get them to the ladies' room scene, which I also didn't care for. I'm not sure Deja would have confided in Randall at that point. I enjoyed her crush on Kevin, though.

Young Randall's notes to himself about engaging with Kevin were heartbreaking. "When Kevin thinks you're being annoying, try talking about Karate Kid."  "Don't ask to use Kevin's Gameboy." Poor, sweet Randall. I was glad that Young Kevin had enough heart to understand those notes and to try harder with Randall. It's nice to see them together as adults even if they don't seem to have that same connection as in S1. 

^^This. 

KATE AND TOBY - Yes, I am really disliking Kate. She despises her mother even though she was extremely kind, loving and supportive of her. Kate returns the kindness by deeply hurting her mother and blaming her for Kate's own lack of discipline and control of her life. She assumes she is being judged solely for her weight and lashes out rudely to others due to her own self-hate. Toby tries to sabotage her by getting her to stop exercising and eat high calorie foods with him. He does not want the best for her, but wants her to be as much of a mess as he is so that she won't leave him.  His obnoxious grandstanding behavior is just exhausting and selfish.   And now, Kate's lack of discipline and irresponsible behavior resulted in this dangerously difficult pregnancy that will make losing weight all the more impossible considering her morbid obesity and age.

RANDALL AND DEJA - Randall's over-reaction to Deja's shrimp cocktail tasting was stupid.  His going in the restroom was stupid.  Deja cutting off all of her nice hair because Randall said he liked it was stupid. Was that supposed to mean she was sexually abused by the men? So, if the 'dad' in the household says you are pretty, you better make yourself look ugly so he won't try anything, right?  

RANDALL AND KEVIN - Those notes to himself looked like they were instructions from talking to Jack about how to get along with Kevin.  I am thinking Kevin hated Randall because they were so different and he felt Randall was an interloper who took away from his relationship with his own dad and mom.  I am glad he realized during that camping trip that Randall was not his enemy.

[Paloma]

44 minutes ago, Casually Observant said:

KATE AND TOBY - Yes, I am really disliking Kate. She despises her mother even though she was extremely kind, loving and supportive of her. Kate returns the kindness by deeply hurting her mother and blaming her for Kate's own lack of discipline and control of her life. She assumes she is being judged solely for her weight and lashes out rudely to others due to her own self-hate. Toby tries to sabotage her by getting her to stop exercising and eat high calorie foods with him. He does not want the best for her, but wants her to be as much of a mess as he is so that she won't leave him.  His obnoxious grandstanding behavior is just exhausting and selfish.   And now, Kate's lack of discipline and irresponsible behavior resulted in this dangerously difficult pregnancy that will make losing weight all the more impossible considering her morbid obesity and age.

Agree 100%, though my perspective is biased by my personal experience with my mother and daughter.

44 minutes ago, Casually Observant said:

RANDALL AND DEJA - Randall's over-reaction to Deja's shrimp cocktail tasting was stupid.  His going in the restroom was stupid.  Deja cutting off all of her nice hair because Randall said he liked it was stupid. Was that supposed to mean she was sexually abused by the men? So, if the 'dad' in the household says you are pretty, you better make yourself look ugly so he won't try anything, right?  

Randall's actions were dumb, but I don't agree that Deja cutting off her hair was stupid. In fact, "make yourself look ugly" (or get fat) is not an uncommon defense mechanism for girls who have been sexually abused. I don't know if Randall and Beth realized that or just thought it was a rebellious act.

47 minutes ago, Casually Observant said:

RANDALL AND KEVIN - Those notes to himself looked like they were instructions from talking to Jack about how to get along with Kevin.  I am thinking Kevin hated Randall because they were so different and he felt Randall was an interloper who took away from his relationship with his own dad and mom.  I am glad he realized during that camping trip that Randall was not his enemy.

I agree they looked like instructions from Jack, and mostly agree with Kevin hating Randall because they were different and because he saw Randall as an interloper--except it doesn't really make sense that Kevin could see him as an interloper when Randall has been one of the three children since birth? Maybe it's more that Randall is the outsider because he was adopted, and also that they are treated as triplets but Kevin and Kate have apparently always had a stronger connection due to being biological twins. Also, I hate to say this because I don't really think Kevin is racist, but part of his resentment as a child (not as an adult) may have been about seeing Randall getting special treatment and being aware that his parents may be more protective of him because of the discrimination factor. 

[Casually Observant]

On 10/25/2017 at 3:52 PM, SueB said:

[Kate's] Geriatric Pregnancy/Super Morbidly Obese Pregnancy - No ifs ands or buts, at 37, she's old for having a first baby.  At well over 300 pounds and her height? Her BMI would put her at Super Morbidly Obese.  So this is not only a high risk pregnancy, but Kate is at higher risk for death or long term health problems due to pregnancy. This sounds very harsh but all the good news stories give a false sense of security that waiting til after 35 is no problem and being severely overweight is not a big deal.  It REALLY IS.  Her baby is at 3X the risk for stillbirth, and a shit-ton more for birth defects.  But I'm still THRILLED for Kate that she's pregnant and really hope it turns out great.  

>>I agree about the very high risk pregnancy.  I think that in real life, she would miscarry which would add another layer of deep sadness and issues that she may never recover from. This may serve to balloon her weight even further.  I disagree on being thrilled for her pregnancy.  She is unhealthy, unprepared, morbidly obese, has a dysfunctional, controlling, weird boyfriend and offers nothing to root for in her current state, in my opinion.  I wouldn't want to be her or Toby's child, would you?

Kevin's addiction - ... he's hiding from Sophie.  She may not have even known he was on Vicodin to begin with.  He seemed to want to avoid that at the beginning and he hid that this was his solution to finishing the movie.  So, now he's in a corner and not asking for help.  And he's not rational about it either.  Kate is on the West Coast, Randall is distracted.  This is a job for Sophie.  And there is already the complication of not having been in the same city for months beforehand. So she may think it's something else. 

>>The fact that Sophie has not seen him for a while would make it EASIER for her to spot something physically and mentally wrong with Kevin. It is harder when you are around them and it happens slowly, little-by-little.  

Madison - needs help to find a group that fits her issues better. Was totally honest IMO in her reaction to Kate. And Kate should apologize to Madison for yelling at her.  But it's the group leader who needs to fix the mismatch.  Kate was way out of line but Madison's issue is not just a bad fit for this group but really disruptive.  

>>Yes, Madison should be in another group. And Kate needs to get a grip and quit being such a miserable, angry, entitled person.

Beth & Deja - They are really bonding and that's great.  And I suspect they will be able to bond over awkward Randall soon.  That'll be even better.  And HOW FUNNY was it to have Beth force Randall to hear that his brother is 'Smokin' Hot' and a 12 year old living with them has a crush on him?  Randall may need therapy but Beth tells it like it is.  

>>This episode is my favorite episode for Beth.  She showed wisdom, kindness, compassion and said just the right things to soothe Deja.   I'm glad they are portraying a softer, more real version of Beth instead of the snarky, b*tchy character they've had her play in the previous majority of episodes.

 

On 10/25/2017 at 4:57 PM, MissLucas said:

But wouldn't Kevin admit to simply feeling jealous - even it was embarrassing? Jack pretty much offered that up as an answer. The way that the scene was written and acted seemed to point at something else (or something more). Not implying Randall ever did anything to justify Kevin's behavior  because that'd be OOC. But I'm intrigued by the possibility that something else was going on beyond simple jealousy.

>>No matter how politically correct you might wish to be, the fact is that Randall is not their natural child and is 'an addition' to the original family. He looks different, was named differently, has different interests, attends a different school, has a different personality and receives different attention from the parents than Kevin does.  Since they share very little (other than household and parental units) in common, they are having trouble finding commonalities. I think it is realistic that Kevin is feeling slighted and neglected and less important, when in his mind, he should be higher in the pecking order, not lower. 

Point of interest: In my past, when I was 18 and a freshman in college and working full-time, my 18-year-old female cousin whom I'd only met once, came to visit my family right after she finished high school from a small town across the country. She was the opposite of me.  I was the 'good kid' she was the 'bad kid'. Her two-week visit turned into a permanent move into our home which had not been expected nor even discussed beforehand. She was a very wild and disobedient person and constantly broke the house rules. She under-age drank, smoked in the house, lied, 'borrowed without permission' my dad's car keys while drunk to go buy liquor, cigarettes and candy, and left empty beer cans and cigarette butts everywhere. She was unemployed and had boys over til 2:00 am.  She'd rush to answer the door in her bikini underwear and  t-shirt when I was expecting a date any minute, and then did her drunken best to see if he'd rather go out with her!  I was the rule follower, was forbidden to (and did not) smoke, drink or have boys over past midnight, had a job, and was expected to pay my own bills and clean the house. I was also expected to drive her everywhere in my car (that I paid for) and to help her apply for jobs and drive her to job interviews on my days off.  She sabotaged her interviews and could not get a job for months of effort, which I believe was on purpose.   

After a while, I was completely upset with my parents for allowing this situation to continue.  They were both working and socializing a lot so they 'chose' to ignore her behavior since they were not around to have to endure it.  After 6 months of this assault, I recounted her activity and disruptive behavior in detail to my parents and demanded they give her a deadline to move out and find other living arrangements, which they did.  She told her family that we kicked her out and it caused a huge rift with the out-of-state relatives, primarily because my parents were too cowardly to tell them about her ridiculous behavior.  So, my viewpoint on this may be skewed!

On 10/25/2017 at 5:02 PM, Lady Calypso said:

Not all people are good at expressing their feelings. Much like Kevin explained to Randall outside the bathroom, Kevin tends to run from his feelings. I used to be much like Kevin. Sometimes, I still am, where I have a lot of feelings but I retreat back into myself when confronted. Also, Kevin, at that age, may not be entirely sure what he's really feeling. It's quite a normal response, in my perspective, anyway. 

But yeah, there's probably something more, but jealousy is probably strong. 

>>Don't forget, they made a point of showing how when Kevin DID show his feelings when he was little, his dad told him to stop complaining and to be tough. So Kevin bottled up his feelings and tried not to feel them and now deals with his pain by ignoring it or taking pills. 

On 10/26/2017 at 6:53 AM, sadiegirl1999 said:

Honestly, I think the writers want to shove the "hey fat people have sex too" thing down our throat. 

As if we were dumb enough NOT to believe that in the 1st place. 

>>Well, I hate to be un-PC, but the truth of it is that very obese people usually CANNOT have normal sexual relations because it is difficult, if not impossible physically for them to 'match up' or 'reach' each other.  So all of this 'sexy times' discussion from Toby is fairly annoying and presents a picture in my mind that I do not want to 'see'.  Sorry.

[dargosmydaddy]

8 hours ago, laurakaye said:

I also noted that in the photo Jack looked at, Jack was staring straight at the camera and Nicky was sort of hunched over, smiling, but not looking at anyone.  Maybe that meant something, maybe it didn't.

I think someone brought this up already earlier in the thread, but the most likely explanation was that they hadn't cast the older version of Nicky yet when they shot this episode, and therefore couldn't use the actual actor in the picture.

[elle]

7 hours ago, Paloma said:

I agree they looked like instructions from Jack, and mostly agree with Kevin hating Randall because they were different and because he saw Randall as an interloper--except it doesn't really make sense that Kevin could see him as an interloper when Randall has been one of the three children since birth? Maybe it's more that Randall is the outsider because he was adopted, and also that they are treated as triplets but Kevin and Kate have apparently always had a stronger connection due to being biological twins. Also, I hate to say this because I don't really think Kevin is racist, but part of his resentment as a child (not as an adult) may have been about seeing Randall getting special treatment and being aware that his parents may be more protective of him because of the discrimination factor. 

I have found myself wondering what the relationship between Kevin and Kyle would have been, would they be super competitive or buddy up and leave Kate out of things.

4 hours ago, Casually Observant said:

>>Don't forget, they made a point of showing how when Kevin DID show his feelings when he was little, his dad told him to stop complaining and to be tough. So Kevin bottled up his feelings and tried not to feel them and now deals with his pain by ignoring it or taking pills. 

Thank you for the reminder of this, or in my case new info.  Which episode was this?

Randall/Deja -- I will give Randall/the writers credit for one thing in this story that they did NOT have Randall announce to Kevin that Deja had a crush on him.  That would have been so devastating to her.  I really hope they are not waiting to drop that bomb and let this slip away.

[NYCFree]

4 hours ago, Casually Observant said:

 

>>Well, I hate to be un-PC, but the truth of it is that very obese people usually CANNOT have normal sexual relations because it is difficult, if not impossible physically for them to 'match up' or 'reach' each other.  So all of this 'sexy times' discussion from Toby is fairly annoying and presents a picture in my mind that I do not want to 'see'.  Sorry.

Not true from personal experience. Not going on the TMI path.

 

On  a different vein, I would totally have grabbed my kid's hand if he were about to put something dangerous in his mouth, or touch something that could hurt him.  I m surprised that so many said they would quickly say something to their child.  Perhaps my brain works more slowly than others, I just don't think I could get from "DANGER" to , "oh she won't choke, I'll just alert her that it's not meant to be eaten," within that fraction of a second between my mind perceiving a danger, to my hand reaching out to stop the action.

[Guest]

I thought Randall's note to himself, or whoever the note giving him advice about Kevin was from, was kind of weird.  They're around each other all the time and have been their whole lives.  Why would he need notes to remember or know how not to irritate his brother on any particular day?  I suppose it was just for audience exposition, though.  But that sort of thing is just ingrained in people.  That's why I thought maybe the notes were tips from Kate.  Maybe she tended to be the mediator between them or something.  

[methodwriter85]

3 hours ago, dargosmydaddy said:

I think someone brought this up already earlier in the thread, but the most likely explanation was that they hadn't cast the older version of Nicky yet when they shot this episode, and therefore couldn't use the actual actor in the picture.

That might have been me. I do think it's pretty obvious they were trying to obscure what Nicky looked like as much as possible, probably because they haven't cast him yet.

[possibilities]

Adopted children are not universally rejected or resented by other kids in the family, and Kevin and Randall were brought home at the same time, as newborns. Also, Randall is not disruptive and hellacious to live with. Siblings often have conflicts, whether they are blood relatives or not. I think if they go down the road of "Kevin resents Randall because he's 'different'" I will consider it to be horrible writing and a cheap and insulting choice. I really hope that's not where this is headed.

I would like to see more Randall-Kate scenes, in any era.

Fat people can have sex. Also, there are lots of ways to have sex. I'm more irritated by the implication that couples who are not TRYING to have children would be DELIGHTED to discover a pregnancy. I get that contraception fails sometimes, but we have not been led to believe Kate and Toby have been trying to conceive.

I would grab something that I thought was dangerous , but I guess I don't think of a shrimp tail as being dangerous. Is that really something someone would choke on? I mean, she'd try to chew it, and it would be unpleasant, but it's not poisonous or obviously going to choke her. If she was about to step into traffic, or drink bleach, sure. But she was nibbling slowly and Randall had plenty of time to say something, plus it wasn't that big of a hazard; at least that's how it looked to me.

I think the actress who plays Deja is great. But I was surprised, even with a crush, that she wasn't freaked out by Kevin grabbing food off her plate.

I wish we'd seen the aftermath of Deja chopping off her hair. How did Beth and Randall handle that? Clearly she's had it re-cut and shaped since then, but did they talk with her, what did that look like, did they take her somewhere, did one of them do it? How did the other kids react? I wish this show didn't gloss over so many beats and drop the ball on follow up so often.

Edited October 28, 2017 by possibilities