S02.E01: Everything Is Great! (1) / S02.E02: Everything Is Great! (2)

[Texasmom1970]

Had to watch on Hulu last night I did not know this was back already. Holy shirt have I missed this show, what an amazing season opener. Loved every minute of it, I especially love how Jason, a.k.a. Bone head Jones can make me laugh with just his facial expressions. Cannot wait until he starts talking again!

[Affogato]

On 9/21/2017 at 4:59 PM, thuganomics85 said:

The Good Place is back!  Naturally, the special premiere had to be when I was at work, but I'm glad its normal spot it Thursdays, when I will be able to watch  

Me too, exactly. Stupid wednesdays!

 

i think Janet picks up the ball for round two and finds her fiancée?

[meep.meep]

On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 10:15 AM, Chippings said:

Whoa !  How many message boards are there where you get references to Jean Paul Sartre ?  And indeed, in how many network comedies?  This was amazing.  I'm embarrassed it didn't occur to me after seeing the episodes last night, but - Yes, exactly.   Thank you Tennisgurl for making the connection.  

Modern Family did a No Exit episode several seasons back.  

And you people have horrible taste in pizza!

I expect that all the books will be replaced by paperback romance novels to drive Chidi around the bend.

[iMonrey]

Quote

Hawaiian pizza, pod coffee and froyo seem like Medium Place features to me.

Plus Hotel California . . . but only the live version. Actually, I like pod coffee. So there.

[Nordly Beaumont]

On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 0:34 AM, possibilities said:

Butthole spiders! I'm so glad you all have better hearing than I do. I thought they said "butthole spreaders"-- which might actually be worse.

That's what I thought too! I'm not sure which would be worse!

[DEM]

I want a 'making of' vid for these eps! There is so much great continuity fun in the background. For example, when Eleanor first meets Jason, you can see the edge of Luang's nightgown by the kites. Also, when Eleanor & Chidi first meet by the bar, you can hear Glenn in the background say "Twinsies!" to Tahani.

OK, back to the re-watch. I had to pause just to post this.

[cpcathy]

Wow, I rewatched on Friday and didn't quite notice that. Do not delete this show from your DVRs!

[Big Mother]

I found the first 20 minutes a little boring, but when the stories started intersecting and intertwining and each of the four were tortured in their own exquisite ways it became intriguing.

however I think if someone didnt watch Season 1 they would be really lost about what the spoon and fork is going on here :D. This kinda felt like a 1-hour movie-special sequel. It was dizzying. And the Fab Four still don't know what was really happening. Michael just gave up real fast, once he realized the source of the 'betrayal'.

[Affogato]

On ‎9‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 6:49 PM, DEM said:

I want a 'making of' vid for these eps! There is so much great continuity fun in the background. For example, when Eleanor first meets Jason, you can see the edge of Luang's nightgown by the kites. Also, when Eleanor & Chidi first meet by the bar, you can hear Glenn in the background say "Twinsies!" to Tahani.

OK, back to the re-watch. I had to pause just to post this.

When they went back and showed the connections between the core group's actions it was sublime. 

On ‎9‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 4:52 PM, Nordly Beaumont said:

That's what I thought too! I'm not sure which would be worse!

I'm going for spreaders but I'm always on the side of living creatures!

[Amarsir]

On 9/22/2017 at 2:05 PM, possibilities said:

Hawaiian pizza, pod coffee and froyo seem like Medium Place features to me. It's hilarious and wonderful that the show is basically saying that annoyance and mediocrity and having to fake being good is a worse fate than total deprivation, "butt spiders" and other physical torments.

Michael did have that great line in season 1: "There's something very human about taking something you enjoy and ruining it a little so you can have more of it."

There seems to be an overriding implication that a truly good person doesn't want to enjoy visceral pleasure. Because of this whether they're faking it like Eleanor, or trying to convince themselves like Chidi and Tahani, the show can throw annoyances at them and they have to act like it's what they want. That alone makes it worse than a medium place because there's the air of self-torture.

[ByTor]

On 9/23/2017 at 4:52 PM, Nordly Beaumont said:

On 9/22/2017 at 1:34 AM, possibilities said:

Butthole spiders! I'm so glad you all have better hearing than I do. I thought they said "butthole spreaders"-- which might actually be worse.

That's what I thought too! I'm not sure which would be worse!

Maybe it's that the only music they can listen to is Butthole Surfers, which is also pretty damn tortuous! :)

On 9/23/2017 at 2:00 PM, iMonrey said:

Actually, I like pod coffee. So there.

I do too!  But oatmeal raisin cookies (blergh) washed down with some IPA (double blergh, I'm a lager/pilsner person) would be perfect "Bad Place" torture for me.

On 9/23/2017 at 8:51 AM, Texasmom1970 said:

Jason, a.k.a. Bone head Jones can make me laugh with just his facial expressions.

The look on his face after drinking the yak's milk was hilarious!  I also loved the callback to his use of the term "prank show." 

ETA:  I like "Denise" bitching about her role, she's consistent with last season, when she got pissed that Eleanor figured out they were in The Bad Place before she was able to make her speech to Chidi.

Edited September 25, 2017 by ByTor

[Chaos Theory]

One of the more interesting questions is why someone like Chidi is in The Bad Place. Eleanor and Jason are kinda obvious and Tahani despite her good deads is selfish and self serving.   It would be interesting to see the Fab Four's  true score because my guess (and it would be a funny sight gag) is Chidi's score is 0.00.  He essentially didn't do anything "bad" in life but he didn't do anything "good" either.   Every action he did take was counteracted by an action he didn't or making the people around him so annoyed that he lost all the points.  In truth if anyone deserves the Middle Place it would probably be Chidi but then my guess is he's been living there his whole life.

The irony of Chidi is I don't think he's ever been this alive then when he is with Eleanor.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[CurlyATX]

This weekend, we watched this episode, rewatched several key episodes from S1, then rewatched this episode (since hubs didn't see it).  Ok, I know I have a problem...

All of you made my points but I wanted to add that there was something very " backstage at a high school theater" about it all which I just loved (have been a drama geek).  Upon rewatching the older episodes I am really loving the general "bad place"-ness of Michael's office life- you've mentioned it before, crappy coworkers, young kid who is higher than you, the interruptions at your big staff meeting, etc.  I enjoy this new take on Michael having to juggle coworkers/judgey boss/the Fab 4.    Eleanor is extremely intelligent and intuitive- I wonder how her life could have improved if she had made different choices.

I'm petite like Kristen Bell, so I LOVE all the "Sexy Giraffe" and "legs for days" and "Sexy Skyscraper" comments...I'm going to have to use them on all my tall friends. 

count me on team pineapple/peperoni (not ham, ew!) and I am a firm anti raisinist  in all cookies/baked goods.

[Kromm]

2 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

One of the more interesting questions is why someone like Chidi is in The Bad Place. Eleanor and Jason are kinda obvious and Tahani despite her good deads is selfish and self serving.   It would be interesting to see the Fab Four's  true score because my guess (and it would be a funny sight gag) is Chidi's score is 0.00.  He essentially didn't do anything "bad" in life but he didn't do anything "good" either.   Every action he did take was counteracted by an action he didn't or making the people around him so annoyed that he lost all the points.  In truth if anyone deserves the Middle Place it would probably be Chidi but then my guess is he's been living there his whole life.

The irony of Chidi is I don't think he's ever been this alive then when he is with Eleanor.

Chidi is a procrastinator and at times holier than thou. But his overriding sin is hypocrisy. He studied morality but from what we saw didn't practice it. He wasn't a bad person, but I believe as far as we heard and saw about his past he never took action to help those around him either., "Words, not deeds"  is the phrase to describe his life. Part of this links to his constant indecision, true, but there's also an element of selfishness to it to. It's less effort to judge others than to do good deeds yourself. 

[Kel Varnsen]

On 22/09/2017 at 8:01 AM, Mabinogia said:

I love how fairly mundane the tortures are. Hawaiian pizza, froyo, pod coffee. Why bring out the fire and brimstone when you can slowly chip away at a man's soul by ruining the things he loves. It is truly diabolical. Michael is an evil genius. 

It kind of makes sense because consider that if the real Good Place was sort of a heaven type they would probably have the greatest possible pizza/coffee or whatever available whenever you want. Knowing that you are not getting that and instead you are getting an eternity of sub-par pizza would totally be torture.

[DrScottie]

On 9/22/2017 at 8:01 AM, Mabinogia said:

I love how fairly mundane the tortures are. Hawaiian pizza, froyo, pod coffee. Why bring out the fire and brimstone when you can slowly chip away at a man's soul by ruining the things he loves. It is truly diabolical. Michael is an evil genius. 

Hawaiian seems to be the only choice for pizza and reflects Michael's disgust for it. The Bad Place crew in Episode 8 order 100 of them delivered to his office, He called it the worst pizza. I suppose you could take off the ham and pineapple, but you'll still get some of the taste. I actually don't mind it, but I like pineapple.  

As for froyo, there were too many options to choose from. Great for Eleanor to torture others by holding up the line sampling them, but she does stop doing that under Chidi's tutelage. That'would be torture for Chidi for his indecisiveness and even was used by Michael to compel Chidi to choose his soulmate.  Yogurts for Eleanor, Real Eleanor, and a hypothetical third person of Strawberry Mango Twist (Tahani?)

[tominboston]

I was planning to give up on this show after last season's finale blew up the whole premise and left me feeling down on the writers, but when I read the highly positive reviews of the Season 2 premier here I decided to check it out last night. I'm glad I did. That was pretty funny and I especially enjoyed the discussions among the various demons... no biting! The Good/Not Good Place is definitely back on my watch list for this season.

[Affogato]

23 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

One of the more interesting questions is why someone like Chidi is in The Bad Place. Eleanor and Jason are kinda obvious and Tahani despite her good deads is selfish and self serving.   It would be interesting to see the Fab Four's  true score because my guess (and it would be a funny sight gag) is Chidi's score is 0.00.  He essentially didn't do anything "bad" in life but he didn't do anything "good" either.   Every action he did take was counteracted by an action he didn't or making the people around him so annoyed that he lost all the points.  In truth if anyone deserves the Middle Place it would probably be Chidi but then my guess is he's been living there his whole life.

The irony of Chidi is I don't think he's ever been this alive then when he is with Eleanor.

Last season we see Chidi flashbacks where he compliments this professor?advisor?friend?'s boots, is given a pair, really hates them and when the person is on his deathbed, bonding with Chidi, Chidi breaks down in a fit of honesty and tells the person he hates his boots (and so on). This is bad, in my opinion. . Chidi was not only a bad person to someone he didn't have to befriend, he was a nasty one. That he did it entirely to make himself feel better makes it worse.  (I find the exact specifics of this scene escape me, sorry, but I think I remember the set up and it showed why Chidi would be in the bad place).

I still think the score card is selfishness, caring about your own issues (whether airing out your feet on a plane or being absolutely honest) and not caring at all about the feelings of others. I think Chidi qualifies as much as Eleanor.

[Jobiska]

I had to pause the DVR so my whole family could laugh as long as we wanted at Chidi's sudden realization about drinking almond milk even though he knew it was bad for the environment.  

I also really liked Bitey Demon's biting noises one of the times he asked about, well, biting.

[CherithCutestory]

On 9/25/2017 at 2:18 PM, Chaos Theory said:

One of the more interesting questions is why someone like Chidi is in The Bad Place. Eleanor and Jason are kinda obvious and Tahani despite her good deads is selfish and self serving.   It would be interesting to see the Fab Four's  true score because my guess (and it would be a funny sight gag) is Chidi's score is 0.00.  He essentially didn't do anything "bad" in life but he didn't do anything "good" either.   Every action he did take was counteracted by an action he didn't or making the people around him so annoyed that he lost all the points.  In truth if anyone deserves the Middle Place it would probably be Chidi but then my guess is he's been living there his whole life.

The irony of Chidi is I don't think he's ever been this alive then when he is with Eleanor.

I think you're 100% right. And just to add to what others have said about Chidi (which I agree with completely) I think he is summed up pretty well in the first season finale. He doesn't suggest taking a spot in the Bad Place until Real Eleanor/Vicky says she'll go because her soulmate doesn't love her. And then he only does so because he knows he'll feel guilty about her going forever and it won't be the Good Place. When Tahani suggests that she and he go to the Bad Place he responds "the whole reason I was going to the Bad Place was because Real Eleanor. If you go to the Bad Place it doesn't make sense for me to go..."

It only makes sense for him to go when he knows he'll be miserable anyway. Not because he's some horribly selfish guy (he isn't.) But because that's how he sees morality. As something to dig down into until you get to the absolute truth of the matter. Not just doing the right thing or a good thing for someone else for the sake of it. He's too in his own head.

He sees morality as a mostly rational thing to the extreme that it becomes completely meaningless.

Telling the guy he liked his boots was a nice thing even if it was a lie. Telling a guy he hated his boots after major surgery was a bad thing even if it was the truth. That something that we understand instinctively. But he could never just trust his instincts.

[ByTor]

I watched the episode a few more times since I liked it so much, and I noticed something on rewatch.  In the scene where Eleanor slid the shots she poured to Tahani (we didn't know yet that it was Tahani) to go talk to Chidi, you can hear in the background the "garbageman from Winnipeg" (I always forget that character's name!) yelling "Twinsies!!!" to Tahani upon seeing her in the cargo pants.

[ByTor]

On 9/22/2017 at 0:07 AM, Amarsir said:

On 9/21/2017 at 11:38 PM, jumper sage said:

Wait a minute!  Was it one hour long show, 2 hour long shows or 2 1/2 hour shows?  I watched 1 hour.  Did I miss something?

The standard show is a half hour. This was a double length full hour. (I'm not sure where exactly the cut would be if it was split.)

I watched on Hulu, and (without commercials) the time totaled about 42 minutes.  At around 20-22 minutes, Eleanor asked her "magical amulet" to do something so she wouldn't have to give her speech, and then the screen went black (after which they proceeded with the Tahani/Jason stories), so if it were two episodes, I think this is where it would have split.

I forgot to mention, I love that the philosophers in the Bad Place have to go to school naked, take tests they didn't study for, then get hit with hammers LOL.

[Tetraneutron]

On 9/21/2017 at 1:37 PM, CherithCutestory said:

Totally, I loved this plot point and how they explored it. On the surface, last season Tahani got the perfect afterlife. The huge mansion and perfect clothes meant she could throw parties and be admired. A Buddhist monk demonstrated that she really was a spiritual person. Otherwise why would she land such a soulmate? She even had Eleanor to feel superior to.

She couldn't really say anything or be openly disgruntled because it would reflect poorly on her if she couldn't get along with a forking monk.

This time she has nothing to cling to.

 

I think it was interesting that Tahani wants more than anything to be admired and the Good Place is designed to never give her that. With the closest being Eleanor who thinks she's hot. 

On 9/21/2017 at 3:21 PM, The Companion said:

I think a lot of people have pointed out a lot of great points for this, so I will try not to overlap. One of the things that made sense in last season was that Eleanor was given a house that she would have hated, but the reason was that real Eleanor would have loved it. The yogurt/yurt also fit this theme, but Tahani's house did not. She believed she should be there (she clearly wasn't confused for someone else), so it didn't make sense that she would be put into the house she got.  It was a huge tell for the characters that the Good Place wasn't all that good.  

I do think her behavior was consistent with her character from last year, namely that she thrives in her comfort zone but struggles when things don't go her way. 

I agree. Their mistake is making it too obvious that things are not all great in the Good Place. They really needed to start off slowly and then have bad things creep in. Suddenly that perfect soul mate eats with her mouth open or hogs the covers or has a really specific fetish. People keep misunderstanding things you say and getting offended. That type of thing. It was really entertaining, however, to watch as an audience member in the know. 

I think it made sense for Tahani to get a house she didn't like. Her deal is that she's spent her whole life pretending she cares about others but just pretends to because she's jealous of her sister. The tiny house, the guy, is her being tortured by having to spend all day acknowledging to herself that she's shallow, that she's not the selfless philanthropist they think she is. 

And one of my FAVOURITE things about last season was all the subtle ways heaven wasn't heaven. The frozen yogurt being a big one, even before Eleanor asked and Michael gave her a bs explanation it was a little hint something was off. Same with the Hawaiian pizza which was a quick throwaway line last season - especially funny since the creator of the show has a podcast where he talks about how he hates cooked fruit. And why do people have jobs in The Good Place? And why would Jianyu the monk want to live in an ornate palace with Tahani?

On 9/25/2017 at 5:05 PM, Kromm said:

Chidi is a procrastinator and at times holier than thou. But his overriding sin is hypocrisy. He studied morality but from what we saw didn't practice it. He wasn't a bad person, but I believe as far as we heard and saw about his past he never took action to help those around him either., "Words, not deeds"  is the phrase to describe his life. Part of this links to his constant indecision, true, but there's also an element of selfishness to it to. It's less effort to judge others than to do good deeds yourself. 

Chidi isn't a procrastinator. That implies laziness. His problem wasn't that he judged others or preached behaviour he didn't engage in himself. He wasn't a hypocrite. His problem is indecision. He's in The Bad Place because his inability to make a decision hurt other people. We saw that in his flashbacks. Obsessing over everything meant he wasn't there for his friends and family. Not because he didn't care (like Eleanor) or was too self-absorbed (like Tahani) but because he was tried but wasn't able. It's different because it doesn't qualify as something we think of as bad, or really as a character flaw. He tried to help but didn't have the ability. It's more subtle. 

Personally I love what they've done with Chidi so far. He's a character who needs rules and logic for the world to make sense and I think we're going to see how being a rule-follower can be a problem, how trusting in a perfect system where if you acr right good things happen doesn't really exist. 

[Empress1]

On 9/26/2017 at 5:14 AM, DrScottie said:

Hawaiian seems to be the only choice for pizza and reflects Michael's disgust for it. The Bad Place crew in Episode 8 order 100 of them delivered to his office, He called it the worst pizza. I suppose you could take off the ham and pineapple, but you'll still get some of the taste. I actually don't mind it, but I like pineapple.  

As for froyo, there were too many options to choose from. Great for Eleanor to torture others by holding up the line sampling them, but she does stop doing that under Chidi's tutelage. That'would be torture for Chidi for his indecisiveness and even was used by Michael to compel Chidi to choose his soulmate.  Yogurts for Eleanor, Real Eleanor, and a hypothetical third person of Strawberry Mango Twist (Tahani?)

I love pineapple but not on pizza. Never on pizza.

18 minutes ago, Tetraneutron said:

I think it was interesting that Tahani wants more than anything to be admired and the Good Place is designed to never give her that. With the closest being Eleanor who thinks she's hot. 

I think it made sense for Tahani to get a house she didn't like. Her deal is that she's spent her whole life pretending she cares about others but just pretends to because she's jealous of her sister. The tiny house, the guy, is her being tortured by having to spend all day acknowledging to herself that she's shallow, that she's not the selfless philanthropist they think she is. 

And one of my FAVOURITE things about last season was all the subtle ways heaven wasn't heaven. The frozen yogurt being a big one, even before Eleanor asked and Michael gave her a bs explanation it was a little hint something was off. Same with the Hawaiian pizza which was a quick throwaway line last season - especially funny since the creator of the show has a podcast where he talks about how he hates cooked fruit. And why do people have jobs in The Good Place? And why would Jianyu the monk want to live in an ornate palace with Tahani?

Chidi isn't a procrastinator. That implies laziness. His problem wasn't that he judged others or preached behaviour he didn't engage in himself. He wasn't a hypocrite. His problem is indecision. He's in The Bad Place because his inability to make a decision hurt other people. We saw that in his flashbacks. Obsessing over everything meant he wasn't there for his friends and family. Not because he didn't care (like Eleanor) or was too self-absorbed (like Tahani) but because he was tried but wasn't able. It's different because it doesn't qualify as something we think of as bad, or really as a character flaw. He tried to help but didn't have the ability. It's more subtle. 

Personally I love what they've done with Chidi so far. He's a character who needs rules and logic for the world to make sense and I think we're going to see how being a rule-follower can be a problem, how trusting in a perfect system where if you acr right good things happen doesn't really exist. 

I don't think procrastination always implies laziness. I think it's linked to perfectionism at least some of the time - if you don't start a thing, you can't mess up that thing. I think that's tied into Chidi's extreme difficulty making decisions. He wants to make exactly the right decision but since you can't know everything, he ends up getting in his own way.

I was job-hunting for a while and I told my therapist that I was afraid of making the wrong choice. And she was like, but you can't know how a thing is going to be until you do it, and if it's wrong, you figure out a way to make it work or you move on. Most decisions can be undone. (And the job I chose is not what I expected or wanted at all due to some major changes in leadership that I couldn't have predicted, so I do have to move on, and my therapist has been really helpful as I sort through that.)

I agree about Tahani. Her setup is her confronting all the stuff she's trying to hide, over and over - forcing her to admit that the selfless act she's been putting on all her life is just that.

I totally agree about all the clues that The Good Place was the Bad Place. I love twists and I love going back to see if you can spot the twist once you know it. 

[Mabinogia]

4 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

I don't think procrastination always implies laziness. I think it's linked to perfectionism at least some of the time - if you don't start a thing, you can't mess up that thing. I think that's tied into Chidi's extreme difficulty making decisions. He wants to make exactly the right decision but since you can't know everything, he ends up getting in his own way.

I relate to Chidi because I too am a procrastinator out of fear. I think he overthinks everything. I think he's in the bad place because his inaction is selfish, not on purpose, he's not trying to hurt people, but he is and he doesn't seem to realize it (at least not when he was alive). 

 

What I love about this show, well, one of the many things I love about this show, is how it looks at "good" and "bad". Chidi, Eleanor, Jason and Tahani are all "bad" in very different ways. It makes me think that perhaps Michael is trying to find a less torturous way to deal with people who aren't the best, but really aren't that terrible. I mean, vanity, indecision, stupidity and selfishness aren't really cause to be tortured with butt spiders for eternity. Or have all food turn to spiders in your mouth. But having to spend eternity eating Hawaiian pizza and drinking pod coffee sounds about right. Mediocre badness deserve mediocre punishment. 

[biakbiak]

7 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

makes me think that perhaps Michael is trying to find a less torturous way to deal with people who aren't the best, but really aren't that terrible. I

I think you are being way too generous to Michael.

[Amarsir]

9 hours ago, Tetraneutron said:

And why do people have jobs in The Good Place?

I keep circling around to this implication that "good people" enjoy themselves by not indulging. Sacrifices make sense on earth - a smaller home, less food, or volunteer work all are done so there's more for others. But in the infinite afterlife? To say "I don't *need* a bigger house" makes no sense - need is irrelevant. And if Real Eleanor existed, I'm sure she'd be proud of her hunger strike but I rather suspect her favorite meal would be whatever she ate *after* that. Michael is selling a concept that isn't necessarily true.

So having jobs plays into that image. You can get the humans to suffer willingly if they think that's how they're supposed to *want* to act.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Amarsir

[Fukui San]

I think this "Good Place" is Michael's conception of what people would expect heaven to be. Based on the stated criteria of getting into The Good Place, which are acts of true generosity and kindness, I'd expect the real Good Place is less about material comforts and more opportunities to do real good. Chances to go back to Earth and guardian angel something. Not just sit around eating pizza. 

[Empress1]

2 hours ago, Fukui San said:

I think this "Good Place" is Michael's conception of what people would expect heaven to be. Based on the stated criteria of getting into The Good Place, which are acts of true generosity and kindness, I'd expect the real Good Place is less about material comforts and more opportunities to do real good. Chances to go back to Earth and guardian angel something. Not just sit around eating pizza. 

Also wouldn't you get bored sitting around eating pizza for all eternity? If I came into "never work again" money, I wouldn't punch anybody's clock but I WOULD do something (after my yearlong five-star trip around the world). Probably start a foundation. I know a number of people who retired and then started working again, either volunteering or paid. My friend's dad retired from his job as a partner in a law firm and HATED being retired, so he does a lot of pro bono work. It's not too much of a stretch to me that folks would be looking for something to do. Maybe the Good Place part is that work has no stress.

[Anela]

16 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I relate to Chidi because I too am a procrastinator out of fear. I think he overthinks everything. I think he's in the bad place because his inaction is selfish, not on purpose, he's not trying to hurt people, but he is and he doesn't seem to realize it (at least not when he was alive). 

 

I am, too. It does drive family members crazy. It drives *me* crazy. :) 

[DrScottie]

On 9/27/2017 at 11:17 AM, ByTor said:

the "garbageman from Winnipeg" (I always forget that character's name!) yelling "Twinsies!!!" 

Glenn. 

My guess is that Michael's higher ups want him retired, possibly because he is not keen on physical torment. I think that's why he got his own project. He thinks it's a reward for what he's done, but the "Good Place" experiment is their way of providing justification to get rid of him through the Eternal Shriek. Some of his crew might be working to ensure it fails as well. This is a group of demons we are talking about here. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

One of the more interesting questions is why someone like Chidi is in The Bad Place. Eleanor and Jason are kinda obvious and Tahani despite her good deads is selfish and self serving.   It would be interesting to see the Fab Four's  true score because my guess (and it would be a funny sight gag) is Chidi's score is 0.00.  He essentially didn't do anything "bad" in life but he didn't do anything "good" either.  

If we take it at face value that most people wind up in the bad place, and only a very select few wind up in the good place, then Chidi winds up in the bad place merely by default. And when we learned about the middle place, it was less a "score of zero" than a cancelling out of deeds - she had done some really awful things but made up for them with really good things. If all Chidi has done is annoy people with his indecision he winds up in the bad place.

[Danny Franks]

This was a good season opener. The new knowledge that everyone else is a demon gives the writers leeway to have fun with the amorality of them. So they can be obsessed with biting the humans, or want to get the 'lead role' of breaking hearts. 

Eleanor seems to have kept some of her growth, and it was interesting that her suspicions soon overtook her sense of self preservation. But giving her a hot soulmate to ogle doesn't seem that hellish, given what we know about her life.

Now, Tahani getting a short, schlubby, ascetic and the humble house to go with him was more obviously torture. But again, she did try to get on-board (she even wore Crocs!), and she didn't complain or show her frustrations until she was drunk. She is definitely a nice person, even if the roots of her character come from a selfish place.

I liked the torture they set up for Chidi, with the decision he had to make between two potential soulmates, but they immediately made it easy for him by having one be terrible and the other be perfect. I don't really see why, because him being stuck in indecision seems more like torture than giving him the dud.

What I did not like was the second reset, undoing everything that happened in the episode. I really get into shows for continuity and on-going stories. I don't do procedurals, and I have no truck with "this is out of continuity, but ain't it cool?" episodes, so effectively erasing the previous forty minutes annoyed me. It also has me extremely wary that this could be repeated several times, to undo things or get writers out of narrative jams, and I'm not a fan of that either.

I found Real Eleanor/Denise's frustrations over her new, diminished role interesting. And I wonder whether she might end up as an unwitting ally to the humans, to get back at Michael. I hope so, because I really enjoyed the actress in season one, and was disappointed that she turned out to be fake.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Danny Franks

[sharifa70]

I want to learn plumbing just so I can call myself a clog wench.

[CherithCutestory]

Quote

Now, Tahani getting a short, schlubby, ascetic and the humble house to go with him was more obviously torture. But again, she did try to get on-board (she even wore Crocs!), and she didn't complain or show her frustrations until she was drunk. She is definitely a nice person, even if the roots of her character come from a selfish place.

Totally agree., I think the key to her is it wasn't the clothes or the soulmate or the house that really broke her. It was Eleanor being the Best Person and wearing a sash. And it was someone else hosting and doing the entertaining.

She desperately does want nice clothes and a nice house and a perfect soulmate. But really she wants to be appreciated more. She wants to do things for others and be acknowledged for it.

Her intentions may not be the most noble but they aren't really as shallow as they may seem either.

Quote

I want to learn plumbing just so I can call myself a clog wench.

Just dress like one! Think of all the pockets you can put shrimp in.

[Tetraneutron]

13 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

 

Now, Tahani getting a short, schlubby, ascetic and the humble house to go with him was more obviously torture. But again, she did try to get on-board (she even wore Crocs!), and she didn't complain or show her frustrations until she was drunk. She is definitely a nice person, even if the roots of her character come from a selfish place.

I liked the torture they set up for Chidi, with the decision he had to make between two potential soulmates, but they immediately made it easy for him by having one be terrible and the other be perfect. I don't really see why, because him being stuck in indecision seems more like torture than giving him the dud.

The torture with Chidi wasn't that he had to make a decision, but that he had an intense desire to not follow the rules. His whole thing is he tries to know exactly what the rules are, what you have to do to be a good person, and now he knows what they are, (there's a system and computer and everything) and he wants something different than what they system is telling him. THAT'S his torture. It's like the reason he keeps obsessing over almond milk. He wants something, but his understanding of the rules tell him it's bad. And all his indecisions are him trying to figure out what the objective right decision is. That's what his flashbacks were about.

As for Tahani, I wouldn't describe her as particularly nice. Being able to keep quiet because you have good manners, or because you know speaking up might cause people to judge you negatively, isn't nice. She didn't make a good-faith effort to get on board, just didn't want the neighbourhood to see her as selfish or shallow. She looks down on everyone and (except Chidi last year) only cares about other people as props to make her look good. In a weird way her flaw is similar to Chidi's in that she needs some kind of external validation. Jason, honestly, fits your description better. He's basically a nice person, just a dumb gross sleazebag. 

19 hours ago, DrScottie said:

Glenn. 

My guess is that Michael's higher ups want him retired, possibly because he is not keen on physical torment. I think that's why he got his own project. He thinks it's a reward for what he's done, but the "Good Place" experiment is their way of providing justification to get rid of him through the Eternal Shriek. Some of his crew might be working to ensure it fails as well. This is a group of demons we are talking about here. 

Which is weird, because a lot of the descriptions of the Bad Place in season 1 weren't physical torment either. They were guys who tell women to smile, having to plan a baby shower, take a test you haven't studied for, a train that gets warmer one degree each time you think about the heat. That's different from fire and penis flatteners. 

[Amarsir]

23 minutes ago, Tetraneutron said:

Which is weird, because a lot of the descriptions of the Bad Place in season 1 weren't physical torment either. They were guys who tell women to smile, having to plan a baby shower, take a test you haven't studied for, a train that gets warmer one degree each time you think about the heat. That's different from fire and penis flatteners. 

But if you forget a name you get shocked. And then after the test the philosophers get hit by hammers.  It seems mental torment was the headline, but physical was the kicker.

[Danny Franks]

57 minutes ago, Tetraneutron said:

The torture with Chidi wasn't that he had to make a decision, but that he had an intense desire to not follow the rules. His whole thing is he tries to know exactly what the rules are, what you have to do to be a good person, and now he knows what they are, (there's a system and computer and everything) and he wants something different than what they system is telling him. THAT'S his torture. It's like the reason he keeps obsessing over almond milk. He wants something, but his understanding of the rules tell him it's bad. And all his indecisions are him trying to figure out what the objective right decision is. That's what his flashbacks were about.

That's fair enough, but in that case they need to be more explicit about what these rules are, because I don't think it's been said anywhere that having a soulmate means you can't be friends with, or in a relationship with, someone else. The two soulmate pairings we saw in season one weren't romantic relationships, and didn't seem to be restrictive in any way. I'm sure Michael said at one point that some soulmate bonds were romantic, some platonic. Chidi having one girl as a soulmate but wanting to spend time with another doesn't seem like much of a breach of the rules.

Quote

As for Tahani, I wouldn't describe her as particularly nice. Being able to keep quiet because you have good manners, or because you know speaking up might cause people to judge you negatively, isn't nice. She didn't make a good-faith effort to get on board, just didn't want the neighbourhood to see her as selfish or shallow. She looks down on everyone and (except Chidi last year) only cares about other people as props to make her look good. In a weird way her flaw is similar to Chidi's in that she needs some kind of external validation. Jason, honestly, fits your description better. He's basically a nice person, just a dumb gross sleazebag. 

She speaks up because she wants to help people. We saw that in season one on multiple occasions. Vanity doesn't mean you can't be a nice person, and I think Tahani demonstrates that. Even if the niceness is motivated by the praise she receives for it, it's still nice of her to throw parties for people, to raise funds for charity, to positively reinforce Michael when his confidence is low, to befriend Eleanor (who honestly isn't exactly good friend material). Yes, she prides herself on how she looks (and given that she's a model, that's hardly surprising) but when she discovers her soulmate doesn't care about how he looks, she goes along with it. No one said she had to, and she wasn't doing it to demean him. Of course, she's flawed (if she wasn't, she wouldn't be there), but the whole points system is based on the fact that this isn't a binary system, and that there's a whole spectrum of goodness and badness.

This idea that only true altruism is worthy hits on the idea of psychological egoism, where the person does good things because they get a good feeling from doing them, therefore it's selfishly motivated.  And I think we can agree that there is definitely a degree of selfishness in her actions, but it's not a selfishness that hurts anyone. Rather, her desire is to see people happy, and I can't really criticise that. We've also see her try again, when things went wrong and she felt worse after a charitable act, rather than better.

As for Jason, all of his flashbacks demonstrate a tendency towards sociopathy, with his utterly remorseless approach to everyone and everything. Annoyed that you aren't feeling validated? Break your deal with the DJ and then blow his boat up. Need money? Just decide to rob the restaurant you're currently eating in. He is loyal to his friends, but to him, anyone else really is a prop or tool to further whatever it is he wants. Yet still, he's not an overall bad person, because he doesn't act with malice, just a worrying inability to recognise how his actions hurt others.

[Tetraneutron]

@Danny Franks, what I was trying to say was, with Tahani, she can behave with the express purpose of being mean. When she insults Eleanor's appearance, the only reason is to hurt Eleanor. When she brags about her celebrity friends, the only purpose is to make the person she's talking to jealous. That's what I meant by not nice. None of the other characters do that. Eleanor is mean to people because she doesn't care about them, but she isn't deliberately trying to hurt them when she can't remember their names. Jason, back on earth (and his character's really been the least explored) would behave like a dirtbag, but it wasn't his goal to hurt others - he just didn't think. I think Tahani's character is supposed to illustrate the philosophy of consequentialism. If your actions have a positive outcome, it doesn't matter what they are. In its extreme, it means the Holocaust was a moral good because it led to a worldwide focus on human rights. If she raises money for charity and throws great parties people enjoy, it doesn't matter why she does it. I wonder if the show will go further into that because I think Tahani has great potential as a character beyond being a foil/rival for Eleanor, or the wrong side of an Eleanor/Chidi love triangle. 

[EyewatchTV211]

I have been rewatching the episodes after people have pointed out some of the interesting continuity and to catch anything I missed the first time. One thing I noticed that I'm wondering about. When Eleanor forgot Janet's name and Chidi had to keep saying it for her, Janet didn't pop in on them until Eleanor repeated the name. The only reason I can think of is because Chidi was wording it like a question - "You mean Janet?" But I thought last season that Janet popped up just any time someone said her name. Am I missing something?

[Fireball]

grr I totally missed the premiere and NBC will only play Episode2 Dance Dance Revolution. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

6 hours ago, Fireball said:

grr I totally missed the premiere and NBC will only play Episode2 Dance Dance Revolution. 

I just checked and it's on the NBC app. I think you need a cable log-in, but you presumably have cable since you say you missed the premiere, which you would have needed cable to watch.

[KaleyFirefly]

I agree that pineapple does not belong on pizza, and that would indeed be a Bad Place that served such a thing. (I do like a good froyo however)

[Kel Varnsen]

On 9/29/2017 at 0:54 PM, Tetraneutron said:

@Danny Franks, what I was trying to say was, with Tahani, she can behave with the express purpose of being mean. When she insults Eleanor's appearance, the only reason is to hurt Eleanor. When she brags about her celebrity friends, the only purpose is to make the person she's talking to jealous. That's what I meant by not nice. None of the other characters do that. Eleanor is mean to people because she doesn't care about them, but she isn't deliberately trying to hurt them when she can't remember their names. Jason, back on earth (and his character's really been the least explored) would behave like a dirtbag, but it wasn't his goal to hurt others - he just didn't think. I think Tahani's character is supposed to illustrate the philosophy of consequentialism. If your actions have a positive outcome, it doesn't matter what they are. In its extreme, it means the Holocaust was a moral good because it led to a worldwide focus on human rights. If she raises money for charity and throws great parties people enjoy, it doesn't matter why she does it. I wonder if the show will go further into that because I think Tahani has great potential as a character beyond being a foil/rival for Eleanor, or the wrong side of an Eleanor/Chidi love triangle. 

The interesting thing about Tahani is that whenever someone rich or famous does something for charity or to help people or the environment you always get commentators talking about how the person is only doing that working for the attention/publicity or how it is easy for a rich person to take time for charity because they are rich. Tahani is like the embodiment of what those commentators see, because she does generally do good works for the attention, and a big reason why she does them is because her very fortunate lifestyle made it easy to do so.  

[Tetraneutron]

26 minutes ago, KaleyFirefly said:

I agree that pineapple does not belong on pizza, and that would indeed be a Bad Place that served such a thing. (I do like a good froyo however)

Me too, but is it as good as ice cream? Isn't it the kind of thing people eat because they don't think they should have ice cream? It was a pretty good clue something was off about the Good Place. There was also a line where Tahani says something about a complicated Korean skincare regimen. Same thing. They made a point of saying there aren't any hangovers in The Good Place, but you can still get fat and wrinkly? I love all the little details like that - the things that make the Good Place good or the Bad Place bad. Like everything Trevor says or does. I hope the show does more of those. 

[JessDVD]

7 minutes ago, Tetraneutron said:

Me too, but is it as good as ice cream? Isn't it the kind of thing people eat because they don't think they should have ice cream? 

Bordering on OT, but I personally am more likely to go to our local self-serve froyo place than I am the custard or ice cream places that we also have. I'm not quite sure what it is that I like better, but I think it has to do with how it's not quite as "heavy" as ice cream, and the one we go to has great tasting flavors (we've been to others that aren't as tasty), and the $5 all you can fill (I could really go for Y'OPA right now and we were just there this past Monday....). So for me, at least, froyo places would not be a sign of the Bad Place. If all the pizza had pineapple on it, *that* would be an immediate giveaway.

[Fireball]

1 hour ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I just checked and it's on the NBC app. I think you need a cable log-in, but you presumably have cable since you say you missed the premiere, which you would have needed cable to watch.

Nope no cable. I thought The Good Place premiered on September 20th.

[AnnaRose]

I missed it too, when it aired.  I was surprised it premiered so early.  Fortunately I was able to use our cable log-in to watch.   I don't really get why that's necessary, since this is an over-the-air network broadcast.  I hope you find a way to watch, Fireball.

[possibilities]

On 9/29/2017 at 10:50 AM, Danny Franks said:

That's fair enough, but in that case they need to be more explicit about what these rules are, because I don't think it's been said anywhere that having a soulmate means you can't be friends with, or in a relationship with, someone else.

They showed us a soulmate couple who wants to swing with Eleanor and Chidi, so monogamy is not a rule there; we know that for sure.

2 hours ago, AnnaRose said:

I missed it too, when it aired.

Hulu probably has it.

[Kel Varnsen]

7 hours ago, possibilities said:

They showed us a soulmate couple who wants to swing with Eleanor and Chidi, so monogamy is not a rule there; we know that for sure.

Except as we know now those people are actually demons so i get a sense that the rules are not really set in stone since the whole point is just to torment the 4 actual people.