S01.E06: Ashes, Ashes

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Stick offers up a theory, Danny finds himself sidelined, and Alexandra learns that it's not easy being the leader.

 

[formerlyfreedom]

And wow. Should have seen that coming, but I didn't...

[MrWhyt]

what a twist!

[Bec]

The previews hinted that Danny and Matt would fight, but the surprising part is the reason for the fight wasn't that everyone's mad at Matt for hiding he knew Elektra.

Does this mean Elektra is evil now or is she trying to take down the Hand from the inside? I can't tell.

Her memory/dream/flashback confused me for a second. I thought it was happening in the present: "Oh, Matt is secretly shacking up with Elektra." But nope.

Man, karma came for Stick really quickly this time.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Bec

[thuganomics85]

Well, damn!  The medium age of the cast just got a whole lot younger!  First, Stick gets taken out by Elektra (but it was after he tricked Luke, because he was fully attending to kill Danny which, as much of a goofus he is, isn't exactly cool there....), and then she goes and offs Alexandra mid-evil overlord speech, and declares herself the new head of The Hand (and is also calling herself Elektra again.)  That leaves Madam Gao as the lone one representing the oldsters!  But, hey, knowing Gao, she'll probably keep getting buy for years to come.

Matt vs. Danny was fun, but it pretty much went the way I figured where Matt mainly had on the ropes, until Danny cheesed out and just falcon punches Luke, which naturally drains his chi and leaves an opening for Jessica to just clock him.  The more Danny relies on his Iron Fist, the less impressive he becomes.  I did think the whole "Lets hide Danny!" plan was dumb since that never, ever works, but like with most things involving Danny, I was still cracking up over how him struggling to get out of the ropes and failing, while Luke just watched him with amusement.  He really is like the younger sibling the rest put up with because they have to.

Enjoyed the Matt/Jessica stuff.  Charlie Cox and Krysten Ritter work great together.

So, I guess Elektra is going to be the big baddie for the final two episodes?  I wonder if she isn't fully back yet and she'll eventually come around or will Matt (or someone else) have to just finish her for good.

[Cthulhudrew]

I can't help but wonder, as I watch the five fingers of the Hand interact (or four, as it happens)- which one is the Middle Finger? :D

[Cthulhudrew]

I see my question was answered: apparently the middle finger is Elektra. lol!

[Oscirus]

Meh I hate that they marvel once again used the best actor in the series for a surprise death and in the most cliche way possible. I hate that we wasted our time following Alexandra since we'll never know her story. 

Other than that plenty of action and interactions to keep the story moving. I'll wearily watch the final 2 and hope for a miracle.

Edited August 19, 2017 by Oscirus

[AudienceofOne]

Tonight on the Defenders: Danny Rand chucks a tantrum and a Jessica/Matt team up turns out to be awesome. Everyone acts like they've been friends for way longer than this with all the buttheart going around and Stick finally gets stuck. 

Also, the Defenders finally learn that locking somebody up where they can be easily found 'to protect them' is not a great plan. 

This should have been longer. We needed more time for relationships to form. Weirdly, Claire has been sidelined even though they spent all this time setting her up as the common link.

Having said all that, I loved the twist ending even if it means we lost the always awesome Sigourney.

[wayne67]

So I'm a little confused is there now 2 dead fingers or 3 ? 
Is Colleen's former sensei a finger or not ?

Poor Stick, he was the last member of the Chaste and he died by a former protege.

I guess we'll never see Sigorney do anything to justify her position as the head of the Hand? Thumb of the hand ? Whatever vital role makes sense with a hand metaphor.

I liked the Danny Luke bonding, even if the bondage made it a little kinkier than the usual buddy cop bromance. 

Does Elektra have super powers ? Or is she just a super ninja ? 

[bettername2come]

"Our Jessica?" That warmed my heart a little more than it should have. "I'd face a dragon over Jessica Jones any day." I like how they keep falling into the Luke/Danny and Matt/Jessica team ups. It weirds me out how much I like Luke and Danny's interactions considering I didn't love their characters on their own shows. But something is clicking there. And crap, Jessica apologized when she realized she kept forgetting Matt was blind when she made comments ("all these brownstones look alike, don't they?"). I like that she wants to make it clear when she isn't trying to be an asshole. Smart to take down Luke Cage that way. Did Matt hear Luke fall from that far away? Nice twist with Elektra killing Sigourney Weaver. Like that it came with two episodes left instead of one. Still time to set up the final episode.

[Anela]

I thought Elektra stabbed Alexandra, because she told her minions to kill Matt. 

At some point, I'm going to have to read up on the black sky and iron fist back-stories. Or re-watch Daredevil, since I think they covered the black sky there (I can't remember much about it, since I tuned out at times, due to the Elektra story line). I like the relationships, but the more out there stuff, I tend to be like the characters on the show, who roll their eyes when mystical stuff comes up. 

[Cranberry]

I don't even dislike Danny, not really, but there was something so satisfying about watching the other Defenders beat him up. He does work well as the little brother they all roll their eyes at. I found he was the weak link in his own show; I liked all of the supporting characters and the overall plot, but Danny doesn't have the maturity required to be a real hero or to give inspirational speeches (much less speeches that strike fear into the hearts of his enemies). Having pretty much every "important" thing he says fall flat is a great choice here.

I actually like Elektra, so I'm glad to see her remembering who she is, and I'm interested to see what happens next. I really have no idea whether she's a "bad guy" for real now, if she's just out for herself (and immortality), or if she has some sort of plan that will benefit Matt in some way.

[Helena Dax]

Oh, wow, I wasn't expecting that twist at the end! 

The conversation between Luke and Danny about "their" Jessica was cute.  I also like the relationship between Matt and Jessica, it feels very natural. Also, as a lawyer and a PI, I guess both of them are used to question people, look for information etc, so it makes sense to pair them up together. 

[AimingforYoko]

Well, hopefully this works out better than

Spoiler

when they killed Cottonmouth on Luke Cage.

[Ottis]

It's cute watching the team interact, but this is a dull show so far. The bad guys are abstractly bad. Any threat to loved ones is off screen. I don't feel any sense of danger. We never saw why Sigourney Weaver was bad ass. I so miss the Kingpin. 

[VCRTracking]

Whoa! Did not see that coming! As disappointing as I am in not seeing Sigourney Weaver anymore it I was expecting Matthew to get through to Elektra who would remember who she is and turn against the bad guys in the finale. Now Matt will definitely have to put her down. Douglas Petrie wrote the Faith episodes of Buffy so I was feeling Alexandra seeing Elektra as a daughter the way the Mayor did with Faith and them having a genuine parent-child relationship. This time it didn't turn out the same way!

I'm going to miss Stick.

Loved the interaction between Luke and Danny as well as Jessica and Matt.

Edited August 20, 2017 by VCRTracking

[clack]

I'm not getting the whole Black Sky thing. Why is being good at hand-to-hand combat of such importance to the Hand  that they are willing to risk using up the last of their immortality juice in order to resurrect the Destined One?

What superpowers does the Black Sky possess? Why is being good in a punch-up more important than wielding vast political and economic power?

[tennisgurl]

Wow, shit just went DOWN! Alexandra is dead! By Elektras hand (heh) and now she's the new middle finger of the Hand! Stick tries to kill Danny, and instead gets killed by his former protégé! Elektra knows who she is, and is now the new Big Bad! Maybe...

You know, I've complained about how the other MCU Netflix shows go on for too long at 13 episodes, but I think this show could have benefitted for a few more episodes. Not because the pace is awful here or anything, but because I want to see the characters interact as a team more, and to see more of their arcs and supporting casts. We have been waiting for this for YEARS, we deserve it! I hope that next season has the full 13 episodes, and a new Big Bad. The Hand works alright here (because its something that can connect everyone) but they have never been super interesting to me. Ninjas ninjas everywhere!

I loved seeing Danny and Luke and Matt and Jessica bond. The actors all work great together, especially Luke and Danny. Luke lets Danny be less annoying and more endearing, and Danny helps Luke be less serious and stoic. The scene with them talking about their weird experiences was super adorable. And I didn't know I needed Jessica and Matt as snarky pals, but I totally did. I loved Jessica apologizing to Matt for getting he's blind, and how she talked about him to the girl. Awwww Jess does care! "That's the nicest thing you've ever said to me." See, I need more!

Damn it Stick! In trying to destroy Danny to hurt the Hand, you basically got them everything they wanted! That really was a dick move, but I kind of suspected he would try something like that. He is a pragmatist first and foremost, even if it REALLY wants the best plan.

On ‎8‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 10:47 AM, bettername2come said:

"Our Jessica?" That warmed my heart a little more than it should have.

Me too! That was adorable. Look at Jessica making friends!

[weightyghost]

I never cared for Jessica Jones (the series and really the character) but I had to cackle at her rolling her eyes as Matt stumbled towards the piano and bumped into it. 

[2727]

I dislike how subservient Madame Gao has become. She used to be frightening and sinister. (Also, the actress is so tiny I'm surprised every time I see her standing next to someone.)

I guess we were supposed to be in awe at how slowly and lavishly Alexandra ate her meals. We certainly didn't see anything else that explained her iron rule over The Hand. She and Dorothy Gale, just wanting to go home.

[tennisgurl]

You know, it strikes me that Matts biggest flaw might not be that he's an adrenalin junkie who cant stop beating up criminals, its that he just wont stop lying (including lies of omission) to his friends and allies! Seriously Matt! I love you, and I know you want to keep the different parts of your weird life out of each other, but come on dude! A big reason his relationships with Foggy and Karen are a mess is because he kept keeping secrets from them and lying about stuff, and now he's doing the SAME DAMN THING with his new friends, even when he has information that could be pertinent to their imminent survival! This is just getting ridiculous.

[Hybiscus]

Alexandra listens to the gramaphone?  And here I thought I was an old fogie listening to CDs instead of learning to stream music.  

[Bec]

On 8/19/2017 at 10:09 AM, Anela said:

I thought Elektra stabbed Alexandra, because she told her minions to kill Matt. 

That's a good observation. Could be at least part of the reason.

[AudienceofOne]

35 minutes ago, Bec said:

That's a good observation. Could be at least part of the reason.

It was the reason. But then she followed it up with "I'm in charge now so let's just keep doing what we're doing", which rendered the act nonsensical.

[SnoGirl]

Im like 99% sure the song Matt plays on the piano is his own DareDevil theme music. Did anyone else hear it/catch it?

[tennisgurl]

14 minutes ago, SnoGirl said:

Im like 99% sure the song Matt plays on the piano is his own DareDevil theme music. Did anyone else hear it/catch it?

I'm pretty sure your correct!

[SnoGirl]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

I'm pretty sure your correct!

I might have replayed the scene a couple times when I realized it. Out of all the Marvel themes, DareDevils is one of my favorites.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, SnoGirl said:

Im like 99% sure the song Matt plays on the piano is his own DareDevil theme music. Did anyone else hear it/catch it?

Yes he was! I loved it!!!

4 minutes ago, SnoGirl said:

I might have replayed the scene a couple times when I realized it. Out of all the Marvel themes, DareDevils is one of my favorites.

Mine too! I even have it as a ringtone!!!!

What?

[Taryn74]

36 minutes ago, SnoGirl said:

Out of all the Marvel themes, DareDevils is one of my favorites.

Mine too.  I 'skip intro' on all the shows except DD.  It's so hauntingly beautiful.

[SnoGirl]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Yes he was! I loved it!!!

Mine too! I even have it as a ringtone!!!!

What?

I'm jealous you have it as a ringtone!  I didn't even think to try and download it for my phone.

 

Topic: I've watched the series twice now...can someone explain how Alexandra could be bested by sword?  Is it because they chopped off her head?  If she really is hundreds of years old, how did she avoid death all these years.  Is she a comic book character?  Is there back-story somewhere else?

[GHScorpiosRule]

22 minutes ago, SnoGirl said:

 I've watched the series twice now...can someone explain how Alexandra could be bested by sword?  Is it because they chopped off her head?  If she really is hundreds of years old, how did she avoid death all these years.  Is she a comic book character?  Is there back-story somewhere else?

She told Elektra that she'd used up the last of the...goop/blood drained from the people in last season's Daredevil, to resurrect her, The Black Sky, and that in order for her to live, Elektra would have to find more.  Alexandra herself, was dying, and I don't think that goo had healing properties, other than reviving an otherwise healthy person???

[david gideon]

Quote

Im like 99% sure the song Matt plays on the piano is his own DareDevil theme music. Did anyone else hear it/catch it?

What's more, when he hit that sour note and mentioned it was a d-sharp, it actually WAS a d-sharp. That usually doesn't happen in movies/tv.

[SnoGirl]

14 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

She told Elektra that she'd used up the last of the...goop/blood drained from the people in last season's Daredevil, to resurrect her, The Black Sky, and that in order for her to live, Elektra would have to find more.  Alexandra herself, was dying, and I don't think that goo had healing properties, other than reviving an otherwise healthy person???

Thanks...I felt like there was a lot of handwaving instead of actual logical worldbuilding happening that I tuned out.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 8/19/2017 at 8:14 AM, wayne67 said:

So I'm a little confused is there now 2 dead fingers or 3 ? 
Is Colleen's former sensei a finger or not ?

 

The five fingers of the Hand are Alexandra (killed by Elektra), Sowande (aka White Hat, African Warlord guy killed by Stick), Bakuto (Colleen's former sensei, still alive) Madame Gao (who we saw before in Daredevil and Iron Fist) and Murakami  (Japanese bear-killer/black sky-hater who insists on speaking Japanese.

17 hours ago, SnoGirl said:

Topic: I've watched the series twice now...can someone explain how Alexandra could be bested by sword?  Is it because they chopped off her head?  If she really is hundreds of years old, how did she avoid death all these years.  Is she a comic book character?  Is there back-story somewhere else?

From what we have been shown/told, it seems safe to assume that each of the five fingers has been killed in the past but they had enough of the substance that they didn't have to worry about being brought back. 

From what I have read on the Interwebs, Alexandra was created just for the series.

[Miles]

Any time Dany opened his mouth I could only think "Don't be such a bitch, bitch." Seriously. He needs the hound to tell him to stop winging already. This is a war, not his personal quest for glory. If the hand needs him for their plan, he should be as far away from the hand as humanlyy possible.

Did we really just trade the awesome Alexandra, played marvelously by Sigourney Weaver, for Analog Taccos? Urgh... I hope she gets brought back.

Also writers, the epic speech that gets interrupted by the person giving the speech getting stabbed in the back is a little played out. Especially when you actually want the villan to succeed because the backstabber is just so lame. Especially especially when you already did a variation of this way better with Danny Rand trying his epic speech in front of the hands boardroom earlier this season.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Miles

[Jodithgrace]

So Dawn Danny is the key. I guess there's a lock somewhere that has to be punched really hard. I couldn't get through Iron Fist, because, frankly, I am bored to death by kung foo, and there's way too much of it in this show ,too. But at least the characters are interesting enough and the dialog funny enough that the endless scenes of leaping, chopping and waving swords around don't drive me insane. 

Two distractions: Did anybody notice the apple core stuck in the smashed up wall behind Danny and Luke? it was a bright green Granny Smith apple with the sticker still on it. Why was it there? Did some stage hand stick it in there and the director failed to notice it? It didn't have a purpose and seemed like such an odd detail to include.

The other one was poor Sigourney Weaver's horrid costumes. My goodness..each one was worse than the last..all of those ill fitting gold or silver lame monstrosities and gigantic coats and jackets. I thought she looked wonderful..from the neck up, but those outfits did her no favors. 

I'm glad the hand is out of magic juice..they can;t get knocked off fast enough for me. Alexandra was then only interesting one, and now her finger has been nailed. 

[blueray]

Quote

The other one was poor Sigourney Weaver's horrid costumes. My goodness..each one was worse than the last..all of those ill fitting gold or silver lame monstrosities and gigantic coats and jackets. I thought she looked wonderful..from the neck up, but those outfits did her no favors. 

At the beginning of the season I was finding myself distracted because of her outfits. Serious wtf is she wearing in most episodes.

 

I love the interactions between Jessica and Matt. The actors play off of each other very well. I love that she actually apologized for forgetting he's blind. Which to be fair is easy to do since she has seen him fight. Speaking of fighting, I love that Matt was basically kicking Danny's ass. Then as soon as he used his "fist" he was very easy for Jessica to take down. I was a bit surprised about Stick, I figured he'd run before he would try to do something like that. And as for Electra, I didn't see that one coming either. I can't figure where she stands. I feel like she'll survive the series and be either a vilian or recurring character in Daredevil.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I think I may be in the minority, but I was all "Good Riddance!" when Stick finally got his.

[Danny Franks]

Am I going to miss Stick? No I am not. I was beyond tired of him chuntering on about the "war that's coming" and how they need to be ready, and how they're all so dumb and blind (heh) for not focusing on it. Yet he never once explained one fucking thing about this war, why it's so important, what the stakes are or who the enemy is. So... thanks for finally shutting him up, Elektra.

And thanks too, for shutting up Alexandra, because she wasn't really doing much other than giving Sigourney Weaver some rather meandering screen time. I was all for Murakami taking her out, but I'm fine with Elektra beating him to the punch.

Interesting that remembering who she is, and what Matt means to her is what prompted her to take over the Hand. Clearly, she's not about to drop her Sais and rush into Matt's arms, to live happily ever after.

Danny is something of a mix between macguffin, damsel in distress and irritant in this show. All roles that fit him better than protagonist does. But I can't help feel like an actual macguffin object that opens the door to the mystical city would be better narratively, and give more screen time to other characters.

But it was cool to see that, for all Danny's years of training and super kung fu skills, he was being beaten by a blind lawyer who spent most of his life teaching himself to fight. Daredevil is effortlessly coming across as the coolest of the group, so far.

I enjoyed Matt and Jessica bonding. A potential friendship that seems totally platonic, and built on trademark snark and one-upmanship. But with some surprising sincerity and empathy too. Their scenes together have been the highlight of this show, so far.

 

On 21/08/2017 at 10:19 PM, SnoGirl said:

Im like 99% sure the song Matt plays on the piano is his own DareDevil theme music. Did anyone else hear it/catch it?

I caught that too. Very nice touch. And the Daredevil theme music was definitely the best of Marvel shows, so far.

[AudienceofOne]

On 24/08/2017 at 6:42 AM, GHScorpiosRule said:

I think I may be in the minority, but I was all "Good Riddance!" when Stick finally got his.

 

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

Am I going to miss Stick? No I am not. I was beyond tired of him chuntering on about the "war that's coming" and how they need to be ready, and how they're all so dumb and blind (heh) for not focusing on it. Yet he never once explained one fucking thing about this war, why it's so important, what the stakes are or who the enemy is. So... thanks for finally shutting him up, Elektra.

Preach. As with Elektra, I think you'll find there's a quiet minority out there who share your opinion. I think we're supposed to be impressed by what a badass Stick was but he's just one of those characters who show up to speak tangentially and profoundly about QUESTS and DUTY. I was particularly amused by Danny not knowing he had an army. Instead of hanging around Devil's Kitchen haranguing Matt, maybe Stick could have found the Fist and told him a few things? No? No. And he's dead anyways. 

[Clawdette]

The power of suggestion!  I now am sporting the Daredevil theme as my ringtone, too.  I love it!

[jeansheridan]

On 8/19/2017 at 0:03 AM, Cthulhudrew said:

can't help but wonder, as I watch the five fingers of the Hand interact (or four, as it happens)- which one is the Middle Finger? :D

Madam Gao of course. She rules. If she hadn't blinded all her minions I would adore her.

On 8/19/2017 at 11:47 AM, bettername2come said:

me out how much I like Luke and Danny's interactions considering I didn't love their characters on their own shows.

I am not a comic reader but apparently Luke Cage and Iron Fist were a team in the early 1970s. It was an attempt by Marvel to hop on the Blacksploitation train.  So chemistry is good. Plus both are basically sweet guys.  Sweeter than Jessica and Matt at any rate.

On 8/24/2017 at 6:40 PM, AudienceofOne said:

As with Elektra, I think you'll find there's a quiet minority out there who share your opinion.

I love Elektra and I thought she was the best thing in the second season of Dare Devil. She brought out the fun in Matt. Wasn't there a great kitchen scene? I seem to recall some good chemistry. 

Even in their brief dream sequence he was so smiley.  He can be himself with her. Same with Jessica & Luke. And Danny is the annoying kid brother he never wanted. Matt finally has a family again.

[LilJen]

On ‎8‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 8:30 AM, clack said:

I'm not getting the whole Black Sky thing. Why is being good at hand-to-hand combat of such importance to the Hand  that they are willing to risk using up the last of their immortality juice in order to resurrect the Destined One?

What superpowers does the Black Sky possess? Why is being good in a punch-up more important than wielding vast political and economic power?

These are excellent questions. Maybe some of them are answered if you read the comics. I don't know.

It can't be said often enough: Danny is annoying and full of himself. Which will probably get worse now that he knows he's the KEY.

[mrspidey]

On 21.8.2017 at 11:19 PM, SnoGirl said:

Im like 99% sure the song Matt plays on the piano is his own DareDevil theme music. Did anyone else hear it/catch it?

Actually, it sounded more like the Defenders theme to me. They are very similar, though. 

[Lady Calypso]

Heh. That opening scene made me chuckle because without his stupid glowing fist, Danny's not really that great. They keep saying that he was trained by monks, but they didn't seem to train him well enough without his glowing fist. Also, I did find his reason for turning on them rather ridiculous. I thought Stick, for once, was making perfect sense. They all knew that they needed Danny alive, so the best way to halt the war from happening would be to keep Danny away from it. I'm not sure why he suddenly went "Well, I need to be in this fight" essentially which would give them more chances to capture him. Of course, this plan easily backfired anyway, but I think it was just supposed to be a temporary plan until they could figure their next move out. Plus, the fight scene was pretty cool between Danny and Matt. 

The other tension between the group worked better. It's nice to see more people getting pissed by Matt being secretive. You'd think he would have learned by now. Despite my annoyance for Matt, I do consider Charlie Cox the best actor of the four. He is very expressive, both in bigger and smaller expressions. Krysten Ritter follows close behind, but both characters are just so dark. Which is why I love that this show has paired them together and Luke/Danny, the "lighter" characters, together. Both have interesting dynamics. 

As much as I like Sigourney Weaver, I think there are too many scenes with the Hand and not enough on our main group. I get the purpose, but in eight episodes, there isn't enough time to waste on the villains and them bemoaning about working together for one common goal. A couple of scenes are fine; I just feel like they're using them TOO much.

Of course, now Elektra's killed Alexandra so what now? Is Elektra really going to be the new leader? And what is her plan with Matt?

Seriously, Danny needs to stop whining, and I can say with certainty that a weak spot in this series is that it's focused around Danny. He's solid around Luke, but he also whines too much. Listen Danny the Dragon Puncher, if you hadn't been so insistent in going out to be this lone Fist, you wouldn't have been knocked out in two minutes and tied up.

Stick's death didn't really impact me. He's been a pain for two seasons now, so it was his time to go. As pragmatic as he could be, he was too unpredictable to keep around. I liked him getting shit done, but his death wasn't particularly a big sacrifice for me. 

[CTrent29]

After watching this episode, I finally realized that Stick was the real "dundering dumbass".  What a stupid thing to do.  Didn't he realize that keep Danny with the other Defenders was the smarter move, instead of manipulating them to sideline Danny, so that he could kill the latter?  What an idiot.