S07.E04: The Spoils of War

[dr pepper]

3 hours ago, screamin said:

Kind of annoyingly ridiculous that all that heavy gold in slow wagons made it all the way to King's Landing before the swift-footed Dothraki and the freakin' flying dragon managed to catch up to the Lannister army...

The investors' money gets priority over the people's food supply. Sounds familiar.

[Constantinople]

9 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

I mean Davos, who was illiterate until Shireen taught him to read, grammar checked the KITN tonight.  Its odd.

I thought that was an amusing call back to Stannis correcting Davos for saying less fingers instead of fewer fingers.  Just a chance for a rare moment of levity for the fans

[Francie]

17 minutes ago, doram said:

Yeah, the whole "Jaime is horrified because of dragons" is kind of lol-worthy.

Of course, anyone will be horrified when they're losing a battle. 

Yeah, that didn't make any sense to me. Wanting your favorites not to die is one thing, but I thought we all agreed that Cersei needs to lose?

Jaime, as a young kingsguard, watched Dany's father, Aerys, roast men alive in his throne room. This included Ned's father and brother. I wouldn't be surprised if we learn to find that seeing these men, his own soldiers, being burned alive triggered those memories. 

2 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I thought that was an amusing call back to Stannis correcting Davos for saying less fingers instead of fewer fingers.  Just a chance for a rare moment of levity for the fans

Davos, unlike Jaime, is a quick learner. 

[dr pepper]

3 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

With that being said the scenes between Jon and Dany are crossing dangerously close to the ick territory. Dany's attraction to him is just ... no, don't go there. He's her nephew. I hope the show makes them work together and respect each other because they do have many similar views towards governing. But don't have them get Biblical Targaryanish. Please, just no.

FIFY

[Constantinople]

9 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Sorry, but this is not how wars work. There are no time outs so that the enemy can collect their spoils and safely store them before returning to the battlefield. And if you enemy has an air force and you don't, well, it sucks to be you. You should have bent the knee to avoid your fate.

I agree but wish to point out that you're responding to one of a series of posts

In a nutshell I think using dragonfire against "soldiers" (civilians who are forced to go to war) is morally the same as using dragonfire against servants in the Red Keep.  Others disagree even though the soldiers are as defenseless against dragonfire as servants in the Red Keep

[Minneapple]

Maisie's tweet at Sophie tonight:

Cute! I love their friendship.

[Katsullivan]

8 minutes ago, doram said:

The Lannisters knew that Daenerys Targaryen had 3 full-grown dragons and they still decided to take her on.

? Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus. ?

 

14 minutes ago, Francie said:

Jaime, as a young kingsguard, watched Dany's father, Aerys, roast men alive in his throne room. This included Ned's father and brother. I wouldn't be surprised if we learn to find that seeing these men, his own soldiers, being burned alive triggered those memories. 

That would explain why the  moment Jaime arrived on King's Landing and found out that Cersei had done what he killed Aerys to prevent he turned against her once and for all.

Oh wait.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Katsullivan

[Constantinople]

Any idea as to why Littlefinger gave Bran the Valaryian steel dagger other than so Bran will recognize it in some upcoming vision?

[Shimmergloom]

3 hours ago, benteen said:

I would argue the fact that Sansa and Arya would not close and had the relationship they had is the reason it was so fascinating to finally see them reunite.  It worked for me.

Yes, I think we see all these reunions so far through Sansa's eyes first, because when the Show/Books start she's the least Stark, but by the end, she's embraced being a Stark and realizes what she's missed.

[Francie]

7 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

? Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus. ?

 

That would explain why the  moment Jaime arrived on King's Landing and found out that Cersei had done what he killed Aerys to prevent he turned against her once and for all.

Oh wait.

To reiterate, Jaime witnessing men being burned alive may have triggered memories of witnessing other men burned alive. 

As to why he didn't turn on Cersei when learning of the sept, just wait. Answers will come to those who are patient. 

[Katsullivan]

2 minutes ago, Francie said:

As to why he didn't turn on Cersei when learning of the sept, just wait. Answers will come to those who are patient. 

We got the answer last episode when she was sucking his dick. 

[Remmy20]

11 minutes ago, Francie said:

To reiterate, Jaime witnessing men being burned alive may have triggered memories of witnessing other men burned alive. 

As to why he didn't turn on Cersei when learning of the sept, just wait. Answers will come to those who are patient. 

I wouldn't be surprised if the answer is pretty simple. They just wrote his character into a corner where the only other option was to essentially write him out of the story without some (contrived) subplot to bring him back into it later. They have just tried to make the best out of the situation and I have to say it hasn't worked.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Remmy20

[dr pepper]

3 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

And second by the way, other than the glorious outing of Olenna's part in Joffrey's death, why even kill Olenna?  Balon Greyjoy wasn't killed after his rebellion.  Olenna was an old lady with a conquered army.  They would have stripped her of all her money and food anyway.  I didn't care for Jaime's part in administering the poison, either.

Personally, i think the previous episode should ended differently. Olenna downs her glass. Jaime leaves the room. Olenna pulls a vial out of her bodice. She murmurs "i too, have learned something about dornish poisons". Then she downs the vial, shudders, and staggers to her feet. She looks quickly around. She's still alone. She goes to a lamp holder on the wall and twists it, revealing a secret passage. She goes through and it closes behind her. Episode 10 ends with Cersei's visit to Highgarden, where she insists on taking over Olenna's suite. That night, she suddenly wakes up to find Olenna standing at the foot of the bed. Olenna says "i understand you like wildfire, <sigh> i'm going to miss this bed". Liquid flame begins pouring down. Credits.

[spottedreptile]

43 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I thought that was an amusing call back to Stannis correcting Davos for saying less fingers instead of fewer fingers.  Just a chance for a rare moment of levity for the fans

As a grammar nazi myself, I really appreciated that little moment.

[Shimmergloom]

3 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I was pleased by Sansa and Arya's reunion, but Arya's subdued response kind of ruined it. 

I don't.  I think Arya going in for the 2nd hug was not subdued at all.  It may have even been OOC for Arya to do that, but it was something that showed that she was happy to see Sansa and happy to be home.

 

3 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

And I hope we see Meera once again.  She deserves better than Bran gave her.

 

I agree.  I'm so mad about that.  And I am upset that we won't see Meera interact with the Stark sisters or Jon.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Shimmergloom

[spottedreptile]

1 minute ago, Shimmergloom said:

It may have even been OOC for Arya to do that, but it was something that showed that she was happy to see Sansa and happy to be home.

I think girly squeals and hugs would have been out of character for both, considering what they have been through and how they have been changed by it. I thought the show made this point quite well. So many of their family and friends have died, some horribly, so I thought that the subdued reunion was more appropriate.

[Colorful Mess]

49 minutes ago, Anisky said:

Good intentions (/a good heart) aren't the only thing, to be sure, but are you trying to say that they aren't an important thing? What if Cersei did have a good heart and good intentions-- you don't think that would make a huge freaking difference?

I believe it does NOT make a difference when the context is a quest for power or dominance. The imperial Spanish thought they had good hearts and intentions by "saving" the Inka and Maya from sinful polytheistic religions. The Church debated whether the new people they encountered were really people; these kind hearted priests even wondered whether or not the natives had souls to be saved. Thankfully some well intentioned monk convinced the church that they did! How charitable. That benevolent attitude really saved the natives a lot of heartache and slaughter. /sarcasm

Likewise, Dany thought she was saving the lamb people from being raped by the Dothraki, and we know how well that turned out.

I'm still struggling to see the difference between Dany, Cersei, and Stannis, especially after this episode. Yeah she burned soldiers and not religious wackos or wilding leaders who refuse to kneel, but at the end of the day, her enemies died screaming (to quote the Dany of Season 1). I know we all want to see the Lannisters get theirs, but its so much more entertaining to me that Dany be morally ambiguous, so I prefer to see her that way. Also I admit its a fault of mine to see similarities in political leaders rather than their finely tuned differences (I despise viewing history through presidential biographies and all that nonsense).

[Francie]

Preview of Episode 5:  Melisandre looking into flames. 

"Melisandre, what do you see?"

"It's a message from the seventh hell. Robert of House Baratheon. He said, 'Told you so. And send down more women and wine.'"

[spottedreptile]

2 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

The imperial Spanish thought they had good hearts and intentions by "saving" the Inka and Maya from sinful polytheistic religions.

Nobody ever thinks of themselves as the bad guys. 

[dr pepper]

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I am rooting for the Tarlys to get burnt to a crisp for betraying Olenna.

That would make Sam's girlfriend's baby, the next Lord Tarly.

[Shimmergloom]

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

That is not what Jon said. You need to rewatch that scene or maybe you interpret it the way that you want to.

Yeah.  Jon said don't use your dragons to burn down castles and cities if you want to be seen as different to the people than what they have now.  He didn't say, never use them and don't use them in battle.

Sure many Lannister soldiers are conscript,  but most of the time enemy soldiers in war are conscripts.  Those conscripts are still trying to kill you.

[Anisky]

49 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

I believe it does NOT make a difference when the context is a quest for power or dominance. The imperial Spanish thought they had good hearts and intentions by "saving" the Inka and Maya from sinful polytheistic religions. The Church debated whether the new people they encountered were really people; these kind hearted priests even wondered whether or not the natives had souls to be saved. Thankfully some well intentioned monk convinced the church that they did! How charitable. That benevolent attitude really saved the natives a lot of heartache and slaughter. /sarcasm

Likewise, Dany thought she was saving the lamb people from being raped by the Dothraki, and we know how well that turned out.

I'm still struggling to see the difference between Dany, Cersei, and Stannis, especially after this episode. Yeah she burned soldiers and not religious wackos or wilding leaders who refuse to kneel, but at the end of the day, her enemies died screaming (to quote the Dany of Season 1). I know we all want to see the Lannisters get theirs, but its so much more entertaining to me that Dany be morally ambiguous, so I prefer to see her that way. Also I admit its a fault of mine to see similarities in political leaders rather than their finely tuned differences (I despise viewing history through presidential biographies and all that nonsense).

Are you familiar with the concept of something being "necessary but not sufficient"? That's the technical phrase for what I was trying to get at when saying that having good intentions is important, but is not the only thing that matters. Giving other examples of times when people had good intentions but were not good rulers doesn't disprove the assertion that good intentions are necessary but not sufficient for a good ruler, because all it does is prove that good intentions aren't sufficient, which was already part of the premise in the first place. The main way to disprove the assertion would be to give an example of a ruler who did not have good intentions, but was nevertheless a very good ruler. That is what would prove that good intentions aren't something that matter, that they aren't something that a good ruler needs to possess. 

 

Plus:

46 minutes ago, spottedreptile said:

Nobody ever thinks of themselves as the bad guys. 

This! 

You're holding up as an example the imperial Spanish, who as you say, "thought they had good hearts and intentions". But that would be equivalent to Daenerys saying that she herself has a good heart, which is not what happened. Jon Snow, a man with whom she is at odds (and the man who she wants to have power/dominance over) says that she has a good heart. So for your example to be equivalent, it would need to be the leaders of the Incans and Mayans who believed the imperial Spanish had good hearts. 

Edited August 7, 2017 by Anisky

[gatopretoNYC]

5 hours ago, anamika said:

Yeah, [Sansa] was definitely not pleased that Brienne was swearing her services to Arya as well.

I could not disagree more.

[calvinshobbes]

I predict Missandei will turn out to be the daughter of Ser Davos when he was a smuggler in the Free Cities. He seemed overly interested in her back story and seemed to recognize her as soon as he stepped off the boat. 

[dr pepper]

4 hours ago, spottedreptile said:

I loved the battle for its drama and emotion; but it was mixed tactically. According to Hollywood, cavalry charges can always break up infantry squares, because Hollywood horses are always willing to impale themselves on lances and crash through barriers of sharp points. In real life this doesn't happen. Horses will break each side and shy away from the squares and no horse is stupid enough to commit suicide on a row of spears. The idea of Dany using Drogon (artillery) to break up the square was good, and once a square is broken you can then use your cavalry to smash the infantry sideways. But I suppose it always looks good to have a cavalry charge a la Gandalf.

The drothraki have always struck me as the kind to disdain sissy tactics like flanking and envelopment. They see a shield wall, they want to crash into it head on. And i think the way they train their horses is meant to minimize the instinct to avoid sharp objects. I suspect they would do poorly against a phalanx. And even against the fairly thin line presented by the Lannister army, i think they'd have sustain substantial casualties. But once that line was breached, even if there had been no fire, the battle would be theirs.

Edited August 7, 2017 by dr pepper

[mac123x]

3 hours ago, Francie said:

Regularly cited by whom and when?  I'm just asking for one example. 

For instance, I can tell you that Arya admires one of Aegon's sister wives.  Absolutely worships her, as we saw from her conversation with Tywin about her. But she admires her because she was a great warrior.

That's what I'm asking. Not "everyone knows" or "I'm sure it's said somewhere or other." 

Quoting extensively from The World of Ice and Fire, Aegon I chapter.

 

"King Aegon... might have conquere the Seven Kingdoms by the age of twenty-seven, but now he faced the formidable challenge of ruling his newly forged realm.  The seven warring kingdoms had rarely been at peace within their own borders, let alone without them, and uniting them under one rule required a truly remarkable man....

 

As [King's Landing] and its prosperity grew, so did that of the realm.  This was in part due to the Conqueror's efforts to win the respect of his vassals and that of the smalfolk.  In this, he was ofen aided by Queen Rhaenys....  The queen also did much to bring the realm together through the marriages she arranged between far-flung houses...."

[dr pepper]

3 hours ago, Francie said:

And I am challenging the notion that Aegon was considered a "great king." So, as you can see, I am holding each to the the same standard. 

In fact, I draw many paraellels. Dany is no better than Aegon. A foreign invader coming in to conquer a land. 

I have to agree with Louis Farrakhan on this subject. When we refer to a historical figure as "great", we usually mean they were a mass murderer.

[dr pepper]

3 hours ago, Lemuria said:

I just realized that Braavos is Switzerland.  They'll deal with both sides in a conflict.  And they maintain an army that other cities or kingdoms can hire.  (Yes, I know:  Switzerland doesn't do that part anymore but it once did. ) 

I think Braavos is more like Medici Florence.

[anamika]

2 hours ago, gatopretoNYC said:

I could not disagree more.

When it comes to Sansa, it's really hard to tell what's going on with the character. Poor acting does not help.

https://heavy.com/entertainment/2017/08/game-of-thrones-s07e04-sansas-expression-watching-brienne-arya-explained/

This was the same problem last season as well. Sophie Turner needs to do a better job at conveying whatever it is she is supposed to feel. Or we will have 10 pages of discussion as to whether she is annoyed, jealous, proud, delighted, amazed, shocked, worried or angry - those are all the emotions people here think she was expressing when seeing Arya interact with Brienne. 

According to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X17pjukf8rA

Sansa is worried because Arya nearly beat a warrior like Brienne and is good at killing people. Why she should be worried about that, I have no idea. Does she think Arya is going to come after her?

[mojoween]

5 hours ago, Tesla said:

I thinkmy favorite line of the episode was Bran to Littlefinger, quoting him back to himself with the "Chaos is a ladder" and seeing the comprehension dawn on LF.  I just wish the line didn't have to be delivered by the talking block of wood that Bran has become; it lessens the impact a bit. 

Especially since I rewound that three times before I gave up and still didn't know what he said until I came here.  

[BooBear]

7 hours ago, Minneapple said:

! The dragons can be hurt! She can't just come and dracarys everything and bam, claim the throne.

I enjoyed this episode for hopefully, Dany now knows they have a weapon -- which frankly is a win for her as she can figure out how to avoid it.  Cerci has just shot her load. She has nothing left literally. Her army is  gone.  Most of the gold is to pay back the bank. What I most love about Cerci is that she always thinks she is the smartest but she is always wrong. Imagine if Jamie had been immolated? 

I both enjoyed the battle and was taken aback by it. In general it is scary to watch people completely immolated when basically they are just normal people forced to fight.  But they all should have just run away. Dragon vrs. Lannsister? I will my chances.  I enjoyed that Dani finally did what she wanted to do -- but also listened to John and found a better alternative. I wonder how she knew where the army was?  I thought the shot where the Dothraki all hop up on their horses was breathtaking.  Also the first time Dani just destroys the front line with one puff from Dragon.  As for the Spear? Pretty sure Drogon can take it.  Dani might have destroyed all the food but now Cerci has none.  I am sure Dani can get some food from Essos. 

I don't see a lot of chemistry between Jon and Dani. It feels forced.  But I did enjoy the look on her face when she saw the undead on the walls. I think she knows... and does believe Jon but like everyone, was just hoping it would go away.  I also think Dani cannot refuse someone asking her for help. That is a big weakness for her. 

Davos was so funny. Enjoy him a lot.  I enjoyed that everyone seemed to highlight that Dani was sort of a female Jon snow. Her people are with her because she saved them (will except for the Dothraki) I think it really needed to be said that Dani wasn't all her "titles".  I think Jon doesn't respect titles but does respect earned respect.

I was a little disappointed with Arya's reunion. The guards not believing her was strained and not necessary. I would have preferred to see that time used on the reunion. But Arya and Brianne were made of win. I would love it if Arya could teach Brianne how to be a faceless man and her "who taught you to do that" and Arya's "no one" was prefect.   I took Sansa's face as being surprised but also being proud - remember when they parted Arya was just learning. 

Poor Meera? I hope that isn't the last of her.  

[TarotQueen]

7 hours ago, Francie said:

Littlefinger giving Bran the dagger was so curious.  I think it does make it an open question as to who sent the assassin. Jaime and Tyrion both concluded that it was Joffrey, as all other candidates seemed to be ruled out.  But the rationale was always a bit weak -- Joffrey sending him because of something his father said, offhandedly. And there was never 100% confirmation it was him, and I think George is writing this in a manner where we have no dangling mysteries on matters such as that. 

 And then there was Littlefinger's odd comment about someone being rich who sent it. 

 

My take on this is that LF is just recycling an old trick here, trying to instigate a new Stark/Lannister confrontation because that's in his interests.  It worked with Cat and Tyrion the first time right?  The 'someone very rich' was just so heavy handed on his part that I thought he had to intend to single someone out, and this is what I got from it.

Apologies if someone else has gotten there first in the five pages between the quoted post above and where this one will end up ...

[SeanC]

5 hours ago, Oscirus said:

You seem to forget one thing that until Tyrion started using priestesses, Dany wasn't a particularly popular queen.  The freed slaves were literally supporting their former masters. So no ruling by fear didn't work. However, I will concede that yes, fear ultimately drove the masters away but that's not ruling, that's just conquering.  

Dany was very popular among the freedmen.  She lost some support over trying to be a just ruler by punishing Mossador. 

[IntrovertGal]

Fantastic episode, from start to finish. Definitely the best one of the season so far IMO. I wonder how much the battle at the end cost but it sure was worth every penny. So glad that Dany & co. finally got a win and Cersei lost a battle. Although maybe burning all the food was not the smartest move on Dany's part. And how convenient that the gold had already reached King's Landing.

I loved Jaime in the books (but hate what D&D have done to his character on the show) so for his sake I hope that he is not dead. He still has important stuff to do (namely kill Cersei).

I usually like Bronn but could have killed him when he hurt Drogon. Not cool, Bronn!

I didn't see much chemistry between Jon and Dany in last week's episode but in this episode they had it in spades. That cave scene was so full of tension between them. I loved Davos teasing Jon about his attraction to Dany afterwards. Also loved Davos correcting Jon's grammar, nice callback to Stannis. Davos gets all the best lines lately.

[Happy Harpy]

Fooking epic!

But I loved the character moments even more.

My heart broke for Meera. I wish she was gone to the Inn at the Crossroads to feast forever with Hotpie and celebrate their Team Stark Survivor status. Gah, Bran, that was Beyond the Wall cold. If Littlecreeper didn't shit himself with your timely quote, which was pretty much priceless, you could crawl back in the cave where you died for all I cared. LF might have had something in mind with the dagger beyond ingratiating himself with his faux loyalty to Catelyn (use it to incriminate someone else, but who?). Anyway, whatever it was I have a feeling he's now going to stay clear of Bran, LOL.

Brienne and Arya bonding over fighting, I wanted that back in season 4 and I've wanted that ever since and now I have it YAAAAAS. They smiled and enjoyed themselves and found a kindred spirit and it was AWESOME. I loved Sassy Arya with the guards and Brienne. I loved emotional Arya. I also loved Brienne making an effort to be nice to Pod, an her smile when she saw the Starks kids. My team is getting some wins and some respite, and I enjoy it while it lasts.

I really liked the subtleties of the Arya/Sansa reunion. They have a bond but weren't close, and I thought it was conveyed very well. I particularly enjoyed the parallel in their attitudes. At first, Sansa welcomed Arya with open arms only for her enthusiasm to dampen somewhat* at the end of the North scenes, and Arya who was more reserved in the beginning ended up hugging her again from the bottom of her heart. It was also a good mirror of their personalities. They aren't on the same page, it's bittersweet. I dreaded it, but I'm actually looking forward the Stark sisters interactions this season if they're written like this and not like Jon/Sansa last season.

*When Bran gave the dagger to Arya, and when Arya said to Brienne that Catelyn vowed her to both her daughters (before Arya showed any of her fighting skills, then) Sansa's face fell, just like in the pilot when she realized that Robert called Arya beautiful, not her. Yes, it was a petty reaction. Tiger, stripes, etc. and it's fine this way. Sansa never liked to share attention or affection with her sister. It's part of who she is. It doesn't mean that she doesn't love Arya, it's quite obvious that she does, she hugged her just like she hugged Bran. But as the older one, "the pretty one", and "the one who fit", she always felt superior to her little sister imo. So I think that it was more comfortable for her to be the Lady of Winterfell, perfectly in her element, while Arya was that unladylike weirdo whom the guards didn't recognize and joked about killing people on a list, than to witness her sister fully accomplished in a way she can never be and able to bond with her protector on a level that is out of her reach. Pure speculation, I bet that had Bran offered her the dagger first, she'd have told him she had no use for it and would have proposed he give it to Arya. Sansa's ego is made this way imo, she just doesn't fare well with coming in second place and less after her sister. As long as it doesn't lead her to betray her family and fall for Littlecreeper's manipulations, I'm OK with it. I prefer it when her flaws aren't swept under the rug.

I loved how Dany began to reappear behind Daenerys Stomborn etc. Another great moment of women bonding between Dany and Missandei, Emilia Clarke's "Gurl?!" expression was gold. And Dany and Jon in the cave, yowza! Fire and sparks. When all is said and done, I find them written on quite an equal footing, and both are allowed to mark points and be right at times. Their stories have been built in parallel for so many seasons, and it makes their interaction even more enjoyable.  I find it interesting, as someone said above, that Jon's advice gave a general direction/boundaries to Daenerys and that she was successful coming up with her own plan within that range. Missandei advised her in the same way in S4, re: dealing with the Masters and the fighting pits issue. Dany needs someone to give her the big picture, to give her perspective. 

More Jon/Davos, yay! The bromance is still going strong. Davos does look smitten with Missandei. It could be fatherly, like with Shireen or Badass Mormont, and maybe it looks  flirty because Missandei is an adult? Not sure.

New Dickon doesn't live up to the first part of his name, I like him much better than the previous one. I still love Bronn, sorry not sorry. He doesn't lie about who he is and never did, although I think he does feel sympathy for Jaime and Tyrion. And he was so badass with the ballista. I didn't want him to kill the dragon, though. Glad he didn't. I know that Cersei is going to blame Jaime and Jaime only for the setback, especially after the ego strokes she got here from the Bankster (only scene I didn't care for in this episode) so I'm even happier that Qyburn's weapon didn't work as it should have.  Take that, Cersei!

NCW's acting was superb once more, during the battle, whereas he had no dialogue. Anvils galore with Tyrion and torn loyalties. I hope it doesn't lead to a betrayal. I don't think so. Tyrion had to know that Jaime was leading the convoy, and he went along. But I think he only understood then what being at war against someone you love truly meant. I love Daenerys/Tyrion as a team, and I would like it if she apologized for her accusation and if Tyrion admitted that although he's loyal to her, it costs him to fight against his brother.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Happy Harpy

[NeenerNeener]

HBO has been doing such a great job with this show that if George Martin publicly announced that he's been playing video games instead of writing for the past 6 years and has lost interest in finishing the book series at all I would be more than ok with it.

[cambridgeguy]

Jaime has to be alive because there's no way they skip a Jaime/Tyrion confrontation after everything that's happened.  It'll also be fun to see a Tyrion/Bronn chat as well.  Working for Dany has suddenly become far more profitable than working for Jaime.

Maybe the lesson to be learned from the battle is to always have some scouts doing their job unless they all got killed before they could report back.  Also, make sure you bring more than one of those ballistas.

Dany seems to have a lot of faith in Jon's ability to rally the Northern lords. 

[huahaha]

I'm surprised how many people wish that Dany would just nuke Cersei and be done with it. The whole plot is based on the War of the Roses. What would we be watching for the rest of the season if the Lancasters/Lannisters just fucked off and died? The White Walkers haven't even gotten to the Wall yet. Dany has the equivalent of nuclear weapons. Having them gives you a lot of power, but actually using them is fraught with issues.

Cersei's victories have actually been well-plotted and earned, in my opinion. Highgarden has always been known for its wealth, not its fighters. Book Euron has nearly supernatural abilities, so I'm not surprised he's ruling the seas. Even Cersei's destruction of the sept was set up in the earlier wildfire scenes against Stannis. What Cersei lacks is the ability to foresee the long-range consequences of her plans, and she is punished for that in-show (losing Tommen and now half her army + the spoils of Highgarden).

On a separate note, you know you're watching an impressive battle when you want one side to win and still empathize with people on the other side. Dickon was developed out of nowhere. Nicolaj Couster-Waldau really impressed me, showing Jaime's realization of what was about to happen, leaking shame and indecision. I also thought it was very important to have Tyrion there. He may not have realized it before, but he's openly declared war on the brother who saved his life. It was one thing to try to depose Cersei, entirely another to bring the dragon lady to flame your brother to death.

One more thing: whose idea was it to make the dragon-slaying machine out of WOOD??

Edited August 7, 2017 by huahaha

[Macbeth]

8 hours ago, Lemuria said:

I thought the smartest "people" at the battle were those three horses:  "Hey, stupid humans.  We didn't sign up for a freaking dragon.  We're out of here!"

 

The only realistic reaction from Horses to Dragons that we have seen on the show.

On the other hand:  Dothraki on the hill: "Even their horses are shit warriors."

[Macbeth]

11 minutes ago, huahaha said:

I'm surprised how many people wish that Dany would just nuke Cersei and be done with it. The whole plot is based on the War of the Roses. What would we be watching for the rest of the season if the Lancasters/Lannisters just fucked off and died? The White Walkers haven't even gotten to the Wall yet. Dany has the equivalent of nuclear weapons. Having them gives you a lot of power, but actually using them is fraught with issues.

 

Agreed - I feel that it took well over a season for the show to recover from the loss of Tywin Lannister.

[Paradigm14]

7 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

This makes great sense, but it just seems so abrupt.  In last season's finale, Bran is normal Bran.  I believe he even refers to Benjen as "Uncle" when they're dropped off at the Wall.  Yet this season he's suddenly emotionless.  Which means the change occurred off camera, which is always a cheaper way to do things.

What they needed here, was for Meera to be seen taking Bran to the wall with his brain appearing to hemorrage, like his eyes bleeding. Then having him wake up with these abilities, but no emotion. Then at least he'd have an excuse.

[Miles]

How in the hell is the water right at the shore, where a horse can still gallop through, like 10 meters deep all of a sudden?

[benteen]

8 minutes ago, Miles said:

How in the hell is the water right at the shore, where a horse can still gallop through, like 10 meters deep all of a sudden?

That's a really good question.

[Haleth]

Chekhov's Valerian steel dagger.  Gee, I wonder who Arya will kill with that?  (Mark my words, and this is not a spoiler, I'm betting this is how LF goes out.)

Jaime's dip in the surprisingly deep pond (river?)-- to survive he will have to shed the Lannister accouterment, literally stripping himself of his identity.  Lots of symbolism there.  Will his baptism turn him against Cersei once and for all?

I'm disappointed Dany didn't fly out earlier and burn the wagons carrying the gold.  I so want the bankers to continue hounding Cersei for repayment.

Yay for Drogon taking out the giant crossbow, with only a flesh wound to himself.  I sure hope Qyburn doesn't have time to build more.

Every time Rickon Dickon is on screen I can't not see Billy Bones.

Sorry, Meera, Bran just isn't that in to you.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Haleth

[YaddaYadda]

I've got some 7 pages to go through (general rule, never post after the show, so that I can actually sleep!) but here are some impressions.

I freely admit that I'm a Catelyn hater. I loathed her ass in the books and no amount of the show trying to soften her up ever made me like her. But JFC, Littlefinger and his going on about how much he loved her makes me wish I could reach into my television screen and throttle him. The lies he told, the games he played, her reaction got her killed. No amount of "I love her and I want to protect her children" will ever erase that. And I wouldn't even blink if he showed remorse for what he did, for her death and Robb's death and Rickon, if he wasn't trying to manipulate the situation to his advantage, because Littlefinger. 

Someone please shove a sock in his mouth. 

"Chaos is a ladder" is still one of my favorite lines on the show and to see it thrown back in Littlefinger's face was satisfying. It seemed to me like Bran connected that dot just then when Littlefinger talked about chaos swallowing him. 

Dany should take Dorgon and dracarys the hell out of the Red Keep. Take out Cersei and Mycroft too while she's at it, maybe he'll stop with the whole "you're so like Tywin." No-she-isn't! Stop-saying-that! I don't know if this is meant to inflate her ego further or what it is that they brought this up again. I hate how teflon Cersei is. She got all of Highgarden's gold to pay the Iron Throne's debt and it makes me ragey. It's not a pretty shade.

Field of Fire 2.0, that was really intense. And what I liked about it, my Red Keep comment aside, is that she took Jon's advice. Instead of going to King's Landing which is heavily populated, she took Drogon to the field and used him against an army instead. The battle was well done for what it was. 

As much as I didn't feel chemistry between Kit and Emilia in the last episode, I thought they very much sold it in this one. The scenes in the caves were good. The conversation between Missandei and Jon and the concept of bastards was nice. Missandei chose the person she would follow as much as the north chose Jon as their leader.

Bran/Meera. Meera is the female character who is consistently forgotten, I find, because she's not controversial. Meera is such an unsung hero and deserves all the praise in the world. Would have been nice for her to have a scene with Sansa where a Stark would thank her for bringing Bran home, and a change of clothes. 

Arya/Brienne sparring. No words. Arya is impressive and they highlighted the difference between the way Arya fights and the way Brienne fights, which I thought was cool.

Edited August 7, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[Uncle JUICE]

7 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Okay, I'm quoting myself because I was wrong.  Upon second viewing I noticed that the super bow (I forget what it's really called) is actually mounted on a swivel so Bronn could swing it around and aim it at Drogon no matter what Dany's approach vector was.

While technically yes, you are right, there's still an extremely easy solution from the dragon's perspective: circle the stupid thing. I hate this idea so much because the success of it (the Scorpion) is so infinitesimal, but I'll get back to that in a second. Drogon has the ability to orbit the weapon, which means he could fly in a rough circle around it, turn his head 90 degrees toward it, and roast the fuck out of it and anyone near it. The operator, on the other hand, not only has to load and cock the weapon, then track a flat approach vector. In order to hit an orbiting target, it would have to match target velocity and angle, AND track an anticipatory target zone (not spot, an area), hoping for zero change in both angle and speed. If the operator pulls the trigger on the weapon while moving the weapon, which he'd have to do in order to have the projectile track along a path even remotely close to the dragon, the chances of success would go even further down. Trying to hit the dragon on a perpendicular approach angle from a stationary weapon would be basically impossible: imagine trying to throw a basketball into the net from the opposite baseline, if the net was moving along a straight line right and left. I really, really hate that this is what they're saying is going to be the downfall of dragons, this idiotic weapon. (Now I'm back to why) The higher up the dragon attack angle is, the less likely that the spear can maintain lethal force: gravity would sap the power almost immediately at say a 70 degree angle (again, if you throw a baseball straight up in the air, does it go as far linearly as if you throw it on a 45 degree angle?)...and what the fuck has happened to me that I've become THIS PERSON, arguing physics and launch angles AT A DRAGON...good lord I've gotten nerdy :).

Can someone please paint a picture wherein Jaime survives the water (difficult already to imagine: he's covered in armor and has one hand, provided he took off the one that has to weight like six pounds) and gets to return to King's Landing? Because I cannot. Unless Tyrion doesn't tell Dany what he saw (treasonous and would somewhat taint Tyrion's character for me, if not outright ruin him), his brother charging her, I guess that would take the idea of a valuable prisoner out of the mix. But otherwise, if Dany learns who that was, how long would it take to decide okay, he's drowned and that's that (Jaime Lannister cannot have an off screen death), no problem, or he has to come up, and now he's a prisoner. He can't be miles down whatever crazy deep river (I can't get the westeros map to work, so I don't know what body of water it was running between the Reach and KL), and the amount of time till he's dead under water is what, CONSERVATIVELY 10 minutes? I mean that's likely 4 times too long to live. I hope the show doesn't skip over this, because the idea of Jaime being Dany (and Tyrion's) prisoner, and how valuable he'd be to Cersei, has a lot of potential. There's every reason to imagine a scene wherein Tyrion goes to Jaime in his cell and has to tell him, "Look, we contacted Cersei to negotiate for your life. She refuses to budge. I haven't told the Queen yet, but Cersei, I'm sorry, just doesn't care about you like you do her." 

Sorry, wide ranging there :) LOVED this episode.  

2 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

 

"Chaos is a ladder" is still one of my favorite lines on the show and to see it thrown back in Littlefinger's face was satisfying. It seemed to me like Bran connected that dot just then when Littlefinger talked about chaos swallowing him. 

Do we think Littlefinger understands Bran can basically see through ALL of his schemery? Because that's the sort of unease I see in his reactions. 

[Drogo]

(*All I could think in the cave scene.)

[cambridgeguy]

Just now, Haleth said:

Jaime's dip in the surprisingly deep pond (river?)-- to survive he will have to shed the Lannister accouterment, literally stripping himself of his identity.  Lots of symbolism there.  Will his baptism turn him against Cersei once and for all?

All he's seen is a bunch of foreign invaders and a dragon massacre his men.  That's not going to make him turn against Cersei - if anything, this will strengthen his resolve.  This is especially true if any captured prisoners are roasted or eaten.  There's no way they spent time making Dickon such a nice guy if he's not in for something unpleasant.  Jaime himself is safe because Tyrion will not let him die but the Tarlys are fair game.

They're obviously setting up a Jon/Dany coupling (how Targaryean of them) but in reality it

[nodorothyparker]

All I could think in those cave scenes was how the hell does Dany even know who the Children of the Forest are or why any of that is important?  Considering that until very recently, even people of the North seemed to think they and white walkers and everything else were the stuff of Old Nan's bedtimes stories, why would an exiled child raised at Viserys's crazy ass knee with his filtered view of history know anything about it?  Are we to believe Jon has been providing a tutorial in addition to what has to feel to the Dragonstone crew like incessant rantings about the coming boogeymen?

But I realize the whole point of the cave scene was to make a hard sell for Jon and Dany's nonexistent chemistry and ability to project it.

[Lady Iris]

I just loved hearing Sansa saying how happy Jon's gonna be when he sees Arya. And those hugs between the sisters, my heart just melted.

That scene with Brienne and Arya was simply awesome. Paraphrasing here but... "Who taught you..." "No one". Bahahahahah. That was perfection!

Is it too much to hope for a Jaime, Tyrion and Bronn reunion?

Stark children being reunited is just everything even if Bran is not Bran.

This show is just so damn good!!!