S07.E04: The Spoils of War

[Hecate7]

15 hours ago, Francie said:

Wait, what? She told Joffrey to be nice to Sansa, and give her a gift. She tried to teach her about war strategy. She taught him to be prideful. But raised him to be a murderer? How did she do that, exactly? That's getting a bit hyperbolic.

She turned a blind eye to his horrendous abuse of his younger brother, and to that "unpleasantness with a cat," alluded to obliquely on the show, but explicitly dealt with in the books. She enabled his torment of Sansa and on a certain level cheered him on, and encouraged him to think of himself as above truth and the law and absolutely untouchable, which in the end is exactly what got him murdered.

[Tikichick]

Book and show I always felt she was a bit in two camps in regards to how Joffrey treated Sansa.  I felt onscreen she was shown personally presenting an empathetic front to Sansa a few times, not necessarily in regards to Joffrey, but more in regards to the plight of being a woman and being used as a pawn.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Tikichick
remove apostrophe

[Wouter]

40 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

She turned a blind eye to his horrendous abuse of his younger brother, and to that "unpleasantness with a cat," alluded to obliquely on the show, but explicitly dealt with in the books. She enabled his torment of Sansa and on a certain level cheered him on, and encouraged him to think of himself as above truth and the law and absolutely untouchable, which in the end is exactly what got him murdered.

I agree. Cersei brought a lot of her misfortune on herself, at least in the book version, by encouraging Joffrey to be what he was.

[TarotQueen]

Hey guys, there is a ton of Rhaegar and Lyanna talk in both the threads I frequent here (recent episode book talk and Season 7 specs and spoilers).  I'm going to hit up the character thread on some stuff I read here if anyone wants to follow. 

[DarkRaichu]

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

I don't understand why she doesn't torch Euron's navy and the Red Keep, but then it would be game over for Cersei

She most likely could not find Euron's magical fleet.  It was probably equipped with cloaking device in addition to warp engine :P

[Francie]

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

The actor who played Pycelle already looked old in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade back in 1989 before he drank from the false grail!

A lot of people online have joked about Jon drawing those Whitewalker drawings himself but now I'm kind of convinced it's true!

One of my favorite scenes with Pycelle is the a deleted scene from season 3 (I think) with Tywin.  Tywin is fishing down in the bay, and he calls Pycelle out for not being the weak and blustering fool that he pretends to be. A great, great scene and a great bit of acting.  Such a shame they cut it. If you haven't seen it, I encourage you to seek it out.

[Blonde Gator]

11 minutes ago, Francie said:

One of my favorite scenes with Pycelle is the a deleted scene from season 3 (I think) with Tywin.  Tywin is fishing down in the bay, and he calls Pycelle out for not being the weak and blustering fool that he pretends to be. A great, great scene and a great bit of acting.  Such a shame they cut it. If you haven't seen it, I encourage you to seek it out.

So true!  Oddly, I watched a deleted scenes video earlier today.  It had a bit on this, but the whole scene is even better!  I wish they'd included it in the series.  It explains quite a bit for the non-book readers.

[Tikichick]

28 minutes ago, TarotQueen said:

Hey guys, there is a ton of Rhaegar and Lyanna talk in both the threads I frequent here (recent episode book talk and Season 7 specs and spoilers).  I'm going to hit up the character thread on some stuff I read here if anyone wants to follow. 

Thank you for the heads up.

[Colorado David]

Loved the episode. A couple of quibbles tho:

1. I do not ever want to see a horse's leg lopped off, and the agonizing neigh from the horse. War is always cruel to horses.

2. No way Jamie's horse would run toward a landed dragon, no matter what urging. Their instinct to survive would take over.

3. EWWWW no more Dany/Jon romance talk.  Ick.

4. Bran - ok please stop talking in riddles, you can explain things you are seeing to people (and we the audience).

[screamin]

4 hours ago, Tikichick said:

Whoops, only intended to like, hit quote instead.

All these years I have never come up with any real potential identities for Septa Lemore.  I believe my best contenders were Gendry's mother and Elia Martell, both of which were pretty much non starters in even to me.

It's petty of me to remember this, but Elia is unlikely to be a candidate. When Cersei thought resentfully about how Elia was unworthy to be Rhaegar's wife instead of herself, one of the disqualifying details that she remembers about her is that she had a flat chest.

The deceased character's backstory that I most regret we will probably never learn is Elia's. What little we're told about her as a character makes her seem more interesting than any of her contemporaries. Lyanna seems too much like a Mary Sue, and Rhaegar too much a deluded narcissist to really appeal.

[YaddaYadda]

20 minutes ago, screamin said:

It's petty of me to remember this, but Elia is unlikely to be a candidate. When Cersei thought resentfully about how Elia was unworthy to be Rhaegar's wife instead of herself, one of the disqualifying details that she remembers about her is that she had a flat chest.

The deceased character's backstory that I most regret we will probably never learn is Elia's.

I think we'll find out more about her. Doran is still alive and Hotah is around and there's Ulmer the Outlaw who might have a little bit more to say than what's he's been allowed to. Cersei and Jon Connington don't count because the put downs are from jealousy and Barristan liked her, but he called her a kitchen drab which was just mean, so his opinion on her doesn't count either. 

Edited August 11, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

This topic has severely strayed from discussion of episode 4. Please take speculation and past events discussion/analysis to an appropriate topic or risk losing your post.

Thanks.

[Macbeth]

On 8/10/2017 at 4:13 PM, Blonde Gator said:

I got the distinct impression that Sansa is one of the "things" Cersei informed Tycho Nestoris (Braaviosi banker) that she "wanted to get back-ah"

Oh shit.  I thought it might be Casterly Rock, Cersei wanted back, and Grey Worm was screwed.  But Arya's comment about the crappy guards and Bran's comment about he thought Arya was headed to kill Cersei, and giving her the blade....

Well shit.

[Constantinople]

I liked Missandei's scene with Jon and Davos when she talked about why she serves Daenerys.  Nice to see her do something besides reel off Daenerys's titles.  Also, it echoed the scene in Season 3 when Gendry explained to Arya why he was staying with the Brotherhood Without Banners and how the Brotherhood chose Lord Beric as their leader.

[crowceilidh]

Quote

 

Dragons can grab fish from the sea. I wish they showed them grabbing big tunas or sword fish from the sea on the show. Yum!

Or large armoured men who have just been swept into the pond beside them... if only it didn't have this ouch-y in its underarmses....

Edited August 13, 2017 by crowceilidh

[Constantinople]

Dickon looks old enough to have been in the Battle of Blackwater Bay, but he said the Sack of Highgarden was his first battle.

If Pod was old enough to participate in the Battle of Blackwater Bay, so was Dickon

I'm assuming the Tyrell bannermen fought in the Battle of Blackwater Bay

[Shimmergloom]

On 8/9/2017 at 11:15 PM, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Sansa was more openly happy to see Arya but it was when Arya reached out to hug Sansa after their talk that chocked me up. Arya is capable of love and she clearly loves her sister.

Yes, I think this is lost in this episode because of 'dragons'. But it was my favorite part of the episode and a top series moment as well.  I wasn't expecting the 2nd hug.

[Shimmergloom]

On 8/10/2017 at 3:32 PM, Francie said:

What I haven't seen is what she's done with these lessons that had been positive. She aligned herself with people who have pillaged and murdered.

While she has done this, remember everyone has.  Even the Starks were allied with the Boltons, Ned was willing to ally with LF and Robb was fine with allying with the Freys and with the Greyjoys(when he thought Theon could convince them). 

And Jon has allied with the Wildling, who we know pillaged and raped in the North for eons and despite what we might think of Olly, Wildlings killed and ATE his family. Jon is also forgiving the Houses that were responsible for Rickon's death.

Tyrion allied with the Hill People who pillaged and raped in the Vale and who Tywin later sent to pillage and rape in the Storm Lands.  And then Tyrion allied with the people who framed him for murder, killed his Niece and with Varys who may have kept Shae in KL to testify against him.

Arya went to train with people who kill anyone they are paid to, innocent or not.

Sansa is keeping Littlefinger as an erstwhile ally, despite him betraying her by giving her to the Boltons with promises that she would be safe and her knowing LF is also responsible for her being framed for murder.

Pretty much all the 'good guys' on the show and books have had evil allies.

[Francie]

3 hours ago, Shimmergloom said:

While she has done this, remember everyone has.  Even the Starks were allied with the Boltons, Ned was willing to ally with LF and Robb was fine with allying with the Freys and with the Greyjoys(when he thought Theon could convince them). 

And Jon has allied with the Wildling, who we know pillaged and raped in the North for eons and despite what we might think of Olly, Wildlings killed and ATE his family. Jon is also forgiving the Houses that were responsible for Rickon's death.

Tyrion allied with the Hill People who pillaged and raped in the Vale and who Tywin later sent to pillage and rape in the Storm Lands.  And then Tyrion allied with the people who framed him for murder, killed his Niece and with Varys who may have kept Shae in KL to testify against him.

Arya went to train with people who kill anyone they are paid to, innocent or not.

Sansa is keeping Littlefinger as an erstwhile ally, despite him betraying her by giving her to the Boltons with promises that she would be safe and her knowing LF is also responsible for her being framed for murder.

Pretty much all the 'good guys' on the show and books have had evil allies.

When Robb aligned with the Boltons and Ned with Littlefinger, neither had an understanding of the great crimes they ad or were capable of committing. Robb trusted Bolton with safeguarding his family.  Robb reaching out to Balon Greyjoy happened 10 years after his rebellion.  His losing Theon was punishment, and he served his term. I can see Robb's rationale. At the same time, just how well did that decision to send Theon to Balon turn out? Robb starting turning grey, and he lost everything. The same with aligning with the duplicitous Walder Frey. However, again, Robb was not aware of any crime Walder Frey had committed when he reached out to him. The Late Walder Frey was known for being a weasel. And a lech. 

But Daenerys put on her council a woman who had wantonly killed an innocent 15-year-old girl for nothing more than her name. If anything, Daenerys should have related to Myrcella, having been a teen aged girl who was targeted for assassin -- came within seconds of being assassinated--all because of her name. And Tyrion called Ellaria out for it right before Dany, and all Dany said was "cut that out, the both of you," like they were squabbling children.  

Sansa, Tyrion, and Arya have all tred well into the grey areas. That doesn't give Dany a pass for aligning with murderers and mauraders.  Especially, in my book, the woman who proudly murdered Myrcella. 

[Constantinople]

Jaime: When we win this war, all the castles in the Seven Kingdoms will be yours to choose from, with no one left to take them away from you.

Bronn: Yes, I'm sure Queen Cersei's reign will be quiet and peaceable.

Jaime: Stranger things have happened.

Bronn: Like what?

Jaime (silence)

[Francie]

59 minutes ago, doram said:

Maybe Dany is looking at it from the perspective that the Lannisters started murdering babies and little girls first so she's not going to judge Dorne for paying them back in coin.

If Dany actually ever thought that the sins of the fathers should be born out by the children and grandchildren, then she should offer herself as a sacrifice and penance to Jon Snow for what her father did to his grandfather and uncle. 

Not demand the he bend the knee to her. 

[Francie]

55 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Jaime: When we win this war, all the castles in the Seven Kingdoms will be yours to choose from, with no one left to take them away from you.

Bronn: Yes, I'm sure Queen Cersei's reign will be quiet and peaceable.

Jaime: Stranger things have happened.

Bronn: Like what?

Jaime (silence)

Like dragons flying again and white walkers and grumpkins being out there, in the dark. 

If this were a meritocracy, and I had to rank who should be put in charge of the store, it would go something like

1) Davos

2) Jon

3) Jaime 

4) Sansa

5) Dolorous Edd

6) Sam

7) Gilly

8) Gendry

9) Lyanna Mormont (her pro-North bias would be her big downfall) 

10) Brienne of Tarth

....

45,603) Theon

45,604) Tyrion

45,605) That soilder who just wanted to help his dad fish

.....

118,245) Robin Aryn

....

Fourth to last) Cersei

Third to last) Dany

Second to last) Bronn (he'd put the place in even worse hock than Robert) 

Last) Littlefinger

I'm sure I'm forgetting someone who should be a legit contender. 

Edited August 13, 2017 by Francie

[MrsR]

Varys.

 

The dude gets shit done.

[Francie]

1 minute ago, MrsR said:

Varys.

 

The dude gets shit done.

Yeah, but what's his agenda? I don't buy that "for the realm" stuff.  He's too much a wild card for my liking. 

3 minutes ago, doram said:

Dany apologised to Jon for what Aerys did, which is more than any other character has ever done on this show - admitted the wrong-doing of their House. In addition, I think the near-extermination of House Targaryen, including all the innocent blood spilt, has more than made up for the deaths of Rickon and Brandon Stark.

And taking it back to the Martell-Lannister feud - no apologies, no admission of wrong-doing. Of course innocent blood will be spilt and continue to spill because that's a cycle of violence that no one has tried to end. 

You are actually justifying Ellaria killing Myrcella? 

It's okay for Ellaria to kill Myrcella because Ellaria didn't get an apology? Seriously? 

[Francie]

32 minutes ago, doram said:

 

What was the justification for Rhaenyra and Aegon's and Elia's deaths? 

(For the record: I'm not justifying anything. I'm pointing out that this is a blood feud. Innocent people have been killed on both sides. Someone needs to stop it - like Dany did when she apologised on behalf of Aerys & ended the Targaryen-Stark blood feud - but there is no Designated Bad Guy in this. Both sides - Martells and Lannisters - did the same thing to each other). 

For the record, I can say that this doesn't excuse Daenerys for putting Ellaria on her team.  Dany isn't stopping these blood feuds, she's picking sides by putting three fueders on her team. She was backing Ellaria, who took Dorn in a bloody revolution that left Doran and Tristane dead. Olenna was trying to use Dany to get back at Cersei. And Tyrion wanted payback against his father for never giving him Casterly Rock.  

Dany decided to put a child murderer on her team.  I judge Tywin for using the Mountain. I judge Dany for her choice of company. She killed masters for nailing 163 or so children to crosses. But yet, since Ellaria can give her Dornish ships, she's all, "Yeah, totes cool -- I'm not judgy, you had your reasons, I'm sure." Perhaps if Ellaria had killed 161 more children, and not just her nephew(ish) and a girl entrusted to her family for safekeeping, Dany would have had a change of heart. 

Look, Yara's even worse.  Her response was pretty much, "that's hot. Can I make out with you?"

Edited August 13, 2017 by Francie

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

We're sailing dangerously close to the sea of off-topicness and much like the Doom of Valyria, if you sail too close to those waters, your post is doomed.

[Ambrosefolly]

On 8/10/2017 at 11:12 PM, Francie said:

Margaery and Cersei were playing the game of thrones, volleying back and forth.  Margaery crept into her son's room, attempted to manipulate him, made fun of him behind his back, and then conspired to get Cersei out of King's Landing. Cersei genuinely worried for Tommen's well being in the hands of the Tyrells. She wasn't going anywhere. Frankly, given that the Tyrells had murdered Tommen's older brother, Cersei made the right call there. So long as he was tractable, the Tyrells would've used Tommen. If he wasn't, there were no limits as to what Olenna was capable of. 

Cersei would have settled for getting out of that mess with trial by combat. Once those conspiring against her took that option away, they didn't give her much alternative -- if any alternative -- to get herself out of that mess. 

Cersei did approach Olenna about working together to get Loras out of jail.  Olenna, perhaps seemingly wisely at the time, but in the end not so much, turned her down. 

She did truly, honestly believe that he was guilty. But, yes, she stacked the deck with a few witnesses eager to help and a few not so eager, but helpful anyway. 

The interesting point to that is that the writer of that episode was told by D&D to go back and pull all the actual evidence there was that pointed toward Tyrion's guilty. The writer acknowledged that there was quite a lot. 

Wait, what? She told Joffrey to be nice to Sansa, and give her a gift. She tried to teach her about war strategy. She taught him to be prideful. But raised him to be a murderer? How did she do that, exactly? That's getting a bit hyperbolic. 

(Below goes under the following quote, but my device won't cooperate)

I don't think either are qualified for the job.  Putting aside Jon, Davos, Tyrion, and even Jaime as candidates, I'd give the job to Lyanna Mormont before I'd give it to either of those two ladies. 

 

When did Margaery make fun of Tommen? Seriously, I'm asking. The closest I saw was when Margaery was bragging about Tommen's virility after the wedding and her non-subtle gloating to Cersei. Salty yes, but hardly insulting, at that point she was just glad that her husband wasn't completely gay and killed animals and hookers. I honestly don't understand the argument that Cersei being this guarding lioness, trying to protect her son for the big bad Tyrells and her Uncle Kevin. It seemed that Margaery and Kevin just wanted Tommen to be seen as a good king. Cersei's meddling actually kept bring Olenna back to the capital, which I am guessing was the opposite effect she wanted.  Cersei was the one undermining Tommen's rule the entire time, first arming the Faith Militant then talking Tommen out of killing the Faith Militant. It just seemed that Cersei was jealous of both Tommen and Margaery because they were making their arranged marriage worked and seemed content.

As for poor Cersei coming to Olenna for help and being rejected, Olenna initially went to Cersei about getting Loras out of imprisonment only to be given the runaround by Cersei. At that point, Olenna figured that when it came down to it, Cersei would still gleefully sacrifice both Loras and Margaery even if it wasn't necessary, and Olenna wasn't going to give her anymore ammo to do this.

And it was Olenna and Littlefinger that killed Joffery, at least on the show.  Margaery, Loras and especially Mace didn't have anything to do with (books slightly different, I've read). 

Here is my counter opinion: Dany's attack on the the Lannister/Tarly's army was as rationally as your argument that Cersei's destruction of the Sept of Baleor was. Dany's has dragons and the Red Keep is her ancestrol home at the very least, which Cersei is now squatting at. She has a few choices when it comes to using those dragons to conquer the Seven Kingdoms.

a)Don't use the dragons, keep them as reptilian cats

b)Burn down King's Landing, filled with innocent, albeit blood thirsty, civilians.

c) Attack an army that has killed one of her allies (and her men guarding Highgarden), looted her castle of it gold and food, and preparing to take the stores of the other farmers. An army lead by an enemy and a turncoat. It wasn't the charity train, it was the loot train.

I do pity the position that Jamie and Cersei put all the soldiers in, but it isn't like Dany killed them at dinner or at church.

[xtwheeler]

On 8/11/2017 at 6:30 AM, YaddaYadda said:

Arthur himself has been brought up in every single book. There's talk about his character, his prowess in battle for there not to be more. And as soon as he's brought up, we're reminded that he was the Sword of the Morning and the wielder of Dawn. There is a lot more going on there and I'm not convinced he's dead at all and there's something in TWOIAF that made me wonder even more.

Yes, Ashara with the violet eyes.

Returning "Dawn" to the family was the reason Ned ended up with Lyanna after she gave birth to Jon.  "Dawn" was indeed forged from the heart of a dying star. If you notice on the show's flashback to Jon's birth, Dawn sits beside Lyanna's childbed as she gives birth. "The Prince/ss That Was Promised" was prophecied to be born beneath a bleeding star - - Dawn, forged from the heart of a dying star, was covered in blood from the birth as Jon was born. 

[John Potts]

At last, a Stark reunion (well OK, we already had Bran/Sansa) - it's only been 5 Seasons. Liked the callback to Season 1 with Arya not being recognised by the guards and the children meeting up in the crypts. And I'm assuming Arya learned Rickon's fate while she was down there (Sansa had stated that his body was taken to the crypts following the Battle of the Bastards), though it would have been nice to have a line confirming that.

Brienne seemed to forget the lesson she was taught (at least in the books) - don't lose your temper in battle and go for the quick win, because that seems exactly how Arya bested her.

As for the final battle - yes, it was great to see Team Danny getting a win and showing the destructive power of both the Dothraki and dragons. But there were numerous problems with it - so last week, Euron could intercept the Unsullied fleet but this week he couldn't? Sure, they had a dragon with them, but Euron wasn't to know that (indeed, hunting Euron's fleet is exactly what Danny should be doing - he's currently the major force preventing Danny from seizing Kings Landing). And the gold had already got back to Kings Landing? OK, how (beyond "Plot contrivance")? Gold is both valuable and heavy (which they actually showed when Bronn was given his bag of gold), it takes a lot of effort to transport millions in gold. The easiest way would be by ship, but I doubt they were stupid enough to just hand it all over to Euron. 

Also, the battle itself was confusing. Generally, cavalry cannot defeat disciplined infantry alone because horses won't charge a spear wall, but if the line does break, the infantry are screwed. But there seemed to be only one infantry square and so the Lannisters' defences should have rapidly disintegrated once Drogon had broken the line (and way to claim credit for that, random Dothraki), yet the battle seemed to drag on for some time after that. OK, kudos to Bronn for shooting Drogon, but he should never have been able to take that many shots.

On ‎8‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 3:01 AM, Helena Dax said:

I was watching the episode with some friends and we joked that Jon had spent all night drawing those pictures in the caves, heh

I did think the pigments were remarkably vibrant considering they were meant to be something like 7000 years old!

On ‎8‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 5:17 AM, Francie said:

Who holds Aegon as a remarkable man?  He was a great enough warrior to get 6 of the 7 kingdoms to kneel, but I see no one say, "Hey, you know who was a great leader? Aegon the Conqueror."

You know one of the requirements for being a great King (or Queen) of the Seven Kingdoms? BEING QUEEN. If Danny doesn't kill Cersei (and it'll have to be kill as Cerse's never going to surrender) the fight will continue. Jon & Tyrion can talk all they want about not wanting to burn down cities, but by refusing to attack Kings Landing, she's prolonging the war. Until the Red Keep falls, the fight will continue. Yes, innocents will die (probably hundreds or thousands) - but innocents will also die if you continue besieging the city, and in a siege it will be the innocent who die first. If Dragons are nukes, it's like dropping the Little Boy* on Hiroshima: it killed thousands of innocents, but probably saved more by bringing the war to a quicker end.

* Or maybe The Fat Man - I forget which nuke was dropped on Hiroshima and which on Nagasaki