S01.E07: You Get What You Need

[annlaw78]

22 minutes ago, gingerella said:

does nobody else find it bizarre and incongruous that immediately after finding out that celeste's son Max was physically abusing her daughter, Renata is letting Amabella frolics on the beach with Max, her child's abuser? Yeah, this ending was just ridiculously unrealistic to me.

I think the supposition is this was several weeks later, and it was Perry's influence and example that was leading to Max's misbehavior. So, his death, and the therapy I'm sure Celeste is giving him, is probably ameliorating things.  Plus, the adult:child ratio on the beach was 5:6, unlikely Amabella's at any risk.  

[FinnishViewer]

3 hours ago, annlaw78 said:

That's also why it's a bit hoky the women would think they'd have to lie -- they'd have the best attorneys in the Bay Area swarming the police station before you could say "double-broken urethra."

It might not be just about being prosecuted or not, but they might be afraid that the truth gets out and can hurt the kids?

[film noire]

Only a six week habit,  but I'm going to miss this on Sunday night-- so effortless and exceptional -- all the splash of Douglas Sirk, without dipping into sentimentality or ham-handedness. They just fucking took it and ran. 

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

does nobody else find it bizarre and incongruous that immediately after finding out that celeste's son Max was physically abusing her daughter, Renata is letting Amabella frolics on the beach with Max, her child's abuser? Yeah, this ending was just ridiculously unrealistic to me.

I bought it because the absence of toxic male energy set them all free; we see the men crooning at a microphone about love, even as the women fight to survive a male fist --  and having done so, a kind of Arcadia sets in, with boys returned to their mothers, and the mothers to themselves -- so I fucking loved all that frolicking. Felt earned and deserved.

Edited April 3, 2017 by film noire

[Razzberry]

Rebar through the throat. Very satisfying end, better than expected. ;)

 

[chocolatine]

Great episode which would have been even better with less singing and fewer loaded looks between Maddie/Joseph/Joseph's wife. I knew that, unless the show completely changed the ending of the book, Celeste wasn't going to die, but I felt so scared for her the whole episode, even when she was in the apartment - the moment she was closing the refrigerator door, I thought Perry would appear behind it.

I thought it was inappropriate of Maddie to reveal her affair to Abigail last week (and to keep talking to her about it this week), and even worse that she told Jane. At this rate the whole town will know before Ed (I know he already suspects, but she's never explicitly told him); how humiliating for him. If she's not going to tell him, she shouldn't tell anyone. The whole affair storyline makes her look like a hypocrite with respect to her continued anger at Nathan.

A small detail that I found amusing was when Perry and Gordon walked into the fundraiser together (after Celeste and Renata walked in ahead of them), a bunch of women were immediately all over Perry, and only when he excused himself did they even notice that Gordon was there as well.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Inside the episode:

 

Clips:

 

[mochamajesty]

6 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

Yes but there is a difference between a dick and the big bad. Abusive husband Perry is evil but in a realistic way. Jane's rapist was evil in a realistic way.  But making Perry the root of all that was evil on the show makes him the big bad which feels less realistic.

The show has done a pretty good job depicting the intricacies of domestic violence but making him the master villain feels like they took it away.

So abusers cannot also be rapists? Abusing your wife makes you the biggest villian. And abuse abd rape are both about control. Not that big of a leap.

Naming Perry as the rapist doesn't erase the rest of Perry's violent acts. I am not seeing this "logic" at all. Sometimes people are evil.

Name someone else who makes sense in the final episode. Everything that we were shown led up to this. Not sure why folks are complaining now.

Edited April 3, 2017 by mochamajesty

[acid burn]

On a totally shallow note, my Best Dressed Awards go to Renata, Bonnie, and Maddie. (I'm biased about the latter because I'm about RW's size physically and and a man's tux shirt would fit me like a minidress, plus be comfortable and more original than the Breakfast at Tiffany's dresses and tiaras most everyone else was sure to rock.)

Also, perhaps a silly question, but why did Nathan dress up like Jailhouse Rock Elvis and not sing that song? (Or was the song he sang from that movie? I'm not a big Elvis fan.)

Last but certainly not least: R.I.P, A.Skars. You were a real bastard and you deserved a pipe through the neck. However, I never got to objectify you like I wanted to. Pick a less wifebeaterish, non-rapey role next time, please. 

[CofCinci]

Guess Celeste never had to finish putting that IKEA together.  

[Ina123]

8 hours ago, madam magpie said:

I can. Sometimes, you need to let things go. There's no better situation than this.

"Some folks just need killin'."

[jacksgirl]

Two random thoughts. Interesting that Perry was always a monster with his boys and now that they are all friends, can Renata please pronounce Madeline's name right instead of like the little French girl in the book Madeleine?

[FemmyV]

5 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

I appreciate that when Jane told Celeste it was Max who was the bully, there was no fight that Ziggy was wrong.

I think Celeste knew it in her heart, the minute she heard it, because of Perry. NK was soooo good in this. I've always liked her as an actress and am happy that her work in BLL may finally shut up many of her critics. Really I thought everyone did well. Amazing ensemble cast.

5 hours ago, madam magpie said:

She shoved him off a woman he seemed to be trying to kill. The legal system is awful, especially when it comes to domestic violence and rape, but I find it hard to believe a DA would go after Bonnie, or that a good attorney couldn't get her off.

Agreed. I think it was done as brilliant subtext, but not necessarily brilliant, bullet-proof plot. A few weeks ago in a different thread, I mentioned that Bonnie was positioning / being positioned as an alpha, in the way she was taking initiative to deal with the Maddie situation. Her snap reaction to Perry's moves against the other women, was to go on the offense without even thinking about it. Protecting the alpha is documented behavior. Just like Celeste protected her family alpha (Perry), here (Perry's death) is an example of the tribe coming together to protect an alpha female. And I have no trouble believing a boxercise instructor would also have taken enough self-defense courses to knock Perry off his feet.

 

4 hours ago, gingerella said:

does nobody else find it bizarre and incongruous that immediately after finding out that celeste's son Max was physically abusing her daughter, Renata is letting Amabella frolics on the beach with Max, her child's abuser? Yeah, this ending was just ridiculously unrealistic to me.

One of the show's big themes is forgiveness, so no, I'm not surprised. Renata showed herself to be forgiving towards Jane, previously, and there was that part of the bigger group's discussion, before Perry approached them.

[shelley1234]

9 hours ago, archer1267 said:

Maybe someone who read the book knows the answer to this. How did Perry father children who are roughly the same age with two women - was he already married to Celeste when he impregnated Jane (thereby not just a beater, but also a cheater)? Or did he meet Celeste quickly after the night with Jane, have a whirlwind romance with her and then impregnate her with the twins? 

Adam Scott/Ed looked much better clean-shaven.

 

 

 

 

I think that Perry probably rapes women often when he is away at business.   They said Celeste had a really hard time getting pregnant, so he was clearly married when he raped Jane.   The idea that Perry remembered her is what I find unrealistic.   She wasn't a person.  The idea that he'd remember the face of the woman he raped 7 years ago.  Yeah.  No.  

8 hours ago, dhilde85 said:

Why did Celeste have plastic gloves on when she was at the apartment?

She was cleaning and setting up the apartment.   

8 hours ago, susannot said:

Ed was much better looking clean shaven.  I think Maddy will get back with him.

The question is if Ed would take Maddie back.   I think he would since I think he loves her more than what she did, but I think the keeper in this situation is totally Ed.  

8 hours ago, susannot said:

So Perry thought he could fight off 5 women and still brutalize and kill his wife.  There is no doubt in my mind that he was trying to, and would have, killed Celeste in front of witnesses.  It is possible that he thought those witnesses were worthless, because they were women.  Or it is just that he was insane with rage.

 

This is where it didn't ring true to DV to me.   Abusers are horrible when there are no witnesses, but they tend to have an amazing amount of control in front of an audience.   The idea that Perry would beat Celeste like that in front of all her friends and the whole community is just not what happens.   I feared they were going to have what happened most in real life situations.  The woman does not want to make a scene or be embarrassed in public, so she is willing to put herself in risk to not ruin her family's reputation in the community.   

I thought it all ended the way I thought it would, but it was still a good ride.  Now I really want to read the book since I know so much more would be fleshed out in there.  

I am surprised, but not in a bad way that they had singing and didn't use Reese or Nicole's singing chops.   It was better the way they did it, so I am glad they didn't go that way just because they have two women who they know can sing.  

And yes, Kidman should win all the awards.  She was amazing in her role.   There was so much that was authentic to what she brought to that part.   I'll say that Shailene Woodley also did a great job with a difficult part,   She showed being at the brink and trying to hold it together for her kid and she was in a cast with a juggernaut of women.   She never looked out of place.   She held her own and then some.

[Eyes High]

Bonnie shoving Perry was oh so satisfying, as was all the women banding together to protect Celeste (and then Bonnie). I agree with the poster who said that the beach frolicking with the kids felt earned.

It's interesting that only one of the twins was bullying Amabella. I had assumed that the twins were tag-teaming her. 

I loved Tom kicking Gordon out of the cafe mid-threat, although I guess Gordon and Renata are birds of a feather in the bullying department. Tom and Jane were cute together, too.

Nicole Kidman was amazing in this. All the awards!

Edited April 3, 2017 by Eyes High

[CofCinci]

When Celeste walked off with Perry to drive to the party like she was a death row inmate headed to the gas chamber - Nicole Kidman locked in her Emmy nomination.  Her body was so defeated.  I hope she gets credit for how physical this role was for her -- not just for getting thrown around by her costar but for those subtle moments like the walk to the car. 

[nara]

6 hours ago, KaleyFirefly said:

I'll post my book comments in the book thread...

I thought it was unrealistic, at that point, that Celeste was still going to go to the party with Perry. She looked so terrified for her life after he found out about the apartment. He easily could have killed her in the car.

I actually thought it was very realistic. She looked like she was walking to her execution as they went to the car. I think it was a combination of fatalism and trying to keep things normal so that Perry wouldn't lose it. I was screaming at the television when she told him she was leaving him, rather than pretending to give him another chance. But perhaps she's not good at lying to him.

Comments above question why the ladies lie. I  think there are a few reasons: to protect Celeste from prosecution since the abuse history is undocumented; to protect the children if Perry's behavior has to be publicly shared; to protect Jane because her role might be considered premeditated; to protect Bonnie whose history of domestic violence might make it look like she deliberately pushed Perry down the stairs; to keep any healing/recovery private; to avoid involving Renata, Celeste and Jane from any scandal that might hurt their careers; and just plain panic. I suspect Madeline of orchestrating the lie, and we have seen her in the past not think of the ramifications of her actions  (finding Saxon Baker, the affair). I can see her following her first instincts of covering up the truth without realizing that it would make the police more suspicious. 

[eastcoastress]

I stumbled upon this series last week (so, episode 6, halfway thru). I was immediately riveted by the performances, filming, directing...all so hypnotic. I quickly found the start of BLL and essentially binged until last night's finale. 

For the most part, incredibly authentic stories & performances. They left audiences pretty satisfied if not wishing for more and that's a great way to end a show, something many can't seem to do. 

On the point of Bonnie's pivotal role seeming out of the blue--I am not a book reader but I did pick up on subtle hints woven throughout that made her final role feel earned (I did not suspect her role, but having actions feel earned is key for me). And these  hints weren't anvilicious, which I love. Some of you have noted a comment here and there she has made. How she reached for her neck. How her gaze immediately zoned in on Perry & Celeste and just *knew*.   Also, perhaps Bonnie's reaction to Nathan & Abby fighting, the screaming and how she ran to comfort Skye with a look of horror in her eyes -- flashbacks of violence? Something else I recall was her hybrid yoga class that seemed more self-defense and empowering. I remember a lot of comments wondering why that scene even existed, why Bonnie (peace & zen) had such a styled class.   It wasn't hugely advertised, it allowed for Ed to draw more speculation (misdirection, even) from audiences, and gave more insight into their future dinner scene. Just really well done with Bonnie's character all around. 

Loved these damaged, seemingly highly competitive, petty, & snarky women coming together in what had to have been seconds. That was sold beautifully. The insecurities YET the  power of these women, just wow (although I echo those who didn't love Maddy's affair plot; I suppose it drove inroads between Maddy and Abby (should it though?)  and illustrated her level of instability (but that is something we already had), and gave credence to how Ed felt nearly emasculated in the relationship (though his feelings didn't require action on Maddy's part to be valid, imo). 

Stand outs for me were NK and LD.  Skarsgard because he sold the menace.  He has the most predatory walk & posture. I could pick him out of a crowd of hundreds, walking away from me, thanks to years of his role on True Blood. He's not my 'type' but I am glad to see he can act alongside a lot of heavy hitters. Did anyone notice his stutter in the car with Celeste when he realized everything was unraveling, as he was losing control?  If I didn't imagine that, well, then I think that was pretty interesting.  

And finally, what a great cast of kids. Usually, as soon as I hear there's kids, I'm all "ugh kids."  And especially when there's a kid who is supposed to be 'the precocious one'.  That so often backfires.  VERY impressed with these young actors. 

Edited April 3, 2017 by eastcoastress

[ElectricBoogaloo]

The whole time that Celeste was setting up the apartment, I kept expecting Perry to burst in and beat the crap out of her. Later when Perry had her trapped in the car, I was like GIRL, just say yes to whatever he wants right now so that you can GET THE FUCK OUT OF THE CAR. I was terrified that he was going to drive off and deliberately crash the car just to hurt her. I had never been so happy to see Renata when she knocked on Perry's car window. Thank goodness Celeste used that opportunity to run.

It cracks me up that the fancy elementary school couldn't just get a karaoke machine for the rich parents. No, they hired a band and backup singers and everything.

Once again, Nathan was a dick and tried to make it seem like Ed was the one instigating things.

I loved that the Perry reveal was done with absolutely no words. Even though I had read the book a few years ago so I already knew who died, it was still a really intense moment.

On a shallow note, I'm an Audrey Hepburn fan so I loved all the different Audrey costumes (even though I agree that the Elvis/Audrey theme was ridiculous - it reminded me of those stupid theme parties in college).

The closest Ikea to Monterey is in East Palo Alto, about 90 minutes away so I wonder if Celeste drove there while the kids were at school or if she had everything shipped to the apartment. I know it's a nitpicky thing to think about but that was the first thing that popped into my head when I saw her with Ikea instructions.

After seven episodes of Amabella looking miserable, it was nice to finally see her smile in that last beach scene. I bet everyone had fun filming that too.

9 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

I guess it was left to us to infer that maybe Bonnie had a history with being a victim of domestic violence during childhood or maybe in a previous relationship. Maybe that's why she lives a life of calm/zen now.  But I didn't infer that, I had to read the summary posted here and think, oh. Because I just wasn't given enough clues to come to that conclusion, other than her just being outraged/horrified at Perry's behavior. I guess I could have gotten there by questioning why she just didn't run back for help instead of charging in by herself, that maybe she did that because it was personal. But the show just didn't devote enough time to Bonnie's character for me to think about all that.

 

Quote

There was no reason Bonnie pushed Perry. Now that the series has ended I hope it's okay to mention the book. There was a reason for her doing that. Here, it was out of the blue.

I don't think it was out of the blue or that we needed Bonnie to have a history of domestic violence for her to be the one to push Perry. You really never know what your fight or flight response will be until you're actually in that situation. Yes, she was further away from the group, but we saw Renata, Jane, and Madeline all grabbing and hitting Perry (it looked like one of them even jumped on his back at one point - I think it was Jane) to stop him from hurting Celeste further. I saw Bonnie's response as similar. She wasn't trying to kill him. She saw him ruthlessly kicking and punching a woman who was already on the ground while shoving a hitting the women who were trying to protect Celeste.

[Eyes High]

34 minutes ago, shelley1234 said:

This is where it didn't ring true to DV to me.   Abusers are horrible when there are no witnesses, but they tend to have an amazing amount of control in front of an audience.   The idea that Perry would beat Celeste like that in front of all her friends and the whole community is just not what happens.

They showed Perry drinking at the event. Maybe that erased some of his control.

[Ina123]

6 hours ago, Anya said:

...And falling down just a few stairs in highly unlikely to kill a person unless you are very unlucky. How he dies could have been written so much more creatively and intricately.

I guess you didn't see the rebar sticking out of his throat. He was impaled.

[BusyOctober]

They chose the wrong Rolling Stones quote for the episode title.  Based on this ending, I would have chosen "(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction".

I read the book, and the whole time watching over the 7 weeks, I thought they would need to rush the last episode to wrap up everything, and  I was right. Sigh...not satisfied at all.  Overall, I don't have any complaints with the acting; I really enjoyed the performances.  I guess I am more dissatisfied with the writing. I'll re-read the book to put things right again!

[shelley1234]

2 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

They showed Perry drinking at the event. Maybe that erased some of his control.

Maybe, but it still doesn't ring true to me.   Abusers often say they are out of control, however their abuse is usually nothing if not controlled.  The abusers often behave in public in such a manner that no one would know what was going on at home.  The idea that Perry would beat his wife in front of her friends and everyone.   Sure, it's good tv....but I just can't swallow it from what I know of abusers.  

[CofCinci]

27 minutes ago, shelley1234 said:

I think that Perry probably rapes women often when he is away at business.   They said Celeste had a really hard time getting pregnant, so he was clearly married when he raped Jane.   The idea that Perry remembered her is what I find unrealistic.   She wasn't a person.  The idea that he'd remember the face of the woman he raped 7 years ago.  Yeah.  No.  

She was cleaning and setting up the apartment.   

The question is if Ed would take Maddie back.   I think he would since I think he loves her more than what she did, but I think the keeper in this situation is totally Ed.  

This is where it didn't ring true to DV to me.   Abusers are horrible when there are no witnesses, but they tend to have an amazing amount of control in front of an audience.   The idea that Perry would beat Celeste like that in front of all her friends and the whole community is just not what happens.   I feared they were going to have what happened most in real life situations.  The woman does not want to make a scene or be embarrassed in public, so she is willing to put herself in risk to not ruin her family's reputation in the community.   

I thought it all ended the way I thought it would, but it was still a good ride.  Now I really want to read the book since I know so much more would be fleshed out in there.  

I am surprised, but not in a bad way that they had singing and didn't use Reese or Nicole's singing chops.   It was better the way they did it, so I am glad they didn't go that way just because they have two women who they know can sing.  

And yes, Kidman should win all the awards.  She was amazing in her role.   There was so much that was authentic to what she brought to that part.   I'll say that Shailene Woodley also did a great job with a difficult part,   She showed being at the brink and trying to hold it together for her kid and she was in a cast with a juggernaut of women.   She never looked out of place.   She held her own and then some.

I don't think he knew who she was at all. He was angry because he figured Celeste told everyone about her abuse. 

[shelley1234]

2 minutes ago, CofCinci said:

I don't think he knew who she was at all. He was angry because he figured Celeste told everyone about her abuse. 

 

Maybe, but it seemed like they had him look at her and a look of recognition on his face.   I hope not because that just wouldn't happen.   The women he rapes aren't people.   He doesn't know Jane from a hole in the wall.   She's not a person.   He ruined her life and she is nothing to him.  

[LaJefaza]

50 minutes ago, shelley1234 said:

 The idea that Perry remembered her is what I find unrealistic.   She wasn't a person.  The idea that he'd remember the face of the woman he raped 7 years ago.  Yeah.  No. 

I don't think that Perry remembered Jane. I think he read the scene: he saw the terror on Jane's face, the realization dawn on Maddie's, and the recognition and horror on Celeste's. I think he figured out that Jane must have been one of his 'conquests', that she had talked, and he figured that everyone there knew exactly who and what he was. The Monster. And in his perverted mind, he saw the look on Celeste's face and took it as her siding with this stranger, this outsider. That's what escalated his rage. On top of her wanting to leave him...her looking at him like that, like he was a monster...when she 'knows he wants to change', and she's 'supposed to help him' and 'they're a family and family is everything'. I think he knew the jig was up and how dare Celeste stand against him, stand for anyone else but him. How dare she blame him for what was happening with their son. How dare she disobey a direct order. That beating was to put her in her place and to let her know that all these silly little friends that he TOLD her to stay away from can't keep her away from him and they were all going to get the message, right here, right now.

I rewound about 5 times just to see Bonnie push him down those steps. BYE, Perry.

On another note, the mom who claimed that Maddie's dress was inappropriate, desperate and pathetic? Ummm...jealous much, Bitter Betty? 

Edited April 3, 2017 by LaJefaza

[eastcoastress]

5 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

They showed Perry drinking at the event. Maybe that erased some of his control.

 

2 minutes ago, shelley1234 said:

Maybe, but it still doesn't ring true to me.   Abusers often say they are out of control, however their abuse is usually nothing if not controlled.  The abusers often behave in public in such a manner that no one would know what was going on at home.  The idea that Perry would beat his wife in front of her friends and everyone.   Sure, it's good tv....but I just can't swallow it from what I know of abusers.  

I agree about abusers' level of control in certain settings, absolutely.  I did sense a shift in Perry, however, from before they left with his neutral yet menacing 'you got a message about the property' and in their car discussion. His tone changed. His gaze, usually a direct stare in one direction, started shifting about. His monotone went up and down. And, as a I noted in a previous post, I believe he stuttered. I think he was losing his control and saw in Celeste a sense of gaining control. Then combined with alcohol, that realization of unraveling, and seeing Celeste with her friends (and yes, some kind of recognition with Jane -- either knowing who she was or knowing he was exposed for just the abuse) ; I think he snapped. Very 'fuck it if I'm done so is she'. 

[Eyes High]

48 minutes ago, shelley1234 said:

I am surprised, but not in a bad way that they had singing and didn't use Reese or Nicole's singing chops.   It was better the way they did it, so I am glad they didn't go that way just because they have two women who they know can sing.  

Fun tidbit: Adam Scott and James Tupper (Ed and Nathan) were dubbed. Adam Scott even took singing lessons to prepare, but he wasn't up to snuff. Jean-Marc Vallee is hilariously blunt about this in a Vulture interview:

Quote

And the singing and the lip sync! Adam Scott and James Tupper, this is not their real voices, ‘cause they don’t know shit how to sing. They are so bad. They were so bad. So we had to hire great singers. So I went to Conor O’Brien, the singer of Villagers, to be Adam Scott’s voice. And I went to Chris Isaac to be James Tupper’s voice. But he had a schedule issue so we went with Daniel Agee.

It was Zoe Kravitz singing Bonnie's song, although her singing was dubbed in and she was lip-syncing to her own voice. 

[vixenbynight]

14 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

They showed Perry drinking at the event. Maybe that erased some of his control.

From the moment that Celeste kept insisting that she had to leave "because they had a family", all of Perry's "control" was gone. There was no way that he wasn't going to react violently towards her that night.

[stagmania]

7 hours ago, Hope said:

b) Right before Perry attacks Celeste, his eyes dart over to Jane's direction and they widen; he looks startled/shocked. Could he have possibly recognized her (I know, it's been six years), and that's what sent him over the edge? He'll be convicted and possibly jailed, so screw it? Hm.

It definitely read to me like he recognized her and realized Celeste knew about his other evil activities. That's when the last thread of his control snapped.

7 hours ago, lmsweb said:

I'm on re-watch too and wow but AS is tall. I know he's 6'4, but when he's walking up the red carpet looking for Celeste he towered over EVERYONE. Made him look even more menacing.

It was especially notable in that scene because Madeline is so short. The contrast would've been funny if that scene wasn't so horrifying.

6 hours ago, gingerella said:

does nobody else find it bizarre and incongruous that immediately after finding out that celeste's son Max was physically abusing her daughter, Renata is letting Amabella frolics on the beach with Max, her child's abuser? Yeah, this ending was just ridiculously unrealistic to me.

It seems pretty clear that time had passed, and that the mothers have decided to protect not only each other, but also their children. I'm sure Celeste is getting Max help and they've built a network of support around the boys to keep them from becoming like their father.

53 minutes ago, shelley1234 said:

This is where it didn't ring true to DV to me.   Abusers are horrible when there are no witnesses, but they tend to have an amazing amount of control in front of an audience.   The idea that Perry would beat Celeste like that in front of all her friends and the whole community is just not what happens.   I feared they were going to have what happened most in real life situations.  The woman does not want to make a scene or be embarrassed in public, so she is willing to put herself in risk to not ruin her family's reputation in the community.   

14 minutes ago, shelley1234 said:

Maybe, but it still doesn't ring true to me.   Abusers often say they are out of control, however their abuse is usually nothing if not controlled.  The abusers often behave in public in such a manner that no one would know what was going on at home.  The idea that Perry would beat his wife in front of her friends and everyone.   Sure, it's good tv....but I just can't swallow it from what I know of abusers.  

I have personal experience with abusers finally exposing themselves in front of others, so no, it's not unrealistic. You're not wrong that most abuse happens in secret and most abusers are very good at covering up their behavior, but there does sometimes come a point when everything is spiraling and they lose control. I bought this being Perry's moment; Celeste was leaving, one of his rape victims was standing in front of him, he had clearly been exposed, his life as he knew it was over. So he lashed out one last desperate time at Celeste. I don't think he believed he was going to make it out of that moment, and he was trying to bring her down with him.

[Uncle JUICE]

This episode (and I'm sure this was said already someplace, so apologies) was great for 50 minutes, and seemed to collapse under its own weight right at the very end. Everything about it was fucking phenomenal, particularly the scene where Perry and Celeste are getting ready and he finds the message. The way that was shot, with the two of them walking out, Perry in black and silhouetted at first, and then seeing them in the window as the went by, that was some real dread moments for me. I also loved the way they communicated how exposed Maddy felt in the presence of the director and his wife, and how even if they might not have been, Maddy felt like everyone at the party knew about them, how she knew Ed knew (more on her in a moment. But I absolutely hated that they picked the easiest character to kill (I know it's a book, but that doesn't really excuse it, doing it this way makes it a really, really, really fancy Lifetime movie), and more, I hated that scene at the end on the beach. Who thought that up, among those women? "Hey co-conspirators, let's all head to the beach for a half-frolic, half-contemplative look at the ocean scene! sounds great!" Not one of these women, all of whom displayed intellect and forethought throughout the series in some way, was like "Meh, can't we just do it at my house, though? If someone's watching, I mean we did just lie about Perry's death, no? Just play it safe, come over, we'll do fancy sandwiches?" Blech! Also not sure WHY DID THEY NOT TELL THE TRUTH? No one was going to get in trouble for the truth. It would have been dropped charges, or completely unconvictable in a court. "This person was beating the shit out of his wife, at the top of a set of stairs, we were all struggling to try to stop him but couldn't, then she came down the steps and pushed him. He fell down the steps, ironically tripping over the crumpled beaten body of his wife on the way down." "Case dismissed." 

The most satisfying part of this episode, and I had to explain it to my wife which made me feel smart :), was that Maddy DIDN'T get to tell Ed specifically that she cheated on him. Doing so would have only served to unburden HER. Ed already knew, without question. It's her price to pay, she has to carry it as far as she can, but it wouldn't have been right for her character to break Ed's heart further. I can't decide who's winning best actress in a limited series between her and Kidman. Kidman was already a timeless movie star (in that any decade she'd have been a movie star), Witherspoon stepped into that class (though I'm not sure, sadly, that there are a lot of roles like this for a 40 year old actress today, this was perfect for her). And Woodley really held her own game to hang in scenes with these two, it was just an outstanding series.

I'll miss it, but too neat for my taste, it made a lot of the greek chorus stuff seem like a strange device (and was easily the David E Kelliest part of the show). 

[mochamajesty]

I don't think that Perry recognized Jane - that would be unbelievable to me as well. 

I think that he recognized that this was it - there was no going back - the secret was out.

A man with nothing to lose is dangerous, indeed.

And I cannot remember:  did Perry talk to the property manager or listen to the message?  I have a fingerprint scanner on my phone and a backup password for access. Come on, Celeste! 

[jeansheridan]

4 hours ago, mochamajesty said:

Name someone else who makes sense in the final episode.

I would argue we didn't need to know who he was.  It was enough that Ziggy was exonerated and Jane was folded into the whole group like Bonnie.

Just a minor acting notebut the guy playing Gordon put his glasses on this forehead when he was trying to be threatening at Jane.   Perfect douche move.  

[eastcoastress]

7 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Maddy DIDN'T get to tell Ed specifically that she cheated on him. Doing so would have only served to unburden HER. Ed already knew, without question. It's her price to pay, she has to carry it as far as she can, but it wouldn't have been right for her character to break Ed's heart further.

This. I complained earlier that I didn't love the Maddy affair story. But it does serve the characters of Maddy, Abby, and Ed in their own ways. Ed's being the one I feel most. Last week, Maddy was breaking down and said to Ed "I did something so bad" (or to that effect) and it seemed she was about to confess. Ed reached over (despite his own anguish), touched her hand, and basically shushed her.  He knew. He knew she knew he knew. She knew he knew she knew he knew . And so forth :)  It was the unspoken that said so much (like so much in this series). Ed was being strong for both of them there and that takes quite a bit of character. He wasn't letting Maddy get her confessional; her suffering was hers to bear--which does not mitigate Ed's pain but that was his line to draw and he did with compassion as opposed to spite. 

[Llywela]

13 minutes ago, stagmania said:

I have personal experience with abusers finally exposing themselves in front of others, so no, it's not unrealistic. You're not wrong that most abuse happens in secret and most abusers are very good at covering up their behavior, but there does sometimes come a point when everything is spiraling and they lose control. I bought this being Perry's moment; Celeste was leaving, one of his rape victims was standing in front of him, he had clearly been exposed, his life as he knew it was over. So he lashed out one last desperate time at Celeste. I don't think he believed he was going to make it out of that moment, and he was trying to bring her down with him.

This. We'd already had it telegraphed in previous episodes that Perry's violence was escalating. I absolutely bought that he hit the point of no return at the party. It was all over and he knew it, and he just snapped. That to me was very real.

Kudos to everyone involved in the show - I was on pins throughout, and I'd pretty much already guessed everything that was going to happen, but I was still so very tense! I appreciated all the red herrings, too - and I know a bunch of people have complained about this or that plot point being unnecessary, like Madeline's affair, but for me the red herrings kept me doubting my own prediction of what would happen. There were so many characters on a knife edge at that party, and every one of those situations contributed to the general atmosphere of doom. I really enjoyed watching the way all the sub-plots coalesced and came together to form the seething melting pot of crises that led to those five women all being in the right place at the right time to take their part in that final struggle against Perry.

[Uncle JUICE]

1 minute ago, eastcoastress said:

This. I complained earlier that I didn't love the Maddy affair story. But it does serve the characters of Maddy, Abby, and Ed in their own ways. Ed's being the one I feel most. Last week, Maddy was breaking down and said to Ed "I did something so bad" (or to that effect) and it seemed she was about to confess. Ed reached over (despite his own anguish), touched her hand, and basically shushed her.  He knew. He knew she knew he knew. She knew he knew she knew he knew . And so forth :)  It was the unspoken that said so much (like so much in this series). Ed was being strong for both of them there and that takes quite a bit of character. He wasn't letting Maddy get her confessional; her suffering was hers to bear--which does not mitigate Ed's pain but that was his line to draw and he did with compassion as opposed to spite. 

That scene you're referring to in the last episode is the one I think Adam Scott has to submit for his emmy. There was sofuckingmuch in that scene, it was just heartbreaking for both characters. I spoke about it on another thread, but it took a unique look at a man's perspective on sexual relationships in a marriage, particularly a long term marriage. When he said "Because then it makes it harder to PRETEND," it was literally a discussion I've actually had. It was impossibly well acted. 

[dmc]

Well first, well done. I loved the series and how it wrapped up.

My thoughts on the final episode:

Is it me or do the men all seem sort of awful...Ed is the best one and even he at times I wonder about...

It's interesting to me that even though much of the episode centers around Perry's abuse of Celeste...to me the most menacing scene was Renata's husband at the cafe.

Going to be honest, I always judge women who have men fight their battles for them. Renata and Jane had supposedly worked out their issue...so why was her husband involved??? Why would he take upon himself to down there for a situation that was already resolved...

Does anyone get the sense that Ed still has a thing for Madeline...why is he constantly competing with Ed?

I liked Madeline and Abby talking and getting closer.

I also liked that the women become friends at the end...I think this is realistic...a lot of times as women we decide arbitrarily not to like someone maybe they make us insecure, maybe they threaten the life that we have carved out for ourselves and then we see that we aren't that different from them.

[dippydee]

8 hours ago, stagmania said:

That may have been my favorite moment in this whole thing. Three women who have come to know and trust each other so intimately that all it took was a few quick looks for all of them to understand exactly what was happening, and act. The more I think about it, the more I appreciate the total lack of expository dialogue in the final sequences. We're as in tune with these women as they are with each other, and we don't need it all spelled out to understand.

 I completely agree with this. I'm so glad there was no dialogue for the revelation. I think words would only have got in the way. You could understand it all from their expressions and body language alone.

7 hours ago, Artsda said:

Nathan was such an ass to Ed and the second Bonnie appeared he acted like he was innocent and it was all on Ed. Bonnie deserves better. 

I was almost hoping Ed would get a punch in there, Nathan deserves it. I don't want a season 2 because this series was such a wonderfully self contained show that it doesn't need anything else but if there was  it would be interesting Nathan deal with Madeline and Bonnie building a genuine friendship and bonding. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

ITA that Perry just lost control. Normally the face he presented to everyone else was the charming guy and loving husband, but when Celeste refused to leave with him and Renata said, "I think she just needs a minute" (in a very non-confrontational manner, I might add - she had no idea what was going on between them and was just trying to ease the tension), he snapped at Renata, something he would normally NEVER do. Perry was already afraid that Celeste had told Renata about the abuse when he saw them talking earlier at the party (which was really Celeste telling Renata that she knew Max was the one who had abused Amabella) so I would guess that when he saw Celeste with her best friend Madeline, their new friend Jane, and Renata who he knew she had spoken to earlier, he jumped to the conclusion that she had told all of them - especially when he saw Jane, Madeline, and Celeste all frantically looking at each other - and just completely lost all control.

Add to that the fact that his violence was shown to escalate over the course of the seven episodes we saw. In the first episode, it was a slap and a shove followed by sex. A few weeks after that, Celeste was covering bruises on her face with makeup. A few episodes ago, he was punching her and then shoving her face into the sofa to suffocate her while having sex. This week he had already escalated to throwing her over furniture, punching her in the gut, and kicking her while she was down.

8 hours ago, madam magpie said:

Audrey was also a badass, in the quiet way women often are. She was a great humanitarian, even though most people remember her just as a glamorous movie star. She fits the theme of power and strength under the facade.

Even before her later years as a UNICEF ambassador, she was totally badass! During World War II, she performed in secret dance shows to raise money for the resistance (while subsisting on dug up tulip bulbs to make flour for bread).

[eastcoastress]

1 minute ago, dmc said:

I also liked that the women become friends at the end...I think this is realistic...a lot of times as women we decide arbitrarily not to like someone maybe they make us insecure, maybe they threaten the life that we have carved out for ourselves and then we see that we aren't that different from them.
 

I think this is *huge* and really, a driving force in this series. In my first post I mentioned the 'insecurities yet power of these women.  They all saw traits in the other that they liked, even envied. They recognized aspects in one or all of the others that they wished they had, or could achieve, or maintain, etc... That breeds all sorts of snarky, catty behavior from grown women!  BLL does an incredible job portraying this.  I think all the women craved understanding, support, and friendship. Renata sold this particularly well (the more she ranted & raved, the more it was obvious to me). It's not a trait I am proud of but I've seen it in myself and I'm mid forties. And the risk of a show portraying this is it can come off very 'mean girl-high school', very one note.  I guess that's why I don't mind the beach scene at the end (I did chuckle at someone commenting that it seemed too Lifetime-movie-esque, and I get that, too!). But in this series it really worked for me.  As a part of that, showing that Celeste isn't sequestering herself and the boys somewhere, isolating them--which I could understand being a very real reaction--but instead showing that she is nurturing them to grow into healthy young men.  No isolation. No punishment. That takes a lot of bravery. And the acceptance  & understanding of her friends in order to do this is, well, true friendship. 

[dmc]

1 minute ago, eastcoastress said:

I think this is *huge* and really, a driving force in this series. In my first post I mentioned the 'insecurities yet power of these women.  They all saw traits in the other that they liked, even envied. They recognized aspects in one or all of the others that they wished they had, or could achieve, or maintain, etc... That breeds all sorts of snarky, catty behavior from grown women!  BLL does an incredible job portraying this.  I think all the women craved understanding, support, and friendship. Renata sold this particularly well (the more she ranted & raved, the more it was obvious to me). It's not a trait I am proud of but I've seen it in myself and I'm mid forties. And the risk of a show portraying this is it can come off very 'mean girl-high school', very one note.  I guess that's why I don't mind the beach scene at the end (I did chuckle at someone commenting that it seemed too Lifetime-movie-esque, and I get that, too!). But in this series it really worked for me.  As a part of that, showing that Celeste isn't sequestering herself and the boys somewhere, isolating them--which I could understand being a very real reaction--but instead showing that she is nurturing them to grow into healthy young men.  No isolation. No punishment. That takes a lot of bravery. And the acceptance  & understanding of her friends in order to do this is, well, true friendship. 

Agreed as a woman, that has happened to me many times.  I think the series does a good job of showing how they all feel slightly envious of each other and that fuels their own insecurities. 

[Ina123]

I think when Celeste comes in and kneels down to Max's level and holds him while whispering "it's OK" while soliciting his confession was the Emmy award scene.

[Juliegirlj]

Loved it!! Very satisfying ending, and even though it was neatly tied up, I prefer that to messy loose endings for these characters I came to love! 

I am sure Perry recognized Jane-why wouldn't he? The shock of seeing his victims together coupled with Celeste declaring that it was over finally broke Perry's sense of control. 

So great that Bonnie was telling the truth when she told Ed that everyone has baggage. 

[pbutler111]

  29 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Maddy DIDN'T get to tell Ed specifically that she cheated on him. Doing so would have only served to unburden HER. Ed already knew, without question. It's her price to pay, she has to carry it as far as she can, but it wouldn't have been right for her character to break Ed's heart further.

This. I complained earlier that I didn't love the Maddy affair story. But it does serve the characters of Maddy, Abby, and Ed in their own ways. Ed's being the one I feel most. Last week, Maddy was breaking down and said to Ed "I did something so bad" (or to that effect) and it seemed she was about to confess. Ed reached over (despite his own anguish), touched her hand, and basically shushed her.  He knew. He knew she knew he knew. She knew he knew she knew he knew . And so forth :)  It was the unspoken that said so much (like so much in this series). Ed was being strong for both of them there and that takes quite a bit of character. He wasn't letting Maddy get her confessional; her suffering was hers to bear--which does not mitigate Ed's pain but that was his line to draw and he did with compassion as opposed to spite. 

I really don't think Ed knew anything until the night of the party, when he witnessed the weird interactions between Madeline and the other guy's wife and put it all together. I think when Maddy said she'd done something wrong, Ed thought she was talking about what had gone on that night at the dinner party. If Maddy had thought Ed knew, she wouldn't have been acting so burdened by the secret the night of the party, and talking about how she hasn't had the courage to tell him.

[pbutler111]

I don't think that Perry recognized Jane - that would be unbelievable to me as well. 

I think that he recognized that this was it - there was no going back - the secret was out.

A man with nothing to lose is dangerous, indeed.

And I cannot remember:  did Perry talk to the property manager or listen to the message?  I have a fingerprint scanner on my phone and a backup password for access. Come on, Celeste! 

I thought it was clear that Perry recognized Jane. Not at first -- he was too focused on Celeste -- but you could see the realization on his face the moment he recognized her. I thought is reaction of going after Celeste in that moment was a buildup of his feeling of a loss of control over her and their entire situation, but was triggered by his recognition of Jane and mistaken thought that Celeste had brought all these women together against him.

[eastcoastress]

7 minutes ago, pbutler111 said:

I really don't think Ed knew anything until the night of the party, when he witnessed the weird interactions between Madeline and the other guy's wife and put it all together. I think when Maddy said she'd done something wrong, Ed thought she was talking about what had gone on that night at the dinner party. If Maddy had thought Ed knew, she wouldn't have been acting so burdened by the secret the night of the party, and talking about how she hasn't had the courage to tell him.

Fair enough. I believe Ed knew (or strongly suspected enough). His eyes, his expressions said more to me than words on that matter.  And also why I think that balcony scene is so important between Ed & Maddy (for Ed's character development).   I think the repeated looks & disconcerted looks at the benefit only confirmed this for Ed. 

Edited April 3, 2017 by eastcoastress

[hoodooznoodooz]

I really wanted Celeste to take an Uber to the fundraiser.

[Mindthinkr]

35 minutes ago, mochamajesty said:

I don't think that Perry recognized Jane - that would be unbelievable to me as well. 

I think that he recognized that this was it - there was no going back - the secret was out.

A man with nothing to lose is dangerous, indeed.

And I cannot remember:  did Perry talk to the property manager or listen to the message?  I have a fingerprint scanner on my phone and a backup password for access. Come on, Celeste! 

I'm glad that you have those safeguards on your phone. I don't think for a minute that Perry would have allowed Celeste to have that type of privacy. Abusers can also be control freaks and limit the access of their victims. 

[pbutler111]

This episode (and I'm sure this was said already someplace, so apologies) was great for 50 minutes, and seemed to collapse under its own weight right at the very end. Everything about it was fucking phenomenal, particularly the scene where Perry and Celeste are getting ready and he finds the message. The way that was shot, with the two of them walking out, Perry in black and silhouetted at first, and then seeing them in the window as the went by, that was some real dread moments for me. I also loved the way they communicated how exposed Maddy felt in the presence of the director and his wife, and how even if they might not have been, Maddy felt like everyone at the party knew about them, how she knew Ed knew (more on her in a moment. But I absolutely hated that they picked the easiest character to kill (I know it's a book, but that doesn't really excuse it, doing it this way makes it a really, really, really fancy Lifetime movie), and more, I hated that scene at the end on the beach. Who thought that up, among those women? "Hey co-conspirators, let's all head to the beach for a half-frolic, half-contemplative look at the ocean scene! sounds great!" Not one of these women, all of whom displayed intellect and forethought throughout the series in some way, was like "Meh, can't we just do it at my house, though? If someone's watching, I mean we did just lie about Perry's death, no? Just play it safe, come over, we'll do fancy sandwiches?" Blech! Also not sure WHY DID THEY NOT TELL THE TRUTH? No one was going to get in trouble for the truth. It would have been dropped charges, or completely unconvictable in a court. "This person was beating the shit out of his wife, at the top of a set of stairs, we were all struggling to try to stop him but couldn't, then she came down the steps and pushed him. He fell down the steps, ironically tripping over the crumpled beaten body of his wife on the way down." "Case dismissed." 

The most satisfying part of this episode, and I had to explain it to my wife which made me feel smart :), was that Maddy DIDN'T get to tell Ed specifically that she cheated on him. Doing so would have only served to unburden HER. Ed already knew, without question. It's her price to pay, she has to carry it as far as she can, but it wouldn't have been right for her character to break Ed's heart further. I can't decide who's winning best actress in a limited series between her and Kidman. Kidman was already a timeless movie star (in that any decade she'd have been a movie star), Witherspoon stepped into that class (though I'm not sure, sadly, that there are a lot of roles like this for a 40 year old actress today, this was perfect for her). And Woodley really held her own game to hang in scenes with these two, it was just an outstanding series.

I'll miss it, but too neat for my taste, it made a lot of the greek chorus stuff seem like a strange device (and was easily the David E Kelliest part of the show). 

The women are together at the beach because (1) they have nothing to hide, and, (2) they're all connected in a very visceral way. Not only did they close ranks to protect someone who was really a hero in the situation, but Nathan and Bonnie have children that share a father; Jane and Celeste have children that share a father. I don't think those are the kinds of bonds that go away.

[mochamajesty]

6 minutes ago, pbutler111 said:

I thought it was clear that Perry recognized Jane. Not at first -- he was too focused on Celeste -- but you could see the realization on his face the moment he recognized her. I thought is reaction of going after Celeste in that moment was a buildup of his feeling of a loss of control over her and their entire situation, but was triggered by his recognition of Jane and mistaken thought that Celeste had brought all these women together against him.

That's unbelievable to me.  A man like Perry doesn't see women as "Women" - he sees them as conquests, objects.  I do not believe that he would remember a woman that he raped what - six years ago?  Unless Jane was the only woman that he raped - and we are left to figure that one out for ourselves.

2 minutes ago, Mindthinkr said:

I'm glad that you have those safeguards on your phone. I don't think for a minute that Perry would have allowed Celeste to have that type of privacy. Abusers can also be control freaks and limit the access of their victims. 

Those safeguards came with my phone. I thought many phones have them? 

[Uncle JUICE]

3 minutes ago, pbutler111 said:

The women are together at the beach because (1) they have nothing to hide, and, (2) they're all connected in a very visceral way. Not only did they close ranks to protect someone who was really a hero in the situation, but Nathan and Bonnie have children that share a father; Jane and Celeste have children that share a father. I don't think those are the kinds of bonds that go away.

They SHOULDN'T have anything to hide, but they do: they lied to the police investigating a man's death, in which one of them at least played a material role. I'm not questioning their bonds, I'm questioning why they'd be out in the open like that. It just seems like there would be more "scar tissue" required to me, at least on the surface.