S01.E03: Mommie Dearest

[formerlyfreedom]

As the production of Baby Jane reaches its climax, the feud becomes physical. Also: Bette's relationship with her daughter becomes strained when she bonds with a new cast member and Joan reveals an intimate detail about her past.

 

[Emmeline]

I am new to forum and have so enjoyed everyone's comments.  During the scene where Bette Davis is pulling Joan Crawford out of the bed, I couldn't help but thinking Jessica Lang with the long wig reminded me of Caitlyn Jenner.

[voiceover]

Christ.  That last close-up of Blanche's confession!  And: "You mean, all this time, we could've been friends?"

Based on that off-screen relationship, it's as gutting a moment as when Spencer Tracy says, "...that is everything!" while gazing at Katharine Hepburn in Guess Who's Coming to Dinner?  The personal history makes both sequences almost unbearably emotional.

[Growsonwalls]

Wow. Amazing episode that really showed the humanity of both women. 

So many great zingers. Bette (about Christina): "She's adopted. She could be talented."

"Mamacita I need my water." "WHICH water?"

I also loved the contrasting parenting styles of Bette and Joan. Seems as if Bette was the more modern parent, sort of into letting kids make their own mistakes, a mix of mother and friend. Joan definitely old school. 

LOVED the dinner between Bette and Joan where Bette paused for a moment when Joan spoke about sleeping with her stepfather. 

Basically a great episode. 

[Primetimer]

As filming wraps on Baby Jane, Bette's and Joan's parenting goes under the microscope.

View the full article

[benteen]

Terrific episode with some standout acting and a couple of funny moments too.  Having just seen Baby Jane, it made it even more fun to have a frame of reference.

[Milburn Stone]

This was the first episode that actually interested me instead of just making me think I ought to be interested.

[SmithW6079]

29 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

So many great zingers.

"And it was Gloria Swanson who was robbed in 1950, not you, bitch!"

It's the inflection on "you" that made me LOL.

[merylinkid]

Good grief, if I didn't know better I would have thought those two would have killed each other on set.   

[HoboClayton]

Kind of completely turned into a comic strip this episode didn't it? 

[annzeepark914]

When Joan described her rapist stepfather as being kind to her, it made me angry that he got away with it.  No one looked out for little Joan's wellbeing.  No wonder she drank all the time.

[Arynm]

I think we need a show on Hedda Hopper and Louella Parsons. Can you imagine the gossip both those ladies kept back? I would love to know what they knew.

This was an great episode, I really liked the humanity that both ladies showed, even as they were fighting as nasty as ever to each other.

[SmithW6079]

Just now, Arynm said:

I think we need a show on Hedda Hopper and Louella Parsons. Can you imagine the gossip both those ladies kept back? I would love to know what they knew.

Back in 1985, Elizabeth Taylor and Jane Alexander made "Malice in Wonderland," a TV movie about Hedda Hopper and Louella Parsons. From what I  recall, it was a hoot.

[Valny]

I think this was my favorite of the eps so far.  It covered a lot of things and really enjoyed all the Baby Jane going's on, especially the beach scene.  I loved seeing the black and white recreation when Blanche confesses to Jane, they really got the look down, with the dark circles under the eyes and the sunk in cheekbones from not eating Jane's scary meals.
When I re-watched Baby Jane a few weeks ago, I remember how, let's say, not very good BD was. It just felt so wooden, but hey, she's wasn't an actress so what can you expect, even with BD as her mom. And I loved the looks Sarandon gave as she watched the dailies of her daughter. It really was painful.

Maybe I didn't notice as much in the previous eps, but I heard a bit more of BD "voice" in her this ep.

[ThatsDarling]

5 hours ago, SmithW6079 said:

"And it was Gloria Swanson who was robbed in 1950, not you, bitch!"

It's the inflection on "you" that made me LOL.

This line gave me life! And I have to agree with Joan's assertion here (minus the "bitch" part). Bette Davis was fabulous in All About Eve, but I've always felt Gloria Swanson deserved to win that year. 

...And this is why, no matter my quibbles with the show, I eagerly tune into Feud every week. Where else are you going to hear debates about a 67-year-old Best Actress contest?  

Edited March 20, 2017 by ThatsDarling

[TheOtherOne]

Interesting read.

Fact-Checking Feud: Bette Davis’s Thorny Relationship with Her Daughter B.D.

[GaT]

I guess they aren't going into the Crawford child abuse stuff.

[vb68]

I'm still enjoying the hell out of this. The whole thing is a hoot and catnip if you are into Hollywood history.

I watched the whole confrontation about the Hopper scoop on the Oscar fighting over twice just because the dialogue was so much fun. " Everybody knows I should already have three Oscars because I was robbed in 1950!"  "That's certainly ungracious and dismissive of Miss Judy Holiday's winsome performance! "  "She only won because that bitch Anne Baxter pushed her way into my category and we split the vote!"   The whole thing makes me giggle.

Hedda Hopper was indeed truly a viper. I loved when Bette shot her down saying Joan needed to be in an institution if she thought Hedda was her friend. Again I wondered why Louella wasn't crawling around trying to get scoops out of this, too.

Bette's reaction shots were golden, from listening to Joan talk about her stepfather to watching BD try to act.

Quote

When Joan described her rapist stepfather as being kind to her, it made me angry that he got away with it.  No one looked out for little Joan's wellbeing.  No wonder she drank all the time.

 It's an important point. Joan comes across as so twisted, but this explains so much.  I feel truly sorry for her a few times in this episode.  I couldn't tell if she truly knew how awful that story was or if she was just relishing shocking Bette with it. Either way so sad. And then how alone how alone she was and how casually cruel Mamacita was about it. "Silence is your reward."  And lastly, how Bob said Bette's acting makes her look so much younger while Joan was putting on such a production trying to look younger.  She was so out of her depth by this time in so many ways with no idea what to do.

Bette comes off better, only really reacting when provoked. I still think she was largely just trying to make the best of the situation. And even when she does draw her claws, it seems fairly tame or not as bad as I'm expecting.  Well, I was unsure about the kicking.  I didn't know if we we were just suppose to believe Joan there.  I did chuckle at her passing out Coca Cola.   And I can't imagine Joan going to bail out Victor Buono.     

The only real disappointment was no Olivia De Havilland or Joan Blondell tonight. I hope those two get worked into the plot more somehow.

Edited March 20, 2017 by vb68

[GreekGeek]

As fun as the catfights are, I like the moments where the ladies bond much better. That scene of the ladies smoking and drinking while they compare notes on their upbringing was wonderful. Loved Bette's horror and pity at hearing Joan "lost her cherry" at age 11, not to a "lucky little cub scout" but to her stepfather. How sad that she found him her only source of affection.

Hopper is awful. It's easy to blame the sexism of the times for the feud, but there were women who were complicit in it by perpetuating the stereotype that women are always looking for ways to bring each other down instead of being allies. I wonder why we haven't seen Louella Parsons. I too thought a Hedda vs. Louella miniseries would be fun. I remember the Taylor/Alexander movie, but there's enough material for a miniseries. I'd much rather see that than another Charles/Diana rehash.

Quote

I guess they aren't going into the Crawford child abuse stuff.

It's implied rather than depicted outright. Christina (and Christopher) are already adults, so we're past most of the episodes covered in Mommie Dearest. We get hints of Joan's hostility to Christina when she is reluctant to sign the card. And she is definitely a control freak in ways that go beyond strictness. When the twins ask for steaks, she orders them very rare without asking the kids how they like them. There was a clash between Joan and Christina described in the book where Christina doesn't want to eat blood rare meat.

Quote

The only real disappointment was no Olivia De Havilland or Joan Blondell tonight. I hope those two get worked into the plot more somehow.

My guess is that 

Spoiler

Olivia will play a much bigger part in upcoming episodes if they show the filming of Hush...Hush, Sweet Charlotte and her replacing Joan.

[Growsonwalls]

What I like about this episode is that it shows that Bette might have been difficult, catty, bitchy, etc. but she wasn't essentially a vicious person. When she comforted BD after BD was crying or she quietly listened to Joan's story of losing her virginity to her stepdad I got a sense of some goodness underneath the prickly exterior. 

Im really loving how nuanced both Bette and Joan were. Lange and Sarandon are both great at showing the shades of gray when they could have camped it up.

[mochamajesty]

For the first time, I believed Susan Sarandon as Bette Davis.  I also 'heard' the voice.

Poor Joan. Sexual abuse would explain a lot. She needed help, but in those days....

[SunnyBeBe]

I had no idea that Hedda Hopper was as they are portraying her.  Did she want the real truth or just some scandal?  

Those scenes of the making of Whatever Happened to Baby Jane sure did bring back some memories.  I saw that movie on tv when I was a young child. I was far too young to have been allowed to see it. It terrified me.  I have to keep reminding myself about how this feud was really about pain, not hate. 

It's nice seeing the supporting cast members familiar faces. 

[SWLinPHX]

The most satisfying episode in my opinion.  We see a human side to both as they each get a better understanding of each other as people and mothers (with Murphy's attempt to more realistically portray Joan's "Mommie Dearest" persona) as well as a peek into Buono's private life and how it was for gay men in those days, topped off with some of the best screen moments from "Baby Jane", recreated meticulously.

[SWLinPHX]

9 hours ago, SmithW6079 said:

Back in 1985, Elizabeth Taylor and Jane Alexander made "Malice in Wonderland," a TV movie about Hedda Hopper and Louella Parsons. From what I  recall, it was a hoot.

Yes, I saw it with my mom when it originally aired.  That's when I found out who the two gossip queen rivals were, as my mom explained it all.

10 hours ago, benteen said:

Terrific episode with some standout acting and a couple of funny moments too.  Having just seen Baby Jane, it made it even more fun to have a frame of reference.

Yes, it really helps if you have seen the film and how well they recreate the look and shots of each scene.

6 hours ago, GaT said:

I guess they aren't going into the Crawford child abuse stuff.

But Murphy did.  The title of this episode alone is his way of bridging what we saw in Dunaway's portrayal in "Mommie Dearest" to a more realistic and plausible scenario.  He did well to allude to so much from that film but redeem it a bit by showing it was most likely exaggerated in Christina's book and then even more so in the film adaptation with the direction and Dunaway's performance.  Also, you notice how this is the first time we see the twins in a portrayal of Crawford, and how Murphy made a point of including a line where Joan admits she was a strict disciplinarian, more so with Christina and Christopher.

Edited March 20, 2017 by SWLinPHX

[Clearlyhere]

For the first time, I believed Susan Sarandon as Bette Davis.  I also 'heard' the voice.

Poor Joan. Sexual abuse would explain a lot. She needed help, but in those days....

Sarandon's Bette is getting better and better. The first episode seemed like the warm up. The second, I started to see a portrayal of Bette. The third she is the character not Susan Sarandon playing Bette.

[Clearlyhere]

  10 hours ago, SmithW6079 said:

"And it was Gloria Swanson who was robbed in 1950, not you, bitch!"

It's the inflection on "you" that made me LOL.

This line gave me life! And I have to agree with Joan's assertion here (minus the "bitch" part). Bette Davis was fabulous in All About Eve, but I've always felt Gloria Swanson deserved to win that year. 

...And this is why, no matter my quibbles with the show, I eagerly tune into Feud every week. Where else are you going to hear debates about a 67-year-old Best Actress contest?  

Poor Gloria! That was a great moment. It also gives a nod to the theme of older actresses being treated like dirt in Hollywood. Gloria Swanson was only in her 50s when she was the over the hill Norma. In my head, I'm thinking, not all of these things came up like this, but I sure are loving it.

[Mrs. P.]

I agree that this was the strongest episode yet, but I still feel like I should like the series more than I do. Several times last night I found myself losing interest.

And after this last episode, I definitely feel that Sarandon's Davis is the superior performance. 

[Growsonwalls]

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I had no idea that Hedda Hopper was as they are portraying her.  Did she want the real truth or just some scandal?  

She was worse. She was an avid supporter of the HUAC and named names and had people blacklisted. Charlie Chaplin was denied re-entry back into the U.S. because of her claims. 

[SWLinPHX]

24 minutes ago, Clearlyhere said:

Sarandon's Bette is getting better and better. The first episode seemed like the warm up. The second, I started to see a portrayal of Bette. The third she is the character not Susan Sarandon playing Bette.

Yes, she could've played the voice up a bit more, but by not doing a Bette Davis "impression" (Peter! Peter! Peter!) she captures a more relaxed look at Davis and he demeanor off camera.  They did show Davis doing the "What a dump!" line at the request of Buono when they were running lines however.

Edited March 20, 2017 by SWLinPHX

[vb68]

Quote

They did show Davis doing the "What a dump!" line at the request of Buono when they were running lines however.

That was a good scene. She didn't mind. She knew it was part of her celebrity.  But the part that spoke volumes about Bette was her rushing out of bed to go protect Victor. She had layers for sure, but she was a very good person at heart.

Edited March 20, 2017 by vb68

[eleanorofaquitaine]

45 minutes ago, SWLinPHX said:

Yes, she could've played the voice up a bit more, but by not doing a Bette Davis "impression" (Peter! Peter! Peter!) she captures a more relaxed look at Davis and he demeanor off camera.  They did show Davis doing the "What a dump!" line at the request of Buono when they were running lines however.

Sarandon is really capturing Bette Davis's essential Yankee-ness, which isn't what people always think of when they think of Bette Davis.  They are really doing a good job capturing the differences in these two women's backgrounds, which explains some of their antagonism.  Bette is really comfortable with who she is and where she came from, where Joan Crawford seems to be constantly running away from a more chaotic upbringing.

I was really glad that they had Bette acknowledge how incredibly awful Joan's experience was.  In that way, she was probably the stand in for the audience who knew that Joan was describing abuse, but still, it was a nice moment.  And the fact that Joan's upbringing was so chaotic probably explains why she was such a disciplinarian as a parent. 

[Wings]

I like this enough to stay with it but not dazzled.  Maybe it will get more interesting, for me, now that we are past Baby Jane.  I don't like Jessica Lange in this or anything else so that is at play, too.

[ghoulina]

11 hours ago, annzeepark914 said:

When Joan described her rapist stepfather as being kind to her, it made me angry that he got away with it.  No one looked out for little Joan's wellbeing.  No wonder she drank all the time.

This was incredibly disturbing to hear about. She didn't seem to have a clue, on the surface, that there was anything really wrong with it. But deep down it had to have been killing her. I won't say that someone's past excuses bad behavior, but if there IS any merit to the claims Christina made about her, her horrible upbringing certainly explains it. 

 

5 hours ago, GreekGeek said:

When the twins ask for steaks, she orders them very rare without asking the kids how they like them. There was a clash between Joan and Christina described in the book where Christina doesn't want to eat blood rare meat.

The first thing I thought of was that bloody steak from Mommie Dearest that Christina refused to eat. 

Edited March 20, 2017 by ghoulina

[poeticlicensed]

I have seen Whatever Happened to Baby Jane dozens of times and I never made the connection that the girl next door was Bette's daughter until this series. She was not great in the role. I also had no idea that Joan tried to adopt more children. 

As far as the abuse claims, I remember when Mommie Dearest first came out and everyone was appalled. We can only guess  what all the members involved believe, but it's pretty clear that Joan was overbearing and an alcoholic, if not abusive. But we also need to remember that it was a very different time then, and rearing children was not viewed in the way it is now. 

As for the episode, I loved it. The set must have been crazypants with those two. Hedda Hopper's hydrangea hat needs it's own talk show and an emmy. 

[Growsonwalls]

6 minutes ago, poeticlicensed said:

I have seen Whatever Happened to Baby Jane dozens of times and I never made the connection that the girl next door was Bette's daughter until this series. She was not great in the role. I also had no idea that Joan tried to adopt more children. 

As far as the abuse claims, I remember when Mommie Dearest first came out and everyone was appalled. We can only guess  what all the members involved believe, but it's pretty clear that Joan was overbearing and an alcoholic, if not abusive. But we also need to remember that it was a very different time then, and rearing children was not viewed in the way it is now. 

As for the episode, I loved it. The set must have been crazypants with those two. Hedda Hopper's hydrangea hat needs it's own talk show and an emmy. 

I also think the episode did a good job in showing the results of both styles of parenting. Bette tries to be the nurturing, "cool" mom but BD is rather bratty and entitled. Joan makes the twins wearing matching bows and dresses and is incredibly strict with them, but they're also more well-behaved. Moms today are still debating this strict. vs. nurturing approach everywhere. 

[BingeyKohan]

I loved how the restaurant scene with the Crawford ("Crawfish") household was paced: I believe Joan intended all along to sign Christina's card only not in front of the twins - she waited until she'd sent them to the bathroom to remove their hair bows. For all they knew she'd kept the hard line and the conditionality of Christina earning good reviews before she earned recognition from her mother. It also supports the idea of how easily someone can be misunderstood, and participate in their own misconceptions. I'll miss being "on set" with these women but so glad we are not even halfway through the run yet.

[enoughcats]

If the series were to stop right now, who do you think would get the nomination for THE EMMY for best Actress?  

Can we imagine a cat fight on top of a cat fight as in history repeating itself in a somewhat contorted way?

[iMonrey]

I'm confused. The last episode ended with a big fight between Bette and her daughter, and Bette ordering her daughter back to the East Coast. This week there's no mention of it and BD is still hanging around the set. WTF? Did I miss something?

Quote

If the series were to stop right now, who do you think would get the nomination for THE EMMY for best Actr

I think both will be nominated for Lead Actress in a Limited Series or TV Movie, and cancel each other out like Anne Baxter and Bette Davis in 1950.

Seriously, I think both are good but maybe not the greatest. I still see Sarandon more than I see Bette Davis and her performance has been uneven. And I see Lange playing a character like she played on American Horror Story. Good, but not quite capturing Joan Crawford.

[CatMomma]

52 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

This was incredibly disturbing to hear about. She didn't seem to have a clue, on the surface, that there was anything really wrong with it. But deep down it had to have been killing her. I won't say that someone's past excuses bad behavior, but if there IS any merit to the claims Christina made about her, her horrible upbringing certainly explains it. 

 

The first thing I thought of was that bloody steak from Mommie Dearest that Christina refused to eat. 

This is such a typical response to sexual abuse in children.  If you read about the children who were abused in the Catholic church, many believed it wasn't abuse because they felt pleasure, even while feeling violated. I have no doubt that Joan felt like she initiated the abuse because her mother and stepfather told her that it was her fault. Plus, there was probably some biological reaction that felt pleasurable, so how could it be wrong?  That conversation was pitch perfect when it comes to children of sexual abuse. Well done, show.

That being said, I just can't warm up to Joan.  I think being abandoned by her mother and the abuse did a real number on her, but it seems like every time Bette tries to reach out to her, she lashes out.  It's sad, but I can now see the woman described in "Mommie Dearest". She seems to see any kindness as a form of manipulation. She was probably exhausting to be around.

[meep.meep]

8 hours ago, GaT said:

I guess they aren't going into the Crawford child abuse stuff.

Do those matching hair bows count?

I'm sorry but this just is limping along.  Every week I forget that it's going to be on.  They are all trying their best, but it's not compelling the way the People vs OJ was.    And, as a single working mother myself, I should have more sympathy, but I just can't with most of this.

[psychoticstate]

This episode was incredibly well done.  I felt tremendous sympathy for both Bette and Joan.  So unfortunate that their "cease fire" didn't last long, thanks primarily to outside forces.  Both ladies were incredibly competitive in general and most certainly with each other.  It's sad they couldn't connect on their common ground.

Their drink conversation was sad on so many levels.  We got to see the glaring difference between Bette's close relationship with her mother, her only female friend, and Joan's cold relationship, which probably made her grateful to receive the "affection" she got from her stepfather.  It's true that Joan never saw herself as a victim of sexual assault or rape; she was that starved for affection and acceptance.  It's been reported too that this is what really drove a wedge between Joan and her mother; her mother felt that Joan seduced her stepfather and was therefore competition. 

Seeing Bette calling Margo and Joan wandering into the twins' room and touching their toys was painful.  Even with as many contacts as both had, they were both so incredibly lonely. 

I could actually see Joan feeling empathy for Victor Buono; one of Joan's best and longest lasting friends was William Haines.  Haines started as an actor at MGM, like Joan, and was squeezed out when he refused to enter into a fake marriage in order to promote himself as a heterosexual.  He left acting and began doing interior design, with Joan one of his first clients.  He remained with his partner, Jimmy Shields, until his death in 1973.  Joan often said Billy and Jimmy had the happiest marriage in Hollywood.   So I do think Joan would have helped VB out.   It's normal that VB would have had a closer on-set relationship with Bette as his scenes were with her. 

[annzeepark914]

4 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I had no idea that Hedda Hopper was as they are portraying her.  Did she want the real truth or just some scandal?  

 

Such a nasty person.  She was an informant to the House Unamerican Activities Committee.  Watch the movie, Trumbo (starring the wonderful Bryan Cranston) and you'll see the damage she and other lowlifes like her did to their fellow Americans.  I think a lot of people think of big hats and silly celeb gossip when they think of Hopper but she was pure evil in reality.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

31 minutes ago, CatMomma said:

This is such a typical response to sexual abuse in children.  If you read about the children who were abused in the Catholic church, many believed it wasn't abuse because they felt pleasure, even while feeling violated. I have no doubt that Joan felt like she initiated the abuse because her mother and stepfather told her that it was her fault. Plus, there was probably some biological reaction that felt pleasurable, so how could it be wrong?  That conversation was pitch perfect when it comes to children of sexual abuse. Well done, show.

That being said, I just can't warm up to Joan.  I think being abandoned by her mother and the abuse did a real number on her, but it seems like every time Bette tries to reach out to her, she lashes out.  It's sad, but I can now see the woman described in "Mommie Dearest". She seems to see any kindness as a form of manipulation. She was probably exhausting to be around.

Most clergy sexual abuse survivors knew they were suffering abuse, it was just difficult getting anyone - including their parents - to pay attention to their claims because the power structures protected the Church. That being said, it is the case that a lot of survivors of sexual assault will blame themselves.  I am not even sure that Joan was saying she got any pleasure out the abuse, but instead, was getting the attention that she craved and that her mother withheld.

[CatMomma]

47 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

Most clergy sexual abuse survivors knew they were suffering abuse, it was just difficult getting anyone - including their parents - to pay attention to their claims because the power structures protected the Church. That being said, it is the case that a lot of survivors of sexual assault will blame themselves.  I am not even sure that Joan was saying she got any pleasure out the abuse, but instead, was getting the attention that she craved and that her mother withheld.

Many were conflicted because they felt pleasure.

I don't want to get into it too much, but a child who was stimulated is no more or less abused. While Joan never said explicitly that she felt sexually aroused, I have no problem believing that she may have been. Who really cares? She was victimized. We see the scene differently. Either way, she was an abuse survivor.

http://kalimunro.com/wp/articles-info/sexual-emotional-abuse/sexual-feelings-during-abuse

[eleanorofaquitaine]

5 minutes ago, CatMomma said:

Many were conflicted because they felt pleasure.

I don't want to get into it too much, but a child who was stimulated is no more or less abused. While Joan never said explicitly that she felt sexually aroused, I have no problem believing that she may have been. Who really cares? She was victimized. We see the scene differently. Either way, she was an abuse survivor.

http://kalimunro.com/wp/articles-info/sexual-emotional-abuse/sexual-feelings-during-abuse

I worked a lot with survivors with clergy sexual abuse - I know very well the conflicting feelings that they had about their abuse.  And I certainly wasn't claiming that a child who experiences physical pleasure is not abused.  Abuse is abuse, and Joan Crawford was most certainly the subject of sexual assault (as I made clear in the very post you are quoting).  I was merely saying that in the scene, Joan didn't indicate that she felt physical pleasure, she indicated that she felt that she was receiving attention, which is why she didn't define it as abuse.  (But Bette rightly did because, I will repeat, Joan Crawford was sexually abused).

Edited March 20, 2017 by eleanorofaquitaine

[bmoore4026]

I don't know what to make of Joan Crawford.  She treats Cathy and Cindy as dolls but, at the same time, is desperately lonely for them.  That, coupled with Christina Crawford's infamous book and how much of it maybe true or maybe made up or maybe embellished, makes me so conflicted.  My heart did break for her.

Speaking of Cathy and Cindy, is the first we've seen them portrayed in anything?

Bette Davis wanting to reach out to her "mentally retarded" daughter (obviously, now she'd be labelled as extremely autistic) was also heartbreaking.  She left the bulk of her estate to her son and left out Margot due to the disability, but did she leave a stipulation to her son to take care of his twin sister?

Another thing that was sad was Joan's story about losing her virginity to her stepfather at eleven.  Even Bette was like "That's disgusting".

In the other sad category was Victor Buono getting arrested in that raid; cops did these whenever they were bored.  But Bette Davis talking the police into letting him go was awesome.  Their budding friendship was also nice to watch.  Did they remain close friends?

On a related note, who was the super cute Greaser gay prostitute?

Speaking of Bette's relationship with Victor, I have a feeling this is what pushed her into becoming a born again Christian.  One that preaches that the Anti-Christ will be a homosexual.  She's jealous that her mother got on better with a gay man than her.  I know I'm speculating and don't know what's really going on in her mind, but I don't think I'm far off.

Speaking of evil and spiteful, Jack Warner is the true Anti-Christ and Hedda Hopper is the Whore of Babylon.  Bette saying she can see right through her (and, no doubt, always had) was more than cathartic.

Now for the awesome.

Joan saying Gloria Swanson was robbed of that Oscar and not Joan, because she was absolutely right.

Bette putting that Coca-Cola cooler right next to the Pepsi machine and then standing in Joan's eyeline while drinking the Coke.

Joan weighing her self down to spite Bette in that dragging scene.

Bette kicking Joan in the head.

Kiernan Shipka having to deliberately act bad.  That is probably the most difficult thing an actor to do.  Another awesome thing was her channeling Betty Draper for expert smoking.

I'm also conflicted on who should win Best Supporting Actress awards.  Thandie Newton has been phenomenal on Westworld, but Jackie Hoffman is knocking it out of the park as Mamacita.  Her "Which water" delivery was perfect.

Edited March 21, 2017 by bmoore4026
Because it's Cindy, not Cassie. And it's Jackie Hoffman as Mamacita.

[CatMomma]

21 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

I worked a lot with survivors with clergy sexual abuse - I know very well the conflicting feelings that they had about their abuse.  And I certainly wasn't claiming that a child who experiences physical pleasure is not abused.  Abuse is abuse, and Joan Crawford was most certainly the subject of sexual assault (as I made clear in the very post you are quoting).  I was merely saying that in the scene, Joan didn't indicate that she felt physical pleasure, she indicated that she felt that she was receiving attention, which is why she didn't define it as abuse.  (But Bette rightly did because, I will repeat, Joan Crawford was sexually abused).

I am sorry if you feel I was questioning your take on abuse.  I'm a speech therapist who also works with children of abuse, so if I seemed angry, it is on me. We both agree that Joan was sexually abused, we just read the scene differently from our own perspectives.

ETA: Can we both agree that the show did a great job of showing the psychology of an abuse survivor? 

Edited March 20, 2017 by CatMomma

[iMonrey]

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They are all trying their best, but it's not compelling the way the People vs OJ was. 

Well it's certainly a different animal than People VS. OJ. Thematically it's more along the lines of Murphy's American Horror Story series. It can't help being somewhat campy given the main characters and the time period. But personally, I still think it's compelling. No, not in the same way as People VS. OJ but in a different way.

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I don't know what to make of Joan Crawford.  She treats Cathy and Cassie as dolls but, at the same time, is desperately lonely for them.  That, coupled with Christina Crawford's infamous book and how much of it maybe true or maybe made up or maybe embellished, makes me so conflicted.

I think that's kind of the point, and it's possible to pity and loathe someone at the same time. We know that at least some of what Christina Crawford wrote about has been corroborated. We know that Crawford was an alcoholic. I think it's safe to say she was a pretty crappy parent in a lot of ways. That doesn't mean you can't feel for what she had to go through early in her life. On the other hand, it's harder to feel sorry for her loneliness when she's probably the reason for it. 

[Evagirl]

I remember reading several years ago that Crawford had a daughter by Clark Gable and that the little girl looked so much like him, she had her ears surgically pinned back a little bit.  I don't know if it's true or not.  But I didn't read it in a tabloid.  

[Growsonwalls]

Just now, Evagirl said:

I remember reading several years ago that Crawford had a daughter by Clark Gable and that the little girl looked so much like him, she had her ears surgically pinned back a little bit.  I don't know if it's true or not.  But I didn't read it in a tabloid.  

That was Loretta Young, who can also enter the sweepstakes for Golden Age of Bad Parenting. I mean at least she re-adopted Judy, but lying to her for life? That's cold.

I remember an interview with Judy Lewis when she said that she was talking to a friend of hers who was adopted and the friend observed, "You know, I'm adopted and you're adopted but you look just like your adopted mother."