S21.E12: The Final Rose/S21.E13: After the Final Rose

[Superpole2000]

5 minutes ago, yorklee2 said:

I was spoiled before the season even started and still I think it was obvious early on that she was the one. As a viewer I think she presented well initially in both looks and personality but that went down gradually with each episode. I think there was maybe a small percentage (obviously unspoiled) who thought Raven might win but they were in the minority. Or at least on this forum. I don't do a lot of social media. But as you said for the ones who were unspoiled it still should have been obvious. It was hard at the end not to inadvertently spill the beans. So much that I had to catch myself and remember to say, "if she wins".

This is a sore spot for me. I know most people on this forum (and others) mean well, but many people's opinions of who is going to win are coloured by the opinions of other people that they have read and listened to elsewhere. And quite often, those other people are spoiled. So you get a ton of people writing about the obvious outcome, and then it snowballs into everyone believing it's obvious, even when it isn't.

I watched all of last night's episode thinking Vanessa would win, but only because I kept reading it on this forum and hearing it on podcasts. Her cold demeanour and the fact that she lives in another country really should have tipped us off that she wasn't an obvious choice. Even watching last night, everything seemed so much more fun and enjoyable with Raven, but we all knew he wasn't going to pick Raven because we didn't read anyone who said he would.

Damn spoilers. I wish they would air this show right after filming it.

[Adeejay]

On ‎3‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 3:31 AM, seasick said:

Kaitlyn, Andi and Deanna were my three least Fave's Bachette's.

Mine too; plus Ali.  The only two Bachelorettes I could tolerate, if I had to, are Jillian and Desiree. 

Based on her demeanor on the ATFR show, I believe Vanessa is upset that Nick most likely slept with Raven and Rachel.  It never ceases to amaze me how the show's premise doesn't seem to be an issue while they are filming, but then after, the "winner" has a startling realization.  I would bet good money that this is the number one reason why most of these relationship do not work out.   

Edited March 18, 2017 by Adeejay

[GracieK]

3 minutes ago, Adeejay said:

Mine too; plus Ali.  The only two Bachelorettes I could tolerate, if I had to are Jillian and Desiree. 

Based on her demeanor on the ATFR show, I believe Vanessa is upset that Nick most likely slept with Raven and Rachel.  It never ceases to amaze me how the show's premise doesn't seem to be an issue while they are filming, but then after, the "winner" has a startling realization.  I would bet good money that this is the number one reason why most of these relationship do not work out.   

I was a little surprised that the fantasy suite stuff wasn't more of a topic especially considering Nick's ATFR with Andi.  I know Chris mentioned that they were going to discuss it with regards to Raven but then it never came up.  I wonder if Nick begged for Chris' mercy and asked him not to discuss it. 

[Artsda]

8 hours ago, DEL901 said:

 

And I always hate when couples talk about distance stopping them from spending time together.  They could find a way... if they wanted.  My exhibit A is always Ashley and JP.  They used to have dinner together almost every night. 

In the E! interview they did say they snuck around and did the locked in a safe house thing.   They also seemed really afraid of leaking the secret, Nick mentioned that being the most stressful. He mentioned being scared of accidentally posting the wrong picture from his phone.

I'm thinking that post-Kaitlyn seasons are A LOT more strict on them not being caught doing something stupid to spoil the season.

 

Quote

Based on her demeanor on the ATFR show, I believe Vanessa is upset that Nick most likely slept with Raven and Rachel. 

That's possible, especially since she had never seen the show before. She could be so clueless and found out a lot that night.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Artsda

[slowpoked]

7 minutes ago, Adeejay said:

Mine too; plus Ali.  The only two Bachelorettes I could tolerate, if I had to are Jillian and Desiree. 

Based on her demeanor on the ATFR show, I believe Vanessa is upset that Nick most likely slept with Raven and Rachel.  It never ceases to amaze me how the show's premise doesn't seem to be an issue while they are filming, but then after, the "winner" has a startling realization.  I would bet good money that this is the number one reason why most of these relationship do not work out.   

FWIW, RS claims that he got info from a reader who overheard Jared Haibon and Nick talking over lunch that Nick didn't sleep with Raven. With Rachel, who knows? I'm inclined to think no, though.

[yorklee2]

3 hours ago, Superpole2000 said:

This is a sore spot for me. I know most people on this forum (and others) mean well, but many people's opinions of who is going to win are coloured by the opinions of other people that they have read and listened to elsewhere. And quite often, those other people are spoiled. So you get a ton of people writing about the obvious outcome, and then it snowballs into everyone believing it's obvious, even when it isn't.

I watched all of last night's episode thinking Vanessa would win, but only because I kept reading it on this forum and hearing it on podcasts. Her cold demeanour and the fact that she lives in another country really should have tipped us off that she wasn't an obvious choice. Even watching last night, everything seemed so much more fun and enjoyable with Raven, but we all knew he wasn't going to pick Raven because we didn't read anyone who said he would.

Damn spoilers. I wish they would air this show right after filming it.

We have Reality Steve to thank for this. It used to bother me to no end that someone could do this and take the suspense and fun away of seeing who the lead picks. It still does to a large degree but what can you do. I ultimately fell to the temptation. I try not to color my posts with any clear indication of the winner but as stated before this season was so obvious you didn't need to be spoiled.

But yeah I wish they could find a way to shut RS down though that's doubtful.

Edited March 15, 2017 by yorklee2

[yorklee2]

3 hours ago, slowpoked said:

The reason I was skeptical about Raven's "broken heart" was because it seemed like the producer drove them for hours and hours until she finally broke down. And even when she was getting her spiel about recovering from a broken heart, it was all in general terms. She didn't reference Nick specifically. About how it hurt that Nick didn't choose her. So that's why it felt like her broken heart speech was manipulated out of her, and not something that she genuinely felt at that momeny. But yes, maybe it did take awhile to process, and so her reaction was like that.

It's ok your entitled to your opinion and I didn't see your post so I wasn't responding to it any way. But her speech probably was meant in general. Like I said she was in the "bubble love" that this show so often produces. Doesn't mean she wasn't genuinely hurt by the rejection though. I think the tears were genuine but why did you get the perception that they drove around for hours and hours? I didn't notice any thing like that at all. Maybe I missed something.

ETA: Sorry I guess you were talking about the dry eyes/high five comment. She didn't seem to have any tears at the time he first told her I agree, but later in the limo I definitely saw tears and IMO they were genuine.

Edited March 15, 2017 by yorklee2

[Rubyslippahz]

I agree with those noting that it is weird that fantasy suites were not discussed last night especially as Chris teased talking about Raven's at the top of ATFR.   But given the clearly ill vibes with N and V that was probably for the best.  Nick looked scared to death when Raven was on stage with him and terrified to show nary a flicker of affection.  He could have been afraid that Vanessa's huge family group was going to rise en masse from the audience with torches if he did so.   

 

I wonder why the hell V went on the Bachelor--- because she seemed massively I'll prepared to deal with the realities of a Bachelor season.    If you are deeply haunted by not feeling like you are 'the only special person in the world'  (she actually said that during a date near the end) this is not your jam.  Starting in St Thomas she seemed frankly pissed that she was on the Bachelor at all, and remember after her hometown date she was crying to the camera about him possibly having feelings for the other women as if the thought had never occurred to her.   Duh.   Well now Raven (who came off the season smelling like a rose) gets BIP and Rachel is the 'Ette -and Vanessa has the prize of an already fraught relationship with Nick.  

[Nedsdag]

5 hours ago, slowpoked said:

Yeah, I think that's it. While JoJo and Jordan overcompensated last season on their AFTR (because of the bad press with his brother and ex-gf), Nick and Vanessa totally went the other way. It actually reminded me of the AFTR of Brad and Emily.

EDIT: Apparently, Emily herself thought of the same thing:

Yep! That's who I thought of when I saw ATFR. When Emily stated that she "poked the bear," everyone knew their relationship was on fumes. Both Nick and Vanessa have issues, and I don't think either of them will be able to be emotional crutch that is needed in this relationship.

I knew they would fix Rachel's weave, but I am glad they left her teeth alone. I remember what happened with Emily's veneers and they were blinding to say the least.

Raven IMHO was the happiest runner up I have ever seen in all of the years of watching ATFR. She's ready to move on, but I'm not so sure if BIP is the best venue for her. 

So the Vegas Twins get their own post-Bachelor show like Ben did? I guess Corinne and Raquel will be next. 

Kudos to the bald woman in the audience for ATFR. Next to Rachel, she was the most memorable person on last night's show.

[PetuniaP]

2 hours ago, Superpole2000 said:

This is a sore spot for me. I know most people on this forum (and others) mean well, but many people's opinions of who is going to win are coloured by the opinions of other people that they have read and listened to elsewhere. And quite often, those other people are spoiled. So you get a ton of people writing about the obvious outcome, and then it snowballs into everyone believing it's obvious, even when it isn't.

 

1

That's why I stay far away from message boards until the very end. I hate spoilers and I really can't abide people who pretend they have an "opinion" when all they did was read Reality Steve. But even a blind person could see he was going to pick Vanessa from pretty much their first date so I actually contemplated reading spoilers before the final show. 

Ah Nick, I literally could not have been more excited when you were chosen as the Bachelor. You were infamous for bringing passion, intensity, romance and downright hotness to your relationships on this show. What the hell happened?! What a total disappointment and the more it's sinking in that the season I anticipated more than almost any other is already over and didn't even come close to fulfilling its' promise, the more annoyed I get. I'm probably out on DwTS after this...not really looking forward to watching a henpecked Nick pretend to enjoy being on the show all while he is getting yelled at by Vanessa for every errant touch during dance rehearsals with Peta. 

Edited March 15, 2017 by PetuniaP

[zxy556575]

I miss the good old days when Fleiss made an effort to cast bachelors who were financially stable (or at least employed).

[ribboninthesky1]

2 hours ago, hyacinth said:

He wore a ski cap with a carefully chosen inch or two of curly bangs RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF HIS FOREHEAD, as if he thought it looked hot.  (It was not.)  

Right???? I saw that.  And hey, for all of my eye-rolling about and side-eyeing of Nick (I shall never believe there was a legitimate love story with Vanessa after what I saw in the last 2 episodes), I thought he was reasonably fashionable most of the time.  But the cap with frizzy hair sticking out was a no go. 

1 hour ago, Superpole2000 said:

I watched all of last night's episode thinking Vanessa would win, but only because I kept reading it on this forum and hearing it on podcasts. Her cold demeanour and the fact that she lives in another country really should have tipped us off that she wasn't an obvious choice. Even watching last night, everything seemed so much more fun and enjoyable with Raven, but we all knew he wasn't going to pick Raven because we didn't read anyone who said he would.

I don't know about other social media, because like yorklee2 I don't follow it.  But I think that here, particularly among TWoP vets, the old "depict the F1 as angsty as possible vs the one NOT chosen as sweet, fun, and easy to be around" misdirection doesn't work anymore, even among the unspoiled.  I remember this show pulling that mess as far back as Aaron Buerge's season (way back in 2002!), and I fell for it back then. Heck, I even fell for it during Brad 2.0's season with Emily and Chantal.  I can't believe the show would bother dipping into that well yet again.  Which is why I'm convinced there wasn't much else to show.  Of course, I also think that Nick and Vanessa would already be over if it was the early Bachelor years. 

1 hour ago, GracieK said:

I was a little surprised that the fantasy suite stuff wasn't more of a topic especially considering Nick's ATFR with Andi.

I wasn't.  The pettyfer in me believes that the clear omission of this topic implies that there was non-Vanessa sexy times afoot. 

Quote

Glad you brought this up.  I'm no Vanessa fan but Nick did totally refuse to reassure Vanessa and he was very dismissive of her feelings, cutting her off and chattering about himself and his own feelings.   In fact I think he went overboard in making her feel  as 'un-special' as he could and he did seem to get some pleasure out of it.  (I quoted the remark "the week's not over yet" to which I think I would have stood right up and walked.)  I'm sure she's kicking herself now for not doing so.

@seasick, I agree it was so strange.  I think it was unwise of Vanessa to try and force his hand, but she was who she's been from the start.  Nick was clearly over it and her, and made that entire conversation about him and his feelings. On top of that, it's been over three months since end-of-filming, and they still haven't worked out the relocation thing? I don't expect Vanessa to have moved, but I didn't hear a definitive "I'm moving/plan to move, it's just a matter of paperwork" either.  Not that I blame her.  Didn't hear Nick declare anything about Montreal relocation plans after DWTS, either. So...yeah.       

Edited March 15, 2017 by ribboninthesky1

[JenMcSnark]

YMMV but after watching everything and Jimmy Kimmel, I think Vanessa may be the famewhore of the family.  I know someone posted that she has a couple "acting" credits to her name, but I didn't think it really meant much.  Now I kind of do think she feels she's a special snowflake who just wanted to be on tv and assumed whoever the bachelor was would just fall for her beautiful self.

She seemed to interact way more on the Kimmel show and there were several times in the last few episodes that I just felt like she was deliberately "acting" in Nick's story.  By that I mean, her questions/statements to his parents, which I thought were kind of weird and obtuse considering that they had been through this so much. And she just seemed "on" as soon as she walked in the door of his family home.  

And on the episode where they talked about moving - the whole I'm a proud American/Canadian - I felt like she was just arguing for arguments sake...possibly to get more screen time.

But I hope they get married and live happily ever after. Oh, and stay off TV (after DWTS) and prove me wrong.  

[violet and green]

She kind of looks like Madeleine Stowe back in the day, plus when she does the huge grin like Notting Hill era Julia Roberts, and she does the glow for the cameras quite well, so I expect Vanessa does imagine this gig could open doors for her in LA - and certainly more so than working with her students in Montreal...

I just feel so cheated! Robbed! And I had no investment in Nick's search for true love and happy marriage at all!

Had to get it out of my system so reviewed the footage. It is worth rewatching just to check out the lipstick colour-change touch-ups in that proposal scene, I will say. (She'll never make it in Hollywood! So much dewy bad acting.) Plus there is a goodly amount of pearly rose transfer to Nick's lips at one point, which looks really funny as he lisps happily through his beard, hehehe.

[Wandering Snark]

25 minutes ago, JenMcSnark said:

Now I kind of do think she feels she's a special snowflake who just wanted to be on tv and assumed whoever the bachelor was would just fall for her beautiful self.

I can only think of this picture Nick posted to his feed as a little too close to the actual truth, because as they say in every joke is a little truth. She looks so "It's all about me" (I didn't figure out the weird ring-displaying pose for a second) and he looks so "I'm just over this". Heh.

[JenMcSnark]

21 minutes ago, Wandering Snark said:

I can only think of this picture Nick posted to his feed as a little too close to the actual truth, because as they say in every joke is a little truth. She looks so "It's all about me" (I didn't figure out the weird ring-displaying pose for a second) and he looks so "I'm just over this". Heh.

Exactly.  What a weird pose.  lol

[Artsda]

It was a series of 5 selfie poses. It was just them having photobooth style fun. lol

https://www.instagram.com/p/BRmlWegBMd-/?taken-by=nickviall

[yorklee2]

3 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Well then, the fake must be pretty good and that's the one all my friends would have seen, so I think I would put all my sentimental feelings on that one and sell the real one the minute I got it and use the money for a great second anniversary present.  Two years into marriage, things like a down payment on a house because a baby is coming probably mean more to many women than a bit of bling. 

Totally agree with this. I never wanted a big splashy wedding either. Put that money to good use elsewhere.

[waving feather]

Vanessa is Hollywood pretty enough to be an actress (if she can act). I'm kind of hoping she would succeed in out famewhoring Nick. That would be classic.

[catrice2]

That is one reason I don't think they will break up. I think they both are all about the big television wedding.  Nick probably think it is owed to him after all his years of service.  I think Lauren from last season would also want that so she is probably doing whatever she can to make it work with Ben.  It is hard to take anyone in the franchise seriously once you see all the freebies, attention and money they get from shilling.  No way  after learning about that can the cynical side of me ever believe that those things do not play into it and that people are really there "looking for love."  Maybe it was more authentic in the beginning before social media. Now everyone is trying to build a brand or increase their social media numbers (Corinne) and there is much more at stake. 

Everyone keeps saying it was obvious that Nick wanted Vanessa...it was just as obvious to me that most of the girls were not that taken with Nick.  There were a couple that tried to dramatic upon exit, but they were not that broken up.  I think they liked hanging out with each other.  For some, like Rachel and possibly Corinne, I think competitiveness took over and they made themselves believe that their desire to "win" was based on feelings for Nick. I don't doubt that something develops in that crazy environment, but each said they were competitive and I think it was more about that than wanting to be with Nick.  I noted that all of the women (that I saw at least) appeared to be happy to have moved on.  The only two making comments about not having a chance, and I don't understand was the Danielle girl and Kristina.....and I never got the impression that Nick was seriously interested in either  of them.  In fact, I think he just kept people on because he had to and many could have been interchangeable.  It was clear he had no romantic interest in Alexis, but she stayed around over others. 

[Former Nun]

8 hours ago, violet and green said:

what a dick he is, to not know by age 36 to pick the woman he has fun with.

He doesn't want a woman.  He wants a career in showbiz...any level by any means.

[Former Nun]

3 hours ago, Lord Donia said:

I miss the good old days when Fleiss made an effort to cast bachelors who were financially stable (or at least employed).

Now many have portfolios (head shots, etc.) agents/agencies, PR people, and stylists.

[ByTor]

7 hours ago, violet and green said:

She kind of looks like Madeleine Stowe back in the day

I mentioned this in the 1st or 2nd episode thread...I'm glad someone else sees the resemblance!

6 hours ago, catrice2 said:

For some, like Rachel and possibly Corinne, I think competitiveness took over and they made themselves believe that their desire to "win" was based on feelings for Nick.

Couldn't agree more, I think this happens a lot.

[b2H]

10 hours ago, PetuniaP said:

But even a blind person could see he was going to pick Vanessa from pretty much their first date so I actually contemplated reading spoilers before the final show.

My husband watched the entire season and was still shocked that Nick picked Vanessa.  He obviously knew that Rachel had already been tapped for next season, so the final four/three wasn't a real contest for him, but he was convinced (because I didn't spoil him or give him any indications of the outcome) that Vanessa was going home at some point or another, not to be the F1.

[allicatexp]

12 hours ago, Superpole2000 said:

This is a sore spot for me. I know most people on this forum (and others) mean well, but many people's opinions of who is going to win are coloured by the opinions of other people that they have read and listened to elsewhere. And quite often, those other people are spoiled. So you get a ton of people writing about the obvious outcome, and then it snowballs into everyone believing it's obvious, even when it isn't.

I watched all of last night's episode thinking Vanessa would win, but only because I kept reading it on this forum and hearing it on podcasts. Her cold demeanour and the fact that she lives in another country really should have tipped us off that she wasn't an obvious choice. Even watching last night, everything seemed so much more fun and enjoyable with Raven, but we all knew he wasn't going to pick Raven because we didn't read anyone who said he would.

Damn spoilers. I wish they would air this show right after filming it.

See I love watching this show knowing the outcome.  It makes me really look closely at how it is edited and really shows you how easily the producers can manipulate the audience.

[Jax7917]

does Neil Lane have any rings that are NOT gaudy? Every season, he shows the same exact rings to the lead. They all look exactly the same.

[fib]

I have SO MANY THOUGHTS!

Vanessa is stunning - I think the one thing that I am amazed by is how good she looks on camera. Her skin always appears flawless and hermakeup looks perfect and practically invisible. I can't tell if it's because she is wearing none or just really really good at putting it on.  Vanessa reminds me soooo much physically of this woman I used to work with (and hated) that all I see is the bitchiness. 

Raven, in comparison, has a trickier skin tone to deal with, but he makeup looked so "caked on" for the ATFR. 

Raven, bless her, I finally figured out what bugs me about her face:  (and I feel awful saying this because I really like her and this is mean) It looks a little like her face has been ever so slightly warped by a funhouse mirror so that her forehead and chin are bigger than they should be and her eyes/nose/mouth are kinda shrunken and sunken.  SHe seems to try to manipulate this by positioning her head to camouflage it, butthe close camera angles on ATFR seemed to highlight it more. 

I totally agree with Emily Maynard - there is trouble in Nick/Vanessa world, though Im not sure it is as bad yet with Nick and Vanessa as it was with Emily/Brad.  And I think the main difference is that Nick and Vanessa seem to like the struggle while Em/Brad seemed to like the control that caused the struggle.  They might just make it.  I don't know. 

I think Nick was toting Rachel along for a long time knowing she was a) awesome and b)not his choice.  I think it was in ST Thomas  that he said something along the lines of, "You never know, Something good could come of this, look what happened with me", and to me it seemed he wasn't reassuring her about his feelings (like he had in New Orleans) but about the chance of being the Bachelorette.  (This may have been colored by the announcement shortly thereafter).  I don't think they slept together - especially if its true that it "was always Vanessa" like he said. 

I also think that Vanessa is not a producer/Chris favorite or fan.  I think that may be where some of the tension on the ATFR came from, while it was absent on Jimmy Kimmel.  I don't think she was easy to deal with on the show, so producers dont like her.  And I dont think she liked the way she/Rachel were portrayed, so she doesnt like the producers.  YMMV.  

Loved the puppies so much.  

[ribboninthesky1]

9 hours ago, waving feather said:

Vanessa is Hollywood pretty enough to be an actress (if she can act). I'm kind of hoping she would succeed in out famewhoring Nick. That would be classic.

I am beside myself with schadenfreude at this possibility. 

[truthaboutluv]

1 hour ago, fib said:

I can't tell if it's because she is wearing none or just really really good at putting it on.

In an interview she did before the season started, she said she's not great at it (applying makeup) so she sticks to just the basics - light foundation/concealer and some lip gloss. 

1 hour ago, fib said:

And I think the main difference is that Nick and Vanessa seem to like the struggle while Em/Brad seemed to like the control that caused the struggle.

Interesting. All I remember most about Emily and Brad's AFR is that much like Vanessa, it seemed Emily really hadn't watched the show much before coming on and was really bothered by the edit, particularly how much they played up the passion between Brad and Chantel and edited her to be incredibly boring. I won't lie, I bought the boring edit myself and remember feeling like I saw no chemistry between her and Brad. 

1 hour ago, fib said:

I think Nick was toting Rachel along for a long time knowing she was a) awesome and b)not his choice.  I think it was in ST Thomas  that he said something along the lines of, "You never know, Something good could come of this, look what happened with me", and to me it seemed he wasn't reassuring her about his feelings (like he had in New Orleans) but about the chance of being the Bachelorette.

In some interviews after the announcement, Rachel did reference things Nick said to her regarding the process and the show that she was grateful for and thought would be helpful for her as the lead on her season. 

1 hour ago, fib said:

I also think that Vanessa is not a producer/Chris favorite or fan.  I think that may be where some of the tension on the ATFR came from, while it was absent on Jimmy Kimmel.  I don't think she was easy to deal with on the show, so producers dont like her.  And I dont think she liked the way she/Rachel were portrayed, so she doesnt like the producers.  YMMV.  

It was interesting when she said she's not always the easiest to deal with and Chris Harrison said, "no...really?" Based on a number of their other interviews in the past two days, it does seem that Vanessa truly had not watched the show much before coming on. She'd apparently only seen a few episodes here and there from different seasons but never watched an entire season. I remember Nick was the same when they cast him for Andi's season but he wisely binged a season or two before filming started. 

But yeah in one interview, Nick said that there were times when Vanessa would say something or be upset about something during the filming and he would wonder, "did she ever watch the show?" That's why he also said he tried to warn her about social media before the season started airing, which she thought she would be okay with and yeah, not so much. And he stated that he also warned her that the show would not necessarily edit their relationship the way it actually was. 

Because in the same interview he addressed all the so serious conversations and apparent no fun between them and basically questioned that anyone thinks if things between them was never fun or romantic, he would have chosen her. He noted that of course the editors chose to show what they chose to show. So I definitely think this is a combination of a strong willed woman who maybe entered into something she didn't fully prepare herself for and as a result wasn't or isn't exactly thrilled after. And yeah it's naturally caused issues between them. 

I don't see them lasting but I guess crazier things have happened. I do think it's a good sign that she definitively states that she is moving to be with him and whatever issues they have to figure out in that regard seems to be legal, because Vanessa is not an American. And I also think it's a good sign that she seems happy and very supportive of him doing DWTS. Nick even said in one interview that she's almost more excited than him. The moving thing is especially funny to me because the season made it seem like that was the big divide and even now I see comments that he shouldn't have picked her because she'd never move and Vanessa, even on the AFR casually states that that was actually never an issue.  

Quote

Her cold demeanour and the fact that she lives in another country really should have tipped us off that she wasn't an obvious choice.

See even if I wasn't spoiled, I think I would still have thought he was picking Vanessa because the editing to me was way too heavy handed with the issues with Vanessa and only sunshine and daises with him and Raven. Years ago, in the really early days of this show, I was the person who always fell for the edit and as a result, always ended up picking the F2.

Seriously, they got me almost every time. So once I finally got wiser to how the show works and well social media happened, to me if you pay attention to little things, it can give away who gets picked. And I just feel like they were almost trying to make it seem so obvious that he would pick Raven or that she made the most sense, that there was no way it was her. And the minute they showed her saying she had no doubts about accepting his proposal - that was editing trick 101. 

Edited March 15, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[Former Nun]

9 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

she is moving to be with him

Uhhhhh...."Hollywood" ??

[TheFinalRose]

1 hour ago, fib said:

I totally agree with Emily Maynard - there is trouble in Nick/Vanessa world, though Im not sure it is as bad yet with Nick and Vanessa as it was with Emily/Brad.  And I think the main difference is that Nick and Vanessa seem to like the struggle while Em/Brad seemed to like the control that caused the struggle.  They might just make it.  I don't know. 

 

I don't know either, but the two couples are not alike at all. Brad had a temper, and we don't know how much of their issues were Emily rightly being upset with Brad having a short fuse or inappropriate reactions. We know he had a temper because his family confirmed it.

Nick doesn't have a temper, so whatever issues are going on between Nick and Vanessa it's clearly because I think they both like to dig into their issues, or as they call it "Putting everything on the table." Well, doing that can get messy, the wrong thing can be said/heard, etc., and suddenly it's now a blow-up.  Not the same as blowing up over jealousy, temper, etc., but still causes conflict.  Ben and Lauren have obvious conflict that I think is caused by Ben's behavior on the show and their personality differences ... his neediness and her lagging patience with that.

As for Nick and Vanessa, I don't care if they get married or not, as Nick has been unmarried for so long that he's probably more comfortable that way. However, maybe  Vanessa will probably push for them to get their own Freeform reality show ... (if those awful twins can score one why not Nick and V?) I actually would watch the heck out of the Nick and V show. Their fights would be awesome. 

[DEL901]

I hope Vanessa does know what is involved with DWTS.  Nice she'll be there, but it's not just doing a show a week.  That practice hours and hours ever day.  She'd going to be spending a lot of time on her own and he'll be tired when he isn't rehearsing.  At least with Peta as partner there shouldn't be any shomance rumours like with Chris and other Whitney.

[slowpoked]

14 hours ago, yorklee2 said:

 I think the tears were genuine but why did you get the perception that they drove around for hours and hours? I didn't notice any thing like that at all. Maybe I missed something.

From her choice of words, it felt like it was manipulated out of her, more than genuine emotion of getting rejected. It was just weird to talk about things in general, and not in specific terms, especially as something had just happened. I dunno, it just felt like that to me. Especially since contestants have now come out and said that if the producers don't get what they were looking for for their "exit limo interview", they tell the driver to drive around until they finally breakdown and give them something good on film.

[RHJunkie]

26 minutes ago, TheFinalRose said:

I don't know either, but the two couples are not alike at all. Brad had a temper, and we don't know how much of their issues were Emily rightly being upset with Brad having a short fuse or inappropriate reactions. We know he had a temper because his family confirmed it.

Nick doesn't have a temper, so whatever issues are going on between Nick and Vanessa it's clearly because I think they both like to dig into their issues, or as they call it "Putting everything on the table." Well, doing that can get messy, the wrong thing can be said/heard, etc., and suddenly it's now a blow-up.  Not the same as blowing up over jealousy, temper, etc., but still causes conflict.  Ben and Lauren have obvious conflict that I think is caused by Ben's behavior on the show and their personality differences ... his neediness and her lagging patience with that.

As for Nick and Vanessa, I don't care if they get married or not, as Nick has been unmarried for so long that he's probably more comfortable that way. However, maybe  Vanessa will probably push for them to get their own Freeform reality show ... (if those awful twins can score one why not Nick and V?) I actually would watch the heck out of the Nick and V show. Their fights would be awesome. 

I was going to say the same thing about Brad and Emily. I do recall her not being a fan of her edit on the show but also she did mention that Brad had a temper and that is an obvious red flag. The writing was on the wall the moment those words came out of her mouth. That's a much harder challenge to navigate.

The trouble with always putting things on the table, is yes, like you mentioned, the process of communication may make the matter worse, but if it gets to the point where every small point needs to be discussed because it's a feeling or thought, you're likely going to begin questioning at some point how reasonable it is to even have discussions about something. When Vanessa talks about needing to put everything on the table, I automatically think of the most extreme case of someone who feels that they need to talk about every thought and feeling they experience no matter how small and petty. If that was a reality show, I might cry more than Nick and Vanessa combined, haha.

[DriveInSaturday]

Just throwing some old fashioned troll/unpopular opinions to end this season

1. LOL at Nick not actually having had a connection with Rachel. This man is the world's worst actor. Take a look at his scenes with Danielle M if you want to see Nick trying to force a connection with someone that the producers encouraged him to keep around. There's not always an "affirmative action" answer to every time a person of color wins something. It took pretty much a billion seasons for this to happen. If the show was in the business of "fixing" for diversity against the preferences of the lead, it wouldn't have taken this long. Honestly, I think its just sour-grapes Raven fans. And I know every season the fans of the 'ette that might have been throw some shade at the chosen one, but perhaps such folks can consider arguments for Raven and against Rachel that aren't subtly racist (because, really, it comes down to: "A white guy with options couldn't possibly have actually been interested in a black girl! There has got to be foul play.").

2. I personally can't relate to Bachelor Nation's obsession with blondes. Nick is being raked over the coals for preferring brunettes like it's some kind of bizarre dirty fetish. Meanwhile plenty of previous Bachelors have obviously preferred blondes with precious little being made of it. Furthermore, people are WAY overstating the physical similarities between Kaitlyn, Andi, and Vanessa. Kaitlyn looks completely different from Andi and Vanessa in the face. And I guess you could say Andi and Vanessa look somewhat similar in the face (I think Vanessa's hooded eyes make her look quite different, but hey, let's say they look similar in the face for argument's sake), but they have completely different body types from one another. IMHO Vanessa is a real natural beauty with a gorgeous body and Andi and especially Kaitlyn are just really thin and clean up well, but YMMV.

[truthaboutluv]

8 minutes ago, DriveInSaturday said:

1. LOL at Nick not actually having had a connection with Rachel. This man is the world's worst actor. Take a look at his scenes with Danielle M if you want to see Nick trying to force a connection with someone that the producers encouraged him to keep around. There's not always an "affirmative action" answer to every time a person of color wins something.

IA. I get that some can't stand Nick and think everything he does is calculated like the famewhore he is but I really don't buy that Nick brought Rachel as far as he did because he knew it would make him look good and doing his part to say he helped the show have its first African American lead. Sure, I think by mid-season he knew she'd be a heavy favorite with the producers and a likely choice for the lead but I believe he was genuinely attracted to her and impressed with the woman she is. To me it's kind of insulting and selling Rachel short to suggest Nick only brought her as far as he did to make himself look good. Because that's almost suggesting the mere idea that he was legitimately into her is impossible. 

[Mabinogia]

1 minute ago, truthaboutluv said:

To me it's kind of insulting and selling Rachel short to suggest Nick only brought her as far as he did to make himself look good. Because that's almost suggesting the mere idea that he was legitimately into her is impossible.

Seriously. Assuming he took her because he was told to doesn't make him look bad it makes her look bad. I saw serious attraction between the two. I don't believe she was in contention to be the final girl, but that's mostly because I think he knew pretty early on that Vanessa was the one. If Vanessa hadn't been there I think Rachel would have been a serious consideration for him. They had the perfect combination of serious and fun. She was sort of inbetween Fun Time Raven and All Serious Vanessa really.

[yorklee2]

39 minutes ago, slowpoked said:

From her choice of words, it felt like it was manipulated out of her, more than genuine emotion of getting rejected. It was just weird to talk about things in general, and not in specific terms, especially as something had just happened. I dunno, it just felt like that to me. Especially since contestants have now come out and said that if the producers don't get what they were looking for for their "exit limo interview", they tell the driver to drive around until they finally breakdown and give them something good on film.

You know that makes sense since I don't put that past the producers at all. But I've seen people who hide their emotions well and don't like to show them and Raven strikes me very much as this kind of person. If Vanessa is dramatic and cries a lot then Raven is kind of the opposite and more stoic. But if the producers had to cajole them out of her that still doesn't mean they weren't real. I do believe that it didn't take her long to bounce back though as this was more than likely just the bubble love this show produces in a lot of these women but rejection does hurts even if your just minimally invested.

[Canada]

Okay, I'll admit that I wasn't paying close attention during this episode, or previous ones, but I'm confused about when Raven and Vanessa met Nick's family at "home".  I think they said it happened at "home".  But I thought they were all in Finland before and after meeting Nick's family.  Did they really go from Finland, to Wisconsin, then back to Finland?? 

I don't see Nick and Vanessa lasting.  I think he had to choose someone and he picked her because she offers and easy out - "oh, this distance thing was too much to overcome!!"  Until he starts choosing a different type, as others have said, he'll never get married.  And I'm not even sure he wants to be married.

And why did they put so much damned make-up on poor Rachel???  She looked awful!

Edited March 15, 2017 by Canada

[ribboninthesky1]

53 minutes ago, DriveInSaturday said:

Nick is being raked over the coals for preferring brunettes like it's some kind of bizarre dirty fetish.

I didn't realize this.  I never give Nick credit, so I admit that I find his overwhelming preference for brunettes refreshing. 

I don't see much physical similarity between Andi, Kaitlyn, and Vanessa either beyond "petite brunette." To your point, Vanessa is more a natural beauty with curves while Andi and Kaitlyn have the Audrey Hepburn body type.   Facially, they don't look similar at all to me.  I do think Andi and Vanessa have similarly entitled dispositions, with an exception: Andi had the audacity to frown when thinking or listening, with a side of serious resting face.     

27 minutes ago, yorklee2 said:

If Vanessa is dramatic and cries a lot then Raven is kind of the opposite and more stoic.

Also, based on Raven and Nick's final conversation, it felt to me that Raven kind of knew she wasn't F1. And thus, didn't look surprised when she wasn't.  Maybe she managed to have a pragmatic approach to the show, and for that I'm grateful. 

18 minutes ago, Canada said:

Okay, I'll admit that I wasn't paying close attention during this episode, or previous ones, but I'm confused about when Raven and Vanessa met Nick's family at "home".  I think they said it happened at "home".  But I thought they were all in Finland before and after meeting Nick's family.  Did they really go from Finland, to Wisconsin, then back to Finland?? 

They went to Nick's hometown earlier in the season, and Raven met Nick's parents then. I think she and brunette Danielle had 1-on-1 dates with Nick during that episode, but Raven met them at the little sister's soccer game (too lazy to verify this).  

Edited March 15, 2017 by ribboninthesky1

[yorklee2]

46 minutes ago, DriveInSaturday said:

I think its just sour-grapes Raven fans. And I know every season the fans of the 'ette that might have been throw some shade at the chosen one, but perhaps such folks can consider arguments for Raven and against Rachel that aren't subtly racist (because, really, it comes down to: "A white guy with options couldn't possibly have actually been interested in a black girl! There has got to be foul play.").

 

46 minutes ago, DriveInSaturday said:

I personally can't relate to Bachelor Nation's obsession with blondes.

I was a Raven fan and I don't feel that way at all but I totally believe there are some who don't like Rachel for the simple reason she's black. Which is just total ignorance and prejudice. I don't see her in color. In my opinion she is one of the most likeable, warmhearted, intelligent b'ette they have ever chosen. It's kind of ironic really that some people chose to feel this way because Raven and Rachel themselves developed one of the closet friendships that has probably ever came out of this franchise. They genuinely seem to adore each other and have each other's back. I really hope Rachel's season isn't marred by this type of nonsense certain people want to spew.

Totally agree about the blondes! I thought it was refreshing to see a season that wasn't predominantly tilted with a sea of blondes. Nothing against them as there are many beautiful intelligent blondes out there but come on was it that bad to see one season where brunettes were in the majority??

[Vinyasa]

My short and sweet summary.

Vanessa is more in love with the ring than Nick, just like most of them.

[Nowhere]

On 3/14/2017 at 1:12 PM, slowpoked said:

I think Andi is stunning though. And one of the reasons I picked Vanessa early on was that looks-wise she reminded me of Andi. Nick clearly has a type.

Kaitlyn was the one who didn't do it for me, looks-wise, but I can see how that "playful" personality is attractive to some.

I guess I'm one of the minority that didn't think Andi was very pretty. She seemed older than what she was and she always did that weird frowny face when she was pretending to listen.

i thought Kaitlyn was so pretty and fun. I didn't have any issues with her personality and I don't know why everybody hates her. I was pissed at her at the time for sleeping with Nick and then even at the hometown dates she basically told him she would pick him. I don't agree with how she handled the season but I always liked her personality, even if she made some shitty choices. Maybe she did something else that I don't know about that makes everyone hate her.?  But she is sooo pretty it's sickening in my opinion. 

Vanessa is pretty too. Much prettier than Andi. But her attitude makes her ugly. And her features kind of remind me of a muppet.

I actually think that Danielle with the big boobs looks like a copy of Andi. 

[RHJunkie]

1 hour ago, yorklee2 said:

You know that makes sense since I don't put that past the producers at all. But I've seen people who hide their emotions well and don't like to show them and Raven strikes me very much as this kind of person. If Vanessa is dramatic and cries a lot then Raven is kind of the opposite and more stoic. But if the producers had to cajole them out of her that still doesn't mean they weren't real. I do believe that it didn't take her long to bounce back though as this was more than likely just the bubble love this show produces in a lot of these women but rejection does hurts even if your just minimally invested.

That was my take on Raven's reaction as well. I do think her words and emotions were genuine but I do think that because she is generally a more emotionally reserved person, producers probably tried to manipulate something more dramatic out of her. If you're someone who likes to keep your composure and you don't want to appear emotionally vulnerable then after having to handle rejection in front of people and cameras, it seems reasonable that you won't want to talk to any of those people, let alone get into detail about what you just experienced. Raven probably tried to keep her comments vague so that they would leave her alone in peace.

Put it this way - Raven didn't seem overly emotional about hearing that her father was cancer free. Who would doubt for a second that Raven wasn't in fact overjoyed with that news just because she didn't break down into tears or start shouting 'OMG OMG'? She's just not an overly expressive person but because I genuinely think that about her, I think that even small mannerisms can say a lot about what she's feeling since, unlike Nick, she has a great poker face.

[Nowhere]

Since it has been discussed often, I just want to say that I don't know about reality Steve but I picked Vanessa from the beginning based on the fact that they showed her hometown and gave her a really good introduction. I picked two women for the final based on that alone. It's a game my boyfriend and I play. We pick two out of the limo and stick to it.  Vanessa and blonde Danielle were my picks. I also thought Raven would be eliminated rather quickly based on her intro and I thought dolphin would be gone night one. So nobody is perfect, but I feel it was very obvious that Vanessa was the pick. Especially after she straight up told Nick off over Corinne and he took it. We didn't need spoilers or reality Steve to notice. 

[catrice2]

I know that I have expressed that Nick had an angle with regards to wanting to be the Bachelor that showed he was truly open to diversity.   I think this is probably part of the reason he was casts.  My friend (or her coworker) said that Nick either had a Black or Indian girlfriend before. I think with the new honcho at ABC and all the heat they were feeling, they wanted a Bachelor that they knew would not just SAY they were open to diversity, but it was in their history.  Whether they directly discussed it or not  the producers/show runners wanted to "test" how the audience would respond to the intimacy.  I also don't think it is a coincidence that they started with a Black Bachelorette rather than a Black Bachelor.

 That is not to say that I don't think he had a romantic connection with Rachel. I have to admit I only saw bits and pieces of episodes, but I didn't see a strong connection with anyone, but in terms of chemistry I did see chemistry with Rachel and Nick.  I still think he had an angle and it was just fortunate for him that he actually liked Rachel and was attracted to her. In no way does that reflect upon Rachel any more than my comments about Nick reflect upon the other women.  I don't think he really wants to get married, but I mean no ill will toward Vanessa.  I personally did not warm to any of the women, if I had to pick I did like what I saw of Rachel and one of the other dark haired girls that left.  In a way I feel like the audience was short changed because when I watched it was the Corinne show, so I did not get to see the personalities of many women.  From the comments on this board though I didn't miss much.  I think Nick is the kind of guy women like to talk to and be around.  I saw chemistry with Corinne and Alexis, just not a romantic chemistry.  I think Nick has feelings for Vanessa, sure, just maybe not those that can sustain a marriage.  To be fair, however, I think that the couples probably had a better chance of making it pre social media and all the "appearances"on shows. That kind of media exposure cannot help a relationship .

Edited March 15, 2017 by catrice2
added part of reason others were probably not cast

[slowpoked]

14 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

 That is not to say that I don't think he had a romantic connection with Rachel. I have to admit I only saw bits and pieces of episodes, but I didn't see a strong connection with anyone, but in terms of chemistry I did see chemistry with Rachel and Nick.  I still think he had an angle and it was just fortunate for him that he actually liked Rachel and was attracted to her. In no way does that reflect upon Rachel any more than my comments about Nick reflect upon the other women.

I did see chemistry between Nick and Rachel as well, and aside from genuinely liking her, I think Nick also respected her, as a woman with a lot of achievements. From what I saw of them together, Nick seemed the most relaxed with Rachel and had no drama. At least to how it was edited, his time with Rachel was easy-going, even on that short date before Kristina was eliminated. They knew they didn't have much time together, but that didn't bother them. 

[nlkm9]

On 3/14/2017 at 0:07 PM, JenE4 said:

O'Connell. Jerry O'Connell's brother. I thought the girl he picked was very cute and that she could have done better than him. The drinking problem was apparent on his season. I still recall group dates with doing body shots off of the various contestants' bellies. IMO, that was the trashiest season ever because he didn't project the expected behavior/stature of The Bachelor.

You are misremembering. The final 2 is always done this way. For a handful of seasons they used to go back and forth between the filmed "proposals" so you wouldn't know which one it was going to be. I think maybe once or twice they had the loser go last. But now they've given up again, and it's always send the F2 on her way and usher in the proposal.

That has happened a few times. The aforementioned Charlie O'Connell was one of them, I think. But I'm sure the producers REALLY push for a proposal.

the most cringeworthy thing on Charlies season is that he actually couldnt choose between the final 2 and they agreed to both date him for several weeks so he could decide. UGH :(

[catrice2]

See, this is what I don't understand. Why not film the entire season except for the final rose? When they wrap it will be narrowed down to 2 and then the lead spends the next (however long between filming and airing) actually dating the final two, and then they have a special where he finally chooses?    I actually have no issue with the above. I would rather date him and see if I am really interested than make some rash decision.  I don't know, this whole pressure to have a proposal and "happily ever after" is unnecessary.  People would still watch if there was no proposal. 

[Former Nun]

5 hours ago, TheFinalRose said:

Nick has been unmarried for so long that he's probably more comfortable that way.

Maybe Nick shouldn't consider getting married until he has held a regular normal-guy job for 5-6 years.  OR...he could marry Corinne and not worry about it.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Former Nun
typo-ooh!