S01.E18: Moonshadow

[Clanstarling]

17 hours ago, betha said:

That's a good question. I would say the attitudes were mixed, much as they are now. There were plenty of female breadwinners and high earners in the 1990s. But two-parent families were more likely than now to be able to be supported by one main income. My mom worked and most friends' moms worked, but it was for lower pay and seen as supplemental. There was more pressure on the man to be a sole provider --whereas now there is more pressure on/need for both parents to earn. 

My husband and I alternated being the primary wage earners in the 1990's. Mostly due to layoffs. But we were fortunate enough to have created a life where we could manage on a single income. He was (is) a singer in a number of bands, so we've both been Rebecca or Jack at various time periods. Neither of us thought staying at home was a lesser role. But neither of us would have called it particularly fulfilling either.

17 hours ago, Bama said:

And I uttered "OOF" when Rebecca told him to "Let you father out".  That cuts to the core of everything Jack has tried to not be his entire adult life.

It's kind of a nuclear option in a fight - to hit you with your weakest spot. Jack did the same. Unrestrained fighting is nasty business.

10 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

Jack can be funny, romantic, devoted, and charming.  He is also a steamroller of a person.

This. So much.

5 hours ago, luna1122 said:

I've mentioned it before, but my significant other is a musician. He teaches at a school for the blind, he teaches private lessons, and he does local gigs with various bands. He's often got gigs on the weekends. We don't have kids; sometimes I go, more often, after 12+ years together, I do not, as it eventually sort of becomes like going to your partner's job, and you don't really do that. Very occasionally, he's had an out of town gig overnight; again, sometimes I go, sometimes not--no kids, but I can't take off work for that. If he were to have the opportunity to go on a two week 'tour' out of town, I would not be thrilled. All of the things Jack said and thought: I might also think. Not like you're gonna get rich and famous from this. You're almost 40. It's silly.

I stopped going to gigs regularly before we had kids, but my experience is similar. My husband, now in his 60's, still gigs now and then. And even went out on a mini-tour not that long ago. Even though I may have thought some of those things, I would never say them. Just as he will never point out that I'm acting like my father. There are buttons we just won't push, even in our worst moments. That's how we've stayed together 30+ years.

5 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

By the way, was anyone else concerned for Rebecca's luggage?  She didn't even take the time to change into whatever clothes she might have worn to the nightclub.  Presumably, her luggage is in the car of whoever was driving the group to their first gig - as I recall, she had quite a bit of it.

I know! That bothered me the whole time - especially since Jack seemed to have a bag packed before Rebecca kicked him out.

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

See, I wish they would have explained the timing of when exactly the epi was taking place.  Because if he was fresh back from Vietnam, as in a couple of months, I don't find it that odd he was still living at home.  But, if it had been at least a year, I do, especially seeing the way he feels about his father.  And, this is the first I've heard of him being in Vietnam.  I just looked this up, all combat forces were pulled from Vietnam in 1973.  If Jack was born in 1944 that means he was there from '71 to '73 tops.   We know that the episode took place before 1979 since the kids were born in 1980.  But, I have no idea how long they were together before that, and it would have been nice if the show gave us a clue, which I might very well have missed, since I, too, found the episode boring.

My guess is that he enlisted, but even if he hadn't - my husband got his draft number in 1968 - when he turned 18. So there was plenty of time for Jack, six years older, to have served.

18 minutes ago, wings707 said:

She saw Jack before she could take any action, is what I got.  I understand why her anger shifted toward Jack.  She was still angry her ex came onto her but her husbands behavior took over the situation.  

She had just left a message telling him how much she loved him.  She was ready to can her "career" and go back home to her kids and husband.  She talked about belonging with her family when she saw the size of the crowd.  It was clear she had already made the decision that this on the road stuff was not for her before he tried to kiss her. 

And promptly deleted that message when she got home. I kind of appreciated that little act of spite, myself.

I'm glad I don't pay attention to the hype. I kind of agree that this didn't quite seem a season finale, I wasn't disappointed in it. I'm in no hurry to find out exactly when and how Jack died.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Clanstarling

[Granny58]

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

Did Jack say he was drafted?  I was thinking he probably enlisted which would have meant a four year term. (Drafted men served 2 years.)

somewhere in this episode I am recalling "4 years."  Or perhaps I just assumed that.  Anybody else hear it?

36 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I could be mis-remembering, but I think he said something like being 40 and singing covers in bars makes her not a singer but a loser.  That's mean as hell coming from a person who is supposed to love you.  I should look at that again.  I might have embellished the meanness in my mind.

OH!  Well, if he said that, that would be cruel.  I don't remember that though.  

[Ripley68]

I'm pretty sure Jack volunteered for Vietnam.  He either heavily implied it, or stated it outright to his friend in one of their conversations (or maybe to the neighbor lady).

As for him not being able to find a job? In the 70's unfortunately veterans were not very highly thought of.  It wasn't really  until "Born on the Fourth of July" came out that the majority of peoples attitudes towards Vietnam vets started changing.  It seems like the prevailing attitude towards Vietnam vets was the "baby-killer" thing.  Jack not being able to find a job fall right in line with that.  One of the reasons why we have "hire a vet" commercials today.

[Granny58]

35 minutes ago, Literata said:

As someone who spent a few years as an at-home mom, if my husband had been dismissive of any hope I had to follow my dream, I would have reacted just as Rebecca did. Is hers a pipe dream? Maybe. But that wasn't for him to determine; she was only going to be gone for two weeks, which wasn't a major inconvenience to him or to the kids. I'm more partial to Jack, but that remark was a dick move on his part. 

Nah, I'm a SAHM too.  If I saw hubby slaving away daily/weekly/yearly, my goal to find myself would not be to get on stage (even if that was my passion, though my passion would be to go to college and learn a language or history or some other subject that won't make money).  Nope, I would find a job that would help with the bills to help my husband.   

Edited March 15, 2017 by Granny58

[Clanstarling]

Just now, Ripley68 said:

I'm pretty sure Jack volunteered for Vietnam.  He either heavily implied it, or stated it outright to his friend in one of their conversations (or maybe to the neighbor lady).

As for him not being able to find a job? In the 70's unfortunately veterans were not very highly thought of.  It wasn't really  until "Born on the Fourth of July" came out that the majority of peoples attitudes towards Vietnam vets started changing.  It seems like the prevailing attitude towards Vietnam vets was the "baby-killer" thing.  Jack not being able to find a job fall right in line with that.  One of the reasons why we have "hire a vet" commercials today.

I think that depended on where you were living. I wouldn't expect that in the blue collar neighborhood Jack's folks lived in. Or from blue collar employers, for that matter. We were a military family, and though we saw some of it, we didn't really see that attitude consistently.

[Granny58]

3 minutes ago, Ripley68 said:

As for him not being able to find a job? In the 70's unfortunately veterans were not very highly thought of.  It wasn't really  until "Born on the Fourth of July" came out that the majority of peoples attitudes towards Vietnam vets started changing.  It seems like the prevailing attitude towards Vietnam vets was the "baby-killer" thing.  Jack not being able to find a job fall right in line with that.  One of the reasons why we have "hire a vet" commercials today.

My dad was a Vietnam-era vet (served in Thailand, not Vietnam).  He retired in the 70s.  He found work.  Not a dream job....but a 40/hour week job.  Meaning, Jack should have found work before hatching a plot to rob the pub.  

Edited March 15, 2017 by Granny58

[BoogieBurns]

I liked this episode. It felt like a great non-cliffhanger way to go into the long break between seasons. I wanted to know more about Jack, and we got that. I also saw my parents fighting on that screen, it was so real. To be fair, my parents never fought in front of me until the day they announced their divorce, but I'm pretty sure that's what it looked like when we were at Nana's.

Randall adopting seems great, but it's so similar to the Julia Braverman storyline from Parenthood. I actually see very few similarities between the two shows at this point, except this one. High-powered Julia quit her job to raise her adopted son and her stay at home husband became the breadwinner. Of course this is a bit different, I'm just fine with them not adopting an 11 year old named... was it Victor?

Kate sings well. Go for it. I liked the idea someone had upthread about her doing jingles. Great money, no stage fright, and a flexible schedule to go cross country on a whim for 3 months. 

Kevin, meh. He's pretty.

I like Jack and Rebecca the same amount. I don't think one is better, and I would be miserable being a SAHM for 16 year olds too. So maybe I'm partial to her. 51/49 Rebecca/Jack okay? 

So happy no one died and I got to work with no puffy eyes this morning!

[Crs97]

I don't think Rebecca thought she would become a national phenomenon, but she had an opportunity to sing again and was finding some success at it.  She was in a band that had a regular gig, and seemingly because of her they had attracted a talent agent who wanted them to tour.  I don't understand how that is ridiculous.  I actually have friends who do that.  They play several venues locally, make a little money, and are having a blast.  Of course, the stay-at-home mom of teens has a husband who is actually supportive and takes care of their kids because he is so proud that she has a chance to realize her dream.

I thought Renecca called home because she just wanted to hear Jack's voice at that point.  She was nervous, angry, devastated, and wanted to talk to her best friend.  He wasn't there so she was probably pacing and trying to calm down and decide what to do.  Instead she discovers Jack has made it so much worse by opening himself up to an assault charge.  He also humiliated her.  And from the tone of these posts, if she had sung she would be wrong for disrespecting Jack, but because she took him home she was wrong for bailing on the band.

[Clanstarling]

1 minute ago, Granny58 said:

My dad was a Vietnam-era vet (served in Thailand, not Vietnam).  He retired in the 70s.  He found work.  Not a dream job....but a 40/hour week job.  

Mine too. Everywhere we went after he retired in 1970. And we went lots and lots of places.

[Trooper York]

1 minute ago, BoogieBurns said:

So happy no one died and I got to work with no puffy eyes this morning!

That's not quite true.

Rebecca's dream died and now someone else will have to sing covers of the Captain and Tennille while drunks fight with their waitresses over their order of chicken wings. Sad.

[Literata]

1 minute ago, Granny58 said:

Nah, I'm a SAHM too.  If I saw hubby slaving away daily/weekly/yearly, my goal to find myself would not be to get on stage (even if that was my passion) because my passion would be to go to college and learn a language or history or some other subject that won't make money.  Nope, I would find a job that would help with the bills to help my husband.   

Was she not being paid at all for the two weeks? I really never got the impression they were in dire financial straits. If I missed that, my apologies, as that would certainly skew my response. 

And if her paycheck isn't sorely needed, I don't see a thing wrong with her doing something that feeds her soul.  Everyone views marriage and his or her responsibilities to it differently, and I don't mean to criticize your perspective, but I think maintaining one's individuality in any partnership is critical. 

[Kohola3]

Quote

I thought Rebecca called home because she just wanted to hear Jack's voice at that point.  She was nervous, angry, devastated, and wanted to talk to her best friend.  He wasn't there so she was probably pacing and trying to calm down and decide what to do.  Instead she discovers Jack has made it so much worse by opening himself up to an assault charge.  He also humiliated her.  And from the tone of these posts, if she had sung she would be wrong for disrespecting Jack, but because she took him home she was wrong for bailing on the band.

ITA. I am Team Bec all the way.  I think there is a lot of background that we haven't seen about St. Jack that may have put her in the frame of mind she was in.  If Jack had been drinking for years and years and then quit we don't know what hell she went through during that time and how supportive she was.  My best friend's dad was alcoholic and it was a brutal way to live for that family.  And I don't think Rebecca ever envisioned a true career in singing but for the love of God, give her a few weeks of doing something other than mothering that gave her some joy.

My mom lived to be a housewife and mother (of the post WWII generation) but even she got restless at times and tried a couple of little jobs outside the house.  Knowing that was my only path in life until the kids left the house would drive me batty. 

The fight was hard to watch but so realistic.  Once the filters are removed in times of a passionate hurt feelings, things are said that we would never say any other time.  It was hard to watch.

If you have 37 minutes to spare, an After Show extravaganza.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Kohola3

[mojoween]

I am not really all that interested in the kids that Randall DOES have, so an adoption storyline is so not what I am here for.  Please talk him out of that Beth.

[UsernameFatigue]

2 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

No, they just said that he had been in Vietnam.  And, since he was a mechanic, I doubt he was drafted.  My father (again, also a mechanic) had been in the military several years before Vietnam and, by the time he went, he was well-trained in his job.  He did, however, work on airplanes, not trucks/tanks/etc, so it may have been slightly different.  Still, I wouldn't be surprised if Jack had been in the military before Vietnam and then was sent there as part of his service.  He was also, what? 28, here? That would also explain it.  If he enlisted right after school, he'd only be 22 (if he were drafted, he'd only be 20)--I got the feeling that he hadn't been back long.

Even if he went at 22 he would be back at 26, so still living at home at 28 makes no sense to me. 

 

2 hours ago, Calamity Jane said:

I don't think 1969 could be right.  Men were subject to the draft as soon as they turned 18.  About 1969 or so the system changed to a lottery thing.  I was in college at that time, and until the lottery, you were granted an exemption for being in college.  I well remember seniors getting the letter from Selective Service.  My boyfriend at the time got a bad lottery number and was called up, but flunked the physical because of a back injury from trying to run the hurdles!  But men were drafted well before the age of 25!  That might even have been the cut-off age.  An awful lot of the men who died over there were really boys in their teens.  

Thanks for that info. Being Canadian and only 12 in '69 I don't know all the ins and outs of the draft so just saw the info regarding the lottery for those born in 1944. So still seems odd that Jack would be living at home at 28 even if he did 4 years at some point. One of the things I hate about the show is the lack of details. 

Regarding Randall and Beth possibly adopting, I am not interested in that story line either. I think that shows get ruined by bringing in too many kids. Blackish was spoiled for me when they made the mom preggers at this late stage in her life. Four kids are plenty and the show will be than much thinner with another one added. Two kids are plenty for me in Randall's family. Not that they are asking my opinion, of course. 

I also am not thrilled with Kate now wanting to sing. How many 36 year olds start their career at that age? Unless she goes on the Voice or some such show I see her repeating her mother's career. And Toby supporting them. Yawn. 

OTOH I am on board with Kevin in a Ron Howard movie, and hope Ron makes more appearances. 

[Neurochick]

6 hours ago, ZaldamoWilder said:

The problem is this isn't for him to say.   An episode or so ago, Saint Pearson told Miguel that singing again was kind of her dream and he knew it, so the irrational objections to having her fulfill her dream because he had to pick up the slack that mothers do everyday and win no awards for seemed, well, kind of dickish.   To have the guy with enough self awareness acknowledge that and then say the thing that solidified said dickishness was disappointing.   Didn't take long for Saint Pearson's consciousness to dissolve in that six pack huh?   Somehow he's still the hero and she's an ungrateful bitch.   The writers did absolutely help with her lines in the fight.   Whoever ever goes here:   you're just like your mother/father, automatic  ringside point deduction for low blow.  That's a tough one to come back from.  

Here's my UO here.  I like Rebecca better than I like Jack.

When I was in college 30+ years ago, many of the women in the school were there to get a husband (I went to college near a military academy).  Some used to subscribe to Modern Bride and Brides magazine (before they even met "Mr. Right) and dream of the perfect wedding.  Rebecca was not one of those women.  She wanted to be a singer, she was serious about singing as a career.  It wasn't until Rebecca had lunch with her friends, who basically told her not to put all her eggs in one basket so to speak, and she received a rejection, that she wondered if maybe she should diversity that portfolio; hence the blind date.  

I think part of what fueled Rebecca's anger in the fight with Jack was, she knew that had her singing career taken off, she never would have married Jack and had three children.  Now, she wasn't angry because she hated Jack and the kids, but it's like looking at your life and saying, "fuck, this isn't what I wanted...how the hell did I get here?"  To me, that's a normal thought.  I've had those thoughts many times in my life; but I always have to step back, take a breath and then I realize that my life isn't as awful as I think it is.  Both Rebecca and Jack were venting, saying things both of them probably had wanted to say to each other, had bottled up for years.  

Jack's jealously came from his belief that Rebecca "saved" him.  He was going to steal money out of the cash register, but when he saw Rebecca, he forgot all about that.  So Jack has always had this feeling about Rebecca, she's not just a woman, she's the woman who saved him from a life of crime.  Someone was right here when they said Jack has a Madonna complex when it comes to Rebecca; and no woman can be the Madonna...except Madonna.

[Lady Calypso]

30 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

Jack's jealously came from his belief that Rebecca "saved" him.  He was going to steal money out of the cash register, but when he saw Rebecca, he forgot all about that.  So Jack has always had this feeling about Rebecca, she's not just a woman, she's the woman who saved him from a life of crime.  Someone was right here when they said Jack has a Madonna complex when it comes to Rebecca; and no woman can be the Madonna...except Madonna.

That's actually a good point. He even mentions in this episode, even with them having teenage kids, that he doesn't want to go back to the man he was before Rebecca came along. That seems to imply that without Rebecca, Jack thinks that he'll go to being this criminal or something, which does put pressure onto Rebecca. After twenty years, why should he be afraid of being a bad guy? Why rely on Rebecca to keep him on the straight and narrow? What, are his kids not enough either? At the same time, I get what he's going for. He doesn't want to lose Rebecca, so he's trying to tell her that he is still there when things do work out. Honestly though, he did got a little overdramatic with the speech. 

32 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I think part of what fueled Rebecca's anger in the fight with Jack was, she knew that had her singing career taken off, she never would have married Jack and had three children.  Now, she wasn't angry because she hated Jack and the kids, but it's like looking at your life and saying, "fuck, this isn't what I wanted...how the hell did I get here?"  To me, that's a normal thought.  I've had those thoughts many times in my life; but I always have to step back, take a breath and then I realize that my life isn't as awful as I think it is.  Both Rebecca and Jack were venting, saying things both of them probably had wanted to say to each other, had bottled up for years.  

Agreed. Jack and Rebecca both said some cruel things during their fight, stuff that makes them look bad. They seem to have been building up this resentment for one another for quite a few years. It seems like they rarely fight, but when they do, it turns out like this. Now, Rebecca probably did act a bit harshly on separating from Jack, or at least kicking him out for "a few days" (which, in TV terms and maybe even real life terms, isn't just a few days). But Rebecca is a realistic thinker. While Jack acts upon his emotions, Rebecca acts based on logic. In her mind, that fight opened up all their wounds and they needed to take some time to be independent and figure out what they love about each other instead of going back to the way things were before the fight, which was not that good. 

[Cardie]

3 hours ago, elle said:

Had he been drinking heavily since they were born?

Rebecca said that he had been drinking for a year before he quit cold turkey seven years ago--the moment we saw in the episode that introduced Jack's drinking problem.

As for the time it takes to go from Philadelphia to New Jersey, Amtrak takes an hour from Philly to Trenton and an hour and a half to Newark. I don't know bus routes or speeds. Philly is just across a bridge from New Jersey places like Camden and Cherry Hills, although Randall of course lives much nearer to NYC.

[MissBanshee]

Sigh, I think Al Lowe and I are the only ones who got the "like communism, is a red herring" joke, which makes me sad.

When I watched the episode this afternoon, I already had been spoiled that Jack didn't die in the ep, so I wasn't on pins and needles for that, but The Fight wrecked me in its combination of petty snaps at each other and deep hurt that goes back so far. A real "grown up" fight, at least to me, does both of those things. And the shot of Rebecca waking up and looking out the bedroom door to see if Jack had slept in the hall like he was wont to do only to not see him there broke me too. I think, for Rebecca, that's what solidified the fact that there was real trouble. He didn't sleep in the hall.

[Trooper York]

He should have left before she got up..

[sinkwriter]

I kept waiting for Jack to blurt out his secret about having to borrow money from his abusive father. Their fight seemed to be building to that, but then he didn't really say it. I was kind of disappointed, because with all her yelling at him, she seemed to be saying that he'd done nothing and she'd sacrificed everything, when that's not completely true. He sacrificed a lot by going to an abusive father and asking for money. That was pretty enormous to me.

[DebbieM4]

20 hours ago, truebluesmoky said:

Jack literally stood his blind date up and Rebecca is getting crap for ending hers early?

I didn't really like either of them in this episode.  There was plenty to criticize about both, IMO.  The whole blind date aspect was ridiculous.  It was clear they were meeting other people, and then of course they were oh so destined for each other that the planets aligned perfectly, he saw her, she saw him, and off into the sunset they go.  Never mind the innocent others who were cruelly left in the dust.  I didn't like the way that played out at all.

And there was more to criticize about both of them - how they behaved, what they said, etc.  I'm not that invested in them to begin with.  I'm much more interested in Randall's family, interaction among the Big 3, etc.  This episode did nothing to endear me to Rebecca or to Jack.

[Bama]

I don't think Jack was drafted.  When he was giving his speech to Darryl about how he made the choice to do everything "right" because he watched his father always choose "wrong" he said -

"But me, ya know, I tried to go the other way.  Be respectful to women, do my part in 'Nam.  Just be a good man.  And look where it's gotten me.  When am I gonna get my break, Darryl?"

The fact that he framed his motivations as choosing to be opposite of his father, I took that to mean he volunteered to serve in Vietnam.

Plus, by rewatching that scene I got to ogle baby-faced Jack and his ass in those groovy tight 70s pants.

[SueB]

Meta comments:
- Well, that was ugly.  I mean the comments section here, not the episode. I think the comments here reflect EXACTLY why this episode is actually more interesting than perhaps people are giving it credit for.  There's some real division in reaction and I think that's precisely what the show was going for.  That's why this is a 'meta' comment. For weeks I've been calling this show "This is Therapy" because it often feels like there is some element in the show that really causes me to reflect on a different aspect of my life.  After consuming all 6 pages of reactions, it sure seems like some issues are being expressed.  
Meta Bottom line: perhaps the episode wasn't nearly the 'fail' some think it is IF the show elicits such strength of reaction for Team Jack vs Team Rebecca.  (Note: IF getting a 'reaction' was the point of the episode, then those who've mentioned feeling manipulated may feel like this is another manipulation.  I think it's possible that getting a reaction is a primary goal of the series. And a reaction is not only just crying.  "Anger" towards a character or even the show is a reaction.  A real "fail" is disinterest -- which has also been expressed. So, I'm not saying this was a wildly successful episode, just one with an interesting effect.) 
- I think the people promoting the show DID over-hype the episode.  I suspect they thought we would be more torn up by Jack & Rebecca's "perfect" marriage falling apart.  Personally, I saw enough issues building that them having this huge blow-out did not come as a complete shock. 

Episode comments:
Kevin: Okay - but this is pretty dangerous.  Kate: Only if you don't need it to pay the rent. Randall: You are so you're adopted Dad.  You've just had a major tragedy.  Now is not the time to decide to adopt.  You better wait 6 months on that one IMO.

Jack & Rebecca: I think the argument shows PRECISELY what the real issues are for this couple.  And I think it's very culturally relevant, especially for the time that this happened but also because it reflects issues that are still unresolved for many.

IMO Jack was right about: 1)The asshole Ben. 2)They CAN recover from this, and 3) He has a problem with alcohol. 
IMO Jack was wrong about: 1) Drinking and driving. It wasn't recognized as horrible then as it is now, but it was still wrong. 2) Belittling Rebecca's efforts to reclaim her singing as part of her life. It was CLEAR singing was part of her authentic self and when Jack rejected it as important, he rejected Rebecca's passion for that part of her. It doesn't make her a bad mother to have a non-child interest, it makes her a full human being.  Belittling that made her "just a mom" (shout-out to SPN posters!). And she saw her primary "mom" duties as starting to end.  As someone said, it was a classic mid-life moment for Rebecca. 

IMO Rebecca was right about: 1) Jack DID make a lot of the decisions without consulting her. 2) Jack's behavior was controlling and putting her into the "mold" of who he thought she should be in order to save HIM. 3) Driving him home. (Good safety call). 4) The way she dealt with Ben (she was clearly strong enough to reject his advances and could have called on the rest of the band for help if she wanted to finish the tour). 5) They, as a couple, were 'going through the motions'. Jack was providing two hours of 'quality time' and was usually tired. We saw the previous week that he dragged his feet going home. His long hours seemed more symptomatic of home issues than of 'earning all he could'. He didn't get overtime and he didn't talk about specific projects (like Randall did) that would result in a promotion, financial benefit, or even personal satisfaction. 
IMO Rebecca was wrong about: 1) Letting her resentment build up this long without ever addressing it. Rebecca should have had a sit-down with Jack YEARS ago about steamrolling her through the large decisions.  2) Belittling his drinking issue (yes, it's related to their problems but it's not a ploy). 3) Realistically thinking about how to get music back into her life. Lounge-singing is bad hours to keep AND maintain a decent relationship with the people she loves. I'm not saying she had to be the only one making adjustments, but "day job" is pretty much what Jack had. And they couldn't give that up.  By definition, the kids 'school is during the day. By pursuing her passion in a way that ONLY worked at night, that was going to ultimately be an issue**.     

Episode Bottom Line: IMO they have realistic issues consistent with where they are in their lives, who they are as people, and when (in history) these events were taking place. They've clearly been BUILDING these issues up for years and actively pretending they don't exist. For Jack it seems to have been getting more acute since he abandoned his "own business" dreams about 7 years before. For Rebecca, it's been slow burning longer but reached a crisis stage when she started to feel like the kids didn't need her. I found the episode both sad and fascinating.  It'll be a triumph if they work things out. A tragedy if they don't before Jack dies. I suspect the latter, not the former. 

 **Part of the potential tragedy seems to be that her musical passion is singing and she doesn't appear to have any formal training.  She can't teach singing or piano (or anything other instrument) as a long-term career without something other than a good voice. But she went straight back to where she left off in a job that she herself recognized she was a little older than most in doing that.  Mandy Moore has the looks and voice to pull it off, but again, it lacks long term sustainability.  She's not going to lounge-sing at 60.  Viable part-time (for a while at least) singing could have been: soloist for weddings/funerals/ceremonies, volunteer teaching a singing group at a community center (volunteer only because she had no credentials), or singing with a band that does weddings & family events.  Probability of becoming a Susan Boyle is pretty low.  And it wouldn't happen part time (which is how she, by necessity, was approaching her singing). 

Edited March 16, 2017 by SueB

[DebbieM4]

21 hours ago, breezy424 said:

I haven't looked at all the posts so maybe I'm repeating.  I just don't like the episodes that zoom in on one or two characters.  It just gets kind of boring for me.  And the poker scene?  Yawn. 

Yes, the poker scene seemed to go on and on.  I felt my mind wandering, and that has never happened before when I watch this show.  I thought a lot of this episode was too slow-moving, but the poker scene in particular was especially boring.  

21 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Maybe Randall will stay home with the baby.

I assumed that was his intent.  He's no longer working, and it would make the pieces of what's to come fall into place.  Make perfect sense to me.  (Of course I could be wrong, but I thought that's what he was going for.)

20 hours ago, cali1981 said:

I like this show as much as anyone but have been annoyed at the increasing time devoted to the Jack/Rebecca back story at the expense of the current characters.  I'm not sure what the writers were thinking about when the entire season finale was almost exclusively about J/R with only a few minutes about the siblings and even that was part a flashback.  Hopefully, next season, Jack's death will be covered early so that the show can focus on the living.

I agree.  The Jack/Rebecca backstory didn't interest me very much, and I would have loved to have seen more of everyone else - especially because this was the season finale.  The tiny little glimpses of Kate, Randall, and Kevin at the end were jarring, seemed too forced, and just served to make me feel even worse that they had been excluded.  

13 hours ago, captain1 said:

I guess from reading these comments that my opinion will be unpopular, but I don't care that we didn't learn how and when Jack dies in last night's episode.  I love all these complex characters and love to see all the interactions between them, past and present.  I will watch this show until it ends, I'm sure.  I'm invested in these characters and their lives.

I didn't care that we didn't learn anything about Jack's death either.   I didn't expect that to happen.  I did care, however, that it was hyped as being an incredibly emotional episode, and it most definitely was not.  Were we supposed to be shocked and heartbroken that Jack & Rebecca agreed to separate?  It happens to lots of couples, and sometimes it means the end of the marriage, and often it doesn't.  I wasn't the tiniest bit surprised that they had a fight and he moved out.  There have been many indications that all was not well in that marriage.  So I kept waiting for something hugely emotional/heartbreaking/revealing, but didn't get any of that.  With the characters they have, the directions they could have gone, and the choices they could have made for the final episode of the season, I think the writers really fell short.  We know they can do better, and I wish they would have.

12 hours ago, Good Queen Jane said:

I wonder if a lot of the Rebecca hate out there comes from the fact that we know she married Miguel. Would feelings be the same if present day Rebecca was the noble widow, keeping the flame alive for Jack?

I like Rebecca. But that being said, when Jack winked at her at the end, I screamed: "Don't let him walk out, you idiot!'

I'm one of those who doesn't like Rebecca, and for me it has nothing to do with Miguel.  I have no problem with Miguel, and I certainly wouldn't expect any widow to stay true to her deceased husband for the rest of her life, especially a young widow.  I also am not as enamored of Jack as many are here.  He seems to be a great Dad, but other than that, I don't see the appeal.  But either way, it's certainly fine with me if his widow moves on to a new relationship after he's gone.  And I actually think it's kind of sweet that she ended up with his closest friend.  We haven't seen any reason to believe that anything untoward was going on.  (At least not yet!!)

My problem with Rebecca is that she often behaves selfishly.  I'm not talking so much about this episode in particular, but overall from the very beginning, and it goes beyond her desire for a singing career.  It's been there all along, in several ways.  It's what she says coupled with what she does.  I also don't like Mandy Moore, and I don't think she's a good actress, so I'm sure that has something to do with it as well.  Nearly everyone on this show out-acts her by a mile, and it's hard for me to get past that.  JMO!!!

[AmandaPanda]

8 hours ago, UsernameFatigue said:

Hated this episode. OK, not hated the whole thing - the part that I didn't hate bored me to tears. I found so much of Jack's backstory hard to believe. At what age did he go to Vietnam and what age did he return? Has that ever been established? I find it hard to believe that at 28 he is living at home. These days it isn't unusual for a 28 year old to live at home since many have been raised and coddled as special snowflakes. However Jack was born in 1944 - a very different era. If he couldn't find steady work he would more likely be sharing a place with several buddies or at the very least couch surfing until he landed a place/job. The only people of my era (and I am 13 years younger than Jack) who lived at home at that age - certainly guys -  were socially backward and lived at home their whole lives. Even less unlikely that his father, who he doesn't get along with in the first place, would let him live at home. Not at all common in that era, and certainly for a son nearing 30. And most adults at that age would do anything to not live at home. (Other than rob a pub, of course). 

Regarding the poker game - I don't even play poker and would know better than to play one hand, win, and leave. Obviously Jack knows how to play poker so don't believe he would be stupid enough to walk into a game of strangers, win, and leave thinking there would be no repercussions. 

Finally, robbing a pub? Seriously? We have never seen anything from Jack that would indicate that he would commit robbery. Heck he has worked for years at a job that he doesn't really like. Kept at it when he wanted to leave because he is a responsible person. Has never shown that he would take the easy way out, let alone commit a crime of that magnitude. Not. Buying. It. Did I mention that I hated this episode? 

I totally find it believable that Jack was at home at age 28 if he's a Vietnam vet. Let's say he did enlist when he was 18. That would be 1962. The US didn't have a huge presence in Vietnam at that point, so he probably wouldn't have enlisted then unless his plan when he graduated was to join the military. Even then, he probably wouldn't have been sent right away. It's more likely that he enlisted sometime between 1966-1968 when the US had a bigger presence. In that case, he serves four years and is out between 1970-1972. Or he does get drafted in 1969 and serves two years, getting out in 1971. Regardless, he's likely only been home two years at most. Short of the education benefits offered in the GI bill (which at that time, was one month of schooling for every month served), there weren't many things in place to support veterans. A lot of those programs weren't started until the late 1970s after more veterans came home and people saw the actual aftermath. With Jack's desire to open an auto shop, sure, he could take some business classes, but nothing about Jack's character has shown me that he would be someone who would be interested in pursuing higher education. He likes to work with his hands. He likely would have found college as stifling as he found his dad's house. Add that to the fact that if it's 1972, the US was about to go into a major recession for 3 years (1973-1975). So, it's even more believable that he's having trouble finding work. 

...If you need me, I'll be over in the minutiae thread. 

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

This Is Us Closes Out A Beautiful First Season With Multiple Cliffhangers

And many, many tears.

[shoregirl]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

 
IMO Jack was wrong about: 1) Drinking and driving. It wasn't recognized as horrible then as it is now, but it was still wrong. 2)

This was 1996 not the 70s . I am the same age as the triplets and drinking and was talked about a lot back then . MADD and Sadd have been around since the early 80s. Though now the d's in Sadd stand for destructive decisions instead of drunk driving. Where I went to high school they always put a destroyed car outside the school around prom time to remind kids of the dangers of drunk driving. In fact I would guess that the mid to late 90s drinking and driving was talked about as much if not more because it was rbefore cell phones were really around so nobody was talking about texting and driving.

Back to the show this episode was very underwhelming and that is probably why I am stuck on the drinking and driving. Last week's episode would have been a much better season finale imo.

Edited March 16, 2017 by shoregirl

[BigDave]

If the season finale was last week's episode, showing Jack leaving to go see her, I think it would have been better. This one felt like a huge letdown after last week.

I knew they were not going to reveal Jack's death. They needed a hook for season 2, and Jack's character is too important to the show to write off (even if they still use him after revealing the cause of death, which I'm sure they will). At least for now the viewers still see him as "alive" because they never said how he died. Once that box is opened, there is no closing it anymore. They will have to be very careful with how they write it.

The episode itself was fine, but as a season finale, especially with all the hype, it felt unsatisfying. 

[DebbieM4]

11 hours ago, qtpye said:

Was groping ex the only other person in the band?  I could not help but think, if it really was a group then she let down her commitment by having to drive Jack back in his state.  If the group flakes out on this gig because they have no singer, it will probably kill their reputation for future work.

I immediately thought of Kevin running out and leaving Sloane stranded.  It's not okay.  In both cases, they let down completely innocent people who had every right to expect them to show up and do what they were supposed to do.   There are several ways to handle a situation like this, but taking off at the last minute is selfish, unfair, and completely unprofessional.  (Also really, really not nice.)

8 hours ago, luna1122 said:

 

(never mind.  having trouble with quote box)

7 hours ago, Katy M said:

OK, my bad then.  I thought there was actual contact.  Doesn't make that much difference, though. It's a bad idea to travel around for two weeks with an ex who wants to get in your pants, especially when your husband is already jealous of this specific man and your marriage is already on the rocks.

I don't think she necessarily had to continue the tour.  She didn't have to travel around for two weeks if she felt uncomfortable, but she certainly should have performed at least that one night.  They were apparently just minutes from showtime.  She should have done the gig, and then spoken to the band (or the leader) and explained that she couldn't continue.  There was no reason to jump ship on so little notice.  It was unfair to the rest of the band, the audience, etc, and certainly she wasn't going to have to reject his advances on stage.  It would have been considerate to give the band at least a chance at replacing her or regrouping so they could continue the tour.  Leaving them high and dry at the last minute was an awful and unnecessary thing to do.  She should have told the ex to keep his distance, done the show, and then called Jack to let him know that she was coming home.  And why.  

[methodwriter85]

11 hours ago, ZaldamoWilder said:

skincare regimen = start by being 32.   Not snark directed at you method, I kind of hate having to do 10-15 year mind leap to a woman with 3 teenagers and not a wrinkle or dark circle in sight.   She turned around in that dress and I was like not even a pocket of jiggly side boob/back fat?  come. the. hell. on.

Yeah, that was my snark. I don't think they can bear to make Mandy look old unless she's with the adult Big 3. It's still kind of hilarious though that they think this is what a normal 46-year old woman looks like during the pre-Botox era.

I do think it's weird Jack would have still been living at home, unless he very recently got from Vietnam. He wasn't making much but the cost of living in the early 1970's was a hell of a lot cheaper.

[Dowel Jones]

I'm rather curious (but not enough to warrant a backstory, mind you) about how Jack moved from auto repair into construction.  Sure, during a recession, he would take anything available, but to drop all that training from the service and start learning a new trade doesn't sound like young Jack, who really wanted that auto repair shop.

[OtterMommy]

Just now, Dowel Jones said:

I'm rather curious (but not enough to warrant a backstory, mind you) about how Jack moved from auto repair into construction.  Sure, during a recession, he would take anything available, but to drop all that training from the service and start learning a new trade doesn't sound like young Jack, who really wanted that auto repair shop.

It didn't sound like he had to learn a new trade.  He told Mrs Peabody he could do electrical, dry wall, etc....

[breezy424]

Yeah, sorry, Rebecca did not look like a woman in her mid forties from any 'era'.  And even the style choices don't fit in any era that the show is trying to sell.  The show itself overall is presenting things from eras that just don't fit 'too' often.

I don't hate Rebecca.   However, she doesn't look at the big picture.  She is too focused on a career that 'might' have been instead of focusing on what she has.  She didn't have a 'career' when she met Jack.   It seems like she has reinvented the past.  Maybe she wants more than being a stay at home mom (and this just infuriates me because a stay at home parent is one tough job and doesn't get the recognition it deserves) but she could have made it more if she decided to do that.  She's lost in blame.  And that blame is directed at Jack.  She doesn't see what Jack has sacrificed.  I'm not saying Jack is totally right (he isn't a saint).  He has his own set of problems.  

But, of all the characters, I 'feel' Rebecca the least.   Maybe it's because Mandy Moore doesn't sell me.  I can't say this about the other actors.  I can't stand Toby but the actor who plays him sells it. 

[pennben]

43 minutes ago, DebbieM4 said:

 There was no reason to jump ship on so little notice.  It was unfair to the rest of the band, the audience, etc, and certainly she wasn't going to have to reject his advances on stage.  It would have been considerate to give the band at least a chance at replacing her or regrouping so they could continue the tour.  Leaving them high and dry at the last minute was an awful and unnecessary thing to do.  She should have told the ex to keep his distance, done the show, and then called Jack to let him know that she was coming home.  And why.  

On the other hand, one could consider the advance of another band member (leader of the band?) on such short notice to them taking the stage as sexual harassment that was the cause of her not appearing and the fault lying with the aggressor, not with her.  Leaving the Jack fiasco aside, her ex was the one who put her in an untenable position and if she chose not to remain for that performance.....the unprofessional act leading to her not appearing with the band was his, not hers.

Anyway, just something to noodle on.

Edited March 16, 2017 by pennben

[DebbieM4]

Just now, pennben said:

On the other hand, one could consider the advance of another band member (leader of the band?) as sexual harassment that was the cause of her not appearing and the fault lying with the aggressor, not with her.  Leaving the Jack fiasco aside, her ex was the one who put her in an untenable position and if she chose not to remain for that performance.....the unprofessional act leading to her not appearing with the band was his, not hers.

Anyway, just something to noodle on.

Yes, of course her ex was the one at fault.   But Rebecca performing would not in any way be condoning his behavior.  There was no risk to herself, so she easily could have done it.   Leaving the tour was going to be a blow to the rest of the band, and it was certainly within her power to at least do that one performance.  They were apparently just minutes away from taking the stage.  Leaving because of sexual harassment is fine and understandable, but leaving the rest of the band high and dry so last minute was unnecessary and served no purpose.   I still think she should have done the show, and then told the band that she had to leave the tour.   That would have been far more considerate.  The band could then deal with the mess that the ex had caused, but at least she would have done the right thing by taking the stage that one last time.

[elle]

14 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Nope, not your imagination. I noticed it too. I've gotten a few unsigned rejections in my time. It's cold.

Thanks!  I thought that added to the disillusionment of receiving the rejection letter.  What we do not know is if Rebecca only sent a demo to that label.

4 hours ago, Cardie said:

Rebecca said that he had been drinking for a year before he quit cold turkey seven years ago--the moment we saw in the episode that introduced Jack's drinking problem.

As for the time it takes to go from Philadelphia to New Jersey, Amtrak takes an hour from Philly to Trenton and an hour and a half to Newark. I don't know bus routes or speeds. Philly is just across a bridge from New Jersey places like Camden and Cherry Hills, although Randall of course lives much nearer to NYC.

Thanks!  I wonder if the show will ever address that part of their lives.

I wondered about Cleveland only being two hours from where they were living.  I am also confused as to which city is the primary city for the family Pittsburgh or Philadelphia.

4 hours ago, MissBanshee said:

Sigh, I think Al Lowe and I are the only ones who got the "like communism, is a red herring" joke, which makes me sad.

I got the joke (love the movie!)!  I did not understand it in the context of the recap of the show.  Yes, Ben was not the ultimate reason for Jack's meltdown, but, Ben was not a red herring in the sense that he was "after" Rebecca as Jack worried.

29 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

It didn't sound like he had to learn a new trade.  He told Mrs Peabody he could do electrical, dry wall, etc....

Was it hard to get a contractor's license then, not enough of a market for them?   Was there no garages hiring mechanics?  I think it was big fail on the part of the writers to have Jack act so desperately in almost robbing the bar without laying the groundwork to show that he had no other options.

What became of Jack's mom?  He was so concerned about her and get stating that he "had to get her out of that house".  

[pennben]

Quote

 Leaving because of sexual harassment is fine and understandable, but leaving the rest of the band high and dry so last minute was unnecessary and served no purpose.

But many here are saying the right thing, the only thing she should have done was to leave immediately because she owes it to her marriage.  So, she's judged by some for not leaving and others for leaving.  Hmmmm, Rebecca can do no right!!  It comes down to folks saying what she should do because of her relationship with Jack, and others saying what she should do because of her relationship with the band.  I'm just saying maybe she should do what she feels is right (she gets her own agency in making a decision) balancing the two sides of relationships, having been put in this situation by an unwanted advance. 

PS I feel like I'm defending Rebecca here all the time, and lord knows she has her faults, but since all of them (taken or not taken) are fully covered by others, I'm just throwing out a different angle here for kicks, I guess.

Edited March 16, 2017 by pennben

[DebbieM4]

8 minutes ago, pennben said:

But many here are saying the right thing, the only thing she should have done was to leave immediately to save her marriage.  So, she's judged by some for not leaving and others for leaving.  Hmmmm, Rebecca can do no right!!  It comes down to folks  saying what she should do because of her relationship with Jack, and others saying what she should do because of her relationship with the band.  I'm just saying maybe she should do what she  feels is right, having been put in this situation by an unwanted advance.

PS I feel like I'm defending Rebecca here all the time, and lord knows she has her faults, but since all of them (taken or not taken) are fully covered elsewhere on the tread, I'm just throwing out a different angle here for kicks, I guess.

I think leaving to save her marriage was the right thing to do.  I just can't get onboard with leaving "immediately".  They were minutes away from performing.  She could have done the show, and then left.  That would still have been pretty soon after the incident with the ex.  I just don't see what difference it would make if it had been more immediate than that.  She could easily have done right by the band and also right by Jack.  They were about to perform - Sing and be done with it, head on home.  I would feel differently if they weren't literally minutes away from hitting the stage.

[bitchin camaro]

24 minutes ago, DebbieM4 said:

Yes, of course her ex was the one at fault.   But Rebecca performing would not in any way be condoning his behavior.  There was no risk to herself, so she easily could have done it.   Leaving the tour was going to be a blow to the rest of the band, and it was certainly within her power to at least do that one performance.  They were apparently just minutes away from taking the stage.  Leaving because of sexual harassment is fine and understandable, but leaving the rest of the band high and dry so last minute was unnecessary and served no purpose.   I still think she should have done the show, and then told the band that she had to leave the tour.   That would have been far more considerate.  The band could then deal with the mess that the ex had caused, but at least she would have done the right thing by taking the stage that one last time.

That sounds an awful lot like saying women should put up with sexual harassment so as to not upset the apple cart, and I think that's bullshit. I'm not saying that in that same situation I wouldn't still take the stage (I might) but she's under no obligation to do anything once the trust has been breached. She's not the one who did something wrong - it's not her job to fix it, unless for some reason she feels compelled to (which is absolutely a legit choice to make too.)

[jhlipton]

On 3/14/2017 at 11:50 PM, tribeca said:

I really can't stop thinking of Rebecca poor blind date and how rude she was to him.   She had to sing. 

Eh, a guy who thinks the difference between a merger and an acquisition is first date talk deserves to be stood up.

On 3/15/2017 at 0:13 AM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

There was no way that their blind dates could be with each other. Jack was set up with the granddaughter of Mrs. Peterson's friend. Rebecca was set up by her own friend, not her grandmother.

Rebecca said that her grandmother and grandma's friends wanted to set her up.  That matches with Mrs Pearson's trying to set Jack up with her friend's granddaughter.

15 hours ago, llewis823 said:

It would be like people who get bunnies for their kids for Easter and then the newness wears off and they have to try to find them a home. Not that Randall would ever change his mind about an adopted child and halt the adoption, but I meant he initial hype to adopt is like the bunny comparison.

It's funny because I was going to post this as Randall's "I want a puppy!" moment.

9 hours ago, Calamity Jane said:

I don't think 1969 could be right.  Men were subject to the draft as soon as they turned 18.  About 1969 or so the system changed to a lottery thing.  I was in college at that time, and until the lottery, you were granted an exemption for being in college.  I well remember seniors getting the letter from Selective Service.  My boyfriend at the time got a bad lottery number and was called up, but flunked the physical because of a back injury from trying to run the hurdles!  But men were drafted well before the age of 25!  That might even have been the cut-off age.  An awful lot of the men who died over there were really boys in their teens.  

I was born Dec 1952.  The year I became eligible (1980) was the year they ended college deferments -- they need more meat for the sausage-grinder.  I lucked out by being 4-F as there was NO WAY I was going to Nam (and my parents -- including my Navy dad -- supported me).

7 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I'm glad I don't pay attention to the hype..

Same here.

[Dowel Jones]

1 hour ago, OtterMommy said:

It didn't sound like he had to learn a new trade.

I was thinking more of the long term development of his construction work, where he had become a foreman and was actually dreaming of starting his own company with Miguel.  He basically tossed the idea of auto mechanic somewhere along the line.

Quote

The year I became eligible (1980)

Do you mean 1970?

Edited March 16, 2017 by Dowel Jones

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, breezy424 said:

Yeah, sorry, Rebecca did not look like a woman in her mid forties from any 'era'.  And even the style choices don't fit in any era that the show is trying to sell.  The show itself overall is presenting things from eras that just don't fit 'too' often.

I don't hate Rebecca.   However, she doesn't look at the big picture.  She is too focused on a career that 'might' have been instead of focusing on what she has.  She didn't have a 'career' when she met Jack.   It seems like she has reinvented the past.  Maybe she wants more than being a stay at home mom (and this just infuriates me because a stay at home parent is one tough job and doesn't get the recognition it deserves) but she could have made it more if she decided to do that.  She's lost in blame.  And that blame is directed at Jack.  She doesn't see what Jack has sacrificed.  I'm not saying Jack is totally right (he isn't a saint).  He has his own set of problems.  

But, of all the characters, I 'feel' Rebecca the least.   Maybe it's because Mandy Moore doesn't sell me.  I can't say this about the other actors.  I can't stand Toby but the actor who plays him sells it. 

I don't like Moore.   I think she's hammy.  But I'm on her side of this argument all the way.  I thought she was going to cross over into 'being a mom isn't enough' in a way that made me dislike her, because I treasure that role, but for me it didn't go there.  When she said the kids were teens and didn't need her and Jack was never around, I understood.  I have a teen and it's spring break and I've hardly seen her.  If I had no job(s) and an absent spouse, I'd be bored stiff.  And I see no harm in the singing stuff, even with Ben in the picture, but I have no use for anyone who doesn't trust me.  

And I kind of liked the "you're not an alcoholic" and comparing him to his dad.  Because he's kind of a crybaby blowhard.  

49 minutes ago, pennben said:

On the other hand, one could consider the advance of another band member (leader of the band?) on such short notice to them taking the stage as sexual harassment that was the cause of her not appearing and the fault lying with the aggressor, not with her.  Leaving the Jack fiasco aside, her ex was the one who put her in an untenable position and if she chose not to remain for that performance.....the unprofessional act leading to her not appearing with the band was his, not hers.

Anyway, just something to noodle on.

Having said the above, I also fault Rebecca for Ben thinking she might want a kiss right then.  She was practically crooning to him on that v-day song and here, she's clutching his hands low by their groins, in her slinky gown, closing her eyes and acting all dreamy/swoony with him totally up in her personal space.  There's a way you treat ex-boyfriend coworkers who are hoping for a crack in your armor and that wasn't it.  I've never clutched anyone's hands that way I wasn't sleeping with.  Probably not even then.  

Thanks for the warnings about the poker scene.  It even took too long to fast-fwd that.  

The good:  Sets, costumes, casting, acting, photography, music

The bad:  Writing.  If that had been the pilot it would've been the last one I watched.  

Laugh #1:  In an opening scene, Milo is shot from above rolling out from under the SS, clean-shaven, and he flashes a smile.  So, so cheesey.  It's like they thought all the women needed a moment to ooh and aaahh or something?  

They're all jerks with horrible social skills.  I don't care how dull your date is, unless he's a true pig, eat your food and say thank you and good night.  No one just suddenly "needs to sing" in the middle of dinner unless you're in a musical.  

I'm not thrilled we get to look forward to now two actors doing 4-second 'songs' next seasons.  Actually, Moon Shadow only got about four notes, didn't it?  Odd, while the poker game was like 6 minutes long.  Maybe they get the rights cheap if the snippet is so small you can barely recognize it?  

Edited March 16, 2017 by Guest

[DebbieM4]

Just now, bitchin camaro said:

That sounds an awful lot like saying women should put up with sexual harassment so as to not upset the apple cart, and I think that's bullshit. I'm not saying that in that same situation I wouldn't still take the stage (I might) but she's under no obligation to do anything once the trust has been breached. She's not the one who did something wrong - it's not her job to fix it, unless for some reason she feels compelled to (which is absolutely a legit choice to make too.)

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.  She is of course under no obligation to do anything.  He was out of line 1000%.   I'm not saying she needs to "fix" anything that he did.   That's all on him, and the band should know about it, and should deal with it.  I just see no reason why she couldn't take the stage that one last time.  It's not as though she would be working alone with him in a conference room or something, in which case I would absolutely say she should leave immediately.  In this case, she understandably would no longer want to be away on tour with him.  So she shouldn't be.  Pulling out of the tour is appropriate.  Running off when the performance is minutes away makes no sense to me.  (It also didn't seem that she was ready to run off until Jack showed up, and then she turned her anger toward him.  But perhaps that's a different topic!)

[Cardie]

39 minutes ago, elle said:

I wondered about Cleveland only being two hours from where they were living.  I am also confused as to which city is the primary city for the family Pittsburgh or Philadelphia.

According to Google, driving time between Pittsburgh and Cleveland is two hours and eleven minutes. Throughout the Jack-Rebecca flashbacks, the family has lived in Pittsburgh. The only person to live in Philadelphia is William. The show has not explained when or why he left Pittsburgh--where he still was when Randall was 8--for Philly, although it wouldn't be feasible for his cat commutes if he lived as far from NJ as Pittsburgh. Currently Rebecca/Miguel must live near Randall; perhaps they moved to be closer to the grandchildren. (Many retired couples do.) Kevin and Kate oscillate between NYC and LA

I wonder what sort of life Rebecca leads with Miguel.  Is it just shopping and matinees of Hamilton when not visiting grandkids? Freed from Jack, Rebecca doesn't seem much more fulfilled but to have turned into the suburban matron her mother was.

Quote

Running off when the performance is minutes away makes no sense to me.

She had to set an example for Kevin to emulate. (I'll bet Fogelman wouldn't be amused if one of his cast decided to bail a minute before the day's shooting was to begin.)

Edited March 16, 2017 by Cardie

[Calamity Jane]

13 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

I was born Dec 1952.  The year I became eligible (1980) was the year they ended college deferments -- they need more meat for the sausage-grinder.  I lucked out by being 4-F as there was NO WAY I was going to Nam (and my parents -- including my Navy dad -- supported me).

 

I think you meant 1970, but yeah, that was the year.  My brother was born in 1944 and kept flunking out of college, so he would be vulnerable, but was medically ineligible.  My parents lived in France in the late 40's and thereby knew a lot more about the Vietnam conflict than most Americans and felt it was a miserable, unwinnable morass, and I remember my mom saying she would drive my brother to Canada herself if necessary.  

[DebbieM4]

12 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

 

Having said the above, I also fault Rebecca for Ben thinking she might want a kiss right then.  She was practically crooning to him on that v-day song and here, she's clutching his hands low by their groins, in her slinky gown, closing her eyes and acting all dreamy/swoony with him totally up in her personal space.  There's a way you treat ex-boyfriend coworkers who are hoping for a crack in your armor and that wasn't it.  I've never clutched anyone's hands that way I wasn't sleeping with.  Probably not even then.  

They're all jerks with horrible social skills.  I don't care how dull your date is, unless he's a true pig, eat your food and say thank you and good night.  No one just suddenly "needs to sing" in the middle of dinner unless you're in a musical.  t

 

Yes, I noticed that too.  The guy was still out-of bounds since he knows she's married, but she was pretty provocative.  They never should have been that close together to begin with.  I thought she seemed a little into it until she wasn't.  And then she clearly wasn't.  Not one of this show's best moments because I don't think it conveyed what they wanted it to convey.

And yes, the blind date guy wasn't a monster or a creep.  Just not right for her.  Many of us have been there.  At the very least, be polite and cut it short in a semi-believable way.  What she did was rude, selfish, and unkind.

[bitchin camaro]

14 minutes ago, DebbieM4 said:

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.  She is of course under no obligation to do anything.  He was out of line 1000%.   I'm not saying she needs to "fix" anything that he did.   That's all on him, and the band should know about it, and should deal with it.  I just see no reason why she couldn't take the stage that one last time.  It's not as though she would be working alone with him in a conference room or something, in which case I would absolutely say she should leave immediately.  In this case, she understandably would no longer want to be away on tour with him.  So she shouldn't be.  Pulling out of the tour is appropriate.  Running off when the performance is minutes away makes no sense to me.  (It also didn't seem that she was ready to run off until Jack showed up, and then she turned her anger toward him.  But perhaps that's a different topic!)

I get what you're saying, and like you, I thought it looked like she was going to go on with the show until Jack showed up and showed his ass. I just can't get behind blaming the victim (so to speak) for inconveniencing others when she wasn't the one at fault. I guess I just get a little bit prickly at the notion that a woman is expected to put on a good face no matter what. 

And if she did, the same exact people (not you) would be giving her a hard time for that too.

[pennben]

22 minutes ago, DebbieM4 said:

It also didn't seem that she was ready to run off until Jack showed up

I do agree with that, I too felt like she was going to stay until Jack vomited all over the shit show that was occurring:) Then she decided 'screw it, let's go drunk bag, get in the car we're going home' as the best resolution.

I just haven't liked the "here's what she has to do for the band" versus the "here's what she has to do for her marriage" lines of discussion.  Both are compelling relationships in different ways to her, and she gets to balance them as she sees appropriate, and yes, she gets to decide what is best for her in all of that.

PS My laundry is done, I'm not getting in to the art of a performance of a song versus 'she was leading him on' discussion that has popped up:) He knew his place.

Edited March 16, 2017 by pennben

[Anela]

On 3/14/2017 at 10:05 PM, againstthewind said:

Realistically, I know why they didn't tell us how Jack died. However, I'm pissed we didn't even get a crumble of a hint.

Still cried though, when Jack was lamenting how he was a good person that didn't get breaks, and then at the end when he told Rebecca that she was his big break. And yes, that fight was a great bit of writing. It was incredibly uncomfortable to watch.

Marry me, Milo.

That made me cry, too. I've heard a few men say things like that about their wives - like that actor whose name I suddenly can't remember, who is married to Emily Blunt. John Krasinski. My dad is the same way about my mum. She's gone now, about nine months, and he told me earlier on, "After our first kiss,  I felt like my feet didn't touch the ground, until I got home." This show reminds me so much of them at times. 

I've avoided a few episodes, like the one with Randall on the road trip with his dad. When I realized what was happening, I had to switch it off. Too soon for me, after losing mum. 

[Guest]

I just rewatched to see if I imagined it that Rebecca was flirty-ish.  Moore even puckered up when he leaned in.  One thing the show does well is walk a tightrope between two different interpretations.  

I think she should've sang the set because Ben didn't victimize her.  He misread her signals and made a pass, she shut it down, and he immediately apologized.  We'd never seen her have to tell him to back off before, it wasn't a quid pro quo or condition of employment situation, it was just a clumsy pass.  No one would say Jack was victimized by his female coworker's clumsy pass.  I guess her name isn't on the door but to me the situations aren't all that different.  

Not siding with Ben, he was douchey, but I just don't think he victimized her.  But assuming she's traveling alone with these guys for x weeks and it was right before the set, it was really stupid of him, mixed signals or not.  I wouldn't blame her for staying or leaving.  I think a career as a lounge performer would probably benefit from thicker skin but I don't fault her either way.  

Edited March 16, 2017 by Guest