S01.E03: Living The Dream

[Atlanta]

Don't get the creepster vibe at all from Ed. IMO, he knows the trials that his wife has gone through with her and until recently, we assume, that he's been the main father figure in her life. Now Nathan is wanting to be super dad. He seemed world-weary to me.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I think Ed loves Abigail like she's his daughter as much as Chloe is, but because Nathan is present (at least physically within a few miles, if not emotionally present) Ed is hesitant to overstep his bounds. He has known Abigail since she was about Chloe's age and he has seen her grow up from a little girl who was very close to Madeline (at least according to Madeline) to a teenager who enjoys pushing Madeline's buttons. I think he sees the frustration from both Madeline and Abigail about their deteriorating mother/daughter relationship but doesn't feel it's his place to interfere. I think he knows that the best thing he can do is be there for either of them when they are upset about the other, which seems to be more frequent lately. So when he was working on his laptop and he saw Abigail outside, I thought he was just trying to gauge what was going on with her in that moment (which is a normal thing to do when you live with a moody teenage girl), as in: Is she staring at the ocean sullenly because she's mad about something? Or is she just on the deck because it's nice outside? Is she pouting about some perceived slight from her mom again? Is she plotting world domination?

17 hours ago, Bizabra said:

I like Laura Dern, but she looks so limp and droopy. I'm always thinking she needs to stand up straighter and get a back bone.

It's common with taller women (especially those who had their growth spurt very early n puberty) to slouch and I totally get why, but I often want to poke Laura Dern in the middle of her upper back and pull her shoulders back and tell her to be proud of her height!

[QuinnM]

Elvis and Audrey - a little weird but finally the opening sequence of all of the women makes sense.  And that begs the question, why is Maddie not in Audrey regalia?

[Gem 10]

On March 8, 2017 at 1:40 PM, MaryWebGirl said:

Wary! That exactly describes how I read that look. I'm not a mom but I imagine that that's how parents of teenagers feel a lot of the time--wondering what on Earth is coming next.

I watched that scene a few times and didn't get ANY vibe from Ed ... Just Abigail taking pictures standing on a chair.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

On 3/5/2017 at 11:26 PM, lmsweb said:

Zoe Kravitz looks so much like her mother that I've had to do a double take a few times.

Her resemblance to her mother along with the fact that Lisa Bonet never ages has made me forget a few times that it is Zoe Kravitz I'm watching and not Lisa Bonet. They could pass not just for sisters, but twins.

On 3/6/2017 at 0:16 PM, Giesela said:

I saw Kidman on Graham Norton, I can't remember what she was wearing but she looked like about a million miles of leg. At the Oscars she looked so pale she was translucent.  So pale you wondered if she painted herself white.  

So....my skin is the same color as Nicole's. We are naturally that "pale" ("fair" is the less-offensive term, BTW). Skin that fair is very susceptible to skin cancer and pre-mature aging.  I have to avoid spending any significant amount of time in the sun from around 10am-2pm (even with sunscreen on) because of how easily I burn, freckle, & will get skin damage that could lead to skin cancer. I've read interviews where Nicole talks about avoiding the sun and how hard it was to have to stay inside during the day when other kids could go out and spend the day in the sun.

As for she looked like "you wondered if she painted herself white"....I know you don't mean to be offensive....but would you ever say about a dark-skinned black actress that you wondered if she painted herself black? People with Nicole's skintone can't naturally tan. They only burn in the sun or in tanning booths. Her options are orangey fake tan or her natural fair skin.  Without the lighting experts who work on the movies and films she's in, it's very pronounced how fair her skin is (like on Graham Norton or at the Oscars). But shouldn't we all be proud of and not knocked for the natural color of our skin that we are born with? I say go Nicole - seeing an actress who was "so pale you wondered if she painted herself white" (as you said) made it a lot easier for me as a kid with the same skin tone to feel like I might be pretty to someone, despite kids always teasing me for being very cautious about avoiding sunburns and for not being tan.  (sorry...rant over)

Edited March 10, 2017 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

5 hours ago, QuinnM said:

Elvis and Audrey - a little weird but finally the opening sequence of all of the women makes sense.  And that begs the question, why is Maddie not in Audrey regalia?

I would totally show up to this dressed as Ann-Margaret (but insist hubby follow the Elvis guideline).

What is Maddie dressed as? She's wearing some sort of blue carnival mask & feather earrings, I think????  

Edited March 10, 2017 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[Clanstarling]

14 minutes ago, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

Her resemblance to her mother along with the fact that Lisa Bonet never ages has made me forget a few times that it is Zoe Kravitz I'm watching and not Lisa Bonet. They could pass not just for sisters, but twins.

So....my skin is the same color as Nicole's. We are naturally that "pale" ("fair" is the less-offensive term, BTW). Skin that fair is very susceptible to skin cancer and pre-mature aging.  I have to avoid spending any significant amount of time in the sun from around 10am-2pm (even with sunscreen on) because of how easily I burn, freckle, & will get skin damage that could lead to skin cancer. I've read interviews where Nicole talks about avoiding the sun and how hard it was to have to stay inside during the day when other kids could go out and spend the day in the sun.

As for she looked like "you wondered if she painted herself white"....I know you don't mean to be offensive....but would you ever say about a dark-skinned black actress that you wondered if she painted herself black?  Nicole can't naturally tan. She only burns. Her options are orangey-fake tan or her natural fair skin.  Without the lighting experts who work on the movies and films she's in, it's very pronounced how fair her skin is (like on Graham Norton or at the Oscars). But shouldn't we all be proud of and not knocked for the natural color of our skin that we are born with? I say go Nicole - seeing an actress who was "so pale you wondered if she painted herself white" (as you said) made it a lot easier for me as a kid with the same skin tone to feel like I might be pretty to someone, despite kids always teasing me for being very cautious about avoiding sunburns and for not being tan.  (sorry...rant over)

Thanks for the perspective. For me, when it comes to Nicole, it's more that the colors she wears at the Oscars tend to blend with her skin tone rather than take advantage of it. IMO, a little more color would look good on her. Then again, I tend to prefer color rather than champagne or beige on any woman.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Clanstarling

[Edie]

43 minutes ago, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

I would totally show up to this dressed as Ann-Margaret (but insist hubby follow the Elvis guideline).

What is Maddie dressed as? She's wearing some sort of blue carnival mask & feather earrings, I think????  

She's wearing Holly Golightly's sleep clothes.

[LIMOM]

45 minutes ago, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

I would totally show up to this dressed as Ann-Margaret (but insist hubby follow the Elvis guideline).

What is Maddie dressed as? She's wearing some sort of blue carnival mask & feather earrings, I think????  

She is dressed as Holly from breakfast at tiffanys.

[lmsweb]

I kind of love that Maddie chose this outfit instead of the more iconic look of the black dress and pearls.

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

So....my skin is the same color as Nicole's. We are naturally that "pale" ("fair" is the less-offensive term, BTW). Skin that fair is very susceptible to skin cancer and pre-mature aging.  I have to avoid spending any significant amount of time in the sun from around 10am-2pm (even with sunscreen on) because of how easily I burn, freckle, & will get skin damage that could lead to skin cancer.

That's me to a T.

[Mabinogia]

Me too. As a kid I went from Casper to Lobster in about 15 minutes. I hate summer because I have to spend it covered in sunscreen even if I'm just going to the grocery store. I love Kidman's pale elegance. When I dye my hair red I've been compared to her, tall, slender and fair. It is a look that works well with a character like Celeste who is very restrained. I think the casting is amazing on the show. Each woman embodies their character IMO. I can't see Madeline as anyone other than Reece Witherspoon who does that kind of hyper-energized, bulldog character. I've never thought about Laura Dern either way, she's always just been an actor who exists to me, but she has the presence of a powerful woman, tall, elegant, but grittier than Celeste. You can tell Renata lives in a man's world but she's still a woman. Even Woodley has a kind of tough but fragile thing that works for Jane the rape survivor.

I also can't say enough about the kids. What a great bunch of tiny little actors they found.

I'm pretty sure that Zoe Kravitz is a clone. The resemblance between her and her mother is amazing. She is a stunning young woman and I kind of feel bad for her. It can't be easy being this young, carefree spirit in a town full of so much tension. I loved when she gave Madeline that big old hug. Maddie had no idea what to do with that. kill em with kindness Bonnie. Kill em with kindness.

[QuinnM]

Quote

She is dressed as Holly from breakfast at tiffanys.

To all who figured this one - thanks! 

[nara]

Is Renata wearing the Ascot dress from My Fair Lady?

[Atlanta]

Zoe has inherited some amazing genes. Neither of her parents have aged and both are extremely attractive. Lisa could pass as Zoe's sister. I want to know their skincare secrets. :D Lenny has drunk from the fountain of youth as well. I wonder what Audrey she'll be. Did Hepburn ever play a hippy? I know she was a beatnik in Funny Face.

[nara]

1 minute ago, Atlanta said:

Zoe has inherited some amazing genes. Neither of her parents have aged and both are extremely attractive. Lisa could pass as Zoe's sister. I want to know their skincare secrets. :D Lenny has drunk from the fountain of youth as well. I wonder what Audrey she'll be. Did Hepburn ever play a hippy? I know she was a beatnik in Funny Face.

from the credits, she looks like Audrey from the Embassy Ball in My Fair Lady

[Guest]

I'm glad you guys figured that out.  I was thinking, "Why does an elementary school have a fundraiser that is trivia night AND a masquerade party (Maddy's mask) AND an Elvis/Audrey theme?!?"  

[Atlanta]

I can't wait to see Ed and Perry in Elvis garb. Bwawhahah!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

10 hours ago, lmsweb said:

I kind of love that Maddie chose this outfit instead of the more iconic look of the black dress and pearls.

I love that Madeline chose an Audrey look that is less iconic but also not glamorous or overtly sexy. 

[chocolatine]

19 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I love that Madeline chose an Audrey look that is less iconic but also not glamorous or overtly sexy. 

Has Audrey Hepburn ever had an overtly sexy look? I haven't seen all of her movies, but as far as I remember, her looks tended towards bohemian/quirky or elegant/classy.

[mochamajesty]

11 hours ago, Atlanta said:

Zoe has inherited some amazing genes. Neither of her parents have aged and both are extremely attractive. Lisa could pass as Zoe's sister. I want to know their skincare secrets. :D

1

1

Melanin. :-}

I second thanking the movie buffs who made sense of the cast conga line. Now I want to watch Breakfast at Tiffany's.

For all of the complaining Madeline did when she found out about the theme, she came up with a great costume.

Edited March 11, 2017 by mochamajesty

[Cardie]

11 hours ago, Atlanta said:

Lenny has drunk from the fountain of youth as well.

Not being up on the Kravitz family history, I thought Zoe must be Lenny's sister.

[itainttippithebird]

  On 3/9/2017 at 11:12 AM, Winston9-DT3 said:

I think if she'd fallen in love with her stepfather and realized how f'ed up that is and moved out over it, she wouldn't be happy.  

But then she wouldn't have gone all Lolita. That character is a "nymphet" who loves seducing older men.

But even Lolita realizes at the end of the book how fucked up it all was...

[jeansheridan]

The show is finding its grove.  But does anyone else have an issue that such a female centric show was written by a man and directed by a man?  I ask because the themes are mostly so female...getting older, recovering from date rape (which happens more often to women), the shame of domestic violence.  Competitive mothers.  

Maybe Witherspoon and Kidman were right to recruit two men with strong track records but I think having a woman screenwriter for some of the eps would have offered a different emphasis.  

It was this episode the most that struck me as maybe needing a woman's touch.  The post rape walk on the beach was a bit too.pat.  Too pretty.  

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, jeansheridan said:

The show is finding its grove.  But does anyone else have an issue that such a female centric show was written by a man and directed by a man?  I ask because the themes are mostly so female...getting older, recovering from date rape (which happens more often to women), the shame of domestic violence.  Competitive mothers.  

The book that the show is based on was written by a woman, and the author also has a producer credit.

[Guest]

I think too they offered the screenwriting to Liane Moriarty, the book author, and she turned it down.  The fact they chose David E. Kelley, who is (or was) kind of known as the one male writer in Hollywood who really writes for women well, impressed me.  And the director Vallee did a great job with Wild, which was also about women and some of their deepest issues.  

1 hour ago, jeansheridan said:

The post rape walk on the beach was a bit too.pat.  Too pretty.

I've been hoping that is just a metaphor and didn't really happen.  Her taking off down the beach is a little odd but then his tracks being there and then disappearing?  It just works better as a metaphor for me... She wants to run from the event but the memories pursue her, but she also kind of wants to find him to make him pay, but she can't.

[Cardie]

24 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

The fact they chose David E. Kelley, who is (or was) kind of known as the one male writer in Hollywood who really writes for women well, impressed me.

Lately Kelley has not written women well at all, imo. Or rather, he has shown a lot of sympathy for imperfect men who treat women badly yet still retain their affection. I have a really bad taste in my mouth on this score from Goliath.

[jeansheridan]

Quote

I've been hoping that is just a metaphor and didn't really happen.  Her taking off down the beach is a little odd but then his tracks being there and then disappearing?  It just works better as a metaphor for me..

I was taking it literally but I guess the show does have "fantasy" sequences like the home invasion sequence which was really quite scary.  Especially for its realism.  A determined person who wasn't being sneaky could so easily break into a typical place.  Shudder.  I like your take on the sequence and will accept it for now.

I'm not a huge fan of David E. Kelly.  I have read the book (and will avoid all spoilers).  But I can see some minor, subtle changes he's made I don't think Liane would have made.  He is a very professional writer however and I think overall he's doing a good adaptation.  I don't expect movies and books to match perfectly.  I don't think they should really.  They're two different art forms.  

Edited March 13, 2017 by jeansheridan

[Razzberry]

Kelley and Michelle Pfeiffer live in Woodside, a small town about 50 miles north of Monterey.   Wealthy but not ostentatious.  A picture of its "downtown" business district.

[Giesela]

On 3/6/2017 at 1:58 PM, teddysmom said:

He was designing a new site for a pharma company, so I think he's doing okay.  Designing web sites that complicated is no easy task and takes months.  Lots of beta testing, getting input from the company, etc. Hours can really add up. 

Amazing since so many big companies websites suck.  I know web site designers in medium to smallish cities in the midwest barely make a living. 

I didn't like Wild the book or the movie. Don't like the author either. 

Edited March 13, 2017 by Giesela

[chocolatine]

3 minutes ago, Giesela said:

I know web site designers in medium to smallish cities in the midwest barely make a ;iving. 

There are certainly exceptions, but I also find it hard to believe that Ed is making the kind of money it takes to afford beach-front property in California. It would be one thing if he owned a large web design business and had people working for him, but it looks like he's a freelancer and builds the websites himself. Maybe he's just really fast and turns over multiple projects each week. Madeline is definitely not making a lot working part-time for a local theatre company, and by the look of her she spends it all on fashion.

[scrb]

2 hours ago, Razzberry said:

Kelley and Michelle Pfeiffer live in Woodside, a small town about 50 miles north of Monterey.   Wealthy but not ostentatious.  A picture of its "downtown" business district.

Actually a lot of tech company executives live around Woodside.  Larry Ellison has a big compound up there.

Speaking of public schools in affluent areas, there are stories about very big fundraising events for the local school there, with Meg Whitman and other CEOs doing auctions.

That sleepy downtown area also has some high-end or expensive restaurants up there.

It wasn't always that affluent an area until the mid '90s on.  It gives tech CEOs the ability to have privacy but they're only 10-20 minutes up or down the freeway from their offices.

[Andromeda]

I don't remember all the character names. I think Nicole Kidman's husband (Skarsgard) raped Shaieene Woodley's character. Which increases the number of potential murder victims, to any of those three as well as pretty much anyone else...

[CKTV123]

On 3/10/2017 at 9:11 AM, QuinnM said:

Elvis and Audrey - a little weird but finally the opening sequence of all of the women makes sense.  And that begs the question, why is Maddie not in Audrey regalia?

Hi. She is. She's dressed as Audrey Hepburn in one scene from Breakfast At Tiffany's when she oversleeps and gets awakened by a knock at the door. 

[dcalley]

On 3/10/2017 at 5:10 PM, Mabinogia said:

I hate summer because I have to spend it covered in sunscreen even if I'm just going to the grocery store.

That's me as well.

Here's Lisa in High Fidelity. The main male characters are mesmerized by her in that scene, and I couldn't help but think of it when Bonnie was dancing.

Edited March 15, 2017 by dcalley

[Mabinogia]

Damn, that could be an outtake from Bonnie's dancing scene. It is amazing how much they look alike. And both stunning!

[Clanstarling]

It's funny, that although I certainly see Bonnie's resemblance to Lisa, I see so much of her father in her as well that I don't have any trouble distinguishing them. Guess I've paid more attention to Lenny over the years.

[DearEvette]

Prior to this episode I didn't 100% like any of these characters except maybe Celeste & the kids

- I hated Perry

- Jane seemed too much of a blank an d a bit of a cipher to be such a main character

- Renata just seemed like she was laboring under a massive case of imposter's syndrome and was a little too unsympathetic to be likable even when she was in the right

- I thought Madeleine was bitter and needlessly confrontational about everything

- Bonnie and Nathan have little to no agency and were being interpreted by everyone around them so it is hard to determine just what their motives are.  They are not active participants in this story at all, but rather passive recipients of the other characters'  (mostly Madeleine's) story fall out.

- I found Ed to be passive aggressive

But this episode shifted my perceptions quite a bit

- Still like Celeste the most and it is probably due to how well Nicole Kidman is selling just how utterly complex it is to be  a vicitm of DV

- Hate Perry even more  Man, what a fucking sociopath.  That therpy session was a masterclass in the con of self denial. But I have to hand it to Scarsgaard man he is totally selling Perry as an abuser.

- Jane is still the weakest link in the ensemble, but I feel a bit more empathy toward her after her revelation.

- Sorry but my estimation of Renata went way up.  I know I should hate the mommy one-upmanship, but man Laura Dern is brilliant in this role and I thought the party was fab and like the woman said, the Frozen gift bags were the perfect touch.  Also the fact that Bonnie and Skye ( who was pointedly NOT invited to Disney on Ice) were prominently on display at Amabelle's party added to the clapback toward Madeleine. Such fabulous shade.  Also she has some great lines.

- Still think Madeleine is an "itty bitty ball of rage" LOL.  And still thinks she is just really unpleasant and way too bitter a lot of times, taking out her own feelings of anger and dissatisfaction on the wrong people.  But I do like her relationship with Jane and her reaction to Jane's revelation softened me quite a bit toward her.  I don't like her quite as much as I think others on this board do but like jane this episode did make me see her more sympathetically.

- Bonnie and Nathan are still distressingly underdeveloped I mean both of these characters have probably had a total of maybe 10 minutes of screen time combined over the first three episodes of the show. But even so I liked them a little more in this one.  I feel like they are both awkwardly trying.  But it doesn't help that they still have no agency and as such their motivations are still being largely seen through the lens of Madeleine's larger, more complex story and even through the observations of unreliable third party narrators.  Bonnie's dance was no more salacious that Renata's since they were dancing together. I do find it interesting that the final police interviews of the ep make pointedly name check Bonnie specifically in addition to Celeste, Maddy and Jane.  It make sense that those three would have a light shone of them since they are the main players, but Bonnie is very small bit player.  Makes me wonder? Where does she fit in the murder because it is obvious by her inclusion in that last little bit that she has some larger role later.

- For some reason this episode made me like Ed less.  I find him whiny and even more passive aggressive.

[Atlanta]

Lisa is stunning. Jason Momoa is a lucky dude. Her genes must contain glitter and gold, or something. lol

[chocolatine]

On 3/15/2017 at 0:32 PM, Clanstarling said:

It's funny, that although I certainly see Bonnie's resemblance to Lisa, I see so much of her father in her as well that I don't have any trouble distinguishing them. Guess I've paid more attention to Lenny over the years.

Yup, I've definitely paid more attention to Lenny as well. He's a dreamboat.

On 3/15/2017 at 5:27 PM, Atlanta said:

Lisa is stunning. Jason Momoa is a lucky dude.

Jason Momoa is not bad-looking himself.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, chocolatine said:

Yup, I've definitely paid more attention to Lenny as well. He's a dreamboat.

Jason Momoa is not bad-looking himself.

Oh yeah, Jason's not too shabby.

[Atlanta]

I'm not sure the world can handle those fab genes. :D

[madam magpie]

On 3/5/2017 at 7:37 PM, mochamajesty said:

Ed was looking at Abigail very inappropriately when she was outside.

This creeped me out too. It was just a flash, such a quick moment, and I initially thought I was reading too much into it. Not so much anymore.

I know she likes the sex and they have kids together, but Celeste really needs to leave her husband. I'm stunned by how many people buy into Perry's bullshit. Then again, so does she, and that kind of abuse happens all the time.

I'm not sure Jane really shot anyone. Seems more like she was scared and imagining.

I'm much more interested in this show than I expected to be...

Edited March 26, 2017 by madam magpie

[methodwriter85]

On 3/6/2017 at 11:51 AM, Giesela said:

I think we can safely assume that every emotion Renata subscribes to Amabelle, so sensitive, so smart, so crushed about her besties etc., are really how SHE feels and thinks.  Does she even see Amabelle as her own person?  I question that. 

Yea, I get whiffs of Elle Woods a lot too but I'm not sure if its Reese or the character has organic similarities of Elle grownup.

I just thought it was so pathetic how Renata basically broke down and tried to bribe Maddie into dropping the Frozen plan. As we see at the party, plenty of kids showed up and Amabella had a great time. But it wasn't enough for Renata- she needed to have Chloe there, because Chloe is the Queen B of their grade and her daughter must be friends with the most popular girls at school.

Jane's recounting of the rape was well-done. I think it could have been a melodramatic reveal but the show really knew how to hold back. And it was sweet that Maddie managed to hold it together before breaking down on the side of the street.

Quote

Yup, I've definitely paid more attention to Lenny as well. He's a dreamboat.

Zoe inherited her mother's face but she inherited her dad's beautiful complexion. Lisa Bonet is a pretty woman but she's always had this gray undertone to her skin. Zoe's undertone is more of a gold like her father's.

It's funny to look at her and think, "You are the reason why Lisa left A Different World, which became a much better show after."

Edited April 23, 2017 by methodwriter85

[Crs97]

I just starting getting HBO and am now finally watching this!  I already know the outcome, but Mr. CRS is unspoiled so that is fun.

One thing I noticed is that the only ones saying the party was better than the skating are the Team Renata parents who attended the party.  I am sure both groups had fun, and I am glad Amabelle enjoyed her birthday.  Next time wash the cake topper before wearing it.  I refuse to give into the favor bags craze.  You know what the prize is for attending my child’s party?  You got to have fun and eat cake.  Bye now.

Ed didn’t seem creepy to me.  He looked pensive and unsure whether to talk to Abigail about the situation.  This person is causing your wife distress, but you are only the stepdad and have to be careful of boundaries so how do you handle it?  I thought he was just pensive.  When Abigail asked if Ed really threatened her dad, it was confirmation that Nathan is a putz for discussing it with her.  I agree with an earlier poster; so much for Bonnie’s “my family would never be party to unwanted touching.”  Not that the hug wasn’t sweet, but she should have asked.

[Magic]

On 3/5/2017 at 8:08 PM, archer1267 said:

I wasn't watching Jane's flashback scene on the beach that closely, but the man's footprints abruptly ended on the sand, didn't they? It made me wonder if he had drowned. Did anyone else see it that way?

I couldn't tell what the meaning in those footprint scenes were.  They went to great lengths to show the rapist's shoes in the room had that circle on the bottom that matched with the tracks in the sand.  What was Jane going to do, go drown with him?  

I would be running the other way.  

Except for the footprints, I wondered if she was going out to drown herself.

Maybe it was just a dream she had after that incident?

[MaryPatShelby]

On 3/5/2017 at 10:14 PM, humbleopinion said:

Song that played out the episode ...

"Harvest Moon" by Neil Young circa 1992

And it really is, as Perry said, the most beautiful song.

[humbleopinion]

"Harvest Moon" is in "A Quiet Place" the Emily Blunt and John Kransinski movie, too

[kitkat343]

On 3/6/2017 at 5:13 AM, mojoween said:

Those gift baskets were ridiculous for a six year olds birthday party.  My son gave and got little plastic bags of dollar store trinkets, heh.

I totally agree.  I live in a suburb of nyc, and at a friends party there was a kid from Manhattan there. After being handed the bag of trinkets, the six year old turned to her mom and said, “is this it.”  It’s scary, but realistic in some circles.  

Edited July 24, 2019 by kitkat343

[aradia22]

I'm sorry. I just don't see Renata as hateful. She's so sweet with Amabella. I don't think she's all about appearances or power games or buying her daughter's affection. I think she genuinely wants her to be happy and is trying to protect her. If anyone is awful and more concerned with herself than with her children, it's Madeline. Let's assume, as Renata is, that Ziggy choked her daughter and later forced a kiss on her to try and apologize. From her perspective, it makes perfect sense to not have them spend any time together outside of school if it's not necessary. Madeline is the monster here.

On the one hand, yes, obviously Perry blows things out of proportion and is controlling and is determined to be personally offended by everything Celeste does. On the other hand, I think their relationship has problems outside of the abuse. Like, there is a lack of communication and she doesn't seem to think of him in small ways like telling him orientation was the important thing and the first day of school was just drop off or considering that he might want to go on a family outing. I don't think that justifies his behavior but I do think they are at odds in how they communicate and what they expect from a relationship. 

It was interesting that this was one of the only moments so far that Perry hasn't switched to being apologetic or gentle after being physically abusive. Even when he first grabbed her arm, he rationalized his behavior as concern for their sons. But this time he just walked away. 

I don't understand why we're being asked to sympathize with Madeline. This Disney on Ice stunt clearly puts her in the position of bully and manipulator. And Chloe clearly wanted to go to the party. Madeline is putting her own vendetta over her daughter's wishes and trying to ruin a little girl's birthday party. Why on earth would I root for her? She's the character who is selfish and malicious. She is the mean girl. Also, I appreciate that Renata isn't threatened by Bonnie being young and beautiful.

I'm a huge theater fan but no, I still don't find Madeline sympathetic. First of all, Avenue Q and Book of Mormon have pretty outdated "edgy" early 2000's humor. And besides, she so entitled about thinking they deserve government money and that she's defending the first amendment. Book of Mormon (until quarantine) was still running in New York. Avenue Q only closed recently after running for years. You're not accomplishing anything, lady. 

I loved the meeting with Abigail's guidance counselor. Madeline would be insufferable if the show didn't have other characters telling her the truth and seeing through her BS.

Ah, so Perry's apology did come. Again, so lazy. A diamond necklace? And it was practically a choker which feels like a bondage collar/sign of ownership. The shower scene also felt significant because I think it's the first time we've seen all of Celeste's bruises. I didn't register it before but she must have been covered up enough in other scenes that it wasn't apparent. 

Gordon is a schmuck but otherwise, I love Renata. 

Now I'm paying more attention to how Celeste dresses. How did she disguise that nasty neck bruising at the therapist? Just makeup? She wore her hair to cover it but it could easily have fallen out of the way. Perry's responses at the therapist were a crazy mix of honesty and manipulation. His initial responses had a kernel of truth but they were also a way of manipulating both Celeste and the therapist. I thought the session was going to be completely pointless when Celeste was too intimidated to admit to the physical abuse but then Perry just said it, which surprised me. I thought he was manipulating them both to hide his responsibility but he admitted to grabbing her shoulder and that the physical abuse has been a reoccurring pattern.

Renata is hilarious. I laughed so hard at the bathroom sex.

This episode was the first time I understood that she was seeing the footprints of a man's shoes in the sand and chasing after them because she didn't know who he was. I just see a woman walking on the beach and think Kate Chopin's The Awakening.

The most sympathetic thing about Madeline this episode was how she responded when Jane needed help with the family tree and then listened to her story. But I don't like it when a male character gets to have depth because of a female character's pain and it's not much better when a female character does it. Madeline is still a jerk.

So I think Celeste and Perry are far from the most realistic depiction of an abusive relationship. But I appreciate the fact that casting Alexander Skarsgard means that at the very least, this is a perfect depiction of how all those fictional characters that romanticize abuse are in real life. The combination of controlling behavior, with or without physical abuse, and then these conciliatory, apologetic romantic gestures are SO toxic.