S01.E03: Living The Dream

[Irlandesa]

On 3/5/2017 at 9:25 PM, stagmania said:

 Not seeing sinister Ed/Abigail vibes at all.

I don't want to see the vibes but I've probably seen too many Lifetime movies where step-daddy does step-daughter.  First, there was that moment last week when the camera focused on Abigail watching Madeline and Ed dance.  Then there was this week where the camera seemed to focus on Ed watching Abigail take pictures only to avert his eyes when she comes in.  Now, I didn't pick up any vibes once she was back in the house so maybe I'm crazy but Ed's "she's like you" and Abigail's sudden drop in grades and desire to move out the house have me suspicious.  It's not to the point where if they don't go there that I'll feel tricked but if they do, they did drop hints. 

On 3/5/2017 at 9:15 PM, stagmania said:

I think it's clear that the show is not trying to depict Perry as a straightforward villain. And given the way they revealed Jane's backstory, not showing her rapist's face and having him use a fake name, I expect we know him, or will soon.

I think they're trying to show a more "real" depiction of abuse but I'll have more on that in a bit.  As for Jane's rapist, I do think we'll know him.  Right now, I feel like Nathan, Gordon and Perry are the three most likely suspects based on what we saw in her memory of that night. Gordon is just on the periphery enough that I lean towards him.

Speaking of Gordon, I didn't realize until tonight that Jeffrey Nordling was playing him.  I knew he was in this but I thought he was playing Nathan and that James Tupper was playing Gordon.  So...um...am I crazy for thinking these two look a lot alike?

 

12 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I posted an article in the media thread where the therapy sessions were discussed.  I agree with that writer's take on it.

I'm not suggesting any interpretation is a more 'correct' one or that Perry is husband of the year, but I personally don't see his fears as turning him into a victim so much as making him seem more human and sympathetic.  He's willing to admit he's violent and willing to discuss his fears and insecurities in a therapy setting.  Like Celeste, I see that as a step in the right direction more than passing blame. 

It is generally not recommended that people in abusive marriages seek out couples counseling to deal with the issue for reasons I think we saw in this episode.  First, abuse isn't a "we" situation but an "I" situation.  If Perry really wanted to get better, he wouldn't be doing it in couples counseling.  Couples counseling usually involves discovering what steps both partners can take to improve their relationship.  If the biggest issue in their marriage is abuse, then it's suddenly shifting some responsibility for preventing that abuse onto the victim. 

Another reason it's dangerous is because of what we saw Perry do in this therapy session.  Abusers know how to manipulate through controlling the narrative. He opened up...just enough.  He admitted to some violence which makes it seem to Celeste and the therapist that he's open to being honest.  At the same time, since he was the one to share the violence, he also got a chance to downplay the severity of the violence.  He also shared something that made him look vulnerable in front of the therapist and something he knew Celeste was primed to want to placate given how much she had given up already--his insecurity. 

Unless a therapist is trained in dealing with this specifically, they can play into an abusers hands to gaslight their partner. And if it's a good therapist who won't play since they understand this dynamic, then the abusive partner usually wants to put an end to the sessions.  We never got a reason why therapy hadn't worked for these two in the past but I wouldn't be surprised if this was one of the reasons why they quit a few attempts they mentioned in their past. 

 

12 hours ago, Eyes High said:

It wasn't so much the dance moves as the fact that it was a very beautiful and fit woman doing the dance moves.

Yep. As someone said, she might seem exotic to this group.  Not only because of her ethnicity but the fact that she's a yoga teacher, wears looser clothing and is more free spirited in general. What she was doing wasn't overly sexual but rather she was likely absorbing a lot of male fantasy projection.

I binged the first three episodes and couldn't shake the fact that Bonnie reminded me of Lisa Bonet.  It wasn't until I came into this thread where people were writing Zoey's name that I realized there's a good reason I was reminded of Lisa.  

[NutMeg]

Fantastic series, and all the characters are intriguing enough. Otherwise, not unusual in my experience that kids love music from way before their times, especially when they're 5-6, it's more about what they've been exposed to, and if their mum has been playing Fleetwood Mac around them for ages they might be into it. I know I'm into some songs that based on my birth date I'm supposed not to know, but for example my parents were playing Otis Reading (who had probably died by then) when I was a small kid, and in my 20s I got into loving The Doors, even if some of their songs date back to a time when I was even not an embryo. My son loves Queen, as I do, because he's been exposed to it (me too), way after they dominated the chart tracks. And yeah, I also love Mendelsohn, and Chopin, Satie, Tchaikovski, even though it was not the music most listened to by my peers when I was growing up.          

3 hours ago, stagmania said:

Adding to the chorus of people younger than the mothers who love Fleetwood Mac. :)

Interesting to read people's ideas about Perry, and I have to say: I think it can all be true. He's an abusive manipulator, and also has deep seated insecurities. He wants to control Celeste, and also feels that he loves her desperately. He is probably irredeemable, but also genuinely wants to try to be a better husband. The show seems to want us to view him and his relationship with Celeste with all it's complexities and contradictions, and it tracks for me. It also makes me think he's going to be a big part of whatever ends up going down, otherwise why bother to dimensionalize him this much?

I love the Perry/Celeste interaction and I am convinced Perry is a very flawed person who is a manipulator and an abuser. I think it is well done here, because he is good looking, successful, etc., but a part of him still doesn't believe he deserves this incredible woman. I really liked the therapist here, and I wish we get more insight on why Celeste thinks she needs to stay in that weird relationship.  

3 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I don't see Renata obsessing about her daughter's exquisitely refined specialness.  I see a mother with unlimited resources who's afraid she's not doing enough for a daughter who's claiming to be bullied.

As a gifted person with a gifted child and working in education and having read a lot on giftedness, I don't see gifted kids as 'spectacular little shits', etc.  They come in all personalities.  A very common one is the quiet, sensitive, thoughtful type, kind of like Amabella.  I'm sorry you've had such negative experiences.  

I see Renata as projecting a lot on her daughter rather than seeing and hearing her. Par for the course for a working mom who wished she was there more, so over compensates (that party was extreme compensation). No idea if A is or not gifted, but yeah, gifted kids come in all packages, including very socially unsecure.

[Razzberry]

Perry's M.O.

 

[NutMeg]

55 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

I don't want to see the vibes but I've probably seen too many Lifetime movies where step-daddy does step-daughter.  First, there was that moment last week when the camera focused on Abigail watching Madeline and Ed dance.  Then there was this week where the camera seemed to focus on Ed watching Abigail take pictures only to avert his eyes when she comes in.  Now, I didn't pick up any vibes once she was back in the house so maybe I'm crazy but Ed's "she's like you" and Abigail's sudden drop in grades and desire to move out the house have me suspicious.  It's not to the point where if they don't go there that I'll feel tricked but if they do, they did drop hints. 

I think they're trying to show a more "real" depiction of abuse but I'll have more on that in a bit.  As for Jane's rapist, I do think we'll know him.  Right now, I feel like Nathan, Gordon and Perry are the three most likely suspects based on what we saw in her memory of that night. Gordon is just on the periphery enough that I lean towards him.

Speaking of Gordon, I didn't realize until tonight that Jeffrey Nordling was playing him.  I knew he was in this but I thought he was playing Nathan and that James Tupper was playing Gordon.  So...um...am I crazy for thinking these two look a lot alike?

 

It is generally not recommended that people in abusive marriages seek out couples counseling to deal with the issue for reasons I think we saw in this episode.  First, abuse isn't a "we" situation but an "I" situation.  If Perry really wanted to get better, he wouldn't be doing it in couples counseling.  Couples counseling usually involves discovering what steps both partners can take to improve their relationship.  If the biggest issue in their marriage is abuse, then it's suddenly shifting some responsibility for preventing that abuse onto the victim. 

Another reason it's dangerous is because of what we saw Perry do in this therapy session.  Abusers know how to manipulate through controlling the narrative. He opened up...just enough.  He admitted to some violence which makes it seem to Celeste and the therapist that he's open to being honest.  At the same time, since he was the one to share the violence, he also got a chance to downplay the severity of the violence.  He also shared something that made him look vulnerable in front of the therapist and something he knew Celeste was primed to want to placate given how much she had given up already--his insecurity. 

Unless a therapist is trained in dealing with this specifically, they can play into an abusers hands to gaslight their partner. And if it's a good therapist who won't play since they understand this dynamic, then the abusive partner usually wants to put an end to the sessions.  We never got a reason why therapy hadn't worked for these two in the past but I wouldn't be surprised if this was one of the reasons why they quit a few attempts they mentioned in their past. 

 

Yep. As someone said, she might seem exotic to this group.  Not only because of her ethnicity but the fact that she's a yoga teacher, wears looser clothing and is more free spirited in general. What she was doing wasn't overly sexual but rather she was likely absorbing a lot of male fantasy projection.

I binged the first three episodes and couldn't shake the fact that Bonnie reminded me of Lisa Bonet.  It wasn't until I came into this thread where people were writing Zoey's name that I realized there's a good reason I was reminded of Lisa.  

The link you posted is super interesting and could explain quite a lot about Perry/Celeste therapy behaviour. In particular,  

Quote

A victim may not feel safe with their abuser present and could be hesitant to fully participate or speak honestly during counseling sessions. Alternatively, a victim may have a false sense of security during a session and reveal information they normally wouldn’t disclose. Then, back at home, the abusive partner could decide to retaliate with more abuse.

perfectly explains the dynamic we saw in that therapy session. Especially if there have been many more in the past ("try a new therapist'... how sad)

Edited March 7, 2017 by NutMeg
typo ;(

[mochamajesty]

1 hour ago, Irlandesa said:

 

It is generally not recommended that people in abusive marriages seek out couples counseling to deal with the issue for reasons I think we saw in this episode.  First, abuse isn't a "we" situation but an "I" situation.  If Perry really wanted to get better, he wouldn't be doing it in couples counseling.  Couples counseling usually involves discovering what steps both partners can take to improve their relationship.  If the biggest issue in their marriage is abuse, then it's suddenly shifting some responsibility for preventing that abuse onto the victim. 

Another reason it's dangerous is because of what we saw Perry do in this therapy session.  Abusers know how to manipulate through controlling the narrative. He opened up...just enough.  He admitted to some violence which makes it seem to Celeste and the therapist that he's open to being honest.  At the same time, since he was the one to share the violence, he also got a chance to downplay the severity of the violence.  He also shared something that made him look vulnerable in front of the therapist and something he knew Celeste was primed to want to placate given how much she had given up already--his insecurity. 

Unless a therapist is trained in dealing with this specifically, they can play into an abusers hands to gaslight their partner. And if it's a good therapist who won't play since they understand this dynamic, then the abusive partner usually wants to put an end to the sessions.  We never got a reason why therapy hadn't worked for these two in the past but I wouldn't be surprised if this was one of the reasons why they quit a few attempts they mentioned in their past. 

 

Yep. As someone said, she might seem exotic to this group.  Not only because of her ethnicity but the fact that she's a yoga teacher, wears looser clothing and is more free spirited in general. What she was doing wasn't overly sexual but rather she was likely absorbing a lot of male fantasy projection.

I binged the first three episodes and couldn't shake the fact that Bonnie reminded me of Lisa Bonet.  It wasn't until I came into this thread where people were writing Zoey's name that I realized there's a good reason I was reminded of Lisa.  

Thanks for the link and the validation.

I also agree about Ed and Abigail. 

Edited March 7, 2017 by mochamajesty

[ElectricBoogaloo]

19 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

The ocean gazing is kind of silly.  Though I'm ok with it because I have severe beach house envy.  

I'm fine with it because I used to live in San Diego and every time I have a chance to go back to visit, I stare at the ocean as much as possible!

19 hours ago, Giesela said:

I don't understand Jane's gun or PTSD.  She wasn't attacked in that sense and nothing we have been shown would lead to the kind of paranoia about being tracked down.   Is it that she is there to try to find they guy and is worried that if he finds out he will retaliate?  But why would she want to find him?  It seems so unlikely to me that she would do that.  If she were to find out who the guy is, he has fathers rights.  So in the entirely unlikely event she could press a claim of rape, after going to the room willing, his word against hers, waiting years to bring it up, his money which would be motivation to lie,  all of which would work against her - but say she got some sort of conviction - I think the father still has some rights.

PTSD doesn't always manifest itself in logical ways. Even though, as far as Jane knows (and we have seen), her rapist doesn't know where she lives, the scene where she imagined him trying to break into her house was less an indication that she thinks this is actually going to happen and more a sign that, as she admitted to Madeline, she will never really get over what happened to her. Many victims (of different crimes, not just rape) end up feeling unsafe because however they were violated has made them feel vulnerable. Again, I'm not just referring to rape victims. People who have been mugged or physically attacked in public later don't feel safe, even at home with their doors locked. Logically they know that what happened to them probably won't result in someone breaking into their house and harming them, but the attack has taken away that sense of feeling safe.

17 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Sorry I did not find Bonnie's dance that hot.  What am I missing?

I didn't either, but I think that was the point. To me, her dancing was tame and run of the mill. For the first part, she and Renata were doing the exact same thing but no one said that Renata was being inappropriate or too sexy. A lot of it is just perception. In my freshman dorm, there were a couple of girls who everyone referred to as the hottest chicks on campus. In reality, they were pretty but not like drop dead gorgeous. They were young, thin, blonde, and new and apparently that was enough. Similarly, I think that Bonnie is young, pretty, and yoga firm which will always be attractive to men, but especially to men who are twice as old with wives who they have been with for several years (based on all the kids being in first grade, that means that the couples we've seen on the show have been together for at least seven years). The fact that women like Harper found Bonnie's dancing inappropriate and men like Gordon found it hot shows us that it's less about how things are (tame dancing) versus how things are perceived (inappropriate or hot) based on who is doing the judging.

15 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I heard 'drone', too.  I wouldn't think too much about their professions and their income, though.  At least the show bothered to give them jobs at all.  (Hello, This is Us.)  

One of Maddie's kids mentioned Avenue Q has F-words.  Maybe that's part of the outcry.  I would think a community theater would have some more adult content and some other kid targeted productions but I don't know much about it.  Maybe this one has historically had only family-friendly plays.  

Ed definitely said it was a drone company. Abigail then asked if drones were illegal and he said not yet.

Madeline works for a community theater, not the children's theater or the elementary school's theater program, so I don't see the problem with having more adult themed plays. I know that once some people become parents, they act like the whole world is supposed to be appropriate for whatever age their kids happen to be, so I could see some of the parents on this show being offended that a play existed that they couldn't take their kids to. But in reality, most community theater groups put on a wide range of plays each season, from musicals to dramas and not all of them are appropriate for kids, which is normal. One of the local theaters is currently doing a production of Billy Elliot which will be followed by Urinetown and the Disney musical version of Tarzan. Another theater just did a play called Hand to God which featured a lot of swearing and a scene with puppet sex. In June they're doing a musical version of Monsoon Wedding. It's called variety! Heh, I was laughing when Madeline said that if they allow the city to tell them they can't do Avenue Q, next they'll say they can't do Book of Mormon.

10 hours ago, scrb said:

Seems like those mothers, if they're around the same age of the actresses playing them, would be too young to be into Fleetwood Mac.  Except maybe for Celeste.

If Renata is such a big career woman, would she be so preoccupied with school/moms politics?

Reese is 40, Nicole is 49, Shailene is 25, Laura just turned 50, and Zoe is 28. But I don't think age factors into liking classic music like Fleetwood Mac. One of my cousins has been obsessed with the Beatles since he was in middle school. There are kids obsessed with Kurt Cobain who were born after he died. I think a lot of the bigger names are more well known, but even with lesser known music, it just takes one person to expose you to it. I remember when I was in middle school, this boy I knew had two older sisters who were always playing older music for him and then he would play it for me. That was my first taste of a bunch of older bands. Heh, and there's nothing like living in a dorm to force you to learn about other music. My freshman dorm had quiet hours until 8am an every fucking morning at exactly 8am, everyone would start blaring their music. The girls who lived right next to me played the Gipsy Kings at top volume every time they got high. The guy who lived directly below me played a lot of rap. I really learned a lot about music that year!

Renata seems very type A and that means she wants to succeed at everything, whether it's her job or running the PTA at her daughter's elementary school. She also sees Amabella as an extension of herself so she takes any insult to Amabella personally. This show makes me so glad I don't have kids because having to deal with the politics and egos of the other parents would probably make me want to stab someone. They would all be better off if they would just leave the kids alone. Did Renata even ask Amabella who she wanted at her birthday party? Did Amabella really want all 30 kids there or would she have bee just as happy having Chloe and a few girls come over for cake and a sleepover? Did Amabella specifically say she would feel uncomfortable having Ziggy there or did Renata just assume? (for the record, I understand not inviting a kid who you think has hurt your child, but still)

9 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Aside from all the well-documented issues with standardized testing supposedly identifying "giftedness" systematically disadvantaging children from underprivileged backgrounds and the treatment of a child's "giftedness" as a status symbol, let me tell you a little story. 

I lived in a city where there seemed to be a disproportionately high number of "gifted" children given the size of the population, to the point where this was investigated by local journalists. One of the explanations proffered was that because there were so many civil servants living in the city, a high number of gifted children could be expected. Intelligence is hereditary, after all, right? Sounds reasonable enough...except that it turned out that when kids failed to meet the gifted standard under the usual standardized testing, parents were permitted to have their children "reevaluated" by private psychologists to determine their giftedness, at the parents' expense of course. Yeah. 

Amabella could be gifted, sure. What's more likely, however, is that she has a pushy, wealthy, status-obsessed mother who refuses to accept that her child is anything other than special and different, like many other pushy, wealthy, status-obsessed parents do. As for Amabella being "sensitive"...she's a kid who wanted her friend to come to her birthday party and is sad that she isn't. There is nothing special about that. That's just...being a kid and having normal feelings of disappointment. As everyone has, sometimes, regardless of how completely ordinary and unspecial they are.

I agree with the poster upthread that Renata seems to view Amabella as an extension of herself. Amabella would probably be a lot happier if Renata stopped obsessing about her exquisitely refined specialness and uniqueness and just let her be a normal kid. 

...Purely anecdotally, Amabella seems way too kind and sweet to be gifted. The gifted kids I knew growing up were all spectacular little shits who took particular delight in tormenting teachers who showed insufficient backbone in standing up to them, not surprisingly given that they knew they were smarter than most of the adults they met but still had to do as they said. They also gave their parents allll kinds of trouble, which is funny given how so many parents are obsessed with the idea of having a gifted child.

I think that at such a young age (first grade), it's hard to tell who's really gifted. I mean, they're six years old. If your six year old is playing sonatas and reading Gone with the Wind, then fine, maybe she's ahead of her peer group but most kids that age are just kids. When I was in elementary school, I went from attending a private school in one state to a public school in another state. The new school assumed I was a dummy (without looking at my grades or test scores or talking to the teachers at my previous school) and dumped me into the low level class. Within five minutes, I knew that I was not in the right place because everything they were doing was stuff I'd done a year or two before. They tested me and put me in the gifted class, but my school district and the parents never made me feel like I was special. It was just another test I took. The gifted classes weren't exclusively for gifted students so we were always with other kids. The only way we got singled out was sometimes we were given extra assignments so of course my reaction was, "More work? Nooooooo!"

Gordon can be a shithead but at least he seemed more level-headed than Renata who wanted to send Amabella to a therapist. Gordon's reaction to Renata going on and on about how sensitive Amabella is and how she internalizes things and blah blah blah was basically: "Um, she seems fine."

8 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

It's a little troubling to me how many people read the book and don't remember it.  It's only a couple years old.  I guess it wasn't the most memorable ending.  I'll lower my expectations.  

In my defense, I have read at least 100 books since I read Big Little Lies so it's not that it was a bad book or anything. I remembered the three main characters but not who was killed or who did it. Normally when I read a book first, I end up nitpicking the differences in the movie/tv show but since I've forgotten most of the details of this book, it's been pretty enjoyable because I get a familiar feeling as I watch each episode but I still don't know what to expect in terms of the plot.

5 hours ago, J-Man said:

The Bixby Creek Bridge, as mentioned above, is very real and is part of California Highway 1. However, there would be very little reason for anyone living in the Monterey-Carmel area to be driving over it as often as it's shown in this series. The bridge is significantly SOUTH of that area, and there is nothing beyond it other than the remote, isolated Big Sur coast for many miles. Unless for some reason Celeste and Perry are going to a therapist in Big Sur, I can't imagine why they'd be driving over that bridge. Of course, this show is playing fast and loose with geography anyway, so I guess it's no big deal that they want to work in as many scenes as possible of one of the more photogenic bridges in the world.

One of my uncles who lived in Chicago used to complain whenever we saw a movie that was filmed there because inevitably they will show characters heading in one very obvious direction (driving south on Lake Shore Drive, for example) and then they would end up in a completely different place. They always want the most picturesque shots, which doesn't always line up with the actual geography of the area.

Edited March 7, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Ina123]

I kept wondering why there was so much focus on the rapist's footprints (with the very distinctive circle on the heel) and the way, when she woke up and her eyes cleared the first thing she focused on were the bottom of his shoes. Is this a clue?

[mochamajesty]

6 minutes ago, Ina123 said:

I kept wondering why there was so much focus on the rapist's footprints (with the very distinctive circle on the heel) and the way, when she woke up and her eyes cleared the first thing she focused on were the bottom of his shoes. Is this a clue?

Remember Perry's shoe-store sized shoe closet in the Pilot?  Hmmmm.......

[Lucelu]

For those that don't see Laura Dern as pretty or sexy, please watch David Lynch's Wild at Heart starring her and Nick Cage from back in her younger years (one of my favorite movies also starring her mother Diane Ladd)--yeah, it's over the top but it's David Lynch. I find her a compelling actress particularly now that she is 50 and able to really inhabit the anger, competitiveness and self delusion that women at our age can exhibit and I really enjoyed Enlightened and was kind of pissed that they cancelled it but continued Girls.

I am really enjoying the strong characters in this - Madeline, Renata seem the most developed. That they are natural enemies leading the different so called teams of mothers (the careers vs the homes) in the world of Uber-Momming -- I kind of find this an interesting commentary on how you can take the girl out of the high school but she never outgrows it, particularly in upper class California, where the ante seems to have no limit. That there were parents discussing keeping their children away from one little new boy because he was accused of choking a little girl - something no one witnessed and who had not exhibited any kind of aggressive behavior otherwise, I was kind of floored. I remember being in first grade and was a little afraid of one older boy that lived down the street. I imagined him stealing my lunch money, so much that by the end of the school day, I believed he had done so, told my mother and she called his mother.... it was hours until I remembered it didn't really happen and I think my mother just about lost it when I told her-- it had to be incredibly awkward for her (I want to apologize to Kevin Walker, I'm sorry, you were older, bigger and intimidating and I was shy and afraid of you.)  Celeste I have less of an understanding of as a character, she seems less substantial and does not jibe with the other things we know about her -- being a super high powered attorney in her previous life but now walking around like this fragile hyper-sexualized baby mama girl-woman who is literally alternatively punched and poked. I half expect there to be staff employed at their manse to manage the daily monotonous running of the home --doing the laundry, preparing meals, cleaning the bathrooms, getting the children up and dressed so she can spend her time taking perfect pictures and staring into the ocean. Where are those twin boys when she is getting beat up or having sex in the public rooms of her house with her husband? Who has that much private time with young twin boys? She just seems to have less energy and less to do than her peers (like Madeline). However, quixotic her behavior, the complexity of her relationship with Perry could warrant its own show. We are not shown a similar level of intimate dynamics in the other womens marriages. However, it is as if Celeste's personality is entirely dominated by her husband and her being a mother. We don't really know her voice. 

I have to agree that Nicole Kidman does appear ethereal -- she literally glowed at the Oscars. One of my FB friends had a picture (her daughter was working as a production assistant and was in a shot on TV) and she said it was d/t the picture being taken of the TV screen but still, no one else showed up like that and it was HD.

I was a little confused, does Bonnie really own her own yoga studio or does she just teach at the same yoga place she attended with Nathan at Madeline's yoga class? I can see her having free classes where she teaches and getting Nathan to go with her. I totally cannot see Madeline buying a yoga class package at her exes' wife's business.

I did not pick up any attraction between Abigal and Ed. I think that Ed is annoyed at the teen. It seems Abigal takes delight in pushing her buttons irt her Nathan and his wife. I wonder what story Nathan told Bonnie about her, probably is reinforced whenever Maddy has a rude interaction with her.  I like that Madeline tries to be honest about why she has the feelings she has, particularly with her kids and her husband. 

Jane seems like she would have a more natural friendship with Bonnie and I would not have been surprised if Renata had mistakened Bonnie for a nanny too. It is such a chance meeting that she ends up being in this friendship with Celeste and Madeline. It could have easily been so different. 

Jane and Ziggys story is so tragic.  Her home is most familiar to me. Her life is more tangible and relatable to me. However, I am not a person who uses, holds or sleeps with a gun-- don't have her level of fear.  She does not trust her judgment anymore and I think that is part of what makes her so afraid. 

[teddysmom]

12 hours ago, Lemons said:

You had an AC on?  Lucky

It was in the 60s here and humid.   

[Alison]

2 hours ago, Ina123 said:

I kept wondering why there was so much focus on the rapist's footprints (with the very distinctive circle on the heel) and the way, when she woke up and her eyes cleared the first thing she focused on were the bottom of his shoes. Is this a clue?

There's a behind the scenes segment that airs after the credits (OnDemand, at least; not sure about watching live), and both David E. Kelley and Jean-Marc Vallée say there's a reason why we keep seeing Jane's POV of the soles of the shoes during the rape.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

49 minutes ago, Lucelu said:

Celeste I have less of an understanding of as a character, she seems less substantial and does not jibe with the other things we know about her -- being a super high powered attorney in her previous life but now walking around like this fragile hyper-sexualized baby mama girl-woman who is literally alternatively punched and poked. I half expect there to be staff employed at their manse to manage the daily monotonous running of the home --doing the laundry, preparing meals, cleaning the bathrooms, getting the children up and dressed so she can spend her time taking perfect pictures and staring into the ocean. Where are those twin boys when she is getting beat up or having sex in the public rooms of her house with her husband? Who has that much private time with young twin boys?

I don't have answers for most of that, but it was established in previous episodes that Celeste has a nanny for the boys which is why she has been able to go meet Madeline for coffee during the day and drinks at night.

53 minutes ago, Lucelu said:

I was a little confused, does Bonnie really own her own yoga studio or does she just teach at the same yoga place she attended with Nathan at Madeline's yoga class? I can see her having free classes where she teaches and getting Nathan to go with her. I totally cannot see Madeline buying a yoga class package at her exes' wife's business.

I don't specifically recall Madeline saying that Bonnie owns her own yoga studio (but it's also possible that I just completely forgot). In the first episode, we saw Bonnie and Nathan taking a yoga class together so maybe some viewers just assumed that she owned it? In the second episode, Madeline and Celeste go to yoga and when Bonnie walks in, Madeline says something along the lines of "Why is she here?" which seems to imply that this is not the yoga studio that Bonnie normally goes to so I assumed that Bonnie teaches somewhere else (and to be fair, in California there are yoga studios everywhere so I can imagine that there are several in Monterey).

[NutMeg]

Just a small thing, but in the intro we only see one twin. I'd be peeved if I was the other one.

[Blakeston]

11 hours ago, Eyes High said:

As someone who grew up surrounded by kids in gifted programs, several of whom bullied me and their teachers with equal vigour, that may be your perception, but it's certainly not my experience. I get that parents of gifted children, as Renata does, might see their little darlings as incredibly sensitive and intuitive little angels whose rarefied thoughts are ever turned to a higher plane, but I have to tell you: endowing a little human with heightened intellectual abilities to perceive adult bullshit while withholding from them any power except the power to make others miserable, while simultaneously telling them that they are special and unique and better than their peers, is not a recipe for angelic, gentle, thoughtful children. In fact, the more intelligent the kids were at my school, the bigger terrors they were. 

Nope, not in my experience. Spectacular little shits, one and all.

Just because you haven't dealt with any gifted children with pleasant personalities doesn't mean they don't exist. The kids in my school's gifted program were mostly well-behaved, quiet and sweet. I wouldn't be surprised if there are certain gifted programs that encourage bratty behavior - but I don't think those are the norm.

10 hours ago, Lemons said:

How "gifted" is the kid that she could not definitely identify who strangled her?

It's possible she did correctly identify her strangler. If she didn't, it was presumably because she was too afraid of the real strangler to point him out. And if that's the case, it was very smart (in a cunning sort of way) for her to choose the new kid, whose claims of innocence wouldn't be believed.

At this point, I don't think we've seen nearly enough of Amabella to have any idea whether she's actually gifted or not.

[Giesela]

Agree on Woodley's acting re Ziggy's outburst.  The way she said "that is unacceptable" seemed very wooden.  I'm finding her acting sort of uneven.  She'll nail a scene then totally flub one.  

Is a circle on a mens shoe heel something like the red on the bottom of....Gucci? Yea I can't remember the brand but red bottom's is a high end brand signature.  I saw one of David Lynch's commentaries but not others.  Not sure what is up with my HBO, maybe you only see it on demand if its a too long episode during its first real time showing. 

I don't know about gifted kids but I worked in a large building where half of the employees were engineers.  There was a bit of a rift and I always felt like they had a hard time living in a world full of people stupider than themselves (the rest of us were also college educated but liberal arts types).  They tended to stick together though oddly they weren't necessarily nicer to each other than they were to us stupid non engineers, it was just a different kind of not nice.  I tended to waffle on how I felt about it.  

Edited March 7, 2017 by Giesela

[Gem 10]

On March 6, 2017 at 9:22 AM, teddysmom said:

I need to rewatch with CC on. I couldn't hear half of what they were saying.

Yeah ... They are talking very low, mostly in the dark, and Maddie has a way of talking very fast.  I'm constantly rewinding.   I also watch the episodes more than once.

[Llywela]

Man, Madeline is such a bulldozer. I feel for her so much, Witherspoon is doing a lovely job with the character, but man, if I was Abigail I'd find it exhausting being her daughter as well! And of course, Nathan belatedly stepping up as a parent means Abigail has a place to bolt. Can't help wondering if she'd have come to the point of deciding to move out if the teacher hadn't confronted her about her grades and brought everything to a head.

There was a little moment in Madeline's rant at theatre director Joseph (and I'm loving Santiago Cabrera even in such a teeny minor role, because I can't see a trace of his past characters in this artsy theatre director trapped in middle management hell), when she was going off about how the play had to continue for his sake, because he's so good, and he just looked at her, like, we both know this is not about me. And that kind of summed Madeline up, for me. She is so passionate and gets so emotionally invested in the causes she takes on, and I think she absolutely believes she is doing it for the other person (such as going in to bat for Ziggy over the party), but the lengths to which she goes and the extent to which she goes way over the top is always about Madeline herself, not about the cause she is fighting to.

I hadn't taken to Renata so far, so I was glad to see this episode exploring her a bit more.

[MV007]

I haven't loved Shailene as an actress, really in anything she's done.  And imo she's just been fine here.  But I really loved the end of the scene with Madeline when she told her story and she capped it off with something like "his name is never going on that fucking board".  She nailed that part for me.

[Gem 10]

I'm no expert on this Celeste - Perry thing that they have going on, but if someone threw me against the wall, made me black & blue, and practically choked me to death, I'd take my kids and run for the hills.  Celeste is just as sick as Perry.  If they like that sort of stuff, good luck to them.   

[WhosThatGirl]

1 minute ago, Gem 10 said:

I'm no expert on this Celeste - Perry thing that they have going on, but if someone threw me against the wall, made me black & blue, and practically choked me to death, I'd take my kids and run for the hills.  Celeste is just as sick as Perry.  If they like that sort of stuff, good luck to them.   

I'm not either but I'm assuming this type of stuff happens all the time. That's why after the Disney incident fight when she shouted "do that again and ill leave you", I kind of though "yeah, right". If she were going to leave him over that, she would have left a long time ago. And sadly that little thing feeds into Perrys little "poor me, my wife said she's going to leave me" and he can use it in therapy. I can only hope the therapist knows what's up.

[sasha206]

Unpopular opinion I'm sure but I find Reese Witherspoon to be overrated as an actress.  I feel like I've seen her play this role many a time.  I feel like I'm watching the older version of her character in Election.

On Jane, how does a single mom freelance bookkeeper afford to live in that area?  Yes, I know the house she is living in is modest, but that area can't be cheap especially for a single mom who doesn't have child support to help out.

[mochamajesty]

1 hour ago, Alison said:

There's a behind the scenes segment that airs after the credits (OnDemand, at least; not sure about watching live), and both David E. Kelley and Jean-Marc Vallée say there's a reason why we keep seeing Jane's POV of the soles of the shoes during the rape.

Did that air after episode 3?  I didn't see it upon re-watch yesterday. 

[stillshimpy]

Purely anecdotally, Amabella seems way too kind and sweet to be gifted. The gifted kids I knew growing up were all spectacular little shits who took particular delight in tormenting teachers who showed insufficient backbone in standing up to them

Yet another "I was in the gifted program from first grade on" person here and I'm sorry that was your experience.  However, it's going to be like any other segment of the population:  some will be spectacular shits and others will be sweet and kind.   There will be the same diversity of personality in a gifted program or an athletic one or a musical one, or anywhere there are individuals.    

In this instance, though, I thought that Renata was perhaps projecting her wishes along with her insecurities.  Amabella seems a sweet kid but she's in the regular classes with everyone else, so we've no reason to believe she's even been designated gifted by anyone other than Renata.   

16 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Gordon can be a shithead but at least he seemed more level-headed than Renata who wanted to send Amabella to a therapist. Gordon's reaction to Renata going on and on about how sensitive Amabella is and how she internalizes things and blah blah blah was basically: "Um, she seems fine."

 

 

 

 

I like that they balance each other out in that capacity.  Renata seems a tiny bit obsessive (understatement) and Gordon seems to recognize the signs.  

Although, sorry to continue to rave about Laura Dern's performance, but the biggest laugh in this series for me came from her mania-tinged "They have ones that dress up like clowns"  ....way to shoot for "gifted and now terrified of clowns" Renata.  Go big or go home.  In this instance, maybe stay home.   Jeez, now I'll have nightmares about therapists dressed as clowns and clowns don't even bug me a little.  

Edited March 8, 2017 by stillshimpy

[Lucelu]

Thanks regarding the Bonnie's studio question! I have only watched the episodes once and I binged. There is always something I miss the first time around.

[hoodooznoodooz]

13 hours ago, sasha206 said:

Good first point; I'll still quibble on Dern as I don't think she's ever been gorgeous.  I never thought she was even that attractive. I think she has aged well though.

The scene in "Blue Velvet," after she realizes the Kyle MacLachlan character had sex with the Isabella Rossellini character, she's sobbing, and looks ridiculous.  

[Mabinogia]

10 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

Jeez, now I'll have nightmares about therapists dressed as clowns and clowns don't even bug me a little.

I know, right? Clown therapists? That's the stuff of nightmares right there. Therapist might be a bit much, based on what we've seen, maybe there is more going on than we know that would prompt that, but I seriously hope they sat down and had a really honest talk with Amabella about being strangled in school. I mean, it was bad enough to leave a pretty serious mark on her neck. That shit should be discussed with her. Sensitive or not, I'd think that would freak her out a little. And if not, that's probably more reason to talk to her. Don't want to grow a Jr. Celeste!

I neither love nor hate Woodley but the moment where she yelled at Ziggy was really terrible, but the saying the fathers name will never go on the board was great.

[sasha206]

4 minutes ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

The scene in "Blue Velvet," after she realizes the Kyle MacLachlan character had sex with the Isabella Rossellini character, she's sobbing, and looks ridiculous.  

 

Even in her prime -- Wild At Heart -- her face still looks to me quite average.  I've seen prettier girls at the local mall.  

And definitely ugly crier.

[Ms Blue Jay]

I was a theatre manager around 2010 and I worked with a kid who was only 16 and loved Neil Diamond.  I found that so, so hysterical.  That's my mom's favourite artist!  Anyway, the youth constantly fascinate me.  The amount of music that people can find on the internet is infinite.  I bought a classical CD off of some guy I kept watching play the cello on the subway.  And yes, Nirvana shirts are constantly being sold and sold out because of the resurgence of loving grunge.  I'm happy that I have my little crew on social media that will never let anyone forget Aaliyah.  There will always be people out there who love what you love or did love or your parents loved.  Leighton Meester actually recently covered "Dreams" by Fleetwood Mac on YouTube.

My brother's five years younger than I am and in a band.  Once I joined the band at karaoke.  I couldn't believe how much music they knew from the 1950s and 60s and onward.  When I told him that he simply responded, "We're musicians."  LOL.  Music lovers love all music!

Edited March 7, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[Auntie Anxiety]

Just occurred to me that perhaps Amabella was playing that strangling game (can't remember if there is an actual name for it--I think the near asphyxiation leads to a feeling of being high), knew it was naughty and put the blame on Ziggy so she wouldn't get a raft of shit from her mother?

Edited March 7, 2017 by Auntie Anxiety

[Mabinogia]

I give a pass on the music thing because when I was in high school in the 80s my favorite singer was Bing Crosby. I also LOVED Benny Goodman, The Andrews Sisters, Duke Ellington, Big Bopper, lots of 50s doo wop. It wasn't until college that I finally moved into the 60s with Jefferson Airplane, Grateful Dead etc. Of course it was the 90s by then. I just get confused when they have Chloe in the car with her headphones and Madeline is talking about the song. So is it bluetoothing through the whole car? Then why does Chloe seem to have her earbuds in? That always throws me. And who wonders around with their phone constantly picking the music everyone will listen to? It's a very odd creative decision on productions part. I think they're trying to be artsy but it doesn't work for me.

[lovinbob]

On 3/5/2017 at 10:05 PM, mojoween said:

Ok so here's the thing.  Perry is abusive and that is bad and I am not in any way suggesting Celeste has it coming.  But I have to give her a side eye that she keeps making these plans or doing things with the kids and not telling him.  Any dad who loves his kids would be pissed at that.  Now obvs he goes way too far and I can't condone his reaction.

Also starting out your therapy session by lying isn't the best way to get help.

Celeste is, for lack of a better word, a housewife. Her job is to make plans for her kids. She doesn't "keep making plans with the kids" -- she is just living her life and helping them live their lives, which includes taking them to the parties and outings they've been invited to. Even if she did run every outing by her husband, most normal husbands wouldn't keep it all straight. This man is controlling and doesn't like when his wife asserts her own authority.

As far as lying in therapy -- she is trying to protect him and his ego. And trying to keep herself somewhat safe, I'd argue.  

On 3/5/2017 at 10:53 PM, FemmyV said:

Glad to see the Frozen trip didn't wreck Ammabella's birthday party, but it was kind of weird the main attraction was dancing MILFs. Laura Dern continues to impress in her isolation. To some extent, Renata is comic relief and I feel bad for her; I get the feeling she's the type of woman who doesn't have much use for other women. And her wardrobe rocks.

This was such a great illustration about how wealthy parents entertain themselves, while ostensibly entertaining their kids. I am a struggling parent whose kids go to school with some very, very wealthy families. Even I will admit that the best kids' parties are the ones that serve alcohol. Not that we're dancing MILFs, but the endless circuit of kids parties can be tough for adults to get through, so the ones that allow the adults to have fun are a nice change of pace. With that said, for me it's not about the elaborate gift baskets (I have totally received ones along those lines, I kid you not!) or the over-the-top festivities, it's the opportunity to enjoy the other adults around you. With that said, though, I recognize that that's misguided—kids' parties should be about the kids. But back in the days of simpler parties, parents could drop off and did not feel obligated to stay and help supervise, which is a fairly recent trend, I believe. 

On 3/6/2017 at 10:30 AM, Eyes High said:

I'd say all of Amabella's birthday party was ridiculous for a six year old's birthday party; at the risk of sounding curmudgeonly, cake and Pin the Tail on the Donkey were pretty much all my friends and I could expect at that age in the birthday party department, and we were glad of it. Of course, it wasn't about what the kids would like, was it? Expensive parties for children and teenagers are about impressing the other parents.

BINGO!

On 3/6/2017 at 9:16 AM, Winston9-DT3 said:

My interpretation is we don't know enough about Perry yet to know if he hopes to get better from therapy but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, so far.  I think many abusive husbands probably truly do want to change.  

I agree with this. I think he behaves like a monster but that doesn't mean he doesn't hate himself for it.

On 3/6/2017 at 10:21 AM, Giesela said:

How does someone as  neurotic as Renata become such a success?  Is that what the scene in the office was about, how she used to be normal and how the fight to the top changed her? Is becoming a competitive  I must win mother the female version of power and money corrupt wolf of wall street behavior?  I could get something along those likes but  very hard to not be impatient with and dismissive of. 

OMG, some of the most "successful" women I know are like Renata. Miserable, but very wealthy and very in charge of their world.

On 3/5/2017 at 11:08 PM, archer1267 said:

I wasn't watching Jane's flashback scene on the beach that closely, but the man's footprints abruptly ended on the sand, didn't they? It made me wonder if he had drowned. Did anyone else see it that way?

I did think that the abrupt end of the prints was meaningful.

14 hours ago, sasha206 said:

That kid is such a good little actor!  And he's probably going to grow up to be one handsome kid too.

He reminds me of Nicholas Hoult, the child actor from About a Boy who is now mad hot.

I can't believe there is an extensive debate about whether or not Laura Dern is pretty. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, no?

I think she is one of the strongest actors in a pretty great cast.

[sasha206]

13 minutes ago, lovinbob said:

 

He reminds me of Nicholas Hoult, the child actor from About a Boy who is now mad hot.

I can't believe there is an extensive debate about whether or not Laura Dern is pretty. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, no?

I think she is one of the strongest actors in a pretty great cast.

Yes, I love Nicholas Hoult!

On her Dern's beauty, I only commented on it because someone observed that the shows she stars in have to remind us of her  beauty -- as if they are trying to convince us all.  And that brought about others opinion of her gorgeousness.   I think she's a very capable actress.

Edited March 7, 2017 by sasha206

[taragel]

On 3/6/2017 at 8:35 AM, Winston9-DT3 said:

Regarding the promo

  Reveal hidden contents

and the rapist image on the PC-- That guy is clearly not Skarsgard, even 6-7 years ago, and also blows my 'faulty memory' theory, I think.  So unless Jane is screwing with the women, and the show is following suit with us the viewers in the flashback images, I think it's safe to say her rapist isn't someone we've met yet, right?  

 

On 3/6/2017 at 9:21 AM, teddysmom said:

  Reveal hidden contents

I thought it looked like Renata's husband. Didn't the image on the computer show a man with a beard?

Spoiler

I thought it looked like a guy very SIMILAR to (but clearly not) Perry on the computer. I don't think he had facial hair and he looked a bit Scandinavian like Skarsgaard, yet it clearly was not him but someone else. I just checked IMDB and the guy playing Saxon Baker is Stephen Graybill. Oh man and I just accidentally spoiled myself on who this dude is. Which...makes a lot of sense. Huh.

Edited March 7, 2017 by taragel

[teddysmom]

Quote

On her Dern's beauty, I only commented on it because someone observed that the shows she stars in have to remind us of her  beauty -- as if they are trying to convince us all.  And that brought about others opinion of her gorgeousness.   I think she's a very capable actress.

What was the HBO movie about the Florida recount? Laura Dern played Kathleen Walker in that and I think got a bunch of award nominations.

With the dark wig and overdrawn lip line and crazy eyes., she had her down pat. 

She is a fantastic actress.  

[MaryWebGirl]

3 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I'm not at all condoning Perry's behavior but if I was Celeste and had no job and a nanny who has been shown to watch the kids even while the parents are home and to fix meals, I think I would find the time to update Perry's calendar with family activities, if only to curtail his outbursts.  But I think she's asserting her own control (good for her, but not if it gets her killed) and also trying to keep him out of her social life.  

I really don't think it matters. If she had told him, he very well could have gotten mad that she was bothering him with some stupid thing he doesn't want to do and lost his temper. If she had just gone ahead and gotten him a ticket he could have gotten mad that she dragged him to something where he was the only dad and lost his temper. If she had decided they were going to the party he could have gotten mad that she was denying the kids something more fun than a princess party and lost his temper. He's an abusive asshole who doesn't thinks Disney on Ice is a good reason to choke his wife. She'll literally never be right, no matter what she does.

[mojoween]

If I'm remembering correctly wasn't Perry ready to go to the birthday party (where there were other dads) but then found out nearly after the fact that plans changed and now it was Disney?

Again, I'm not saying at all he's a good guy.

[mochamajesty]

6 minutes ago, mojoween said:

If I'm remembering correctly wasn't Perry ready to go to the birthday party (where there were other dads) but then found out nearly after the fact that plans changed and now it was Disney?

Again, I'm not saying at all he's a good guy.

No.

He ran into someone who asked if they were going to the party. He asked Celeste,  who explained about Disney.

Edited March 7, 2017 by mochamajesty

[Athena]

Time out. The constant back and forth is derailing the thread. We will unlock this thread later so that people can cool off and be more respectful to one another.

[Athena]

Agree to disagree and move on. Warnings are the next step.

[Lucelu]

2 hours ago, teddysmom said:

What was the HBO movie about the Florida recount? Laura Dern played Kathleen Walker in that and I think got a bunch of award nominations.

With the dark wig and overdrawn lip line and crazy eyes., she had her down pat. 

She is a fantastic actress.  

Yes, she is better than pretty, she is extremely talented.

[scrb]

The way Perry grabs the throat seems more like something Eric Northmann would do, with that dead stare.

[hoodooznoodooz]

21 hours ago, sasha206 said:

 

Even in her prime -- Wild At Heart -- her face still looks to me quite average.  I've seen prettier girls at the local mall.  

And definitely ugly crier.

You TOTALLY captured what I was referring to, thank you!

I agree with you with regard to Wild at Heart. That was supposed to be LD at her sexiest, most desirable, most beautiful-- and I think there are many girls at the mall who are much more attractive. 

But she is aging well, especially for someone with fair skin and blonde hair.  

Edited March 8, 2017 by hoodooznoodooz

[Giesela]

I guess I thought Celeste did't tell Perry about Disney on Ice is that he was having such a meltdonw about Ziggy and the twins not being around him.  The whole trip was basically for Ziggy, somehow that got overshadowed by his (Perry) not being invited. 

[mojoween]

If you hadn't told me that was Laura Dern in that second photograph, I would have bet my mortgage that was a younger photo of her mother.

I wonder how Madeline talks around her kids, because when Jane had her outburst about the hippo, Madeline didn't flinch even though Chloe and Ziggy were right there.  Some people would get all indignant when other parents swear in front of their kids.

[chocolatine]

4 minutes ago, mojoween said:

I wonder how Madeline talks around her kids, because when Jane had her outburst about the hippo, Madeline didn't flinch even though Chloe and Ziggy were right there.  Some people would get all indignant when other parents swear in front of their kids.

In the first episode, when Madeline almost rear-ended the texting teenager, didn't Chloe say "motherfucker"?

[txhorns79]

Quote

Celeste is, for lack of a better word, a housewife. Her job is to make plans for her kids. She doesn't "keep making plans with the kids" -- she is just living her life and helping them live their lives, which includes taking them to the parties and outings they've been invited to. Even if she did run every outing by her husband, most normal husbands wouldn't keep it all straight. This man is controlling and doesn't like when his wife asserts her own authority.

Yeah, this is my impression.  He can't stand the idea that Celeste has anything in her life that doesn't involve him, and that is why he gets angry each time there is some minor event in which he is not included.  I mean, look at the scene, he is strangling her over not being included on some Disney on Ice trip and/or child's birthday party.  Even if she was purposefully excluding him just to be a jerk, his reaction is to physically assault her.  That's just nuts.       

[Razzberry]

Last week I didn't see Ed as a problem, but I'm beginning to think there may be something to his lusting after Abby.   Especially since they cut to this scene immediately after hearing "Some of the men were staring.  I saw erections."  Yay or nay?

 

[preeya]

53 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

Last week I didn't see Ed as a problem, but I'm beginning to think there may be something to his lusting after Abby.   Especially since they cut to this scene immediately after hearing "Some of the men were staring.  I saw erections."  Yay or nay?

 

Yep, I got the same impression. He could be lusting for his step daughter.

[Razzberry]

Being fed such thin slices of their lives is delightful yet frustrating. If Ed isn't lusting after her, then I think they're actively misdirecting based on the transition, which perhaps can be meaningful.  Like this one, that went from Perry & Celeste talking about their dirty secret sex to Renata getting banged in the office.

 

[ChelleGame]

On 3/6/2017 at 7:02 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

I forgot to mention Ziggy screaming "Tell me his name, for Chr*st's sake!"  That really made me laugh. (I don't mean to offend anyone's religious beliefs).

That little actor delivered the hell out of that line.