S21.E09: Week 9

[Canada]

Okay, so when Andi and Nick were chatting and she asked him if she could give him some advice about the Fantasy Suite dates.... did anyone else yell out "don't do finance things!!!!!" at their TV?

Oh Corinne, you're a terrible fake crier!  That was the least convincing performance ever!!  See you on BiP!

[PhysNerd]

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I'll blame Raven for talking about her inability to orgasm on TV but I feel uncomfortable that so many of you blame  women for not being able to have one. If you think there's so much information out there for women to learn or understand their bodies, you're wrong - at least, there was not when I was growing up.  Raven is still young.  I really strongly empathize with her situation.  I feel like I've seen a million television or movie scenes or male standups discuss male masturbations or orgasms but it's very rare that this is depicted on television for women.  Women are also not really taught to be super assertive about their sexuality.

Maybe I should even be happy that Raven brought it up.  I think a lot of people / pop culture really don't give a shit about the female orgasm... it should be discussed way more.

I'm a little confused.  Perhaps I missed something, but I can't recall anyone blaming Raven for not being able to have an orgasm.  A lot of people (myself included) have criticized her for speaking about such a personal matter on TV (and violating her ex's privacy), but not about her inability to have an orgasm.  It's actually a very common problem.    

I feel that if a man or woman is not comfortable with communicating their needs in the bedroom, then they should not be having sex, period.  They are either not ready to have sex at all or they do not feel comfortable with their partner.  How can someone actually consent to sex if they don't feel comfortable telling their partner when something feels good or does not feel good?  
 

[Miss Slay]

Nick has the most chemistry with Andi...

[StatisticalOutlier]

I thought the whole episode was tawdry.  Raven's overshare was bad enough, but I really didn't need to see the flashback of Corinne wearing a bikini and swinging her leg over Nick, with the camera looking on (and almost in, honestly) from due south. 

[jumper sage]

Is it just me or did anyone else think that Rachel would be gone by now due to the announcement of her being the next Bachelorette?  More and more I am convinced that the producers know this is a shit season and just want us to stay tuned for the next one.

Oh Corrine, I liked what she said in the limo.  Yes girl power.  Her parents really should have taught her these ideals while she was growing up.  It seems like they completely missed the mark on sharing their values or maybe they did and she is the product of their values and ideals.

Oh Raven you probably thought this speech would have got you the next bachelorette but no.

[violet and green]

Good grief!

I almost lost the will to live when the show flashed forward to Raven in the snow during the 'rose ceremony', so that leaves Rachel who is going to be the next Bachette, Vanessa who is going to win apparently, and my darling Corinne.... Not looking good for Corinne I thought, as did the tears sneaking out down her plump cheeks. Excellent limo talk with a nap thrown in was a bonus.

But the rest of this thing was dire. That boring ass indoor pub date that could have been filmed anywhere apart from the drunk extras in the furry hats, and then TOO MUCH INFORMATION. Argh!

Nick's eyes went all darty during their intimate one-on-one. I don't think he's into her. He lit up over the ironing though! Really, I just want to watch the Women Tell All, see Taylor get all hard-faced, etc, have a few laughs and watch Nick and Vanessa get cross with each other. The end. What a waste of a season. (Shoulda been Luke!) I can't believe I watch this shit.

There had better be a really good reason why they spoiled Rachel as Bachette... I mean, zero suspense.

If he'd kept Corinne in there would have been the excitement of that and the tantalising possibility of him choosing her, at least....Maybe that was the kind option. The kinder option would have been for Nick to say no to this gig.

Edited March 1, 2017 by violet and green
to add: Finland with its snowy trees was very magical and pretty, though.

[WhoAmIReally]

Andi was a full-on bitch--so coy and fake.  Her advice to poor Nick to just screw all the girls if he felt anything for them at all was just atrocious.  She clearly has no clue what the guy is like.  Idiot that she is, she still didn't get that he was hurt that she screwed him without "loving" him, so why would he do that to other people he cared for?  Why was she on?  Nasty piece of work.

I threw up in my mouth a little when Raven said something to the effect of "Tonight's the night!"--like she was demanding Nick service her to her specifications.  Did she think her demands for orgasms would turn him on?  Just ugh.  What a ninny.  Get yourself a damn vibrator. 

I loved Corinne's reaction.  I think it was sincere, in that she probably does work super-hard to be a guy's fantasy girl (whipped cream, seduction in high heels, etc.) and then gets dumped and thinks she did something wrong.  I hope she takes her empowerment speech to heart.  She's very immature, but very young.  Hopefully, she will grow up some day to be an interesting woman.  She does have a good sense of humor, at least.

[ByTor]

5 hours ago, jumper sage said:

Is it just me or did anyone else think that Rachel would be gone by now due to the announcement of her being the next Bachelorette? 

Nope, I definitely thought the announcement spoiled the final 3 to be Raven, Vanessa, and Corinne.

[Ms Blue Jay]

.

Edited March 1, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[Ms Blue Jay]

Quote

 Perhaps I missed something, but I can't recall anyone blaming Raven for not being able to have an orgasm.

 @PhysNerd.  In my screenshot below I have 4 examples just from just Page 1.  Is that enough or would you like me to keep going?  

Do you really find it impossible that young women have tried to talk to men about their inability to orgasm and that some men's insecurity makes them not receptive, or angry, or avoiding the topic, etc.?  You don't see that as a real issue in relationships?  Raven's, what, 26?  Do you really think men 26 and under are that great at understanding these things? 

Edited March 1, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[hyacinth]

6 hours ago, violet and green said:

Really, I just want to watch the Women Tell All, see Taylor get all hard-faced, etc, have a few laughs and watch Nick and Vanessa get cross with each other. The end. What a waste of a season. (Shoulda been Luke!) I can't believe I watch this shit.

Word.  (Do people still say that?  I don't care.  Word.)   

[JudyObscure]

12 hours ago, Nowhere said:

"Ladies, having trouble reaching orgasm? Take this pill but make sure your orgasm doesn't last more than 4 hours."

Oh if only!  Production could slip it to Raven before the FS date and we could have the audio and a clock going for four hours outside their door. Nick's shaky bedroom reputation would be saved.

Actually, putting all the clues together, Nick might really be the one to do it for Raven.  I didn't read Andi's book, but it was discussed during BIP, and didn't Andi ridicule Nick for asking too many questions during sex?  Something like, "Do you want fun sex or tender sex?" He might bring to the bedroom, what I call optometrist sex, "Better here or better here?"  Since Raven is shy in all the wrong places he may be just what she needs.

[yorklee2]

33 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Oh if only!  Production could slip it to Raven before the FS date and we could have the audio and a clock going for four hours outside their door. Nick's shaky bedroom reputation would be saved.

Actually, putting all the clues together, Nick might really be the one to do it for Raven.  I didn't read Andi's book, but it was discussed during BIP, and didn't Andi ridicule Nick for asking too many questions during sex?  Something like, "Do you want fun sex or tender sex?" He might bring to the bedroom, what I call optometrist sex, "Better here or better here?"  Since Raven is shy in all the wrong places he may be just what she needs.

Funny JudyObscure but in all seriousness you might be on to something here. Logic would have anyone think he should steer clear of having sex with her since she apparently doesn't (knowingly or ignorantly?) care to share intimate details. And especially if he doesn't intend to pick her in the end. But I would think (or at least hope) that she has learned a valuable lesson from her time on this show and we won't hear anymore about it after it's all done. Sometimes unfortunately lessons are better learned the hard way.

Edited March 1, 2017 by yorklee2

[Bobcatkitten]

The only thing I got out of the Andi visit was her telling him it's fine to have sex with all three women if he wants. Maybe they said other things but I didn't care.

I agree with everyone else who is frustrated that this season sucks and much of that is how they are airing the episodes; ruining things etc. 

[Jax7917]

This season's women were pretty terrible, but Nick did let some of the better ones go. Any of the super nice ones were sure to go. IMO kristina (although her voice grates) is the best bachelorette option for me . I think shes really pretty and has a normal personality. I just don't see 25 guys fighting over Rachel. I don't find her too pretty. But she is one of the most mature ones on the show.

P.S corinne is already talking about all the reality shows she's being offered, so she might not appear on BIP due to being so high in demand. Barf.

[MsPH]

2 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

 @PhysNerd.  In my screenshot below I have 4 examples just from just Page 1.  Is that enough or would you like me to keep going?  

Do you really find it impossible that young women have tried to talk to men about their inability to orgasm and that some men's insecurity makes them not receptive, or angry, or avoiding the topic, etc.?  You don't see that as a real issue in relationships?  Raven's, what, 26?  Do you really think men 26 and under are that great at understanding these things? 

I think the problem is that at some point Raven said she's never had an orgasm before, as in at all. It's totally understandable to have trouble orgasming during intercourse or whatever, the majority of women do, but if she's never even given herself an orgasm, then how can she expect a man to do it for her? I for one think everyone should learn to pleasure themselves first before even trying to have sex with another person. You know what feels good for you better than anyone, since you're the one feeling it. If you can't even "crack the code" yourself then how much chance does another person, who has no idea what you're feeling, have? But perhaps she thinks masturbation will make her go blind or something.

In any case, I also didn't like how she seemed to expect sex would be happening and that Nick might be the man to finally please her. He himself said he has no expectations, yet she started insinuating things in the pub already and then dropped the big O reveal just before heading into the FS. He looked really uncomfortable.

[Ms Blue Jay]

So, I decided to Google it.  In 2015 Womens Health Mag said that 45 percent of women surveyed had their first orgasm between the age of 18 to 24 - not before.  I think some of you are being kind of ignorant of a huge percentage of women's reality, kind of like how people who have always had money seem to think money comes really easily to people.

Edited March 1, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[ljenkins782]

20 minutes ago, scribe95 said:

The only thing I got out of the Andi visit was her telling him it's fine to have sex with all three women if he wants. Maybe they said other things but I didn't care.

Which was so not the direction I thought that advice giving was going to go. Or should go, especially if he picks Vanessa at the end, who is apparently quite fragile. I think the clearest sign that there is a "one" would be declining the "fiance type stuff" with the others. 

Quote

I almost lost the will to live when the show flashed forward to Raven in the snow during the 'rose ceremony', so that leaves Rachel who is going to be the next Bachette, Vanessa who is going to win apparently, and my darling Corinne.... Not looking good for Corinne I thought, as did the tears sneaking out down her plump cheeks. Excellent limo talk with a nap thrown in was a bonus.

I actually thought the broadcast got messed up when they showed that extended clip of Raven in Finland while we were still allegedly waiting to see if she made it through the rose ceremony, it seemed like the show fast forwarded for a minute. 

I continue to be surprised that Rachel stays since they went out of their way to spoil that weeks ago now. The only suspense left is what actually happens between them, I guess, but I don't get the feeling it's going to be terribly juicy or dramatic. 

Corinne's performance was weak and now that she had such a lackluster exit, I'm wondering why on earth they shoved her down our throats all season. I always assumed she was headed for an epic exit and they were greasing the path toward it, but I guess the season was just boring and they had to fill the air space with something. I noticed from her Skype interview with Kimmel that she's lost the show weight, she was very noticeably filling out along the way. 

I had actually chosen Raven as my favorite on the first night but the shine has fallen off since then, I find her a bit irritating now. 

I think I'm ready for this one to be over. I am interested in the Women Tell All episode, but I really don't care who "wins" and have even lower than usual expectation that the relationship will actually work out. 

[OnceSane]

Calling out your fellow posters is not okay, especially over orgasms.  Those are supposed to be fun.  Move on.

[MsPH]

15 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

So, I decided to Google it.  In 2015 Womens Health Mag said that 45 percent of women surveyed had their first orgasm between the age of 18 to 24 - not before.  I think some of you are being kind of ignorant of a huge percentage of women's reality, kind of like how people who have always had money seem to think money comes really easily to people.

I would fall into that bracket as well, so I don't doubt it. Raven is 25-26, however, and still talking like she's expecting a man to give her orgasm. I don't support that kind of helplessness in women. It's no one else's responsibility to figure out how your body works before you figure it out yourself, unless we're talking about an actual medical issue, then a trip to a gynecologist would be in order. If she's tried and tried and still can't make it happen, then that's very unfortunate, but the last thing she should be expecting is for a man to fix that issue for her.

[truthaboutluv]

3 minutes ago, OnceSane said:

Calling out your fellow posters is not okay, especially over orgasms.  Those are supposed to be fun.  Move on.

I'm sorry but this just made me very inappropriately laugh out loud at work. This is what the ridiculousness of this show does to us - arguing about orgasms.

[fib]

I don't think there's anything wrong with Raven's lack of orgasms, but do think it complicates her position with Nick: this orgasmlessness changes her persona from what we have been shown thus far: 

Up til now, she was the feisty, adventurous, straight talking contestant.  A breath of fresh air for him.  I feel like we are supposed to have believed she is kind of wild. 

Now, she has just presented this, sort of, demure side? Its not demure to share explicit details about your sex life, but a lack of sexual satisfication indicates a certain lack of curiosity and adventurousness and communication. 

I think THAT will scare Nick more than her oversharing. He has told us he likes his relationships "raw".  A lack of sexual adventurousness or openness doesnt seem to fit that.  

Poor Raven, I don't think this is going to have a happy ending for her. 

[NaughtyKitty]

I hated this episode….

I didn’t like Andi’s smug bitchy condescending self back then and I certainly didn’t need to see it now.  Why show?  Why?

Raven.  Oh, Raven.  No one needs to know about your lack of O.  Much less talking about it in every ITM. That should have been saved for Nick alone in the FS. You parents must be horrified.  It’s sad to me because I actually like her a lot and hope that by being on this show she is able to find a decent guy.

I think I figured out why they had the girls stand outside in the bitter cold.  So they could show us the sign for the hotel to get that discount

Speaking of getting discounts, that had to be the only reason why they showed Nick checking in to his flight.  Right?  Utterly useless scene

[yorklee2]

16 minutes ago, fib said:

I don't think there's anything wrong with Raven's lack of orgasms, but do think it complicates her position with Nick: this orgasmlessness changes her persona from what we have been shown thus far: 

Up til now, she was the feisty, adventurous, straight talking contestant.  A breath of fresh air for him.  I feel like we are supposed to have believed she is kind of wild. 

Now, she has just presented this, sort of, demure side? Its not demure to share explicit details about your sex life, but a lack of sexual satisfication indicates a certain lack of curiosity and adventurousness and communication. 

I think THAT will scare Nick more than her oversharing. He has told us he likes his relationships "raw".  A lack of sexual adventurousness or openness doesnt seem to fit that.  

Poor Raven, I don't think this is going to have a happy ending for her. 

No I don't think it will have a happy ending either. And who knows what went on in Nick's head but I think you can be feisty and adventurous and still demure at the same time. We are allowed to have many facets to our personality. I think Raven is very curious about her sexuality she's just still taking baby steps if you will. She also implied (and confirmed in a interview with Glamour mag) that she was in love with her ex but didn't feel she could totally trust him. Hence the reason she didn't feel comfortable telling him she loved him and the reason she suspected she couldn't achieve orgasm with him. I noticed also that she never said she hadn't pleasured herself. Only that her ex wasn't able to bring her to climax. Maybe she tried to tell him and he was selfish and not receptive to it? Point is a lot of assumptions are being jumped to and maybe everything is not quite what it seems.

[huahaha]

3 hours ago, scribe95 said:

The only thing I got out of the Andi visit was her telling him it's fine to have sex with all three women if he wants. Maybe they said other things but I didn't care.

What Andi really said was, "Please have sex with multiple women, rather than trying to prove I was wrong to sleep with you on my season. Seriously, that's not a battle worth winning. I'm not going to call you out on Twitter. Maybe. Also, having sex on television is very feminist."

[PhysNerd]

I really don't think Nick should be taking advice from Andi....she chose Josh so she doesn't exactly have good judgment. 

Edited March 1, 2017 by PhysNerd

[thejuicer]

Andi needs to learn what being a feminist means. 

[sekay87]

Does anyone else feel like Vanessa and Andi resemble each other a bit? There are some pictures Vanessa puts on Instagram where I feel like they could be related.

[sekay87]

Nick has the most chemistry with Andi...

Agree whole-heartedly with this. I still sense something between them, and honestly both of them have borderline insufferable personalities that seem to fit well together. But it's not happening.

[sekay87]

  On 2/28/2017 at 10:07 AM, the eskimo said:

Well, it seems that all of the ladies were given a stern talking-to about the lack of spider-monkeying and we now will have the pleasure of watching each of them awkwardly climb Mt. Hipster, who wears skinny jeans even in snow-capped Finland.

I have no judgement about women discussing sex openly, but I do feel like this is the first time the word sex has been openly mentioned in relation to the fantasy suite. It actually made me wonder how many years it will take before there is a pay-per-view option to see the overnights in all their glory. 

I vaguely remember Trista telling Alex in season 1 that she had never had one...anyone else recall this??

She did! And then on her season of Bachelorette it became a big thing on FS dates because it was revealed Alex didn't give her one either. Funny how when it was Trista no one cares but with Raven she's getting so criticized for it.

[fib]

2 minutes ago, sekay87 said:

She did! And then on her season of Bachelorette it became a big thing on FS dates because it was revealed Alex didn't give her one either. Funny how when it was Trista no one cares but with Raven she's getting so criticized for it.

I dont think it helps that this isnt the first disparaging thing Raven has said about her ex or that the person in question has been identified.  

[WhoAmIReally]

4 hours ago, yorklee2 said:

I noticed also that she never said she hadn't pleasured herself. Only that her ex wasn't able to bring her to climax. Maybe she tried to tell him and he was selfish and not receptive to it? Point is a lot of assumptions are being jumped to and maybe everything is not quite what it seems.

I'm pretty sure she said she'd never had an orgasm ever.  Not going to watch it again to get the quote, though. 

[fib]

18 minutes ago, WhoAmIReally said:

I'm pretty sure she said she'd never had an orgasm ever.  Not going to watch it again to get the quote, though. 

I caught the same thing.  Though the main comment was repeated so often that i lost my ability to determine if the time this was said, it was a splice job.  

[nlkm9]

1 hour ago, sekay87 said:

She did! And then on her season of Bachelorette it became a big thing on FS dates because it was revealed Alex didn't give her one either. Funny how when it was Trista no one cares but with Raven she's getting so criticized for it.

and the fact that this was so long ago before the show really jumped the shark and got so crazy. Back then I really beleived I was watching a love story. I dont remember her saying Alex didnt give her one. lol.

[jumper sage]

3 hours ago, huahaha said:

What Andi really said was, "Please have sex with multiple women, rather than trying to prove I was wrong to sleep with you on my season. Seriously, that's not a battle worth winning. I'm not going to call you out on Twitter. Maybe. Also, having sex on television is very feminist."

I agree with your statement.

I think we need to see a cross show episode with Raven and Kandi from RHoA.

[betha]

Quote

What Andi really said was, "Please have sex with multiple women, rather than trying to prove I was wrong to sleep with you on my season. Seriously, that's not a battle worth winning. I'm not going to call you out on Twitter. Maybe. Also, having sex on television is very feminist."

Exactly! I bet show producers were worried he wouldn't sleep with them all and thus ruin suspense/drama/the show. Because he would have been afraid of looking like a hypocrite since he called Andi out on this behavior. So they called Andi in to set him free. 

Regarding Raven, I was listening to hear whether she had ever had an orgasm or if she just hadn't with her ex. Pretty sure it was the latter- never with her ex. Sounds like they didn't have the trust/communication for her to feel comfortable telling him how to help her. Here's hoping she has learned that if she doesn't feel comfortable expressing her needs, it isn't a relationship worth pursuing.

[racked]

21 hours ago, sekay87 said:

She did! And then on her season of Bachelorette it became a big thing on FS dates because it was revealed Alex didn't give her one either. Funny how when it was Trista no one cares but with Raven she's getting so criticized for it.

Trista actually said she'd never had an orgasm through penetrative sex. I heard her on some post-Bachelor interviews talking about how she was able to climax through oral and on her own, just not intercourse. 

[StatisticalOutlier]

6 hours ago, racked said:

Trista actually said she'd never had an orgasm through penetrative sex. I heard her on some post-Bachelor interviews talking about how she was able to climax through oral and on her own, just not intercourse. 

I'm speechless.

[sasha206]

On 2/27/2017 at 9:11 PM, Superpole2000 said:

"My ex never made me orgasm."

No pressure, Nick! But Raven...that's kind of your own fault too for not figuring out what you like and/or not demanding/requesting it. At this point, I feel like she came on this show as some sort of revenge on her ex because she seems to be all about embarrassing him.

I'm cringing with embarrassment.

And I don't think Raven is even remotely attractive. 

On 3/1/2017 at 2:43 PM, thejuicer said:

Andi needs to learn what being a feminist means. 

Andi also needs to stop with the fillers.  She looks like she's 50 and plastic.

[yorklee2]

On 3/1/2017 at 4:18 PM, WhoAmIReally said:

I'm pretty sure she said she'd never had an orgasm ever.  Not going to watch it again to get the quote, though. 

Call me crazy but I did. I wanted to see if I had heard it wrong or misinterpreted it. She did say, "I've never had a orgasm". So I stand corrected. She said it one time and the show kept repeating it for effect. But when she told Nick she said only that she hadn't with her ex. I find it extremely hard to believe that at (24?) she hasn't pleasured herself but at the same time I think giving Raven's being as @JudyObscure said, "shy in all the wrong places", meant in her mind that she didn't associate self pleasurement with orgasm. In other words I think in her ignorance she believes that the word orgasm literally only pertains to having sex so thus in her mind she had never had one. That's just the feeling I get from her. 

I think her whole persona from start to finish has been puzzling. On one hand she seems easy going, personable and yes spunky but then we get this backward, demure, ignorance and lack of self awareness from her. Now I believe you can have different facets to your personality but as others have thought and said is she really just trying to manipulate everyone? I'm starting to believe she has a unhealthy mix of all these points. I think she dwells too much on her ex and probably gets enjoyment out of embarrassing him but she also is genuinely kind and down to earth. Kind of like the having the, "devil on one shoulder and the angel on the other". I also think production has so played up her faults. I saw a interview online with Ashley I earlier in the season where she was asked by the hosts why was Corrine dwelling on her nanny so much. She wasn't condemning Corrine much as she said that production was at fault. She said that in her case they specifically told her to mention her virginity as much as possible. Point being that I'm sure the producers have encouraged Raven to speak her mind and be forthcoming. If she is trying to manipulate things then in her ignorance she doesn't realize that she's no match when it comes to the big guns, the ultimate manipulators.

Edited March 3, 2017 by yorklee2

[Wandering Snark]

Well put yorklee2. To rework a phrase on this show there is obviously three sides to every story, the producers, the contestants and the truth. I'm sure the issue of 'Will the real Raven please stand up?" is muddled up in that equation. We'll never know.

[himela]

Being a virgin is sooo last year, the new "it" thing is to never have had an orgasm!

[Mabinogia]

I think Raven likes to say things for effect. She seems to want to shock or at least surprise people with how wild she can be. I think a lot of what she says is exaggerated. She maybe threw her shoe at the ex, or hit him once with it, she has probably pleasured herself into an orgasm (God I hope so, otherwise, I will just feel too bad for the girl!) but that doesn't sound as cool as attacking him with her stiletto or never having had an orgasm.

I can't help but wonder if she was angling for her own reality show but that got eaten by The Great and Powerful Vagine! She's definitely got Paradise written all over her. I was turned off of her back when I heard she had made Team Raven tee shirts before she show even started.

[Stinamaia]

You never know with this show.  It's also possible the entire O story is a producer invention they talked Raven into presenting.  If she prepared t-shirts before the show started, it seems she would be open to producers telling her it would be a nifty story line and intrigue Nick etc. etc.

it could also be true, and the producers egged her on.

i really don't care about Raven or her orgasms or her turning her boyfriend's cheating into a big violent scene.  It's also possible that was not true or incredibly embellished.  After all the Arkansas outlets went curiously silent during that tale.

[WhoAmIReally]

Random thoughts:

I haven't been a Raven fan since her Bible, beer, and football announcement.  I guess Nick likes beer, so maybe that'll be enough for lasting love.

Don't remember if this was mentioned early on, but the black women I talk to about this show can't stop talking about how awful Rachel's "weave" is.  I think her hair looks scraggly but not too bad.  Is that her natural hair or is it a weave?  I cannot tell.  I'm assuming they'll fix it up when she's the Bachelorette.  I'm looking forward to her season--hope she comes out of her shell a little since she's a little reserved for a crazy good time in Bachelorette world.  She and Vanessa have been my favorites since the beginning.  Is it frightening that Nick and I have the same taste?  Don't like Vanessa so much since her family visit. 

[1992austenlover]

On 2/28/2017 at 8:32 AM, truthaboutluv said:

He still didn't apologize for what he actually said. He remained consistent since he said it years ago - that he was sorry for the backlash and judgement she got for it. And Nick has always been adamant on that, which is why right after the ATFR in his media interviews, he stated clearly that his feeling wasn't that just because Andi slept with him meant she had to pick him.

It was how cold and unfeeling she came across to him (and she was) that left him confused as to why she would sleep with him. And he admitted that maybe he didn't articulate that as well as he could have. So he's still not sorry he said it, just sorry she got shit for it. I feel like Andi and Nick have in recent times bonded over their mutual disdain for Josh. Well actually I think Nick is more indifferent to Josh than anything else. 

And the thing is, I feel like that might have turned Nick off really fast, if he was thinking about sleeping with her. Because as noted, now he has to think she'll probably go share in minute details everything that happened if they sleep together and two, talk about pressure - "hey this guy I was with for 2 years, only been with him, never told him I loved him and he never gave me an orgasm but after 6 wks and a handful of alone time, I'm totes in love with you and ready for you to rock my world". Um, okay then. 

As predicted, once Corinne had a HTD so viewers (and well Nick to be honest, he did seem curious) got a chance to meet the infamous Raquel, she was gone. And after a few seconds of boo-hooing, she went right back to napping. Good times. 

Whoever made the decision to stick these women on some New York rooftop in freaking Oct/Nov (based on filming schedule it would have been around that time) deserves a kick. I couldn't even appreciate any of the women's dresses because they all had to cover it up with those heavy coats. 

Well we're almost to the end and blessedly so because the producers/editors have done a hatchet job on this season in my opinion.  I don't think Nick was the issue because I don't believe he was any worse than other leads and in fact I don't think he was sleazier like some labeled him as, especially with the early season Corinne stuff.

I think, true to his being a one woman kind of guy, despite whatever narrative some have built about him and the show tries to sell, Nick was truly into one person from the start and basically kept trying with the other women because there is a show to produce. And that's what came across like he didn't connect with anyone and really isn't into anyone. Because he was really just trying with them.

And unpopular opinion perhaps but I do think that was Vanessa which resulted in the edit they've given their relationship. In my opinion, Nick was done after his and Vanessa's 1 on 1, because interestingly I noticed a lot of the over the top antics with Corinne disappeared and was toned way down right after that conversation with him and Vanessa. Yeah Corinne was kept because no way producers would get rid of her but there were no more bouncy castles, whip cream, etc. When she came to his room, he turned her down. 

After Nick and Vanessa's 1 on 1 it was obvious to most viewers that he was likely choosing her, based on the reactions around online. And after that, the editors had her pretty much vanish, even on group dates that she was a part of, you wouldn't see any conversation between them. Then when she gets a second 1 on 1, it ends on an awkward note with Nick seemingly rejecting her I Love You. Then the HTD is the "disaster" HTD that happens every season. And the preview suggests more issues on their F3 date. 

And in my opinion, it's all to sell the idea that Nick ends up picking no one or ends up alone because most people don't see the chemistry between him and Raven, we all know he eliminates Rachel at some point and Vanessa is now perceived as humorless and someone he will never be happy with if he picks her because all that's been shown in the last two episodes is them supposedly so "unhappy" with each other. But I don't buy it. I think Nick wanted Vanessa almost from the start and was likely always going to pick her and based on the number of times I've heard him describe his type, in my opinion, it makes perfect sense why she would be the one he wanted. 

No joke, Vanessa and Nick's first one-on-one date is probably my favourite date in the history of the show. Their chemistry was just off-the-charts amazing and the fact that Nick cried at dinner because he claimed that it was the first time in the experience that he felt optimistic about the process working out in  the end...everything about it was simply amazing. I guess, as a viewer, I'm just frustrated that we don't get to see that relationship unfold. Recently, Vanessa has been portrayed as fairly humourless and entitled (to be frank) and their relationship has seemingly deteriorated into a series of tough conversations and arguments that are not making me optimistic about their chances for post-show survival, whatsoever. I really want to love them again--because, I was so in love them after their first one-on-one date--but the damn show is making it impossible for me to do so. Instead, I've spent the last weeks falling in love with Nick and Rachel's relationship despite the fact that everyone knows that they don't end up together because she's the next Bachelorette. I completely blame the editing for my frustrations because, like I've mentioned before in the other thread, I've really enjoyed Nick as the bachelor and I really don't think that he's the sleazy, classless misogynist that some people like to make him out to be. I really want him to find love and I wish him the best...but damn...I really hope that his relationship with Vanessa is better than how the show is choosing to portray it. 

[peachmangosteen]

20 minutes ago, 1992austenlover said:

I've really enjoyed Nick as the bachelor and I really don't think that he's the sleazy, classless misogynist that some people like to make him out to be. 

This reminded me that I saw a comment on the DWtS board calling Nick a misogynist and I was so taken aback. Granted, I've only really seen him on BiP and this season of The Bachelor, but he is about the furthest thing from a misogynist that I've seen on any show within this franchise. What has he done that's gotten him that label?

[truthaboutluv]

11 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

This reminded me that I saw a comment on the DWtS board calling Nick a misogynist and I was so taken aback. Granted, I've only really seen him on BiP and this season of The Bachelor, but he is about the furthest thing from a misogynist that I've seen on any show within this franchise. What has he done that's gotten him that label?

The only thing I can think of is they heard about his comment to Andi after the ATFR and jumped on the bandwagon that he was slut shaming her. The thing is most of these people probably don't watch The Bachelor/Bachelorette and just vaguely know the leads and basically already think they're all famewhores anyway. And the fact is Nick has been a very polarizing person in this franchise.

And most people just go on face value with things. So they see a few things here and there and it's like, "oh yeah he's awful". I mean I've even seen where some, in explaining to others why Nick is apparently so bad, use him and Kaitlyn sleeping together before FS as proof of his misogyny and blame him for her being slut shamed for that. How that makes sense, I don't know. 

[1992austenlover]

Just now, peachmangosteen said:

This reminded me that I saw a comment on the DWtS board calling Nick a misogynist and I was so taken aback. Granted, I've only really seen him on BiP and this season of The Bachelor, but he is about the furthest thing from a misogynist that I've seen on any show within this franchise. What has he done that's gotten him that label?

Well, I've never thought of him as a misogynist...but I do understand that people haven't forgiven him for the things that he has said and done when he was on the Bachelorette. When Nick was first introduced to this world, he was portrayed as the villain. He was very open about the fact that he didn't care about the other guys and that he was only there for Andi, which naturally made him a target and isolated himself from the group. He came across as overconfident and possessive...and kind of arrogant, to be honest--but I guess that his one redeeming quality at the time was that I genuinely believed that his feelings for Andi were very real and that, despite acknowledging the fact that he was a skeptic about this process, he still managed to fall in love with her. Fast-forward to the After the Final Rose, where Nick says something to the effect of "why would you make love with me if you didn't love me?" which was probably the pettiest thing that he could have said to Andi in that moment. Granted, Andi was incredibly cold to him up until that point and the fact that she refused to speak with him after he had made repeated attempts to get in touch with her post-show may have driven him a little crazy...but still, it was a not a good look. And then the following season, Kaitlyn became the bachelorette and Nick had found himself back in the game. The fact that he came in late may have been a little off-putting at first (personally, I didn't have a problem with it given the weird first-night twist of Kaitlyn versus Britt where the men got to choose their bachelorette), but I think the fact that he slept with Kaitlyn before the fantasy suite pretty much reaffirmed his villain status to the general viewing public. I actually didn't start liking Nick until the end of Kaitlyn's season when I realized that I wanted Kaitlyn to choose him over Shawn. The look of devastation that Nick had when he was standing in front of Kaitlyn, with the ring in his hand, ready to propose only to be rejected once again...I guess I started to see him in a different light. As flawed as he was, I started seeing him as someone who was very open and vulnerable and honest...I actually really wanted him to be the Bachelor the following season (I mean, I love Ben and I was glad that he was the bachelor but I was more invested in Nick's story to find love).  Then Bachelor in Paradise happened and I was happy because it seemed like people were starting to see what I saw in Nick and I didn't feel quite so alone lol. Now that he's the Bachelor, I guess that it's only natural that the naysayers would be out in full-force and hating on him for being given the opportunity to make-out with a bunch of women in order to find the one...but I don't think that Nick has been more sleazy than previous bachelors so I just chalk-up the "Nick is a misogynist" comments to personal bias and an inability to forgive Nick for his past transgressions. 

[truthaboutluv]

Personally I always thought Nick's "villain" status was bullshit and everything he was so hated for were viewers blowing something way out of proportion as they often do with this ridiculous show. I definitely think he's arrogant and a total famewhore at this point but all this need for redemption and villain and he was so awful until BiP - oh please. The whole narrative is so exaggerated and ridiculous.

Edited March 4, 2017 by truthaboutluv