S01.E11: The World's Columbian Exposition

[CooperTV]

Quote

Lucy's situation grows desperate after she's taken captive by Flynn and brought to the 1893 Chicago World's Fair. In their dogged pursuit of Lucy, Wyatt and Rufus fall into a sinister trap.

[methodwriter85]

Are we going to run into H.H. Holmes, or is that just a tad too dark for the show?

[CooperTV]

Promo pictures

[legaleagle53]

5 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

Are we going to run into H.H. Holmes, or is that just a tad too dark for the show?

You mean the serial killer of that era?  

Spoiler

Yes.

[MisterGlass]

This was a bit disappointing.  I feel like someone read the Cliff's Notes of Devil in the White City, but as usual there is a lack of accuracy on some things.

I expected some actual consequences to the historical record from last week. 

[Bort]

I really liked the episode. Houdini was awesome. Holmes was appropriately sinister and satisfyingly offed, because his demise before his time ultimately does nothing to history + it saves later lives. 

And I didn't expect US history to really be changed much. Benedict Arnold's betrayal ultimately is never successful, so when he dies doesn't really matter much to American history. Ditto to that other British officer Flynn killed (who's name escapes me at the moment -- it is late and I am tired), Flynn pointed out that some other British guy would end up doing the same thing anyway in his place.

[ketose]

I was a little bored at times with the episode. I did enjoy how bad ass they made Houdini. He did something Wyatt couldn't, catch Flynn. They should have scooped him up for the team.

At this point, the show is becoming an advertisement for Rittenhouse. Flynn seems to go around killing people because RH is so evil. What? They're rich people who control the little guy. That's pretty much the case everywhere and every time in history. Flynn almost took away the American Auto industry.

[KaveDweller]

22 minutes ago, MisterGlass said:

I expected some actual consequences to the historical record from last week. 

Yeah, I figure at least they should have had a throwaway reference to how some other general surrendered after Cornwalis was killed, but it happened at the same time. I also think they should have explained exactly what Flynn did when he went back to 1780. I know he said he failed to stop Rittenhouse, but he must have changed something.

I don't get why Rufus was suddenly in so much danger because they killed the original Rittenhouse. They killed him, so the current Rittenhouse will remember it as the founder always getting killed. They wouldn't know it was something Rufus did. They'd just know he deleted the latest recording.

This episode wasn't my favorite, but I did like this episode, and I loved the use of Houdini. This show continues to be great at fleshing out historical figures and making me care about them.

[benteen]

I very much enjoyed this episode.  Michael Drayer was great as Houdini.  Definitely much different in terms of performance and look than he is on Mr. Robot and Sneaky Pete (he's very good in those shows too).  Plus, he caught Flynn which Wyatt hasn't done yet.  Speaking of which, Wyatt might have killed the first serial killer but this might have been his weakest episode yet.  He's not exactly doing a great job being the "muscle" of this team.

Flynn really needs to be put down.  He's completely out-of-control with what he's doing.

HH Holmes was mentioned on the most recent season of Sherlock.

[methodwriter85]

They were with the killer all along!

I did really like Houdini. Too bad they can't keep him around.

I think I've accepted that the conceit is this show is that history always finds a way to stay more or less the same, because damn I can't believe there weren't any consequences from last episode.

[thuganomics85]

"Hey, Houdini!  Give me my gun back!"  I do enjoy how this show leads to lines I never thought I would here before.  Houdini in general was one of the best characters of the week, and I still can't believe it is the same actor who played Cisco on Mr. Robot.  Dude his a chameleon.

Of course, Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, and J.P. Morgan are all part of Rittenhouse.  I'm pretty sure every historical figure that has skeletons in their closet or a shady history, is going to be part of that group.

Not my favorite episode, but I enjoyed it enough.  I did like that Lucy wasn't completely damseled, and actually used her how wits and intelligence to get out of most of the situations, even if did require help from the rest of them.  While I still wonder why the rest of the group acts like they just can't Wikipedia shit whenever she isn't around, I think she proving her worth in the team.

Liked Sophia and the actress playing her.  Automatically was suspicious of George simply because of the mustache.  It's always the mustache.

Flynn keeps his word and tells Wyatt who the killer is, and is now totally trying to convince Wyatt to do something about it.  Granted, Wyatt doesn't really need to harm his parents.  He could just find a way to have them never meet.  But if I've learned anything from time-traveling shows, that alone will cause something horrible like World War III, an astroid to hit Earth, or a Star Wars film directed by Michael Bay.

Rufus is finally drawing a line and standing against Rittenhouse.  They probably will fall back for now, but I'm sure they'll find a way to call his bluff.  Mason truly did seem concern for him, so I guess he's not too bad on the shady, businessman scale of things.

[HunterHunted]

1 hour ago, kariyaki said:

I really liked the episode. Houdini was awesome. Holmes was appropriately sinister and satisfyingly offed, because his demise before his time ultimately does nothing to history + it saves later lives. 

And I didn't expect US history to really be changed much. Benedict Arnold's betrayal ultimately is never successful, so when he dies doesn't really matter much to American history. Ditto to that other British officer Flynn killed (who's name escapes me at the moment -- it is late and I am tired), Flynn pointed out that some other British guy would end up doing the same thing anyway in his place.

I liked the Houdini and murder hotel stuff, but this episode desperately needed someone besides Lucy arguing with Flynn about the ramifications of killing Edison, Ford, and J. P. Morgan. You can't kill those people and not collapse most of modern American history especially technological, manufacturing, and engineering history. Edison still had like 300 patents that were approved after 1893 in the U.S. Who knows how many more in other countries. Killing those people almost certainly makes enough of a difference that there is no more time machine program. This was a cartoonishly stupid plan to stop Rittenhouse. Congratulations Flynn! You saved your family because your wife was never born. Her father's family never moved from Oklahoma to Michigan to work at the Ford factory. Brilliant plan dipshit!

Edited January 17, 2017 by HunterHunted

[henripootel]

This episode nicely sums up the show for me - I like the actor who played Houdini and I liked character Houdini, rolled my eyes that the guy who helps them has to be the Houdini.  Guy was an excellent escape artist but it just doesn't track for me he's also the guy you need for a caper.  If ever you need to rob a bank, I strongly suggest you don't press-gang Chris Angel.  Yes, I totally hated Now You See Me. 

As always, loved the CGI work, the glimpses we saw of the Chicago World's Columbian Exposition were pretty cool.

Didn't buy that anyone who knew anything about HH Holmes would hesitate at all at killing him.  In real life, he went on to kill a couple more folks, including several children.  Even with the cops arriving soon he might get away so fuck that guy, he gets a bullet.

Edited January 17, 2017 by henripootel

[benteen]

16 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

I liked the Houdini and murderers hotel stuff, but this episode desperately needed someone besides Lucy arguing with Flynn about the ramifications of killing Edison, Ford, and J. P. Morgan. You can't kill those people and not collapse most of modern American history especially technological, manufacturing, and engineering history. Edison still had like 300 patents that were approved after 1893 in the U.S. Who knows how many more in other countries. Killing those people almost certainly makes enough of a difference that there is no more time machine program. This was a cartoonishly plan to stop Rittenhouse. Congratulations Flynn! You saved your family because your wife was never born. Her father's family never moved from Oklahoma to Michigan to work at the Ford factory. Brilliant plan dipshit!

Yeah, this is a big problem when it comes to Flynn's character.  The changes he's trying to make are massive and would have catastrophic consequences that would most likely effect people all the down to Flynn.  Flynn probably should have been wiped out of existence when he saved his mother's first child because her life absolutely would have changed 100%.  His strategy is inane and he's probably ensuring his wife was never born with the actions he is taking.

14 minutes ago, henripootel said:

 

Didn't buy that anyone who knew anything about HH Holmes would hesitate at all at killing him.  In real life, he went on to kill a couple more folks, including several children.  Even with the cops arriving soon he might get away so fuck that guy, he gets a bullet.

Agreed.  I expected Wyatt to kill him the second he learned that Holmes was going to lie to the police after turning himself in.  I don't think you needed to justify the shooting by having Holmes make a move on him at the last second.  Weak.

[phalange]

I probably should have seen it coming, but I was honestly shocked when it turned out to be Holmes locked in with them all along. I like that it wasn't just the guys saving Lucy, but that she saved them too, and at the end, also kinda saved herself by using her knowledge of history to mess with Holmes. Houdini's character was fun. I liked learning about the architect, Sophia, who, according to the writers on Twitter, really was the first woman to graduate from MIT and designed the Women's Pavilion at the Chicago World's Fair. Between this one and the episode with Katherine Johnson, I appreciate the writers including women whose accomplishments and contributions to history are often ignored.

The ending with Flynn giving Wyatt the name of Jessica's killer will set up some interesting story lines for future episodes, and I'm interested to see what Wyatt plans to do and if he shares this info with Lucy and Rufus.

[Boofish]

I love this show. The casting of historical figures has so far been the best part me .. I completely fell in love with Katherine Johnson, Ian Fleming, Bonnie Parker and now Harry Houdini. I don't mind when shows about things that will nor can never occur play fast and loose with history. My mother always said the truth is like your favorite shoes - if you want (them) it bad enough, you will find (them) it :)

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Good episode, turned better after Lucy & Houdini ditched Flynn - although, by this point, one would think that one of Flynn's major priorities would be somehow disabling or damaging the linkage between the Mothership & the Lifeboat, so he can't be tracked or as soon as they always do. 

But they are making Flynn come off as cartoonish, at times - you know, the type where the 'evil mastermind' who talks a big game but only just twirls his mustache and smirks or laughs sinisterly while doing nothing (of significance) in the process.  He makes these heinous threats that basically just become idle ones.  And he's such a (now, since RH killed his family) 'horrible human being', he calls Wyatt to honor his deal he made with him in regards to using BA to reach the original RH - right after Lucy & the team foiled him and his dastardly plans [yet again].  It just doesn't compute.

I'm more eager to see what's changed in the present, unless all the BA/RH stuff will be largely ignored and made nonsensical that such a large shift in history, at that point in time, would have little to no effect in present time.

Edited January 17, 2017 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[possibilities]

2 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

I don't get why Rufus was suddenly in so much danger because they killed the original Rittenhouse

He's in danger because he's refusing to make recordings of the missions, and surely if the recordings showed the team working to destroy Rittenhouse, the current Rittenhouse dude would not like it. Rufus decided not to collaborate in any way with the Rittenhouse agenda.

 

1 hour ago, thuganomics85 said:

Houdini in general was one of the best characters of the week, and I still can't believe it is the same actor who played Cisco on Mr. Robot.

Wow, I didn't recognize him at all. Really enjoyed Houdini, and I'm not an actual Houdini fan, so that says something.

I like that the show has made a consistent effort to acknowledge racism and sexism as they time travel. Let this be a lesson to shows that use it as an excuse to just cast everybody white and male, or to gloss over the complications. The way they not only acknowledge obstacles, but also feature people living in the past who managed to get past them, makes the show much better-- it's not pity porn, it's not depressing, they manage to showcase people in the past as smart, interesting, accomplished, and dignified, not just degraded, helpless, victims. It's such a relief to see things portrayed in a way that tries not to whitewash or stereotype. I know it's not perfect, but it's clear they're trying, which is more than can be said about a lot of other shows.

[bros402]

I am wondering if they will address the impact of the previous episode during the next episode... because killing Cornwallis would have a massive impact on history.

[green]

On 1/11/2017 at 2:22 PM, methodwriter85 said:

Are we going to run into H.H. Holmes, or is that just a tad too dark for the show?

Excellent call.

3 hours ago, ketose said:

I was a little bored at times with the episode. I did enjoy how bad ass they made Houdini. He did something Wyatt couldn't, catch Flynn. They should have scooped him up for the team.   ...

 

Yeah and left that loser Wyatt behind.  I'd much rather follow the adventures of Harry, Rufus and Lucy any day.

 

2 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

I liked the Houdini and murder hotel stuff, but this episode desperately needed someone besides Lucy arguing with Flynn about the ramifications of killing Edison, Ford, and J. P. Morgan. You can't kill those people and not collapse most of modern American history especially technological, manufacturing, and engineering history. Edison still had like 300 patents that were approved after 1893 in the U.S.  ...

Look on the bright side.  Tesla would like have become THE inventor of the era and we probably would be far further advanced by now had he gotten the larger funding and backing he needed.  He was far more creative an inventor than Edison and was obviously right about AC over DC. 

We might have been far better off without Edison.  Especially when you consider some of those latter patents he got credit for were actually the fruit of his employees and not himself.  Get them out from under his control and shadow and you might have had a dozen budding Edisons each one with their own labs instead.

Edited January 17, 2017 by green

[methodwriter85]

It really would be cool if they DID get someone from the past to join the team. 

I keep feeling like the point of the show is that no matter what you do to wipe out Rittenhouse, something else will happen to get to the same end result. It's like Skynet.

From what I read, H.H. Holmes disposed of the bodies using incineration as well as skinning the bodies and selling the skeletons to academies. I'm now wondering if he ever did pull something like the show Holmes did- kidnap a group of people and put them all in a room, with him pretending to be another victim.

Edited January 17, 2017 by methodwriter85

[JackONeill]

Again (you, the viewer, count the times) Wyatt looks like a chump. As others have said, Houdini, with no military training, did so many things in such a short amount of time, that you have to wonder: is the point of Wyatt only to insure (or ensure????) that something is going to go wrong on each mission, including Flynn escaping, which is the ONLY reason Wyatt is on the team.

Frankly, it has gotten to be depressing, and it is detracting from my enjoyment of watching the show. I am now waiting for Wyatt to drop the ball somehow, so I pay more attention looking for that than anything else.

If I knew that this was only intended to be a one-season show, fine. Something has to allow Flynn to keep going. And it happens to be Wyatt, I guess. But if this series is to last into more seasons, they need to find a better way, and quit making Wyatt the chump.

And if this it to last into additional seasons, which I do hope for, they need to find another Big Bad. Otherwise, for reasons cited above, it becomes too much like Wile E Coyote chasing the never-catchable Roadrunner. And it's not as funny. (Well, sometimes there are a few good lines. Still...)

Oh, and Wyatt....Comb your damn hair, boy!

[Bort]

5 hours ago, possibilities said:

I like that the show has made a consistent effort to acknowledge racism and sexism as they time travel. Let this be a lesson to shows that use it as an excuse to just cast everybody white and male, or to gloss over the complications. The way they not only acknowledge obstacles, but also feature people living in the past who managed to get past them, makes the show much better-- it's not pity porn, it's not depressing, they manage to showcase people in the past as smart, interesting, accomplished, and dignified, not just degraded, helpless, victims. It's such a relief to see things portrayed in a way that tries not to whitewash or stereotype. I know it's not perfect, but it's clear they're trying, which is more than can be said about a lot of other shows.

I also like that they make it humorous. Rufus saying he also went to MIT, only to have Sophia Hayden declare, "Oh, you must be Robert Robinson Taylor!" Whoops. And then the followup, Rufus: "No, I was the OTHER black guy." Sophia: "There were two?"

Sadly, according to Wikipedia, Sophia Hayden couldn't ever get a job as an architect on account of being a woman and ended up being a teacher.

[BooBear]

25 minutes ago, JackONeill said:

Again (you, the viewer, count the times) Wyatt looks like a chump. As others have said, Houdini, with no military training, did so many things in such a short amount of time, that you have to wonder: is the point of Wyatt only to insure (or ensure????) that something is going to go wrong on each mission, including Flynn escaping, which is the ONLY reason Wyatt is on the team.

Aside from the zero consequences to last week, this was the most annoying part. Wyatt didn't particularly act like a seasoned military man here who I thought would have been more calm and had more ideas as to how to get out. And I guess he never saw "SAW" as anyone who has seen the movies knows that the best part is for the killer to see their fear.   I was suspicious of George from the start.

Houdini was amazing and it honestly MIGHT be a good idea that they take someone from history to help them with things. They don't have to tell them what it is about.

I did like that they went dark and had more than two plots going on at the same time. I also liked that Lucy sort of saved her self by being smart. Wonder what Garcia is up to.

[dubbel zout]

Just because Wyatt now knows the name of the person who killed his wife doesn't mean she won't still die. Look at Lucy's sister. Maybe his wife dies crossing the street before they even meet. The show is terrible at addressing the butterfly effect. I know some of it isn't history changing, but there will be more unintended consequences. The show could even have some fun with it were it so inclined.

I don't care if things don't make sense, but there has to be better internal logic than the show has.

Malcolm Barrett is still being shamefully wasted. Rufus is my favorite character. 

Edited January 17, 2017 by dubbel zout
grammar

[vibeology]

I am also disappointed that we didn't get a big change in history as a result of the last episode. I don't expect it every week but considering what all went on with Rittenhouse, Cornwallis etc. some sign that something had changed I think was necessary. You can't be messing about with history and never see any impacts aside from Lucy's sister who we didn't know well enough to care about in the first place.

I loved Harry Houdini. Can't we keep him? He was just so likeable and smart and he managed to handcuff Flynn! I like that we saw that his "magic" was really just focus and the ability to look at problems in a different way than most. As for Holmes, he was about as horrifying as I would have expected. I was disappointed that Wyatt, Rufus and later Lucy weren't a little more genre savvy. You don't split up in a murder house! People at the time didn't know what a serial killer was but our team is from a time when serial killers are weekly tv entertainment. I needed them to be smarter about that.

[Raja]

9 hours ago, benteen said:

Yeah, this is a big problem when it comes to Flynn's character.  The changes he's trying to make are massive and would have catastrophic consequences that would most likely effect people all the down to Flynn.  Flynn probably should have been wiped out of existence when he saved his mother's first child because her life absolutely would have changed 100%.  His strategy is inane and he's probably ensuring his wife was never born with the actions he is taking.

Agreed.  I expected Wyatt to kill him the second he learned that Holmes was going to lie to the police after turning himself in.  I don't think you needed to justify the shooting by having Holmes make a move on him at the last second.  Weak.

It was like Lucas refilming so Han Solo didn't shoot first. It is why it was such a big deal on Magnum PI when Magnum and Ric murdered Ivan the Soviet spy. TV always gives their hero characters an out.

[benteen]

21 minutes ago, Raja said:

It was like Lucas refilming so Han Solo didn't shoot first. It is why it was such a big deal on Magnum PI when Magnum and Ric murdered Ivan the Soviet spy. TV always gives their hero characters an out.

Yes!  I was thinking of the Magnum PI episode especially.

[Boofish]

Once again it was said that you can't go back to a time where you existed yet there was Richard the day of the moon landing. There is no way that Richard didn't exist in 1969. 

[JackONeill]

That Magnum episode will stand the test of time as far as taking the not-usual-by-TV-standards approach. I think a lot of that came from the fact that Magnum was such a hit, and was such a known, and loved, quantity. TPTB of Timeless may have wanted to go that route, but given it's tenuous position in the ratings maybe they were afraid of offending some viewers, and maybe it would only take a few to overturn the apple cart.

Having said that, though, I remember on NCIS, Gibbs went after the big-baddy Harper Dearing. Everybody wanted him dead. But instead of just killing him -- which he knew he was going to do, no matter what -- Gibbs just waited for Dearing to make a move for his gun. And as we know (at least until recently, maybe) NCIS is the BIGGEST show out there and should be able to do whatever they want (well, within reason. I don't want to see McGee butt-ass naked.)

[Primetimer]

And other questions sparked by its rumored untimely demise.

View the full article

[saber5055]

Houdini ... best part of this episode. I like people who can do things, and then do them. *coughWyattcough* If no one knew what a serial killer is back then, no one would know what a black man is, either. Negro would have been the right word, even if it isn't correct now. Rufus declaring he is the only one who can drive the eyeball reinforces why they need to cross train. Lucy got captured once. What happens if Rufus gets captured/killed? I did like Lucy's expression when she saw Flynn's time machine. It's nicer and prettier! I also like her psychic cover. Nicely done.

[Bort]

10 minutes ago, saber5055 said:

If no one knew what a serial killer is back then, no one would know what a black man is, either.

Yeah, that made me eyeroll. Sure, "serial killer" may not be terminology that people in that time period were familiar with, but you'd think they'd be able to figure out what it meant based on the basic definitions of the words "serial" and "killer." Frankly, any term with the word "killer" in it would get an "oh shit" from me. 

[Miles]

Well that was a parade of dumb. I don't expect much from this show, but woof.

Flynn, if you want to actually erradicate somebody, his line and his evil orginisation, don't go back to after he has been killed and his son has gone into hiding. Go back to when he was a baby. Kill him in his crib. That way he will never have a son or found his evil orginisation.

People are generally bad at thinking in 4D on this show. "The lifeboat will take another 4 hours to charge" everbody makes a "oh no!"-face. But what the hell does it matter? You have a time machine! You can go to the exact moment themothership arrives.

How can a room with a single layer of brick, part of which are degrading cement, be airtight? If we actually believe it's airtight, why would a serial killer lock himself in there with his vicitms? Seems like the air was close to running out. He didn't even seem to have weapons on him. What was his end goal here?

The impossible choice/character test Flynn gave Wyatt at the end is also dumb. Just look up when the guy who murdered you wife was born, calculate back to when he was concieved, then inconvinience his mother for a month. Done. Nobody has to die. (if that is already in a time where you are alive, do the same with one of his grandmothers)

Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb.

10 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

But if I've learned anything from time-traveling shows, that alone will cause something horrible like World War III, an astroid to hit Earth, or a Star Wars film directed by Michael Bay.

Eh, can't be worse than the prequels.

Edited January 17, 2017 by Miles

[henripootel]

44 minutes ago, Miles said:

People are generally bad at thinking in 4D on this show. "The lifeboat will take another 4 hours to charge" everbody makes a "oh no!"-face. But what the hell does it matter? You have a time machine! You can go to the exact moment themothership arrives.

This is the one that rankles me because it's always a plot point.  'We have to go now, before he gets away!'  No you don't - time machine.  Take a while to get some sleep, or properly equip, or research the time period, or find someone better at fighting.  Take a year to prep, you'll still get there exactly on time. 

48 minutes ago, Miles said:

How can a room with a single layer of brick, part of which are degrading cement, be airtight? If we actually believe it's airtight, why would a serial killer lock himself in there with his vicitms? Seems like the air was close to running out. He didn't even seem to have weapons on him. What was his end goal here?

Holmes liked to watch his victims struggle and die, but no, didn't want to struggle and die himself so he built windows.  Was kinda dumb for him to be in there but I actually guessed that guy was he, then dismissed it because ... dumb.  But it was him, so dumb dumb dumb.  

[basiltherat]

I am SO GLAD that Show has dropped Lucy's insistence that they not change history, 'cuz people would have a real problem with her letting Holmes go to murder more people so that the timeline of history not be changed.  Sorry, Honest Abe, you still get to die.

I'm from Chicago but I knew really very little about Holmes because we've had Gacy and Speck quite recently.  Nice to know more about both the  big (Houdini) and the small (lady architect) players in history.

Rufus continues to be the best thing on this show.  I hope it is he who saves the day.   Lucy I could do without, and WhyWyatt is a non-factor.

[Shanna Marie]

Well, we now know Rufus and Wyatt hadn't read Devil in the White City. Insert macro about Wyatt needing to shave (or else have a real, full-on beard) so he wouldn't be considered a bum in the time period they're visiting, but at least the men were wearing hats. This may have been the best job they've done with Lucy that wasn't 20th century. Her 20th century looks have all been wonderful, but they fail utterly when going any earlier. Maybe this was because Flynn was the one who prepped her.

Normally I defend Wyatt, but they just really don't want to let him be all that competent, do they? I would have thought Special Forces had training for what to do when being gassed, like getting low to the ground if the gas is coming in from above, breaking out a window, etc. Why shoot the door instead of the window? If they're going to have a character who's there for the skills, let him do something every so often, and this would have been a good occasion, given that he wasn't up against Flynn and therefore would have been allowed to win. I'm not sure I count shooting Holmes since that was an easy, close-range shot. He wouldn't have needed to be Special Forces for that.

That said, I really enjoyed the episode, maybe because I've read a lot about those events and that time period. Houdini was a blast, and it's always fun watching Lucy fangirl and use her history skills, like playing psychic with someone she knew was a spiritualist.

[Arynm]

1 hour ago, henripootel said:

This is the one that rankles me because it's always a plot point.  'We have to go now, before he gets away!'  No you don't - time machine.  Take a while to get some sleep, or properly equip, or research the time period, or find someone better at fighting.  Take a year to prep, you'll still get there exactly on time. 

I thought they had said in a previous episode that if they don't go as soon as possible after Flynn gets there, he could change time around them and they wouldn't be able to go, because they wouldn't ever remember they had to go. They have to go fast.

I liked this episode but Wyatt is fast becoming useless. He is still pretty so he has that going for him. Love Rufus, he is the best thing going for the show right now followed by Lucy. I liked her using her knowledge to get into HH Holmes head. When I saw it was the Chicago Worlds Fair I was hoping they would bring him into it, how could they ignore the worlds first serial killer.

I really like how they highlight women in history that I would otherwise not have ever heard of. There are many and it's a nice touch.

[iMonrey]

Quote

And if this it to last into additional seasons, which I do hope for, they need to find another Big Bad. Otherwise, for reasons cited above, it becomes too much like Wile E Coyote chasing the never-catchable Roadrunner.

I was really hoping that the last episode with Washington and Benedict Arnold was going to be a game changer but . . . nope. We're right back at square one. Nothing has changed, it's "chase Flynn, foil Flynn, come back home, lather, rinse, repeat." They really, really needed to have Wyatt and Rufus return to a present day that was radically different in some way. 

If they never change anything they should have established, from the start, that it's almost impossible to change history, instead of starting the show with this butterfly effect of Lucy's sister never existing. I mean, they didn't even change history that much in the pilot and yet it altered Lucy's reality in a significant way. But if they kill three prominent historical figures and nothing of note has changed, whatsoever? Ridiculous!

If all this show aspires to be is a vehicle for the characters to dress up in period costumes and meet famous historical figures, it might as well be Mr. Peabody and the Wayback Machine. Let's face it, Sherman > Wyatt. The Rittenhouse thing just isn't working. It isn't going anywhere, at any rate.

Quote

 "The lifeboat will take another 4 hours to charge" everbody makes a "oh no!"-face. But what the hell does it matter? You have a time machine! You can go to the exact moment the mothership arrives.

I suppose it's possible the "life boat" is tethered to the mother ship in such a way that they are operating within the same time cycle, so if the mothership arrives at noon in 1893 and the lifeboat leaves the present day four hours later it's going to arrive four hours later in 1893 than the mothership does. That said, once again the show has done a crap job of explaining the mechanics of how all this works, just as they have been inconsistent with the idea that you can't go back to a time where you already exist, which Flynn reiterated in this episode, despite the fact that Anthony went back to 1960s Las Vegas when he was most assuredly already alive.

I have to think if the writing was just 25% more ambitious the ratings would be better. 

[withanaich]

Quote

Congratulations Flynn! You saved your family because your wife was never born. Her father's family never moved from Oklahoma to Michigan to work at the Ford factory. Brilliant plan dipshit!

I think that's the main thing that's taking me out of the moment watching this show. Not stupid Wyatt and his stupid face scruff, not "you can't go back to the same time blah blah," this. I assume we're not supposed to read Flynn as stupid, and yet we're supposed to buy that it hasn't occurred to him that his "brilliant" plan is dumb as hell? It's as stupid and infuriating as Lucy demanding that the government magically wave her sister back into existence. How? How? HOW?

The smart thing would have been for Flynn to go back and stop himself from being conceived, which would mean his wife would still (probably) exist but he wouldn't be around to get her killed. But no, he's hopping all over history instead, doing any number of things that mean she never gets born, or gets killed before they ever meet (and thus their kid doesn't get born). I don't get it. And if they're positing that no matter what, history "resets" itself then A) they need to SAY THAT NOTHING CHANGED, especially after the events of the previous episode and B) that means there's no point in the gang trying to stop Flynn, since the timeline is in no real danger anyway. I like you, show, but you can't have it both ways.

Quote

I liked this episode but Wyatt is fast becoming useless.

Haha, "becoming." I think him shooting Holmes was about the first time I actually cheered him on. Usually I'm thinking, "Shut up, Wyatt." Someone thinks they're about to die and you start whining about your dead wife to "comfort" them? Seriously, just shut up. He was even stupid about poking a hole in the brick; instead of making it big enough to get some more air into the chamber, he tried to yell for help through a hole the size of a safety pin. Idiot.

Rufus, as always, is awesome, although I would like to see more acknowledgement of him being out of place as a black man (like we did in earlier episodes). The woman from MIT being surprised that there were two black alumni was a nice touch, but everyone else is a little too casual. 

[henripootel]

20 minutes ago, Arynm said:

I thought they had said in a previous episode that if they don't go as soon as possible after Flynn gets there, he could change time around them and they wouldn't be able to go, because they wouldn't ever remember they had to go. They have to go fast.

If that's the rule, they can't possibly go fast enough.  The timeline would change the instant Flynn went back, long before they could detect Flynn in the past or whatever.  The only way to save this is to presume that the timeline needs a few minutes to 'shake out' or reconfigure, but that's ridiculous too.  Anything Flynn did this week, for example, happened over 100 years ago, plenty of time for the timeline to straighten.  Just because they say they have to 'leave right away' doesn't mean this makes a lick of sense.  

[dubbel zout]

8 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

If all this show aspires to be is a vehicle for the characters to dress up in period costumes and meet famous historical figures, it might as well be Mr. Peabody and the Wayback Machine. Let's face it, Sherman > Wyatt. The Rittenhouse thing just isn't working. It isn't going anywhere, at any rate.

I was thinking about this last night, too. I get they need some sort of overall reason to be jumping back and forth, but I think the RIttenhouse thing was a mistake. Or Rittenhouse as it's written is a mistake. The organization needs to threaten everybody in the present in a real way for it to have any bite, IMO. Right now it's all threats. Prove you're dastardly!

20 minutes ago, withanaich said:

Rufus, as always, is awesome, although I would like to see more acknowledgement of him being out of place as a black man (like we did in earlier episodes). The woman from MIT being surprised that there were two black alumni was a nice touch, but everyone else is a little too casual.

When Lucy hugged him so warmly, I expected something.

[HunterHunted]

18 minutes ago, withanaich said:

I think that's the main thing that's taking me out of the moment watching this show. Not stupid Wyatt and his stupid face scruff, not "you can't go back to the same time blah blah," this. I assume we're not supposed to read Flynn as stupid, and yet we're supposed to buy that it hasn't occurred to him that his "brilliant" plan is dumb as hell? It's as stupid and infuriating as Lucy demanding that the government magically wave her sister back into existence. How? How? HOW?

The smart thing would have been for Flynn to go back and stop himself from being conceived, which would mean his wife would still (probably) exist but he wouldn't be around to get her killed. But no, he's hopping all over history instead, doing any number of things that mean she never gets born, or gets killed before they ever meet (and thus their kid doesn't get born). I don't get it. And if they're positing that no matter what, history "resets" itself then A) they need to SAY THAT NOTHING CHANGED, especially after the events of the previous episode and B) that means there's no point in the gang trying to stop Flynn, since the timeline is in no real danger anyway. I like you, show, but you can't have it both ways.

What Flynn really needs is a spy within Rittenhouse. Or a network of spies. The black female doctor who was hiding with the Black Panthers demonstrates that there are dissatisfied members of Rittenhouse and could be turned to Flynn's side.

Last night's episode highlighted that there is a fair amount of guess work with team good guy trying to figure out what Flynn's target is. It wouldn't take much work for Flynn to pass along to his network of spies dates and locations for dead drops that also correspond to important historical events. While team good guy is running around trying to thwart what they think is Flynn's plan, he's picking up information about Rittenhouse schemes that he can stop.

[JackONeill]

14 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

What Flynn really needs is a spy within Rittenhouse. Or a network of spies. The black female doctor who was hiding with the Black Panthers demonstrates that there are dissatisfied members of Rittenhouse and could be turned to Flynn's side.

Last night's episode highlighted that there is a fair amount of guess work with team good guy trying to figure out what Flynn's target is. It wouldn't take much work for Flynn to pass along to his network of spies dates and locations for dead drops that also correspond to important historical events. While team good guy is running around trying to thwart what they think is Flynn's plan, he's picking up information about Rittenhouse schemes that he can stop.

But should we be rooting for Flynn (and Team Bad Guy)? And I think this has been another problem with this show, and it was admittedly more evident at the beginning. The actor who plays Flynn is colorful and won over many viewers through sheer charisma (IMO). But then he started killing innocent people in cold blood. A lot of people were left going, "WHAT?" And why?

But then, on the other hand, we have Team Good Guy and, while cute in their own way, they are largely (thoroughly?) inept. Plus, there are these vague and strange threats against Rufus, etc. I mean, it's been tough trying to figure out who's the guy vs. bad guy and, more importantly, WHY. I mean what is the exact mission???!!!!???? And why????!!!!!????

So far, though being more adept than the supposed heroes of this show, what chaos has Flynn caused? I say let them all go after one another and maybe a hundred years from now we'll find out who's the best at whatever in the world they're trying to do. But right now, all I see is a hole lot of tail-chasing.

And that's it. One team will be called Team Tom. The other Team Jerry. (Sadly, I like the concept of this show. Alas...)

[Dowel Jones]

Every time they mentioned the time-inappropriate term serial killer, I half expected the locals to ask "How do you go about killing cereal?"

Firing a pistol or a rifle in a crowded hotel will attract attention.  Gunshots are loud.  Why didn't anyone react?  I can see Flynn getting away because he's carrying a rifle with him and no one will mess with him, but Wyatt & Co.?  No way.

Ford Motor Co. was one of the sponsors of the show.  I wonder if they knew that Henry was going to be portrayed as a Rittenhouse.

I thought the architect was going to be Julia Morgan, of Hearst Castle fame, but after research, she was just a bit later.  Not much, though.

It's been fun, folks, but when is this show going to get some traction?  Somebody in the writers room needs to do something to get the plot off the ground.  Next, they're going to the Wild West.  Maybe someday they'll go all the way back to Biblical times, 'cause you know that Pilate was an ancestor of the original Rittenhouse.  They'll kill him, and Jesus won't be crucified, and now we'll get some historical change, by golly.

[vibeology]

31 minutes ago, JackONeill said:

But should we be rooting for Flynn (and Team Bad Guy)? And I think this has been another problem with this show, and it was admittedly more evident at the beginning. The actor who plays Flynn is colorful and won over many viewers through sheer charisma (IMO). But then he started killing innocent people in cold blood. A lot of people were left going, "WHAT?" And why?

Pretty much this. I don't mind that Flynn is evil and it's pretty clear that murder makes him evil, but he's also Goran Visnjic and I will always love him. So it's not that I don't mind that he's evil or even that I'm cheering him on because he's evil, but I do enjoy his presence and want to see more of Flynn which means I don't want to see Wyatt kill him or the gang catch him. I think that's good and bad. Obviously it bothers me less that Wyatt hasn't been able to kill Flynn so that's good but I'm also not entirely rooting for the heroes to succeed and that's not so good.

I wish they hadn't gone the killing poor random people route because then there'd be a chance that Flynn could start to work with the team at least a little but because he's a murderer I would have a huge problem with that. (And if the only person he had killed had been Rittenhouse, I would have been okay with it considering who Rittenhouse is, but he's killing people like the nice guy from NASA all the time and that's not okay.)

[blackwing]

I enjoyed this episode.  Houdini was entertaining, and I liked the bits with HH Holmes and the World's Fair Hotel.  Would have been cool to have seen some of these trap doors and sliding chutes but oh well.  I don't really understand why HH Holmes disguised himself as "George" and locked himself in with the rest.  He was breathing the same air, and it's not like in 1893 he would have pulled out his own personal oxygen tank so he could survive as the others died.  How was he going to get out?  Was his assistant supposed to come open the door at a set time?  Then he could laugh at the others and lock them back in?

I don't really buy that Lucy knew so much about HH Holmes (his real name, his family, etc) but wouldn't recognise him as "George".  I get that he's not a major figure of history, but she seems to have read enough about him that she should have seen his picture before.  As an analogy, I've never met Chester A. Arthur (to me, one of the "obscure" presidents), but I've seen his picture many times, and if I were to go back in time, I would think I would recognise him.  Especially if I was a History professor.

14 hours ago, henripootel said:

As always, loved the CGI work, the glimpses we saw of the Chicago World's Columbian Exposition were pretty cool.

Considering that it was CGI, I was disappointed.  They didn't really capture the grandeur and the opulence of it IMO.  I've read "Devil in the White City" and then went and scoured the internet for pictures on what it looked like.  If you've ever been to Chicago and dined at the famous Berghoff restaurant, there's a mural there that really depicts the splendor.  There's the Grand Court, this central lake surrounded by white buildings and all sorts of gondolas carrying people on it.  I thought it was nice that the show had the Ferris wheel and the domed Administration building and a few other buildings in the background, but I really wanted the team to be walking through the actual exhibition.  Would have loved to have seen the show's recreation of the various pavilions.  Instead, all we got was a hotel that could have been anywhere, and a series of red and yellow circus tents that had all the look and atmosphere of the Storybook Circus section of Fantasyland at the Magic Kingdom in Disney World.

[iMonrey]

Quote

 I assume we're not supposed to read Flynn as stupid, and yet we're supposed to buy that it hasn't occurred to him that his "brilliant" plan is dumb as hell? It's as stupid and infuriating as Lucy demanding that the government magically wave her sister back into existence. How? How? HOW?

The previous episode with Benedict Arnold could have been a real turning point in this story, but instead they just hit the re-set button with Flynn saying "Well since I can't take out the original Rittenhouse I guess I'll have to take them out one at a time," which is what he's been doing since the pilot. Reset. I mean, how many years do the writers think they can keep cycling through the same formula? Five years from now will Lucy, Wyatt and Rufus still be chasing Flynn into the past, foiling his plans, returning home and finding they've changed nothing? It's only been 11 episodes and I'm already bored with it. 

Also, we know Lucy & Co. are getting their period costumes from a giant wardrobe compiled by Mason Industries and/or the NSA but where are Flynn and his never ending supply of goons getting all their period costumes and period appropriate money from? Somehow Flynn managed to find Lucy a period appropriate 1890s dress that fit her perfectly as well as garb for himself and at least one henchman. Is his headquarters located next to the largest costume shop in the country? Does he have his own personal seamstress on hand?

[tennisgurl]

Oh, this episode had me in two minds, so hard. I really love this time period, and I really love the worlds fair this showed (yes, Devil in the White City is one of my favorite books), and they skimmed through some of it nicely. I have always had a macabre interest in HH Holmes and his murder hotel, so I was darkly thrilled to see him as the episodes villain of the week. And Harry Houdini was ridiculously charming and likable. And actually competent! In general, I really enjoy the historical characters the gang runs into, and the actors do a consistently good job at making me care about them despite only knowing them for an episode. And, like others have said, I enjoy that they give a spotlight to people who have done really awesome thing but arent as famous as they should be, like Katherine Johnson (although she has an awesome movie now!), Captain Frank Hamer from the Bonnie and Clyde episode, and here we had Sophia, the first female architect. And Rufus is awesome, and Lucy didnt just get stuck being a damsel (even though she did get kinapped twice in a row), she got to use her history knowledge. 

Sadly, this leads to my issues. This episode was horribly held back by the fact that Flynn and Rittenhouse is a huge pain and generally sucks the life out of all the fun. Flynn gets some good lines and the actor is charismatic, but his plan is SO STUPID! I mean, whats your plan here, Mr. Brilliant Strategist? Just run around history, screwing with random events and killing tons of people, and just hoping that means Rittenhouse goes away? As several others have already commented, he has probably already made it so that his wife was never born or something, and its sheer luck that he himself has never been written out of existence. For someone built up as this super smart uber badass, he kind of...sucks. Speaking of sucking, its pretty sad that the guest characters are consistently more entertaining and competent than Our Heroes. Its not that I dont like the main characters and they all have their moments, but the fact that they haven't been able to actually stop this one asshole, who we have already seen is a pretty crappy super villain, does not speak much for them. Especially Wyatt, who is apparently a special forces badass, but some across more as just some guy who is pays paintball on the weekends or something. Houdini managed to foil Flynn and capture him in like five minutes! And this guy is a magician, not a soldier! What they apparently need to do is gather together a rag tag bunch of misfits throughout history (Houdini, Katherine Johnson, Ian Flemming, Bonnie Parker, etc.) and have THEM hunt down Flynn. They would probably catch him in twenty minutes and be done in time for dinner at the Worlds Fair. 

How did no one figure out that "George" was sketchy? I am hardly a historian, but even I recognized the guy and his stupid mustache. Plus, I have seen a horror movie in my life. Oy. And, Wyatt, just shoot him. I normally dont approve of excessive killing in my good guys, but its HH Holmes for crying out loud! He kills children! Not a nice guy!

My other big issue with Flynn is, he is always going on about how evil Rittenhouse is, and the show is building them up as some giant evil conspiracy that is the true Big Bad of the show, but...we never see that. We see their founder was a creepy racist asshole, like lots of people were back then, and we see some guy in a suit being vaugly threatening to Rufus, and...thats about it. Flynn, on the other hand, we have seen murdering innocent people, causing time changes that will certainly cause destruction and pain for countless innocents who have nothing to do with Rittenhouse, and generally gallivanting around history being a murderous terrorist asshole who babbles on about how Rittenhouse is the real bad guy. If Rittenhouse is so evil, SHOW DONT TELL! Show them actually doing something evil, and maybe I can buy into them as some American Illuminati that needs to be destroyed. Because, otherwise, Flynns attempts at having the moral high ground are pretty damn shallow, and all this is leading to nowhere. 

*Sigh* I dont mean to sound like a Debbie Downer. I do enjoy this show and I feel like it has so much potential, I just want it to live up to all that promise. There is a great show here, just trying to get out. 

[LoneHaranguer]

2 minutes ago, blackwing said:

 I don't really understand why HH Holmes disguised himself as "George" and locked himself in with the rest.  He was breathing the same air, and it's not like in 1893 he would have pulled out his own personal oxygen tank so he could survive as the others died.  How was he going to get out?  Was his assistant supposed to come open the door at a set time?  Then he could laugh at the others and lock them back in?

I don't think he'd trust his assistant. It'd make more sense to wait until the air got thin enough for the lights to go out and escape in the darkness using a secret door trigger. Seems like that should have happened well before Wyatt made the hole in the wall. One light already went out; the others should have quickly followed. And Wyatt cut through a brick, which is a lot tougher and time consuming than cutting through mortar, which is what I presumed he'd do.