S01.E10: The Capture of Benedict Arnold

[NaughtyKitty]

I don't understand why Flynn went through so much effort to get the key from Bonnie and Clyde when all he needed to do was break the clock (or even just pry it open) to get the note out.  I mean...I like that we got a Bonnie and Clyde episode but the extra work travelling thru time just seemed unnecessary to me.

[iMonrey]

Quote

In that case, wouldn't the lifeboat disappear entirely leaving them stranded in 1780?  Or do the machines exist in a bubble outside the normal stream of time?  It's one of those lovely time-travel conundrums that you have to make a decision about.

The time machine is from a different timeline, so it wouldn't simply disappear. If they alter history and create a new timeline it doesn't affect any of them, because they're from the original timeline. Whether the original timeline is destroyed or still exists in a parallel universe I don't know, because the show hasn't addressed that. They could potentially return to a 2016 where a time machine was never built by Mason Industries but their time machine still exists, because it's from another timeline where it was built.

[Driad]

I too enjoyed seeing Armin Shimerman. Hoping they go back to an earlier time so he can play Rittenhouse again.

[tljgator]

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The other thing that bothered me was the American accent for Washington and Arnold.

Glad it wasn't just me, Haleth -- that drove me nuts for some reason. 

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Rittenhouse Finally Makes It To Timeless

But he suddenly seems less important than Agent Christopher.

[Dowel Jones]

Reading up on Cornwallis in Widipedia, it seems that, after arriving in England on the same ship as Benedict Arnold, he went on to a tour of duty in India, and then back to Ireland, where he suppressed the Irish Rebellion of 1798 and created The Act of Union of Ireland and England (sorry if I didn't get the title exactly correct).  Yeah, things might be just a bit different now if he had been killed in America.

[LadyArcadia]

On 12/13/2016 at 11:49 AM, CooperTV said:

The 1700s' clothes on everyone including people that are actually from the 1700s were ridiculous. I couldn't deal with Benedict Arnold's wife lack of cap but when I saw Lucy's almost post-typhoid hair and complete lack of any hat, I thought to myself, "yeah, whatever, I'm done with your historically inaccurate fashions, show".

(But seriously, where are all the hats?!)?

This.  Seriously, a woman not wearing a hat back in those days was down right scandalous!  Add to that it was down and out of control, she may as well have a "prostitute" label on her.  No way she'd be speaking to such high-ranking men, in public.  Terrible.

Edited December 14, 2016 by LadyArcadia

[Driad]

On December 13, 2016 at 9:08 AM, DearEvette said:

given how invisible slaves, POC and servants seem to be in all points in history they would have made a fabulous spy network

Any recommendations for reading on this theme? Fiction or not, long or short.

[Hanahope]

I don't understand why Flynn even needed Lucy, et al's help.  Why not use his own men?  And what did happen to Flynn's "man who had a gun on Washington"?

So I guess Lucy would save child Hitler too, huh?

[Hanahope]

19 hours ago, Netfoot said:

19 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

In other words, France sided with the colonists not out of any real sympathy for their cause but more as a way to give Britain the middle finger.

True, but the last time France and her middle finger were anything but a laughing-stock to the British, was 1066.  

Well, to be fair, France did finally prevail in the Hundred Years War, though part of that was because England began to squabble over some roses.

[shapeshifter]

17 hours ago, Ariah said:

...The things that make me go 'hmmmm': couldn't Lucy just drop like a dead lump to the ground and force Flynn into dragging her / or carrying her / instead of trotting reluctantly in his wake? I mean yes, there was a risk he would shoot her, but on the other hand, he's still surprisingly non-aggressive towards her. It could work.

Wyatt needs to teach the team some basic self-defense. Kick to the groin? Something, anything!...

Seriously. "Bad direction" is what I said to myself. I doubt Lucy was that committed to the part of cowed 16 18th century female.

Edited December 15, 2016 by shapeshifter
correcting dislexic numbering

[Lugal]

This was a good episode.  I like we're finally diving into the Rittenhouse/Illuminati story.  I liked the three-sided conflict of Flynn/Rittenhouse/Our Heroes.  Of course killing Benedict Arnold and Cornwallis is going to have major consequences, especially in Ireland and India.  Unless they reveal that History is self-correcting to a degree.

On 12/13/2016 at 4:50 AM, Writing Wrongs said:

Is the guy running things in the present, Lucy's dad, a Rittenhouse descendant? If they killed the kid, wouldn't Lucy be erased?

Possibly, assuming Lucy is not descended from some other bloodline.  But that was 8 to 10 generations back, and in theory it's possible that after 10 generations you may not actually have any DNA in you from any given ancestor that far back.

21 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

That would never have happened.  The whole reason that France sided with the revolutionaries in the first place was that France saw it as an irresistible opportunity for payback to the British, who had deprived France of nearly every North American holding she had had during the French and Indian War (or, as it was known in the European theater of that war, the Seven Years' War).  In other words, France sided with the colonists not out of any real sympathy for their cause but more as a way to give Britain the middle finger.  It would make no sense for the French to switch sides and support a centuries-old enemy that had completely screwed them over time and time again, most recently less than 30 years earlier.

Ironically, it was Benedict Arnold's victory at Saratoga that convinced the French that they could give the British that middle finger.

[dargosmydaddy]

8 hours ago, tljgator said:

Quote

he other thing that bothered me was the American accent for Washington and Arnold.

Glad it wasn't just me, Haleth -- that drove me nuts for some reason. 

Me three. I swear in one of the scenes Wyatt of all people seemed to be attempting to fake a British-esque accent, yet Arnold (who I think they were talking to at the time) sounded completely American.

[KaveDweller]

22 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

"You two look for Flynn, I'll look for the boy!" Umm... if Flynn's also looking for the boy, then couldn't you all just stay together and do both? lol

That part was really stupid. 

22 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

In that case, wouldn't the lifeboat disappear entirely leaving them stranded in 1780?  Or do the machines exist in a bubble outside the normal stream of time?  It's one of those lovely time-travel conundrums that you have to make a decision about.

I think the time machine exists in a bubble. Things in the machine don't change (Lucy's locket with a picture of her sister and now Agent Christopher's USB drive. Which suggests the time machine itself wouldn't disappear. The bigger question is are there two of everyone.

The Quantum Leap references makes me think.....on that show he could only travel within his own lifetime. It's sort of the opposite of what they've stated here (well, sort of stated vaguely). 

Edited December 15, 2016 by KaveDweller

[sarthaz]

This show doesn't make a lick of sense or stand up to any logical scrutiny, but for some reason, I'm enjoying it.

[ChromaKelly]

They go to the revolution and no Alexander Hamilton? Really?
This was fun but I cosign with the Lucy's hair comments and the accents, and no one ever comments on Our Gang's speech ether.

[legaleagle53]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Seriously. "Bad direction" is what I said to myself. I doubt Lucy was that committed to the part of cowed 16th century female.

Eighteenth Century.  They haven't ever been to the 16th Century.

[dr pepper]

On 12/13/2016 at 2:38 PM, henripootel said:

 

Ha - that'd be fun.  And it'd totally save BA's rep, as he'd just gotten around to betraying his country.

 

Strictly speaking, Benedict Arnold did not betray his country. He started to, but reconsidered. Now George Washington-- there's a man who betrayed his country.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, legaleagle53 said:

Eighteenth Century.  They haven't ever been to the 16th Century.

Whoops. I thought that looked wrong! Fixed it. Thanks.

[ketose]

I mentioned on the Turn forum that Benedict Arnold had a positive impact near where I live, at least pre-turncoat. But that happened before Flynn killed him.

So, one problem with Timeless is that it keeps creating bigger and bigger waves in the continuum and yet the same people are around, including the Rittenhouse guy. Logic would seem to dictate that the people we're supposed to care about are in danger of being altered. On the other hand, the show itself seems to save major changes for special episodes.

I kind of feel like there are no stakes in this, except for Lucy who "remembers" all the correct history. Apparently, she's going to go crazy at some point and write an instruction book for Flynn, which also indicates he's going to fail for years.

[JasmineFlower]

Even though I enjoyed the episode on it's face, the Lucy character is bothering me more and more. Her shaky, quivery, nervousness is starting to irk. She seems to be holding onto this no one has to die idea ignoring that people have already died. Her not being able to fake things a bit more is making it hard to think this will work in the long run. She's also getting mighty fit to tied when she's seen as a "little woman", meanwhile seems to have barely a problem with the number of times Rufus has been banished to his role as a slave, the help, or some other marginalized position. I get her being up in arms, but Rufus seems to make the best of the situation and Lucy is feeling too entitled in her dealing with things. Kinda of like the while "I need my sister back" no matter what else needs to happen, but my world needs to be made right.

Along with that. I'm really thinking that the son should have been killed along with his dad and would have been if this was on HBO or Showtime. A hard decision that needed to be made, knowing that history has plenty of sons seeking vengeance for their fathers. And Lucy would have to know this given her command of history. But I'm guessing that's too dark for network TV.

Which brings me to yet another issue with Lucy's character along with the writing of this particular storyline. Rittenhouse. Now, I get that most people watching the show may not know this, but Lucy's character should have known that Rittenhouse was a person. I knew that Rittenhouse was going to be a person, because I live in Philadelphia, home to Rittenhouse Square, named after David Rittenhouse. I saw mentions in this thread of why can't someone use Wikipedia or Google, but let's not even go there. Let's say those don't exist. Rittenhouse Square is not a secret, unknown area, it's one of the biggest parts of Center City Philadelphia, the city that any historian worth their salt knows inside and out. And Lucy, who knew the escape route of the priests in WWII, proper salutations, details of the French and Indian War, and a million other little tidbits that are only found through exhaustive reading and research, doesn't know to think, oh wait, there's a Rittenhouse Square in Philadelphia, the city that holds the key to a ton of the history of the birth of this nation, wonder if there's a connection? Major fail for me. This wasn't a big reveal for me, it was expected and all that happened was it makes Lucy, and Flynn for that matter, seem amateurish in their history knowledge when you realize these aren't small, random names that shouldn't ring bells. And we know that's not who Flynn is. And the Lucy we've been presented with would know the Rittenhouse name. So, what's up with the writing of this storyline?

And while Rittenhouse isn't a Vanderbilt, his family was at least somewhat notable in history, because there are other places in the Philly area named Rittenhouse, and I know for damn sure I've passed a historical marker many times on Rittenhouse Street (in another section of the city, not downtown), and it's about his father or grandfather, who built the first paper mill in the country (before it was the US, so the colonies I guess).  So, anyone trying to pass it off as Rittenhouse is pretty obscure. It might be to many. It wouldn't be to a historian with Lucy's knowledge of early American history.

[bros402]

Anyone else think the Lucy character might be better as an anthropologist - then she'd be able to give the team a crash course on how to act in the time they have to go to - give her some historical knowledge, maybe she got a masters in American History or something

[JackONeill]

5 hours ago, bros402 said:

Anyone else think the Lucy character might be better as an anthropologist - then she'd be able to give the team a crash course on how to act in the time they have to go to - give her some historical knowledge, maybe she got a masters in American History or something

At the dinner at the start of this episode, didn't Lucy say something about being a history AND an anthropology expert? Although, I only remember history being discussed in past episodes. But, yes, anthropology would help. Maybe the writers are trying to retrofit things.

[sarthaz]

8 hours ago, ketose said:

I mentioned on the Turn forum that Benedict Arnold had a positive impact near where I live, at least pre-turncoat. But that happened before Flynn killed him.

So, one problem with Timeless is that it keeps creating bigger and bigger waves in the continuum and yet the same people are around, including the Rittenhouse guy. Logic would seem to dictate that the people we're supposed to care about are in danger of being altered. On the other hand, the show itself seems to save major changes for special episodes.

I kind of feel like there are no stakes in this, except for Lucy who "remembers" all the correct history. Apparently, she's going to go crazy at some point and write an instruction book for Flynn, which also indicates he's going to fail for years.

Yeah, this is my biggest problem with the show; although we all knew that going in, I guess.  Time travel is nearly impossible to write with any coherence.  The only way it really works is when you do closed loops like Babylon 5.

What's interesting here is that Eric Kripke is all about Free Will vs. Destiny.  That was his core theme in 5 years on Supernatural.  "You can't fight City Hall."  But he always wrote the protagonists as wanting to believe in Free Will, and he wanted the audience to believe we could change our destinies.  But this show, whether intentionally or because of bad writing, is making a very definitive statement against Free Will.  Because you can literally travel into the past and change everything, and it doesn't make a damn bit of difference other than the McGuffin of Lucy's sister and perhaps now Agent Way-Too-Serious's family.

I think at this point the show needs an "explainer" where either Max Headroom or Elon Musk reflects on the insanity of this show and says something about time currents or some other Star Trek bullshit to somewhat justify why nothing ever changes.  What I really wish the show had done is cleverly work in some silly changes.  Like they come back and there's a different Agent Serious or Rufus's girlfriend is now a dude, and this just becomes part of their normal working lives.  Just something to say, "Hey Audience, we know this whole concept strains logic, but we want you to know that we don't think you're fucking stupid.  Things do change, but some really important things aren't going to change, because reasons."

I also hope they do an episode where they question whether the timeline from the pilot is actually the correct one.  Sure, Lucy remembers her sister from before she started leaping, but is that really the prime timeline?  And if you can go back in time and change shit all willy nilly, does the prime timeline even matter?

I know I'm asking way too much of this show, though.  It's mostly just an excuse to build fun sets and dress our heroes in period clothes.  If Flynn weren't so dramatically compelling, I doubt I'd care about anything that's happening.

[CooperTV]

42 minutes ago, JackONeill said:

At the dinner at the start of this episode, didn't Lucy say something about being a history AND an anthropology expert?

According to the dinner's conversation, she's a professor of "The history and anthropology of American political movements", yep.

Edited December 15, 2016 by CooperTV

[Clanstarling]

1 minute ago, CooperTV said:

According to the dinner's conversation, she's a professor of "The history and anthropology of American political movements", yep.

You beat me, I was just typing this. This specific specialty (is that redundant?) is only marginally supported by what we've seen.

7 hours ago, JasmineFlower said:

She's also getting mighty fit to tied when she's seen as a "little woman", meanwhile seems to have barely a problem with the number of times Rufus has been banished to his role as a slave, the help, or some other marginalized position. I get her being up in arms, but Rufus seems to make the best of the situation and Lucy is feeling too entitled in her dealing with things. Kinda of like the while "I need my sister back" no matter what else needs to happen, but my world needs to be made right.

Agreed. You really nailed part of what's bothering me about Lucy.

[withanaich]

Quote

Along with that. I'm really thinking that the son should have been killed along with his dad and would have been if this was on HBO or Showtime. A hard decision that needed to be made, knowing that history has plenty of sons seeking vengeance for their fathers. And Lucy would have to know this given her command of history. But I'm guessing that's too dark for network TV.

Yeah, that was some real bullshit. I know that they’re still not willing to go there on network TV, but they could have had the kid get killed in some other way. He gets caught in the wake of the Mothership, or Lucy’s attempt to save him actually ends up getting him killed, or he flips out because he just watched some strangers murder his father and they have to kill him in self-defense. But none of this complete cop-out “he’s just a boy” shit. Lucy could have even argued that they couldn't mess things up even more than they already had by KILLING CORNWALLIS. But no, she was arguing that this one act, after all the horrible things Flynn has done, all the people he's killed, would somehow blacken his soul and be the point of no return for him. His wife and child would be perfectly happy to learn all the things he's done, all the innocents he's taken out, that he SHOT ABRAHAM LINCOLN IN THE HEAD, if only he doesn't shoot this one creepy kid who's being groomed to be a rapist and murderer? Come on, man. 

Edited December 15, 2016 by withanaich

[Randomosity]

On 12/13/2016 at 11:15 PM, Cthulhudrew said:

"You two look for Flynn, I'll look for the boy!" Umm... if Flynn's also looking for the boy, then couldn't you all just stay together and do both? lol

...that's making the presumption that Flynn will find the kid?

Divide and conquer made sense to me - two tasks: 1) find Flynn and stop him versus 2) stop kid from running and protect him

[henripootel]

52 minutes ago, withanaich said:

But no, she was arguing that this one act, after all the horrible things Flynn has done, all the people he's killed, would somehow blacken his soul and be the point of no return for him.

He should have just smiled at her grimly and said 'You really are new at this, aren't you?', and shot the kid.

8 hours ago, bros402 said:

Anyone else think the Lucy character might be better as an anthropologist - then she'd be able to give the team a crash course on how to act in the time they have to go to

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but most anthropologists know about as much about colonial dress and protocol as you do.  Which is to say 'we also watch History Channel, or did when it had actual history on it.  You want to know about the behavior of a particular south american tribe, I'm your guy, else you'd be better off asking one of those Civil War reenactor guys. 

Edited December 15, 2016 by henripootel

[dubbel zout]

54 minutes ago, withanaich said:

I know that they’re still not willing to go there on network TV

Not killing Rittenhouse Jr. wasn't because of network TV. It was because the plot demands Rittenhouse be around for at least the first season. This is a 10 o'clock show; it can go dark if it chooses.

[Netfoot]

2 hours ago, CooperTV said:

According to the dinner's conversation, she's a professor of "The history and anthropology of American political movements", yep.

And I have a doctorate in Haute Cuisine Appreciation.

[LoneHaranguer]

15 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

I think the time machine exists in a bubble. Things in the machine don't change (Lucy's locket with a picture of her sister and now Agent Christopher's USB drive. Which suggests the time machine itself wouldn't disappear.

But that doesn't guarantee it's going to maintain the same connection. So, if Rufus was sitting in the time machine waiting for Wyatt, and Wyatt was being chased and, in shooting back, was to kill the wrong, universe-altering, person, the time machine could seem to disappear, leaving him stranded, and Rufus wouldn't see Wyatt any more, since they'd be in two different branches of history.

[Dowel Jones]

1 hour ago, henripootel said:

He should have just smiled at her grimly and said 'You really are new at this, aren't you?', and shot the kid

Or, a real Flynn type would have shot her, then the kid, leaving the writers to scratch their heads in extreme puzzlement.

47 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

And I have a doctorate in Haute Cuisine Appreciation.

I am working on a Masters in Classical Imbibology. 

[withanaich]

Quote

Not killing Rittenhouse Jr. wasn't because of network TV. It was because the plot demands Rittenhouse be around for at least the first season. This is a 10 o'clock show; it can go dark if it chooses.

Well, of course they literally/legally can, and I imagine there was at least one writer who floated the idea, but the higher-ups are still not wont to let that sort of thing happen. Because some 12-year-old might be watching and get the vapors or something, I guess. Yeah, even on a 10 pm show; this is still NBC.

And I'd argue that the plot doesn't really demand that Rittenhouse be around for the first season. Rittenhouse the organization, maybe, but the organization already exists. Actually, that's another good argument that Lucy could have made: killing the founder and his underage son would have just given the group something else to rally around. "They killed our leader and his innocent boy, these peasants must be crushed!"

Maybe when the group gets back to the future they find that something even worse has taken Rittenhouse's place. And then Lucy has to deal with the fact that maybe she should have let Flynn kill the kid, and/or Flynn finds that his wife and kid are still dead and he killed all those people for nothing. There are a lot of directions the second half of the season could go in without Rittenhouse existing. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

 What I really wish the show had done is cleverly work in some silly changes.  Like they come back and there's a different Agent Serious or Rufus's girlfriend is now a dude, and this just becomes part of their normal working lives.  Just something to say, "Hey Audience, we know this whole concept strains logic, but we want you to know that we don't think you're fucking stupid.  Things do change, but some really important things aren't going to change, because reasons."

I know I'm asking way too much of this show, though.  It's mostly just an excuse to build fun sets and dress our heroes in period clothes. 

I agree with you completely and I don't think you're asking too much. I know it would be very hard for the writers to keep track of all the different timelines if they changed every episode and the show just isn't that ambitious. But your idea could be incorporated in fun way that doesn't require that much effort on the writers' part. The fact that there haven't been any changes of note feels lazy.

Quote

But that doesn't guarantee it's going to maintain the same connection. So, if Rufus was sitting in the time machine waiting for Wyatt, and Wyatt was being chased and, in shooting back, was to kill the wrong, universe-altering, person, the time machine could seem to disappear, leaving him stranded, and Rufus wouldn't see Wyatt any more, since they'd be in two different branches of history.

Altering the past isn't going to make the time machine disappear. It could make Agent Christopher, Mason and Rittenhouse unaware of it once they get back to 2016 if it was never built in an altered timeline, but it was still built in the original timeline, and that's where it's from. It's the same with the picture of Lucy's sister. They may have wiped out her existence by altering the timeline, but the picture itself is from the original timeline. So our gang can go back in time and mess up as much history as they want, it's not going to physically alter any of them, it's just going to alter the reality of the impending timeline. They retain their memories, their physical properties, clothing, etc. - whatever they brought with them from the original, pre-messed up timeline. Including the time machine.

[wilnil]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

The fact that there haven't been any changes of note feels lazy

What's really bizarre is that they started down the path of "the timeline is fragile" right in the pilot with Lucy's healthy mom/nonexistent sister/stranger fiancé and since then have shown ever more inconsequential changes that amount to slight rewrites of history chapters or new movies, even when fairly major alterations have been made in the past (e.g., the belief that the Soviets tried to sabotage Apollo 11 should have had major political ramifications). And given everything that's happened In 1780, if they don't return to find incredible timeline changes, the show stops being internally consistent at all.

I'm wondering if they had a change in writing staff since the pilot, and the new writers don't get where the original ones were going.

[BooBear]

1 hour ago, wilnil said:

I'm wondering if they had a change in writing staff since the pilot, and the new writers don't get where the original ones were going.

I suspected that a while ago after the Nazi episode. It was like a complete shift in the show.  I am willing to hand wave some of the changes but in this last episode I don't think I can let it go. There is simply too much. Even Lucy commented on it. 

My question though is how do they get out of this? When there are monkeys flying around their town in the present maybe they will know they really messed up bad. 

[Dowel Jones]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

But your idea could be incorporated in fun way that doesn't require that much effort on the writers' part.

Plus it would allow for some occasional cameos to play off the silliness.  David Duchovny, Kanye West, etc.

[possibilities]

On 12/12/2016 at 11:54 PM, Driad said:

Long ago I read a story with a title something like "The assassination of General Washington." I won't spoil whether it was successful in the story but the method was quite clever.  I have not been able to find this story again. Does it ring any bells?

I have never read the story,  but just now I put "the assassination of George Washington" into my search engine (duckduckgo.com) and got several hits-- they look like discussions of actual attempts, but I don't have the time to read them more thoroughly to find out if there is one that matches what you read (or that is fictional).

On 12/13/2016 at 1:07 PM, green said:

Can Anthony stay in the fancy time machine and use GPS to track Flynn and make short "same time" hops in it?  And does that mean the GPS satellites are mini-time machines hooked up to the main one too?  Add in the Klingon cloaking device and I so want one for myself now.  Great way to beat the morning rush hour.  Or maybe tweak the timer a bit, get up at noon and still be at the office before everyone else.

If you did the sleep til noon, then hop back to work at 9 am you might violate the rule about encountering yourself, and wind up physically dismembered. But I love the idea of Anthony hopping around the forest undetected, following Flynn like an Amazing Race taxi with an invisibility shield. I was awed that thing managed to land successfully in the middle of a heavily wooded area and no trees were disturbed.

On 12/13/2016 at 2:16 PM, Latverian Diplomat said:

what is the purpose of mercy if not to be shown to be the cause of all our problems? :-(

Well, that and vengeance... and arrogance/egomania as per Rittenhouse the Elder and his mates.

The team used their real names this time.

[green]

On 12/15/2016 at 5:21 PM, wilnil said:

I'm wondering if they had a change in writing staff since the pilot, and the new writers don't get where the original ones were going.

Nope.  Same head writer the whole time.

About the American accents on Washington et al.  Well the British accents would have to be changed as well then.  The British at that period didn't sound remotely like they do today. 

I remember a show on the English language and they used King George as an example and they were saying his accent then, the upper class one in England in the late 1700's which British officers who were always "gentlemen" would also have, was most akin to a North Carolina Piedmont area one of today as in think Billy Graham. 

So I never have problems with the accents myself since I know all of them are bogus.  I just don't bother with them because I'd rather understand the actors than the linguistics and not see King George and think Billy Graham in a powered wig either, heh.

Edited December 16, 2016 by green

[Eneya]

I just rewatched, so, Lucy was taken out of the room (I think) and she dealt with her captor in seconds, but couldn't pull away from Flynn? Um??

About the kid... well... killing a kid is a bit harder than a grownup, Flynn was having issues with that too.

About Lucy being unable to accept it, when it is her who is affected... I find it really cool, in the sense "it's no big deal to make a sacrifice... as long as it is not me", which is something that people actually do. :) I am not sure it is intentional on the behalf of the writers though.

[ketose]

It seems pretty obvious that the kid survives, Rittenhouse goes on and probably doesn't even change its name. Like any evil society, RH obviously is as powerful as the writers decide, but they seem to have the power to overcome the effects of time travel. It's starting to remind me of Legends of Tomorrow and Vandal Savage, but at least he had supernatural powers.

The thing that might kill Timeless for me is that their time travel has almost no price to pay and seems to have almost no limits. Frankly, Lucy's sister was part of better pilot writing syndrome and that kind of twist is unlikely to reappear until the season finale. Plus, it seems like they don't even go over what changed anymore, probably because everyone else doesn't know it changed and yet they all seem the same.

[JackONeill]

1 hour ago, ketose said:

It seems pretty obvious that the kid survives, Rittenhouse goes on and probably doesn't even change its name. Like any evil society, RH obviously is as powerful as the writers decide, but they seem to have the power to overcome the effects of time travel. It's starting to remind me of Legends of Tomorrow and Vandal Savage, but at least he had supernatural powers.

The thing that might kill Timeless for me is that their time travel has almost no price to pay and seems to have almost no limits. Frankly, Lucy's sister was part of better pilot writing syndrome and that kind of twist is unlikely to reappear until the season finale. Plus, it seems like they don't even go over what changed anymore, probably because everyone else doesn't know it changed and yet they all seem the same.

Here's the way I thought each episode would play out (with some differences to keep things from getting stale):

The episode would open on one or more team member doing something in "everyday life" (as a way for the audience to get to know them). Then the call would come. We'd get a little background on the time period and discuss theories about what Flynn is up to.

Then the actual mission.

Then the post-trip discussion. What changed if anything? What does it mean in the grand scheme of things? Guess as to what Flynn will do next.

Then the team has drinks to decompress.

But, and as should be obvious, that would take too much time. We sometimes get pieces of each of these items, but rarely do we get it all. I think that's sometimes why so many of us are left scratching our heads.

(BTW - I'm NOT saying each episode has to have a resolution. I do ackowledge that rightly or wrongly this Ritenhouse/Flynn thing is all part of a larger story. Having said that, however, it'd be cool if the writers could give us a few stand-alone episodes.)

[Moose135]

2 hours ago, Eneya said:

I just rewatched, so, Lucy was taken out of the room (I think) and she dealt with her captor in seconds, but couldn't pull away from Flynn? Um??

I imagined that when the shooting started, it distracted her captor and she was able to disable him.

[shapeshifter]

15 hours ago, wilnil said:

What's really bizarre is that they started down the path of "the timeline is fragile" right in the pilot with Lucy's healthy mom/nonexistent sister/stranger fiancé and since then have shown ever more inconsequential changes that amount to slight rewrites of history chapters or new movies, even when fairly major alterations have been made in the past (e.g., the belief that the Soviets tried to sabotage Apollo 11 should have had major political ramifications). And given everything that's happened In 1780, if they don't return to find incredible timeline changes, the show stops being internally consistent at all.

I'm wondering if they had a change in writing staff since the pilot, and the new writers don't get where the original ones were going.

Reading the countless posts on this plot hole in Timeless reminds me of the pilot of Stargate in which firing a Zat gun 3 times at a single target resulted in the the targeted thing or person vaporizing/disappearing, but in subsequent episodes that effect was done away with.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, JackONeill said:

Here's the way I thought each episode would play out (with some differences to keep things from getting stale):

The episode would open on one or more team member doing something in "everyday life" (as a way for the audience to get to know them). Then the call would come. We'd get a little background on the time period and discuss theories about what Flynn is up to.

Then the actual mission.

Then the post-trip discussion. What changed if anything? What does it mean in the grand scheme of things? Guess as to what Flynn will do next.

Then the team has drinks to decompress.

But, and as should be obvious, that would take too much time. We sometimes get pieces of each of these items, but rarely do we get it all. I think that's sometimes why so many of us are left scratching our heads.

(BTW - I'm NOT saying each episode has to have a resolution. I do ackowledge that rightly or wrongly this Ritenhouse/Flynn thing is all part of a larger story. Having said that, however, it'd be cool if the writers could give us a few stand-alone episodes.)

This reminded me of how efficiently the show Sliders used to deal with each alternate universe (at least in the first season). There were few up front explanations, but generally a visual that shouted "this is different" (arctic San Francisco, the blue Golden Gate Bridge, a statue of Lenin in Golden Gate park - or even more subtly, the unsqueaky hinge on the front gate). Seeing the differences (subtle or not) was part of the fun of the show. But then, each show really was about exploring and understanding those differences and trying to get back to their own world.

Still, showing - not telling - at least for some things (which they did for Lucy's sister), is a tool I hope they start to use. Because time travel is fun - but when they're making huge changes, finding out what the results were is just as fun and important.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Clanstarling

[Camera One]

I know Flynn says he has done horrible things, but those words just felt empty and hollow.  

The ending with Flynn kidnapping Lucy was lame.  The cliffhanger of showing what changed would have been much more impactful.

The obvious fact that Rittenhouse will not be defeated halfway through Season 1 makes the episode less satisfying because you already know they won't succeed.  We know they still need Lucy's creepy dad to exist in the future, etc. etc. etc.  But I'm getting tired of the blackmail and the chasing Flynn formula.

Having said all that, I still enjoyed the episode, especially the relationship between the 3 leads.  The dinner with the boss at the beginning was the most interesting part of this episode, yet it's the aspect they neglect the most.

[withanaich]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

I know Flynn says he has done horrible things, but those words just felt empty and hollow.  

I think that was a hamfisted attempt to give Flynn some kind of nuance. Too late, show. I mean, I love him as a villain, and I'm actually pretty interested in watching his interactions with the team, but no matter how bad Rittenhouse is, Flynn has done some things that push him firmly out of the gray area. Unless they explain that all the people he blithely killed were super hardcore evil, I'm not buying that his actions are okay just because he's willing to walk away from his wife and child (or so he says) as penance once he gets them back. 

[Chaos Theory]

5 minutes ago, withanaich said:

I think that was a hamfisted attempt to give Flynn some kind of nuance. Too late, show. I mean, I love him as a villain, and I'm actually pretty interested in watching his interactions with the team, but no matter how bad Rittenhouse is, Flynn has done some things that push him firmly out of the gray area. Unless they explain that all the people he blithely killed were super hardcore evil, I'm not buying that his actions are okay just because he's willing to walk away from his wife and child (or so he says) as penance once he gets them back. 

I think gray is gray for a reason and I like my villians with nuance anyway.  There is nothing worse then mustache twirling villians who villian for villiany sake.  If you're gonna be a bad guy have a good reason dammit!

[CooperTV]

4 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Zat gun 3 times at a single target resulted in the the targeted thing or person vaporizing/disappearing, but in subsequent episodes that effect was done away with.

That effect was used multiple times across the seasons, though. I mean, that's how zat'ni'katel works!