S01.E09: The Trip

[kaygeeret]

I have 17 adopted second cousins.

Three of my mother's first cousins adopted all of them.

I grew up with news of a new kid in the extended family as a celebration. At a family reunion when I was 7, I heard one of my mom's cousins tell her daughter that she was chosen - and after a bit of thought (7 year old style) I decided I wanted to be adopted also.

It killed me to read that "there is a not small group" of anti adoption people. So many children could grow and prosper if the families were as wonderful as my mom's extended (Irish catholic) family.

All the kids are functioning adults (I am 71 and the oldest extended cousin).

While I do not fully understand the angst some adopted children feel and never can, my experience is that full disclosure to EVERYONE in contact with the child - including the child - is the total best way to go.

My cousins are my cousins - full stop!

That means family is family, and they are part of my family.

[Enigma X]

I just finished watching the episode, and I loved it. I don't have much to add other than Jack and Randall (young and real/older and ghost) had me in the feels. I was so glad to see the big three interacting. Olivia is annoying and that is me being mild, so I hope she is gone. I did feel for Rebecca in this episode, but I still feel that she should have told Randall.

[Anela]

1 hour ago, OtterMommy said:

It was in this episode.  It wasn't so much what Olivia *did* to Sloane--but Olivia knew that Sloane didn't feel she could turn her down and exploited the situation.

Sloane hadn't been on the show much before this, but I think the message was pretty clear that Olivia had a long standing diva reputation.

Thank you. I was almost falling asleep as the episode went on - I watched it at 4am - so I missed some of it. 

[hippielamb]

I laughed at Kevin's line of not having learned in high school, he was having sex. Ahahaha! His verbal smackdown of Olivia seems harsh tho it's not completely unwarranted. I like her, still think there's more to her than we've seen. Mr Manbun was annoying. 

Randall continues to have my heart. Wee Randall wondering about his birth family is something I can so relate to. Adult Randall admitting that underneath it all he feels unwanted. Gah! I don't think they um, portrayed being on mushrooms accurately but whatever. It was a nice revelation from Randall. 

8 hours ago, izabella said:

Yes, agreed, she did stick to her diet.  But post-surgery diets are far stricter, liquid for a while and then very strict for a lifetime, some foods will be totally off limits the rest of her life, and major health complications can occur if she goes off the diet even a little bit. 

I'm not saying she shouldn't have it, either.  I just wish they would say more about it than having Kevin say, "it's dangerous."  Maybe they will get to that in future episodes, and maybe they won't.  It just leaves people with a false impression of how hard the surgery and aftermath is, especially if they know little about it, and, as I've seen in real life, that misinformation causes people to toss it out to fat people: why don't you just get the surgery already and be done with it?

You are correct. My cousin had that surgery years ago and she had to weigh her food before eating. It's a serious surgery and Kate should research all of it before making any final decisions. She will lose weight, but it will change her eating patterns for the rest of her life. 

[kili]

Quote

I know young William was played by a younger actor last night. But am I imagining that Ron Cephas Jones played younger William at some point?

Young William was played by Jermel Nakia in this episode and "Kyle".

[Texasmom1970]

23 hours ago, MzLiz said:

I don't even want kids and I want Jack to be my baby Daddy. That scene was so awesome.

Even dead Jack is the perfect father with just the right advice. 

I laughed so hard at the scene where the guy says "who drank my smoothie with mushrooms" followed by a close up vision of Randall wide-eyed and clearly stoned. 

Glad to see Kevin tell off Olivia (and true to character hooks up with the pretty girl who got left behind).

The scene where William gets the letter after getting so excited that he may see his son made me about cry. 

This show just stomps on your heart each week breaking it to pieces and then putting it back together again. Seriously the best written show ever.

On the shallow end, shirtless Milo V is quite the yummy vision. 

I so agree with you thinking this is the best show written ever. It is the perfect storm of wonderful writing, interesting story lines, amazing actors - both the young and older cast. Yes, there are some that shine more than others, but I think even the annoying ones are doing a good job at their parts.

Every episode is such a wonderful ride of joy, sadness, meaningful moments and humor all perfectly blended together. I get so emotionally sucked in by it all. Even though I have not had the exact experiences I can empathize and feel a bit of what they are portraying. To me that is the testament of an amazing show. I said it before this show and some or many of the actors better get recognized for this work.

[SlackerInc]

Psychedelic mushrooms don't really work that way, but w/e.

Something I can take to the UO thread: I am still shipping Kevin and Olivia.

21 hours ago, SueB said:

I get her panic when Randall was young.  It's very complicated.  OTOH, I wonder why she didn't tell him after 18 or 21.  Perhaps it has something to do with Jack's death?  IDK. 

I think she might have been more willing to if she had some way of feeling certain Randall would never find out she had been keeping it from him throughout his childhood.

14 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I know a woman who got pregnant in1968 while she was in college.  Everyone,  doctors, family, friends, magazines, and her sociology classes told her to give the baby up for adoption, that any other decision would be selfish and the child would have a poor, stigmatized life.  Now, this show, seems to be saying just the opposite.

I don't feel like the show is saying just the opposite, but I wouldn't mind if they did.  I think that traditional message pressuring young/poor women to give up their babies "so they can have a better life" is terrible.  It's all about maintaining a supply of babies for affluent, infertile couples, and that makes me sick.

12 hours ago, saber5055 said:

I do want to know how many men here can do any pushups much less a dozen or more with a nine year old on their back.

I could do a few, but probably not with the kid on my back.  I hope the other poster speculating was right that the dojo wasn't giving that same assignment to all dads regardless of their physiques.

44 minutes ago, kaygeeret said:

It killed me to read that "there is a not small group" of anti adoption people.

I suppose I'm part of that "not small group".  I don't mind the modern trend toward more open adoption, but in general I'd like to see society be more supportive of young or poor women being able to raise their own kids.  If you have a lot of money and want to use that affluence to obtain a baby (because let's face it: the majority of Americans don't have enough money to qualify as adoptive parents*), I'm really not that sympathetic to you.  And I certainly don't like the idea of pretending there is no difference between being an adoptive vs. biological parent.

*Jack and Rebecca didn't seem to have a ton of money at the beginning themselves, but I guess that's another thing to handwave away.

[Court]

My understanding is that adoption is incredibly expensive if done through private agencies or overseas. However, if done through foster care, it is not expensive. 

This is not an issue I'm incredibly educated on but that is my basic understanding.

[OtterMommy]

11 minutes ago, SlackerInc said:

*Jack and Rebecca didn't seem to have a ton of money at the beginning themselves, but I guess that's another thing to handwave away.

 

2 minutes ago, Court said:

My understanding is that adoption is incredibly expensive if done through private agencies or overseas. However, if done through foster care, it is not expensive. 

This is not an issue I'm incredibly educated on but that is my basic understanding.

My understanding from people who have gone through it is that adopting through foster care is next to nothing--possibly some minimal lawyer and filing fees.  The cost for a private adoption goes to the agency, not the legal workings.

As for Jack and Rebecca's finances--it did seem that they were living in an apartment when the babies were born but it looks like their fortunes change as time goes on, as one would expect.  I think that Jack sacrificed his own professional aspirations for financial security when he decided to work with Miguel as Miguel was promoted (and Rebecca and Miguel's house looks very nice,  or at least the door that we saw in this episode does).

[DebbieM4]

12 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Maybe, but that's not what we have.  He isn't a real SOB or murderer.  He's a poet and musician who got his life together.  And could have been a presence in his son's life.

Rebecca's actions may be understandable, but to me she was thinking more of herself than Randall.  "I can't lose him."  What about what Randall was losing?  And she is the one who decided not to speak up about what she knew about the biological parent.  Who had no chance to either terminate his parental rights or not (yes, I know he effectively did when he took the baby to the firehouse) because she chose to keep material facts from the court.  That's kind of a big deal.  I suspected that's what happened but now she confirmed it. 

P.S.  Thank gods for Brexit. 

Yes!  I agree with all of this.  

She knew that William had gotten his life together and was desperate for contact with his son, and she still decided - on her own - to deprive Randall of a relationship that could have enriched his life, a relationship he clearly wanted.    At the very least, she should have discussed this with Jack, who absolutely had the right to know.   It was a decision they should have made together, as parents,.   Jack was as much Randall's parent as she was.  I would be furious if my husband kept information like that from me.

I also can't get past her popping into William's life again.  They had left it that there would be no contact, and she should have stayed away.  Toying with his emotions was incredibly unfair.  I think she did a disservice to Randall, Jack, and William - all 3 of them.  When you become a parent, life is no longer supposed to be all about you.  She acted in her own best interests, and no one else's.  Jack had the right to know, Randall had the right to know, and she should have just left William alone rather than stirring up false hope by dangling the prize and then pulling it away.   

[breezy424]

I can't find much on adoption laws in Pennsylvania in the 80's but it certainly seems like papers had to be filed.  The biological parents (if known) do have some rights as to objecting to a adoption and changing their minds.  William's problem was that he abandoned his child.  I don't know what the laws were at the time (abandoning a child).  I'm assuming that Rebecca and Jack legally adopted Randall and William did not have any legal right to Randall.  It wasn't the Dark Ages in 1980 and there had to be some sort of process that had to have been gone through. 

Rebecca's fears were not about losing Randall legally.  It was about losing Randall emotionally.  I get that on a certain level.  She did owe it to Randall to give him the information that Randall desperately wanted when he was an adult.  The problem with lies is that there usually are more lies to cover the lies.  I get Randall's anger and Rebecca was a coward for not telling Randall the truth when he was an adult.  Randall loved Jack.   He was his father.  That wasn't going to change.  Jack knew that all along.  Rebecca was much more insecure and I think we'll see that in time.  We saw a glimpse of that when she ran out on William when she visited with William when Randall was eight or nine.

[DebbieM4]

11 hours ago, Jillybean said:

This is my favorite show, and Sterling K. Brown is my favorite actor in it, but I HATED Randall's mushroom trip.  I couldn't think of any circumstances under which Randall would drink a smoothie that some stranger brought to their cabin. And the fact that Kate & Kevin just left him to his own devices outside seemed wholly implausible.  There were so many ways they could have gone with this storyline, and choosing a hallucinatory drug trip seems like such tripe.  The scenes of Randall hallucinating his family in another time rang false to me. I hope they bounce back next week, because this episode was a "miss" in my book.  /UO

I agree with you.  This is the first episode that I found disappointing.  Much too contrived.  The mushroom trip aspect was too gimmicky for me, and I agree that Randall would be extremely unlikely to grab a random smoothie and drink it, especially in a cabin where there were people he didn't know.  It wasn't as though he was home and maybe assumed that Beth had made it for him.  And it didn't ring true that Kevin & Kate would have been so unconcerned and just left him outside.  I think the writers are better than this.  Too much about it took me right out of the story, and that hasn't happened for me in any previous episodes.

I also would have liked more of the three of them alone together, not scattered all over with minimal interaction.  We finally had all of them in the same place, and had to contend with Olivia and the random others, which just seemed stupid and pointless.  I guess we needed them in order to have Randall drink that damn smoothie, but I wish that entire idea had been scrapped.  Disappointing episode overall, IMO.

[Chewy101]

On 11/30/2016 at 0:42 AM, Bama said:

It's the mark of good writing that I can see that everyone in this situation was right and wrong and that all the characters reactions were real and believable.

THIS! I can relate to so many sides, and that is what tugs at my heart. Every one that acts out, I can see their point. Well done, show....

Toby proved he could not choose Kate over a better lifestyle without bad food, so she was wise to move on, but she is definitely having trouble doing so.

I have always loved Jack and how earnestly he wanted fulfillment with his children and wife, but Randall feeling like he belonged was difficult with the twins there.

I get why Rebecca did not want to expose Randall to his unstable father. It was better when Randall was an adult. I hope he realizes that. So easy to be angry when you don't know what it looked like when you were a child.

[Love2dance]

I apologize if this has been said before as I haven't read every post, but when Randall was born, I don't think open adoptions were even close to the average occurrence. Rebecca would likely not have seen an example of a successful open adoption, so would be more fearful of it than adoptive parents might be today.

[chocolatine]

3 minutes ago, Chewy101 said:

I get why Rebecca did not want to expose Randall to his unstable father. It was better when Randall was an adult. I hope he realizes that. So easy to be angry when you don't know what it looked like when you were a child.

But Rebecca was not planning to to expose him to William, ever. If Randall hadn't found William, taken him into his house, and had him meet his family, Rebecca would have taken the knowledge of William to her grave.

[bros402]

18 hours ago, Crs97 said:

UO here, but I didn't love the Dojo scene.  Maybe because I just kept thinking what if Jack hadn't been physically strong enough to do the pushups.  It was moving for what it was, but I just felt like it was written to be a moving tear-jerker scene rather than organic to the story.

That is what I was thinking!

[Chewy101]

On 12/1/2016 at 1:12 AM, chocolatine said:

But Rebecca was not planning to to expose him to William, ever. If Randall hadn't found William, taken him into his house, and had him meet his family, Rebecca would have taken the knowledge of William to her grave.

But she had no confidence that he would ever be truly stable., and the viewers are still wondering if there is something squirrely about William, even now. I get her doubts.

On 12/1/2016 at 1:12 AM, chocolatine said:

But Rebecca was not planning to to expose him to William, ever. If Randall hadn't found William, taken him into his house, and had him meet his family, Rebecca would have taken the knowledge of William to her grave.

I guess I don't have a problem with that. Let the kid find him himself. Randall had some crappy siblings, but his parents were awesome, let him find his own blood. 

Sorry, tried to double post so the two comments would merge, but I don't think it will.....

[Marley]

I don't know I love Randall and feel for him but I think he is totally overreacting. Rebecca wasn't trying to be horrible. 

I also don't like how they are kind of making William into this saint. I like the character but it was pretty lame of him to not cop to his original problems that first caused Rebecca to not trust him. 

I wish Olivia and Toby were gone forever lol.

Just gonna be honest too I've been crazy high from some shrooms before but I've never seen anybody like that. I know it's a tv show lol but still.

[DearEvette]

22 hours ago, Crs97 said:

UO here, but I didn't love the Dojo scene.  Maybe because I just kept thinking what if Jack hadn't been physically strong enough to do the pushups.  It was moving for what it was, but I just felt like it was written to be a moving tear-jerker scene rather than organic to the story.

I think that was the point of the dojo exercise  --  reassurance that if Jack wasn't there or could not lift up Randall that there would be a whole line of men ready to hold Randall on their backs to "lift him up."  Which is why the rest of the men also had to lift up Randall. I think the message of the initiation was to assure that that Jack show he was willing to lift up his kid, no matter how hard, but to be assured what would happen if he couldn't. I would imagine that the men who lgo to that dojo kinda know what to expect so they might be prepared.  Yvette knew of it, because she sent them there deliberately.  But I would imagine a less fit father, or a mother who enrolls her kid there who has no father would have gotten a similar but not 100% the same message.

Now, I think Jack did so many push ups because he was trying to prove something to himself given their circumstances.   He wanted to be the guy for Randall.  The Dojo guy actually told Jack to "stop, that is enough" but Jack kept going.

[Crs97]

I agree with the intention, but think about the dojo's speech, that intention, and a father in a wheelchair.  Is he somehow less willing to left up his son?  Do the other dads have to step in because he can't handle it?  How does that further the dojo's speech about being the foundation?  Are physically unfit dads less than?  It fit perfectly for a moving scene for Jack, but left me shaking my head rather than tearing up. 

Show runners say they found it on YouTube for a child without a dad so all the other men lifted him in push-ups.  They knew what to expect; this sprung on Jack didn't feel organic.

[JudyObscure]

7 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

I suppose I'm part of that "not small group".  I don't mind the modern trend toward more open adoption, but in general I'd like to see society be more supportive of young or poor women being able to raise their own kids.  If you have a lot of money and want to use that affluence to obtain a baby (because let's face it: the majority of Americans don't have enough money to qualify as adoptive parents*), I'm really not that sympathetic to you.  And I certainly don't like the idea of pretending there is no difference between being an adoptive vs. biological parent.

I don't think adoption agencies want people to be filthy rich, just well off enough to provide  decent care for the child.  It's certainly not all about money, my brother and his wife were well off but couldn't adopt because they were "too old," when she was 37 and he was 50. But whether affluent or not, I think people adopt because they want to give a home to a child who might otherwise be raised in an institution.  There are countries where war and disease has produced thousands of orphans.  I can't imagine why you would be "unsympathetic," to their desire to help these children.

If you think American babies are snatched from unwilling mothers these days, I doubt that.  It's not Ireland in the 40's. Most of the stigma is gone and our society is very supportive of poor single mothers; Aid to Dependent Children (welfare), food stamps, subsidized housing, Medicare, Medicaid, and in some states, free pre-school and college tuition for the mothers. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

One of the things I really like about this show is that even when the characters make mistakes, I can understand their motivation for making those choices. In this episode, just about everyone screwed up in one way or another and with the exception of Olivia, I understood why.

Kate should not have been texting and calling Toby. Woman, you just dumped him. Leave him alone. I know it's hard when the first person you want to share things with is the person you just broke up with (although in this case, I still have a little bit of an eye roll regarding just about everything in the Toby/Kate relationship because they've been dating, like, all of a month?).

Kevin should not have invited Olivia to the cabin. That was such a selfish, immature, inconsiderate thing to do under normal circumstances (invite the pill of a woman who you have already inflicted upon your family without bothering to tell your brother and sister that you have invited a non-sibling to a sibling outing), but the fact that this was their last trip to the cabin makes it even worse. I get that Kevin feels like he has a connection to Olivia, but it pained me to see how he was joining in with her "this is so quaint" bullshit to ingratiate himself with her.

This is the episode I was looking forward to with all three of the adult siblings together. And then stupid Olivia and her stupid man bun friend showed up so instead of getting Randall/Kate/Kevin bonding and reminiscing, we got stupid Olivia and her stupid friend man bun friend condescendingly talk about their childhood cabin.

I just want to reiterate: OLIVIA IS THE WORST.

I loved that Randall made a numbered list of reasons why he was mad at his mom. That is such a perfectly Randall thing to do.

It may not be fair, but--sadly--it is realistic.  The fact is Jack is gone and the big three probably idolize him more in his absence than they did in his life.  My aunt and uncle had several kids and my uncle died several years ago, after all the kids were well into adulthood (my aunt in still living).  Even though my uncle was an uninvolved parent at best, you'd think by talking to his kids that he walked on water (and, unfortunately, their mother was the root of all their problems).  This is a completely different narrative from what they had when he was still living and healthy and, frankly, not an accurate one.

It's not fair...but it's natural.

Since my dad passed away in 2011, my mom has changed their marriage to a normal, every day marriage to a fairy tale and he brought her flowers and wrote & sang love songs to her every day and he did everything around the house and waited on her hand and foot and she never had to do anything (OK, maybe a slight exaggeration, but not much).  No, that's not the way it was. They had their ups and downs, but she has rewritten history (which is understandable because she misses him, but sometimes I want to remind her I know the way he really was).

Same here. My parents did not have the healthiest marriage. They were about to get divorced when my dad was diagnosed with cancer, so they ended up not divorcing. Since my dad died, my mom constantly tells me how much she misses my dad. Meanwhile, I remember my dad complaining that sometimes she would go days without speaking a single word to him (this was after his cancer diagnosis, so it's not like their relationship magically improved once he got sick). My mom has rewritten history so that instead of the contentious relationship that we were all forced to witness, she tries to paint their marriage as this happy perfect relationship. I don't mean to sound heartless or anything because I'm sure she misses him now that he's gone, but it's hard for me to take this rosy idealized version of their life together as the truth when I remember what they were like with each other. So I will understand if we find out Jack isn't perfect but the kids only remember the good stuff about him. It definitely happens that way in real life.

[Johnny Dollar]

I really wish they didn't kill off the Jack character. Although I fear they will soon hit us with a storyline that will somehow turn the kids against his memory by showing he wasn't always St. Jack. 

[ClareWalks]

I know Randall doesn't seem like the guy to drink Stranger Man Bun's mystery smoothie, but he doesn't seem to have a problem with Beth's marijuana stash, so maybe he figured it was spiked and decided to get high and drink it? I was so tickled by the episode title pun (which I figured out mid-Randall-"trip") that I didn't really notice it as being out of character.

[Court]

Randall also brought a smoothie to the cabin. Maybe he thought it was his.

Randall is already aware of why William left him at the fire station. They had that discussion at the initial meeting.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Court

[Tiger]

8 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

 

My understanding from people who have gone through it is that adopting through foster care is next to nothing--possibly some minimal lawyer and filing fees.  The cost for a private adoption goes to the agency, not the legal workings.

As for Jack and Rebecca's finances--it did seem that they were living in an apartment when the babies were born but it looks like their fortunes change as time goes on, as one would expect.  I think that Jack sacrificed his own professional aspirations for financial security when he decided to work with Miguel as Miguel was promoted (and Rebecca and Miguel's house looks very nice,  or at least the door that we saw in this episode does).

I think right before the kids were born Jack & Rebecca had just moved into the house we see them in in 1981, 1988, and 1995.

[PRgal]

7 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

I suppose I'm part of that "not small group".  I don't mind the modern trend toward more open adoption, but in general I'd like to see society be more supportive of young or poor women being able to raise their own kids.  If you have a lot of money and want to use that affluence to obtain a baby (because let's face it: the majority of Americans don't have enough money to qualify as adoptive parents*), I'm really not that sympathetic to you.  And I certainly don't like the idea of pretending there is no difference between being an adoptive vs. biological parent.

*Jack and Rebecca didn't seem to have a ton of money at the beginning themselves, but I guess that's another thing to handwave away.

Regarding adoption:  So what do you propose same-sex couples who don't want to use a surrogate or sperm donor do if they want kids?  What about straight couples who cannot have children due to health concerns?  Just don't bother having kids because it wasn't meant to be?  And don't get me started about international countries closing off (it can be bit upsetting for people looking to adopt children from their own heritage communities - "minority" children available for adoption domestically doesn't always "fit" one's heritage if that's what prospective parents have a preference for.  I was told straight up when I called about a public domestic adoption that there are VERY FEW kids of East Asian ancestry.  And I live in a city with a fairly significant Asian population.  Private adoptions are even MORE scarce, regardless of race).  Anyway...as someone who HAS experienced the adoption process (but no luck as of yet), it can be very stressful on the couple.  There is A LOT of waiting and uncertainty.  Which is why I'm a bit critical of Randall's process.  Of course, this isn't only fiction, but also 36 years ago! 

Anyway, to make this post legit:  I wonder if Randall's hallucination will be addressed again later on in the season. 

[TVForever]

On 11/29/2016 at 11:31 PM, cardigirl said:

It may be an unpopular opinion, but I was put off by Randall's intense anger at his mother. Kind of a spoiled brat reaction, it seemed to me. The whole thing about telling his wife that he didn't have a Beth or William list. Oh poor Randall, everyone conspires against him, that's why his life is so bad. 

I would understand disappointment, and shock, and some anger. To me he came across as entitled, I hope he gains some empathy in the future. 

Not that I agree completely with Rebecca's choices, but I do understand her fear of losing another child. I thought that hallucination Jack did well in revealing Rebecca's inner turmoil and fear at losing her family. 

I'll sit at that table with you. I like Randall, but I find him to be a bit high strung even at the best of times. For goodness' sake, I can see his type of reaction coming from a very young adult, but from a 36-year old man? By that time, you've seen some things and know that people do all kinds of things for all kinds of reasons. By that age, you should be mature enough to sit down, alone,

with your mother and ask her, " What the Hell, Mom?" And then listen to her answer. 

[PRgal]

41 minutes ago, TVForever said:

I'll sit at that table with you. I like Randall, but I find him to be a bit high strung even at the best of times. For goodness' sake, I can see his type of reaction coming from a very young adult, but from a 36-year old man? By that time, you've seen some things and know that people do all kinds of things for all kinds of reasons. By that age, you should be mature enough to sit down, alone,

with your mother and ask her, " What the Hell, Mom?" And then listen to her answer. 

I wonder if Randall's attitude is due to work stress.  With his kind of job, I'm surprised he's even home early enough to be with his family most days (or at least from what we've seen so far). 

[kili]

Quote

 I like Randall, but I find him to be a bit high strung even at the best of times. For goodness' sake, I can see his type of reaction coming from a very young adult, but from a 36-year old man?

I'm starting to wonder if that is because he has spent much of his life being the central focus of his family? He was a sweet kid, but in the flashbacks, he always seems to suck all the oxygen out of the room. I hope we see some balance at some point, but his parents seem constantly concerned with catering to his latest need. It's not that he is a demanding kid, it's just that Rebecca and Jack are shown spending the vast majority of their time addressing issues related to him that they notice. 

They discuss him, drive him to play dates, take him to work and both attend his dojo class. His dad works a job he hates to pay for his expensive private school. Rebecca goes off to visit his bio-dad. The only time we see these parents do things with the other two is when they do something all together as a family. 

It's all little Randall all the time. If that is a true depiction of their family life, I'm surprised the three kids aren't more messed up than they are.

Even Beth seems focused on keeping Randall happy. She's threatening his Dad, squaring off against his brother, tangling with his mom. She is determined to protect him.

I hope that we start seeing more balance. 

[Tikichick]

10 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

Psychedelic mushrooms don't really work that way, but w/e.

Something I can take to the UO thread: I am still shipping Kevin and Olivia.

I think she might have been more willing to if she had some way of feeling certain Randall would never find out she had been keeping it from him throughout his childhood.

I don't feel like the show is saying just the opposite, but I wouldn't mind if they did.  I think that traditional message pressuring young/poor women to give up their babies "so they can have a better life" is terrible.  It's all about maintaining a supply of babies for affluent, infertile couples, and that makes me sick.

I could do a few, but probably not with the kid on my back.  I hope the other poster speculating was right that the dojo wasn't giving that same assignment to all dads regardless of their physiques.

I suppose I'm part of that "not small group".  I don't mind the modern trend toward more open adoption, but in general I'd like to see society be more supportive of young or poor women being able to raise their own kids.  If you have a lot of money and want to use that affluence to obtain a baby (because let's face it: the majority of Americans don't have enough money to qualify as adoptive parents*), I'm really not that sympathetic to you.  And I certainly don't like the idea of pretending there is no difference between being an adoptive vs. biological parent.

*Jack and Rebecca didn't seem to have a ton of money at the beginning themselves, but I guess that's another thing to handwave away.

It's interesting that someone who assumes that societal pressure drives adoption to feed the wants and needs of the wealthy automatically assumes that the portrayal of a working class family adopting a child must be simply a TV fantasy to be explained with a hand wave in the sea of suspended disbelief a viewer sometimes accepts .  As someone with a ringside seat to literally hundreds of adoptions, as well as adversarial termination of parental rights cases, I respectfully suggest you might want to broaden your knowledge base and not assume the subject is anywhere close to the cut and dried financial transaction you suggest the majority of the time.

[GodsBeloved]

2 hours ago, Crs97 said:

I agree with the intention, but think about the dojo's speech, that intention, and a father in a wheelchair.  Is he somehow less willing to left up his son?  Do the other dads have to step in because he can't handle it?  How does that further the dojo's speech about being the foundation?  

Since the pushups were symbolic I'm sure the dojo would modify the speech if a father is wheelchair bound or had some other physical limitation that did not allow him to do pushups.

[GodsBeloved]

1 hour ago, ClareWalks said:

I know Randall doesn't seem like the guy to drink Stranger Man Bun's mystery smoothie, but he doesn't seem to have a problem with Beth's marijuana stash, so maybe he figured it was spiked and decided to get high and drink it? I was so tickled by the episode title pun (which I figured out mid-Randall-"trip") that I didn't really notice it as being out of character.

And I still want to know WHY Beth has marijuana. If it was her dad's why is she keeping it?

[izabella]

19 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

And I still want to know WHY Beth has marijuana. If it was her dad's why is she keeping it?

The same reason people have beer or margaritas? She likes getting high sometimes because it's fun?

Edited December 1, 2016 by izabella

[luna1122]

Plenty of people have a weed stash. It doesn't seem very mysterious to me why she'd have it.

[Clanstarling]

7 hours ago, Marley said:

I don't know I love Randall and feel for him but I think he is totally overreacting. Rebecca wasn't trying to be horrible.

Well, maybe if William was healthy, and there was time to spare, his reaction would have been a little more measured. But knowing he could have had years with his father, instead of the likely months, I think that would set anyone off.  She wasn't trying to be horrible, no. But her lies robbed him of a lot, well meaning or not.  I, personally, don't feel like he was overreacting at all. To find out you've been lied to your entire life is a pretty big deal. It takes time to get over the initial rage to try to understand the other person - which Randall was on his way to doing at the end of the episode.

I think Rebecca's actions, while Randall was a child, were understandable for the most part. Except for not telling Jack. Hiding it from her husband, I think, shows that she knew she was in the wrong.

But I agree with a lot of posters - the wonderful part of this show is that everyone is flawed, there are grey areas everywhere. (Except Olivia - when they started with her backstory I was all "Nope. Don't need another character with hidden depths. Don't want to see a redemption arc for this one. Go away."

A couple of comments - when it came to William and Randall's birth mother, I don't think they explicitly indicated who started with the drugs. It was just a series of vignettes. But it does seem to me that in that first meeting between Randall and William, he did talk about his drug use.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Clanstarling

[ClareWalks]

20 minutes ago, izabella said:

The same reason people have beer or margaritas? She likes getting high sometimes because it's fun?

Yeah, I think there was an assumption made that the weed was somehow left over from her dying father's medical supply, but there was absolutely no mention of the origin of the pot on the show. I figure she likes it. Not particularly weird in this day and age.

[saber5055]

Did anyone else laugh when Kevin took a picture of the stoned Randall? And mushrooms in a smoothie ... just a big NO to that. But it must have been yummy since Randall drank half of that quart bottle.

[ChromaKelly]

21 hours ago, Jaclyn88 said:

I don't really see how rebecca is in the wrong here. She is right. There is no paperwork to keep Randall with her family in case William decides he wants him back. She doesn't know william from a hole in the wall. All she knows is he left his son outside of a fire station which doesn't ring as exactly trustworthy behavior. 

They legally adopted Randall. The birthparents' parental rights were terminated by default. William would have had to hire a lawyer and prove that he was unaware of Randall being placed and adopted. I get why Rebecca was scared though, as this was the 80's and there were movies of the week about birthparents coming back to take their children. However, she should have at least given him the information when he became an adult.

[saber5055]

Hoping beyond hope that this is the last I see of Toby. I suspect he won't be all that about Kate if she loses weight anyway. There are men like that, they only want women no other men will look at. And Kate, you have to go through meetings with doctors and counseling before a gastric bypass, you don't just walk in on some random day and get one.

[OtterMommy]

25 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

Plenty of people have a weed stash. It doesn't seem very mysterious to me why she'd have it.

It might even be legal in PA (is it?  It's legal in my state and I can't keep straight where it is or isn't.  I don't partake, but I also don't think it is the worst thing in the world if used responsibly).

[izabella]

6 minutes ago, saber5055 said:

Hoping beyond hope that this is the last I see of Toby. I suspect he won't be all that about Kate if she loses weight anyway. There are men like that, they only want women no other men will look at. And Kate, you have to go through meetings with doctors and counseling before a gastric bypass, you don't just walk in on some random day and get one.

Toby's ex was attractive, so I don't think Toby is one of those men.

[ChromaKelly]

2 hours ago, PRgal said:

Regarding adoption:  So what do you propose same-sex couples who don't want to use a surrogate or sperm donor do if they want kids?  What about straight couples who cannot have children due to health concerns?  Just don't bother having kids because it wasn't meant to be?  And don't get me started about international countries closing off (it can be bit upsetting for people looking to adopt children from their own heritage communities - "minority" children available for adoption domestically doesn't always "fit" one's heritage if that's what prospective parents have a preference for.  I was told straight up when I called about a public domestic adoption that there are VERY FEW kids of East Asian ancestry.  And I live in a city with a fairly significant Asian population.  Private adoptions are even MORE scarce, regardless of race).  Anyway...as someone who HAS experienced the adoption process (but no luck as of yet), it can be very stressful on the couple.  There is A LOT of waiting and uncertainty.  Which is why I'm a bit critical of Randall's process.  Of course, this isn't only fiction, but also 36 years ago! 

Anyway, to make this post legit:  I wonder if Randall's hallucination will be addressed again later on in the season. 

PRGal - There is a TON of corruption in International adoption, which is why many of the countries are closing. Perhaps we can move a more in-depth discussion of adoption to the social issues thread. I'm an adoptive parent via domestic adoption. I also researched international before deciding it wasn't for us. I'm involved in a lot of adoption groups, I would suggest joining some to thoroughly research your options.
I happen to agree with the poster to whom you were replying. I think we as a nation should focus on family preservation and social safety nets as opposed to adoption. Of course there are other reasons a woman might choose to place besides poverty, but that is still a reason, even in our supposedly well-off country. The pain and loss of my son's mother is not lost on me.

[Guest]

14 hours ago, HeyThere83 said:

Snickered to myself earlier today thinking this could also be titled: "This Is What Rebecca Did To Us." 

Sigh....I'm sure there will be some shocking "twsit" coming later with Jack, but there is a strategic reason for waiting and giving him all these types of scenes now. Same for Miguel. It's a cop-out to me. Is it just easier to point all fingers at Rebecca? Or is it to have fewer characters that are "dirtied up"? Since nobody can be *too* unpleasant. Except for in the case of certain plot devices aka supporting characters Olivia, Miguel. I mean, why not give at least one issue that Jack was responsible for....and then give the other 50 to Rebecca? Or one to William? And 49 to Rebecca? Or make Jack alive? Or William not dying? That to me would not be taking the easy way out. 

I don't think I agree with this.  The past few episodes, yes, Rebecca has been the one painted in a bad light. But the first few episodes, she was painted as a very involved, hands on mom. We had scenes with Jack staying out drinking instead of going home to his family.  Even Randall's big issue started with William's choice and not Rebecca's. I actually think we've seen a pretty bad side of every character with the exception of Beth and Randall and Beth's kids.

[Enigma X]

1 minute ago, deaja said:

I don't think I agree with this.  The past few episodes, yes, Rebecca has been the one painted in a bad light. But the first few episodes, she was painted as a very involved, hands on mom. We had scenes with Jack staying out drinking instead of going home to his family.  Even Randall's big issue started with William's choice and not Rebecca's. I actually think we've seen a pretty bad side of every character with the exception of Beth and Randall and Beth's kids.

I would even argue that we have seen a bad side to Randall depending on where you fall on how he handled the Rebecca situation or his intensity. This is what I like about this show. These are not merely black and white.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

I would even argue that we have seen a bad side to Randall depending on where you fall on how he handled the Rebecca situation or his intensity. This is what I like about this show. These are not merely black and white.

I just realized I wasn't clear. I think we've seen a definite bad side to Randall. Nothing terrible, but several times he was not perfect (his overcompetitiveness with Kevin comes to mind). I mean 1) Beth and 2) Randall and Beth's kids. 

[ShadowFacts]

Re:  Kevin and his women, is falling into bed his way of saying hello, how do you do?  No time to get to know someone a little, just straight to sex?  Easy come, easy go, and age is just a number and all of that, but getting toward one's late thirties, maybe a different approach is in order.  Maybe he's perfectly content with his fleeting relationships, or could be it's an avoidance technique.  

[Tikichick]

2 hours ago, TVForever said:

I'll sit at that table with you. I like Randall, but I find him to be a bit high strung even at the best of times. For goodness' sake, I can see his type of reaction coming from a very young adult, but from a 36-year old man? By that time, you've seen some things and know that people do all kinds of things for all kinds of reasons. By that age, you should be mature enough to sit down, alone,

with your mother and ask her, " What the Hell, Mom?" And then listen to her answer. 

 

1 hour ago, kili said:

I'm starting to wonder if that is because he has spent much of his life being the central focus of his family? He was a sweet kid, but in the flashbacks, he always seems to suck all the oxygen out of the room. I hope we see some balance at some point, but his parents seem constantly concerned with catering to his latest need. It's not that he is a demanding kid, it's just that Rebecca and Jack are shown spending the vast majority of their time addressing issues related to him that they notice. 

They discuss him, drive him to play dates, take him to work and both attend his dojo class. His dad works a job he hates to pay for his expensive private school. Rebecca goes off to visit his bio-dad. The only time we see these parents do things with the other two is when they do something all together as a family. 

It's all little Randall all the time. If that is a true depiction of their family life, I'm surprised the three kids aren't more messed up than they are.

Even Beth seems focused on keeping Randall happy. She's threatening his Dad, squaring off against his brother, tangling with his mom. She is determined to protect him.

I hope that we start seeing more balance. 

I think Randall being upset, very upset, is perfectly understandable.  You've lived your entire life wondering and yearning deeply about your birth family, suddenly your terminally ill father is known to you, he seems very worthwhile to know, he loves you AND you discover your mom who watched your suffering your whole life had the answers you'd so desperately craved?  No matter his age, give him a minute.

I do hope that our perspective as viewers about Randall seemingly being raised on a pedestal has been skewed by the peeks we've been allowed behind the curtain so far.  I suspect that there is indeed a bit of that element with regard to Rebecca because of her anxieties and her guilt about her choice to withhold evidence, but I hope for everyone's sake, including Randall's, that we've seen a disproportionate amount of that behavior in the scheme of things thus far and there is much more balance in the full picture to come.  

[GodsBeloved]

51 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

It might even be legal in PA (is it?  It's legal in my state and I can't keep straight where it is or isn't.  I don't partake, but I also don't think it is the worst thing in the world if used responsibly).

According to the article I read Maine, Massachusetts, Colorado, Washington, Oregon, Nevada, California and Alaska have legalized recreational use of marijuana.

Edited December 1, 2016 by GodsBeloved

[GodsBeloved]

1 hour ago, saber5055 said:

Did anyone else laugh when Kevin took a picture of the stoned Randall?

That was hilarious and so true to life these days.