S01.E05: The Alamo

[Lugal]

15 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

When she was writing and wadding up paper, I was thinking, "Paper was a luxury back then, Lucy!"

At the very least she should have realized what she did right afterwards and cursed herself.  I think that's a problem with this show, they miss the little details like that.  Although they did have Flynn speaking with a Castilian accent, which was cool.

More tragic backstory for Wyatt.  I don't really care.  I feel like the show keeps telling me how great he is and always makes the right choice, but honestly it seems like he always wants to go in with guns blazing against Flynn regardless of the circumstances.

Flynn's plan (and Flynn himself) was dropped halfway through the episode when Santa Anna raised the red flag.  I think it would have been more interesting if he was able to negotiate a peaceful surrender of the Alamo, probably after killing Santa Anna.  Without the martyrs would the revolution have continued?

36 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

1937 - He tried to blow up the Hindenburg on its way home, when he would have killed people involved in planning D-Day. Theoretically this would have made the Allies lose WWII.

1865 - He tried to kill Grant and Johnson, two future presidents. I'm no history expect, but I'm sure they did some things that helped the US and their absence would have caused issues.

1944 - He tried to hand that scientist over to Russia, making the US potentially lose the space race and the Cold War.

1836 - He tried to stop the letter from getting out of the Alamo, leading to Texas not being a state, and probably hurting the US's chance of becoming a superpower.

He does seem to be trying to weaken the US, maybe curbing US imperialism.  I'm assuming that Rittenhouse is either connected to or possibly controlling the US government, so weakening one would weaken the other.

[TWOPrefugee]

Wait. What was the date they went back to? The only date I remember seeing was March 5. The day before the Alamo fell.  But Travis's letter was penned on February 24. The show meticulously quoted the letter word for word at the beginning of the episode but couldn't be bothered to get the dates right?

[dubbel zout]

Victor Zink Jr. was Baumgartner.

[Shanna Marie]

10 hours ago, DAngelus said:

Also, he's from Ohio, although he could at least attempt a more Texan (or in this episode, Texian) accent, it's true.

Texans don't necessarily sound like movie Texans. Wyatt joined the military (which means being around people from all over), has been stationed overseas and probably in a variety of places in the States, and has learned multiple foreign languages (as we learned last week). If he had an accent to begin with (which may or may not be the case, depending on where in the state he's from -- if he's from one of the major urban areas, he might never have had an accent), he's probably lost it. At most, you might catch him drawling a little more if he's just been on the phone with his parents. I'd be more likely to cry foul if he had an obvious accent, because that would be a clear sign of Hollywood Texan as opposed to something more realistic. I'm also pleased that we haven't seen him wearing cowboy boots or Western shirts. He's just a guy, which is like most of the Texans I know. (I've spent most of my life in various parts of Texas, aside from times overseas when my dad was in the military.)

Oh, and no erasing Texas. I'm not willing to give up Dr Pepper, chicken-fried steak, frozen margaritas, or fajitas.

[JackONeill]

Two random comments:

A woman did survive the siege of the Alamo. Mrs. Dickinson. She was married to a captain who died there. She and her daughter, as well as any blacks still alive, were allowed to leave even though Santa Anna had declared No Survivors. (And it's believed Crockett survived the battle, but was executed.) Now, I know this is a TV show, and I can't hold them to precision, especially since they only have about 43 minutes to tell a story with many characters. Still, I'm surprised the world-renowned historian, Lucy, didn't know about Dickinson. Again, it would have only taken one or two lines to address. But, in the grand scheme of things, I guess it's not that important.

Also, and this is even more troubling as only having one person who knows how to drive the time machine: What happens if Wyatt gets killed, or just drops his gun and it gets left in the past??? Especially in the 1800s, that could cause some serious "time paradox" issues. What of the Civil War if there were automatic weapons? And where would weaponry be by the time of WWI or II if they had such a large jump start on technology?

4 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Oh, and no erasing Texas. I'm not willing to give up Dr Pepper, chicken-fried steak, frozen margaritas, or fajitas.

 Texas or no, let's NOT get rid of those other things!!!!

[withanaich]

Quote

Oh, and no erasing Texas. I'm not willing to give up Dr Pepper, chicken-fried steak, frozen margaritas, or fajitas.

Wait, wait, wait. DR. PEPPER?! Aw, shit, I think you guys might have finally convinced me that Texas is worth having. Damn. Okay, I'll put up with the existence of country music and chicken-fried steak if it means I get Dr. Pepper.

[orza]

We could have those things today without having to put up with Texas. Dr. Pepper and chicken-fried steak would have been invented elsewhere, possibly just north of Texas, by Americans who didn't want to be part of Mexico. Food and drinks would be brought north and popularized by vacationers.

[Moose135]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

Wyatt joined the military (which means being around people from all over), has been stationed overseas and probably in a variety of places in the States, and has learned multiple foreign languages (as we learned last week). If he had an accent to begin with (which may or may not be the case, depending on where in the state he's from -- if he's from one of the major urban areas, he might never have had an accent), he's probably lost it.

Born and raised on Long Island, and after college, I spent a year in Mississippi in Air Force pilot training.  When I went back home around the holidays, people said I talked funny.

[iMonrey]

Quote

Victor Zink Jr. was Baumgartner.

Come back, Bam Bam!

[thuganomics85]

Even though I knew he wasn't going anywhere, I'm glad they at least addressed Wyatt's inability to kill Flynn, and he did get some heat from it. Granted, they did quickly find a way to prevent him from ever getting fired thanks to Lucy and Rufus' protest (but I did notice that it was really Rufus refusing that was a deal breaker, because there are other historians out there), but at least I can handwave that going forward.  That said, they probably should be prepared for back-ups, incase anything ever bad did happen to one of those three.  And maybe training new recruits will give Paterson Joseph and Sakina Jaffrey more to do besides hang around computer monitors for all of their scenes.

Wyatt's backstory was by the numbers, but I didn't mind too much.  He's still my least favorite character, but I don't dislike him or anything, so I can really put much effort into getting upset.  I do want to start a tally though, because I do suspect that he's probably been the most responsible for the majority of the time-altering fuck-ups, out of the team.  He gets way too invested in these things.

Enjoyed all the stuff in the Alamo, although as soon as they mentioned the aquaduct problem, I was wondering why not just use the grenades, so Rufus came off a bit slow for not thinking of it earlier.  Still, I enjoyed the scenes with Rufus and Davy Crockett, and Boone was good too.  Jeff Kober was a perfect fit, and I've been seeing Chris Browning in a ton of stuff lately (Westword, Supergirl, Agent Carter), so it was nice having him pop up here as well.  Can't wait to see what Canadian-based show he shows up on next!

Not much Flynn in this one, but him actually being upset over the General deciding to kill women and children too was an interesting moment. Would that ruin his plan or did he simply not want innocents harmed?  He's still likely a bad guy, but I guess he has his limits.

The sooner they reveal Lucy's father, the better.  It being Flynn still seems like the obvious choice, so maybe they'll shake it up.

[legaleagle53]

7 hours ago, sjohnson said:

Santa Anna was correct about how slaughtering everyone was the only way to keep the letter from getting out. Presumably this is meant to show Garcia Flynn is not EEEEEVIL but an anti-hero. 

Perhaps, but that wasn't the reason for Santa Anna's "No survivors!" order.  That policy had been in place for some time prior to the Alamo massacre because Santa Anna blamed the American colonists living in Mexico for fomenting the revolution in the first place (which he saw as the US meddling in Mexican internal affairs), so he had them all declared "pirates" subject to summary execution upon capture, no exceptions.  Santa Anna was xenophobic to the max (notice that he even asked Flynn whether Spain had now decided to interfere in Mexican affairs; Mexico had been independent from Spain since 1824), not unlike certain political figures today, so he believed that the only good American was a dead American.  If he could have built a wall to keep American colonists out (and made the US pay for it), he most certainly would have.  Since he couldn't, a general extermination policy was the next best thing.  Flynn's attempt to get him to call off the attack or at least let the women and children go free was seen as a direct assault on this policy, and Flynn is lucky that Santa Anna didn't have have Flynn shot right then and there as a collaborator with the revolutionaries.

Edited November 3, 2016 by legaleagle53

[JackONeill]

53 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

The sooner they reveal Lucy's father, the better.  It being Flynn still seems like the obvious choice, so maybe they'll shake it up.

Sudden and very strange thought: What if Lucy's father is Wyatt??!!  Is there a way?? Some of you people seem to be up on time travel a lot more than I am. I know that it can change just about anything.

[Shanna Marie]

14 minutes ago, JackONeill said:

Sudden and very strange thought: What if Lucy's father is Wyatt??!!  Is there a way?? Some of you people seem to be up on time travel a lot more than I am. I know that it can change just about anything.

I have a hard time imaging Wyatt as a professor.

Time travel can change stuff, but I don't know that it changes individuals. If the blending of genetic material works out to produce the same human being, I don't think that person is necessarily going to be drastically different. He might grow up in a different environment, but unless the time shift changes something so that his birth parents give him up for adoption and he grows up in a radically different family, he's going to be more or less the same person in abilities and interests. That's why the "he turns out to be gay in this timeline!" thing doesn't work for me because that's more of a nature thing. Changing the circumstances of the world probably isn't going to change his orientation. I guess if history changes enough, say WWII doesn't happen, so his grandfather isn't a war hero who inspires Wyatt to join the military, it's possible that he would pursue another path. It's harder to imagine how he might be in that path back in time in a way that fits Lucy's mother's story. Maybe if her story had been that she had a brief encounter with a mysterious stranger who rescued her from some tall lunatic with an accent and then disappeared, it would fit. But Wyatt being Lucy's father would require him to get stuck back in time long enough to be established as a professor and then strike up a relationship. Does Lucy have the same last name as her mother? You'd think he'd clue in on that and not get involved with her. I could imagine him being the kind of guy to fall in love with a woman he met in the past, perhaps down the line after he's more ready to move on from his wife, but it's hard to fit any likely scenario into Lucy's mother's story.

With Flynn, I don't know. It would have to happen later in his timeline, while he knows it's already happened in Lucy's timeline. And now my head hurts.

[DAngelus]

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Wait - was Bam Bam played by Marc Blucas? I didn't recognize him.

No, no, I didn't mean to imply that.  I just meant that Matt Lanter gets compared to Blucas a bit, as they rather resemble each other.  The difference being that Lanter claims to be 5'10", whereas Blucas is noticeably taller.  Sorry if I was unclear.

[KaveDweller]

6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

See - here's the thing. Presumably, Flynn did not expect Lucy, Wyatt and Rufus to follow him to 1937 and screw up his plans. Right? So why would he go to 1937 first, and then 1865 second? Had Lucy & Co. not followed him, and had his plan in 1937 been successful, whatever he meant to do in 1865 could potentially wipe out whatever he did in 1937. It doesn't make any sense to do something to change history in one year then go back further in time and change something else, whether he's trying to screw up US history, wipe out Rittenhouse, or both. 

Therefore, I can only guess that whatever he's trying to do, he thought he could do in 1937. And since Lucy & Co. foiled his plans for 1937, and since he's not allowed to go back again for a "do-over," he had to move on to Plan B - which is screw up something in 1865. And since Lucy & Co. foiled that plan, he had to move on to Plan C, etc. 

Yeah, it must be that he keeps failing and picking a new event. Maybe that's why he keeps coming back to the present between trips. He needs to check the history books for ideas. They don't seem connected at all, they could just be different random attempts at change.

But that sort of contradicts the journal we saw in the pilot. I'm trying to remember exactly what he said about it. Did he say he was specifically he was following plans in the journal?

[crazycatlady58]

Well as a third  generation  Texan I am sorry  to hear all the hate of Texas.

[legaleagle53]

5 hours ago, crazycatlady58 said:

Well as a third  generation  Texan I am sorry  to hear all the hate of Texas.

Not all of Texas -- just its leadership.  We're still allowed to hate Rick Perry and Ted Cruz, aren't we?

[NaughtyKitty]

On 10/31/2016 at 8:21 PM, vibeology said:

So Garcia Flynn is definitely her Dad, right? Between Flynn's freakout when the women were trapped inside to mom's story and name on a folded piece of paper I don't see this going any other way. 

That is exactly what I had come here to write.  I totally believe it.  great minds.....

[iMonrey]

Quote

The sooner they reveal Lucy's father, the better.  It being Flynn still seems like the obvious choice, so maybe they'll shake it up.

They don't spend much time on their present-day lives, so I expect this father reveal to come about in drips and drops throughout the season, with maybe an answer in the season finale. But I really doubt it's Flynn - it's more likely to be someone connected to Rittenhouse. I think the whole mystery of who and what Rittenhouse is and does is tied up in whoever Lucy's father is.

Clearly, Flynn has a book from Lucy's future, meaning he himself has gone to the future even if he's not from the future. But I think the latter is more likely. And that doesn't really jibe with being Lucy's father, if he's from her future. It makes more sense if he's her son.

Quote

But that sort of contradicts the journal we saw in the pilot. I'm trying to remember exactly what he said about it. Did he say he was specifically he was following plans in the journal?

No, they didn't really explain what he was using it for. I did a freeze-frame on it and it was just a lot of random historical notes about that era. He could just be using it as a guide. 

Quote

 Matt Lanter gets compared to Blucas a bit, as they rather resemble each other.

Oh - I see it now, now that you mention it.

[sjohnson]

^^^Garcia Flynn has her journal because he inherited from his mother?

[NorthstarATL]

On 11/1/2016 at 6:12 PM, saber5055 said:

And OH YEAH, Wyatt 's buddy Bam Bam was a hottie mac hottie, and looked the part of a bad ass Delta Force guy on top of it. Here's hoping he does replace Wyatt, or at least they let him ride along for some kick-butt eye candy. (Unlike the angst-ridden man-child Wyatt.)

Why tease us with things we COULD have had, show? That's just cruel! I thought Wyatt staying behind would have been interesting fodder for future stories. What is he was always meant to, and nothing changed in the timeline? What if things changed, but not so as to be noticeable and NewWyatt appears as a cliffhanger? Anyway, it was a pretty good episode. Everyone got to do something important and Lucy finds out her father is.....

[wilnil]

I thought they missed a potentially interesting twist re Wyatt staying behind -- they could have had him do that, then Rufus and Lucy return to the present and get asked, "What happened to Baumgartner? Why didn't he come back with you?" They realize they've somehow come back to a timeline where Bam Bam had showed up soon enough to replace Wyatt on that timeline's version of the Alamo mission -- and Wyatt's still there in the present as a consequence, so TPTB have no choice but to put him back on the team at least for the next couple missions.

[legaleagle53]

2 hours ago, wilnil said:

I thought they missed a potentially interesting twist re Wyatt staying behind -- they could have had him do that, then Rufus and Lucy return to the present and get asked, "What happened to Baumgartner? Why didn't he come back with you?" They realize they've somehow come back to a timeline where Bam Bam had showed up soon enough to replace Wyatt on that timeline's version of the Alamo mission -- and Wyatt's still there in the present as a consequence, so TPTB have no choice but to put him back on the team at least for the next couple missions.

That makes no sense.  How could Baumgartner have retroactively replaced Wyatt on the mission to the Alamo in 2016 if Wyatt had stayed behind and died in 1836?  The two events simply have no cause-and-effect relationship.  Wyatt would have had to go back in time to die in 1836 in any event; if he never leaves 2016 because Baumgartner went back instead, then there's no way for Baumgartner to retroactively replace him on the mission in 2016 in the first place because there's no one to retroactively replace, so Wyatt and only Wyatt ever leaves 2016 to go back to 1836.

Edited November 3, 2016 by legaleagle53

[wilnil]

Not every timeline change in the show has a clear cause -- sometimes it just seems to be a butterfly-flapping-its-wings thing because there's no way of knowing which past action caused which changes. The biggest example we've seen so far is Lucy having a fiance.

So, Timeline A: In which the original trio heads back in time because Baumgartner hasn't arrived yet, but in this case Wyatt decides to stay, fight and die at the Alamo. But something they or Flynn's people do while in 1836 has effects that include, far in the future, a minor change in Baumgartner's travel times. So they head back to 2016, expecting to have to explain Wyatt's absence. But...

When they arrive, they're in Timeline B, where the alternate version of Mason & co. -- who, from their perspective, sent Lucy, Rufus and Baumgartner back -- are befuddled by Lucy and Rufus insisting it was Wyatt with them, especially because alternate-universe Wyatt is standing right alongside them agreeing that he was replaced by Baumgartner just before the mission.

[legaleagle53]

52 minutes ago, wilnil said:

Not every timeline change in the show has a clear cause -- sometimes it just seems to be a butterfly-flapping-its-wings thing because there's no way of knowing which past action caused which changes. The biggest example we've seen so far is Lucy having a fiance.

So, Timeline A: In which the original trio heads back in time because Baumgartner hasn't arrived yet, but in this case Wyatt decides to stay, fight and die at the Alamo. But something they or Flynn's people do while in 1836 has effects that include, far in the future, a minor change in Baumgartner's travel times. So they head back to 2016, expecting to have to explain Wyatt's absence. But...

When they arrive, they're in Timeline B, where the alternate version of Mason & co. -- who, from their perspective, sent Lucy, Rufus and Baumgartner back -- are befuddled by Lucy and Rufus insisting it was Wyatt with them, especially because alternate-universe Wyatt is standing right alongside them agreeing that he was replaced by Baumgartner just before the mission.

But the cause of Timeline B is simple speculation on your part and nothing more.  Flynn and the others are completely irrelevant, because the pivotal event is Wyatt going back in time and dying in 1836. If Wyatt never goes back in time to begin with, the whole thing falls apart.

[possibilities]

On 11/1/2016 at 11:44 AM, green said:

This article was just awesome in and of itself but add in the real history oddities you mentioned they could have used instead?  Nun biting epidemic?  Laughing outbreak?  Dancing in the streets to no music?  And they were all real events besides?  Really really cool finds.

These sound like something from Drunk History!

 

On 11/1/2016 at 4:03 PM, Dowel Jones said:

if they kill Flynn in the past, how do they get both time machines back to the present?

Ha! They really need to train a co-pilot, don't they?

I am going to guess that Garcia is her dad. Only because (1) mom refuses to talk about it (perhaps because Garcia asked her not to); (2) and the actress looks like she could be his daughter. Also at the start of the show he had lost his wife and child so perhaps in sort of a rebound he met Lucy's mom and fathered her. If he was her son you would think he would be uber protective of her. Last week didn't he allow the Nazi's to have her? 

I would think a dad would be at least as protective as a son. My current theory is that the show isn't making sense.

I think it might be funny if they kept firing the military team member, and sending a new one, because they all fail to kill Flynn. But only if the show was more funny, and less serious.

What I really think they should do is change the order so they are supposed to capture Flynn and bring him back to base, not kill him. That way, they wouldn't need to make the team assassin look incompetent and they wouldn't need Lucy to be ambivalent about the mission because of her confusion about Flynn having her supposed diary.

Also, I think they should have Lucy confide in the team about what Flynn has told her. I still don't know why she hasn't done that. If she trusts them so much, it's time to come clean. Likewise, Rufus needs to let them know about Rittenhouse and the secret recordings and how his family was threatened.

[dr pepper]

On 11/2/2016 at 11:34 AM, Shanna Marie said:

Oh, and no erasing Texas. I'm not willing to give up Dr Pepper, chicken-fried steak, frozen margaritas, or fajitas.

I would miss Dr Pepper. But i'd make the sacrifice if it meant getting rid of country music.

Otoh, english language radio would probably be dominated by norten~os.

[crazycatlady58]

On 11/4/2016 at 7:34 AM, dr pepper said:

I would miss Dr Pepper. But i'd make the sacrifice if it meant getting rid of country music.

Otoh, english language radio would probably be dominated by norten~os.

I do not think country  music  comes only from Texas  .  I  never  liked  country  music  always  thought  it was depressing.

Edited November 4, 2016 by crazycatlady58
Because I can spell.

[Mrs OldManBalls]

On 2016-11-02 at 2:01 PM, Lugal said:

At the very least she should have realized what she did right afterwards and cursed herself.  I think that's a problem with this show, they miss the little details like that.  Although they did have Flynn speaking with a Castilian accent, which was cool.

What throws me is seeing the lead actress manicure. For example, at that time in Texas she would have had the nail length/shape/colour she did. Nit-picky I know, but it jumped out at me. 

I like the moments when the team first reaches their destination (after the carsick goes away) and they get all fangirly over the historical figures. Loooooooved Rufus' man crush on DC! 

[Raja]

On 11/2/2016 at 3:32 PM, DAngelus said:

No, no, I didn't mean to imply that.  I just meant that Matt Lanter gets compared to Blucas a bit, as they rather resemble each other.  The difference being that Lanter claims to be 5'10", whereas Blucas is noticeably taller.  Sorry if I was unclear.

Speaking of taller when Baumgartner showed up I was thinking what the hell. For perhaps the first time giving my Army veteran service rivalry status I was thinking make him a SEAL.  It has come to pass that when politicians want to send  message that we sent our best there is all the publicity in the world that the SEALs were sent in while Detachment Delta tends to work undercover  and since the 80s and Chuck Norris dueling with Charlie Sheen and Magnum PI's Navy SEALs you rarely hear about Delta Force anymore. Wearing a two day growth of beard is going to hide a basketball power forward standing head and shoulders above the people he is supposed to be infiltrating.

 

And I agree about Wyatt being the proper age for a US Army Master Sergeant E-8. When I served my company First Sergeant E-8 was 33.  My Platoon Sergeant was a 31 year old E-7 before being promoted to the First Sergeant of another company. In the Battle of Mogadishu (Black Hawk Down)  Medal of Honor recipient Master Sergeant Ivan Gordon of US Special Forces Detachment Delta was 33 when he gave the ultimate sacrifice 

[Moose135]

10 hours ago, possibilities said:

I think it might be funny if they kept firing the military team member, and sending a new one, because they all fail to kill Flynn. But only if the show was more funny, and less serious.

It could be a thing, like Murphy Brown's secretary.

[green]

13 hours ago, possibilities said:

I think it might be funny if they kept firing the military team member, and sending a new one, because they all fail to kill Flynn. But only if the show was more funny, and less serious.  ...

Also, I think they should have Lucy confide in the team about what Flynn has told her. I still don't know why she hasn't done that. If she trusts them so much, it's time to come clean. Likewise, Rufus needs to let them know about Rittenhouse and the secret recordings and how his family was threatened.

If they kept changing the military team member or having him killed off in the past each time even it would so be Spinal Tap's drummers all over again.  I'd love it.

Lucy did ask Mason and the Homeland Security woman (what is her name?) who Rittenhouse was after the first mission.  Flynn had suggested she do just that.  Both denied ever having heard the name like ever.  We know now that Mason at least out and out lied to her.  Which is a long way of saying yeah, why not also ask Rufus at least since he has been around on this project the whole time.

Oh yeah, I know.  The writers want to hold back logical choices and moves like this because they have to find something to mess up the time travelers from ever getting stuff all figured out and fixed.  Only way they can keep the show going after all.  But when you throw away complete common sense in your basic plot lines the show might not keep going much longer anyway.  You have to give viewers something semi-intelligent even in a time travel show.

[kili]

Quote

More tragic backstory for Wyatt.  I don't really care. 

I think we are going to find out that is why he was picked for this mission. He said it himself, there is nobody to go back for, so why not die at the Alamo? His wife is dead. His friends are dead. I'm sure his family is dead. He is completely expendable.

Rufus was picked because he's the only one who can drive (time to get new drivers). Lucy was picked because she wrote the diary and Rittenhouse knows something about it.

Rufus had to pick that hole into the aquaduct before he could use the grenades to blow it open. Throwing a grenade at a flat stone on the floor in a big room is just going to direct most of the blast at the rest of the room. Once he could get the grenade into the acquaduct, some of the expanding pressure going up would break the rock.

In the Pilot, Flynn tries to blow up the Hindenburg with Rockefeller, Bradley and Sikorsky on it. Bradley has a tank named after him and was Commander in Chief for the Normandy invasion. Sikorsky invented the helicopter. Rockefeller got rich on oil. Flynn has also tried to disrupt the US Space Program and make sure Texas stayed Mexican. Texas has oil and played a major role in the US Space program*. Coincidence?

Texas is also home to a lot of high tech industries like Motorola and airplane manufacturers. Could Rittenhouse be amongst them?

I don't know the connection back to the Lincoln assassination and Vegas appears to have just been a stop to get fuel. I suspect Texas is important.

*Granted, Von Braun worked on rockets and that work was done in Alabama.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I thought they missed a potentially interesting twist re Wyatt staying behind -- they could have had him do that, then Rufus and Lucy return to the present and get asked, "What happened to Baumgartner? Why didn't he come back with you?" They realize they've somehow come back to a timeline where Bam Bam had showed up soon enough to replace Wyatt on that timeline's version of the Alamo mission -- and Wyatt's still there in the present as a consequence, so TPTB have no choice but to put him back on the team at least for the next couple missions.

I think the simpler solution would have been for them to come back from the Alamo, and have Wyatt go "OK, I'm out. Go ahead and send in Bam Bam." And then have Agent Christoper be all like "Who's Bam Bam? What are you talking about?" Then Wyatt realizes they screwed up something and Bam Bam never existed. 

Quote

What I really think they should do is change the order so they are supposed to capture Flynn and bring him back to base, not kill him. That way, they wouldn't need to make the team assassin look incompetent and they wouldn't need Lucy to be ambivalent about the mission because of her confusion about Flynn having her supposed diary.

Yes - this. I mean, the premise really lends itself to correcting a major problem with the show. Let them return from one of their trips to find Mason Industries changed in some pivotal way, which in turn has changed the very nature of their mission.

[KaveDweller]

5 hours ago, green said:

If they kept changing the military team member or having him killed off in the past each time even it would so be Spinal Tap's drummers all over again.  I'd love it.

Lucy did ask Mason and the Homeland Security woman (what is her name?) who Rittenhouse was after the first mission.  Flynn had suggested she do just that.  Both denied ever having heard the name like ever.  We know now that Mason at least out and out lied to her.  Which is a long way of saying yeah, why not also ask Rufus at least since he has been around on this project the whole time.

Was Rufus not there when she asked Mason and Homeland lady about it? I thought he was and didn't say anything for the same reason he is recording Lucy and Wyatt.

[SyracuseMug]

20 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

But the cause of Timeline B is simple speculation on your part and nothing more.  Flynn and the others are completely irrelevant, because the pivotal event is Wyatt going back in time and dying in 1836. If Wyatt never goes back in time to begin with, the whole thing falls apart.

I’ve been trying to get my head around the OP’s scenario, and so far have been unsuccessful. In addition to the “Wyatt” paradox, another question nags at me. 

As I understand it, the situation unfolds like this:

1) The original team goes back to 1836.

2) Wyatt dies, and something happens which becomes the catalyst for a minor change in Baumgartner's 2016 travel times.

3) Mason & Company now live in a timeline where Wyatt died at the Alamo; and Lucy, Rufus and Baumgartner had gone back to 1836.

But when the time machine returns to 2016 (of Timeline B), and the door opens, who is inside? From their perspective, Lucy and Rufus were alone, so if Baumgartener isn’t in there, where did he go? And if he is in there, how can Lucy and Rufus not remember coming back with him?

If the OP can address this conundrum, it would be helpful.

[legaleagle53]

14 hours ago, SyracuseMug said:

I’ve been trying to get my head around the OP’s scenario, and so far have been unsuccessful. In addition to the “Wyatt” paradox, another question nags at me. 

As I understand it, the situation unfolds like this:

1) The original team goes back to 1836.

2) Wyatt dies, and something happens which becomes the catalyst for a minor change in Baumgartner's 2016 travel times.

3) Mason & Company now live in a timeline where Wyatt died at the Alamo; and Lucy, Rufus and Baumgartner had gone back to 1836.

But when the time machine returns to 2016 (of Timeline B), and the door opens, who is inside? From their perspective, Lucy and Rufus were alone, so if Baumgartener isn’t in there, where did he go? And if he is in there, how can Lucy and Rufus not remember coming back with him?

If the OP can address this conundrum, it would be helpful.

I think it might be a good idea to move this discussion (and similar ones regarding paradoxes and what-ifs that arise in various episode threads) to this thread, which I just created to keep us from going any further off-topic here.

Edited November 5, 2016 by legaleagle53

[jhlipton]

On 11/1/2016 at 3:34 AM, Dowel Jones said:

I liked Rufus's "Viva Mexico" upon hearing that slavery had been outlawed there, and Lucy admonishing him "Don't say that too loudly here."  There are larger considerations....

So Flynn waltzes into the Mexican Army camp with a bag load of silver and a letter from Queen Isabella of Spain, and he expects Santa Anna to just roll over?  Uh, thanks for the bullion, good buddy, but we just kicked those fools out of our country not too long ago.  Hit the road.

I keep wanting to give this show a chance, but that threw me right out.  Santa Ana would have said "Thanks for the gold... Shoot him." and gone back to battle plans (not dinner, for crying out loud).

[Terrafamilia]

Hmm, they bust through the floor to get to a structure, the aqueduct, underneath. Does this mean the Alamo actually has a sort of basement like thing, kinda? Paging Mr. Herman.

Time to run and duck...

[methodwriter85]

On 11/2/2016 at 10:35 AM, GoMocs said:

I assumed Flynn didn't want the women/children killed not because of Lucy, but because of what he was trying to prevent, the letter. By stopping the letter it was perceived that possibly the US wouldn't have rallied behind the Texans and Texas would have remained part of Mexico. However, if Santa Ana killed all the women and children it would be like in the Battle of the Bulge in WWII when the Germans lined up the US prisoners and shot them all. It would really piss of the US and be even worse than the letter being written.

That was my thought. It wasn't about Flynn having some kind of moral limit- it was about the fact that he wanted the Alamo to be something insignificant that the United States didn't care about. Pulling a massacre that included women and children would have done enough to create an outrage even without the letter. It might have even moved up the Mexican-American War.

Edited November 6, 2016 by methodwriter85

[tvfanatic13]

On November 3, 2016 at 7:25 PM, legaleagle53 said:

That makes no sense.  How could Baumgartner have retroactively replaced Wyatt on the mission to the Alamo in 2016 if Wyatt had stayed behind and died in 1836?  The two events simply have no cause-and-effect relationship.  Wyatt would have had to go back in time to die in 1836 in any event; if he never leaves 2016 because Baumgartner went back instead, then there's no way for Baumgartner to retroactively replace him on the mission in 2016 in the first place because there's no one to retroactively replace, so Wyatt and only Wyatt ever leaves 2016 to go back to 1836.

See, now I have a headache! 

[saber5055]

To answer Terrafamilia, if Rufus hadn't blown that hole in the floor to the aquaduct, PeeWee's bike would have to be hidden somewhere else, which would (dum de dum dum ...) CHANGED HISTORY!

[Randomosity]

On 11/1/2016 at 5:15 PM, BooBear said:

I am going to guess that Garcia is her dad. Only because (1) mom refuses to talk about it (perhaps because Garcia asked her not to); (2) and the actress looks like she could be his daughter. Also at the start of the show he had lost his wife and child so perhaps in sort of a rebound he met Lucy's mom and fathered her. If he was her son you would think he would be uber protective of her. Last week didn't he allow the Nazi's to have her? 

If she looks enough like him that you think they're related and only separated by one generation, you can just as easily spin it the other way and have him be her son.

Kudos to Dr. Kovac for the lithpy Ethpañol accent. :)

[Terrafamilia]

1 hour ago, saber5055 said:

To answer Terrafamilia, if Rufus hadn't blown that hole in the floor to the aquaduct, PeeWee's bike would have to be hidden somewhere else, which would (dum de dum dum ...) CHANGED HISTORY!

Arrgh! I'm getting one of Capt. Janeway's time travel headaches.

[LoneHaranguer]

On 11/3/2016 at 7:25 PM, legaleagle53 said:

The two events simply have no cause-and-effect relationship.  Wyatt would have had to go back in time to die in 1836 in any event; if he never leaves 2016 because Baumgartner went back instead, then there's no way for Baumgartner to retroactively replace him on the mission in 2016 in the first place because there's no one to retroactively replace, so Wyatt and only Wyatt ever leaves 2016 to go back to 1836.

There's no reason why a cause from one reality can't have an effect in another. Quantum physicists have been able to create seeming paradoxes on a small scale by making a reality "disappear", taking with it a link in a cause-and-effect chain.

[Dowel Jones]

On 11/1/2016 at 1:55 PM, officetemp said:

 

Pay no attention to that; I couldn't delete it. 

Personally, I think that Rittenhouse has the hots for Lucy, and is taking the ridiculously long way around to use Flynn to try and insert himself in her life as her fiance'.  Problem is, something is going wrong each time and when they come back to the present he's still out of the loop.  "Dammit, that didn't work.  Okay, let's try going back to October 1929.  Maybe I can cash in on the Great Depression."

[TobinAlbers]

Catching up in a binge and so far I'm loving the show for the mindless escapism it's supplying.

However they've definitely drawn from The Blacklist for their formula with a mysterious globe/timetrotting man with nefarious motives who is connected to a smart, capable woman that is tasked to hunt/use them for world affecting situations. Plus he has a personal connection to the female lead and theorized that he may be her father or have some very close familial connection to her that will make her life complicated down the line. They need to settle that angle ASAP because it killed Blacklist for me.

Don't mind Wyatt's emo issues as you gotta give him something although how about a twist and he lost his husband rather than a wife?) and have always like ML although I will say that this role would've been Jensen Ackles if he wasn't still on Supernatural. And that yes Jim Caviezel's Reese from POI is the ideal vision of this role. Having said all that,  I think the three leads all have great chemistry as a team and I especially like Wyatt and Rufus's interactions. They mesh well.

Also the balance personal story works so far as each have something outside their time travel jaunts that they're dealing with - Lucy with her missing sister and mystery about her dad, Wyatt about his wife (I think that letter is still going to come into play-maybe she's not really dead, she just faked her death?) and Rufus has Rittenhouse breathing down his neck.  I don't know how they'd pull it off but I would LOVE if during a time travel trip they changed something where Wyatt comes home and he's a widow with a kid.  Then he's going to be totally against any kind of changes while Lucy is going to still want to tweak to get her sister back. Drama!

Very much appreciate GV as Garcia Flynn. He's bringing some dry humor to a lot of his interactions even as you believe he'll totally take you out for his cause. Although you got Susanna Thompson and imagining her in the role as the lead antagonist makes me wish that they'd rejiggered the lead antagonist a bit with her as lead and GV as her henchman/partner. It still could happen since with all the time travel tweaks, mom could be pulled in to become a major player and GV could be killed off OR when the new tweak to the timeline happens, he's now on the team rather than the antagonist.

Shallow note GV was working his Alamo attire.

[shapeshifter]

12 hours ago, TobinAlbers said:

...Wyatt about his wife (I think that letter is still going to come into play....

I had assumed the letter was just an example of how they can't predict changes, but after reading your post, I see no reason why in another episode she wouldn't exist because she did get the letter when they come back to the present — mailing the letter in the past is sort of like putting Schroedinger's cat in a box.

[saber5055]

Quote: "And that yes Jim Caviezel's Reese from POI is the ideal vision of this role." Well, they could fly back in time and save Reese so he could join Team Time Traveler. And as for changing history being so bad, they did it on their first trip (mom is now healthy and sister is gone) and also changed Fleming's book writing. So WTH, just fix whatever and screw history, gang. That history, this history ... what's the dif.

And on a shallow note, all three looked great in their Old West garb this week. Nice job, Wardrobe.

[blackwing]

I think it makes more sense that Flynn is Lucy's son from a future timeline.  There must be a reason why he is so cordial to her and so concerned that the women and children would get out of the Alamo.  He has had many opportunities to kill or injure her.  He hasn't.  Because if she is gone, then so is he.  I suppose he could be her father, and no father would ever harm his daughter.  My issue with that is that he has seemingly never cared about her before.  She went through 30+ years of her life thinking another man was her father and he never saw her?  Not even as a "friend of the family".  I wouldn't buy that all of a sudden now he knows about her and feels the paternal pull.  

If he is her father or her son, why doesn't he just say so?  Probably because they are saving it for the season finale "shocking reveal", but it would save everyone a lot of time and therefore there would be no show.  "Lucy, I'm your son.  Everything I am doing, it is to preserve your timeline and future.  Please call off your dogs.  Toodles."