S07.E02: The Well

[ShadowSixx]

This was a solid episode. Ezekiel and Richard from the Kingdom are likeable so far. I think they're awesome. Even the kid whose name I forgotten already lol but I'm sure I'll learn it. Shiva is cool and a nice fit but I highly doubt that a tiger is that manageable. 

I don't like that Negan now has three groups under his thumb being Hilltop, ASZ, and the Kingdom. Negan is the only getting anything out of the deal while the others will face death if they don't deliver the food and whatever else. Now is the time for Ezekiel, Rick, & Jesus to get their groups together and take out Negan. 

I do like that Richard sent them infected pigs but I don't think infected meat will work since Terminus ate Bob's infected leg and they didn't suffer anything because they cooked it and I don't think Saviors eat raw pig. 

[CletusMusashi]

I would assume that any scavenger around would have ingested zombies. Dog, possum, pig... they're probably pretty safe unless they eat Daryl.

[CrazyDog]

Wow, I loved this episode. The intro of Ezekiel with Morgan was hilarious as was Carol's honest reaction afterwards. Love Jerry and Richard.

I want to see the redheaded guy again...he was cute.

I'm sure everything will go to hell but this was the little bit of hope the season needed. I'll enjoy the polar opposite of this thriving community vs Rick's group. And the people here don't see as unaware of reality as the Alexandrians did.

It's nice to see a community actually growing food and having livestock.

Hopefully that tainted meat leads to...something.

Long live the King and Shiva.

Edited October 31, 2016 by CrazyDog

[Dobian]

I can say that I'm done with Carol.  There are things to like about her, but starting a couple of seasons ago the things I dislike about her just started to mount.  Sure she's a badass and a great survivalist, but her personality just bugs the hell out of me.  And I'm tired of this revolving theme every year about her being part of the group, alienating herself from the group, rejoining the group, getting kicked out of the group, joining the group again, leaving the group again.  Enough already, just stay gone.

I really like Ezekiel.  That tiger of his though needs a lot of meat, and considering how food - and especially meat - isn't exactly abundant, keeping that cat is a little bit too expensive.

[CletusMusashi]

I like Zeke, I like the tiger, I don't even mind Karate Kid 4. I suspect all three will be dead soon, of course.

Two things I do not like, however, are

1. The very, very annoying choir, and

2. Ezekiel digging through the trash looking for John Travolta's old "Battlefield Earth" wig.

[Anela]

I'm watching, because I read that it was a good episode (I read the other thread, and friends have talked about it). 

It's so nice to have a nice group. I like these people, so I kind of want to stop watching right now - while they're still alive. Something has to happen to them, because a thriving community just isn't allowed. 

I'd forgotten that Morgan and Carol knew about them (of course they did), and that Carol had taken out several of them by herself. (The Saviors.)

I suppose they just threatened the one guy's life. Please tell me that the kid doesn't get the bat, down the line. 

Edited October 31, 2016 by Anela

[Muffyn]

2 hours ago, MattDuffysCat said:

I was totally eating pomegranate seeds while King Ezekiel waxed philosophical about pomegranates.

So was I.  I'm afraid there's going to be a run on pomegranates tomorrow.  

1 hour ago, CletusMusashi said:

I like Zeke, I like the tiger, I don't even mind Karate Kid 4. I suspect all three will be dead soon, of course.

Two things I do not like, however, are

1. The very, very annoying choir, and

2. Ezekiel digging through the trash looking for John Travolta's old "Battlefield Earth" wig.

We can get a CGI tiger.  We can get zombies in all stages of decomposing.  But we can't get one damn decent wig on this show?  What the hell, hair and makeup people?  Is it that hard to make a wig? 

[placate]

Better than the premiere.  This episode didn't insult my intelligence and the poor piggies reminded me of when my dad took me to visit his friend's pig farm and I didn't eat meat for a year (More disgusting than seeing the schooled special effect zombies.  Talking Dead kills the magic.)  The choir sounded nice so I'm not too bummed out by that.  It wasn't Beth singing so I'm relieved. 

Can someone explain to me why people just start shipping characters for no reason?  I suspect this is something I've never understood.  Darol was always popular but why ship Carol with only Morgan or Ezekiel?  Eugene has been dateless forever and Daryl seems asexual, can't a mullet get any love?

[GreyBunny]

Jeez, Carol...after an abusive husband, a crazy CDC lab tech who wants to incinerate everyone, a murderous nutcase who keeps heads of dead people in fish tanks, rape cops, a wolf cult, hipster cannibals, and motherfucking Negan, all during a zombie apocalypse, what weirds you out is some guy with a pet tiger playing SCA who has a happy, functioning community?  And on top of that, after they're nice to you, you steal from them?  Pffft.  She can stay in her little mope house. 

Love Ezekiel, love Shiva, really love that he's punking the Saviors by giving them zombie-fed pigs.  It probably won't amount to anything but I bet it's one small bit of internal satisfaction.  I wonder what they do to the fruits and veggies (I'd inject them with ipecac or arsenic).

It's fruit time.

Edited October 31, 2016 by GreyBunny

[Happy Harpy]

No Negan = huge, huge plus.

Best news: If Ezekiel's people knew, they'd want to fight back. It gave me hope that while we see people under Voldemort Negan's thumb, this season will (quickly) be about resistance.

I, too, liked the Kingdom's people more than the Alexandrians and I do remember the names I heard (not only because of Ben and Jerry). I imagined that Ben and Carl could become friends. Can we have both a Richard and a Rick on the same show? He was my favorite and is certainly the go-to person if anyone wants to propose some let's annihilate the Saviors campaign (first Negan, then Long Haired Wanker, please!).  I know that some of those new characters are doomed and I already regret it.

Was Ben's father really killed by Walkers? I might be way off base, but I have an inkling that Lucille might be responsible instead.

Strangely, Ezekiel worked for me. The acting explained the OTT-ness of the character when he's in his King's persona. He's perceptive and smart for now, which I liked. He's more grounded and less volatile than Jesus, for example (love Jesus but like Daryl, he's no leader imo). Knowing how whipped most of the Hilltop's people are, I feel that he made the right choice and also, somewhere, that he's bidding his time.

As I expected, Morgan is way better in this environment. Both Carol and Morgan were on a soul-searching trajectory and I like the parallel between them. Morgan was alone for a long time, and he's finding a purpose through a community. Carol felt smothered in her community, so she's looking for a purpose at the periphery. I'm not tired of her Betty Crocker act. I really loved how the similarities between Ezekiel and her were drawn, I had no problem to accept their immediate rapport and they really clicked together for me.

Not looking forward to next week, though. I think I might wait for a recap before watching (or not).

[Wryly]

I loved the shit out of this episode. Loved. It. Turned my outlook for the show's future around. My responses evolved from "Wtf kind of stupid sideshow is this?" to "Interesting" to "You know what? I like this Ezekiel guy. I want everyone from Rick's group to meet him. I am seriously looking forward to that. Whoa. I actually have something good to look forward to in this painscape of anxiety, despair, and violence? What a breath of fresh air."

When Carol left the Kingdom, I instinctively thought she'd be going back to Alexandria. Just habit on my brain's part. Then I remembered. "Oh. Right. She abandoned Alexandria to have her completely unwelcome 'crisis of badassery.' She doesn't want the group anymore. Well... fine! I never loved you either! I was pretending! Rick's group will do just fine without you! I mean... everyone was basically mind raped having to watch Glenn and Abraham reduced to viscera in front of them... Rick was completely psychologically broken... Maggie was miscarrying... Daryl is captured and about to be Gitmo'd... but you just have your STUPID FREAKING CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT, CAROL. Everyone is JUST FINE! What could you do, anyway? I mean, it's not like you've ever swooped in and miraculously saved everyone from impending d... OH WAIT. That's right. You're basically the Batman of The Walking Dead, and you abandoned Gotham! The Dark Knight is squatting in some pointless cottage in Neither Here Nor There Land! Yeah you stack your stupid little logs in your stupid little fireplace, Carol!"

[Ms Lark]

I liked this episode. It was a comfort to return to Original Flavor ZA WD. I like Ezekiel and the new folks. I liked the choir and the sanity. Carol has her issues, but I'm happy to see her and Morgan again. I hate that they're being extorted by Negan and I'm sure it won't end well. I didn't watch until I knew it was safe to go back in the water, but next week and going forward I make no promises. Zombies I can deal with, but can't handle Negan and Lucille and his band of sadists.

[Gulftastic]

I like that they addressed how plain daft Ezekiel and his kitty are right away. It made sense, and the guy playing Ezekiel was very good.

Carol is a favourite, but also a pain in the arse. Is she going to live by herself now in the Little House On The Graveyard? Is she going to be some kind of outlet for Ezekiel when he wants to drop the 'King' persona and just talk?

I liked seeing a more reasonable member of Negan's crew. He was still a bit evil, but didn't seem to be taking as much pleasure in it as others we have seen from that group.

[candall]

1 hour ago, Wryly said:

[...]

When Carol left the Kingdom, I instinctively thought she'd be going back to Alexandria. Just habit on my brain's part. Then I remembered. "Oh. Right. She abandoned Alexandria to have her completely unwelcome 'crisis of badassery.' She doesn't want the group anymore. Well... fine! I never loved you either! I was pretending! Rick's group will do just fine without you! I mean... everyone was basically mind raped having to watch Glenn and Abraham reduced to viscera in front of them... Rick was completely psychologically broken... Maggie was miscarrying... Daryl is captured and about to be Gitmo'd... but you just have your STUPID FREAKING CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT, CAROL. Everyone is JUST FINE! What could you do, anyway? I mean, it's not like you've ever swooped in and miraculously saved everyone from impending d... OH WAIT. That's right. You're basically the Batman of The Walking Dead, and you abandoned Gotham! The Dark Knight is squatting in some pointless cottage in Neither Here Nor There Land! Yeah you stack your stupid little logs in your stupid little fireplace, Carol!"

Hee, this is so funny; @Wryly gives Carol what my father used to call an "Attitude Talk."

 

I'm going to put up with Pontificatin' Pete's Lucille for the sake of silky smooth Ezekiel & Shiva the diretiger.  But I'm going to be seriously pissed if the writers are so enthralled with Negan, they lovingly draw out his reign of intimidation and torture like we're all eager to spend Sunday nights watching Death From A Thousand Cuts.

I guess it wouldn't be TWD if they spent much time in a thriving harmonic community where individual quirks are supported--and the king himself will pay you a nice Welcome Wagon visit when you move in next door. 

But I really hope there will at least be a decent balance between the two communities this season.

Edited October 31, 2016 by candall

[Miles]

God I love Carol. I also really liked the king. I think the writers are shipping it.

If we can somehow get Michone and maybe Daryl over to the kingdom I would be more then happy if we never saw the original crew again.

Also what do we wanna bet that the young lads dad actually died by Lucille and not by walker?

6 hours ago, Dobian said:

I can say that I'm done with Carol.  There are things to like about her, but starting a couple of seasons ago the things I dislike about her just started to mount.  Sure she's a badass and a great survivalist, but her personality just bugs the hell out of me.  And I'm tired of this revolving theme every year about her being part of the group, alienating herself from the group, rejoining the group, getting kicked out of the group, joining the group again, leaving the group again.  Enough already, just stay gone.

As I said above, I still love her, but I think that's more due to what the actress is doing. It's certainly not the writing. That has been consistantly shitty. The writers let Carol do completely out of character things just to alienate her from the group again and again.

It made no sense for her to kill the sick people who were already in quarantine and it makes no sense for her to suddenly be unable to kill, when she used to be a killing machine. The later could have worked if there had been a massive trigger and some kind of an arc, but that wasn't there.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Miles

[Eyes High]

Quote

Everyone is JUST FINE! What could you do, anyway? I mean, it's not like you've ever swooped in and miraculously saved everyone from impending d... OH WAIT. That's right. That's right. You're basically the Batman of The Walking Dead, and you abandoned Gotham!

Carol's baggage has slowly been catching up with her and she doubts herself much more than she did in her Rambo Carol days. I don't think she could pull off the equivalent of her miraculous Terminus rescue now. Too much has happened. She has stopped pretending she's the untouchable Terminator who can kill and shrug it off, or acting as if she enjoys killing. Look at her attack on the Wolves in early Season 6--cool, swift, and efficient--compared to her tearfully begging the Saviours to let her go peacefully before reluctantly killing them in late Season 6 (sloppy, hesitant, and anguished). She can't do what she once did. That's not great news for Team Rick, of course, who has benefited from Terminator Carol in the past, but it would be unfair of them to expect Carol to save them from the foreseeable consequences of their shitty decisions when it mentally destroys her. Whatever debt Carol supposedly owes, either to Team Rick or to Alexandria, she paid it off long ago. She's entitled to put her mental health first, and Rick certainly won't; his cluelessness made itself clear when he bragged to Morgan about Carol killing the Saviours. Instead of framing this as Carol abandoning Team Rick in their hour of need for selfish reasons, which is frankly pretty problematic (like how dare she have needs of her own and act to safeguard her mental health, the fucking nerve of that woman!), how about framing this as Team Rick using Carol as a crutch to save them or at least insulate them from their own stupidity (Terminus, Wolves attack, helping Maggie escape), no matter what it does to her? Team Rick needs to start making better decisions so that they don't need Carol to save them in the first place. Rick shoved his hand into a tiger's mouth; it's hardly fair to blame Carol when she wasn't around to yank it out before it got bitten off.

I choose to believe that Ezekiel is trying to gain Carol's trust because he wants someone crafty and cunning like Carol in his inner circle, not because he's trying to tap that.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Eyes High

[bosawks]

In the Zombie Apocalypse if you have a pet tiger you can call yourself whatever you want!

In the real world you'd probably better call your insurance broker for some kick ass insurance........

[ghoulina]

Well, I hate being late to the party, but the episode thread was locked last night and I finally gave up and went to bed. 

But...I liked the episode! What a fun, funny, lighthearted, but serious in a good way, episode after the brutality of last week. 

I really really like Ezekial. And I wasn't expecting that at all. But he had me at "pitch kettled" and I'm now trying to find a way to work that into my daily vocabulary. Seriously, you've got this Rastafarian Renaissance man parading around with a tiger and it's so completely ridiculous, but at the same time awesome. 

And, of course, Carol puts on her little housewife persona, but as soon as she and Morgan are alone, she's all, "da fuq?" I loved the scene when the choir is singing (a favorite song of mine! but I prefer the Mike Ness cover.) and Carol is scooting around stealing knives and whatnot. Classic Carol! 

But I really like the Kingdom. I'd stay there in a heartbeat. I don't see the harm in a little theatrics, because it's not complete denial of the situation. But it's a way to cope with it. I think Ezekial runs things very well. And as much as I'll never stop loving Rick Grimes, there's a lot to be said for the way Ezekial handles the Negan situation. He's smart. I'm sure he WANTS to fight, but he knows the cost. So he keeps it to a core group, gives them tainted pigs, and moves on with his life. He obviously chose Morgan as a confident early on, because he could sense Morgan was not rash and would be able to remain calm if things went sideways. 

Carol is another issue. As much as I've loved Carol for the past several seasons, I'm not sure what they're doing with her character. I haven't been ever since she tussled with Morgan. So she didn't want to kill anymore, she almost seemed to want to die. But her self preservation instincts kept kicking in. Now she's hallucinating who the walkers were before. She's burying them and not burning them. Is this Lizzie 2.0? I get that Carol has been through a lot and she's struggling with who she is, but some of the crap they're throwing her way seems really out of character. 

I do think Ezekial will be really good for her. I loved that he was onto her from minute one (she was a bit OTT about it), and chose to let down HIS persona for her as well. I don't hardly ever ship people, but I think this could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship, if anything. 

The only thing that felt a bit off to me was Shiva. Sure, it's cool. But stuff that goes over well in a comic book setting isn't always going to work onscreen. It's not going to ruin anything by any means, but I find it a bit much. I'm just glad to know they're not using a real cat. 

[CletusMusashi]

Rick and Friends should just sneak the hell back to Georgia. Safer for them, safer for the KIngdom.

Daryl will eventually escape, kill Dwight, and steal his bike and crossbow back.

The one who needs to discover The Kingdom is Eugene, just so he can mass-produce some bullets and bombs for them.

Plus, if he tries to become the new dorky comedy relief guy, we can watch his emerging rivalry with the competition:

"Hello.. new man."

"Hello... Jerry."

[Christi]

Before Carol hooks up with Daryl, Zekeor even the tiger, she needs some hair dye...stat.

She has a young looking face, but with that hairstyle and color she looks like their mom.on..maybe not the tiger.

Does she have scissors to keep up with this very unfortunate do? Seems like hair hair grew back from bald in a hot minute...

I know, I know she likes to pretent to be the soccer grandmom...but couldnt she be a soccer mom instead?

Anyhoo, Daryl seemed much more interested in the blonde teen that he taught to drink.

Guess your type can change tho, since Rick's previos gals were uber feminine, while Mich seemed more like a BFF...partner in crime...

Yeah..Im that shallow..

Ine a side note my favorite animals are hotses, dogs and pigs...Jesus Dead seies...thats for this :/

[Haleth]

What a great respite from the horrors of last week!  Ezekiel is wonderful, I loved, loved finding out beneath that grandiose facade he is a kind, thoughtful, normal man (tiger notwithstanding) trying to do some good.  I was happy he came out to Carol, having not been fooled by her "little ol' me" routine.  And on a shallow note, he was damn sexy, slouching there in the doorway with his tiger and a pomegranate.  

9 hours ago, candall said:

Hmm, much different tone over here than in the Live Chat thread (where it was enjoyed by nearly all.)  Well, here's my final Live Chat post anyway:.

Yes!  It was a party and much needed after a horrible football game.  (On the way home from which we passed a semi full of piggies. :(  )

 

7 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

Zeke: Contractions? You know I do not use such things. A king must always speak in complete words.

Thanks for the first big laugh of the day, Cletus.  

7 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

Dog, possum, pig... they're probably pretty safe unless they eat Daryl.

And the second.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Haleth

[luna1122]

My first reaction to the Kingdom would be to run away screaming. The name, at first, seemed to harken to something religious, and then King Ezekiel, however cool he looks, appeared batshit crazy.

But by the end of the episode, I completely love him. I get him. I'd live in the Kingdom, happily. Add a big gorgeous tiger and I'm all in. By the time Ezekiel was explaining his past to Carol and said that Shiva was the only thing left from his previous life that he'd loved, I was toast.

It's Carol I'm kind of tired of. Oh, I'm a lone wolf, have to leave, whatever. Go. I no longer care. And she is undeserving of Sexy-Casual King Ezekiel leaning against her door bearing, um, fruit. I like Melissa McBride, but Carol has approximately zero sex appeal.

I too would be delighted with cobbler for every meal.

[Mu Shu]

9 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

For the first time ever, I had to turn this off. I thought I had accidentally ingested hallucinatory drugs as I watched Carol’s trip and then Morgan and his protegee doing the Karate Kid Stork or whatever, to the strains of an a cappela Bob Dylan’s “Don’t Think Twice.”

People were scornful of Phillp calling himself “Governor,” but here we have someone who seems to be delusional and maybe even insane who crowned himself “King” (wearing one of the worst wigs I’ve ever seen - the front of which reminds me of an afghan I crocheted some years ago)  and no one bats an eye. I really need to know where all the CGI meat comes from to feed what appears to be a 700lb CGI Bengal tiger. The tiger, however, looked good and is about the only moment I enjoyed.

Carol hasn’t eaten for days and turns down a pomegranate. You could have taken the apple, Carol. Personally, if she wants to run off, who cares? At this point I say “Good riddance.’'  And it’s hardly Morgan’s place to tell her he can’t let her go. Who is he? Her guardian, father... ? Go back and play with your stick, Morgan.

This was so comic book and cringey.   Fuck it, I would rather eat possum than listen to this delusional weirdo and his paper tiger.   Once you need CGI to create a character (or tiger), it's time to veer from the storyline. 

Never mind the raw meat needed to feed the tiger.  How do they feed all those horses?    They can't be that plump on grass alone, and how would they be able to turn them to pasture when there seem to be plenty of walkers around to attack them?   These people need bikes, or solar powered golf carts.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Mu Shu

[ghoulina]

18 minutes ago, Christi said:

Before Carol hooks up with Daryl, Zekeor even the tiger, she needs some hair dye...stat.

She has a young looking face, but with that hairstyle and color she looks like their mom.on..maybe not the tiger.

Does she have scissors to keep up with this very unfortunate do? Seems like hair hair grew back from bald in a hot minute...

I know, I know she likes to pretent to be the soccer grandmom...but couldnt she be a soccer mom instead?

Carol doesn't look anything like a grandmom to me, grey hair or no grey hair. Melissa McBride is stunning and I actually appreciate that she doesn't feel the need to try and color her grey. Too many women in Hollywood are trying to fight aging, to the extreme that they all end up looking like plastic, blowup dolls. Some people grey earlier than others, but it's quite obvious (to me) that she's not some old lady in her 70s. I know a lot of women appreciate having a more "mature" woman that they can relate to on the show. 

Look at Daryl - he dyes his hair and it looks completely ridiculous. 

7 hours ago, ShadowSixx said:

I don't like that Negan now has three groups under his thumb being Hilltop, ASZ, and the Kingdom. Negan is the only getting anything out of the deal while the others will face death if they don't deliver the food and whatever else. Now is the time for Ezekiel, Rick, & Jesus to get their groups together and take out Negan. 

Oh yea, that's exactly where I see this going. Negan is going to bring himself down. He'll end up with too many "good" groups producing for him, and once they all realize it - sorry, Saviors. 

 

7 hours ago, ShadowSixx said:

I do like that Richard sent them infected pigs but I don't think infected meat will work since Terminus ate Bob's infected leg and they didn't suffer anything because they cooked it and I don't think Saviors eat raw pig. 

Yea, it's more like a disgruntled cook spitting in your food than any kind of poisoning. Still funny. 

 

4 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

I, too, liked the Kingdom's people more than the Alexandrians and I do remember the names I heard (not only because of Ben and Jerry). I imagined that Ben and Carl could become friends.

Ahh, Ben and Jerry, I didn't even catch that. I'm horrible with names. Is Ben the blonde kid that Morgan was mentoring? I really liked what little we saw of him, so of course he'll probably die. 

[ghoulina]

3 minutes ago, Mu Shu said:

People were scornful of Phillp calling himself “Governor,” but here we have someone who seems to be delusional and maybe even insane who crowned himself “King” (wearing one of the worst wigs I’ve ever seen - the front of which reminds me of an afghan I crocheted some years ago)  and no one bats an eye.

I just don't see the two as being similar. For one, different motivations. I think Ezekial truly has a heart for helping people. He was a zookeeper. He loved animals. He now wants to truly help this group of people. I think he just showed up with a tiger and things kind of took on a life of their own, and he went with it. The Governor never cared about HIS people. HE was the deluded one. He needed to keep a semblance of "normal", so he could pretend his little girl was still okay and everything was going to be alright. Look how quick he was to sacrifice them all. It was all about him. Ezekial, OTOH, seems to really care about his people. 

Also, Khary Payton OWNS his scenes. His character, by rights, should be 1000% more ridiculous, but it's not. He just works. Morrisey was always too OTT and cheesy as the Governor, IMO. 

[RustbeltWriter]

I enjoyed this episode more than any other over the past few years. The biggest reason is that we've finally met someone someone in the ZA who isn't a psycho, a grouch or an asshole. If Ezekiel wants to act the part of a king while leading the most successful community we've seen yet and keeping people safe then he can wear a crown for all I care. Just seeing someone who wants to be a good guy in a world of Genghis Khan wannabes is refreshing. I get that there would be guys like Negan or those two morons from the bar back in season 2 if society fell but there would also be people who want to rebuild and hang on to the best part of what society was. It's good to see them represented.

[nodorothyparker]

As much as I hated hated hated last week, that's how much I liked this one.

After various petty tyrants and cannibal cults and whole towns of delusionals bitching about the lack of pasta makers, the mere fact that these people call their settlement The Kingdom would be enough by itself to make me wonder just what bit of crazy we had wandered into this time.  Throw in a guy calling himself their king who just happens to have a pet tiger on a chain and speaks like a Ren Faire bit player while the general population apparently has nothing more important to do than practice Bob Dylan numbers a cappella?  Yeah, I'd be waiting for the other crazy shoe to drop too if I wasn't already backing away slowly.  I loved Carol's initial incredulous reaction to it as well as Morgan trying gamely to go along with it before just agreeing that "yeah, it's pretty weird." But at least they're not continually belittling my stick fighting and patting me on the head before launching doomed murder sprees and bragging about their own badassery.   

I loved even more Ezekiel keeping up his full bombastic crazy before just dropping the act with "can't bullshit a bullshitter" and acknowledging that he knows full well how ridiculous it all looks, but whaddaya gonna do if it keeps everything running?  And it apparently is working if he's found a way to coexist with Negan and the Monologuing Asshole Gang without getting his people killed for the time being.  By the way, that's how you deliver a monologue spelling out your backstory.  

Wading into the shallow end, while I'm not at all a fan of the wig, Ezekiel leaning in Carol's doorway for a drop-in whatever was damn fine.

[Tony]

Strangely, the part that annoyed me the most in this episode was that kid that didn't want to eat his veggies and trying to run off to see the movies/stay up late to read.

There's something about insulated children oblivious to the hardships around them that just drive me nuts.

[nodorothyparker]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Carol's baggage has slowly been catching up with her and she doubts herself much more than she did in her Rambo Carol days. I don't think she could pull off the equivalent of her miraculous Terminus rescue now. Too much has happened. She has stopped pretending she's the untouchable Terminator who can kill and shrug it off, or acting as if she enjoys killing. Look at her attack on the Wolves in early Season 6--cool, swift, and efficient--compared to her tearfully begging the Saviours to let her go peacefully before reluctantly killing them in late Season 6 (sloppy, hesitant, and anguished). She can't do what she once did. That's not great news for Team Rick, of course, who has benefited from Terminator Carol in the past, but it would be unfair of them to expect Carol to save them from the foreseeable consequences of their shitty decisions when it mentally destroys her. Whatever debt Carol supposedly owes, either to Team Rick or to Alexandria, she paid it off long ago. She's entitled to put her mental health first, and Rick certainly won't; his cluelessness made itself clear when he bragged to Morgan about Carol killing the Saviours. Instead of framing this as Carol abandoning Team Rick in their hour of need for selfish reasons, which is frankly pretty problematic (like how dare she have needs of her own and act to safeguard her mental health, the fucking nerve of that woman!), how about framing this as Team Rick using Carol as a crutch to save them or at least insulate them from their own stupidity (Terminus, Wolves attack, helping Maggie escape), no matter what it does to her? Team Rick needs to start making better decisions so that they don't need Carol to save them in the first place. Rick shoved his hand into a tiger's mouth; it's hardly fair to blame Carol when she wasn't around to yank it out before it got bitten off.

I choose to believe that Ezekiel is trying to gain Carol's trust because he wants someone crafty and cunning like Carol in his inner circle, not because he's trying to tap that.

This is pretty much my read too.  It helps me a lot to makes sense of her story when I can remember that everything that happened from the fall of the prison at the midpoint of season 4 until Alexandria was overrun at the halfway point of 6 occurred only over a month or so.  There was so much awful that happened and they had to keep moving and fighting and bracing for the next Very Bad Thing that it became very easy to compartmentalize and not think or feel too much about it.  But then we get that unspecified break of time between fighting off the zombie horde and wacky fun hijinks time with Jesus where she did have time to live a relatively normal life again with nothing more pressing than figuring out how to make beet and acorn cookies.  She did have time to think about what she had done and what it had cost her and realize that she had come to care about the ASZhats and they'd died anyway.  Then of course Rick immediately rolls up and tells her it's time to put on the murdering coat again but this time she can't shut it all off.  She also can't go back to being early seasons Carol standing by wringing her hands while other people do the killing for her, so she sees her only choice is to remove herself from it entirely.

I think it would have helped a lot had it been made clearer that that break in time happened or we saw other characters feeling it too.  But the show has mostly left the RV gang completely static on the subject beyond Glenn's "we were almost out there too long" when they first got to Alexandria or in Rick's case, made him ridiculously cocky strutting around like he thinks he's the king of the forest.  I get they had to do that to make Negan's breaking of Rick more dramatic, but it mostly left me feeling like neither I nor the show had any idea who most of the RV gang are as characters beyond what they need them to be week to week or why I should even care.

Even with all the weirdness of the Kingdom, there was something disarmingly sweet and comfortable about it.  That has to be terrifying to someone who's deliberately trying to close herself off to not hurt anymore.  Just as in the case of Morgan, it has to also be terrifying that Ezekiel very easily sees her and won't let her just hide.

Edited October 31, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[MV007]

All I could think about during this episode is I wish it was Carol who got the bat instead of Glen.  

[GodsBeloved]

10 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

And should I assume right now, Rick will arrive at some point and all hell is going to break loose?

No!!!!! Get thee behind me Satan, I mean Rick. Stay away, far away from The Kingdom!

[GodsBeloved]

9 hours ago, nvwalker said:

If Aaron had not found Rick's group, where would they be now?  Better off?  Or overwhelmed by the herds?  it didn't seem that they were being that self sufficient in Alexandria, hence the lawns versus what should have been gardens and fruit trees, more layers of barbed wire fencing and trenches outside, etc. (just what I think I would be doing for a safer encampment).  So it is a double edge sword, they haven't brought good luck but maybe they kept worse things from happening? 

I am so glad The Kingdom is self sufficient so Rick and crew can't walk up in there with the these idiots need us and if they don't get in line we take over attitude.

[GodsBeloved]

8 hours ago, Dobian said:

I really like Ezekiel.  That tiger of his though needs a lot of meat, and considering how food - and especially meat - isn't exactly abundant, keeping that cat is a little bit too expensive.

I love that Ezekiel did acknowledge that keeping Shiva wasn't practical and that she eats as much as 10 people.

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, ghoulina said:

I just don't see the two as being similar. For one, different motivations. I think Ezekial truly has a heart for helping people. He was a zookeeper. He loved animals. He now wants to truly help this group of people. I think he just showed up with a tiger and things kind of took on a life of their own, and he went with it. The Governor never cared about HIS people. HE was the deluded one. He needed to keep a semblance of "normal", so he could pretend his little girl was still okay and everything was going to be alright. Look how quick he was to sacrifice them all. It was all about him. Ezekial, OTOH, seems to really care about his people. 

Also, Khary Payton OWNS his scenes. His character, by rights, should be 1000% more ridiculous, but it's not. He just works. Morrisey was always too OTT and cheesy as the Governor, IMO. 

I agree with that, especially the part that he does care. It's just that Ezekial the king is so cartoonish, sitting on his throne on a stage in that little theatre with a huge cgi tiger on a chain. It's just what I've said before - this over-the-top scenarios, villains, etc. are just fine in a comic book, but comic books just can't always translate into live action without looking absurd. The same goes for Negan and his gang, standing around in the forest whistling for who knows how many hours.

Quote

Carol doesn't look anything like a grandmom to me, grey hair or no grey hair. Melissa McBride is stunning and I actually appreciate that she doesn't feel the need to try and color her grey. Too many women in Hollywood are trying to fight aging, to the extreme that they all end up looking like plastic, blowup dolls.

Agree with that too and she has that kind of pretty, silvery grey hair that looks lovely. Dyed hair often is so harsh and aging.

[NorthstarATL]

15 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

I love that Ezekiel did acknowledge that keeping Shiva wasn't practical and that she eats as much as 10 people.

Thankfully he didn't say she eats as MANY as 10 people, because that would be horrifying!

[Ohwell]

I haven't read the comics, but already Ezekial is getting on my nerves with this "kingdom" shit and that awful wig of dreadlocks.  But the choir singing was what sent me over the edge.  I'd rather see Negan and his crew.

[Ocean Chick]

Okay - Zeke can stay.  I actually like him, despite the whole OTTness of it.  But the explanation works, and if that's what it takes for the people to feel safe, I'm happy for him to do it.  I love that he seems to like Carol and Morgan, and can break character with them and just be himself.  I'm sure he needs that bit of reality once in a while.  And maybe we'll be lucky and Carol will offer to cut his hair... shave him "dolphin smoove".  Heh. 

Everyone else has had a breakdown at some point, it seems - Rick at the prison, Michonne when we first saw her on her walk-about with her homie walkers, Sasha at ASZ, Morgan after Duane died - so why not Carol?  She's just as entitled as the others. 

It'll be interesting to see how Morgan evolves now that he realizes that you can't not kill in this new world.  And I like Ben and his brother.

I'll bet Jerry eats about as much as that Tiger, King E.  LOL

[ghoulina]

3 minutes ago, Ocean Chick said:

Everyone else has had a breakdown at some point, it seems - Rick at the prison, Michonne when we first saw her on her walk-about with her homie walkers, Sasha at ASZ, Morgan after Duane died - so why not Carol?  She's just as entitled as the others. 

I agree, she deserves it. I just don't like it. Maybe the writers don't write breakdowns well? The only one of those that I didn't have an issue with was Michonne's. Probably because she seemed to snap out of it fairly quickly. As much as I love Rick, I was ready to kill him myself during the ghost Lori phase. And Sasha - I just don't feel like they'd fleshed her character out enough for me to care. 

There's just something about how she's coming off that feels petulant, indulgent, and just not in character. 

[Primetimer]

You might get tonal whiplash in this departure from the season premiere's misery parade.

View the full article

[luna1122]

22 minutes ago, Ocean Chick said:

 And maybe we'll be lucky and Carol will offer to cut his hair... shave him "dolphin smoove".  Heh. 

 

I'll bet Jerry eats about as much as that Tiger, King E.  LOL

Ew, no to the dophin smoove. The actor is attractive enuf but I was immediately less compelled by him with no hair and a bushy beard on TD. I dig the dreads.

I LOVE jerry!

[Mu Shu]

Well, this begs a question.  Negan is brutal, but practical.  Ezekiel is...whatever the fuck that was supposed to be.   The question is, when the Turks start invading Walachia, do you want Jimmy Carter or Vlad Dracula on your team?

Fuck this nonsense for making me think Negan may be a better deal.   Really, couldn't they make Ezekials animal companion a wolf?   That would be more palatable, and they could have used a wolf hybrid that was actually living for filming.   What intelligent person wants to be led so badly they choose a Ren Faire reject with a fucking Tiger?   Nah, you would play Negans game until you could just head west to less populated areas.  

[Boofish]

I firmly believe The Hilltop has no idea the Saviors has the Kingdom producing for them as well and vice versa. Now had Rick's group stayed out of the mix, I think Negan would still be able to rule over them for obvious reasons.

Seems like the majority of the Kingdom is completely oblivious to the deal. These people are singing Bob Dylan and enjoying pomegranates; I have a feeling I could get my great nieces and nephews together and we would be tougher them.  They don't want any trouble. Take your pigs and go

The Hilltop don't even have bullets and their leader is only interested in his saving his own skin. (Zero respect for anyone still wearing a suit during the ZA)

Alexandria is full of weak people and cowards.

Enter the Destructobots! Rick and his group may be feral; they might be the plaque; they smell like disappointment, no hope and expired mustard but one thing they do not do is suffer bullies and fools gladly. This will be the game changer for all 3 groups.  Rick may feel temporarily defeated but it won't last long. Negan made the mistake of picking on the one kid in class not afraid to stand up to the bully win or lose.

[Artsda]

Wow tiger! Carol's reaction was hilarious.

I liked the Kingdom, so I hope Rick never finds it. He destroys every town he gets near.

[AngelaHunter]

Quote

I'll bet Jerry eats about as much as that Tiger, King E.  LOL

It should make Negan say, "Just a fuckin' minute here. He's obese and I'm skinny. That shit doesn't fly. Gimme more of your stuff and stop holding out."

I'm still pondering feeding that tiger. They must be feeding it some of the pigs they capture, right? Wouldn't the serfs of the Kingdom wonder why the tiger is getting whole pigs and they go without? Do they have their own pigs? I saw only goats and I'm sure people would notice if one of them disappeared every week or so. If it's being fed in secret, does no one in the whole town ever ask what it eats - since it eats enough to feed 10 people - and wonder why they never see it eating? As for the horses, I can buy that they have a field to grow hay. They must, because they can't put the horses out to graze for fear of zombies eating them.

Why did the King immediately tell Morgan and Carol all the secrets of the Kingdom - including the tithing to Negan and his own"bullshit" act -  but only a few townspeople know? Does he instantly tell every new person what's really going on, re: The Saviors and his OTT act? If he does, why wouldn't many more of them know, since they must have been new at one time?

Why is the choir singing that Bob Dylan song? Wouldn't the Stones' "You Can't Always Get What you Want" be more fitting? I'm so confused.

[GodsBeloved]

16 minutes ago, Boofish said:

 They don't want any trouble. Take your pigs and go

 

Ezekiel did say if he told his group about the Saviors they would want to fight so it sounds like they would resist and not cower, that there are people outside of Rick's group who are willing to stand up to bullies.

Edited October 31, 2016 by GodsBeloved

[Rachel RSL]

What intelligent person wants to be led so badly they choose a Ren Faire reject with a fucking Tiger?

It's the Zombie Apocalypse and the Kingdom is a group of peaceful people who have food, water, shelter, medicine, and freaking cobbler. COBBLER! What intelligent person would choose to leave? If I were Morgan, I'd be all "Rick who?".

Edited October 31, 2016 by Rachel RSL

[Boofish]

5 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

Ezekiel did say if he told his group about the Saviors they would want to fight so it sounds like they would resist and not cower.

Which is code for "we don't want any trouble; take your pigs and go" LOL

[GodsBeloved]

2 minutes ago, Boofish said:

Which is code for "we don't want any trouble; take your pigs and go" LOL

Sure Ezekiel is making that choice for the group however he isn't telling them because according to him they won't agree with the king about cowering.

[ShadowSixx]

I do agree about Ezekiel immediately telling Carol & Morgan about the inner goings of the Kingdom isn't smart. It's like members of Rick's group wear a "Trust Me" sign because Jesus told Rick everything about Hilltop. When Aaron met the group he didn't tell them everything about ASZ. He told them that they'll get interviewed and see where they'll fit and then after they were told things about ASZ. For Aaron he at least scouted them out before inviting them to see if they're trustworthy. Ezekiel shouldn't have been so quick to tell them. Even Benjamin (finally know the kid's name lol) was telling Morgan things.

Now Carol and Daryl wanna keep up their stupid lone wolf schtick which is causing them to be a liability to the group and they're not seeing that. Since they want to keep running off Rick and the rest of the group should be like "fuck it" let them leave. He should treat them how he treated Michonne when he first met her, just don't trust them anymore and how they treated Andrea when she visited the prison. They wanna detach themselves from the group because they're suffering internally from all the deaths of close people. Whatever, everyone has lost someone and to this day I still say Maggie suffered the most, she had to watch Hershel get decapitated and Glenn get brutally beaten in front of her and she may have suffered a miscarriage. Maggie isn't closing herself off even though she has every right to. Carol and Daryl can go fuck themselves.

Edited October 31, 2016 by ShadowSixx

[Ohwell]

I'd rather be part of Negan's harem than with this Galavant fool in a bad dread wig.  Can he even fight?