S01.E04: The Enemy

[formerlyfreedom]

Kirkman learns who is behind the attack and needs to grapple not only with the prospect of war, but brewing domestic troubles as well. Kirkman taps Emily to monitor the domestic situation, while Alex may be in for more than she bargains for when she seeks out help from Hookstraten.

 

[AimingforYoko]

Damn, Kirkman got his Bauer on. 

I know there is a political divide in this country, but I find it hard to believe any governor would take advantage of a national tragedy to defy the constitution. Well, almost any governor. Sorry, Maine.

[Biggie B]

MacLeish's wife said she was at the mall with her kids and one of them got separated from her, so she texted her husband repeatedly during the State of the Union, while she was freaking out over her daughter's disappearance.

The State of the Union address is held fairly late in the evening. Why would she have been out shopping with her little kids at that hour of the night?

[CleoCaesar]

This Algeria stuff totally seems like a fakeout/misdirection.

This show is slowly losing me. I just don't give a crap about the FBI agent mooning over her dead boyfriend. Or that Kumar is press secretary. This show has failed to describe the sheer magnitude of what happened to the country/the world. It lacks any and all gravitas.

[merylinkid]

Special Advisor naive needs to realize that the President has to make decisions that the Secretary of HUD might not have to make.   Seriously??????   Like Taking!It!Personally! when a spy is killed.

I can kinda believe a governor or two would pull a stunt like Gov. Royce did.    Either out of a power grab or simple fear that things are falling apart and they are going to show the situation is under control.   But they need to stop with the "illegitimate president" crap.   He served at the pleasure of the president.   The president had not actually fired him yet.   Again, if the president had fired him -- he would not have been the designated survivor.   Literally any other cabinet secretary would have been.   The president has some say in who the DS is.   He would not say "fire this guy in the afternoon, so he can be the DS tonight."    They don't need the drama of the "rightful" succession when there are so many other stories here.

They also need to knock it off with the general who just want to bomb the hell out of everything.   Hollywood has a real problem writing military well.   They do know Vietnam is over right?

[portfino]

The Congressman's wife was in Eugene. I assume Oregon.

This is a supremely stupid show. The Senate would be appointed. The press wouldn't be hounding the Press Secretary. (Also, it's easier to be good at the job if you don't take questions.) The governor is a cartoon villain. No one would believe that the HUD Secretary shouldn't be President because he was about to be fired. No President would think for even two seconds about sacrificing an agent to kill someone worse than Bin Laden. The stuff with the Governor of Michigan was ridiculous.

Maybe the General should lead a coup to get rid of Kirkman and his minions.

[janeta]

Ok maybe i missed it--why aren't the governors madly appointing congresspeople? The SOB's and HOB's are intact; if they need chambers they can commandeer space in those Independence Ave federal bldgs. How long are the showrunners planning on keeping their little government without a Congress?

[shapeshifter]

7 minutes ago, Biggie B said:

MacLeish's wife said she was at the mall with her kids and one of them got separated from her, so she texted her husband repeatedly during the State of the Union, while she was freaking out over her daughter's disappearance.

The State of the Union address is held fairly late in the evening. Why would she have been out shopping with her little kids at that hour of the night?

What state is he from? There could be as much as a three hour time difference.

Anyway, I was all set to say, "I called it!" (that MacLeish was innocent but there was an internal conspiracy) but then the FBI agent got the criptic call.

Are criptic calls like that a TV trope?

Edited October 13, 2016 by shapeshifter

[henripootel]

14 hours ago, CleoCaesar said:

It lacks any and all gravitas.

Bingo.  Honestly, you'd almost think this is just an ordinary week, not the most horrific challenge to America in history.  But everyone's got time to moon about, and natter on about little things.  This mistake in tone gives me way too much time to dwell on nitpicking, and speaking of that -

Kirkman didn't think the president would make life or death decisions?  And he actually withheld a bombing raid because it might kill one guy?  One guy who was apparently taken by the enemy and is either dead or being tortured to death as we speak?  We kill our own in time of war all the time, it's acceptable losses.  I find it hard to believe even a new president would hesitate because of this.

What on earth did Royce think was gonna happen when he got on that plane?  Or defied the orders of a sworn-in president?  Never-mind what you think of his legitimacy, idiot, he's got the 101st Airborne on speed dial.  You went on tv and forced his hand - is there any way this doesn't end up with you in Sing-Sing?

Kumar is all upset that, in performance of his political job, in politics, that his new position as CJ Craig might ... carry political overtones?  Did he get his current job off a craigslist ad?  Surely he's familiar with the term 'politics', right?

Does the President of the US have powers of arrest?  I mean he can command people to be arrested, I'm sure, but I honestly don't know if he can do it himself.  There are matters of protocol here, and if my Law and Order law degree has taught me anything, it's that these little matters have a way of looming large during actual court cases.  Seemed like the writers got their law degrees the same way I did. 

The fact that Agent Nikita continues to be driven by her dead boyfriend instead of, you know, professionalism, during a national crisis ... annoys.   Almost as much as her boss who seems to be in charge of the most important investigation in history, but still has time to hold the hand of his favorite agent, who needs it because, I guess, 'chicks are like that'.  Jeez, it's like the show doesn't want me to watch anymore.

Edited October 13, 2016 by henripootel

[Frozendiva]

The cryptic call could be the real thing or a red herring. A bit convenient, though. Was MacLeish a traitor? Did he know that there would be an attack and he left? Were the texts real?  Evidence can be very circumstantial. Where was his wife calling from? Most malls close at 9 pm, except seemingly those in Las Vegas or any large tourist mecca.

The Michigan Governor may have been a bit power-hungry. Whether he liked or disliked Kirkman or that he was a designated survivor and not an 'elected' President, he is still President until an election is called. The nation is very much divided and putting itself back together and his power play was ill-timed.

I agree that the Algeria thing is a misdirection or a distraction.

Having the new Press Secretary being a Muslim is a good move - welcoming diversity, reinforcing that terrorists are extremists of one sort or another. In the end, he got the job because of who he was and genuine respect.

[Lady Calypso]

6 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

What state is he from? There could be as much as a three hour time difference.

Anyway, I was all set to say, "I called it!" (that MacLeish was innocent but there was an internal conspiracy) but then the FBI agent got the criptic call.

Are criptic calls like that a TV trope?

I decided to rewatch the scene where Hannah goes to visit MacLeish and his wife. She said she was at home in Eugene, which is in Oregon, so they are three hours behind. So the wife and kids would have been at the mall around 7pm, so it probably was the truth. I was hoping it was the truth, as it would be nice to have a main character get it wrong for once. 

I don't know what Royce and what Emily were expecting here. That he was just going to have a nice chat with the President after openly defying him, declaring his incompetence, making it clear where he stands, and creating mayhem in Michigan? Really? I'm glad Kirkman got a clue and did the right thing in arresting him. I like Emily, but she needs to not start with the whole "He's changed" deal. No shit, Sherlock. He's the President now. I do like her with Aaron, though. I'm warming to them as a potential couple. 

Congresswoman Kimbel gets progressively more antagonist as the episodes pass. Now Mrs. Kirkman owes her a favour, which clearly is going to not be a good favour. 

General Gibbs finally sees Kirkman being a President, at least. Him initiating orders definitely called for him to be fired. 

I'm glad Seth Wright got Press Secretary, but it was predictable. 

It's still just an ok show for me. 

[zxy556575]

I hate to be all, "the broadcast networks ruin everything" but this show has squandered so much potential. I'm not going to stick with this soap opera/political fantasy hybrid any more but would still watch a 10-ep streaming series with the same premise, only treated seriously.

Edited October 16, 2016 by lordonia

[Danielg342]

Well, I can only guess what Kimble Hookstraten's "favour" is going to be of Mrs. Kirkman, with her friend Governor John Royce now in jail and all.

Still, I quite liked it, and I'm still in this for the long haul. I'm happy that the show gave the First Lady a useful skill to help the President- being an ace at Constitutional law- because now Alex can have a role within the story.

I also liked how Tom Kirkman got some "wins" today, firing his recalcitrant general and arresting Royce. I'm also excited for Seth Wright becoming the Press Secretary- it just seems like such a natural role for Kal Penn.

There are still concerns for me. One, despite Kirkman winning a bit today, Hookstraten still stands head and shoulders above him and is every bit more Presidential than the President is. Now, Virginia Madsen is great as the snake, especially because she's still likeable and warm despite having the cold underbelly, and I understand she's there to show just how much of a "fish out of water" Kirkman is, but this show risks losing its credibility if Kirkman can't eventually elevate to Hookstraten's equal.

Because, if nothing else, why are we watching a show about Kirkman when Hookstraten is so much better as a character?

The other concern is- like I had last week- that Maggie Q still gets lost in the shuffle. This week, if Hannah Wells wasn't in the episode at all, I wouldn't have noticed, and that's a bad thing. I hate to advocate for people to lose their jobs, but I'm beginning to wonder why the role was created in the first place, not just because Wells is being treated as an afterthought but because I think there are enough potential stories and storylines that a regular FBI role doesn't seem to be needed.

Still, I'm in.

Episode Grade: A.

[The Wild Sow]

Quote

The State of the Union address is held fairly late in the evening. Why would she have been out shopping with her little kids at that hour of the night?

What state is he from? There could be as much as a three hour time difference.

Oregon.  3 hours earlier.

The texts were all sent around 10 PM DC time, so 7 PM Pacific time.

[TobinAlbers]

Interesting that the closed captioning said 'You'll learn Peter MacLeish isn't what he seems' when what was said was 'You'll learn more about Peter MacLeish.' The latter is less ominous.

Kinda funny Mykelti Williams is Kirkman's new General. He was a head of CTU in Day 8 of 24 and Jack's boss.

Any Governor watching this show no doubt went 'Oh Hell No!' when Kirkman arrested the Michigan Governor. Like with the Secret Service agents who were probably so done with '24' showing them to be incompetent, heh.

Nice that we got zero First Kids. 

Edited October 13, 2016 by TobinAlbers

[BlackberryJam]

Continuing to find it completely tone deaf. There is absolutely no sense of national tragedy. How in the hell did MacLeish's wife manage to get a flight IN to DC to set up shop in suburbia considering the majority of the government got blown away? Air travel into the city would be suspended. Hell, there would be no planes flying with 100 miles of DC. 

There is just so much, "It's just a normal day" going on that I cannot take it. No one looks like hell and they should look like hell. Every single one of those reporters would have been working on stories, real stories, 24/7 and look like it. And the access that people get to the First Lady, the Special Adviser, all of it. Come on.  Government needs to be re-established. It's not time to take a call from your friend about some protests, or for a woman in a detention center to get through the White House switchboard. Seriously. No. 

I just can't with the silliness of this show anymore. Taking it off DVR.

Edited October 13, 2016 by BlackberryJam

[henripootel]

28 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Anyway, I was all set to say, "I called it!" (that MacLeish was innocent but there was an internal conspiracy) but then the FBI agent got the cryptic call.

Not to toot my own horn, but I called this back on day 2, from the 'next time on' shot showing MacLeish crawling out of the debris.  Putting my prognosticator hat on ... Agent Nikita is gonna go pick through the rubble and in room 105, she's gonna find a titanium bomb-proof box, all overlooked in the meticulous FBI combing of the wreckage.  Which'll lead to questions like 'how did the FBI miss a titanium bomb-proof box when they were combing through the wreckage?'

I think I'm about an episode behind you, Blackberry.  I developed stupendous powers of belief-suspension watching 24, but they're getting too much of a workout thus far.  This had better get more interesting quickly.  

[Moose135]

25 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

How in the hell did MacLeish's wife manage to get a flight IN to DC to set up shop in suburbia considering the majority of the government got blown away? Air travel into the city would be suspended. Hell, there would be no plans flying with 100 miles of DC.

As the wife of a Congressman, the only survivor of the explosion that destroyed the Capitol, I imagine the President would have sent a government aircraft to fly her back to be with her husband.

[izabella]

2 hours ago, The Wild Sow said:

Oregon.  3 hours earlier.

The texts were all sent around 10 PM DC time, so 7 PM Pacific time.

I find it strange that the wife of a Congressman would be at the mall with the kids during the State of the Union address.   What possible shopping emergency came up that a Congressman's wife would need to take the kids shopping?  I guess I'd expect her to be more interested in hearing the annual address, seeing that her husband is part of that group of people who run the country along with the President.   It's a big night for Congress - how often do they all show up like that to listen to the President lay out his perspective on the issues facing the country and the world, and hear his plans and how that could and will impact the country?  Presidential policies DO impact people, people like her husband and his constituents.

Is putting her in the mall an example of the show being stupid (among many examples), does it mean something like she's lying on her husband's behalf, or am I expecting too much to think a Congressman's wife would be interested in the speech? 

Edited October 13, 2016 by izabella

[BW Manilowe]

2 hours ago, Biggie B said:

MacLeish's wife said she was at the mall with her kids and one of them got separated from her, so she texted her husband repeatedly during the State of the Union, while she was freaking out over her daughter's disappearance.

The State of the Union address is held fairly late in the evening. Why would she have been out shopping with her little kids at that hour of the night?

I thought she mentioned being (with their kids at a mall) in "Eugene" when the bombing happened, which is in Oregon (they were looking for a dress for some event involving 1 of their kids)--at least I'm assuming she meant that Eugene.

If she was in Oregon (not all Congressional spouses/families make a permanent move to DC or its MD/VA suburbs when their spouses take national political office; some stay in the family home out of state so as not to pull the kid out of school in midyear, or so as to maintain a sense of normalcy for the family, etc.), there would be a 3-hour time change between there & DC, (6PM, or slightly later, in Oregon to 9PM or later in DC). So the malls in the western US would still be open for shopping.

And, given that it was now a week (or however many days they mentioned, somewhere toward the beginning in a scene with President Kirkman) later, she would've been able to get to her husband's side in DC by the day the scene was set in.

[BW Manilowe]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

What state is he from? There could be as much as a three hour time difference.

Anyway, I was all set to say, "I called it!" (that MacLeish was innocent but there was an internal conspiracy) but then the FBI agent got the criptic call.

Are criptic calls like that a TV trope?

Three hours if you're only counting the Continental US States. Respectfully if you include our 49th state, Alaska, there's 4 hours time difference between there & DC, & there's a 6-hour time difference between our 50th state, Hawaii, & DC. So there could be as much of a 6-hour time difference between DC & wherever he represents in Congress (Hawaii & Alaska don't always have non-white Senators &/or Members of the House of Representatives).

[Bobbin]

I agree that there is way too much moodiness and lack of scope and gravitas. It's like M Knight Shyamalan's "The Happening," trying to convey the suicides of tens of thousands with a wall chart. And like all TV police procedurals, each character is only dealing with one case, one crisis (one State) at a time, with a comfortable amount of down time. Of course, the simple explanation is, this is TV. Even at 55", it's still a small picture.

MacLeish's wife would likely be flown to their DC home on a military transport. As for Kirkman arresting Royce, Royce did quite publicly commit an act of treason. The U.S. Marshalls would be justified in placing him under arrest (holding him in custody, in federal terms) at the direction of the President, just as any police officer could arrest a perp caught in the act. His future home wouldn't be Sing-Sing, btw, but likely US Prison, Lee, in Virginia.

Seth turning down the Press Secretary post because his race and religion were factors makes as much sense as a someone turning down a date because their attractiveness and personality were factors.

If Kirkman is prepared to attack Algeria, why didn't he tell them that when they refused to surrender the (alleged) terrrorist? If he suddenly grew a pair, maybe he should rehire the general, who wanted to strike in the first place.

This is escapist fare, though, not a docudrama. Pass the chips and salsa.

[Netfoot]

One thing especially rings completely false about the show, to me:  It's one week after a devastating attack has decapitated the administration of the country.  There would be so much to do, there would be a line a hundred long, waiting outside the Oval Office.  Everyone would want to get a decision about this, a presidential signature about that, and an opportunity to grab 30 seconds to bring some specific piece of information before the CinC.  How is it that Kirkland has time to sit in solitude, in an armchair and watch TV?  How is it he gets to take long, contemplative walks on the veranda?  How is it he isn't working 36 hours a day in an absolute frenzy of reorganizing and restructuring?  His ass would be run ragged!  He would be signing so many papers his right hand would stop working and he'd have to dunk it in ice-water and start using his left.   Aides would be rushing in and out every second with more papers and reports and red tape!  But, no.  Just another slow day at the Whitehouse.

 

2 hours ago, merylinkid said:

He would not say "fire this guy in the afternoon, so he can be the DS tonight."

Naturally not.  Because he wouldn't want to make someone DS who couldn't properly ascend to the Presidency in the event of a disaster.  The fact that Kirkland was DS legitimizes his presidency.  Not only was he not fired, and is the sole survivor, but he was the one specifically chosen by past-President Wossname to be his replacement in time of national crisis!

[henripootel]

21 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

Not only was he not fired, and is the sole survivor, but he was the one specifically chosen by past-President Wossname to be his replacement in time of national crisis!

I guess they could argue that Kirkman still being the DS after he was 'fired' is 'just a formality' but here's my counter-argument: it's a formality.  He's formally in the line of succession, so it's not like there was a 'real' DS and Kirkman just conked him on the head.  I really wish they'd stop making this a bone of contention because even within this world, the idea that Kirkman isn't the real president is just stupid.  It's even more stupid that characters are committing treason over it.

It'll be double-stupid if General Shoot-First turns out to be part of the conspiracy but still ignored the President and overstepped his authority.  Kirkman was coming around to the attack plan just fine, no need to jump the gun and lose your job.

Along these lines, if MacLeish is part of the conspiracy, why go through the arcane and hugely dangerous plan of having him anywhere near the actual explosion?  If he's important to your plan, seems dicey to put him in harm's way, and entirely unnecessary.  Why not flesh out the 'got a panicked call from my wife' scenario with a few witnesses in Oregon who saw his wife acting panicky (just in case the FBI checks up on this), called her husband, who rushed out of the State of the Union to take the phone call and bam, was a few blocks away when the bomb went off.  It's no more suspicious than 'I lived through a bombing that killed every single other person', and you don't have to figure out how to protect MacLeish from the explosion.  Instead they put MacLeish into crazy danger, and left clues that Agent Nikita is now uncovering.  And for what?  So that MacLeish can get some sympathy votes for 'almost being killed'?

[HighQueenEB]

MacLeish is definitely an Oregon Senator.  His wife was shopping with her daughter for a prom dress in Eugene.  Maybe it's because I'm from Oregon but I'm not sure there are any other cities named Eugene in the US which are large enough to have a mall.  Also, when Maggie Q was on her "I wanna quit" rant to her boss, she said she "called the mall in Oregon" to verify Mrs. MacLeish's story. 

As far as whether or not I believe that the wife of a US Senator would, in January, be taking her daughter prom dress shopping while the State of the Union is being broadcast, well, yeah...  No.  Prom doesn't happen until April or May out here and I don't know of any girls who are worried, IN JANUARY, about their prom dresses.  On so many levels, this show continues to defy basic facts about life in the US, let alone the inner workings of the US government. 

I agree with some of the other comments...  A week on in this national tragedy, surely the governors and legislatures of all fifty states would have begun the process of selecting/appointing new Senators.  And nothing would be ho-hum, nor do I really think any governor would be ballsy enough to act like Gov. Royce.  If anything, most governors would be positioning themselves for a run at Kirkman's job, just like Hookstraten is, instead of attempting to start a second Civil War.

[Victura]

49 minutes ago, Bobbin said:

Seth turning down the Press Secretary post because his race and religion were factors makes as much sense as a someone turning down a date because their attractiveness and personality were factors.

I thought this made perfect sense. He didn't want the main reason for his appointment to be his race/religion. It's possible he didn't feel entirely qualified as he had mentioned someone else more qualified. I could also imagine a person not wanting to be the token Muslim guy in the administration.

[marinw]

Quote

Nice that we got zero First Kids. 

Yes. This.

I kind of jumped off the couch and clapped when Kirkman fired that silly general. And arrested the governour. "Let's arrest protesters! That always works!"

[Trillian]

Was I the only one who thought recently-promoted-because-his-boss-is-dead Press Secretary was about to say that, oh yeah, the President has a plan - a secret plan to fight inflation?

[Biggie B]

Thanks for the clarification of where Mrs. Macleish was shopping with her children (I'm the one who originally posted the query as to why she was out shopping at about 10:00 p.m.). I totally was not paying very close attention and never heard her mention where she was, in Oregon. I also didn't hear the FBI agent's comment about calling the mall in Oregon to verify. I assumed she and her family lived in the DC area, especially when the FBI agent went to visit the congressman at home with the pretense of providing an update. Having not heard that they live in Eugene, and then seeing the agent show up at their house (without having seen her travel to Oregon), I just put two and two together and got five!

[Primetimer]

But Tom Kirkman is finally laying down some presidential smack.

View the full article

[kili]

I'm sorry, but what did Kirkman think the spy was doing in the compound? Eating scones? The guy had just confirmed that the people who were thought to have destroyed the capital building and the US government were the ones that had done it. He has to know what is going to happen next. He is not going to stick around unless he has no choice. All Kirkman did was give them 12 more hours to torture the guy before they killed him. I'm sure they are long gone from the compound. They are just bombing a shell.

Kirkman's behaviour was naive.

[Amy Beth]

Can someone be arrested for treason? I thought the nature of the crime would require an indictment at the very least, possibly a government tribunal.

[GHScorpiosRule]

7 hours ago, HighQueenEB said:

As far as whether or not I believe that the wife of a US Senator would, in January, be taking her daughter prom dress shopping while the State of the Union is being broadcast, well, yeah...  No.  Prom doesn't happen until April or May out here and I don't know of any girls who are worried, IN JANUARY, about their prom dresses.  On so many levels, this show continues to defy basic facts about life in the US, let alone the inner workings of the US government. 

She didn't say she took her daughter to shop for a prom dress. She said it was for an upcoming winter recital.

That said, most of you have stated how I also felt about this episode. The stupid, it just burns. My eyes rolled especially hard at Emily feeling 'BETRAAAAAYED!' because she told that treasonous piece of shit Royce that Kirkman was a reasonable and thoughtful man. Did she really, I mean really think that Kirkman would let Royce get away with all the shit he's been pulling? And boo hoo, cry me a fucking river that she ended up looking like a "liar" in front of that asshole. And I wanted to headslap her for that  "he's changed and not the person I thought he was" bullshit. This isn't Romper Room or the world of Care Bears.

I think I have a bump on my head from all the desk palming it did when Kirkman talked about not going after Algeria because it was possible that an American Agent was in the compound. That's what they and the ones who join the military-sign up for. Jeebus Cripes.

And since this show clearly doesn't know how government works, I don't see why a word from the First Lady herself couldn't have saved her client, instead of going to Kimble...oh, wait. I forgot: Draaaaaaama.

[TaraS1]

I'm still in for the long haul, with the hopes that the writing gets much better and Maggie Q gets much more to do, but last night kind of felt like a chore to get through.  I spent most of the hour playing around on my phone while I watched, which is not a good sign.

[Netfoot]

7 hours ago, henripootel said:

here's my counter-argument: it's a formality.

Prezackly!

[izabella]

4 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And I wanted to headslap her for that  "he's changed and not the person I thought he was" bullshit. This isn't Romper Room or the world of Care Bears.

Considering the devastating impact of killing off all of Congress as well as the President, it would be strange if he hadn't changed!  The whole country would have changed, just like after 9/11.  I just wish we were seeing more of that!

I noticed they gave a nod to the stock market crashing and this being a bad time to check on your IRA.  It would mean a lot more than that, Mr. President! 

And the whole thing with the Michigan National Guard refusing to be Federalized?  Shouldn't there be some courts martial happening for disobeying the Commander in Chief? 

I'd be expecting a lot more mayhem and prayer vigils and protests and religious leaders and 24/7 coverage of our first responders pulling bodies out of the rubble.  I guess I'm more interested in seeing the impact of this shocking tragedy across the country.  But I'm always disappointed in disaster shows.  I always want to see the immediate aftermath and how widespread it is and broad, sweeping context, but writers always end up playing small ball instead.

[shapeshifter]

46 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

...And since this show clearly doesn't know how government works, I don't see why a word from the First Lady herself couldn't have saved her client, instead of going to Kimble...oh, wait. I forgot: Draaaaaaama.

I too thought that's where the plot was going, but no. By going to Kimble, the FLOTUS reinforces the notion and appearance that she and the DS POTUS are just powerless figureheads. To be fair to her character, she had a short timeframe to accomplish something that she felt fully invested in, and Kimble had the necessary clout. 

[Moose135]

39 minutes ago, izabella said:

And the whole thing with the Michigan National Guard refusing to be Federalized?  Shouldn't there be some courts martial happening for disobeying the Commander in Chief? 

There certainly will be.

[GHScorpiosRule]

44 minutes ago, Moose135 said:

There certainly will be.

With this show? I'll believe it when they tell me, because you know, they won't show us.

[kili]

Quote

And the whole thing with the Michigan National Guard refusing to be Federalized?  Shouldn't there be some courts martial happening for disobeying the Commander in Chief? 

It would certainly seem that the commander committed treason. He was essentially refusing a direct order and almost having coup.

I'm less certain that the governor could be arrested for treason. It would depend on what he knew when. Did he know that the National Guard had been federalized?  Did he just think the National Guard was National Guarding? The general spoke directly to the president, so governor may not have known what he was up to.

I have come to the conclusion that the world this show lives in is very different than our world. I can understand how somebody was able to fill the Capital Building with explosives when that would be nearly impossible in our world. If a rag-tag group of protesters can storm an airport and get on the tarmac filled with police and National Guardsman, clearly, the security in this world is nearly non-existent. And if a group did manage to get on the tarmac of the airport, nobody would be complaining about them getting arrested. The public would be complaining that the protesters were allowed to get there in the first place.

Edited October 13, 2016 by kili

[izabella]

21 minutes ago, kili said:

I'm less certain that the governor could be arrested for treason.

He disobeyed an order from the President, refused to allow the President's Special Advisor to enter his state, and refuses to acknowledge him as the President.  Seems treason-worthy even without the National Guard defection.

[henripootel]

38 minutes ago, kili said:

It would certainly seem that the commander committed treason. He was essentially refusing a direct order and almost having coup.

He'd absolutely be facing court marshal and lose his job, possibly do a bit of time in the stockade.  That's for disobeying an order, for doing so in a time of war, that's a different story.  And if his refusal to follow orders got anyone killed by the guys in his command, it's to prison he'll be a-going.  I presume - we need a proper military-type to give us the skinny, not that reality will mean much here.

 I'm guessing Gov. Idiot would be (in this world and ours) be removed from power immediately and held for a while, but depending on how quickly this resolved and how sorry he said he was, be eventually released.  But he's finished in politics.  

Honestly, do you really think any elected official would act like this in either world?  After 9-11, people lined up to tell Bush they'd give him anything he thought was needed to defend the country.  There were people who lost careers just for publicly questioning whether or not we should maybe think a moment before we invaded Iraq.  This is way, way worse, and I'd have thought that the good people of Michigan would riot before doing anything that seemed so un-american as supporting their governor against the President of the United States.  Gov. Idiot would be lucky to not be stoned by his own guys, and no fucking way they'll throw away their own careers for something that can only end one way, not based on their governor's opinion that President Bauer wasn't elected so he's not really the president.  Uh, thanks for your 5-minute rebellion, Gov. Dipshit, I was kinda counting on getting my pension. 

Edited October 13, 2016 by henripootel

[slowpoked]

I know Kirkman is supposed to be naive and has that "charming, innocent, boyish quality" that Congresswoman said, but even I was like, C'mon! when he wouldn't pull the trigger on the bombing because of one American agent. I don't think the writers would write him to be that noble, but they went there. I understand everyone's frustrations in that room. And the general was right - when he talked to the Algerian Prez about Nassar, that tipped them off that the US has possibly his whereabouts and could inform Nassar and his men to leave! stat!, and waiting for the agent's safety means losing their small window of attacking.

And of course, they found a way to loop Maggie Q back in the thick of things with the cryptic phone call. Did anyone really think the show would go through with her transfer request and have her out of the show entirely? Pssh.

[rab01]

This show is not the West Wing; This show is not the West Wing; This show is not the West Wing!

I need to tell myself that enough times until my hind-brain starts believing it. That way I can enjoy a show that's a soap opera cheese-and-action-fest rather than a political procedural. This show will never approach believability because a believable show with this premise would have every character bowing and scraping in front of the new President just like everyone did for George W Bush -- but more so.  That would not allow for the drama to center around Kiefer and his character's inadequacies so it's just not the show they are trying to make.

That said, they were better on a few details this week than last week -- (1) they joked that Kirkman got only 3 hours of sleep but that it qualified as good news; (2) Kirkman fired the mutinous general and arrested the treasonous governor (both deeply necessary actions even if the general was almost right for once); (3) Seth rejected a job when offered by asshole chief of staff but couldn't say no to the president - for me, it was a West Wing callback to how difficult it is to say no to a personal request from the president; (4) they gave us a 1-week time lapse to start the episode so they can now hand-wave away various parts of the government now working.

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 minutes ago, rab01 said:

This show is not the West Wing; This show is not the West Wing; This show is not the West Wing!

 

This is what I keep telling myself, and it's difficult because I'm also rewatching The West Wing as I'm watching this show! Guess which one I'm going to give up?

[Moose135]

20 minutes ago, slowpoked said:

And of course, they found a way to loop Maggie Q back in the thick of things with the cryptic phone call. Did anyone really think the show would go through with her transfer request and have her out of the show entirely? Pssh.

Did anyone really think the deputy director of the FBI, leading the largest, most important investigation in the agency's history, would let one of his key agents transfer off the case because she was sad over losing her boyfriend?

 

6 minutes ago, rab01 said:

This show is not the West Wing; This show is not the West Wing; This show is not the West Wing!

Ain't that the truth!

[Latverian Diplomat]

14 hours ago, janeta said:

Ok maybe i missed it--why aren't the governors madly appointing congresspeople? The SOB's and HOB's are intact; if they need chambers they can commandeer space in those Independence Ave federal bldgs. How long are the showrunners planning on keeping their little government without a Congress?

It's been less than two weeks, on the show, if I understand the timeline correctly. Also some states give governors appointment power to replace senators, some require special elections, and if anything, special elections are required in even more states for House vacancies.

It's true that the state leg's could quickly change those procedures and speed things along, but it's still early to have new congress people filtering in. Hopefully, we will start hearing about or seeing this happening soon.

I'm a little more cynical about political grandstanding, so at least one governor being a huge dick I don't find completely unbelievable.  And, to be honest, there's drama without conflict, so a story about the nation rallying around new President Kirkman would be pretty boring, even if more realistic.

Edited October 13, 2016 by Latverian Diplomat

[kili]

Quote

[The governor] disobeyed an order from the President, refused to allow the President's Special Advisor to enter his state, and refuses to acknowledge him as the President.  Seems treason-worthy even without the National Guard defection.

The president of the US isn't a dictator. He's only allowed to give certain types of orders. He is Commander in Chief so he can order the military to do some stuff, but can you really get arrested in the US for saying "Nope, I don't want to talk to your advisor"? Can you really get arrested for saying "You aren't the President of me"? (because I think lots of people are going to get arrested after this next election if that is true)

I think that Kirkman had a stronger case for arresting the governor for violating Civil Rights than treason.  Arresting people for treason who disagree with you is usually not the hallmark of a healthy democracy.  Although, the governor seemed pretty close to declaring his state as not part of the US.

Still annoyed at Kirkman wasting that spy's life. The spy isn't making contact  because he's either gone to ground or been compromised. Waiting isn't going to help in either case.  That spy died to get them actionable intelligence and Kirkman threw that away.

Edited October 13, 2016 by kili

[Netfoot]

18 minutes ago, kili said:

Can you really get arrested for saying "You aren't the President of me"?

He didn't say that*.  He said: "The state of Michigan is off limits to Tom Kirkland, his staff, his plane, and most of all, his presidency."

I am not an American, nor particularly familiar with the laws and statutes that apply.  But is a governor entitled to deny Tom Kirkland, his staff, or any citizen of the USA, entry to his state?  What about the United States Constitution which states, "The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States."  Doesn't this grant freedom of movement to Tom Kirkland and his staff?  To deny this, is tantamount to a declaration of cessation.  As is, presumably, the refusal to accept the authority of the presidency.

And Gen. Munoz said: "The Michigan State Guard stands behind it's true Commander-in-Chief, Gov. James Royce."

By declaring Royce as CinC, is this not an indication that Munoz and Royce consider themselves no longer a part of, nor under the authority of, the legitimate President of the USA?  For that to be so, wouldn't Michigan have to cease to be a part of the USA? IOW, secede?  

 

* Well, perhaps he did say that, but it isn't the important part.

[Happy Harpy]

I guess I'm in the minority since it was my favorite one since the pilot.

Finally, the badass under the glasses. I had my Hell Yeah moments! And President Kiefer even got to get snarky with Kimble. The pace seemed to pick up speed as I expected and the episode was more eventful, too.

I love Team Kirkman, all three of them. It was obvious that Seth was the man for the job and for me it clearly was the motivation behind Aaron's choice, the political advantage was the cherry on the cake. I understand Seth's reluctance to be a token...maybe, I believe, because he wasn't so sure he was the right man for the job before his talk with Kirkman. I understand how Emily was dismayed to see what she thought was a diplomatic attempt turned into a trap; especially since it was the first mission confided in her and she believed she was trusted only to discover she was kept out of the loop. I think it's realistic that she's afraid that Kirkman is changing, but she also needed a reality check. And for all his shady-looking moves and political sharktitude, Aaron reveals rather loyal for now. I thought of Aragorn refusing the one ring, when he declined Kimble's proposition. I'm certain his loyalty will be questioned at one point, but I think he might end up as Kirkman's number one fan.

Aaron/Seth/Emily make for a good balance of shades of grey between principles and real politik and I'm looking forward to more scenes between them. Kirkman, his team and Kimble are my favorite parts of the show.

I rolled my eyes at Emily's discussion with Governor Gaston because I was afraid of another Power of Love moment and bam, riot act was read instead! It was an inversion for this show and I loved it.

And Mykelti Williamson! I lurve him. Buh-bye, General Schmuck!

No First Kids, yes! But. Although I can't say that Alex's subplot was irrelevant since she found herself owing a favor to Kimble, I'm not sure it did a favor to her character. Especially after her not telling about the drug dealing last week. I liked her better when she advised Tom. The only merit for me was more Mike.

Maggie Q and Malik Yoba have good chemistry and the investigation keeps me interested. Hannah went thought the tropey crisis of faith, but I found it only normal after losing a loved one a few days ago. But she needs to be integrated with the rest of the main cast ASAP.

Aaron and Emily texting was kind of cute. Heeeelp.