S04.E08: To Have and To Hold

[Vinyasa]

Quote

I think that at 32 she had hoped to meet another person her age who was mature and wanted similar things in life.  Instead she got comic book arms, weed smoking, and backward ball caps.  I do give Derek points for the dog.  

To be fair, we don't know what he was smoking.

We can all speculate but I want someone from the show to spill the beans! All of us have let these people into our lives (ha-ha) and they can't leave us hanging.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Vinyasa

[Stillhoping]

I find it really strange that Nick never has mentioned past loves...I have my own odd theory...I think he is bi...and non involved sex as a fling. I know the area where he lives...near ft laud beach tourists..party...he can walk to Himarshee area...bars happy hours clubs...younger locals and college kids...he Las Olas...classier clubs Professionals...cougars..international and wealthier tourists...mile away from intercoastal bars...oh and he can jog to wilton manors and enjoy gay bars..clubs..drag whatever. His renters also are fair game. 

I feel he is a selfcentered pan sexual that has no real emotion for anyone. A pool bathroom...go to someones hotel...whatever.  I think he does want his mom off his back.

[Paddywagon]

Did anyone else notice the huge wall mural of the naked chicks as Derek entered his friend's apartment?  How tacky can you get?  I'm surprised his friend doesn't have his shirt unbuttoned to show his chest hair and gold chains, lol!

[zxy556575]

I'm sure there's a legal difference, but what's ironic to me about the talk of Derek and Heather possibly getting an annulment vs a divorce is that nobody excludes them when discussing marriages. For example, Wikipedia lists a celebrity as having X number of marriages, along with the years, and "annulled" in parentheses if applicable. Same is true of the one person I know IRL who had an annulment -- everyone knows she went through a damned ceremony, signed the license and GOT MARRIED. It still counts in our heads!

And it's not something you could ever omit telling a new partner:

New romantic interest: "Tell me about your previous relationships. Have you been married before?"
Derek/Heather: "Er. I was married very briefly and got an annulment."
NRI: "Wow. What happened?!"
Derek/Heather: "I was on a reality show on a bargain basement TV network."
NRI: "Gosh, look at the time! I have to be somewhere."

Edited September 15, 2016 by lordonia

[humbleopinion]

Gianpierre!

Everybody needs a buddy like Gianpierre to help you get over a broken heart.

How could you NOT notice that glorious wall covering?

It was so magnificent I had to rewind to take it all in.

Hell of a guy and procurer of fine art.

Edited September 16, 2016 by humbleopinion
correct spelling Gianpierre

[Aethera]

Hey folks, remember that information from Confessions and Unfiltered doesn't belong in the episode topic. You can discuss Confessions in the Unfiltered topic - I'll edit the title :)

[seacliffsal]

I actually find Sonia to be... tiring.  Nick looked relaxed when they were on the hammock and was saying he liked her (or something close) but wasn't in love with her yet.  Sonia gave a sarcastic 'good talk' and left.  Without telling Nick what was bothering her.  That's really immature.  She tells him to open up, he does but says something that she doesn't want to her and it's over.  It's too much of a burden to place on someone if they are always having to step softly around someone not knowing what will set them off.  Also, the next morning when they had their 'talk' she didn't tell him what was wrong.  I really think she expects him to know what she is thinking and to anticipate her needs.  I don't blame Nick for not necessarily being interested in her.  He may have been at some point, but her pattern is repeated over and over (wedding, honeymoon, etc.).   Also, if they stay in the marriage, her debt becomes his debt.

Although I have fallen for the wrong men, I was always aware of their financial situation.  Not that they had to earn more than I did-just that they were working and had their spending under control.  A really good friend of mine found out after her wedding that he couldn't afford her engagement/wedding ring and she had to pay off his debt on it, along with other debts, and is still covering costs.  If Nick had to start paying on Sonia's debt that's a huge financial strain on a new marriage.  

[KateHearts]

9 hours ago, henrysmom said:

That rental of Lily and Tom's is kind of nasty.

Yes, this.  It looks like a shack, truly.  The walls are dirty and uneven and they don't look like they live there; they look like they flopped there.

And I could have done without the prolonged scene of Tom lapping that paint off of her like a dog.  Please, no. 

I think Derek's hand-wringing, "I can't BELIEVE she bailed out so soon! Why didn't she work on this commitment?" blah blah was total play-acting. The real Derek was the one who blew his stack because she dared to head out of the cave ahead of him when they were apparently having a Meaningful Conversation. He went through the motions (sorta) and then when she realized he was immature, said, "but I did everything right!  What's wrong with her? Waah."

Did anyone notice the body language when Nick *finally* stopped worrying about his poor pooch in the crate and settled in to sleep? He had himself all wrapped up in an armour-like blanket cocoon, curled up in a ball. I thought that was telling.

Which airline has the uniform that Heather was wearing? Anyone research?

[Vinyasa]

Quote

New romantic interest: "Tell me about your previous relationships. Have you been married before?"
Derek/Heather: "Er. I was married very briefly and got an annulment."
NRI: "Wow. What happened?!"
Derek/Heather: "I was on a reality show on a bargain basement TV network."
NRI: "Gosh, look at the time! I have to be somewhere."

They don't get an annulment, they get a divorce.

Also, Derek is go to spin this divorce to his advantage. While, Heather may say she was on the basement TV network, Derek is going to say he was looking for and found true love at first sight. On their honeymoon, his wife flirted with the surf instructor and she barely gave her husband the time of day. She even left him in a cave.

Derek will be the victim to get women to feel sorry for him. He knows how to play this!

[holly4755]

annulments are very different than divorce for catholics. You can not get remarried in the church if you are divorced and Hispanic / likely Catholic. Although none of these marriages were in a church probably because they do not like filming reality shows in churches. 

[nlkm9]

5 hours ago, psychoticstate said:

Tomato, ta-mahto, I guess.  I don't agree with Heather's remark on Derek marrying anyone to show that he simply wants to be married because isn't that the sole purpose and intent of this show?  

Much as others, myself included, don't want to immediately go to "Nick's gay," I also don't want to immediately say that Derek is a pothead who gets baked first thing in the morning because we don't know that for certain.  Yes, it does appear that he was/is a pot smoker but since they have not shown us nor addressed it absolutely, I'm not going to say it's so.  

Do I think Derek and Heather were a good match?  No.  Maybe it's the experts' fault.  Maybe it's Heather's fault because she didn't specify exactly what she was looking for.  Maybe it was Derek's fault because he wasn't honest.  Who knows?   I'm going based on what is being shown on the program and what we've been shown on the program is that Heather checked out and shut down almost immediately and didn't appear to give Derek a chance.  If it was a lifestyle choice that simply could not be overcome, I understand and that's on the experts (provided both Heather and Derek were honest) for matching them to begin with.

I think a lot of stuff must have been cut because Derek did say that he stopped smoking as soon as Heather brought it up.  And again, from what we saw, he did try to get to know her, have fun with activities in PR and again, from what we saw, she was dour and no fun.  So based on what MAFS showed to us, Heather appeared to have done nothing to try and make the situation work or at least make it more comfortable for both of them.  

This season may very well kill the show.  The six weeks basically means nothing if Heather or anyone else can check out two weeks in.  What's the point? Other than getting a paid for party (wedding) and a honeymoon trip . . . and your 15 minutes on tv. 

we did see that derek stopped smoking and that was so telling for me--he got whiny ,paranoid and was such a jerk to her.....so he stopped but was pissed about it. by the way, after reading this board i looked carefully at his tatoos last nite and wow they are cartoonish!!

as far as Nick and Sonia, he is just not into her.(doesnt mean hes gay)  its a shame because she really seems like a sweet girl--she and David would have been perfect!!!

[Verojama]

I personnally feel bad for derek.. Heather is really stuck up.. She didnt try.. He is a social smoker, if he smokes 10 cigarettes on vacation a day who cares cmon she lied somewhere in there to the experts. On top of that he stopped .. She was leaving him alone most of the time.. I think she is alcoholic though..she has issues.....

Somia too wasnt honest with the experts... She had to specify Phobia of dogs....duhh!! I agree i dont think nick is attracted, i understand taking it slow but 3 weeks and no intimicy thats not slow thats ridiculous!!! Theres something up with Nick!

[Evil Queen]

1 hour ago, Vinyasa said:

They don't get an annulment, they get a divorce.

Also, Derek is go to spin this divorce to his advantage. While, Heather may say she was on the basement TV network, Derek is going to say he was looking for and found true love at first sight. On their honeymoon, his wife flirted with the surf instructor and she barely gave her husband the time of day. She even left him in a cave.

Derek will be the victim to get women to feel sorry for him. He knows how to play this!

This show has made it clear there is no getting an annulment. I think its in the contracts somewhere. Agree he will play up the victim part like no other with any women he can. Of course at some point those women will end up understanding why things turned out as they did for him. 

[Blissfool]

8 hours ago, SaucyMommy said:

When they were doing the Tantra touching she looked really relaxed and he looked petrified. 

I actually thought the opposite. Sonia was ready to burst out laughing, while Nick seemed to be meditating, perhaps imagining himself in a far away place, maybe with a certain mustached wine connoisseur. 

[MsPH]

I'm also kind of tired of someone being labeled as gay every season. Pretty sure there was extensive discussion at least regarding Sean and Neil. Just because you're not a typical alpha male with a raging libido and willingness to have sex on TV show doesn't mean that you're gay. There's so much pressure and so many expectations on this show, I'm surprised any of them are in the mood.

Sonia obviously isn't Nick's usual type or someone he's immediately drawn to, but I do think he finds her to be an attractive woman and he's obviously noticed her best "assets", even if it takes some whiskey to make him admit to it. He probably just feels the pressure of having to be attracted to her because that's who they married him off to, plus he thinks that having sex with her is basically saying "I want to be with you forever", which is not something he's anywhere near ready to commit to. Sonia is a sensitive person and seems to like him, so he might be scared of misleading her. I can see how it'd be easier to have sex with someone you're casually seeing than someone you're already married to and not sure you want to stay married to. All this on top of his obvious shyness and being on camera is not exactly making him want to jump her bones. I kind of wish she jumped his bones though and showed him what he's missing, but I don't think she has the nerve. I still have hope for them though and the TH's where he's talking about Sonia being very attractive were obviously filmed afterwards, so maybe he did grow more attracted to her over time. I think she's super pretty and I'm envious of her hair. I wish I could take some of it and transplant it into Lillian's head.

Speaking of Lily, I also thought she was being a bit too dramatic. I don't even know Tom personally, yet I don't think she has anything to worry about when it comes to him and the surgery. It's not like she's terminally ill and he has to commit to years of being her nurse. But she is really young and under a lot of stress, so I guess it's understandable. I actually liked the blonde expert, whose name I can't even remember, this episode.

I also think it's a bit sad that Heather was so quick to give up, but I'm glad they let her bail instead of torturing us for weeks. So sick of watching couples who aren't even trying and have no chance of staying together. I want to see some trying at least.

[ExplainItAgain]

41 minutes ago, Evil Queen said:

This show has made it clear there is no getting an annulment. I think its in the contracts somewhere. Agree he will play up the victim part like no other with any women he can. Of course at some point those women will end up understanding why things turned out as they did for him. 

Yes, I think it must be in their contracts that they can't get an annulment. The contracts probably rule out fraud since they don't know exactly what (or who) they are committing to but they sign anyway. Not sure about the other cases for annulment but I'm guessing those contracts are ironclad and very specific.

[Madding crowd]

It didn't bother me that Lilly was scared of surgery, most people are. It was just that if you need shoulder surgery than you are experiencing arm pain and possibly limited movement, have likely gone through physical therapy and/or injections; and she acted like she just went for a checkup and they told her she needed surgery. She said something about being 'all clear' but that doesn't really relate to something like shoulder issues. If you are still in pain, you are not all clear. She also talked about Tom being her caregiver. In most cases, shoulder surgery would be a day surgery and you would be home the same day. She would need someone to take her to the hospital and would have a sling on her arm for a few days, but outside of driving her home and giving her a sandwich, there is no real caregiving needed. 

I like Sonia and hope she can find someone who will appreciate her. No, sex isn't necessary if you are dating, but these people are married and sleeping in the same bed. If Nick is not turned on by sleeping in the same bed with Sonia, he will never be turned on. I don't know what his deal is, whether he was another guy who they talked into the show because they were short available men, but something isn't right.

[Jack Sampson]

They don't file for an annulment because it takes longer, is way more expensive and, after you've spent all the time and money, the judge can still declare the marriage was valid...which is the likely outcome in these cases.  A divorce is cheaper, easier and the show will pay for it.

[PityFree]

Maybe Lily learned to say "Tom and me" at the medical school she says she wish she had finished. Yup. Must have been in med school.

Edited September 15, 2016 by PityFree

[Snarklepuss]

4 hours ago, watch2much said:

I, too, thought Lilly must have received horrible news (unable to have child, cancer) and gave a huge "big deal" to shoulder surgery.  And for all who say being afraid of surgery can happen I would remind you she had  supposedly been in MEDICAL SCHOOL, so surely should know on the scale of surgeries this is not life threatening.  I live in a retirement community--everyone here has shoulder, knee, hip surgeries with less drama than a healthy, young woman.

You should have seen me when I found out a couple of weeks ago that I might need gallbladder surgery.  I'm 58 and never had surgery before but I'm practically PHOBIC about going under general anesthesia and possible after effects of the procedure.  Everyone acts like it's so routine but I've heard of people dying from much less (remember Joan Rivers).  It's no joke to have this fear.  I was afraid of flying but even got over that and flew a lot for a long time.  But this is such a phobia that I dread it, break out in a sweat, am convinced I am going to DIE.  And I'm not prone to those things at all.  I'm pretty brave.  I've had implants put in my jaw without anesthesia (just local).   So I have sympathy for anyone who fears surgery. 

My own father flatlined 15 years ago for almost 30 seconds when he had his gallbladder out.  He had to have the full surgery.  OK, shoulder surgery is not in that league but add that to having just gotten married to a stranger ON TV and feeling insecure about whether he'll stand by you when you're not at your best and I think it's more understandable. 

I think Lilly is still in that stage in a new relationship where she's trying to make her best impression.  I think she's afraid Tom will see her at her worst and perhaps not be as interested in her, and that's one reason why she's more upset about the surgery.  I think she's seeing it as happening at a bad time.  I don't think that's a ridiculous fear, I think it's pretty natural, although I don't think she really has anything to worry about.  But just because they are so into each other and technically married doesn't mean they're skipping over the "best impression" stage of the relationship.

[PityFree]

Lily can't be *that* injured. She was swimming, humping, zip lining, humping, dancing, humping, horse back riding, and having sex on her honeymoon. 

[Lola16]

7 hours ago, Evil Queen said:

 

I didn't think David was dough but if that was the case then the same could have been said for Tres. They seemed similar in body shapes. As well as I do not see Derek and him being anything alike either. I wouldn't put someone like Sonia with a person like Tres. Tres wasn't into the show or genuine at all. He was a player that got talked into doing the show somehow and wasn't looking for marriage at all. He got what he wanted out of things and moved on. Sonia needs a guy with a more kind and caring personality that is similar to her's. Someone that will show he cares and likes to be touchy/feely like. 

 

David was/is pasty and doughy. Tres wasn't slim either, just as pudgy as David. Tres was tall and a better dresser.  And had a better personality than Nick.  I don't think any man last year or this year was all that. What I liked about Tres was that he didn't seem to be playing games and looked like he tried. Vanessa was all pouty and emotional all the time. Yea, Tres was recruited into it but so was David last year and so was Tom this year (not sure about the other 2).

6 hours ago, psychoticstate said:

 I wish that Heather would have asked PC exactly why she was matched with Derek.  I would want to know if I was in her shoes.  Maybe it could have changed her outlook, maybe not.  Unless the scene was cut and/or heavily edited, it doesn't appear that PC told her WHY they believed she and Derek would be a good match.

Well according to Dr Pepper, Derek traveled in the Navy (a good 12 years ago) and Heather is a flight attended.

[Snarklepuss]

5 hours ago, Stillhoping said:

I find it really strange that Nick never has mentioned past loves...I have my own odd theory...I think he is bi...and non involved sex as a fling. I know the area where he lives...near ft laud beach tourists..party...he can walk to Himarshee area...bars happy hours clubs...younger locals and college kids...he Las Olas...classier clubs Professionals...cougars..international and wealthier tourists...mile away from intercoastal bars...oh and he can jog to wilton manors and enjoy gay bars..clubs..drag whatever. His renters also are fair game. 

I feel he is a selfcentered pan sexual that has no real emotion for anyone. A pool bathroom...go to someones hotel...whatever.  I think he does want his mom off his back.

Yup that's another theory I am entertaining - That Nick is only used to superficial sex.  He even used that word with the counselor Rachel.  He said, "I don't want to say they've been superficial", meaning past relationships or his level of involvement with the people (he never did specify which sex, LOL).

He may be one of those intimacy-phobic people that has trouble forming deep close relationships with people.  I am not including his douchebro friendships in that.  I mean close romantic relationships.  His being so expressive with the dogs is a giveaway.  I knew a man like that once - a man who was very attached and affectionate/expressive with his dogs but could not get emotionally close enough to a woman to form a lasting relationship.  From his conversation with that counselor this week, Nick seems to be able to totally compartmentalize love and sex into completely different realms in his life and can't seem to reconcile the two.  Some on the board have said he seems like he might have the "madonna/whore" complex.  I say it's sort of like that but probably just an inability to have a close relationship that includes both sex and emotional attachment/friendship/love.  In Nick's case though I think it's also that he doesn't find Sonia attractive, but it may in part be because he can't imagine having sex with a woman he's friends with.  To him sex is a dirty affair done with skanks of both sexes.  How to reconcile that with actually LIKING the person for more than sex?  I think he has many issues.  Not that he should necessarily find Sonia attractive but what I'm seeing of him makes me think he needs therapy before he'd be ready for marriage with anyone.

I also think he like many people with his issues is doing something desperate like hoping maybe some experts can find him someone to marry because he can't seem to do it himself.  Someone else said better than that upthread.  It's like he thinks that if he forces himself to marry someone it will get family off his back and actually achieve something he couldn't on his own.  But if you don't have the tools in your toolbox to make it work forcing yourself into it isn't going to suddenly make you able to make it work.

This show is unbelievable.  That Nick could slip past the experts without them seeing evidence of this is just more proof of how inept they are.  Just because we have new "experts" this season doesn't mean they are any better than that jerk Cilona or Levkoff, IMHO.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Snarklepuss

[CindyK]

22 minutes ago, Snarklepuss said:

Yup that's another theory I am entertaining - That Nick is only used to superficial sex.  He even used that word with the counselor Rachel.  He said, "I don't want to say they've been superficial", meaning past relationships or his level of involvement with the people (he never did specify which sex, LOL).

He may be one of those intimacy-phobic people that has trouble forming deep close relationships with people.  I am not including his douchebro friendships in that.  I mean close romantic relationships.  His being so expressive with the dogs is a giveaway.  I knew a man like that once - a man who was very attached and affectionate/expressive with his dogs but could not get emotionally close enough to a woman to form a lasting relationship.  From his conversation with that counselor this week, Nick seems to be able to totally compartmentalize love and sex into completely different realms in his life and can't seem to reconcile the two.  Some on the board have said he seems like he might have the "madonna/whore" complex.  I say it's sort of like that but probably just an inability to have a close relationship that includes both sex and emotional attachment/friendship/love.  In Nick's case though I think it's also that he doesn't find Sonia attractive, but it may in part be because he can't imagine having sex with a woman he's friends with.  To him sex is a dirty affair done with skanks of both sexes.  How to reconcile that with actually LIKING the person for more than sex?  I think he has many issues.  Not that he should necessarily find Sonia attractive but what I'm seeing of him makes me think he needs therapy before he'd be ready for marriage with anyone.

I also think he like many people with his issues is doing something desperate like hoping maybe some experts can find him someone to marry because he can't seem to do it himself.  Someone else said better than that upthread.  It's like he thinks that if he forces himself to marry someone it will get family off his back and actually achieve something he couldn't on his own.  But if you don't have the tools in your toolbox to make it work forcing yourself into it isn't going to suddenly make you able to make it work.

This show is unbelievable.  That Nick could slip past the experts without them seeing evidence of this is just more proof of how inept they are.  Just because we have new "experts" this season doesn't mean they are any better than that jerk Cilona or Levkoff, IMHO.

This is why I'm skeptical when some say that this show should avoid casting people in their 20s. I think some of the older participants (not that people in their 30s are old) come with their own issues - like Nick. I too think he did this show to appease his mother, who probably wants grandchildren.  But I don't think he wants to share his life or home with someone.

1 hour ago, Lola16 said:

David was/is pasty and doughy. Tres wasn't slim either, just as pudgy as David. Tres was tall and a better dresser.  And had a better personality than Nick.  I don't think any man last year or this year was all that. What I liked about Tres was that he didn't seem to be playing games and looked like he tried. Vanessa was all pouty and emotional all the time. Yea, Tres was recruited into it but so was David last year and so was Tom this year (not sure about the other 2).

Well according to Dr Pepper, Derek traveled in the Navy (a good 12 years ago) and Heather is a flight attended.

A lot of things came out about Tres after the show ended. I think he did what he had to for a good edit (ever the salesman) but his words didn't necessarily meet his actions off camera, which drove some of her insecurities.  I also don't think he dressed that well.

[lazylou]

4 hours ago, holly4755 said:

annulments are very different than divorce for catholics. You can not get remarried in the church if you are divorced and Hispanic / likely Catholic. Although none of these marriages were in a church probably because they do not like filming reality shows in churches. 

Since these weddings were not in a church, the Catholic church would not consider them marriages at all.

[RavenRed Fox]

Poor Sonja! Nick is as dull as a dead tree stump and as exciting as watching a sloth race ( actually that would be more exciting than Nick). I hate that these so-called experts put people together that are "different" to help "balance" them out. WRONG! Sonja expressed before she was paired up that she is very into her sexuality...so what did they do...pair her with a piece of dry ice. That's a horrible thing for a show to do for ratings, these are people's legal marriages, and pairing someone who is a dog lover with a person afraid of dogs...duh...what type of matchmaker is that??? Sonja deserves soooo much more.

As for the flight attendant, she is a negative Nellie for sure with that hang dog expression on her face. The pastor had no right to tell them to work on their marriage when they already know it is failing horribly, why fake it?

I hate that Nick stated his dislike for Sonja in the previews. He is so unfeeling and looks like a deer in the headlights with his saucer eyes staring into space with each "conversation".

[Lisa418722]

20 hours ago, Gem 10 said:

Regarding Nick, before I was married, I was dating a good looking guy for about 3 months.  He took me to meet his family .. His friends .. I went to weddings with him, etc..  All this while, it was a peck on the cheek.  He never wanted to "make out".   One night while "parking & sparking" in a park, it was a few kisses, and then he said he had to go to the bathroom and wanted to go home.  BINGO !   Then I got it.  He was gay and probably trying to find himself.  How stupid was I ?  Nick reminds me of that.

This brought back memories.  I went out with a guy for about six months (we didn't live close to each other so it's not like we were going out all the time).  It got to be a game for me because he NEVER touched me, he never held my hand or anything. I probably would have passed out if he gave me a peck on the cheek. If we were at a restaurant sitting across from each other I would put my hands out on the table, but nothing.  I think his thing was he so religious he couldn't/wouldn't admit to himself that he was gay. Who knows, maybe he has met someone and gotten married and had kids by now while I'm still looking.  

[Stillhoping]

I believe the show will ONLY pay for a divorce and only within 6 months after final show...so Jamie and Doug are outta luck. The couples legally could get an annulment BUT they would have to pay for it themselves

Re the Catholic Church...their rules ONLY apply to Catholics married in the Church by a Priest...sacred matriage. A civil marriage never counted in their eyes. Some of the participants are likely Catholic..whether practicing or not...but they are able to remarry in the Church no problem. 

[KateHearts]

I'm a little surprised at all of the comments regarding Lilly as being "under a lot of stress."  What stress? She has a wonky shoulder?  A lot of people do (and as was pointed out, she didn't seem at all unable to enjoy all of the physical pursuits of her honeymoon- ziplining and otherwise).  She is newly married on a reality TV show to someone she didn't know three weeks ago? Cry me a river; she signed up for that.  She has to work?  Hmm, been there, done that.

She was a total drama queen about the surgery. Scared or not (most people are), she didn't need to act as if the sky was falling.

[Snarklepuss]

7 hours ago, Lola16 said:

David was/is pasty and doughy. Tres wasn't slim either, just as pudgy as David. Tres was tall and a better dresser.  And had a better personality than Nick.  I don't think any man last year or this year was all that. What I liked about Tres was that he didn't seem to be playing games and looked like he tried. Vanessa was all pouty and emotional all the time. Yea, Tres was recruited into it but so was David last year and so was Tom this year (not sure about the other 2).

Eh, I think Tres was all in on the surface only.  He talked the talk but didn't walk the walk with Vanessa.  His "gifts" to her felt staged to me.  He never showed her any real affection (see Tom for real affection).  Tres came out smelling like a rose, meanwhile he was nowhere near ready for marriage with anyone, let alone Vanessa.   Vanessa was all pouty because she knew he wasn't into her despite how he acted for the camera.  This show has had other similar situations.  Even Neil to some degree was playing along with the gag for the camera until the very last minute when he dropped the bomb on Sam.  He had no intentions of continuing with her at any point, IMHO.  Tres went past the show just for appearances, IMHO, and because he was into the sex.  He didn't "play games" but I still think he was a very smooth operator.  A car salesman, after all.  I think Vanessa knew deep down that he wasn't ready to settle down and had no intentions of having a truly committed relationship with her, and he probably showed his true colors after the show was over, that's why they split.  I think Sonia knows deep down that Nick is yes-ing for the camera but not really into her.  I don't think the two of them will succeed past decision day.

[ralph]

On 9/13/2016 at 11:20 PM, Madding crowd said:

I thought Lilly was acting like she found out she had cancer or something. I've had two shoulder surgeries and of course no one wants to have a surgery at all but it's not a major surgery. I would consider major surgery to be on an organ. And she appears to be able to lift her arms so I'm thinking maybe it will be arthroscopic surgery. I can see why she wouldn't want to be a burden, but you are usually home the same day and just have to do therapy. Just seemed way too dramatic.

This part hard me ROFL because it's nearly the exact copy of something that happened to me in real life. I got a call from a friend and she was sobbing, and the only words she could get out where "the doctor told me the worse thing a doctor could ever tell someone". Right away, I panicked. "Oh my gosh, she has cancer...but after calming her down and getting her stop crying, she told me it was SHOULDER SURGERY. I felt bad for Lilly (and my friend) because all surgeries carry risk and a little fear---but surgery on your shoulder isn't akin to surgery on an organ or an amputation.

Edited September 15, 2016 by ralph

[ralph]

I'm starting to also agree that Nick might be bisexual. When he was talking to Rachel he kept referring to past partners as "they" or "them". While it's normal to get those out in conversation, for gay or straight people, it would usually be peppered with a he's and she's. I like him and I don't care (I'm bi) but I wonder if the "experts", the producers or Sonia are aware (if he is). I think maybe if he were, they wouldn't reveal it on the show because of people who would respond negatively.

[jamblastx]

1 hour ago, Stillhoping said:

I believe the show will ONLY pay for a divorce and only within 6 months after final show...so Jamie and Doug are outta luck. The couples legally could get an annulment BUT they would have to pay for it themselves

Re the Catholic Church...their rules ONLY apply to Catholics married in the Church by a Priest...sacred matriage. A civil marriage never counted in their eyes. Some of the participants are likely Catholic..whether practicing or not...but they are able to remarry in the Church no problem. 

Not necessarily, my ex-wife and I were married in a Methodist church but it was officiated by a Methodist pastor AND a Catholic priest (I am a Catholic and my ex was a Methodist at the time).  When we had kids a few years later, she converted to Catholicism and when we divorced and she wanted to get remarried, she tried to get our marriage annulled so she could get married in a Catholic church.  Even though our marriage was not in a Catholic church and only half-officiated by a Catholic priest, the Catholic church would not annul our marriage....and for the record I would have LOVED to have been a fly on the wall with that conversation

"Okay Ms. X...it says here that you were married for almost fifteen years, had two kids, freely went into the marriage and were in love at the time......denied.....NEXT!!!!'

[kira28]

18 hours ago, Vinyasa said:

After last night, I am kinda, sorta, maybe thinking Sonia would have been good matched with David.

Seems like she would appreciate a guy like him and he would be attracted to her in time.

Thoughts??

I thought the same thing! I understand we can't help who we are attracted to but I think Sonia is the most attractive female this season .  I think Heather has the nicest body.  I wish nick and Heather had been matched to see his reaction to her.  

I hate that the show is throwing Heather under the bus. Personally I wouldn't write someone off if they like to drink occasionally or if they smoked weed once or twice a year.. But marrying someone who gets up first thing in the morning and starts drinking or smoking weed.. Nope that's definitely a deal breaker.  Also where the heck does derrek work? They show him saying he's going to work and he gets in his car wearing high top tennis shoes and a plaid shirt and jeans I think.  An account Executive? He reminds me of an overgrown teenager.  Heather is miles ahead of the whiny man child in maturity and I'm sure that's part of why she was quick to call it quits

[bichonblitz]

9 hours ago, Snarklepuss said:

You should have seen me when I found out a couple of weeks ago that I might need gallbladder surgery.  I'm 58 and never had surgery before but I'm practically PHOBIC about going under general anesthesia and possible after effects of the procedure.  Everyone acts like it's so routine but I've heard of people dying from much less (remember Joan Rivers).

The difference between your reaction to possibly needing surgery and Lillian is that she attended medical school. Being told that she was going to need shoulder surgery shouldn't have garnered that kind of a reaction from her. Drama queen. She's weird. 

Edited September 15, 2016 by bichonblitz

[nlkm9]

10 hours ago, ExplainItAgain said:

Yes, I think it must be in their contracts that they can't get an annulment. The contracts probably rule out fraud since they don't know exactly what (or who) they are committing to but they sign anyway. Not sure about the other cases for annulment but I'm guessing those contracts are ironclad and very specific.

I do wonder though if it was pot he was smoking, since that is illegal both In Florida and Puerto Rico if that could be considered fraud.

Edited September 15, 2016 by nlkm9

[Neurochick]

11 hours ago, MsPH said:

I'm also kind of tired of someone being labeled as gay every season. Pretty sure there was extensive discussion at least regarding Sean and Neil. Just because you're not a typical alpha male with a raging libido and willingness to have sex on TV show doesn't mean that you're gay. There's so much pressure and so many expectations on this show, I'm surprised any of them are in the mood.

I agree with this.  Is it possible that Nick is just asexual?  I mean why does he have to be gay, straight or bi? Maybe he's just not into sex, period.

[gonecrackers]

I was recalling Rachel's visit with Nick & Sonia morning after the wedding. When she had them look into each others eyes & say 'you are my husband/wife', Sonia started tearing up, & said she was afraid of getting hurt. That definitely shows insecurity right from the start (although I'm not faulting her for it at all).

However, from Nick's perspective on that, maybe having no attraction to her right off, & now knowing her feelings on dogs, separated himself. I am not a fan of Nick's, from what I've seen of him, but I imagine not knowing how this was going to play out between them her emotion could've freaked him out a bit (especially since he isn't good with emotions - his or anyone else). I don't believe he is 'shy', but I do see him as socially inept - in this situation at least - & he may have had zero clue how to handle it & didn't ask anyone for help/advice.

[Drogo]

6 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

Is it possible that Nick is just asexual?  I mean why does he have to be gay, straight or bi? Maybe he's just not into sex, period.

There are also people who are into sex but don't want to have sex in the first few weeks of knowing someone, and people who don't want their first sexual encounter with someone to be directly or indirectly on camera. 

[lh25]

12 hours ago, Verojama said:

Somia too wasnt honest with the experts... She had to specify Phobia of dogs.

I don't trust the show/experts.  She may well have told them, and they decided being with someone who had dogs was good for drama/would help her get over her fears.

[Jax7917]

whether nick is gay or not, i don't know.. i do think he is, but regardless of if he is or isn't, that guy is just creepy. He's so monotone , has no personality, and has no facial expressions. Whether he's gay or isn't, he's clearly not into her. I find Sonia to have a pretty face, but I can see her look not being for everyone. I saw someone mentioned him possibly not being into latinas. Somehow I get the feeling if he was matched with someone who looked like sofia vergara, it would be a different story. It's not always about ethnicity. It can just be about the individual person. There are attractive and unattractive people in every race. I feel like with most other past guys that have been on this show, even if they weren't super attracted, they at least seemed into making it work (for tv probably, but still). Nick just seems completely repulsed, and not even into trying to go beyond a friendship .Their relationship is so awkward, that I feel second hand awkwardness watching them. I too, think she would have been a good match with David. I think she's genuinely looking for a good person, and David would have tried to make it work with anyone.

I know everyone dislikes Derek, but holy moly I cannot stand Heather. She just has such a dead look in her eyes and reminds me of a lizard. I understand not clicking with someone and having the gut feeling that you probably never will regardless of how long you stick it out.. HOWEVER.. I also would not sign up for a show that entails marrying a stranger and committing to try it out for at least 6 weeks if I knew I would get repulsed if everything didn't go my way. I have no doubt that they would have ended in divorce anyway, but she literally did not try at all. I honestly think if they were gonna offer the divorce after 2 weeks option, they should have used it last season for david and stashley. I really think for the upcoming seasons, the "experts" should show the contestants a picture of each other first. As history and current status shows on this show, once the person is not attracted, they check out right away.

[Gem 10]

13 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

I actually find Sonia to be... tiring.  Nick looked relaxed when they were on the hammock and was saying he liked her (or something close) but wasn't in love with her yet.  Sonia gave a sarcastic 'good talk' and left.  Without telling Nick what was bothering her.  That's really immature.  She tells him to open up, he does but says something that she doesn't want to her and it's over.  It's too much of a burden to place on someone if they are always having to step softly around someone not knowing what will set them off.  Also, the next morning when they had their 'talk' she didn't tell him what was wrong.  I really think she expects him to know what she is thinking and to anticipate her needs.  I don't blame Nick for not necessarily being interested in her.  He may have been at some point, but her pattern is repeated over and over (wedding, honeymoon, etc.).   Also, if they stay in the marriage, her debt becomes his debt.

Although I have fallen for the wrong men, I was always aware of their financial situation.  Not that they had to earn more than I did-just that they were working and had their spending under control.  A really good friend of mine found out after her wedding that he couldn't afford her engagement/wedding ring and she had to pay off his debt on it, along with other debts, and is still covering costs.  If Nick had to start paying on Sonia's debt that's a huge financial strain on a new marriage.  

After watching this episode again, I think you ar right.   Sonia is "tiring".  I think he needs someone who can spar with him and understand his humor.  He needs someone who is stronger and can challenge him.  Someone more stimulating.  I know Sonia is a sweetheart, but just doesn't mesh well with Nick.

[gonecrackers]

On the 'experts', I feel this kind of 'arrangement' does not work because they are looking at people - on paper - on whatever impression they choose to give in the various interviews and - with 'TV issues' in mind. I could read a bunch of applications & interview people, get an impression of them, but that's it; it's only an impression. I don't really know anyone. They can't really know any of the people they set up that way. That's why Nick could slip by being pegged as steady, calm, etc, rather than repressed. It's why they wouldn't have picked up on Sonia's insecurities or emotion (or at least, to what degree these are in her personality), & why Derrick could have come off as responsible & mature (IMO he's not either).

But it's just not enough & it's why they cannot compare this kind of thing with true arranged marriages where the people being matched are well known by their matchmakers. - & edited to add, they are being matched by people who really care about them. (presumably - & these folks are not).

Edited September 15, 2016 by gonecrackers

[Empress1]

38 minutes ago, kira28 said:

I thought the same thing! I understand we can't help who we are attracted to but I think Sonia is the most attractive female this season .  I think Heather has the nicest body.  I wish nick and Heather had been matched to see his reaction to her.  

I hate that the show is throwing Heather under the bus. Personally I wouldn't write someone off if they like to drink occasionally or if they smoked weed once or twice a year.. But marrying someone who gets up first thing in the morning and starts drinking or smoking weed.. Nope that's definitely a deal breaker.  Also where the heck does derrek work? They show him saying he's going to work and he gets in his car wearing high top tennis shoes and a plaid shirt and jeans I think.  An account Executive? He reminds me of an overgrown teenager.  Heather is miles ahead of the whiny man child in maturity and I'm sure that's part of why she was quick to call it quits

In fairness, there are lots of casual workplaces. My ex was a bigwig at an ad agency (and "account executive" is a junior level agency title, despite the word "executive") and he wore jeans to work, always. Everyone did. He wore nice expensive jeans with button-downs, but jeans. The junior folks wore jeans and hoodies. I've worked in a casual office before and I wore what I'd wear on casual Friday in a business-casual office.

[1992austenlover]

2 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I agree with this.  Is it possible that Nick is just asexual?  I mean why does he have to be gay, straight or bi? Maybe he's just not into sex, period.

That's possible...or maybe he's just not that into Sonia and doesn't want to complicate things by bringing sex into the equation. I think that the same thing could be said about Sean and Neil--some guys are more thoughtful when it comes to sex and understand the implications that sex can cause in a relationship (especially in this high-pressure environment) which makes them shy away from getting physically intimate until they are certain that they are able and willing to deal with the complications and consequences that inevitably arise from having physical intimacy. I just don't think that Nick is ready to have sex with Sonia yet because he's clearly not attracted to her and as a result, he isn't willing to open that pandora's box, so to speak. Personally, I'm with the people on this board who are tired of the gay accusations. Just because you're a guy and are not comfortable having sex with your stranger wife who you are still trying to figure out does not automatically make you gay. Unfortunately, not all couples can be the second coming of Jason/Courtney, Tres/Vanessa, Tom/Lillian, etc. Some couples need to work a little harder to build chemistry and some guys aren't willing to have sex until they feel that the chemistry is clearly present in the relationship. 

[ZaldamoWilder]

Everything about Nick's prerogative not to pursue physical involvement with Sonia makes perfect sense, if you put aside his claims of attraction.  Upon meeting he said he thought she was beautiful.   He has said it since in non vague ways.  Not just that he thinks she is attractive, but attractive to him.    So as far as I'm concerned, it's perfectly fair game to wonder about the legitimacy of a supposedly heterosexual man spending time in bed with a woman to whom he claims to be drawn physically and chalking that up to introversion or camera shyness (when he volunteered to be on television) without speculating as to another justifiable cause for rejecting her.   If the prospect of women being annoying ever stopped a straight man from having sex, nobody would ever get laid lol.

[1992austenlover]

2 minutes ago, ZaldamoWilder said:

Everything about Nick's prerogative not to pursue physical involvement with Sonia makes perfect sense, if you put aside his claims of attraction.  Upon meeting he said he thought she was beautiful.   He has said it since in non vague ways.  Not just that he thinks she is attractive, but attractive to him.    So as far as I'm concerned, it's perfectly fair game to wonder about the legitimacy of a supposedly heterosexual man spending time in bed with a woman to whom he claims to be drawn physically and chalking that up to introversion or camera shyness (when he volunteered to be on television) without speculating as to another justifiable cause for rejecting her.   If the prospect of women being annoying ever stopped a straight man from having sex, nobody would ever get laid lol.

That's fair but I'm framing my argument around the fact that it's pretty clear to me now that Nick wasn't being completely honest with the cameras when he said that he's attracted to Sonia. After seeing the preview for next week's episode, I strongly believe that Nick's meltdown is a reflection of his true feelings--that he just isn't attracted to Sonia--thus tarnishing all of his previous statements about how he was attracted to her. He might have thought that she was beautiful on her wedding day when she was all dolled up but then changed his mind the next morning...who knows. I just know that Nick's words have not been matching up with his actions so far and I think that the preview finally settled any doubts that one might have about his true feelings for Sonia (or lack thereof). Sadly, he's just not that into her. 

[Vinyasa]

Quote

Sonia is "tiring".  I think he needs someone who can spar with him and understand his humor.  He needs someone who is stronger and can challenge him.  Someone more stimulating.  I know Sonia is a sweetheart, but just doesn't mesh well with Nick.

She is very tiring! From the start of the show, I've wanted to scream at her "just say it, we don't have all day here".

I'm now thinking she is only trying to be or is attracted to Nick because they are married, which is the premise of the show.  So I get  it.

If she was dating this guy for these two weeks, it would be over.

[Enero]

58 minutes ago, ZaldamoWilder said:

Everything about Nick's prerogative not to pursue physical involvement with Sonia makes perfect sense, if you put aside his claims of attraction.  Upon meeting he said he thought she was beautiful.   He has said it since in non vague ways.  Not just that he thinks she is attractive, but attractive to him.    So as far as I'm concerned, it's perfectly fair game to wonder about the legitimacy of a supposedly heterosexual man spending time in bed with a woman to whom he claims to be drawn physically and chalking that up to introversion or camera shyness (when he volunteered to be on television) without speculating as to another justifiable cause for rejecting her.   If the prospect of women being annoying ever stopped a straight man from having sex, nobody would ever get laid lol.

I agree. Not only that but he's said on numerous ocassions that he wants to have sex with Sonia BUT he wanted to build a "friendship" first. Please. What hot blooded heterosexual male would be dead set on building a friendship before having sex with or at the very least being affectionate with a woman he was supposedly attracted to? Which is why Nick's sexuality (also for other reasons) has been questioned. 

That said, I think Sonia is lying to the cameras as well. I don't believe for one second that she's actually attracted to Nick. A woman that bursts out laughing when a man touches her chest or holds her from behind (i.e. the tantric session) is not sexually attracted to that man. I think she prefers a man's man per her quips about Nick's girly tendacies, but she tried to work with what she was given because that's what she signed up for.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Enero

[jamblastx]

1 hour ago, Empress1 said:

In fairness, there are lots of casual workplaces. My ex was a bigwig at an ad agency (and "account executive" is a junior level agency title, despite the word "executive") and he wore jeans to work, always. Everyone did. He wore nice expensive jeans with button-downs, but jeans. The junior folks wore jeans and hoodies. I've worked in a casual office before and I wore what I'd wear on casual Friday in a business-casual office.

Agreed...I too am an Account Executive for a multi-national company and when I meet my clients, I wear a suit and tie but all the other times I am in a t shirt and shorts...then again I work from home.  That said, I did have an office in Manhattan and even there since we did not have client meetings there, it was business casual