Jill, Derick & the Kids: Moving On!!

[Churchhoney]

3 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

“We know that human nature is still there because he’s very manipulative,” says Derick. “He’ll say, ‘I love you, papi,’ like if he’s really trying to get something to butter you up right before he asks for something.”

 

Well Let's get rid of that right quick.

That's the teaching of a lot of the churches and cults in their universe, however. And, of course, it's been the teaching of many civilizations for probably thousands of years. So it's not as if they made it up. It's in the air they breathe. I was quite old before I realized that there were people who thought anything different from that, actually. I'm kind of surprised to see so many people surprised to hear them say it. And in their case it goes with the theology, presumably -- everybody's born into sin and have to be forcibly removed from it. That's what parents are for. And with the new rush of Calvinism out there, it seems to be getting a boost today, too. There are people promoting this all over the internet right now. So these guys are just chiming in with the crowd. Derick is even saying it in that quote in the "theological" way. it's Izzy's fallen human nature that's coming out. And what parents are supposed to do is fight against that nature, until the kid is old enough to thoughtfully convert to Christ on its own. That "human nature" phrase isn't used randomly. Der is following people who consider themselves to be speaking theologically and bringing people to the gospel with this language and these ideas. 

2 hours ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

 

I do think that you are right about how Jessa has not been nearly as challenged as Jill.  But another part of me thinks Jessa would just grab Danger America by the balls and have local people in as volunteers to clean her house and bringing her banana bread and fanning her with a palm frond, etc.  S

When I think of Jessa around her family, I see her kind of like this. But it seems that every time we've seen her outside her family, she actually seems at least as uncomfortable as Jill and maybe even a little more reticent and awkward. She can push people around that she's known all her life, but I don't see much evidence for her being able to navigate situations in which the people are strangers. 

Edited June 17, 2017 by Churchhoney

[Churchhoney]

2 hours ago, JoanArc said:

I really wonder what they think about infants or toddlers going to hell. When's the age of accountability? Keep in mind they seem to consider 13 year olds full adults.

Historically, many Christians did think that all the unsaved, including infants, went to hell. At some point, Catholicism came up with the idea that infants would go to their own limbo....and maybe might possibly kinda sorta end up in heaven by a special dispensation -- but maybe not .... 

Modern fundie-type Protestants are just uncomfortable with the whole thing, because they absolutely don't believe in baptizing a kid before it can choose the baptism itself -- the baptism simply isn't valid if the soul in question can't consciously convert. But they're modern people and not medieval folks comfortable with going to hangings and witch burnings on the weekends, so they try to ignore the fact that those infants are deep in original sin and therefore, by every theological tenet they themselves hold, are hellbound and no mistake about it. .... I kind of think that this may be a big reason for the emphasis on the kind of sin-based parenting-view of babies that we've been talking about -- the feeling that "maybe if I do everything I can to squelch that original sin in the child, he'll somehow magically be saved" -- and also the phenomenon of fundies like David Waller and Jingle supposedly consciously declaring themselves miserable sinners and converting to Christ at absurd ages like three and five. ... It's just like the Catholic invention of a special baby limbo that might even have a door to heaven in it somewhere. They really really don't want little tiny kids to go to hell, but their theology puts them in a bind by kind of requiring it in order to be consistent. 

Edited June 17, 2017 by Churchhoney

[Celia Rubenstein]

12 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

When I think of Jessa around her family, I see her kind of like this. But it seems that every time we've seen her outside her family, she actually seems at least as uncomfortable as Jill and maybe even a little more reticent and awkward. She can push people around that she's known all her life, but I don't see much evidence for her being able to navigate situations in which the people are strangers. 

That's a good point.  But I wonder if Jessa would be as intimidated by locals in DA as she was by unfamiliar Americans.  I could see her thinking they were just simple heathens and nothing to be afraid of.  Maybe she would find them even more frightening, I dunno lol

How was Jessa on some of the vacation shows where she was forced to rub elbows with native people?  Does anyone remember? 

[Churchhoney]

19 minutes ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

That's a good point.  But I wonder if Jessa would be as intimidated by locals in DA as she was by unfamiliar Americans.  I could see her thinking they were just simple heathens and nothing to be afraid of.  Maybe she would find them even more frightening, I dunno lol

How was Jessa on some of the vacation shows where she was forced to rub elbows with native people?  Does anyone remember? 

She wouldn't speak their language. That's very intimidating for most people, as far as I know. It's clearly one of the issues that Jill has, I'm sure. ... Jessa wouldn't know what the people might be saying about her behind her back! I haven't really watched the other shows except for a couple of minutes here and there, but I did look at quite a bit of the honeymoon episode, and she didn't seem all that comfortable. And the snippets I have seen of the Duggars-go-on-Latin-American-dum-dum-mission stuff at least suggest that Jill was one who did bond with some kids there, maybe get a little closer to them or at least feel personally involved. It's not proof that Jessa didn't, but I don't recall ever hearing that about Jessa. 

I just really see Jessa as one of those people who can talk a very very good game in their comfort zone. But out of it, not so much. .... Who knows, though. 

Edited June 17, 2017 by Churchhoney

[Marigold]

4 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Except really, what has Jessa had to cope with. Moving a few miles away from home into a house and neighborhood she's familiar with? Going home daily for help with her kids? Having a husband who pauses school to stay home with her? Having her 'friends' nearby?

I think we'd be seeing a different Jessa if she was over in CA during Spurgie's first year.

I specifically meant Josh. I think Jessa handled and handles the molestation better than Jill.  Maybe Jessa is wired differently.  Maybe the girls were molested differently (I don't want to speculate on that too much) and Jill had more trauma from the incidents.  Maybe Jessa represses and will just crack one day.  

But yes, jessa would struggle in Central America also.  I think anyone would. A new baby, a foreign place, not speaking the language, away from family/friends after living such a sheltered life, inconsistent water & electricity.   

Jill just seems more fragile overall. Of course, marrying such a nutcase like Derick hasn't helped matters either.  He has been through his share of stuff with the young death of his father, his mother almost losing her life to cancer, her intense treatment, whatever disastrous surgery he had, this puking health problem etc. 

[lascuba]

4 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Except really, what has Jessa had to cope with. Moving a few miles away from home into a house and neighborhood she's familiar with? Going home daily for help with her kids? Having a husband who pauses school to stay home with her? Having her 'friends' nearby?

I think we'd be seeing a different Jessa if she was over in CA during Spurgie's first year.

I'm not saying Jessa has had anything major to cope with, but...Ben? For all the talk of him being a henpecked husband, I can see her biting her tongue a LOT in that marriage. I got the feeling that marriage was going to be problematic when they were courting and Jessa made that crack about Ben's "I want to give you all the flowers in the world." I could be wrong, of course, and maybe opposites do balance each other out, but I don't buy that the marriage is an entirely happy one for Jessa. I imagine her repressing herself a lot to keep Ben happy.  Jessa is the only one in that family who would openly react to JB's asinine statements; she immediately jumped in to try to justify Jill's stupid hysteria over a shower rack; she knows when people are being stupid and ridiculous and has the sense enough to be embarrassed by them. Ben's a dumbass and she HAS to know that. She likely sees it as a small price to pay for an allegedly easy-going husband, but I can't imagine it's not eating at her soul a bit.

54 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

 

When I think of Jessa around her family, I see her kind of like this. But it seems that every time we've seen her outside her family, she actually seems at least as uncomfortable as Jill and maybe even a little more reticent and awkward. She can push people around that she's known all her life, but I don't see much evidence for her being able to navigate situations in which the people are strangers. 

Yeah, Jill has/had the advantage of enthusiasm and perkiness along with her bossiness--she doesn't care about embarrassing herself, and if it weren't for the language barrier, the lack of amenities she's used to,  and  the shock of not instantly being worshiped as a savior, she might have been much happier in DA. Jessa doesn't do well with strangers at all, though maybe she'd be ok if she came in as a boss of a group with a specific job to accomplish. A task as nebulous as, "talk people into GothardJesus" would never work for her.  Though she wouldn't be weepy and close to a breakdown if she had gone to DA under the same circumstances that Jill did. She'd hate it, but she'd be fine. 

[IntoTheMystic]

Good Lord and a Quarter, y'all. I was looking at the earlier Derek episodes and he truly looked so much better before Izzy came along. Yes, his teeth were a bit jacked up, but it was part of what made him somewhat handsome, imho. Now his teeth look too big for his head. I don't know if it's because of the weight loss or if he got veneers or what, but it's just too much mouth going on. His front teeth are hella wrong. Bless his heart. He's so simple and his mouth is so complicated. I can't figure out why on earth he did that to himself. If it's a vanity thing . . . well, he failed. I don't like Jill's gummy smile either, but her teeth fit her head. Derek's don't. At all. I wonder if the dental stuff is such a fail because he can't get decent care in South America or what happened, but it's not working.

 

[GeeGolly]

8 hours ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

Heaven forbid I disagree with anything you say, Baaaaaabe,  but I have to wonder about this.

I do think that you are right about how Jessa has not been nearly as challenged as Jill.  But another part of me thinks Jessa would just grab Danger America by the balls and have local people in as volunteers to clean her house and bringing her banana bread and fanning her with a palm frond, etc.  She would have ordered Bin to catch that shower rack before it hit the ground!  Cuz' she's kind of bossy and controlling and demanding strong like that.  She has a powerfulness about herself that Jill completely lacks.  

I actually think of all the grown kids, Jill is the most unsuited for this life as a (pretend) missionary which she has embarked upon.  Jana, Jinger ... hell even Joy would be better at it than Jill.  

 

Yeah, I remember that.  And I believe Jill thought she would be an ultra mom, too.  The reality has sure worked out quite differently, hasn't it?  She's not at all the baby machine Michelle is.  And she doesn't seem to enjoy being a mom at all, much less really rock as one.  It must suck to realize that the entire basis of the life you anticipated for yourself is one big groaning drag.  Add to that a "job" which has isolated her within a pseudo-ministry that she obviously dislikes, a crappy husband who doesn't treasure her the same way her father treasures her mother.  A history of abuse she cannot manage to put behind her. 

No wonder she is so visibly down in the dumps all the time.  

If she wasn't such a sanctimonious cow, I would be inclined to start a "free Jill" movement. 

My dearest Headship you bring up some strong points.

In many shows Jessa is shown strong handing her family but the minute she has to interact with others she becomes quiet and uncomfortable. In the Jinger & Jessa serve coffee episode it was Jinger who was comfortable and not Jessa and the same is true for Jessa's engagement scavenger hunt. The only interaction with others I can remember from her honeymoon was when she told a Chef that she is used to cooking for 18 siblings. Watching her interact with Flash/Flame/Fire(?) and his crew was painful, very much in contrast in the way she interacted with her siblings with Jeremy present.

Jessa steps it up when she feels better/smarter than others and she pushes herself a tad bit when out of her comfort zone when it involves keeping the show going.

Jill is like an 8 year old who has been told Santa isn't real. Luckily for kids they just move on to the next shiny thing. I think Jill's still trying to figure out what it all means, while waiting for her happiness to return.

[dorcastrilling]

12 hours ago, queenanne said:

I don't guarantee everyone thinks the same thing, but I read somewhere it's at least teenaged.  It can't be infants, I don't think even the Duggars could be that stupid.  A baby neither possesses nor can articulate thoughts and beliefs, which would logically be by intelligent design if you believe in that.

Catholic here, parochial schools. I was confirmed in second grade, the age of accountability at the time was 7. My much younger brother was not confirmed until 7th grade, so accountability age had been raised by then. I think it has gone back down, but not sure what age they confirm in the church now.

[GeeGolly]

I thought it was infant baptism, 2nd grade communion, and 11th grade confirmation for Catholicism. 

[kokapetl]

On 15/06/2017 at 0:28 PM, Nysha said:

Girls names ending in "el" are more limited than boys, but there's Ariel, Bethel, Jael, Katriel, Lael, and Zuriel.

Ms Ariel Sharon Dillard. 

[RazzleberryPie]

Baptists don't have a set age for accountability. It's individual. No confirmation. No infant baptism/christening, etc.

[GeeGolly]

They'll just tack "el" onto anything they like; Jillel, Sarrel, Joyel, etc

[dorcastrilling]

9 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I thought it was infant baptism, 2nd grade communion, and 11th grade confirmation for Catholicism. 

Not when I was school age, but I am old. I started school 10 years before my youngest brother was born.

The bishop did a confirmation  tour of all the parochial schools in the state, so my Irish twin oder brother actually made his in first grade, the year the bishop was down our area. I guess the accountability age of 7 was tweaked to suit bishop availability, had never thought of that before.

 

I do know Communion is now 2nd grade if you attend parochial school. Public school kids who attend weekly CCD rather than have religion class daily have to be in third.

[queenanne]

12 hours ago, Christina87 said:

I'm not sure why derrick is bothered that the human nature is "still" there. Still, at the ripe old age of two!!! Did he think it was as easy as one slap on the butt, and any trace of humanity would be gone for good?

I don't know if he is vastly bothered by it as an abstract concept (then again, he is a trained accountant, and maybe doesn't do so well with abstractions in the day-to-day).  I think he, like Jill, is very concerned with what other people think of him as a parent and as a parent turning out "real grown-up Christians".  We don't have any idea what kind of pressure their little nuclear family receives behind the scenes as part of churning out "The First Duggar Grandchild".

11 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

That's the teaching of a lot of the churches and cults in their universe, however. And, of course, it's been the teaching of many civilizations for probably thousands of years. So it's not as if they made it up. It's in the air they breathe. I was quite old before I realized that there were people who thought anything different from that, actually. I'm kind of surprised to see so many people surprised to hear them say it. And in their case it goes with the theology, presumably -- everybody's born into sin and have to be forcibly removed from it. That's what parents are for. And with the new rush of Calvinism out there, it seems to be getting a boost today, too. There are people promoting this all over the internet right now. So these guys are just chiming in with the crowd. Derick is even saying it in that quote in the "theological" way. it's Izzy's fallen human nature that's coming out. And what parents are supposed to do is fight against that nature, until the kid is old enough to thoughtfully convert to Christ on its own. That "human nature" phrase isn't used randomly. Der is following people who consider themselves to be speaking theologically and bringing people to the gospel with this language and these ideas. 

When I think of Jessa around her family, I see her kind of like this. But it seems that every time we've seen her outside her family, she actually seems at least as uncomfortable as Jill and maybe even a little more reticent and awkward. She can push people around that she's known all her life, but I don't see much evidence for her being able to navigate situations in which the people are strangers. 

 

10 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Historically, many Christians did think that all the unsaved, including infants, went to hell. At some point, Catholicism came up with the idea that infants would go to their own limbo....and maybe might possibly kinda sorta end up in heaven by a special dispensation -- but maybe not .... 

Modern fundie-type Protestants are just uncomfortable with the whole thing, because they absolutely don't believe in baptizing a kid before it can choose the baptism itself -- the baptism simply isn't valid if the soul in question can't consciously convert. But they're modern people and not medieval folks comfortable with going to hangings and witch burnings on the weekends, so they try to ignore the fact that those infants are deep in original sin and therefore, by every theological tenet they themselves hold, are hellbound and no mistake about it. .... I kind of think that this may be a big reason for the emphasis on the kind of sin-based parenting-view of babies that we've been talking about -- the feeling that "maybe if I do everything I can to squelch that original sin in the child, he'll somehow magically be saved" -- and also the phenomenon of fundies like David Waller and Jingle supposedly consciously declaring themselves miserable sinners and converting to Christ at absurd ages like three and five. ... It's just like the Catholic invention of a special baby limbo that might even have a door to heaven in it somewhere. They really really don't want little tiny kids to go to hell, but their theology puts them in a bind by kind of requiring it in order to be consistent. 

I'm not surprised anyone thinks Derick thinks it; I'm surprised that (a) he seemed to say it like he thought he was reinventing the wheel and it comes as a complete surprise to him; (b) that the *People interviewer* just sat there and nodded numbly and dumbly in response to this, instead of looking at him as if he'd grown two heads.  I know it's not the "born-again Christian" worldview; but I don't expect some random Millennial hired by People not to be surprised by this, because it's certainly and emphatically not "sinful modern; read, the entire rest of the civilized world", idea of child behavior.  

That's even the point of deciding the "age of accountability" is something ridiculous like 5.  It's "the age they're first going to be open to brainwashing, at which point we can then shove them through a sinner's prayer and not feel guilty about it, because it's also the first age at which they've vaguely developed the ability to understand choice".   Clearly they don't want tiny kids to go to hell; thus the shoving and pushing as soon as they can lisp words.  Show me the 4-year-old who is in fact going to say no to "Now, do you want to go to heaven with mommy and daddy and Siblings when they die; or do you want to go to 'the bad place' and then never see any of us, never ever ever again times infinity?"  Hell, leave out the "hell", and they're going to aver that *absolutely* they don't want to be separated from everyone else.  (Psst... sorry, TDFW.  *I don't consider that real repentance or commitment.*  Where is the space for "Well, hey, this action you take, however, won't stop pain and suffering, sometimes enormous, coming into your or anyone else's life", for example?)  Christians even have a vested interest in it because they boast about it to adults hither and yon.  "The salvation message is so plain and comprehendable *even four year olds understand it when it is 'explained' to them*!"

Edited June 17, 2017 by queenanne

[Churchhoney]

14 minutes ago, queenanne said:

 

 

I'm not surprised anyone thinks Derick thinks it; I'm surprised that (a) he seemed to say it like he thought he was reinventing the wheel 

Well, that doesn't surprise me either, since I think the Duggs and the Dugg adjacents say everything as if they're inventing the wheel, don't they? 

"I drink coffee" as if, you know, she's the first person who ever drank any. Etc.  ;  )

[Scarlett45]

12 hours ago, Marigold said:

I specifically meant Josh. I think Jessa handled and handles the molestation better than Jill.  Maybe Jessa is wired differently.  Maybe the girls were molested differently (I don't want to speculate on that too much) and Jill had more trauma from the incidents.  Maybe Jessa represses and will just crack one day.  

But yes, jessa would struggle in Central America also.  I think anyone would. A new baby, a foreign place, not speaking the language, away from family/friends after living such a sheltered life, inconsistent water & electricity.   

Jill just seems more fragile overall. Of course, marrying such a nutcase like Derick hasn't helped matters either.  He has been through his share of stuff with the young death of his father, his mother almost losing her life to cancer, her intense treatment, whatever disastrous surgery he had, this puking health problem etc. 

I think Jessa has more of a "stand up" personality to her which can come of as bitchy. As far as Josh is concerned she probably made it clear that she did NOT like him, thought he was a perv and knew instinctually that what happened was his fault not hers no matter what the dogma was. Any "hushing" she did was to keep the family business afloat. She isn't one to let Josh bully her, where as I think Jill is more sensitive and takes things to heart, internalizes things. 

[88Keys]

"Babies are sinful and can go to hell" is a Calvinist belief.  Please don't think that all Protestants, or even all Evangelicals, believe this.  I know Calvinism has made a big comeback in recent years (BELIEVE me, I know...), but they are still a relatively small portion of Christians overall.  I'm a non-denominational Christian, as are many of my friends and family.  I don't know a single person who believes babies can go to hell, except for a few of my former friends who went down the Calvinist trail.

 

Quote

I don't know if he is vastly bothered by it as an abstract concept (then again, he is a trained accountant, and maybe doesn't do so well with abstractions in the day-to-day).  I think he, like Jill, is very concerned with what other people think of him as a parent and as a parent turning out "real grown-up Christians".  We don't have any idea what kind of pressure their little nuclear family receives behind the scenes as part of churning out "The First Duggar Grandchild".

I would guess that Derrick (did I spell that right?  Meh, whatever) is bothered by his son's normal toddler behavior because he is a Calvinist.  It's hard to explain, but they believe that God chooses some for salvation and others for damnation.  You don't get to choose to be saved, because that would be "salvation by works."   If God chooses someone for salvation, He pulls them to Himself by "irresistible grace" that the person cannot resist.  If He doesn't, that person is screwed.  Never mind that The Bible often talks about people making choices, or repenting, of their own free will.  "Believe in your heart and confess with your mouth and you will be saved."  I guess they just skip over those verses. 

Parents are supposed to raise their children in the fear and admonition of the Lord, so they can "become regenerate," whatever that means.  It makes no sense- if God chooses who to save, then why should parents do anything?  Their kid will either be saved or be damned no matter what they do.  But people who get caught up in this mindset tend to double down on it.  I realize that was a lot of words, but my point is, Derrick and Jill may very well be in fear for Izzy's soul.  They are probably afraid if they don't do everything right, he won't be saved.  Once that mindset takes hold, it is hard to break.  Jill was also raised with the teachings of Bill Gothard, which doesn't help.  Gothard's teachings are heavily Calvinist. 

I realize how unlikable Jill is, but I really do feel for her.  PPD is a real bitch.  To have a baby and immediately move to a foreign country where you probably feel isolated and alone, and to have something terrible that happened to you in your childhood be brought back to the surface, plus the pressure to keep the "Duggar brand" going... well, that's a lot to deal with.  And being raised this way, she probably doesn't have the understanding of what is wrong, or the tools to deal with it. 

I also feel even worse for her after seeing that picture of her having to serve her abuser a soda.  WHAT IN THE ACTUAL HELL?!

Edited June 17, 2017 by 88Keys
opinion, not fact

[DangerousMinds]

So Calvinists attend  Baptist churches? All so confusing to this Catholic turned atheist.

[BradandJanet]

Spanking babies is about control and obedience, essential for the patriarchal cult to function. Sin is an excuse to justify it. 

[Churchhoney]

22 minutes ago, 88Keys said:

 

 

I would guess that Derrick (did I spell that right?  Meh, whatever) is bothered by his son's normal toddler behavior because he is a Calvinist. 

The thing is, though, these days Calvinism seems to be creeping all around. Derick's been Southern Baptist his whole life and goes to Ronnie Floyd's Cross Church still, when he's in Arkansas, and I don't think they've gone Reformed yet, have they? At least not openly. It's only been a few years since Floyd was SBC president......

Nevertheless, this stuff is in the air, and Derick's certainly been picking it up, although I wonder whether he even knows for sure what Calvinists are and how they're different from other brands. And you're really seeing pieces of Calvinism in what to me, anyway, are all sorts of surprising places, including the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, where longtime head Albert Mohler appears to have glued a big chunk of Calvin onto his beliefs. So it's getting a lot harder to separate Calvinists from others in the U.S. these days, I think. You've got evangelical churches of all kinds that are picking up Calvinism, megachurches and so on. 

It sees odd to me that it's becoming so popular, but I think it's clear that it is in the cultural atmosphere big time, today, and much much more so than in the recent past. It's all over the internet, too. 

Edited June 17, 2017 by Churchhoney

[RazzleberryPie]

11 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

So Calvinists attend  Baptist churches? All so confusing to this Catholic turned atheist.

Some do. It's very confusing. http://www.astudyofdenominations.com/denominations/calvinism/

[Nysha]

I wasn't raised Calvinist, but every church I've gone to believed that babies are born sinners, but none believed they would go to hell. 13 is what they believe to be the age of accountability; a child could be saved before that, but wouldn't go to hell if he/she wasn't saved. This is why most of the churches I've gone to had very good youth programs, to save these kids before they died and went to hell.

I think Jill was more traumatized by Josh than she is allowed to express and she projects that trauma onto Israel. His life is really going to suck if/when they manage to have a girl. 

[Fosca]

3 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

They'll just tack "el" onto anything they like; Jillel, Sarrel, Joyel, etc

Don't forget Kal-El and Jor-El!

[Jynnan tonnix]

15 minutes ago, Fosca said:

Don't forget Kal-El and Jor-El!

Ha! I was going to say the same thing :)

[Churchhoney]

And little Gotoo-el

and Burnin-el and Whatthe-el

Edited June 17, 2017 by Churchhoney

[Jynnan tonnix]

19 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

And little Gotoo-el

and Burnin-el and Whatthe-el

Hahhahahahahahahahaha!!!

[JennyMominFL]

I'm sorry, but it's a screwed up religion to believe that 13 yo kids will burn in hell for not believing in your brand of god. I just don't understand what the Duggars find good in the god they believe in.

[queenanne]

1 hour ago, Nysha said:

I wasn't raised Calvinist, but every church I've gone to believed that babies are born sinners, but none believed they would go to hell. 13 is what they believe to be the age of accountability; a child could be saved before that, but wouldn't go to hell if he/she wasn't saved. This is why most of the churches I've gone to had very good youth programs, to save these kids before they died and went to hell.

I think Jill was more traumatized by Josh than she is allowed to express and she projects that trauma onto Israel. His life is really going to suck if/when they manage to have a girl. 

Thanks; pretty sure that is my understanding of my own raising from childhood churches but couldn't articulate it that well.  I feel I've also heard whispers of some churches caving and pushing it back even farther, now that we've found new research on how the decision-making corner of the brain is one of the last to be fully formed (some are saying mid-twenties.  The brain activity studies, not the churches.  I don't think I ever heard of a church contemplating stretching it later than 18.)

[tabloidlover]

Do we have any guesses on when Jill is due?   I have a bad feeling about it.

[ginger90]

5 minutes ago, tabloidlover said:

Do we have any guesses on when Jill is due?   I have a bad feeling about it.

At Joy's wedding, she said she was In the middle of the third trimester, which I found to be very strange wording. Guess she didn't know how many weeks??

[Sew Sumi]

She knows. She just isn't saying, likely to avoid the criticism she got for mismanaging Izzy's birth.

[Arwen Evenstar]

Found it amusing that Jessa walked down the aisle with the groomsman and Dustbin didn't push him out of the way this time.  Muffy walked down the aisle by herself.  I guess they learned after much backlash on SM that such behavior is boorish and socially embarrassing.  Best of all, no public makeout from all the marrieds!

i also thought it was funny watching the hopelessly uncoordinated Derick flailing around like Olive Oyl!

Edited June 17, 2017 by Arwen Evenstar

[Sew Sumi]

All of the stupid grabbing happens during the recessional, which they didn't show save Joy and Austin running to ditch the glitterbombing. I wouldn't put it past Derelict to have crashed it to proclaim that his dick still works.

[ginger90]

9 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

She knows. She just isn't saying, likely to avoid the criticism she got for mismanaging Izzy's birth.

Yeah, of course she knows, but she doesn't want us to know. She does realize "middle of the third trimester" isn't difficult math, correct? oh wait.......

[lookeyloo]

55 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

All of the stupid grabbing happens during the recessional, which they didn't show save Joy and Austin running to ditch the glitterbombing. I wouldn't put it past Derelict to have crashed it to proclaim that his dick still works.

Or to make us think it does.

[Sew Sumi]

Well, it has twice. 

Wanna bet there is little to no sex in Danger America due to Zika? No way an ass like Derelict wraps it up.

[Temperance]

8 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I thought it was infant baptism, 2nd grade communion, and 11th grade confirmation for Catholicism. 

The first two absolutely. Confirmation is a bit trickier. Some churches do it as young as 5th or 6th grade and some as late as 11th or 12th grade. I would say an average time now  for confirmation is around 8th or 9th grade. 

Edited June 17, 2017 by Temperance

[Mya]

2 minutes ago, Temperance said:

The first two absolutely. Confirmation is a bit trickier. Some churches do it as young as 5th or 6th grade and some as late as 11th or 12th grade. I would say an average time now  for confirmation is around 8th or 9th grade. 

I am Catholic and we do it the same here Baptism infant, 2nd grade communion and 8th grade confirmation.  

[Jynnan tonnix]

I was confirmed in probably 8th grade...I only remember because there is a picture of me in the house we had before I started high school. I'd been in  Sunday school and CCD classes forever (my dad taught a bunch of them) but it evidently never made an impression. Guess I wasn't paying attention. I don't think it ever really occurred to me that confirmation classes meant I was committing to something. I just took the quizzes and answered the questions. But I think I  was probably secretly an atheist since I was 9 or 10 at the latest....None of it ever resonated with me in the least or made any sort of sense...I suppose I must have been a bit of a disappointment (and am obviously going to hell).

[Caracoa1]

Jill doesn't want to give out her due date because she is planning on a dangerous home birth against medical advice after Israel's botched birth.  She caught hell from the public and doesn't want anyone to know what she is up to.  She has only herself to blame...if she had been under the care of a certified midwife or obstetrician they would have caught Izzy being in the wrong position earlier, they would have caught that he was a big baby and never would have allowed her to go 2 weeks past her due date...she is a huge fool to attempt a home birth as it looks like she is carrying yet another large baby and I seriously don't think she had any medical care during her pregnancy.  Dont these people care about their own lives?

[Westiepeach]

4 minutes ago, Caracoa1 said:

Jill doesn't want to give out her due date because she is planning on a dangerous home birth against medical advice after Israel's botched birth.  She caught hell from the public and doesn't want anyone to know what she is up to.  She has only herself to blame...if she had been under the care of a certified midwife or obstetrician they would have caught Izzy being in the wrong position earlier, they would have caught that he was a big baby and never would have allowed her to go 2 weeks past her due date...she is a huge fool to attempt a home birth as it looks like she is carrying yet another large baby and I seriously don't think she had any medical care during her pregnancy.  Dont these people care about their own lives?

Agreed. At some point someone's luck is going to run out. Unfortunately. 

[sometimesy]

I think Jill will have a hospital birth. Would she endanger her future fertility, and her only value to the cult, by a botched home VBAC? Babies, because who cares about children, are the entire raison d'etre for this crew, so I don't think they will risk losing one. 

[BitterApple]

It's illegal for a lay midwife to do a VBAC in Arkansas. How's Jill going to get around that? I'm assuming, she'd just say she had an unattended birth?

Edited June 17, 2017 by BitterApple

[floridamom]

I think Jill has been deliberately quite about her due date because she doesn't want to be criticized when she goes past it again hoping for that successful home birth. If this child is as large as Izzy, I think she'll have the same issues during labor. If she doesn't have a properly trained OB/GYN and deliver in a medical facility this time, she's an idiot, IMO. Her own ego is clearly more important to her than the safe delivery of her second son. For people who view babies as direct gifts from God, they sure don't take good care of them in utero or after they're born.

[floridamom]

Fellow Catholic here....yes, infant baptism, 2nd grade (age 7-8, age of reason) Communion, 7th-9th grade (age 13-15, age or discernment) Confirmation. My parish in NY confirmed in the 5th grade, age 11; I remember my Communion and Confirmation very well because it was a big deal in my family; a right of passage. I admit, we're pretty young to be confirmed; (to take those baptismal vows for yourself when you're older) because you can't answer for yourself when you're an infant, so godparents speak for you and you're in the fold, so to say, marked with the sign of faith. I believe every group has their rituals, belief systems and interpretation of what that Being is up there, out there. I think we all are right...eastern faiths also, those that are not Christian...we all have a piece of the pie and if we live a good life, help and love others, do no harm to our fellow human beings or animals on the earth; generally be a good, kind, peaceful person, it will be 'good' for us in what comes after this life. I believe we are still 'aware" in the next world because we are energy and our energy continues in some form. The 'hell' people talk about, I think, is a loss of that awareness and an empty feeling of "nothingness", no past, no present, no future and lonliness for all eternity with no end.

[Adeejay]

20 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Wen I think of Jessa around her family, I see her kind of like this. But it seems that every time we've seen her outside her family, she actually seems at least as uncomfortable as Jill and maybe even a little more reticent and awkward.

Jessa seems more awkward around "outsiders" than Jill, and Jinger seems the most comfortable. 

[JennyMominFL]

9 minutes ago, floridamom said:

Fellow Catholic here....yes, infant baptism, 2nd grade (age 7-8, age of reason) Communion, 7th-9th grade (age 13-15, age or discernment) Confirmation. My parish in NY confirmed in the 5th grade, age 11; I remember my Communion and Confirmation very well because it was a big deal in my family; a right of passage. I admit, we're pretty young to be confirmed; (to take those baptismal vows for yourself when you're older) because you can't answer for yourself when you're an infant, so godparents speak for you and you're in the fold, so to say, marked with the sign of faith. I believe every group has their rituals, belief systems and interpretation of what that Being is up there, out there. I think we all are right...eastern faiths also, those that are not Christian...we all have a piece of the pie and if we live a good life, help and love others, do no harm to our fellow human beings or animals on the earth; generally be a good, kind, peaceful person, it will be 'good' for us in what comes after this life. I believe we are still 'aware" in the next world because we are energy and our energy continues in some form. The 'hell' people talk about, I think, is a loss of that awareness and an empty feeling of "nothingness", no past, no present, no future and lonliness for all eternity with no end.

I was confirmed in 9th grade and I still couldn't really answer for myself. I did it because I had no choice in my family. I didn't mean a word of it. I think it should come when one is an adult.

I never believed in hell at all and it's not really a Jewish Concept either.

[ChiCricket]

3 hours ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

I was confirmed in probably 8th grade...I only remember because there is a picture of me in the house we had before I started high school. I'd been in  Sunday school and CCD classes forever (my dad taught a bunch of them) but it evidently never made an impression. Guess I wasn't paying attention. 

I was confirmed in the Lutheran church in eight grade..with only going to look into the door of the first class.

I was horribly, painfully, shy, and I looked in, didn't recognise ANY of the kids in the class. I then proceeded to escape to my beloved library across the street and read my heart out until the class was finishing. Then I went across the street to the church  to wait for my dad to pick me up. Wash, rinse, repeat every week until it was time to be confirmed...and they LET me (it was a huge class, I'm sure I just blended in)

 To bring it back to the Duggers, I might as well have BEEN one, since I probably got as much real religion education as they have gotten.  ;-)

Edited June 18, 2017 by ChiCricket
'Cuz

[Jynnan tonnix]

2 minutes ago, ChiCricket said:

I was confirmed in the Lutheran church in eight grade..with only going to look into the door of the first class.

I was horribly, painfully, shy, and I looked in, didn't recognise ANY of the kids in the class. I then proceeded to escape to my beloved library across the street and read my heart out until the class was finishing. Then I went across the street to the church  to wait for my dad to pick me up. Wash, rinse, repeat every week until it was time to confirmed...and they LET me (it was a huge class, I'm sure I just blended in)

 To bring it back to the Duggers, I might as well have BEEN one, since I probably got as much real religion education as they have gotten.  ;-)

adore this whole story!!!