Jill, Derick & the Kids: Moving On!!

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, Temperance said:

Austin went to Israel for his honeymoon. They came home wearing One For Israel shirts. One For Israel is an organization that seeks to convert Jewish people. They had been volunteering with the organization on the honeymoon. Derick at least tried the local food when he was traveling. Austin said he and Joy tried to eat American foods as much as possible and that there should be a law requiring all countries to have American chain restaurants. (This was in segment where the couples discussed honeymoons while John David and Abbie were on their honeymoon.)  

I do think putting Israel in school could be a publicity stunt or they could change their minds about him going to school. But poor Gideon will probably be homeschooled by Joy. 

Austin is certainly more likable and better-looking, but he's easily the most conservative. He has shown through his words and actions that he is just like his in-laws and parents. 

I'm not making the connection between not eating local food with being religiously conservative. And volunteering for a few days during a honeymoon compared to a year in Nepal and nearly a year in Central America seems to me that Austin evangelized when the opportunity arose rather than devoting substantial amount of time to it.

I haven't formed an opinion on whether Austin is likable or not because he reveals so little of himself on the show, as well as on SM. And while I don't find any of the husbands extremely unattractive, I wouldn't say any of them would have been my type when I was younger. In fact the one that many on here find the most attractive has the least physical appeal to me.

[fonfereksglen]

1 hour ago, Temperance said:

Austin went to Israel for his honeymoon. They came home wearing One For Israel shirts. One For Israel is an organization that seeks to convert Jewish people. They had been volunteering with the organization on the honeymoon. Derick at least tried the local food when he was traveling. Austin said he and Joy tried to eat American foods as much as possible and that there should be a law requiring all countries to have American chain restaurants. (This was in segment where the couples discussed honeymoons while John David and Abbie were on their honeymoon.)  

I do think putting Israel in school could be a publicity stunt or they could change their minds about him going to school. But poor Gideon will probably be homeschooled by Joy. 

Austin is certainly more likable and better-looking, but he's easily the most conservative. He has shown through his words and actions that he is just like his in-laws and parents. 

Austin and Joy's little one just turned two. He has always seemed happy.

Que sera, sera.

 

[Zella]

I think it is hard to know what many of them think because I think Derick's firing from TLC may have scared them into being quieter on social media. I know Derick swears up and down he wasn't fired, but his response to this comment on it before he rewrote the narrative makes me think, yeah, his ass was totally fired. 

In any event, I suspect Austin always had a different personality than Derick, so it wouldn't surprise me if he was more likely to keep his views to himself just because he seems less interested in attention than Derick does in general, but he also married Joy just a matter of months before Derick was fired. It wouldn't surprise me if that put all the Duggars and their adjacents on notice. So, I could see how that would just reinforce for any of them but especially someone who tended to be less vocal on social media anyway to keep their most offensive views to themselves.

I know people have mentioned Ben also used to post more openly hateful stuff on social media. Did that stop after Derick was fired or did he put a sock in it beforehand? 

Edited February 25, 2020 by Zella

[hathorlive]

3 hours ago, Temperance said:

 Derick at least tried the local food when he was traveling.

I do think putting Israel in school could be a publicity stunt or they could change their minds about him going to school. But poor Gideon will probably be homeschooled by Joy.

Derrick and Jill are often pictured with people from different cultures.  I'm not saying it's not a conversion tactic, but I don't think Jill will be clutching her boho necklace (cause she probably doesn't own any pearls) if Israel brings home a Hispanic friend. Heck, it's another "dear friend" to steal recipes from.

I shudder at Joy teaching anything but flipflop 101. 

[Spencer Hastings]

14 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

Derrick and Jill are often pictured with people from different cultures.  I'm not saying it's not a conversion tactic, but I don't think Jill will be clutching her boho necklace (cause she probably doesn't own any pearls) if Israel brings home a Hispanic friend. Heck, it's another "dear friend" to steal recipes from.

I shudder at Joy teaching anything but flipflop 101. 

Yeah, I wouldn’t worry about sending my little imaginary black children to play with Israel after school because Jill and Derick don’t seem to be wildly uncomfortable around people with pigment in their skin.  Despite some of their other short falls, they seem to be open to other cultures to an extent (homophobia notwithstanding).  Some of these other fools? Nope. 

[lookeyloo]

Derick manages to get to his law school classes it seems so maybe a schedule is possible and Israel won’t be late. 

[SMama]

If Derick is the one dropping off Israel. Wasn’t the kid worried about who would cook him breakfast when Derick started law school?

[floridamom]

My take on Israel's schedule is that it will be Derick who gets up before Jill, gets Izzy ready for school and drives him to school on his way to work/class. I highly doubt that Jill could keep it up day after day.....school is EVERY DAY, Jill....rain or shine.

Israel should be in bed by 8:00pm; Sam should be in bed by 7:30 pm.....every night.

[kokapetl]

15 hours ago, Tasya said:

I don't know the demographics of the school system they are in, but unless they are in a low income area, they probably won't come in contact with too much "off color" stuff at Israel's age. I've worked in the DC school system for 15 years now, and the only time I have heard things from the littles that would make me raise an eyebrow is in the areas with a lower income demographic. Also, given the area of the country they are in, I'd bet that most of the families they come in contact with will have similar beliefs to theirs 

It’s apparently the best in the state, so it’s probably fairly affluent. There’s also info about student ethnicity and how many students are eligible for discounted/free lunch, for parents to read between the lines.

Will Jill fit in amongst a (presumably) affluent, older, and considerably more educated group of mothers? 

[Churchhoney]

13 hours ago, Zella said:

 

I know people have mentioned Ben also used to post more openly hateful stuff on social media. Did that stop after Derick was fired or did he put a sock in it beforehand? 

I wouldn't swear to this but I'm pretty sure Bin put a sock in it the minute Jessa (who also had started publishing her "beliefs" in social media and was every bit as arrogant as Bin about it -- both presented themselves very authoritatively) noticed that they were getting significant serious backlash from commenters. 

As I remember it (which could be wrong, but I think I have at least the basic timeline right) their self-censorship of their stringent views -- which they were presenting very authoritatively at first and were in the nature of general sermons about biblical interpretation and were directed widely at sinners and the culture, not directed to any particular people or at TLC at all, like Derick's (and Jer's) rants about Jazz -- began fast.

I'm pretty sure they were actually the first in the family to start using social media as a preaching medium.....(Der was still pursuing his missionary ambitions at the time, I think, and he didn't come out with the Jazz stuff that ran afoul of the network until much later, when his missionary dreams had died.)  But Bin (and Jessa) started presenting themselves as all-purpose sermonizers chastising the sins of the worldly quite early on, very soon after their marriage....I think that was part of Bin's preacher/pastor dream. 

But of course there was very quick anger and pushback from lots of people. And when it began, Bin, in particular, started trying to argue -- very strenuously and, again, in an authoritative tone -- against people's criticisms online. But of course that just made commenters more determined to shout him down.

And Bin was an absolutely terrible debater. His writing was massively unclear and it quickly became obvious when he tried to give reasons for his views that he apparently had no idea what he was talking about once he got past the initial cliches. After a few lengthy fights broke out with commenters, Bin and Jessa both went silent on religious issues -- and Bin pretty much went silent altogether -- and they pretty much remained that way forever after. 

The whole kerfuffle didn't last long at all because the blowups started as soon as they published their first stuff, which was quite inflammatory and was in the nature of fire and brimstone talk aimed at everybody their family religions disagreed with. Jessa, whose other obsession by that time was collecting social-media likes to build her tv brand, was horrified, I'm sure. So it's hard to imagine that she wasn't the one who stopped the preaching, 

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by Churchhoney

[Jeeves]

@Churchhoney, you've pretty much stated what I recall about Bin and Jessa as social media sermonizers. It kind of blew up on its own and got shut down fast, long before Derick put his foot firmly up his own butt on SM. 

[Madtown]

3 hours ago, floridamom said:

Israel should be in bed by 8:00pm; Sam should be in bed by 7:30 pm.....every night.

Israel should also have his OWN ROOM! I don't think I've seen one post from Jill about a "guest" staying overnight in the guest room. He's going to need good sleep and I agree with the bed times for each child that you suggested.

[Tasya]

He's 5, why does he have to have his own room? Kids can share a room and go to school and be just fine. I think that the kids do need to be moved to the larger room and have it set up so that it's more age appropriate. 

[Zella]

Thanks, @Churchhoney! So, really, Ben's experience could have been the warning to Derick if he would have listened. But nope.

And that's a good point about him not going after specific people. I've always felt like the fact Derick also targeted a fellow TLC personality was another nail in his coffin. The fact TLC continues to deal with the Duggars indicate to me they are not overflowing with moral principles. But him being extremely offensive on social media to a fellow TLC person would have been a bridge too far for many channels.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Zella

[SMama]

1 hour ago, Tasya said:

He's 5, why does he have to have his own room? Kids can share a room and go to school and be just fine. I think that the kids do need to be moved to the larger room and have it set up so that it's more age appropriate. 

It depends on Sam’s sleeping habits. Plus they already have the extra room. I know a couple with identical twins and the parents were very invested in everything being identical for them.

Then one girl began waking up in the middle of the night to play, sing, whatever she could do, waking up her sister.

It was very difficult for the parents but they separated them. It made such a big difference for the other twin. 
 

I can’t see Jill implementing a sleep schedule. Derick or Jill commented as newlyweds that a consistent bedtime was difficult for Jill. Does anyone recall that TH?

The TTH is fundie Las Vegas with infants up past midnight. It works for them because no one works and they are shameless about being hours late for everything.

I hope Derick mans up and makes sure his children (ay least Izzy now) have structure and consistency in their lives.

[crazy8s]

but we have seen Jill repeatedly talking about getting the boys to nap at the same time.

I think they most likely have a bed time for no other reason than Jill and Derick want time alone

[3 is enough]

Israel is almost 5 and he still has a nap?  I realize that all kids are different, but mine were done napping by 2.  However, they did go to bed at 7:30-8:00.  

Maybe if Jill cut out Israel's nap he would be ready for bed at a decent hour.  She should start trying to get him on some sort of schedule before school starts.

I know that kids don't need to have their own rooms, but at the very least they could put them in the bigger room.  A seldom used guest room doesn't have to be huge.

[SMama]

1 hour ago, crazy8s said:

but we have seen Jill repeatedly talking about getting the boys to nap at the same time.

I think they most likely have a bed time for no other reason than Jill and Derick want time alone

Jill has also posted about keeping the boys up late when Derick was either studying or Grub Hubing.  She can’t stand solitude.
 

Did Jill specified naps at the same time?  

If Israel is still napping the kinder transition is going to be rough. SGirl was way past naps when she started kinder, and she was attending preschool full time. Kinder knocked the wind out of her. The dual immersion program  and 80 page homework packets didn’t help. That teacher was cray cray. 

[Jeeves]

1 hour ago, 3 is enough said:

I know that kids don't need to have their own rooms, but at the very least they could put them in the bigger room.  A seldom used guest room doesn't have to be huge.

This reminds me that Jill didn't grow up with a frame of reference for many everyday things, the way many middle-class young women do. She lived first in a crammed-to-the-max ranch house which was absolutely too small for the size of the family. And then they moved into the TTH which basically has one bedroom for the parents and two big dorms for the kids. She never saw her parents deciding how to assign the use of regular sized rooms for uncrowded situations, or had a chance to think "if it were up to me, I'd have a bigger bedroom than my sister does," or "Let's furnish the smallest bedroom with a futon for guests and there will still be room in there for my crafting table and supplies too."

So I'm not surprised that after Derick got the front bedroom to use as an office - not a bad idea, really - she crammed the boys into the smaller of the two additional bedrooms. I mean, I don't know how her thinking went, but if they have a double bed for their "guest room" she may have thought "bigger bed must be in bigger bedroom" or something equally random. I think the only thing she's shown that room being used for, is to hold a shit ton of cardboard boxes and as a place for one or the other of the boys to nap. No mention of overnight guests, ever.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Jeeves

[crazy8s]

38 minutes ago, SMama said:

Jill has also posted about keeping the boys up late when Derick was either studying or Grub Hubing.  She can’t stand solitude.
 

Did Jill specified naps at the same time?  

If Israel is still napping the kinder transition is going to be rough. SGirl was way past naps when she started kinder, and she was attending preschool full time. Kinder knocked the wind out of her. The dual immersion program  and 80 page homework packets didn’t help. That teacher was cray cray. 

I do not think she specified a nap time. if Izzy isn't actually napping maybe he is allowed to look at books.

If his kindergarten is all day, most I know have a rest time where they lay out mats and can sleep or look at books.

I was pushed into "nap time" with a mom who needed a break in the afternoon. It ended when I was 4 1/2 and so bored I unraveled most of a chenille bedspread during nap time.

[farmgal4]

7 hours ago, floridamom said:

My take on Israel's schedule is that it will be Derick who gets up before Jill, gets Izzy ready for school and drives him to school on his way to work/class. I highly doubt that Jill could keep it up day after day.....school is EVERY DAY, Jill....rain or shine.

Israel should be in bed by 8:00pm; Sam should be in bed by 7:30 pm.....every night.

If she can’t get ONE child dressed and ready for school, then she needs to find someone to teach her to be an adult.  There are kids in junior high who are responsible for getting their siblings, and themselves, ready for school everyday.  

[OpieTaylor]

Re: Austin's level of fundie - Boob and MEchelle revealed* that Austin and a friend had rebelled against their parents and their lifestyle at some point in their teens or early adulthood. Boob said the boys were drinking and smoking. He didn't specify how long this went on, but obviously Austin returned to the fold. So he has chosen to be fundie again, but he also knows what life on the outside is like, so I tend to believe that he's not as judgmental about non-fundies.

*they revealed this info to a group of teens at a church camp - it was a video that was on youtube

[Zella]

13 minutes ago, OpieTaylor said:

Re: Austin's level of fundie - Boob and MEchelle revealed* that Austin and a friend had rebelled against their parents and their lifestyle at some point in their teens or early adulthood. Boob said the boys were drinking and smoking. He didn't specify how long this went on, but obviously Austin returned to the fold. So he has chosen to be fundie again, but he also knows what life on the outside is like, so I tend to believe that he's not as judgmental about non-fundies.

*they revealed this info to a group of teens at a church camp - it was a video that was on youtube

In my experience, people with this experience tend to be either more understanding or they tend to be even more hardline because of it. (Which I find true of people who have experienced hardship too--it either gives them an unusual sense of empathy or it just hardens them against people they deem weaker than themselves. 😞 ) 

For the ones who rebel and then return, it's like they have something to atone for, and I think they can go overboard in doing so or trying to prove that they aren't backsliding currently.

Of course, without knowing Austin better, it is hard to know which situation better fits him. But I wouldn't rule out his little rebellious period actually making him even more fundie.  

[Temperance]

28 minutes ago, OpieTaylor said:

Re: Austin's level of fundie - Boob and MEchelle revealed* that Austin and a friend had rebelled against their parents and their lifestyle at some point in their teens or early adulthood. Boob said the boys were drinking and smoking. He didn't specify how long this went on, but obviously Austin returned to the fold. So he has chosen to be fundie again, but he also knows what life on the outside is like, so I tend to believe that he's not as judgmental about non-fundies.

*they revealed this info to a group of teens at a church camp - it was a video that was on youtube

Actually I saw that  video and JB and Michelle pointed out that Austin's friends who led into rebellion had negative consquences.  Austin saw he had to go back to Jesus. 

JB and Michelle also made it clear (implied) Austin is their favorite son-in-law and that speaks volumes to me. 

Austin is just more likable than Derick. He's religious hardliner who probably hates the LGBTQ more than Derick.  He and Joy seem more resistant to change and new experiences (like the food).  Joy isn't qualified to homeschool a dog. 

Edited February 25, 2020 by Temperance
clarity

[Zella]

1 minute ago, Temperance said:

JB and Michelle also pointed Austin is their favorite son-in-law and that speaks volumes to me. 

Oh that's interesting! I hadn't realized they'd said that, but it makes sense. He's also the one they've known the longest, if I'm not mistaken?

[Temperance]

7 minutes ago, Zella said:

Oh that's interesting! I hadn't realized they'd said that, but it makes sense. He's also the one they've known the longest, if I'm not mistaken?

I made a mistake they didn't say that, but they clearly implied it. 

Edited February 25, 2020 by Temperance

[JoanArc]

6 hours ago, Tasya said:

He's 5, why does he have to have his own room?

 Honestly, because his mother didn’t. Better to break up some patterns now. I do  understand it they could do perfectly well together in a room but really, shake things up Jill.  In some ways, she needs a second childhood and to grow up right along with her boys. I honestly think she might take to scheduling once she gets forced into it for a few months. I would suggest to her therapist that she find a way for Jill to be able to handle time to herself, as that would fix many many problems. Maybe it’s just my personality, but I can’t imagine not being able to tolerate being alone. What’s to be scared of?  Whatever Jim Bob and Michelle did to her was terrible.

 

Quote

e: Austin's level of fundie - Boob and MEchelle revealed* that Austin and a friend had rebelled against their parents and their lifestyle at some point in their teens or early adulthood. Boob said the boys were drinking and smoking. He didn't specify how long this went on, but obviously Austin returned to the fold. So he has chosen to be fundie again, but he also knows what life on the outside is like, so I tend to believe that he's not as judgmental about non-fundies.

 It’s funny how they consider smoking and drinking active rebellion, but no one ever seems to  try thinking for themselves in active rebellion. A little weird and cinnamon whiskey is nothing compared to reading a philosophy book and getting something out of it, or realizing that the people that raised you were kind of crazy. 

Edited February 25, 2020 by JoanArc

[jukie]

I don't believe that there is a requirement for the boys to have their own rooms, growing up as the youngest of 6, my two oldest brothers shared until they moved out, my sisters shared until they moved out, my bother and I shared until I was 13, we always had a guest room, not sharing was not an option, dependent on the size of the rooms we had bunk beds or two singles.  Sharing a room is a good thing in my opinion, you learn to share, you can have late night chats, you learn to tolerate others and if they do decide to have another blessing where are they going to put it? 

[SMama]

2 hours ago, OpieTaylor said:

Re: Austin's level of fundie - Boob and MEchelle revealed* that Austin and a friend had rebelled against their parents and their lifestyle at some point in their teens or early adulthood. Boob said the boys were drinking and smoking. He didn't specify how long this went on, but obviously Austin returned to the fold. 

IIRC that friend is now married to Austin’s sister.

[Sew Sumi]

I think both Austin and Joy doubled down on the fundie beliefs after their respective rebellions. Bobby Ballinger (Austin's now BIL) certainly did. 

Edited February 25, 2020 by Sew Sumi

[QuinnInND]

5 hours ago, SMama said:

It depends on Sam’s sleeping habits. Plus they already have the extra room. I know a couple with identical twins and the parents were very invested in everything being identical for them.

Then one girl began waking up in the middle of the night to play, sing, whatever she could do, waking up her sister.

It was very difficult for the parents but they separated them. It made such a big difference for the other twin. 
 

I can’t see Jill implementing a sleep schedule. Derick or Jill commented as newlyweds that a consistent bedtime was difficult for Jill. Does anyone recall that TH?

The TTH is fundie Las Vegas with infants up past midnight. It works for them because no one works and they are shameless about being hours late for everything.

I hope Derick mans up and makes sure his children (ay least Izzy now) have structure and consistency in their lives.

My twins sleep in the same room. Fortunately, they're both good sleepers, and at this stage, don't wake each other up in that regard. But we've got a regular routine and bedtimes which helps. As long as they've got the space Izzy should have his own room. That way, Sam won't be waking him up during the night when school starts. Jill needs to start him on a routine pronto, before the fall. Kids who don't have any routine have a hard time in school. I've got one in my class. She's gotten used to it, finally, but it's still hard, and the parents don't enforce any routine at home. Izzy needs the structure. Sam too. 

[lookeyloo]

I made my boys "take a nap" until they went to kindergarten.  They didn't have to sleep but they did have to stay in bed and be quiet for a while.  Sometimes they slept and sometimes they didn't, but they were none the worse, and I also kept an early bedtime and they had no trouble sleeping at night.  when they went to school the naps stopped and they learned how to stay awake.  I don't think it is all that hard to figure this out.  And yes, all kids are different.  But so are parents. I was a SAHM and needed some quiet time after lunch.  I was patient with them until they learned to stay in bed for a while.  I let them have a book or a toy, and didn't demand sleep, just rest.  They shared a room til they were 5 and 7, when we had a house that would accommodate separate rooms.  Maybe Jill can figure all of this out, or Derick will help her.

[DangerousMinds]

But I doubt he ever left mommy and daddy's house.

[andromeda331]

14 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

I wouldn't swear to this but I'm pretty sure Bin put a sock in it the minute Jessa (who also had started publishing her "beliefs" in social media and was every bit as arrogant as Bin about it -- both presented themselves very authoritatively) noticed that they were getting significant serious backlash from commenters. 

As I remember it (which could be wrong, but I think I have at least the basic timeline right) their self-censorship of their stringent views -- which they were presenting very authoritatively at first and were in the nature of general sermons about biblical interpretation and were directed widely at sinners and the culture, not directed to any particular people or at TLC at all, like Derick's (and Jer's) rants about Jazz -- began fast.

I'm pretty sure they were actually the first in the family to start using social media as a preaching medium.....(Der was still pursuing his missionary ambitions at the time, I think, and he didn't come out with the Jazz stuff that ran afoul of the network until much later, when his missionary dreams had died.)  But Bin (and Jessa) started presenting themselves as all-purpose sermonizers chastising the sins of the worldly quite early on, very soon after their marriage....I think that was part of Bin's preacher/pastor dream. 

But of course there was very quick anger and pushback from lots of people. And when it began, Bin, in particular, started trying to argue -- very strenuously and, again, in an authoritative tone -- against people's criticisms online. But of course that just made commenters more determined to shout him down.

And Bin was an absolutely terrible debater. His writing was massively unclear and it quickly became obvious when he tried to give reasons for his views that he apparently had no idea what he was talking about once he got past the initial cliches. After a few lengthy fights broke out with commenters, Bin and Jessa both went silent on religious issues -- and Bin pretty much went silent altogether -- and they pretty much remained that way forever after. 

The whole kerfuffle didn't last long at all because the blowups started as soon as they published their first stuff, which was quite inflammatory and was in the nature of fire and brimstone talk aimed at everybody their family religions disagreed with. Jessa, whose other obsession by that time was collecting social-media likes to build her tv brand, was horrified, I'm sure. So it's hard to imagine that she wasn't the one who stopped the preaching, 

 

I remember that too. That's why I'm unconvinced they've changed on any of their beliefs or anything. They didn't stop making those posts because they saw the light or changed. They stopped because they got a lot of push back. Then suddenly their SM became all about cute kid pictures and videos. 

8 hours ago, Zella said:

In my experience, people with this experience tend to be either more understanding or they tend to be even more hardline because of it. (Which I find true of people who have experienced hardship too--it either gives them an unusual sense of empathy or it just hardens them against people they deem weaker than themselves. 😞 ) 

For the ones who rebel and then return, it's like they have something to atone for, and I think they can go overboard in doing so or trying to prove that they aren't backsliding currently.

Of course, without knowing Austin better, it is hard to know which situation better fits him. But I wouldn't rule out his little rebellious period actually making him even more fundie.  

I'm not sure which either. But I'm unconvinced that Austin returned to Jesus completely on his own. Given how much the parents like to brainwash the kids into that crap. When one starts to show signs of breaking of that I have no doubt they clamp down on that until he either gives up or gives in. Its the same with Joy crediting Joe with bringing her back into the fold when she had struggles in her teens. Did either one actually have the option of not returning to the fold? How exactly were either one 'convinced'.

[becca3891]

 

On 2/24/2020 at 1:55 AM, Temperance said:

It's surprising to me if JD is that guy. He seemed just as fundie as the rest of his family when he was younger. Like a lot of fundie boys (he was a teen), he was hung up on gender roles. Hopefully he's growing/evolving away from that. I agree it's a good sign they picked a normal church.  

I see him as so completely devoted to Abbie that he realizes her well-being is the most important thing. She had to go to the ER multiple times with hyperemesis gravidarum and I cannot imagine him ruling with an iron fist, telling her she absolutely had to have unlimited kids and be deathly ill each time. I think if she told him she could never go through with it again, he'd accept it.

On 2/24/2020 at 8:14 PM, GeeGolly said:

I'm not making the connection between not eating local food with being religiously conservative. And volunteering for a few days during a honeymoon compared to a year in Nepal and nearly a year in Central America seems to me that Austin evangelized when the opportunity arose rather than devoting substantial amount of time to it.

I don't think there's any doubt that Austin is the most conservative of any of them. They consider their family camp to be full time ministry, so that would be his answer to the fact that he hasn't gone overseas. 

[ginger90]

A tweet Derick recently “liked”:

[GeeGolly]

3 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

A tweet Derick recently “liked”:

Funny how Derick liked that. He has posted all kinds of shit slamming TLC, but now he'd be open to a show?

Derick reminds me of a three year old playing a game. Trying to change the rules to whatever will make him win.

[FizzyPuff]

On 2/25/2020 at 9:54 PM, Sew Sumi said:

I think both Austin and Joy doubled down on the fundie beliefs after their respective rebellions. Bobby Ballinger (Austin's now BIL) certainly did. 

How did Joy rebel exactly? 

[crazy8s]

2 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Funny how Derick liked that. He has posted all kinds of shit slamming TLC, but now he'd be open to a show?

Derick reminds me of a three year old playing a game. Trying to change the rules to whatever will make him win.

yes he has slammed TLC in the past and praised the UP network that has the bates show.

he must not know any of the shows there besides the bates' show. can you just imagine Jill watching the Gilmore Girls?? UP has that on all the time

[lascuba]

3 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Funny how Derick liked that. He has posted all kinds of shit slamming TLC, but now he'd be open to a show?

Derick reminds me of a three year old playing a game. Trying to change the rules to whatever will make him win.

A lot of people seem to forget that Derick's main beef with TLC wasn't the money, it was them have a show about a trans girl. More broadly, I think, it was about him and the Duggars not being allowed to be open about their beliefs in spite of JB's insistence that the show is a ministry. In that light, I can see why he liked that tweet, because he's imagining a show where he'd be able to say whatever he wants.

It's seriously blowing my mind that the narrative has shifted to Derick being some kind of liberal savior of Jill because of the kindergarten thing.

[Suzn]

1 hour ago, lascuba said:

A lot of people seem to forget that Derick's main beef with TLC wasn't the money, it was them have a show about a trans girl. More broadly, I think, it was about him and the Duggars not being allowed to be open about their beliefs in spite of JB's insistence that the show is a ministry. In that light, I can see why he liked that tweet, because he's imagining a show where he'd be able to say whatever he wants.

It's seriously blowing my mind that the narrative has shifted to Derick being some kind of liberal savior of Jill because of the kindergarten thing.

OMG, Yes!  I've been disturbed by this.  It's not new that Derick's attitude toward education was likely not to be the Duggar way, since he was not home-schooled.  He has not renounced his ugly, hateful world view or suddenly become an open, honest and truthful person.

Sending Israel to kindergarten is a tiny step that does not indicate that the world has shifted on its axis and that everything is different.  I hate to add lots of speculation, but it seems likely that the impetus for this was from Derick, not Jill.  There is nothing hinting that she is suddenly interested in getting more education for herself or that she wants a career now.

[lascuba]

1 hour ago, Suzn said:

OMG, Yes!  I've been disturbed by this.  It's not new that Derick's attitude toward education was likely not to be the Duggar way, since he was not home-schooled.  He has not renounced his ugly, hateful world view or suddenly become an open, honest and truthful person.

Sending Israel to kindergarten is a tiny step that does not indicate that the world has shifted on its axis and that everything is different.  I hate to add lots of speculation, but it seems likely that the impetus for this was from Derick, not Jill.  There is nothing hinting that she is suddenly interested in getting more education for herself or that she wants a career now.

Exactly. Also, being nice/understanding/patient/encouraging with Jill doesn't make him the anti-fundie. Plenty of super shitty people are genuinely kind and loving to those they care about. It's meaningless. I don't want Jill to be treated poorly, but how allegedly good Derick is to her changes nothing about my opinion of him.

Edited February 27, 2020 by lascuba

[JoanArc]

7 hours ago, Suzn said:

 

Sending Israel to kindergarten is a tiny step that does not indicate that the world has shifted on its axis and that everything is different.  I hate to add lots of speculation, but it seems likely that the impetus for this was from Derick, not Jill.  There is nothing hinting that she is suddenly interested in getting more education for herself or that she wants a career now.

"He's SBC, not fundie!" Is the new defense. The Southern Baptist Convention is a pretty shitty religion, with terrible beliefs. Literally a religion created in defense of slavery. Ask Derick about that one...

[mynextmistake]

3 hours ago, JoanArc said:

"He's SBC, not fundie!" Is the new defense. The Southern Baptist Convention is a pretty shitty religion, with terrible beliefs. Literally a religion created in defense of slavery. Ask Derick about that one...

Actually I’m one of the people who said that, and I didn’t say it was a defense to anything. His beliefs, as I believe I said before, are abhorrent. The point I was making was that Derick, while still a prick, was not as fundie as the Duggars. Whatever you or I may think of it, the SBC is a mainstream church attended by millions of people, including divorced people and people who use birth control and women who work and people who go on dates. It is far more mainstream than a church in Kendra’s dad’s garage attended by a handful of people which preaches that birth control is a sin, kids can’t hold hands before getting engaged and women have to wear ankle-length skirts and flip flops to atone for the sins of Eve, or whatever. Derick following SBC teaching might still be a bigot, but he’s a bigot with whom Jill has some freedom and his sons have the chance at a decent education. All of them are better off with an SBC Derick than they would be with an IBLP Derick. That’s not an endorsement of the SBC, it’s a recognition that there are degrees of bad and the SBC is, in many ways, less bad than IBLP. 

Sometimes it seems like people aren’t going to think the Duggar kids have “broken free” unless they completely relinquish their religious beliefs. I don’t think that’s how it works. Change is incremental. I’m sure most of us would love it if Jill woke up tomorrow and became a feminist and a marshal at the Pride parade, but that’s not going to happen. However, broadening the circle of people she and Izzy know can only be a step forward, not backward. And maybe after 13 years of public school and college, Izzy’s beliefs will have been challenged to the point that he changes his mind about some of the things he was taught. Maybe Jill’s will as well. 

[PikaScrewChu]

1 hour ago, mynextmistake said:

However, broadening the circle of people she and Izzy know can only be a step forward, not backward. And maybe after 13 years of public school and college, Izzy’s beliefs will have been challenged to the point that he changes his mind about some of the things he was taught. Maybe Jill’s will as well. 

This is the only way any of the GrandDuggars are going to "break free" is by being exposed to things that challenge their world view. And no, I don't mean the staged TLC trips. Izzy is going to come into contact with people, beliefs, and ideals that his grandparents tried to isolate his mother from. That is a good thing. 

It doesn't take away Derick is a raging, hateful, miserable jerk. But it's good for those two boys. The M'kids, Seewalds, JoKens, Forsyths, and SiRens are likely going to have 12 years of subpar homeschooling and little to no exposure to anything that could challenge their beliefs.

A broken clock is right twice a day. Jill and Derick did make the right move here. It's a low bar, but they did something right for once. 

[hathorlive]

8 hours ago, mynextmistake said:

 All of them are better off with an SBC Derick than they would be with an IBLP Derick. That’s not an endorsement of the SBC, it’s a recognition that there are degrees of bad and the SBC is, in many ways, less bad than IBLP. 

Sometimes it seems like people aren’t going to think the Duggar kids have “broken free” unless they completely relinquish their religious beliefs. I don’t think that’s how it works. Change is incremental. I’m sure most of us would love it if Jill woke up tomorrow and became a feminist and a marshal at the Pride parade, but that’s not going to happen. However, broadening the circle of people she and Izzy know can only be a step forward, not backward. And maybe after 13 years of public school and college, Izzy’s beliefs will have been challenged to the point that he changes his mind about some of the things he was taught. Maybe Jill’s will as well. 

Absolutely well stated!  I grew up in the heart of the SBC.  I can't stand Baptists and religion in general but the SBC aren't all horrible people.  I disagree with most of their beliefs but most of the ones I know are educated people who try to live their lives according to the gospel.  They don't tend to home school and they aren't a cult.  

From where Jill came from, the SBC is down right enlightened. It might not be the life we want for Jill but it's miles away from the Gotthard cult she grew up in.  She's never going to shave her head and fly a rainbow flag.  So I am happy that she's doing anything mainstream, even if it's still religious and conservative. She's giving her boys a chance at a normal life.  When these kids get an education, they have the ability to earn their own money.  And that breaks JB's hold over them.  And that is freedom, my friends.   I realize that Derrick is a dick, but I'll take his brand of dickness over JB's any day.

[Jeeves]

9 hours ago, mynextmistake said:

All of them are better off with an SBC Derick than they would be with an IBLP Derick. That’s not an endorsement of the SBC, it’s a recognition that there are degrees of bad and the SBC is, in many ways, less bad than IBLP. 

. . . Change is incremental. . . . broadening the circle of people [Jill] and Izzy know can only be a step forward, not backward. And maybe after 13 years of public school and college, Izzy’s beliefs will have been challenged to the point that he changes his mind about some of the things he was taught. Maybe Jill’s will as well. 

THANK YOU for that!! That's where I'm coming from, and I believe I've posted similar things in this discussion. I've never thought that Derick would lead Jill into some kind of "liberal" lifestyle, but yes I am not surprised that he, Jill, and their kids are living a mainstream type of Arkansas life. 

47 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

Absolutely well stated!  I grew up in the heart of the SBC.  I can't stand Baptists and religion in general but the SBC aren't all horrible people.  I disagree with most of their beliefs but most of the ones I know are educated people who try to live their lives according to the gospel.  They don't tend to home school and they aren't a cult.  

From where Jill came from, the SBC is down right enlightened. It might not be the life we want for Jill but it's miles away from the Gotthard cult she grew up in.  She's never going to shave her head and fly a rainbow flag.  So I am happy that she's doing anything mainstream, even if it's still religious and conservative. She's giving her boys a chance at a normal life.  When these kids get an education, they have the ability to earn their own money.  And that breaks JB's hold over them.  And that is freedom, my friends.   I realize that Derrick is a dick, but I'll take his brand of dickness over JB's any day.

And, thank you too! I've mentioned my dozens of SBC relatives who are, as you said, educated people who try to live their lives according to the gospel. They don't live in compounds or dress funny. They also, without making a fuss or fanfare, do a lot to help other people, including strangers and folks who aren't in a position to help them. Just saying.

Edited February 28, 2020 by Jeeves

[lascuba]

9 hours ago, mynextmistake said:

Actually I’m one of the people who said that, and I didn’t say it was a defense to anything. His beliefs, as I believe I said before, are abhorrent. The point I was making was that Derick, while still a prick, was not as fundie as the Duggars. Whatever you or I may think of it, the SBC is a mainstream church attended by millions of people, including divorced people and people who use birth control and women who work and people who go on dates. It is far more mainstream than a church in Kendra’s dad’s garage attended by a handful of people which preaches that birth control is a sin, kids can’t hold hands before getting engaged and women have to wear ankle-length skirts and flip flops to atone for the sins of Eve, or whatever. Derick following SBC teaching might still be a bigot, but he’s a bigot with whom Jill has some freedom and his sons have the chance at a decent education. All of them are better off with an SBC Derick than they would be with an IBLP Derick. That’s not an endorsement of the SBC, it’s a recognition that there are degrees of bad and the SBC is, in many ways, less bad than IBLP. 

Sometimes it seems like people aren’t going to think the Duggar kids have “broken free” unless they completely relinquish their religious beliefs. I don’t think that’s how it works. Change is incremental. I’m sure most of us would love it if Jill woke up tomorrow and became a feminist and a marshal at the Pride parade, but that’s not going to happen. However, broadening the circle of people she and Izzy know can only be a step forward, not backward. And maybe after 13 years of public school and college, Izzy’s beliefs will have been challenged to the point that he changes his mind about some of the things he was taught. Maybe Jill’s will as well. 

Here's where I'm coming from... all those incremental tiers between IBLP and whatever anyone's personal idea of "free" is are still filled with major assholes who are actively trying to make the world an even worse place. I fully understand that change is slow and gradual, I just refuse to give any of these people much credit for any less bad choices they make, because when it comes down to it, they are still doing harm. Their public faces, how "nice" they might be on an interpersonal level, mean nothing to me. Derick and Jill are still the motherfuckers who posted a picture of Israel's line of block with a caption about him "building the wall." The fact that Derick might possibly be encouraging Jill to not be as rigid as her parents isn't going to give me the warm fuzzies in light of that. If or until they complete all the steps to being decent humans and not religious automatons is when I'll applaud them. Until then, I'm going with the safer bet that any positive changes they appear to be making are about their own comfort and enjoyment rather than any well-thought changes of heart.

[Suzn]

52 minutes ago, lascuba said:

Here's where I'm coming from... all those incremental tiers between IBLP and whatever anyone's personal idea of "free" is are still filled with major assholes who are actively trying to make the world an even worse place. I fully understand that change is slow and gradual, I just refuse to give any of these people much credit for any less bad choices they make, because when it comes down to it, they are still doing harm. Their public faces, how "nice" they might be on an interpersonal level, mean nothing to me. Derick and Jill are still the motherfuckers who posted a picture of Israel's line of block with a caption about him "building the wall." The fact that Derick might possibly be encouraging Jill to not be as rigid as her parents isn't going to give me the warm fuzzies in light of that. If or until they complete all the steps to being decent humans and not religious automatons is when I'll applaud them. Until then, I'm going with the safer bet that any positive changes they appear to be making are about their own comfort and enjoyment rather than any well-thought changes of heart.

This is exactly my position too.  I don't care that they may on the surface be less extreme.  They are still people who want to limit the rights of others and worse.  They are dangerous people who we need to see for what their intent is and not be lulled by some things that appear more mainstream.

[lascuba]

6 minutes ago, Suzn said:

This is exactly my position too.  I don't care that they may on the surface be less extreme.  They are still people who want to limit the rights of others and worse.  They are dangerous people who we need to see for what their intent is and not be lulled by some things that appear more mainstream.

I get the excitement after watching these people for years, because they were so extreme and ridiculous. But it really isn't the no-pants, long hair, accountability partners, etc. stuff that matters on a fundamental (no pun intended) level, and it's really not that significant that those are the first things to change. I see those things as affectations of new converts to show that they're "in," and it's not surprise that subsequent generations drop those habits.