Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[autumnh]

Well, I live in the area & everyone I know is appalled. I'm Catholic though so I don't count. :).

I am Catholic too! lol

[Literata]

I got the idea that a friend wrote a letter to the Duggars about it (i.e. "I'm concerned about x, y, z." Some church people are big on letter-writing) and somebody in the house had a moment where they hastily shoved it in a book to keep one of the kids from seeing it or maybe carelessly used it as a bookmark or something like that and then they forgot it was in there. Or one of the girls might have intercepted it and put it in the book. Who knows?

I'm more inclined to think it was one of the kids. How tragic would that be to know that was your only means of making yourself heard?

Edited May 25, 2015 by Literata

[Apple Clark]

I don't think Anna is going anywhere, and I doubt she wants to. We are looking at this through our educated, and that doesn't mean degrees, it means we know of the world, so to speak, eyes. She has been raised in this cult. She may not have been abused herself, or think abuse is fine, but she was raised to be careful not to "defraud". Raised to believe that any woman who is not modest will incite the lust in the man, and yada yada. She will forgive his past sin because he was tempted and he gave into that temptation. To me, what he did indicates that he is a deeply disturbed person. She won't see it that way. Denial. Anna I am sure will cling to this denial. She will not be able to break vows that she has been raised her whole life to believe are sacred. She will assist with circling the wagons. I feel bad for her, but I already felt bad for the life she was leading as a brood mare to an egotistical prick.

I agree, she probably won't, but she should. He is most definitely deeply disturbed, and I wouldn't want him around me or my children. He is a disgusting pervert, (and is it just me, or does it seem like a lot of men that grow up in cults (or lead them) are charged with sex offenses?) It's disgusting and inexcusable, and the show should've ended 13 years ago when they found out. I feel awful for those girls.

[Gemma Violet]

I would like to boycott whoever sponsors the Duggar programs on TLC. Does anyone know? I have written emails and I also want my voice heard where the buck stops. Thank you in advance. 

 

I saw a list of advertisers of last week's Josh episodes marathon somewhere, but I can't

remember where--I think maybe on freejinger.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Gemma Violet

[Iguessnot]

TLC may have stopped airing them but the episodes are still available at TLC on demand - so I went back and watched the Erin Hill interview which I'd skipped when it was on (thought it would be boring).  It's harder to watch it now knowing what was about to hit the fan.............. but I wanted to see what people meant when they said it was tense and there were some weird looks.  I think I saw it most in Anna, her face changed when she thought the camera wasn't on her and she did a lot of glancing off camera at something or someone

 

Alison Arngrim linked, on Facebook, to this article that I think is pretty good - it's basically what if Josh had come out as gay instead what would the family, friend and political reaction be then.

 

http://www.deepsouthdaily.com/2015/05/if-josh-duggar-had-announced-that-hes-gay.html

Which season and what episode is this Erin Hill episode?

[jschoolgirl]

The Erin HIll episode is this season, and it is number 21 on the On Demand list.

[Zung Li]

Here is a comment from "concernedmom" on a blog from 2005.

 

...A few years ago ... the men of the church were meeting after church to discuss my friends teenage daughters apparel. They felt like their blouses were to tight and they should bind their chest up more, go figure. At the same time the son of one of these political men was touching one of my friends teenage daughters in a sexual way as she slept. This was found out and apologies were made although the boy was tempted by the girls tight blouses(lol). The boy was sent to one of the training centers to be punished??? My friends did not return to the home church for quite sometime after this. At this same time, the boy mentioned earlier was betrothed to a girl in the the group, both were 14 at the time. The betrothal was broken by the boys actions. ... Just this last year the family of the young man mentioned before was highlighted on the Discovery Channel, at the time they had 14 children and were about to have another and the mom was receiving a mother of the year award from our governor. Since that time the same boy was betrothed again to the same girl. He was working very hard on a campaingn for U.S. Senate for the girls father. The father lost the campaign. He immediately began looking for “sin in the camp”, as that could be the only explanation for the loss. He found that the young man betrothed to his daughter, had committed sexual sins(?) while on the campaign trail. The young man, now 16, was made to stand in fornt of the church and confess his sin. He was then told that the campaign was lost due to his sin. The weight of the world on this poor boys shoulders. I do not know what punishment the church gave but I do know that it was harsh enough for his mother to seek advise outside of the “group”, but she did eventually give in to her husband and the group. The young man and young girls betrothal is now broken. I am I nuts to see this as abuse? And what do you think can be done?

[sigmaforce86]

Which season and what episode is this Erin Hill episode?

Sorry - I didn't notice my typo - it's Erica Hill. Last episode of this season and the real name of it is "Digging in with the Duggars"

[jschoolgirl]

Sorry - I didn't notice my typo - it's Erica Hill. Last episode of this season and the real name of it is "Digging in with the Duggars"

Yes. You can't tell from the list or the program blurbs because the title doesn't appear there. The only way to know that is the eppy is the title card when it starts.

Edited May 25, 2015 by jschoolgirl

[SometimesBites]

 

Someone put together a timeline? Really? I had a much longer post about this, but I couldn't find the right words to not sound insensitive, so I concluded I was being insensitive. But, it creeps me out that the Washington Post actually compiled and published a timeline.

A timeline is set of facts lined up with dates--this is what happened, and when. Better to be factual and clear than to make speculative claims based on strong emotion.

[shannon612]

Here's a post about the possible future of the show.

 

http://www.tmz.com/2015/05/23/19-kids-and-counting-josh-duggar-molestation-scandal-tlc-jill-jessa/

[cmr2014]

I don't think that they will be able to do this. What will they call it "18 Kids and One We Don't Talk About." If Josh returns to AR, he will be around the TTH -- how will that work? Maybe TFDW can get him a job at Gothard HQ in Chicago, and they can re-name the show "The Duggars."

 

I think that TLC will throw ideas around for a while, but they will eventually have to pull the plug. Child molestation is pretty horrific. Incest is pretty horrific. Some vocal members of the evangelical community may be showing support now, but I think that a lot of people will not be able to stomach the show just carrying on.

[Sew Sumi]

The Duggars are listed as attending by VIDEO, so not actually attending the conference. Not sure if that is a change since you saw the site.

[Here is a quote from the site: "The Nashville, Tennessee Family Conference is held right after Memorial Day weekend – May 26-29. The late spring weather is usually temperate, and the location has 50% of the U.S. population within 600 miles!" what an odd thing to say.]

Probably always a video deal. Remember, they were originally slated to be at that TLC "Block Party" in Philly next weekend, before TLC pulled the plug on that gig on Friday.

[Ivy26]

Oy...I take some time off work (the only pplace I post) and shit hits the fan.  So many thoughts.

 

I have worked with sex offenders.  I read and written presentence reports for offenders.  I have read things that make my stomach turn.  Josh's police made me sick.  He hurt his siblings, he violated them.  And it pisses me off that the girls spoke to the police, but Jim Bob lawyered up for Joshie.  This wasn't handled right.

 

But what is making me furious is the Duggar supporters.  Making excuses for his age, and that he repented.  Sorry, we didn't make up the nickname Smuggar for a truly repentant boy.  14 is old enough to know not to diddle your sisters.  He didn't "confess", he was caught.  And the idiot parents WAITED to turn him in, waited til the statute of limitations dates got fuzzy. 

  I'm not Christian, but even my Pentecostal husband agrees: He may say he's forgiven, but unless he has a personal line to God, there is no proof of it.  And what's happening right now just may be God's way of punishing him. 

   the supporters want to say that we need to stop talking about it.  You know, for the girl's sake and privacy. No.  Unequivocally, NO!  The girls have nothing to be ashamed of.  They did nothing wrong.  And by sweeping it under the carpet, it says that Josh, Jib Bob/Michelle, and Anna can make statements, but the girls deserve nothing.  Silence continues the abuse.  It continues the shame, and reminds the girls that a heinous sin can be committed, and no consequences can be faced as long as he gives a half assed sorry.  There might be a girl out there that might reveal what has happened to her because we are forcing the conversation to continue.

Also, as a matter of pure speculation of how the police report was leaked...anybody consider someone in the Gothard organization?  After the Bill Gothard thing went down, the Duggars distanced themselves.  I'm sure that didn't go over well.  The Duggars fell on their own hubris, but they had help.  Maybe TFDW had access, and turned in his man crush.  Maybe the Bates thought it was time.  Hell, maybe Gothard himself.  Or maybe the Seewalds or Dillards, maybe someone got fed up of the hypocrisy.  Pure speculation.

Anyway, had to get this off my chest.  The whole thing sickens me.  We thought "sin in the camp" was the broken engagement.  I take no joy in seeing them fall this way.

I'm pretty sure none of us do.

[natyxg]

I don't think that they will be able to do this. What will they call it "18 Kids and One We Don't Talk About." If Josh returns to AR, he will be around the TTH -- how will that work? Maybe TFDW can get him a job at Gothard HQ in Chicago, and they can re-name the show "The Duggars."

 

I think that TLC will throw ideas around for a while, but they will eventually have to pull the plug. Child molestation is pretty horrific. Incest is pretty horrific. Some vocal members of the evangelical community may be showing support now, but I think that a lot of people will not be able to stomach the show just carrying on.

 

I think they could have salvaged it if the molestation hadn't been in the family. If the victims were unknown or if it happened after Josh left the family home or behind the families backs. Then they would just need to get rid of Josh. But as it is the entire show is tainted by this, imo.

[WalrusGirl]

I have a question: does anyone think the whistle-blower (or the person who loaned the book out, which 'coincidentally' had the damning letter in there) knew that the Statute was due to run out fairly soon and was therefore trying to ensure there were consequences before it did? And could it be possible that J Boob and MEchelle hired the lawyer and postponed meetings etc. in order to ensure that the Statute ran out before there could be consequences?

No, based on the timeline in the police report and spelled out on multiple news and blog sites, the statute was up - starting from both the last known offense and when the state trooper (who is law enforcement) was told by the Duggars - before the 2006 investigation ever started. They didn't delay at that point, or delay out of the statute. It was already up. The trooper just failed in his duty, and the letter was found and reported to DCFS and Oprah -> the authorities when it was already too late. Had any of the kids reported another incident after Josh returned in the summer of 2003/the trooper being told - which each was asked about - they would have been able to move forward.

(While the state trooper was obviously oh so wrong for this particular issue, he was law enforcement, a mandated reporter, and it's on him - ie, the state - that the ball wasn't rolling back in mid-2003. That kind of government incompetence doesn't get held against the accused by giving the government an extension and treating that accused differently. And while sure, JB went to a trooper he knew and probably even hoped would scare Josh, give advice (sounds like they asked what was next and the trooper said "nothing"), yet handle it quietly, I can't be convinced that JB would have any reason to know the guy was into child porn and would therefore let it go.)

I'm more inclined to think it was one of the kids. How tragic would that be to know that was your only means of making yourself heard?

Pretty sure it's been confirmed - in this thread and the police report - several times that it wasn't one of the kids, but a family friend who knew of the situation at the time. The police report includes this, and that the police/DCFS eventually spoke to and confirmed who had written the letter. Their identity is redacted, significantly more effectively than the victims' were, though one possibility springs to mind. http://m.imgur.com/a/zqPMi , page 32.

I suppose. I just feel like some of the attempts to put the pieces together has more to do with satisfying curiosity/nosiness than anything else and that bothers me. That's just my opinion.

The WaPo (and as I recall, the dlisted timeline) aren't trying to publicly deduce who the exact victims are based on length of (inexcusably awful) redaction, etc. So they're doing better than this board has. A mod is the only one who's pointed out that it's icky. (And yeah, reading the police report, I couldn't help but draw some conclusions about who each interview could be too, but there's no decent reason to crowdsource - publicly - the identity of real, non-fictitious victims. Who were all minors, and one of whom still is.)

It's easy to view it a little as "it's TV" and try to piece it all together like other shows, but these are real kids in a real police report that, while obtained by ITW legally, sounds like was released to them illegally. A crowdsourced, unredacted version of a molestation investigation isn't really ideal in my book. :-/

(And it sounds like you don't want that either, so it isn't directed at you or anyone specifically! I've just read much more speculation and investigation that only serves to satisfy curiosity here than I have in the timelines, and while I got it initially - "holy shit, look at how young those possibilities were/look at that BS redaction," while it was a fresh shock - it doesn't serve any legit purpose.)

EarlGreyTea, on 24 May 2015 - 10:39 PM, said:

By the way, I'm guessing the bromance between Josh and TFDW is probably done.

Or maybe just beginning.

Um, I'm hoping you mean because Josh is fully forgiven and redeemed in Gothard's world, and not implying any similarities between TFDW's (suspected) issues and Josh's? (Genuinely hoping and assuming, but reading it really startled me as a comparison!) Edited May 25, 2015 by WalrusGirl

[Iguessnot]

Yes. You can't tell from the list or the program blurbs because the title doesn't appear there. The only way to know that is the eppy is the title card when it starts.

I thought the gender reveal was number 21. It seems Digging with the Duggars isn't on Xfinity, but it's available on Amazon. Good thing I have some free promo codes available so I don't have to pay up. 

[maggiemae]

If Josh can call the sister that outed him last season a snitch then he has not repented one damn bit.

 

And it was not a "temptation that got out of control." IMO. Especially since he has learned not one damned thing about what he did. Redemption and forgiveness, let alone now saying the experience brought him even closer to God?

[txvoodoo]

I have spent the weekend just feeling so relentlessly SAD about all of this. I can't shake it. 

 

It brought back emotions I thought I dealt with decades ago. 40 years ago, something similar happened to me. My heart's breaking for the victims.

[Quilt Fairy]

It is amazing how you can go from PEOPLE Magazine America's moneymaker darling to horrible people who will make us even more money.

Yeah, I can see a few more People covers with the Duggars one way or the other. Well. you can say People isn't flexible.

 

A timeline is set of facts lined up with dates--this is what happened, and when. Better to be factual and clear than to make speculative claims based on strong emotion.

One reason a timeline helps with this case is it's just a weird timeline. Some things happen in 2002 and 2003, fast-forward to 2006 where the police are now investigating what happened in 2002-3, fast-forward to 2015 where the public is finally made aware and the shit hits the fan.

[Sew Sumi]

It will actually be interesting to see what TFDW, as a big "face" of the "new" Gothard, does. Will he embrace Smuggar with open arms or distance himself? Personally, I see Waller as even more sanctimonious than the Duggars, but he may be told to "love the sinner" on behalf of IBLP. 

 

I guess this really is a turning point with the Duggars' relationship with the organization. Who knows? They may well pull the video lecture this coming week, and at all future Family Conferences (I know that they were going to Sacramento in July and had the video planned for Minneapolis). Granted, this speaking gig is just Boob/Mechelle, but I imagine they parade the family onstage with requisite screechy violins. If I was Boob, I'd pull the kids offstage for the forseeable future. And of course, Josh better be absent. Period. 

 

They canceled the gig in Ohio, right? Or are Jill and Jessa still going without the Smuggars? Have we confirmation one way or another?

I thought the gender reveal was number 21. It seems Digging with the Duggars isn't on Xfinity, but it's available on Amazon. Good thing I have some free promo codes available so I don't have to pay up. 

I found it on Xfinity earlier this evening. It was Episode 21, listed as "new."

[Lillybee]

If anyone wants to know the sponsers of this shit fest, FreeJinger has a list.

[bluebonnet]

I'm sorry to be the wet blanket here, but I wish this whole TFDW thing would stop as I've read the list in the 19 Questions Thread and the explanation of how TFDW came about and it's clear that this is a term used for mockery.  One, being gay isn't something to be mocked, no more than having red hair or being left-handed.  It's no ok to mock gay people.  Two, so much of the criticism against the Duggars over the years have been their strict adherence to gender stereotypes, so it makes little sense that the fandom would mock a person for not strictly adhering to a specific gender behavior.  shame shame shame.  Raginging about Waller's stance on the LGBTQIA community is one thing.  Mocking him for the suspicion that he's gay is shameful.  

 

I recognize this is a post that will likely be hidden but I just can't stand this anymore and am genuinely saddened that this sort of behavior persists outside of the Duggar cult.  

Edited May 25, 2015 by bluebonnet

[becca3891]

I'm not trying to be dense but why would a pregnant woman and a child not have support during a birth?  I couldn't imagine it would be legal for healthcare providers to turn her away.  

I think the person just meant that she has no family in the DC area and it seems perhaps less likely now that any of the older girls would fly out for the birth (although obviously their feelings towards Josh and Anna have not suddenly changed), especially considering it will quite likely not be filmed or aired. But of course she has a mom and sisters of her own who may well provide support.

 

I seem to recall that while reading one of the police reports- that one of the incidents happened in the TTH.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Everything happened in their small house in 2002-2003, so no, nothing in the TTH -- we hope. Nothing reported, anyway.

[Literata]

Here's a post about the possible future of the show.

http://www.tmz.com/2015/05/23/19-kids-and-counting-josh-duggar-molestation-scandal-tlc-jill-jessa/

And continue to focus on Boob and MEchelle as well? Given that many of us see them as equally culpable, I'm not sure axing Josh but leaving them is the answer. Edited May 25, 2015 by Literata

[Literata]

Bluebonnet, if you read through the "Sweet Fellowship" thread, I think that might help you understand the feelings many of us share about TFDW. I can't think of anyone here who would make fun of anyone on the basis of sexual orientation.

[mbutterfly]

I am not altogether certain the show has been pulled in any permanent way. I think TLC could justify reframing the show around the girls and the other adult boys. Josh would need to disappear and probably his family. JimBob and Michelle would need to take a very back seat. I know this thought isn't original with me, but it is my best guess. I don't think TLC wants to drop them. And I don't think People wants to drop them either. 

Well, I live in the area & everyone I know is appalled. I'm Catholic though so I don't count. :).

I would like to think so. It is genuinely appalling and not just in a I-have-a-philosophical-difference kind of way. 

[bluebonnet]

Bluebonnet, if you read through the "Sweet Fellowship" thread, I think that might help you understand the feelings many of us share about TFDW. I can't think of anyone here who would make fun of anyone on the basis of sexual orientation.

Yes, I've read through it.  It's pretty nauseating.  Mostly just remarks on how he's effeminate and must be gay and har har 'fabulous' and how he hangs out with his brother in law, and the absolute worst, how he must be an abuser with the implied undertone being an abuser to children.  It's disgusting.  All this focus on mocking the person because of the suspicion he is gay due to not strictly adhering to dumb gender stereotypes instead of mocking the person for the the horrible, hateful philosophy he goes around supporting and preaching.  Being gay isn't a choice.  Being a hateful bigot is a choice.  One is open to mockery, the other shouldn't be.  

[Hannah]

Hi All this is my first time posting here im from the uk. Ive been a long time reader on TWOP and now here.

Ive watched every show shown in the uk the last thing we saw was Jills wedding 

 

Im so disgusted with what Josh has done to his sisters and how Josh, Jim Bob and Michelle has handled this situation both when it happened all through the 12 years and now 

 

I doubt what ever Jim bob and Michelle and the girls say that the Girls ever got the right help and support to deal with what happened.

 

How ever many times Josh, Michelle, Jim Bob and the girls says the girls have forgive Josh for what he did to them deep down there wont have and never will and there will must likely keep them feelings to themselves

 

It must be awful for the girls now with it all over the news and i cant imagine how there must be feeling now or what there going through

 

I think if the show dose carry on it will be hard to not address it and to carry on like it never happened etc.   

 

[andromeda331]

I finally posted a comment on one of the Duggar fan sites. I know it'll never be posted. But I had to point out that their defending Josh and all of their comments are the reason people don't report abuse. The fear everyone will flock to defend and protect their abuser. I do hope people see the many comments condemning Josh and his parents instead and find the strength to come forward. I said more but the only other part I wanted to mention that I also said towards all of their Bible references and comments that I hope they remember every single one of them when they stand before their God for their final judgment and have to explain why they chose to defend a molester. You can bet nearly everyone of them will be backpeddling.

 

I hope this isn't off topic even though it was part of a comment I made on another site. It is how I feel towards the Defenders especially the ones claiming if your a good Christian you would forgive. And even towards Josh, JimBob and Michelle. You know not one of them would say any of that stuff to their actual God.  

[WalrusGirl]

I'm sorry to be the wet blanket here, but I wish this whole TFDW thing would stop as I've read the list in the 19 Questions Thread and the explanation of how TFDW came about and it's clear that this is a term used for mockery. One, being gay isn't something to be mocked, no more than having red hair or being left-handed. It's no ok to mock gay people. Two, so much of the criticism against the Duggars over the years have been their strict adherence to gender stereotypes, so it makes little sense that the fandom would mock a person for not strictly adhering to a specific gender behavior. shame shame shame. [...] Mocking him for the suspicion that he's gay is shameful.

If it's deleted, it's because it's been moved to the correct thread. :-P Which is why I'm keeping this short, and it may also be deleted. That he really is pretty fabulous isn't derogatory, whether he's one of those very effeminate straight guys or closeted. (And given the culture in which he was raised, I hope it's the former, as I don't wish the latter on anyone in that environment.) Though he put himself on national television several times and works for the Gothard organization that put out that sickening sexual abuse curriculum, and is an adult, so his sexuality is fair game as forum policy anyway. I don't read the appropriate thread, but any regulars here who think he's abusive - because of his perceived sexuality, not because he's high up in Gothard's organization and follows those principles as headship with his family - is an extreme exception.

The acronym also likely became the consensus on the previous site, which was founded on the principle of snark.

But regardless, the mods may move or delete these as they're not the right thread, I'm just not sure people new to the 19KaC board this week will find the right place. But any debate probably needs to be continued there, since this has nothing to do with Josh, Anna, or the molestation news.

[GreyBunny]

Of course we're all sinners. But we aren't all criminals. I am admittedly not part of a fundamentalist cult, but I don't understand why nobody associated with this family seems to recognize this difference. What Josh did wasn't *just* a sin. It was a crime as well. You don't get a do-over for it by confessing and praying. That's not enough.

The Bible recognizes a distinction between spiritual and secular consequences for behavior -- why don't these people?

 

I'm not a sinner.  That's a christian/Abrahamic construct and I'm not a christian.  That bible stuff doesn't apply to me.

 

Those Duggars and sycophants want to flatten the curve by making repeated incestuous molestations of prepubescent girls on the level of getting a speeding ticket which is utterly absurd.  Maybe it's too late for a court of law but that doesn't mean society at large has to let this go. Josh is still out in public and, as far as I'm concerned, he's a danger to young female children and people who could come in contact with him (Arkansas, DC, wherever) have the right to take whatever steps necessary to alert others and protect their girls.

Edited May 25, 2015 by GreyBunny

[Higgins]

So basically the girls are having to relive it and are victimized again....sigh.

[starfire]

Does anyone know if the pedophile state trooper, Jim Hutchens, that JB brought Josh to for the stern "talking to" (which sounded like was off the record) has any connections to Gothard, Bates, etc.? Apparently JB brought along some "church elders" for this meeting. I am very curious as to why JB and Michelle decided to bring Josh to this particular trooper, how long they knew him, how close they were, if he had been to the Duggar home, etc.

 

Very creepy and ironic that JB & Michelle brought Josh to a pedophile to be talked to. Creeps me out that the trooper probably got off on it, and then of course he didn't do anything about it except supposedly scold Josh. 

[Darknight]

Maybe the state trooper will be interviewed. JimChelle brought their son to two pedophiles. How can they not see anything wrong with this. I mean I could see a pedophile being attracted to this cult. Since all you have to do is ask jesus for forgiveness

[bluebonnet]

Could the former trooper be charged for not properly investigating this?  I mean, the punishment will hardly matter for Trooper Hutchens since he's in prison for 56 years anyway.  But in general, is what he did wrt Josh Duggar considered a crime?  

[GreyBunny]

^ Good question.  He's law enforcement, that makes him a mandatory reporter of any child abuse he has knowledge of.  Instead of giving Josh a "stern talking-to" he needed to report Josh to CPS and other appropriate authorities so an official investigation can be done.  I wonder how much Jim Bob paid his pedo friend to keep things quiet.

Edited May 25, 2015 by GreyBunny

[becca3891]

In regards to the state trooper, I feel like his "off the record" approach must have broken the rules but I'm not an expert. I am so glad he's now serving what sounds like will amount to a life sentence for his child pornography conviction. I wonder what would have happened had there been an actual trial. I'm trying to imagine what I would do if it were my 14 year old molesting my younger children. A lock on their bedroom door obviously wasn't enough, because his behavior escalated to the book reading and laundry room incidents. I know sending your underage child to live somewhere else like a group home would be heartbreaking, but the alternative was so very unfair to the girls. I don't see what other option could have been drastic enough. I can't stop thinking about how one of them told police she still didn't trust him, 3-4 years later. How heartbreaking and unfair.

Edited May 25, 2015 by becca3891

[LilyoftheValley]

How would everyone feel about all this if Josh were a sweet, respectful and humble man?  I think it would make a big difference to me.  The fact that his so clearly unrepetentant is one of the main reasons I hate this man so much at this moment, and cannot simply chalk it up to being a teenage indescretion.  

[Churchhoney]

I agree, she probably won't, but she should. He is most definitely deeply disturbed, and I wouldn't want him around me or my children. He is a disgusting pervert, (and is it just me, or does it seem like a lot of men that grow up in cults (or lead them) are charged with sex offenses?) It's disgusting and inexcusable, and the show should've ended 13 years ago when they found out. I feel awful for those girls.

 

It's not just you. I think cults both attract and, probably, mold (certainly encourage) control freaks and the power obsessed. And since sex offenses are primarily about power and control -- voila. Ugly stuff, and we aren't nearly aware enough of these dynamics. I mean, we KNOW this, but we seem to forget it again and again.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Churchhoney

[bluebonnet]

How would everyone feel about all this if Josh were a sweet, respectful and humble man?  I think it would make a big difference to me.  The fact that his so clearly unrepetentant is one of the main reasons I hate this man so much at this moment, and cannot simply chalk it up to being a teenage indescretion.  

The response would be very different if he was a decent person who made a statement that reflected genuine remorse and understanding of what he did.  Honestly, even a smidgen of remorse might have changed things.  It's almost certain that he had several days in which to craft a statement (InTouch surely would have contacted to see if they could also grab an exclusive statement before releasing the police report) and he and his PR/lawyer team still failed miserably.  The thing is, the response he gave is really the only thing he could give to maintain the carefully crafted family image/brand.  I think they expected that because the world had somehow become smitten with this image and brand they presented, they would continue to do so.  Anyone who wasn't aware of how despicable these people are now have their eyes wide open.  Molestation changes things.

 

But yeah, it still would have made a difference if his statement wasn't so smug and self-centered.  He and his PR team are super tone deaf.  

[Julia]

Raw Story got a copy of Gothard's guidelines for counseling abuse, with sections like

"If the abused is not at fault," "Why did God let it happen?" (which covers defrauding), and "No physical abuse or mighty in spirit—which would you choose?"

. Spoiler tagged for advanced victim blaming.

[Kcat1971]

The WaPo (and as I recall, the dlisted timeline) aren't trying to publicly deduce who the exact victims are based on length of (inexcusably awful) redaction, etc. So they're doing better than this board has. A mod is the only one who's pointed out that it's icky. (And yeah, reading the police report, I couldn't help but draw some conclusions about who each interview could be too, but there's no decent reason to crowdsource - publicly - the identity of real, non-fictitious victims. Who were all minors, and one of whom still is.)

It's easy to view it a little as "it's TV" and try to piece it all together like other shows, but these are real kids in a real police report that, while obtained by ITW legally, sounds like was released to them illegally. A crowdsourced, unredacted version of a molestation investigation isn't really ideal in my book. :-/

(And it sounds like you don't want that either, so it isn't directed at you or anyone specifically! I've just read much more speculation and investigation that only serves to satisfy curiosity here than I have in the timelines, and while I got it initially - "holy shit, look at how young those possibilities were/look at that BS redaction," while it was a fresh shock - it doesn't serve any legit purpose.)

 

 

Thank you for posting that. I'm guilty of the crowd sourcing investigation.  I have a background of training that makes me able to investigate and dissect things in a clinical, non-emotional way and that kicked in. Honestly in my head, I was picturing the adults that we see on t.v. now, who have opened up their lives to public scrutiny.  When someone posted a 2003 picture of family, I had a OMG moment that changed my perspective.  I can tell you that my posts weren't just to satisfy curiosity.   It's how I deal with thing- break them down, examine them closely, get all the information to process.  But how I deal with things doesn't really matter compared to the privacy and respect that the people who lived out this situation deserve.

 

This is one of the things that I love about these boards.  People can have honest discussion about their perspectives, thoughts and feelings.  When an idea is presented in a respectful way it can change someone's mind. (Sometimes, sometimes it doesn't.) 

[GEML]

One thing is, I don't think it is possible for anyone to show genuine remorse because of potential legal ramifications. If Josh came out and said, "I'm so sorry that I molested those girls," that may be laying the ground for a civil lawsuit of some kind. I'm not sure, but he's not going to take that chance. His statement is classic DC lawyer CYA.

[bluebonnet]

Remorse to me, in a lawyer approved statement, would be something along the lines of, "Twelve years ago I hurt people very badly.  I received treatment and I strive to be a better person.  If you are a victim of sexual abuse, please contact blah blah blah at www.blah.org."  This tells me that he at least understands that he didn't simply get caught making out with his girlfriend before they were married, but that what he did was bad and that he understands that are real victims involved.  

[GEML]

You don't use the terms sexual abuse in your statement. Really, if you have never gone through a DC grilling, it's almost impossible to explain the milk toastness of it all, but a lawyer wrote that statement, and there's a reason political people sound so stupid as they do when they get caught doing things so dreadful.

[NextIteration]

A couple things of note for me based on recent posts... the only "timeline" that I was pursuing, honestly was to clear up my confusion regarding the events that unfolded in the last week, what triggered which with regard to the ITW article and subsequent posting of the redacted police record and the request and subsequent destruction of the police record.  

 

Personally, I cannot read the police record, I skimmed it a bit and shut it down, if I read it, I could end up in a fetal position for a week - not good for me.

 

While I am not exactly experiencing schadenfreude about this situation as much as disgust, I have a myriad of political and personal reasons for wanting Josh and his parents taken down (and hypothetically always did, whether or not this awful situation occurred) which have risen exponentially with every bit of exposure I've had to this Gothard evil and how it grooms young girls to be perfect victims of sexual abuse and every other example of how their family structure and belief system reduce females to brood mare status.  I cannot abide fundamentalism of any stripe - it's bad in any form, but especially religious - and this applies to almost all religions, imo.  The U.S. politics of this are abhorrent, these people are systematically trying to take away the reproductive rights of women, which lets face it are also economic rights.  They are also disgusting bigots, mostly about gender and sexual orientation but it absolutely extends to racism.

 

Josh and his parents specifically trade in hate mongering for $$$ and power, and I'm glad that at least one head of this hydra is dead.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Ya'll know that right now the LAW & ORDER: SVU writers are chipping away at their keyboards for their "ripped from the headlines" version of this story.

Almost from the start of this, I've been wondering who's going to play who in the HBO movie of all this.

For some reason, I have been picturing Josh Hutcherson as Josh Duggar and then feeling bad for affiliating him with this clusterfuck of a situation, even if only in my imagination.

[Adiba]

I don't know if Josh's demeanor/ remorse would have necessarily lessened the harm caused to his victims (?)

It may affect the response of some in the public, however, molestation is molestation to the victims.

[Julia]

I'm not looking for details of who the girls were, but there are things in my own history which make me very interested in how and why the parents and their community chose to handle this the way they have. Bluntly, I think Josh Duggar, his parents, and his community have sacrificed their right to privacy on that subject.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Julia