Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[bluebonnet]

 

 

Something that sticks out to me in this statement is that he never once admits to what he did.  If he was truly contrite, then he would use the word "molested".  He could be talking about pretty much anything here.  He never says he actually took any steps himself, only that his parents arranged for that to happen.  He also does not say he actually got the forgiveness that he asked for, probably because deep down he knew that his sisters were not sincere in their forced act of forgiveness.  This whole statement is full of weasel-words and statements that have almost no meaning upon further analysis.  He does not say what he did, nor what he did to get better, or that he ever even changed at all.  This statement is cagey and decepted, and word order shows that his priority is on himself and not his victims.  

I think it's highly likely that a lawyer had a hand in how the whole thing was worded, which is why it reads as an admission that isn't actually admitting to anything.  

[SongbirdHollow]

Again, I have no personal experience with sexual abuse and I am struggling to understand this whole situation, both the victims' and perpetrator's sides. Here's an interesting article published just a few days before the scandal broke that is really opening my eyes:

 

http://boz.religionnews.com/2015/05/15/a-grand-deception-the-successful-response-of-sex-offenders/

[haydensterling]

I'm very glad that God forgives.  

I certainly don't have to.

[NikSac]

I don't know why it took so long but it finally came to me why I am so against placing even the majority of the blame on JB, Michelle, or the kids' "sexually repressed" (or whatever you want to call it) upbringing.  I think their upbringing has been horrible and the "parents" did not do anywhere near enough to protect their daughters or other girls in their home, but I have to place the blame squarely on Josh.  Why?  Because otherwise I have to believe that all the other boys in that household who are/will be/have been raised the same way have also been raised to become incestuous child molesters, or that it's both expected and excused that they'll molest the girls. Please note I'm not speculating that other boys or girls are involved, just saying that I think there is something more wrong with Josh and how he treated his sisters beyond just his upbringing.

[msblossom]

Can we please take the "what I would do if my son molested my daughter" stories to another thread, like the Small Talk: Prayer Closet thread? I know it's not a perfect fit, but we're trying to keep this thread more focused on Josh and the situation that has resulted from his actions.

 

I personally find those stories interesting, but this is the "big thread" right now, and the mods need your help now more than ever in keeping things on topic.

 

Thanks!

I agree, but to be fair, it was one of the mods that started it a few pages ago.

[cooksdelight]

I agree, but to be fair, it was one of the mods that started it a few pages ago.

And I hope you can appreciate that as a mod was reading a page earlier, two more were created since the posts were running so fast. We appreciate everyone picking the appropriate spot to discuss something personal, such as Small Talk, which is what it's for.

[BitterApple]

He's also skirting the truth by implying that he and his parents chose to go to the authorities on their own. They were required to give statements when the police opened an investigation based on the Harpo tip. I don't consider the State trooper valid in this case because Boob approached him informally, no recorded statements were taken.

As far as who knew what and when, I'm basing my opinions off of the police report. IIRC, it was Boob, Michelle, church elders, the State Trooper, the family friend who wrote the letter, the person who found the letter and whomever sent the anonymous email.

Edited May 24, 2015 by BitterApple

[LilyoftheValley]

I'm very glad that God forgives.  

I certainly don't have to.

And neither do the victims. If his sisters never forgave him then that is within in their right. However, because they are brought up in a religious environment that is all about child abuse, they are forced to "forgive" Josh.

I realize now why I hate this forgiveness racket so much: this is Josh's cross to bear, not theirs.  The fundie concept of forgiveness shifts that burden over to the victim.  How can poor little Joshy move on with his life if you do not forgive him?  He said he was sorry.  So now if you not forgive him, you're a bitch.  BTW, child molesters should never be forgiven.  Once that happens, then people start acting like nothing happened, when we know that molesters generally keep doing it.  Perhaps the victim can try to keep family peace, but forgiveness of something like this is a guarantee that it will happen again.  I bet anything that Josh was "forgiven" was he was 14 and continued to molest after that because it was just so damn easy to get away with it, and he knew he could doubly victimize his sisters: first they got molested and then the onus shifted to them to set the whole thing right.  

 

No wonder he so arrogant and smug.  

[xls]

As much as I dislike Josh, I hope his kids don't suffer any major disruptions in their lives from what he's done. They are very young and from what I can see love their father very much. I hope for their continued happiness and they don't have to end up living with the Duggars or Kellers.

[Ljohnson1987]

I hope the victims know that Gothard therapy isn't going to do anything to help them. They need real counseling. Sweeping this under the rug does not seem good for anyone.

[JennyMominFL]

Has this been posted? The court order  stating that a minor requested the record be destroyed

http://radaronline.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Expungement-signed.pdf

[mynextmistake]

I don't know why it took so long but it finally came to me why I am so against placing even the majority of the blame on JB, Michelle, or the kids' "sexually repressed" (or whatever you want to call it) upbringing. I think their upbringing has been horrible and the "parents" did not do anywhere near enough to protect their daughters or other girls in their home, but I have to place the blame squarely on Josh. Why? Because otherwise I have to believe that all the other boys in that household who are/will be/have been raised the same way have also been raised to become incestuous child molesters, or that it's both expected and excused that they'll molest the girls. Please note I'm not speculating that other boys or girls are involved, just saying that I think there is something more wrong with Josh and how he treated his sisters beyond just his upbringing.

In criminal justice there's a theory called "the perfect storm" theory that is sometimes used to explain why crimes occur. The idea is that there's often a confluence of factors behind a criminal event. In the case of child abuse, for example, a certain number of people with unfettered access to young children wouldn't molest them, because they don't have that predisposition. And a certain number of people do have that predisposition won't molest children because they don't have unfettered access. But when you combine the predisposition with unfettered access, then you have a "perfect storm" and you enter a situation in which molestation is more likely to occur. This is a really simplistic example, but it's an interesting theory and one that has always made a lot of sense to me.

Edited to remove speculation.

Edited May 24, 2015 by mynextmistake

[frenchtoast]

We understand that this is a delicate subject, and we want to assign blame, but speculating wildly about law enforcement and if they covered it up is unfounded and bound to be problematic. There was an ongoing conversation about it that has been removed as it was getting a bit too heated. Further posts will also be deleted.

[natyxg]

Something that sticks out to me in this statement is that he never once admits to what he did.  If he was truly contrite, then he would use the word "molested".  He could be talking about pretty much anything here.  He never says he actually took any steps himself, only that his parents arranged for that to happen.  He also does not say he actually got the forgiveness that he asked for, probably because deep down he knew that his sisters were not sincere in their forced act of forgiveness.  This whole statement is full of weasel-words and statements that have almost no meaning upon further analysis.  He does not say what he did, nor what he did to get better, or that he ever even changed at all.  This statement is cagey and decepted, and word order shows that his priority is on himself and not his victims.  

 

Anything that comes out of the Duggars will not be about the truth of their feelings or what is right, IMO, it will be about salvaging their image. This is a PR disaster for them. It's not in the best interest of Josh's image to put together himself with "molested". Same with mentioning the victims being some of his sisters. Saying it was something from when he was a teen has to do with that, too. It's about minimizing things and separating people's minds from the situation, so they are more likely to go to his side.

 

IMO

 

Edited May 24, 2015 by natyxg

[BitterApple]

Has this been posted? The court order stating that a minor requested the record be destroyed

http://radaronline.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Expungement-signed.pdf

I did read about that but for the Duggars I think it's too little too late. The redacted report will live on the Internet forever and it's easy enough to figure out who the victims are. The fact that one is still a minor is a dead giveaway in and of itself.

[Muffyn]

I had the same response to the sections of the police report that talked about books. One child liked reading Adventure and Princess stories - really?  And Josh was reading a book to the kids while the older ones and parents were out to dinner? (about a raccoon or something - not Jesus)  I was very surprised. Especially the types of books mentioned.

 

I can imagine JB and Mechelle convincing themselves that the books were partly to blame for Josh molesting the girls.  Damn evil books leading poor little Joshie astray.  Between that and the girls defrauding him by their very existence as beings without penises, the kid never had a chance.  I cannot believe that they didn't at least put a really strong lock on the girls' bedroom door.

 

Demanding that the child victim of abuse forgive her abuser is just one more level of abuse.  A child can forgive a friend for stealing a toy, but demanding that a little girl forgive her sexual abuser is disgusting.  A child that age does not have a clear enough understanding of the situation to make a decision like that.  When she is mature enough and old enough to fully process what happened to her, she can forgive him if she so chooses.  Personally, I think this whole "forgiveness" thing that fundies go on about is just pure, grade-A bullshit they use to never fully confront their failings.  Also, I personally do not give a shit either way if a child molester got forgiveness, yet they act as though that is the end of the issue.  So these poor girls had to play the dancing monkey on TV for these past years and pretend like everything was hunky-dory with Josh because they "forgave" him.  I feel kind of sick to my stomach now that I watched this show. 

 

Also, I do not believe for one single second that Anna knew all about this before she married him.  I think at best she thought that Josh wasn't a virgin or something, but no way in hell did she know about this.  

 

Oh and my final thought: personally, I think the reason Josh molested his sisters is because he is a smug asshole, period.  I don't think it is because he was raised with odd ideas about sex or because he himself was molested.  He is just a straight-up cocky prick and he always has been one.  He never acts humble or respectful towards his sisters like he would if he really thought he did anything wrong.  He goes out into the world as a full-on authority on what is moral and ethical and he is confident that God is on his side.  

 

Josh did this because he is Josh Duggar, and Josh Duggar is a complete and total self-serving asshole.  

I agree so much.  The cult of forgiveness can really harm victims.  While some people feel they need to be able to forgive to move forward, more people are re-victimized by being forced to forgive.  They are treated as if they are at fault for not being the "bigger person" and forgiving their abuser.  The Duggars have held up Josh like he is the greatest young man ever.  They propped up this monster, convinced him that he was more valuable than his sisters and left him with an overblown sense of his own importance.  At the same time, Josh, the smug prick, is the one who assaulted his sister and other unnamed girls.  

 

I can understand a parent not turning their son into the police for the molestation.  I cannot understand allowing him to remain in the home and to have authority over the very girls he molested.  They created a situation in which the abuse could have continued.  And I am sure, given the twisted beliefs these people choose, that the girls were made to feel that it was their fault.  Again, they had the unmitigated gall to exist and to do something as shameful as sleeping in their own beds in their home, a home that should be a safe place.  These girls and Anna deserve our compassion and support.  Josh, Jim Bob and Michelle deserve to be shamed for their actions in this affair.  

[OhioMom]

Very disappointed to read that post by Guinn. That's her, and tacitly Ben, endorsing what went on.

I'm probably the only person in North America who doesn't have a facebook account, so I can't see the message. May I ask you to paraphrase what it says, please - if that is allowed here, that is.

[mynextmistake]

I think it's highly likely that a lawyer had a hand in how the whole thing was worded, which is why it reads as an admission that isn't actually admitting to anything.

Oh yeah. I'm sure he had a lawyer help him write that statement, and probably a PR team to boot.

[cooksdelight]

I can only imagine the team of attorneys and PR people that are hovering around the dining room table on a nightly basis.

[3 is enough]

Maybe someone with legal knowledge can help me out here.

 

As far as I know, the victim who is still a minor will turn 18 in October.  Maybe that's why there was a rush to destroy the records before her birthday?  Once she is an adult the records could not be destroyed?  Not that they don't want those records destroyed , but was time running out for it to be legally possible?

[Chai]

USA Today has an article "The Duggars reeling from Josh's sex abuse scandal" with a copy of police report. Its listed as a felony.  I just can't wrap my head around this. How this was never prosecuted is beyond me. Talk about falling through the cracks. I don't believe Anna knew about this two years before she was married. What parent would have allowed that?

 

I'm disgusted. I had no idea something this bad was brewing in that house.

[graefin]

It's kind of ironic that the request to destroy the records has had the opposite of the intended effect--the identity of one of his victims is confirmed via process of elimination, we can calculate her age at the time of the molestation, and Josh by extension looks like an even bigger monster.

[merylinkid]

Criminal statute of limitations has run.   It was known and reported, but not pursued until too late.   However, a civil suit brought by the minor could be brought within a certain time after the minor turns 18.    So the minor child could sue Josh after she turned 18.   But with the records being destroyed, a civil suit after all this time would be hard to bring.   If the minor even had the guts to go against the family line of forgiveness and do it.

[questionfear]

Admittedly I don't know much psychology, but I can't give josh an ounce of compassion. I am a lesbian, and I was lucky enough to be born in NJ in the early 80s, so by high school there was some awareness of what gay was and by college I was able to be out and proud. However, during puberty, no one sat me down and explained it was normal for me to prefer Dr Crusher over Lt Riker on Star Trek, or that every young future lesbian had all sorts of feelings when Linda Hamilton did those pull-ups in a tank top in Terminator 2. I was young and confused and frustrated, and I managed to understand the importance of consent and not grabbing or touching people inappropriately. I even had to take group showers with other women and managed to behave. Maybe that low bar is enough for a TLC show?

I'm being slightly flippant but as part of group Josh held up as BAD BAD BAD it's worth noting that the vast majority of glbt folks manage to survive puberty, feeling sexually frustrated, restricted, and alone, in a world that doesn't support them and in some sad cases in homes where they are abused for who they are, without molesting anyone.

As a tangent to that, I firmly believe it's super common for newly out gay people to experience a sort of second puberty. Physically we are mature, but when you finally get to date and experience dating people you are attracted to, there's a period where emotionally you almost play catch-up. I think if Anna divorces Josh, or any of the Duggars break free, they'll experience something similar.

[LilyoftheValley]

Anything that comes out of the Duggars will not be about the truth of their feelings or what is right, IMO, it will be about salvaging their image. This is a PR disaster for them. It's not in the best interest of Josh's image to put together himself with "molested". Same with mentioning the victims being some of his sisters. Saying it was something from when he was a teen has to do with that, too. It's about minimizing things and separating people's minds from the situation, so they are more likely to go to his side.

 

IMO

 

Yeah I get it.  I am pointing out that the "emporer has no clothes" in that statement so to speak.  I really must question how religious the Duggars truly are.  I guess they are in a way, but they have this incredibly immature and childish view of Christianity.  Like, I do not think that the concept of forgiveness is really about just pushing a problem into the darkness and never dealing with it.  And I also do not think that issuing a deceptive statement conforms with the ten commandments.  And I sure as shit am confused as to how having a television show all about yourself is in any way modest.  The Bates family seems just a bit more sincere and deep about their religion, for example.  Anyway, this event really drove it home to me much more than ever.  The Duggars are not actual Christians.  They like the superficial stuff like holding memorials for a stillborn, and wearing long skirts to look pious.  But when they use their religion in the context of something like child molestation, you can see quite clearly that they do not understand one of the key tenets of Christianity, namely contrition and forgiveness.  I really don't thing that a single person in that family has really ever sat down with the Bible and truly thought deeply about what is in there.  It is why they are so loud about the things that are on their level of comprehension, like long hair and women doing the laundry.  Things like pride, modesty, repentence, and forgiveness are simply too complicated for them.  

[mynextmistake]

I can only imagine the team of attorneys and PR people that are hovering around the dining room table on a nightly basis.

I wonder if Michelle is drilling them on spelling words?

One thing I've been wondering. Do you think Jim Bob, Michelle, and Josh are surprised by the reaction this is getting? Frankly, none of them have ever seemed like the sharpest knives in the drawer, and I think they all legitimately believe their Gothard-dictated philosophy of life. So I could really see them sitting around thinking "well, this was a long time ago, and Josh confessed and apologized, and the girls and Jesus have forgiven him, so I don't understand what all the fuss is about." It's scary to think about, because all this public outcry won't make a bit of difference inside that family unless they are self-aware enough to reflect on the fact that maybe the public reaction is a sign that their beliefs and behavior are pretty warped. And I don't think those three smug jerks are capable of reaching that conclusion.

I hope that this will still trigger some outside scrutiny from the police or CPS. But my hopes for internal change have pretty much faded away.

[OhioMom]

I know it's a generic term, and not sexist. But making money off sexual abuse? Sickening. The girls aren't a business venture. Except to TLC.

 

I believe we confirmed there's a mortgage on that house.

I must have totally misread what I was replying to, then.  I don't think they should use the Duggar girls to make money off of what has happened to them.  I just assumed someone decided they were the "cash cows" of the family, because their stories (and courtships and childbirths and whatnot) were more interesting to the viewers than any project JimBob and the boys were working on.

[Quilt Fairy]

Now this article is saying that Josh went away for treatment not the contractor story.  Or am I confused on the time?   Of course the treatment was a Gothard center.   

http://www.inquisitr.com/2113744/treatment-facility-josh-duggar-attended-for-4-months-following-molestation-allegations-revealed/

You need to go back and read the original police report. A lot of news sources are simply regurgitating articles from other sources, and some of them are just getting the facts wrong, pure and simple. Of course the police report is not easy reading between the redactions and the stiff  "police report" phrasing. In addition, it seems that Jim Bob and Michelle have simply said different things at different times, particularly about the so-called "counseling" Josh received.  I get a very Roshomon-type vibe from the whole thing, i.e., the details of an event are seen and reported differently by the different people who saw the event. 

 

I'm still trying to figurer out  why Jim Bob had not one but two lawyers decline to represent Josh at the police investigation in 2006. How often do lawyers refuse cases? If he was as important in state politics as people have said, I'm sure he must have known quite a few lawyers. I can understand why the first one may have declined; maybe it wasn't a field he practiced in. But he referred JB to a second lawyer who - one assumes - did handle this type of case and he declined as well. I'm stumped. Anyone?

[ladle]

My mind keeps going back to that episode in which Ben and Jessa (and Jinger?) go to visit Josh in D.C., and Josh is weirdly competitive with Ben at the gym, and he's all "What are your intentions with my sister?" (paraphrasing)  At the time I just took it as another hackneyed "big bro looking out for his younger sister" plotline, but in light of the fact that he's possibly her molester??  NAUSEATING.  

[BitterApple]

I agree so much. The cult of forgiveness can really harm victims.

I agree and that's one of the reasons I couldn't stand Oprah in her later years because she had a tendency to push the "forgiveness isn't about your abuser, it's really about letting go" b.s. on her guests. It implies you'll be forever stuck in some kind of miserable, unwavering limbo that can only be eliminated through forgiving your tormentor. If the Duggar girls choose to forgive Josh it should be on their terms at their own pace. If they choose not to forgive then that's okay as well and they can still go on to have fulfilling lives. It's not either or.

[cooksdelight]

I wonder if Michelle is drilling them on spelling words?

One thing I've been wondering. Do you think Jim Bob, Michelle, and Josh are surprised by the reaction this is getting? Frankly, none of them have ever seemed like the sharpest knives in the drawer, and I think they all legitimately believe their Gothard-dictated philosophy of life. So I could really see them sitting around thinking "well, this was a long time ago, and Josh confessed and apologized, and the girls and Jesus have forgiven him, so I don't understand what all the fuss is about." It's scary to think about, because all this public outcry won't make a bit of difference inside that family unless they are self-aware enough to reflect on the fact that maybe the public reaction is a sign that their beliefs and behavior are pretty warped. And I don't think those three smug jerks are capable of reaching that conclusion.

I hope that this will still trigger some outside scrutiny from the police or CPS. But my hopes for internal change have pretty much faded away.

If you are familiar with the Honey Boo Boo family, it was the same reaction when photos leaked out of June in bed with her former boyfriend, convicted pedophile, etc. while her 8-yr-old daughter was with them. She couldn't understand what all the fuss was about.

Not that these two families are anything alike. Or.... well, nevermind. :)

I do hope the kids get whatever help they need from an OUTSIDE source since I think once the wagons get rounded up, it's over.

[Chai]

blindgossip.com/?p=71479#more-71479

 

Blind gossip is reporting that the studio executives knew about the abuse and did nothing.

[LilyoftheValley]

I agree and that's one of the reasons I couldn't stand Oprah in her later years because she had a tendency to push the "forgiveness isn't about your abuser, it's really about letting go" b.s. on her guests. It implies you'll be forever stuck in some kind of miserable, unwavering limbo that can only be eliminated through forgiving your tormentor. If the Duggar girls choose to forgive Josh it should be on their terms at their own pace. If they choose not to forgive then that's okay as well and they can still go on to have fulfilling lives. It's not either or.

How on earth could the five year old girl forgive him?  Did she really even have a clear understanding of the situation?  I doubt it.  Oh my God I am so disturbed right now thinking this through.  So first of all, the five year old already knows way too much about sex because her parents are obsessed with talking about, so right there she must have already been a bit confused.  Then her brother does something to her which she has been told is wrong, but only in the context of it being outside of marriage, and not in the context of how a good mother would talk to her child about inappropirate touching.  And after all that, were Josh and her parents all three crying at the dining room table and pleading with her to forgive him?  Jaysus this is some fucked up shit.  Who puts anything like this a five year old?  So a kindergartener is now supposed to be the bigger person in this situation....

 

Again, I can totally see how Josh became the smug douchebag he is today.  

[Quilt Fairy]

Yeah I get it.  I am pointing out that the "emporer has no clothes" in that statement so to speak.  I really must question how religious the Duggars truly are.  I guess they are in a way, but they have this incredibly immature and childish view of Christianity.  Like, I do not think that the concept of forgiveness is really about just pushing a problem into the darkness and never dealing with it.  And I also do not think that issuing a deceptive statement conforms with the ten commandments.  And I sure as shit am confused as to how having a television show all about yourself is in any way modest.  The Bates family seems just a bit more sincere and deep about their religion, for example.  Anyway, this event really drove it home to me much more than ever.  The Duggars are not actual Christians.  They like the superficial stuff like holding memorials for a stillborn, and wearing long skirts to look pious.  But when they use their religion in the context of something like child molestation, you can see quite clearly that they do not understand one of the key tenets of Christianity, namely contrition and forgiveness.  I really don't thing that a single person in that family has really ever sat down with the Bible and truly thought deeply about what is in there.  It is why they are so loud about the things that are on their level of comprehension, like long hair and women doing the laundry.  Things like pride, modesty, repentence, and forgiveness are simply too complicated for them.  

This is called "legalism", which is the basis of the Christian patriarchy movement.  They take sentences and phrases from the Bible without context and they can twist them to mean anything they want.

[BitterApple]

They knew about the abuse while it was happening or they knew about the police report? Josh was never charged or convicted of anything so I'm not sure that TLC holds any culpability here. Yes, they deliberately produced a show based on a lie but that's no different than any other reality show. At the end of the day it's a business, the network isn't a social service agency.

[jeremyman]

hi i am new here where do i go to introduce myself    

btw  i went on the 19 kids Facebook page and told them i am embarrassed they are in my state    the parents that it should be canceled     etc   

[LilyoftheValley]

I must have totally misread what I was replying to, then.  I don't think they should use the Duggar girls to make money off of what has happened to them.  I just assumed someone decided they were the "cash cows" of the family, because their stories (and courtships and childbirths and whatnot) were more interesting to the viewers than any project JimBob and the boys were working on.

I think it is the overall story of what happened here that is abusive.  Four of the daughters were sexually abused by their own brother.  He never got help for it and they never got help for it.  They "forgave" him and he said he was sorry and from that point on, they were supposed to act like happy and sweet daughters and sisters.  If they didn't, then they were not being good Christian women.  Then they were required to put on this charade on television in front of millions of people.  Now keep in mind that all these girls were minors who were living at home when the show started.  They had no choice but to have their intimate home life put on display.  Not only that, but they were required to make damn sure that not a hint of their unhappiness or anger they had towards their brother or their parents ever came out.  Look, I am not saying that family cannot be whole after something like this happens, but sweeping it under the rug and then making the girls "show off" what good little perfect Gothard girls they were on television for years on end is absolutely horrifying to me.  

 

What I see here is these girls all carrying a very heavy cross just so that their parents could have the endless pride that comes with being rich and famous for being the most Godly and good people on earth.  It's abuse.  

[ladle]

I wonder if Michelle is drilling them on spelling words?

 

Probably not, since everything in that statement was spelled correctly.  :)

[Fuzzysox]

hi i am new here where do i go to introduce myself    

btw  i went on the 19 kids Facebook page and told them i am embarrassed they are in my state    the parents that it should be canceled     etc

Welcome. You can go to the Small Talk thread.

[Grits]

I have been reading about the Duggars for years on TWOP and now this site. I never posted. The sociologist in me loved watching their different lifestyle and reading the snark on the boards. I have to express my view on what has happened. We all knew about the allegations. I just never imagined that it happen to one of his sisters. How could that happen all these years. It was swept under the rug while cameras were rolling in the home of children. The girls are victims. They were violated in their home by their brother. Today two of the girls are smiling and posting on their Instagram like everything is fine. How can they act as though their life is normal? Where are our values. It is not okay that Josh Duggar violated his sisters. It is wrong. The other day I watched some old episodes and two of the little kids gave a questionable talking head. This was before the Josh story. I hope child labor laws are made in order to protect children in reality genre. The girls never asked for any of this. They have been used and abused. I just needed to get this out. I think I am done with reality tv.

[lilabennet]

Lilabennet, the quick answer is that it depends on the state. NY and CA have the strongest laws protecting children in reality TV, and most other states's laws are pretty weak if they even exist in the first place.

 

Someone else will likely have a more complete explanation, but the short answer is to not count on the Duggar kids getting any help from that angle.

 

Let me check with the other mods. We'll let you know as soon as we can.

 

 

You are referring to the California Child Actor's Bill here, often called the Coogan Law.  There is no Federal Law protecting child performers and setting aside percentages of their earnings for future use by the child.  Each State has its own child labor laws but provisions protecting children working in entertainment vary widely.  The California Coogan Law has been copied by a few other states (New York and Pennsylvania, for example) but in most states children working in entertainment have very few protections and no money is set aside for them.   See www.minorcon.org for further information.

Thank you, both, for answering my question to the best of your knowledge.  I will take the rest of what I would like to say to the Money and Jobs thread.

[Mrsjumbo]

Exactly This can't have been completely out of the blue for TLC. The rumors have around for ages, and there's absolutely no way the producers and power be didn't have an inkling. Frankly, I would like to see the powers at TLC explain how they cheerfuly displayed a child molester for bucks as an example to America, and also why does TLC consistently promote extremely right wing families?

[3girlsforus]

OMG. This is heartbreaking. Look at little Joy. How do Jim Bob and Michelle live with themselves?

 

I think I'm going to be sick. I've been bordering on ill since this broke but that photo just pushed me over the edge.

[msblossom]

One point I do feel compelled to point out - not everyone needs or gets better through therapy. It's a modern day invention, and people for millennia have been going through trauma and despair without it. That doesn't mean I don't think the girls involved shouldn't get help IF THEY WANT IT, but their entire lives have been about doing what they are "supposed" to do.

On the chance that they have, I some way, come to terms with what happened to them, they are and should be free to handle the fallout however they wish. Whether that is in therapy, speaking out against their family, speaking out for their family, becoming advocates for other sexual abuse victims, removing themselves from the public eye - or anything in between.

But what is almost certain to happen is that no matter what choice they make, we (collective we) will in some way criticize at least one or more for making it. Every time they don't do what we want them to do, there is a tendency to assume they are "brainwashed", "drinking the koolaid," or "too afraid" etc because it couldn't POSSIBLY be that they are saying something that might be true. But I simply ask if that isn't, possibly, denying them they own capacity for adulthood the way their religion does, which we claim we are all against? It's just a thought. To be honest, I'm not always sure where the lines should be drawn. I use those phrases too. But I also believe in personal autonomy and the power of forgiveness and reconciliation. That doesn't mean they have to interact with Josh, or enjoy being with him any more, but it might mean they don't have to feel ashamed or hate him now.

I think a lot of things were said late night in the girls' room, when the littles were asleep and JB and M were "trying." I think a lot was shared in Anna's home when Josh was at work. I think plenty of things in the family have been talked about a LOT without the parents and Josh ever knowing how much needed to be said. And maybe because they all had the strength to do that - those quiet, almost whispered conversations in the dark - they've found the ability to move forward and maybe even find some happiness.

Except for Jana. We are all still worried about Jana.

You may have a point. I'll be honest, if I were in their shoes, the last thing I would want to do is spend an hour on a weekly basis with a therapist I don't know and re-live the whole experience again, especially if I felt I'd moved on from it. It's possible they have forgiven Josh and worked through the trauma of their molestation. But I firmly believe that each and every one of the girls is brainwashed and drinking the Duggar Kool-Aid and until they have a more autonomous life away from JB & M, I'm not sure they really know if they need to seek counseling to work through their trauma. It's possible they might not recognize it until they start having daughters of their own.

Up until a couple days ago, a lot of us thought this thing with Josh was an isolated incident with one, maybe two girls to whom he was not related to, and blown out of proportion. Now, we know at least part of the truth. My point is, I think we all want to make sense of something that keeps getting bigger and uglier as more details come forth, so we keep adjusting our opinion and our need for justice as more information comes out. For me, I'm almost afraid of what else may come to the surface over the next week or two.

[Churchhoney]

I notice that the Benham brothers -- the almost-reality-stars pre-canceled by HGTV over anti-gay comments -- are still on the schedule for the Sandusky homeschooling conference. Nice to see that all the really important educational issues will be covered at this event. They can pick up the homophobic slack created by Josh's withdrawal.

 

Wonder how long Josh will be a pariah to this extent. The longer that goes on, the bigger the hit to his wallet, unfortunately for Anna, who's going to have an awful lot to struggle with.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Churchhoney

[BitterApple]

Isn't it true that the Arkansas state trooper that the Duggars took Josh to is in prison for kiddy porn? And that the almighty Mr. Gothard is locked up for sex crime(s)?

Yes to the first, no to the second. Gothard has sex abuse allegations going back for years but has never been prosecuted.

[LilyoftheValley]

You need to go back and read the original police report. A lot of news sources are simply regurgitating articles from other sources, and some of them are just getting the facts wrong, pure and simple. Of course the police report is not easy reading between the redactions and the stiff  "police report" phrasing. In addition, it seems that Jim Bob and Michelle have simply said different things at different times, particularly about the so-called "counseling" Josh received.  I get a very Roshomon-type vibe from the whole thing, i.e., the details of an event are seen and reported differently by the different people who saw the event. 

 

I'm still trying to figurer out  why Jim Bob had not one but two lawyers decline to represent Josh at the police investigation in 2006. How often do lawyers refuse cases? If he was as important in state politics as people have said, I'm sure he must have known quite a few lawyers. I can understand why the first one may have declined; maybe it wasn't a field he practiced in. But he referred JB to a second lawyer who - one assumes - did handle this type of case and he declined as well. I'm stumped. Anyone?

I am a lawyer.  Once you take on a client, even just for a short period of time, you develop an attorney-client relationship and a lot comes along with that.  It is very hard to "fire" a client.  I most certainly would not have taken this on under the circumstances.  This would have been a highly sensitive case which involved several minor children and two adults who are quite weird.  The smartest thing a lawyer can do is just to refuse outright.  You could meet with them briefly just to discuss some preliminary matters and now under the law you are their lawyer.  It's not worth it.  

[sara416]

This is completely untrue.  Orthodontics is a multi-step operation that must have steps planned out in advance.  You don't just go into some as extensive as jaw realingment surgery without first ensuring the position of the teeth have begun to move into their proper place - that proper place being where they should end up once the jaw is correctly aligned.  I know this because I've had jaw realignment surgery and due to ongoing complications (unrelated, jaw later broken in car accident and didn't heal properly), I continue to see my oral orthodontic surgeon and see and interact with all the jaw surgery patients there.  I wouldn't say recovery is excrutiating, not after the first week.  It's more psychological.  I would have panic attacks because there is something very claustrophobic about having the teeth wired shut (usually wired using the braces, btw).  Great weight loss plan, though.  Blended pizza, yummy.  

 

I have no idea what Derrick's dental issues are, but I've seen it mentioned several times in this thread that he had jaw surgery and people making weird speculations about the braces. Some might do this strictly for cosmetic reasons, but I doubt it's some attempt at birth control.  Improperly aligned jaws can lead to lifelong issues.  

I don't mean to nitpick here, but I had braces for 5 years as well as maxillofacial surgery. I had the surgery while I had braces on. I had my bottom jaw essentially cut in half and realigned because I had a 12mm overjet. And yes, lol, it is a great weight loss plan. Not enjoyable or long lasting, but effective!

Edited May 24, 2015 by sara416

[Fuzzysox]

Isn't it true that the Arkansas state trooper that the Duggars took Josh to is in prison for kiddy porn? And that the almighty Mr. Gothard is locked up for sex crime(s)?

The trooper yes but Gothard no. I messaged the Recovering Grace FB page a year ago suggesting who they could turn to to investigate Gothard but I never heard what happened afterwards.

If Gothard was touching girls of course he would preach that nothing was a guys fault why would the asshole implicate himself?

Edited May 24, 2015 by Fuzzysox

[3girlsforus]

Has this been posted? The court order  stating that a minor requested the record be destroyed

http://radaronline.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Expungement-signed.pdf

 

Is this something JimBob and Michele could have petitioned without permission from the actual victim since she's a minor?