Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[sagittarius sue]

6 minutes ago, MaryAnneSpier said:

Did the Kellers know the full extent of what Josh did before he married Anna? Or were they led to believe he “sinned” by consensually kissing a girl his age like we outsiders thought? 

I think that they were told what JB has publicly said.  It was youthful exploration, it was over their clothes while they were asleep, and the victims weren't even aware of it.

[Ohiopirate02]

6 minutes ago, MaryAnneSpier said:

Did the Kellers know the full extent of what Josh did before he married Anna? Or were they led to believe he “sinned” by consensually kissing a girl his age like we outsiders thought? 

We honestly do not know what the Kellers knew when they allowed Anna to marry Josh.  It's difficult to determine when the cult views consensual sexual acts with someone other than your spouse, masturbation, and nonconsensual sexual acts with someone other than your spouse as being the same.  

[Tikichick]

6 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Young kids (and adults) see themselves of extensions of their parents. So if their parent is bad, they think they are somehow bad too. There's plenty of time when they're older to find out what a creep their dad is. Hopefully then they'll be able to separate who they are from who their dad is.

Even the oldest are far too young to know the real allegations and the reality of the conviction.  I said yesterday in response to the idea that the kids should know the truth that it was far too heavy a burden and I hope a genuinely loving, caring adult has merely explained to them that dad has broken some rules/laws and has to spend some time in jail as his punishment for doing so.   Sufficiently sums up the truth of the situation without doing damage to the kids who are old enough to need an explanation. 

[Minivanessa]

Just now, Ohiopirate02 said:

We honestly do not know what the Kellers knew when they allowed Anna to marry Josh.  It's difficult to determine when the cult views consensual sexual acts with someone other than your spouse, masturbation, and nonconsensual sexual acts with someone other than your spouse as being the same.  

Yep. I tend to think that at least Pa Keller had some idea. I suspect there was some gossip about it circulating in the fundie-IFB world. But as you said, they seem to conflate very different kinds of acts into a generalized "sin." Considering the patriarchal misogyny that prevails in their heads, I think Pa Keller was fine with the deal. 

My take is that the Kellers were happy that Anna was marrying a Duggar. The Duggars were famous in the outside world and thus extra-famous in fundie circles - and they have more money than most. They weren't squeezing all those kids into a double-wide by the time of the engagement. They were living large thanks to TLC. 

But I don't assume that Pa Keller thought he would be gaining any status in fundie land through Anna's marriage. IMO those fundie headship guys are prideful. They think they're all that and a bag of chips. Pa Keller probably thought he was doing fine in the fundie world and didn't need any Duggar stardust.

Also, I've wondered if JB is all that well-respected or liked in the fundie world. Maybe all those guys are as obnoxious as JB is, so he fits right in. Possibly, most of them are tin-pot domestic dictators with fantasies of running the patriarchy outside their families as well as inside, so there's a certain amount of rivalry and elbowing each other to get attention and status. Not that I'm going to meet any of them to find out, lol. 

[libgirl2]

I think Pa Keller wasn't seeking the spotlight, cause if he was he had ample opportunity to be in it. The Kellers seem to keep to themselves. I think he figured he was making a "good match" for Anna. 

[Scarlett45]

One hundred fifty one months. 

151.

I am pleased with the sentencing. Of course I would've loved the max, but given the history of sentencing for these type of offenses, I think it was to be expected. 

I am thankful for those with more legal knowledge than I in this area providing their opinion and analyzing things for us. I will likely read the official sentencing document one of these days, for the academic knowledge. I have no desire or need to read the court transcript.

My heart goes out to the victims, and to the Duggar siblings and the M children who are all affected by Josh's crimes. Having a parent in prison isn't easy, and the M children had no say in the matter. I am of the opinion that Mac and Michael are plenty old enough to know what happened and what their father is in prison for- in a perfect world they would have some space to work through that, and what it means for them, but this the Duggars we are speaking about.

I have to just point out, that it speaks to what a pure ass you are, that you had 13 adult siblings (Jackson wasn't an adult when the sentencing letters were due) and NOT ONE would write a letter for you. Not even denying your guilt, but a simple "My brother is much loved and a valuable member of the family, he will be deeply missed, I understand he has to serve time, but please do not keep him from his family and support system longer than necessary." type of letter.

As for JB and Michelle- they are his parents and gave him life, under any circumstances I wouldn't be surprised that they paid for his legal defense and visited /wrote to him, no matter if they believed he was guilty and horrified by what he did. I will be more charitable than they deserve, and say it has to hurt to see your most special snowflake incarcerated. I don't think JB and Michelle handled Josh's abuse of his sisters appropriately- but I don't think they are to blame.

I think Josh is a creep, entitled asshole and would've been this way in ANY family. I said in 2015 that this would not be the last, JB was getting older and could not watch Josh forever. Unfortunately I was right.

[Scarlett45]

12 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

Yep. I tend to think that at least Pa Keller had some idea. I suspect there was some gossip about it circulating in the fundie-IFB world. But as you said, they seem to conflate very different kinds of acts into a generalized "sin." Considering the patriarchal misogyny that prevails in their heads, I think Pa Keller was fine with the deal. 

My take is that the Kellers were happy that Anna was marrying a Duggar. The Duggars were famous in the outside world and thus extra-famous in fundie circles - and they have more money than most. They weren't squeezing all those kids into a double-wide by the time of the engagement. They were living large thanks to TLC. 

I think its likely Pa Keller knew what happened. Anna maybe not. Anna may have been told he "struggled with keeping his heart right" which to us typical folk means masturbation, consensual activity with a peer- not that you a preying on your younger siblings. Given that Anna has older brothers that she seems close to, I would think she would be horrified had she learned the truth before she married him.

But likely not, she was marrying into fundy royalty and going to live a comfortable life and have a bunch of babies. I really do not know.

[Tikichick]

11 hours ago, LilyD said:

I'm glad he's going to be locked up for quite some time. But what spoils the joy for me is all the pro-Duggar pleas and letters. Yes, it was to be expected but still... None of them acknowledged the severity of what he did. They refuse to accept that this man is a very real threat to children. It scares me, it really does.

In a way, that makes them all almost as dangerous as Josh. You can't protect kids if you cannot won't recognise and stop potential (or in this case very obvious) danger.... 

Those letters did not serve the purpose the authors intended, quite the opposite.   The Judge's comments weren't complimentary, but a master stroke by a skilled orator to highlight data he used to inform his sentencing decision with a seemingly benign/positive comment that shines like klieg lights if reviewed by an appellate court.

The Judge didn't have to note that none of the parties on Josh's side of the equation give a bleep about hurting children because they went to the trouble to put it down in black and white for posterity.   

[laurakaye]

17 hours ago, Panopticon said:

Nice chart from our friends at Reddit:

This is helpful - so hopefully because the youngest M&M will only be 12 when FF gets out, I'm assuming that he would still not be able to move home for at least another 6 years.

9 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

The Duggars will support Anna as long as she remains on the same page as them, believing in his innocence. The second she thinks differently, all support will cease.

1 hour ago, merylinkid said:

Oh I imagine that Anna will be delusional right up to the day she dies.   She will believe he is coming home ANY DAY now.   

as for her parents, they KNEW what he did to his sisters and let her marry him anyway.   There is no way they are going to step up and help her now.  She was the sacrificial lamb to get them into higher levels in Fundy Land.

What a disaster...Anna doesn't have a prayer.  Even if she had one single independent thought in her brain regarding the sludgepile she married, her own parents allowed it to happen and her in-laws have her over a barrel as well if she wants to feed her kids.  She literally has no one to turn to even if she wanted to.  I can't help but feel sorry for the M&M's, who didn't ask to be born into this three-ring circus and now have a felon for a dad and a brainwashed zombie for a mother, with likely no help coming to help them process what their young lives have become.

[Scarlett45]

@Salacious Kitty I agree with you, but with a slightly different take. I think Anna has more power than she realizes. I don't think JB/Michelle think Josh is innocent, I don't think they expect Anna to believe it. I think Anna would continue to receive the same level of support from JB has been given so long as she toted the party line, and contributed to the TTH in someway (homeschooling the Lost Girls, chores etc). If Anna had put her foot down and said she was disgusted by Josh and wouldn't live with him any more, so long as she didn't blast that on social media- JB would've supported what she wanted.

Josh has broken HIS vows, he is no longer a provider or a headship. 

But Anna WANTS Josh (for whatever reason), we know she wants him because of how she acted after the birth of Meredith. JB and Michelle are smarter than Anna, they also raised Josh- they know what he is like.

[Notabug]

58 minutes ago, MaryAnneSpier said:

Did the Kellers know the full extent of what Josh did before he married Anna? Or were they led to believe he “sinned” by consensually kissing a girl his age like we outsiders thought? 

Even if they were told the full extent, they are Gothardites.  Gothard taught that virtually any sexual 'sin' including molestation and rape, was the fault of the woman.  That evil women, even children, could tempt a man to commit sinful acts.  Therefore, even if they did know (and I think they got a sanitized version from JB and didn't ask any questions); they would be more than happy to have attributed it to the devil working through the girls to tempt Josh-U-a to stray.  Gothard was pretty consistent in his messaging:  it is NEVER the man's fault.

If you know anything about Gothard, you understand why he said that.

[Ohiopirate02]

26 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

Yep. I tend to think that at least Pa Keller had some idea. I suspect there was some gossip about it circulating in the fundie-IFB world. But as you said, they seem to conflate very different kinds of acts into a generalized "sin." Considering the patriarchal misogyny that prevails in their heads, I think Pa Keller was fine with the deal. 

11 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I think its likely Pa Keller knew what happened. Anna maybe not. Anna may have been told he "struggled with keeping his heart right" which to us typical folk means masturbation, consensual activity with a peer- not that you a preying on your younger siblings. Given that Anna has older brothers that she seems close to, I would think she would be horrified had she learned the truth before she married him.

But likely not, she was marrying into fundy royalty and going to live a comfortable life and have a bunch of babies. I really do not know.

These assholes also operate under the belief that Josh only acted the way he did because he was single.  What Josh really needed was a wife.  I can see how Pa Keller would be able to convince Anna that marrying Josh would be saving him from a life of sin by becoming his wife and giving Josh a means to righteously fulfill the sexual desires that were plaguing him.  It never occurred to them that Josh needed more than a God-approved sperm receptacle.  Nope, all Josh needed was a wife and his sins would disappear.  

[Notabug]

6 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

@Salacious Kitty I agree with you, but with a slightly different take. I think Anna has more power than she realizes. I don't think JB/Michelle think Josh is innocent, I don't think they expect Anna to believe it. I think Anna would continue to receive the same level of support from JB has been given so long as she toted the party line, and contributed to the TTH in someway (homeschooling the Lost Girls, chores etc). If Anna had put her foot down and said she was disgusted by Josh and wouldn't live with him any more, so long as she didn't blast that on social media- JB would've supported what she wanted.

Josh has broken HIS vows, he is no longer a provider or a headship. 

But Anna WANTS Josh (for whatever reason), we know she wants him because of how she acted after the birth of Meredith. JB and Michelle are smarter than Anna, they also raised Josh- they know what he is like.

I agree that JB and Michelle believe that Joshua committed the crimes; I think they don't believe that he deserves the punishment, though.  As others have noted, they lump CSAM info the same basket with adult porn and fornication and other non-criminal behaviors.  But, I think that they believe that, because they are God's extra special snowflakes, that this mitigates anything Josh has done and should've been taken into account in his sentencing.  He is repentant and made it right with Jesus and that should've counted for something in their opinion.  They honestly think that, because he believes in the 'right' Jesus and goes to church and has a passel o'kids because they don't use contraception; that this is proof that he is somehow not like other convicted felons.  I don't think they have a problem with Anna, whatever she believes as far as Josh' innocence or guilt; as long as she agrees that his sentence was unfairly harsh.

[Scarlett45]

10 minutes ago, Notabug said:

I agree that JB and Michelle believe that Joshua committed the crimes; I think they don't believe that he deserves the punishment, though.  As others have noted, they lump CSAM info the same basket with adult porn and fornication and other non-criminal behaviors.  But, I think that they believe that, because they are God's extra special snowflakes, that this mitigates anything Josh has done and should've been taken into account in his sentencing.  He is repentant and made it right with Jesus and that should've counted for something in their opinion.  They honestly think that, because he believes in the 'right' Jesus and goes to church and has a passel o'kids because they don't use contraception; that this is proof that he is somehow not like other convicted felons.  I don't think they have a problem with Anna, whatever she believes as far as Josh' innocence or guilt; as long as she agrees that his sentence was unfairly harsh.

Oh I see, I hadn't thought about it that way.

[Snow Fairy]

32 minutes ago, Notabug said:

Even if they were told the full extent, they are Gothardites.  Gothard taught that virtually any sexual 'sin' including molestation and rape, was the fault of the woman.  That evil women, even children, could tempt a man to commit sinful acts.  Therefore, even if they did know (and I think they got a sanitized version from JB and didn't ask any questions); they would be more than happy to have attributed it to the devil working through the girls to tempt Josh-U-a to stray.  Gothard was pretty consistent in his messaging:  it is NEVER the man's fault.

If you know anything about Gothard, you understand why he said that.

But who tempted Josh to download the materials? That was all him, from his head

Edited May 26, 2022 by Snow Fairy

[libgirl2]

2 minutes ago, Snow Fairy said:

But who tempted Josh to download the materials? That was all him, from his head

Those of us who are sensible and don't swallow this pile of s--- way of believing know that. These people don't. Somehow Anna failed him and he had to seek  his pleasure elsewhere. 

[SusanM]

I honestly can't figure Anna out.  There was a time when I had pity for her because I felt that she was trapped and would make changes for herself and her kids but was too intimidated to do anything for herself.  Then I started reading some of the hateful things she has posted and then in terms of what's happening with Josh she seems to determined to believe it was all a conspiracy to take down her godly man.  I mean there comes a point where you have to say "she didn't just drink the kool ade, she made the kool ade".  That's where I am with Anna now,

[cmr2014]

42 minutes ago, Notabug said:

I agree that JB and Michelle believe that Joshua committed the crimes; I think they don't believe that he deserves the punishment, though.  As others have noted, they lump CSAM info the same basket with adult porn and fornication and other non-criminal behaviors.  But, I think that they believe that, because they are God's extra special snowflakes, that this mitigates anything Josh has done and should've been taken into account in his sentencing.  He is repentant and made it right with Jesus and that should've counted for something in their opinion.  They honestly think that, because he believes in the 'right' Jesus and goes to church and has a passel o'kids because they don't use contraception; that this is proof that he is somehow not like other convicted felons.  I don't think they have a problem with Anna, whatever she believes as far as Josh' innocence or guilt; as long as she agrees that his sentence was unfairly harsh.

I think Anna believes that Joshua was framed by the evil government and is being persecuted because he's a Christian.

I think that JB thinks that Joshua did the crime, but that it's a "sin" not a "crime" and should be dealt with within the religious community (e.g. by him).

I think J'chelle tries very hard not to think of it at all . . .

[libgirl2]

Does anyone know or was it brought up already, if the M kids can go along to visit him in prison? 

[Lady Whistleup]

Jase Duggar's statement. 

You can tell how much pain Josh has caused his siblings. 

[SusanM]

Interesting that there has been a public acknowledgement by at least one Duggar that Josh did the crime and should do the time.  I appreciated in this statement that he asked god to help Josh, he didn't say god had already forgiven him so it's all good.

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Jase Duggar's statement. 

You can tell how much pain Josh has caused his siblings. 

That is a fair statement. Josh has hurt a lot of people, and he has lived a hypocritical life. Forgiveness does not mean a life without consequences, it does not mean a pardon. I think Jason's statement was genuine. 

I do not have any experience with this type of circumstance, but I do know how it feels to have someone you looked up to as a child, and longed to emulate, DEEPLY disappoint and hurt you. I cannot imagine how Jason feels as a younger brother that may have looked up to and trusted Josh, learn these awful things about him. And to reconcile that with loving him.

If Josh has two ounces of humanity in him (not saying he does), he would be apologizing to his family for what his choices have done to them, and spend the rest of his life trying to make things right for them and of course victims of CSAM. 

[libgirl2]

Just now, Scarlett45 said:

That is a fair statement. Josh has hurt a lot of people, and he has lived a hypocritical life. Forgiveness does not mean a life without consequences, it does not mean a pardon. I think Jason's statement was genuine. 

I do not have any experience with this type of circumstance, but I do know how it feels to have someone you looked up to as a child, and longed to emulate, DEEPLY disappoint and hurt you. I cannot imagine how Jason feels as a younger brother that may have looked up to and trusted Josh, learn these awful things about him. And to reconcile that with loving him.

If Josh has two ounces of humanity in him (not saying he does), he would be apologizing to his family for what his choices have done to them, and spend the rest of his life trying to make things right for them and of course victims of CSAM. 

I don't think he has an ounce of humanity in him, but I hope he does for the sake of his family. He should be apologizing but in his mind and what he professes, he is not guilty, yet I can see that his family believes he is. 

[GeeGolly]

What a mature statement from Jason. I'm going to guess most, if not all, of his siblings feel the same way - to differing degrees.

I think JB & M likely feel similar, but wanted Josh to receive 5 years.

Anna is just not ready to believe Josh is guilty. This, IMO is not a Fundy thing. I see it all the time with clients in various situations. She may or may not get there.

[Zella]

I don't think Josh will ever apologize because I don't think he cares how much he hurt his family. He wouldn't have dragged them through the trial if he cared. I think the only person he truly feels sorry for is himself.

[Minivanessa]

4 minutes ago, SusanM said:

Interesting that there has been a public acknowledgement by at least one Duggar that Josh did the crime and should do the time.  I appreciated in this statement that he asked god to help Josh, he didn't say god had already forgiven him so it's all good.

Yes. BTW Jill and Derick posted a statement on their blog: https://www.dillardfamily.com/2022/05/our-response-to-joshs-sentencing/ which we've been discussing over on that topic. It wasn't surprising to me - although it was heartening - that they flat out said Josh had avoided consequences for his behavior and hope that years in prison may make him safe to be in society again. Not surprised as they are long gone from the TTH and JB's sphere of control.

TBH I was surprised by the strength of this statement from Jason, who's younger and hasn't broken with his parents. Good for him. I am sorry that Josh has put a stain on the family name and caused so much pain to innocent family members. 

[js9548]

Do Federal prisons allow in person visitation? Does it depend on which prison he is assigned?  I got the impression from reading this site that the jail Josh is currently at, only allows remote visitation. Is that the case at the Federal level because of Covid?

[Absolom]

The federal system at least at one of the prisons the judge recommended allows in person visits, but it's no touching with a plexiglass divider between inmate and two visitors (possible third is a lap child).  The jail is still listing remote only visits. 

[Minivanessa]

@GeeGolly posted as I was writing this with info on one of the prisons the judge recommended.

For an overview, the Federal Bureau of Prisons has this information about their operational modifications for COVID, which looks complicated. In-person visitation is permitted, depending on the operational status of the facility under that rating system. Here's the page: https://www.bop.gov/coronavirus/covid19_modified_operations_guide.jsp

Overview of federal prison visitation is here: https://www.bop.gov/inmates/visiting.jsp

[Lady Whistleup]

I don't think Josh cares about the pain he's caused his family. I think he's a sociopath. If he cared, he wouldn't have caused this much pain in the first place.

[GeeGolly]

How many of y'all think Josh will not reoffend after his stint in prison?

[libgirl2]

7 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

How many of y'all think Josh will not reoffend after his stint in prison?

I do 

[SusanM]

9 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

How many of y'all think Josh will not reoffend after his stint in prison?

Based on his downward spiral I hate to even think about what his next offense could be but I am pretty sure there will be something.

[quarks]

5 hours ago, Tdoc72 said:

Anyone know if these type of appeals work out or not?  

For federal appeals, rarely.

And in Josh's particular case, some of the stuff he's appealing - like the "the Homeland Security secretary wasn't the legal Homeland Security secretary!" is, to put it kindly, ridiculous. (I was going to add, "in my opinion," but this appears to be the nearly universal opinion of a number of attorneys and Judge Brooks, so I am sticking with "ridiculous.") So ridiculous that a federal appeals court is probably going to ignore it.

The only possibly maybe possible argument he might maybe possibly have is his argument that the original computer search was a violation of his Fourth and Fifth Amendment rights, and thus illegal, and since the search warrant for the car lot was based on evidence gathered from that search, the search warrant was also illegal and thus has to be thrown out, along with all the evidence gathered from that search - which pretty much is the evidence. However, Judge Brooks did take his time researching that argument and said yeah, no, which doesn't bode well for the appeal.

19 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I don't think Josh cares about the pain he's caused his family. I think he's a sociopath. If he cared, he wouldn't have caused this much pain in the first place.

If Josh cared about his family at all, he would have accepted a plea bargain last year, saving all of them time, money and stress. 

[Scarlett45]

7 minutes ago, quarks said:

If Josh cared about his family at all, he would have accepted a plea bargain last year, saving all of them time, money and stress. 

I can agree with this. But I think Josh was so smug he really thought he would be acquitted. 
 

He’s going to have a lot of time to think in prison, without any of the “distractions” of the free world (like junk food, the internet etc). 
 

I do think (and have said before) that I think Josh has a tiny amount of affection for Michelle has his mother (that comes from a genuine place). If he says “sorry” to anyone it would be her. 

[libgirl2]

9 minutes ago, quarks said:

For federal appeals, rarely.

And in Josh's particular case, some of the stuff he's appealing - like the "the Homeland Security secretary wasn't the legal Homeland Security secretary!" is, to put it kindly, ridiculous. (I was going to add, "in my opinion," but this appears to be the nearly universal opinion of a number of attorneys and Judge Brooks, so I am sticking with "ridiculous.") So ridiculous that a federal appeals court is probably going to ignore it.

The only possibly maybe possible argument he might maybe possibly have is his argument that the original computer search was a violation of his Fourth and Fifth Amendment rights, and thus illegal, and since the search warrant for the car lot was based on evidence gathered from that search, the search warrant was also illegal and thus has to be thrown out, along with all the evidence gathered from that search - which pretty much is the evidence. However, Judge Brooks did take his time researching that argument and said yeah, no, which doesn't bode well for the appeal.

If Josh cared about his family at all, he would have accepted a plea bargain last year, saving all of them time, money and stress. 

And that is why I don't think he will ever change. There are people out there with sick urges like him, some of them truly want to change are perhaps even disgusted with it, but can't help what they are and can't seem to stop. 

[Tikichick]

49 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

How many of y'all think Josh will not reoffend after his stint in prison?

39 minutes ago, SusanM said:

Based on his downward spiral I hate to even think about what his next offense could be but I am pretty sure there will be something.

I literally feel sick thinking about it.

[Future Cat Lady]

Maybe I’m wrong, but it’s my understanding that prison doesn’t help sex offenders. If you have these urges, prison is not going to stop them. But I’m not a shrink and I don’t know what Josh’s issues are. If he goes to therapy while in prison, it might help him but it might also not. 

[libgirl2]

1 minute ago, Future Cat Lady said:

Maybe I’m wrong, but it’s my understanding that prison doesn’t help sex offenders. If you have these urges, prison is not going to stop them. But I’m not a shrink and I don’t know what Josh’s issues are. If he goes to therapy while in prison, it might help him but it might also not. 

Therapy might help him control these urges but I don't think they will ever go away. And I don't think he is going to do therapy anyway. 

[Rabbittron]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

How many of y'all think Josh will not reoffend after his stint in prison?

He will reoffend 5 minutes after he gets out of prison. 

[Tikichick]

17 minutes ago, Future Cat Lady said:

Maybe I’m wrong, but it’s my understanding that prison doesn’t help sex offenders. If you have these urges, prison is not going to stop them. But I’m not a shrink and I don’t know what Josh’s issues are. If he goes to therapy while in prison, it might help him but it might also not. 

Punishment doesn't do anything to cure the compulsions, but it is necessary for the protection of society.   Apparently some offenders can be helped, but it requires serious motivation on their part -- and apparently is dependent upon what predicates their drive in the first place. 

14 minutes ago, Rabbittron said:

He will reoffend 5 minutes after he gets out of prison. 

Unfortunately he will probably emerge a more highly skilled predator.  If that isn't terrifying I don't know what is.   Many of them over time become very disciplined about playing the long game when it comes to achieving their goals.   I literally felt my insides going to jelly earlier when I read upthread that one of the potential locations he may be incarcerated in is predominantly populated by sex offenders.   I cannot wrap my brain around the idea of dozens of them living in daily proximity,, exchanging tips.    

[Tuxcat]

7 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

 I cannot wrap my brain around the idea of dozens of them living in daily proximity,, exchanging tips.    

Which likely happened when Josh went away for the sex/porn addiction treatment before. Didnt he attend some "rehab center" for a long time. Am sure there was a ton of exchanging and tips on ways to evade covenant eyes.

[Future Cat Lady]

16 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Punishment doesn't do anything to cure the compulsions, but it is necessary for the protection of society.   Apparently some offenders can be helped, but it requires serious motivation on their part -- and apparently is dependent upon what predicates their drive in the first place. 

I was not saying that he should not be locked up but prison doesn't solve anything. Sex offenders are not in prison forever. They come back to society and often reoffend.

[BradandJanet]

Didn't Josh's rehab consist of painting a guy's barn or doing some kind of physical labor between prayer sessions? I don't think Josh was ever in any kind of professional  treatment program. 

Edited May 26, 2022 by BradandJanet

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, Future Cat Lady said:

I was not saying that he should not be locked up but prison doesn't solve anything. Sex offenders are not in prison forever. They come back to society and often reoffend.

I agree with you.   This is an area where we really need to carefully look at how we punish the offenders and how we address their ability to reoffend, because both need to happen for many reasons.

[Notabug]

5 minutes ago, BradandJanet said:

Didn't Josh's rehab consisted of painting a guy's barn or doing some kind of physical labor between prayer sessions? I don't think Josh was ever in any kind of professional  treatment program. 

After the Ashley Madison scandal, he was sent to some Christian program for sex addicts or something.  It was someplace in the midwest as I recall and he spent several months living there.  Lots of praying for Jesus to help them resist temptation; not sure there were any certified counselors there.  We referred to it as Jesus jail.

ETA: It was Reformer's Unanimous in Rockford, Illinois and he was supposedly treated for addiction to porn.

https://rockfordru.org/

Edited May 26, 2022 by Notabug

[libgirl2]

2 minutes ago, BradandJanet said:

Didn't Josh's rehab consisted of painting a guy's barn or doing some kind of physical labor between prayer sessions? I don't think Josh was ever in any kind of professional  treatment program. 

That was it, I believe we call it Jesus jail. 

[Salacious Kitty]

13 minutes ago, Notabug said:

After the Ashley Madison scandal, he was sent to some Christian program for sex addicts or something.  It was someplace in the midwest as I recall and he spent several months living there.  Lots of praying for Jesus to help them resist temptation; not sure there were any certified counselors there.  We referred to it as Jesus jail.

ETA: It was Reformer's Unanimous in Rockford, Illinois and he was supposedly treated for addiction to porn.

https://rockfordru.org/

There are no professional counselors at RU, at least there weren't at the time FF was there. 

[GeeGolly]

I think Josh possibly has antisocial personality disorder and as a rule personalities disorders don't respond to treatment as well as other mental health disorders. I certainly think Josh should take advantage of any treatment offered while he's in prison, but I wouldn't bet the farm he would see any improvement.

Even in youth, parents are rarely are the cause of youthful offenses like Josh's and treatment, again, isn't that effective, if effective at all. Its sad to say there is a very (thankfully) small percentage of the human population that are bad seeds. Their brains are biologically different. These folks usually end up as serial killers, sexual predators, con men and I suppose pedophiles could be included, though they are different.

That's not to say we should give up on these folks. Its just to say successful outcomes are few and far between.

Even Josh's lawyers knew this. They know he'll be looking at legal porn as soon as he's out and will move onto deviant porn as soon as he thinks he can get away with it.

[laurakaye]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

I can agree with this. But I think Josh was so smug he really thought he would be acquitted. 

That smugness was born and bred into him by his parents, who continually swept his "curiosity" under the rug and continued to parade him around as the Golden Fundie Prince from that famous tv family.  Not saying Josh couldn't have grown up to do deplorable things no matter who he was, but maybe if Jim Bob and Michelle had not looked the other way when he molested his own sisters, he'd have either gotten serious help or gotten caught and disciplined much earlier.  If FF wasn't even seriously punished for attacking members of his own family under his parents' roof, then it's no wonder he thought he was untouchable.