Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Churchhoney]

Just now, Dianaofthehunt said:

JB’s mouthiness to the judge makes me wonder how seldom these people encounter and interact with normal, non-fundie professionals. They just don’t know how to turn off the arrogance. 

Good point. This is part of why their "schooling" "system" enrages me so much. They're clearly bringing along yet another generation in exactly the same way. And if JB's moola doesn't sustain them all for life, it's going to be a pretty sight as the younger people who didn't seek out or invent this situation but are just following mom's and pop's commandments (alleged to be the commandments of Jesus) are forced to seek gainful employment outside the bubble. 

[Tabbygirl521]

1 hour ago, monkeypox said:

From the People article:

This is the first time I have ever heard that Josh penetrated one of his sisters. Maybe I missed the revelation somewhere? I knew that JB, MEEchelle, Jill, and Jessa all lied in the Megyn Kelly interview that Josh only "inappropriately touched sleeping sisters over their clothes, without waking them up" because I read the redacted police report years ago. Megyn Kelly agreed to help the cover-up for her own reasons. But I don't remember the penetration detail being reported before.

What a horror that the Duggar girls were forced to forgive Josh and lie about his assaults in order to protect him and their parents' fortune and reputations.

And never forget that Gothardism deems it all their fault anyway. God, I despise this cult. 

[lascuba]

5 minutes ago, Dianaofthehunt said:

JB’s mouthiness to the judge makes me wonder how seldom these people encounter and interact with normal, non-fundie professionals. They just don’t know how to turn off the arrogance. 

I'm still gobsmacked at his, "I'm not going to allow this." Motherfucker, WHO are YOU to allow anything in court?!

[galaxygirl76]

6 minutes ago, lascuba said:

I'm still gobsmacked at his, "I'm not going to allow this." Motherfucker, WHO are YOU to allow anything in court?!

I'm still enjoying what was basically a 'bitch please' response from the judge.

[Minivanessa]

1 hour ago, MargeGunderson said:

Oh, the shade here is epic! Bobbye  has some spunk!

Too bad she didn't have enough spunk several years ago to report Josh to the authorities. Oh no, she was all in with the "keep it in our church family" coverup. She can remember the date that Josh's special relationship with her own daughter ended (same date as they first learned of the molestations) but she did damn little to help or protect the little girls Josh molested. Sure she had him stay at their house for awhile but otherwise it seems she kept the secrets.

13 minutes ago, Dianaofthehunt said:

JB’s mouthiness to the judge makes me wonder how seldom these people encounter and interact with normal, non-fundie professionals. They just don’t know how to turn off the arrogance. 

 

4 minutes ago, lascuba said:

I'm still gobsmacked at his, "I'm not going to allow this." Motherfucker, WHO are YOU to allow anything in court?!

It's a little hard to tell from the article - but I think JB was mouthing off at the prosecutor who was questioning him, more than at the judge. Although a little mouthiness directed at the judge would go a long way to getting JB a contempt of court charge. Heh.

For instance, I think JB was calling the prosecutors "unprofessional," not the judge.

[hathorlive]

10 minutes ago, lascuba said:

I'm still gobsmacked at his, "I'm not going to allow this." Motherfucker, WHO are YOU to allow anything in court?!

He's god's chosen son.  And of course, to JB, the ultimate authority in life is god, not a judge.  And since JB speaks for god, god is a-okay with JB being a tool.  

These people are mindblowing.  But I am reveling in seeing someone tell JB to shut the fuck up.

[hathorlive]

9 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

For instance, I think JB was calling the prosecutors "unprofessional," not the judge.

Yeah, but you don't go into federal court and start shouting what you deem important and having value, and dictating what you will and wont discuss.  That in and of itself is disrespecting the court and the judge.

[Minivanessa]

4 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

Yeah, but you don't go into federal court and start shouting what you deem important and having value, and dictating what you will and wont discuss.  That in and of itself is disrespecting the court and the judge.

Oh, I agree 100%! (I've tried dozens of cases in state court and a couple in federal court although it was long ago.) Judges don't like - and few of them will tolerate - that kind of snotty behavior from witnesses no matter to whom it's directed.

I was just pointing out that JB didn't AFAIK actually call the judge "unprofessional," which IMO would have been a stretch even for him. 

[hathorlive]

5 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

Oh, I agree 100%! (I've tried dozens of cases in state court and a couple in federal court although it was long ago.) Judges don't like - and few of them will tolerate - that kind of snotty behavior from witnesses no matter to whom it's directed.

I was just pointing out that JB didn't AFAIK actually call the judge "unprofessional," which IMO would have been a stretch even for him. 

Good point!!!! 

[quarks]

6 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I actually hope the judge rules that the molestations are inadmissible. I think its unfair and likely very painful for the girls to have these details rehashed in public again. This is one of the many reasons victims don't tell - they lose control of their story. Another reason is survivors of sexual abuse are often looked at like folks who are forever broken. And here we are again, for the second time in 20 years hearing all the appalling details.

For sure we can blame the parents for mishandling the molestations, but that doesn't make it any easier for the girls. In fact it likely makes it harder.

I hope for their sakes, they avoided the day's news of the trial.

I'm 100% positive that this is a painful time for Jill, Jessa, Jinger, and Joy, and I hope they are getting the support they need. 

But:

1. In terms of controlling the narrative - that ship has sailed. Long sailed. It's why they are suing the city, county and In Touch.

2. They just - understandably - declined to even try to take control of their narrative by declining to testify at this trial. 

3. While I don't think they need to obsess over the news coverage, I hope they didn't avoid the news of the trial. At least, not completely. I think it's better for them to know what other people know. 

4. In terms of rehashing the story - that's already happening. Bobye Holt has already testified, and that testimony has gone public. If the judge rules this is admissible, she will be testifying within the next week - while people are still rehashing the story. So that's not going to change matters.

5. Meanwhile, I don't think we should forget that this isn't just about Jill, Jessa, Jinger and Joy.

It's also about William Mize and Randall Perry, the two men the defense is trying to claim could have downloaded the CSA material.

I don't know much about either man, and what I do know doesn't sound great. (Mize is accused of breaking into the car lot; Perry has allegedly been lying to pretty much everyone involved here. They both willingly associated with Josh Duggar.) 

But I don't think they deserve to have an accusation like this hanging over them, either.

Edited November 30, 2021 by quarks

[tnvolgrl]

Does anyone know if his sisters were called to testify?  I know Jinger is in California but the others are in Arkansas.  The only one I could see doing it is Jill.  She is the only one who has gotten help.  Joy's was the closest fit to what he is accused of doing now but I don't see Joy rocking the boat.

[quarks]

Just now, tnvolgrl said:

Does anyone know if his sisters were called to testify?  I know Jinger is in California but the others are in Arkansas.  The only one I could see doing it is Jill.  She is the only one who has gotten help.  Joy's was the closest fit to what he is accused of doing now but I don't see Joy rocking the boat.

As far as we know, Jill, Jessa, Jinger and Joy are not on the witness list, and have not been subpoenaed to testify.

Given that one of the legal issues here is whether or not Jim Bob and Bobye Holt's testimony can be admitted since they are only testifying to what Josh told them, and not what they actually witnessed, I think there's a very good chance that the prosecutors did reach out to Jill, Jessa, Jinger and Joy, but all four said - understandably! - they were unwilling to testify, and prosecutors decided to go with the non-victim testimony instead. 

[Ijustwantsomechips]

I will give my disclaimer that my degree is from the John J. (Jack) McCoy Law School, but doesn’t Bob-yae’s (ha!)presence invalidate the clergy privilege the defense is trying to claim with Holt? Like how lawyer client confidentiality goes out the window if a third party was present? 

[MMEButterfly]

13 hours ago, iwantcookies said:

https://people.com/tv/josh-duggar-family-friend-emotional-testimony-court-hearing/

Josh is a sick guy! JB is a liar. 

 

The classic chauvinist statement.

[BitterApple]

I'm just catching up on this thread, and wow. Josh began molesting his sisters at the age of 12?! So this went on far longer than the Duggars claimed. I also wonder if his crimes were way worse than what was detailed in the police report. Obviously the girls were coached to stick to a specific story. God only knows what happened in that house. 

 

[MMEButterfly]

12 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Yes, Bob-ye's testimony that Smuggar started the molestations at 12 is new information. It is noteworthy, given the ages of Jill and Jessa at the time. They correlate with the ages of girls in some of the material that Smuggar downloaded. He had a fetish, and it started very early.

Does anyone here have theories on why a twelve-year-old might molest his very young sisters? Could it be related to the parents hyper-flaunting of their sexuality? Just wondering about peoples' ideas.

[3 is enough]

9 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

I'm just catching up on this thread, and wow. Josh began molesting his sisters at the age of 12?! So this went on far longer than the Duggars claimed. I also wonder if his crimes were way worse than what was detailed in the police report. Obviously the girls were coached to stick to a specific story. God only knows what happened in that house. 

 

Which means the 4 sisters were 9, 8, 7 and 3.  How do parents not protect children this young?

 

[CandyCaneTree]

1 minute ago, 3 is enough said:

Which means the 4 sisters were 9, 8, 7 and 3.  How do parents not protect children this young?

 

Just remember that one family member has said that this happens to all families.  Fuck the victims the parents only care about protecting the golden first born dick. Fuck all of the non important kids. 

[galaxygirl76]

16 minutes ago, MMEButterfly said:

Does anyone here have theories on why a twelve-year-old might molest his very young sisters? Could it be related to the parents hyper-flaunting of their sexuality? Just wondering about peoples' ideas.

Boob had a pretty gross answer to that.

[libgirl2]

3 minutes ago, CandyCaneTree said:

Just remember that one family member has said that this happens to all families.  Fuck the victims the parents only care about protecting the golden first born dick. Fuck all of the non important kids. 

Because that is what she has been told to believe by her shit parents. 

[Nysha]

2 minutes ago, CandyCaneTree said:

Just remember that one family member has said that this happens to all families.  Fuck the victims the parents only care about protecting the golden first born dick. Fuck all of the non important kids. 

That was Jill who said that to Megyn Kelly. I'm guessing it was a line force-fed to the girls to make what Josh did seem naughty but normal.

JB & Michelle completely suck as parents. That those little girls were told it was their fault for tempting Josh makes me wonder what JB's attracted to.

[Cinnabon]

21 minutes ago, MMEButterfly said:

Does anyone here have theories on why a twelve-year-old might molest his very young sisters? Could it be related to the parents hyper-flaunting of their sexuality? Just wondering about peoples' ideas.

That and his complete isolation from other kids/girls his age. 

[sue450]

32 minutes ago, MMEButterfly said:

Does anyone here have theories on why a twelve-year-old might molest his very young sisters? Could it be related to the parents hyper-flaunting of their sexuality? Just wondering about peoples' ideas.

they follow  bill gothard and his IBLP...the men are taught that they cannot control their urges..anything of a sexual nature that happens it is always the woman and/or  girls fault..but they are never allowed to self pleasure to DEAL with these urges .It is a patriarchy, the men make the decisions  and are in control,  the kids are homeschooled.

(they got really bad homeschooling there are some good programs out there).They have an accountability partner so they are not  ever alone. you will notice  the girls always seemed emotionally and mentally much younger than their physical years (stunted).

  Bill gothard was sued by 15 women  (he always had the prettiest ones work in his office ....one said that she told him she had been sexually molested by her father when she was a child..HIS RESPONSE  ..he told her she should thank her father because it made her spiritually stronger (no joke he said that)

     this cult religion is a recipe for disaster especially those of a sexual nature. 

 

 

    

Edited November 30, 2021 by sue450

[Zella]

5 hours ago, monkeypox said:

From the People article:

This is the first time I have ever heard that Josh penetrated one of his sisters. Maybe I missed the revelation somewhere? I knew that JB, MEEchelle, Jill, and Jessa all lied in the Megyn Kelly interview that Josh only "inappropriately touched sleeping sisters over their clothes, without waking them up" because I read the redacted police report years ago. Megyn Kelly agreed to help the cover-up for her own reasons. But I don't remember the penetration detail being reported before.

What a horror that the Duggar girls were forced to forgive Josh and lie about his assaults in order to protect him and their parents' fortune and reputations.

That was in the original police report. The Duggars never talked about it in the interview, but it was part of the release 6 years ago.

Edit: Apparently not in the original police report, but it's been mentioned earlier in previous motions for this case. 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Zella

[Ohiopirate02]

10 minutes ago, CandyCaneTree said:

Just remember that one family member has said that this happens to all families.  Fuck the victims the parents only care about protecting the golden first born dick. Fuck all of the non important kids. 

In Gothard families and their ilk, a woman never has autonomy.  Her body is never her own--it belongs to her father first and then her husband, and those men can use and abuse it as they see fit.  Of course, JB cared more about protecting his golden child.  Josh had a future that was lightyears ahead of being a broodmare for Jesus.  

[Churchhoney]

32 minutes ago, 3 is enough said:

Which means the 4 sisters were 9, 8, 7 and 3.  How do parents not protect children this young?

 

That was Jana's job. After all, she was 10. Had about three years' practice as a sister mom under her belt. 

Forget this snitching stuff. Take care of your own issues, sprouts. 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Churchhoney

[Featherhat]

1 hour ago, MMEButterfly said:

Does anyone here have theories on why a twelve-year-old might molest his very young sisters? Could it be related to the parents hyper-flaunting of their sexuality? Just wondering about peoples' ideas.

Unfortunately I know of a case where a 13 year old started molesting and then raping two of his siblings. His parents aren't religious, conservative or hypersexual. The rest of the family is/was average, stable and loving with no obvious "this was the trigger" issues going on. This kid is clearly not well, mentally speaking but I'm not blaming his family or upbringing considering the rest of his siblings were well aware that what was happening was wrong. 

When his parents found out about the abuse they went straight to the police and social services within the day. It was the right thing to do but it was incredibly difficult for them. The local authorities actually worked really, really hard to get the abuser the help he clearly needed, as well as his victims. They worked with all the family (the abuser wasn't allowed in the room with the victims). 

This is where the Duggars went wrong (one of the many, many, many places). If they had actually done the right thing at the time then all the records would be sealed, their brand wouldn't be in tatters and more importantly a 12 year old who was clearly extremely sick to be doing what he was doing was denied actual professional help to change. *as well as* the victims being denied proper help. They could have avoided all this and actually helped all their kids. 

Interestingly enough the mother I mentioned above said that a police officer told her that they believed that it was more common than anyone knows. Not that it is normal or should be normalised, far from it, just that they believed it's a very, very under reported crime. 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Featherhat

[CandyCaneTree]

2 hours ago, lascuba said:

I'm still gobsmacked at his, "I'm not going to allow this." Motherfucker, WHO are YOU to allow anything in court?!

I am king Jim Blob and only what I want to say counts and I will decide on what the court is allowed to ask.

[libgirl2]

4 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

Unfortunately I know of a case where a 13 year old started molesting and then raping two of his siblings. His parents aren't religious, conservative or hypersexual. The rest of the family is average with no obvious "this was the trigger" issues going on. This kid is clearly not well, mentally speaking but I'm not blaming his family or upbringing. 

When his parents found out about the abuse they went straight to the police and social services within the day. It was the right thing to do but it was incredibly difficult for them. The local authorities actually worked really, really hard to get the abuser the help he clearly needed, as well as his victims. 

This is where the Duggars went wrong (one of the many, many, many places). If they had actually done the right thing at the time then all the records would be sealed, their brand wouldn't be in tatters and more importantly a 12 year old who was clearly extremely sick to be doing what he was doing was denied actual professional help to change. *as well as* the victims being denied proper help. They could have avoided all this and actually helped all their kids. 

Interestingly enough the mother I mentioned above said that a police officer told her that they believed that it was more common than anyone knows. Not that it is normal or should be normalised, far from it, just that they believed it's a very, very under reported crime. 

It has to be tough being a parent and finding out something like that. If JB and Michelle would have done the correct thing, I might actually feel sorry for them as parents to have something like this happen. But, they didn't and I don't. 

And that is the difference, it is not normal but it is under reported. 

[MMEButterfly]

1 hour ago, galaxygirl76 said:

Boob had a pretty gross answer to that.

What was it?

[dariafan]

Does their Bible not have any scripture about not lying ?????

[iwantcookies]

Too bad JB didn’t go to jail over contempt of court. I’d be delighted with that. Imagine king of Duggarville in jail? I guess that’s why he testified in the first place. 

 

First born golden penis is accurate and hilarious.

Edited November 30, 2021 by iwantcookies

[Trillium]

35 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

It has to be tough being a parent and finding out something like that. If JB and Michelle would have done the correct thing, I might actually feel sorry for them as parents to have something like this happen. But, they didn't and I don't. 

And that is the difference, it is not normal but it is under reported. 

Not only didn’t they report it or get their children help, but they paraded around in TV for years and made a lot of money with the façade they were such a wonderful loving family. They sold their way of living was superior. Michelle was hailed as Mother of the Year. The whole thing when Josh and Anna were courting and the whole Lego speech to the virginal “naïve” Joshua before is wedding, saving their first kiss until they were married was sold as the fundy ideal. They profited greatly from the deception. Doing nothing was horrible enough, but then to rugsweept and put the abuser on a pedestal is next level bullshit. 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Trillium

[libgirl2]

21 minutes ago, Trillium said:

Not only didn’t they report it or get their children help, but they paraded around in TV for years and made a lot of money with the façade they were such a wonderful loving family. They sold their way of living was superior. Michelle was hailed as Mother of the Year. The whole thing when Josh and Anna were courting and the whole Lego speech to the virginal “naïve” Joshua before is wedding, saving their first kiss until they were married was sold as the fundy ideal. They profited greatly from the deception. Doing nothing was horrible enough, but then to rugsweept and put the abuser on a pedestal is next level bullshit. 

Ugh! That was far from the truth. 

Good point that they tried to sell us on good, wholesome living and their lives were dirty. 

Edited November 30, 2021 by libgirl2
misspelling!

[Minivanessa]

Oh man. I'm listening to lawyer Emily live on YouTube and getting a clearer picture of how arrogant and obnoxious JB was in court, and that did include saying "I won't allow that," like he was in charge of the hearing. I think maybe the ONLY thing JB didn't do was call the judge "unprofessional." What a raving jerk!

[libgirl2]

Just now, Jeeves said:

Oh man. I'm listening to lawyer Emily live on YouTube and getting a clearer picture of how arrogant and obnoxious JB was in court, and that did include saying "I won't allow that," like he was in charge of the hearing. I think maybe the ONLY thing JB didn't do was call the judge "unprofessional." What a raving jerk!

He is an arrogant POS just like Smuggar. 

[Ijustwantsomechips]

26 minutes ago, Trillium said:

Not only didn’t they report it or get their children help, but they paraded around in TV for years and made a lot of money with the façade they were such a wonderful loving family. They sold their way of living was superior. Michelle was hailed as Mother of the Year. The whole thing when Josh and Anna were courting and the whole Lego speech to the virginal “naïve” Joshua before is wedding, saving their first kiss until they were married was sold as the fundy ideal. They profited greatly from the deception. Doing nothing was horrible enough, but then to rugsweept and put the abuser on a pedestal is next level bullshit. 

I’d love to see them go down for conspiracy to defraud the public, but that’s just my Jack McCoy law degree talking. 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Ijustwantsomechips

[SMama]

Looks like it’s going to be nearly impossible for JB to worm his way back to TLC. 

[monkeypox]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

That was in the original police report. The Duggars never talked about it in the interview, but it was part of the release 6 years ago.

I read the police report in 2015 and did not see the accusation of penetration of at least one of his sisters in it. The report did describe the accusation of fondling two girls who were awake. So we knew back then that JB, MEEEchelle, Jill, and Jessa were lying on camera that Josh only inappropriately touched girls over-their-clothes, he confessed immediately, and the girls remained asleep. 

I found an article in Salon from 2015 that also did not notice the accusation of penetration.

Quote

"This is why I never use softening, minimizing language," Field writes. "I say assault and rape and abuse. And, if it comes to light that Josh digitally penetrated his victims, I’m going to start saying Joshua Duggar is a rapist."

I'm surprised that this new detail, if it is indeed new, isn't getting more notice. The severity of Josh's alleged sexual assaults was even worse than what we knew before.

[libgirl2]

3 minutes ago, SMama said:

Looks like it’s going to be nearly impossible for JB to worm his way back to TLC. 

One can only hope! 

[Zella]

15 minutes ago, monkeypox said:

I read the police report in 2015 and did not see the accusation of penetration of at least one of his sisters in it. The report did describe the accusation of fondling two girls who were awake. So we knew back then that JB, MEEEchelle, Jill, and Jessa were lying on camera that Josh only inappropriately touched girls over-their-clothes, he confessed immediately, and the girls remained asleep. 

I found an article in Salon from 2015 that also did not notice the accusation of penetration.

Okay, but it's still been known before she testified. I've talked about with people and used it as an example of Josh escalating for years, and even this weekend over on the Duggar snark subreddit, people were discussing it before Bobye testified. 

Edited to add: It's hard to find exact results with the trial, but there's articles where it's mentioned in early November. 

https://cafemom.com/entertainment/josh-duggar-assaults-trial/the-evidence-the-prosecution-plans-to-introduce-will-also-joshs-own

I was mistaken about what exactly was in the police report, and it may be a newer revelation only unveiled in earlier motions from this trial. But it wasn't freshly revealed in the testimony yesterday. 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Zella

[SusanM]

2 hours ago, quarks said:

It's also about William Mize and Randall Perry, the two men the defense is trying to claim could have downloaded the CSA material.

This theme is used a lot in Agatha Christie novels - perhaps most famously in Ordeal By Innocence.  The idea that while it is always important to find out who committed the crime so they can be brought to justice, it is equally important to do this so that there is no doubt hanging over the heads of those who might have been suspected of that crime.  

While these men may not be innocent angels that doesn't mean they deserve to be suspected of downloading and viewing pictures of children being sexually abused!  Does Duggar have no shame?  Ok, stupid question.

Edited November 30, 2021 by SusannahM

[Rootbeer]

2 hours ago, Ijustwantsomechips said:

I will give my disclaimer that my degree is from the John J. (Jack) McCoy Law School, but doesn’t Bob-yae’s (ha!)presence invalidate the clergy privilege the defense is trying to claim with Holt? Like how lawyer client confidentiality goes out the window if a third party was present? 

There is no confidentiality for clergy when it comes to the abuse of children or other dependent individuals.  If Bobye is a minister, then she is also a mandated reporter, as is her husband.  That means, that anytime they receive information about harm to a child, they are legally obligated to report it.  Both Bobye and Jim could've been charged with failure to report CSA back before the statute of limitations ran out on Josh's past crimes.  

So, in a way, the defense, in claiming privilege now, are ignoring the fact that, if they are considered clergy, then they broke the law when they didn't report back when they first heard about it in 2003.    I think Josh' lawyers are claiming that they're not mandated reporters for the images of CSA charges that Josh now faces since they didn't counsel him about that; but they want to ignore the part where they should've stepped up years ago.  They want to have their cake and eat it too.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Rootbeer

[Tabbygirl521]

3 hours ago, hathorlive said:

Yeah, but you don't go into federal court and start shouting what you deem important and having value, and dictating what you will and wont discuss.  That in and of itself is disrespecting the court and the judge.

All I know is, I wish I’d been there. 

[galaxygirl76]

1 hour ago, MMEButterfly said:

What was it?

It was something along the lines of he was a teenage boy with lots of hormones that and he got curious.

 

eta, Anna's court dress from today looks like it was picked out by his lawyers.

Edited November 30, 2021 by galaxygirl76

[sheshark]

9 minutes ago, galaxygirl76 said:

 

eta, Anna's court dress from today looks like it was picked out by his lawyers.

But the zippers above the boobs...EYETRAPS!   Of course Josh is wearing the blue suit of innocence.  

 

[galaxygirl76]

Reddit is saying that Jill and Jed! are on the witness list.

[libgirl2]

1 minute ago, galaxygirl76 said:

Reddit is saying that Jill and Jed! are on the witness list.

Jed? That is interesting. 

[iwantcookies]

Anna is clutching his hand with both of hers. I am truly disgusted by her standing by Joshua. Protect your kids Anna the Dingus.

[GeeGolly]

6 minutes ago, sheshark said:

But the zippers above the boobs...EYETRAPS!   Of course Josh is wearing the blue suit of innocence.  

 

That looked like a Duggar son - hiding from the cameras.