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Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events


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Just now, GeeGolly said:

I don't know, I still think they might have gotten the light version. It was three years later and Josh was more saying "I have a past" than confessing to the Kellers, like he was to Mrs Holt.

That's very true. It just really startled me that they would admit that much to anyone outside the family, apparently willingly, much less to someone whose daughter they hoped he'd marry. 

Of course, now that I'm typing it, it dawns on me that maybe the Holt reaction did make them provide less information to the Kellers. But the Kellers seem to have such poor judgment about their kids' spouses in general, that it's really hard for me to assume that they're somehow innocent victims in this. They've continued to support and socialize with the Duggars. 

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1 minute ago, Zella said:

Honestly, I am not even sure they were lied to. I used to think that, but I was absolutely shocked how much information the Holts were given on what Josh had done, not only from JB and Michelle but also Josh himself. So, I don't rule out that the Kellers were told the exact same thing the Holts were and went into the whole thing with eyes wide open. 

Which, in my opinion, makes me ill.  Parents just shouldn't do that to their children.  How can Ma and Pa Keller sleep at night?  How is that in any way moral?  I thought they were "Bible experts" who tell us all how to believe.  I guess they missed the part about the mill stone around the neck for harming children.  Maybe that will be Jessa's next required verse for Spurge to recite.  They are such hypocrites.  

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Yes, Bob-ye's testimony that Smuggar started the molestations at 12 is new information. It is noteworthy, given the ages of Jill and Jessa at the time. They correlate with the ages of girls in some of the material that Smuggar downloaded. He had a fetish, and it started very early.

Edited by emmawoodhouse
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9 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I don't know, I still think they might have gotten the light version. It was three years later and Josh was more saying "I have a past" than confessing to the Kellers, like he was to Mrs Holt.

The fact that they called the Holts the very day Josh abused Joy makes me think they were very forthcoming with the Kellers. They might have stressed that it was all in the past and he'd learned and repented from his mistakes, but I think the Kellers got detailed descriptions of Josh's actions. Pa Keller was into prison ministry and the family was starstruck...they were the perfect marks to confess all to without risk of them backing away. 

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1 minute ago, lascuba said:

The fact that they called the Holts the very day Josh abused Joy makes me think they were very forthcoming with the Kellers. They might have stressed that it was all in the past and he'd learned and repented from his mistakes, but I think the Kellers got detailed descriptions of Josh's actions. Pa Keller was into prison ministry and the family was starstruck...they were the perfect marks to confess all to without risk of them backing away. 

But are they so filled with pride now that they can't come out to help their daughter and her children?  They can't admit their mistake?  That is pretty sad.

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2 minutes ago, lascuba said:

The fact that they called the Holts the very day Josh abused Joy makes me think they were very forthcoming with the Kellers. They might have stressed that it was all in the past and he'd learned and repented from his mistakes, but I think the Kellers got detailed descriptions of Josh's actions. Pa Keller was into prison ministry and the family was starstruck...they were the perfect marks to confess all to without risk of them backing away. 

Now *I* am believing that they told the Kellers. But what did the adult Kellers tell Anna? I think she got a very whitewashed version of events.

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7 minutes ago, lascuba said:

Is my memory faulty or is Bobye (forever pronounce like Kanye in my head) testifying that Josh started molesting his sisters at 12 years old brand new information? IIRC, they've always claimed he started at 14. So is 14 just when JB and Michelle found out about it and he had been molesting his sisters for TWO YEARS before anyone knew? 

Another thing I find striking is that the Holts not only continued their relationship with the Duggars but had Josh stay in their home for a while to counsel him after they were told about the abuse. And they still continued the friendship after JB/M told them they weren't interested in hearing any more details of Josh abusing their daughters. But it was Holt losing his campaign because of the "sin in the camp" that severed the relationship. 

These people are wild. 

Wait THAT Holt?  He knew what Josh did and still put him on his campaign?  Raises the question what KIND of porn was he watching during the campaign?  We assumed it was adult porn.  What if it wasn't? 

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2 minutes ago, lascuba said:

The fact that they called the Holts the very day Josh abused Joy makes me think they were very forthcoming with the Kellers. They might have stressed that it was all in the past and he'd learned and repented from his mistakes, but I think the Kellers got detailed descriptions of Josh's actions. Pa Keller was into prison ministry and the family was starstruck...they were the perfect marks to confess all to without risk of them backing away. 

I believe they called the Holts for help. Mrs Holt's testimony reads to me like JB & M were freaking out and were asking the Holts for advice and support. To me that's different than saying I erred in my ways during my youth.

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Personally I think they wanted to stick to the "Josh was 15" story because they didn't want it coming out that the sisters he molested were, in fact, truly children when it happened (Jill would have been 9 and she was the oldest). I think in their sick little world, having the girls be slightly older "justified" it because puberty, their bodies were changing, they tempted Josh, etc. But the girls being that young makes it harder for the Gothard world to make excuses.

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38 minutes ago, Zella said:

It's always struck me as quite ironic that, for all of their complains about the InTouch story, if the Duggars had actually reported this to DHS/the police and handled it properly when it happened, it probably never would have seen the light of day. 

Delicious, delicious irony! With a giant helping of hubris. 

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2 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Yes, that was Jill during the Megyn Kelly interview. She claimed that this activity happened in "2 out of 3 families." Her statistic came straight from Gothard. 

Well, sources* say 2 out of 3 families don’t attend church regularly, if ever. I therefore assume the Duggars will all quit attending church, since they clearly believe God is on board with anything that the majority of people do. 
 

* Okay, 62%, and that was the highest of the numbers Google gave me, but it’s still a majority. 

Edited by jennblevins
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I have no idea where I'm getting this from, but I'm sure Anna's version was that she (and I think her parents) found out at a semi-public event where Josh was giving his "testimony" and that they were impressed by his repentance. Let that one sink in for a minute. 

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18 minutes ago, satrunrose said:

I have no idea where I'm getting this from, but I'm sure Anna's version was that she (and I think her parents) found out at a semi-public event where Josh was giving his "testimony" and that they were impressed by his repentance. Let that one sink in for a minute. 

Well, he IS  a used car salesman.....

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1 hour ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Now *I* am believing that they told the Kellers. But what did the adult Kellers tell Anna? I think she got a very whitewashed version of events.

I read in duggarsnark there was a tHread by someone who knew   the duggars had been in a few brief scenes in the show had met anna several times hung with josh ..They said anna new nothing about sex  was not told was sex was un til her mother explained it the night before she got married.....so telling anna would have happened before the night before the wedding so how much understanding of the situation would she have had??

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1 hour ago, MargeGunderson said:

Delicious, delicious irony! With a giant helping of hubris. 

yes  josh was a minor if he had gone before a judge those records would have been sealed FOREVER ...Oh the IRONY

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4 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I’m not familiar with the material JD is charged with possessing, obtaining, etc. but are you saying that the children depicted were not real children?  Or that they were not abused?  Just confused.

I'm making side eyes toward the people who claim the children murdered at Sandy Hook were actors and no one died.  Meaning that the defense and their followers can allude to and make crazy assertions all day long, but these usually don't hold up in court.  I guess my sarcasm meter is set too low today.

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2 hours ago, quarks said:

(reads the second People article, about Bobye Holt's testimony, and this comment)

.....

.....

....yeah, I don't really have a response for this. 

He's not a male chauvinist.  His religion/cult normalizes male domination, so it's alright behavior in JB's eyes.  He was put on earth at the top of the food chain, and women are there to be abuse and order about.  But he's not a male chauvinist.  It's the same argument that religious leaders used to justify slavery back in the day.  "Well, we are smarter and better, so that's why we own people who aren't".   It's hypocrisy at it's finest.

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3 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

He's not a male chauvinist.  His religion/cult normalizes male domination, so it's alright behavior in JB's eyes.  He was put on earth at the top of the food chain, and women are there to be abuse and order about.  But he's not a male chauvinist.  It's the same argument that religious leaders used to justify slavery back in the day.  "Well, we are smarter and better, so that's why we own people who aren't".   It's hypocrisy at it's finest.

"I'm not sexist/racist/homophobic; I just recognize my rightful place in the world."--JimBoob

Edited by jcbrown
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6 minutes ago, jcbrown said:

"I'm not sexist/racist/homophobic; I just recognize my rightful place in the world."--JimBoob

But let's not forget that we shouldn't be focused on child molesters, we should be focused on Transgender people using bathrooms because they are molesters, oh wait.   I guess we only care about child molesters if they are A) trans and B) not our son

**I'm still learning about the right way to use Transgender. I know from this board that Transgendered is wrong.  Maybe Trans is too.  I'm still learning.

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4 hours ago, iwantcookies said:

From Bobye Holt's testimony it sounds less that Josh confessed voluntarily and more that whatever girl woke up and "snitched" started the confessions. 

4 hours ago, Zella said:

So, according to Bobye Holt's testimony in that latest People article, one of the girls said she woke up when Josh was touching her and hit him, and he called her a snitch. That was certainly never covered in that Megyn Kelly interview farce where they claimed the girls didn't even know they were being assaulted when asleep. And when Bobye tried to talk to his parents about it, they brushed her off. 

Bobye Holt didn't speak to the girls, she said Josh told her one of the girls woke up when he was touching her and hit him, then she snitched to their parents.

3 hours ago, quarks said:

I can't think of any approach that would have allowed him to squirm out untouched.

My sympathy is limited.

My sympathy is non-existent. I want JB to know every waking minute that people know he is scum for not protecting his daughters and lying to protect his pedophile son. I want this to decimate him financially, socially, and spiritually because I think his god is really his ego, power, and money and hopefully a lot of the people who thought he was godly will know the truth. 

3 hours ago, CalicoKitty said:

I wonder what the Kellers are really thinking right now?  I wonder if there is ANY possibility that they realize the gravity of the situation and might step in to help their daughter and grandchildren.  But maybe I am thinking too rationally and normally.

No, they're not going to step in b/c that would hint that they were wrong to pressure Anna to stay with Josh when the CSA against his sisters and the Ashley Madison adultery became public.

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Just now, Nysha said:

Bobye Holt didn't speak to the girls, she said Josh told her one of the girls woke up when he was touching her and hit him, then she snitched to their parents.

Right, I didn't intend for that sentence to read as if the girls talked to her--I meant this was what Josh had told her. 

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8 hours ago, quarks said:

Sources are also reporting that the judge hasn't ruled on this yet - which means that Bobye Holt and JB have no idea if they have to come back later this week or early next week to testify again.

Minor point here, given the seriousness of the charges, but I really do have to ask just how many people have to be inconvenienced/aggravated by or suffer because of Josh Duggar? I admittedly don't know anything about Bobye Holt, but I can't imagine that she wanted to spend the first week of December wondering if she's going to have to testify at this trial.

No worries, Jim Bob told the judge that he (JB) ism it going to allow it. The judge told him, “objections will be made but not by you.” And JB told him he was being unprofessional. (Per People mag)

What a self-important tool. 

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9 minutes ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

No worries, Jim Bob told the judge that he (JB) ism it going to allow it. The judge told him, “objections will be made but not by you.” And JB told him he was being unprofessional. (Per People mag)

What a self-important tool. 

Actually, Boob was referring to the police report (with InTouch emblazoned on it) as being unprofessional. He was addressing the feds. He was aghast that they dare use it, sourced from a tabloid.

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2 minutes ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

No worries, Jim Bob told the judge that he (JB) ism it going to allow it. The judge told him, “objections will be made but not by you.” And JB told him he was being unprofessional. (Per People mag)

What a self-important tool. 

To be entirely fair, JB didn't accuse the judge of being unprofessional. He accused the prosecution of being unprofessional when they brought him the copy of the police report that they apparently obtained from In Touch, and said that he wasn't going to allow it.

He's still a self-important tool though.

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3 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I don't know, I still think they might have gotten the light version. It was three years later and Josh was more saying "I have a past" than confessing to the Kellers, like he was to Mrs Holt.

I think this too. Seems likely when they saw that the truth apparently sent the Holts screaming into the night. 

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I actually hope the judge rules that the molestations are inadmissible. I think its unfair and likely very painful for the girls to have these details rehashed in public again. This is one of the many reasons victims don't tell - they lose control of their story. Another reason is survivors of sexual abuse are often looked at like folks who are forever broken. And here we are again, for the second time in 20 years hearing all the appalling details.

For sure we can blame the parents for mishandling the molestations, but that doesn't make it any easier for the girls. In fact it likely makes it harder.

I hope for their sakes, they avoided the day's news of the trial.

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I actually thought they acknowledged the abuse went on for years. I'm surprised this is new information.

I'm also surprised and yet not surprised that JB is an asshole. Boy, he thinks he is God's chosen man. I think he is lying to protect his own reputation. @Churchhoney I agree with you about JB and his daughters.

Bobye Holt also said on facebook something like we're fundies, but not fundies are like the Duggars. 🙄 Sure, Honey. This was on some public group recently.

I'd bet money Bobye's father was named Robert.

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41 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I actually hope the judge rules that the molestations are inadmissible. I think its unfair and likely very painful for the girls to have these details rehashed in public again. This is one of the many reasons victims don't tell - they lose control of their story. Another reason is survivors of sexual abuse are often looked at like folks who are forever broken. And here we are again, for the second time in 20 years hearing all the appalling details.

For sure we can blame the parents for mishandling the molestations, but that doesn't make it any easier for the girls. In fact it likely makes it harder.

I hope for their sakes, they avoided the day's news of the trial.

The prosecution included it to establish motive, after the defense said he had none. If they need it to establish their case, then I hope it's included. The victims never had control of the narrative so this isn't changing anything. Maybe if he's convicted, it will be small karmic justice.

In any case, I hope he's convicted and if this evidence is needed, then it better be included!

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6 hours ago, hathorlive said:

But let's not forget that we shouldn't be focused on child molesters, we should be focused on Transgender people using bathrooms because they are molesters, oh wait.   I guess we only care about child molesters if they are A) trans and B) not our son

**I'm still learning about the right way to use Transgender. I know from this board that Transgendered is wrong.  Maybe Trans is too.  I'm still learning.

Yes, those are the people they worry about! FFS!

And I'm learning too. 

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6 hours ago, Nysha said:

 

Bobye Holt didn't speak to the girls, she said Josh told her one of the girls woke up when he was touching her and hit him, then she snitched to their parents.

 

Wonder how much these events might lurk silently and maybe even unconsciously behind the bustup with and the shunning of Jill. (not that we know this was Jill, but we do know that she was -- allegedly -- the snitch at a later date, where another sister was the victim....but still....)

Edited by Churchhoney
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9 hours ago, CandyCaneTree said:

I wish that I could be a spectator at the trial because I think that Blob is going to try to turn the trial into a 3 ring circus.

Not gonna happen. The Feds are not going to put up with Boob's shenanigans.

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2 hours ago, Temperance said:

The prosecution included it to establish motive, after the defense said he had none. If they need it to establish their case, then I hope it's included. The victims never had control of the narrative so this isn't changing anything. Maybe if he's convicted, it will be small karmic justice.

In any case, I hope he's convicted and if this evidence is needed, then it better be included!

I believe they're trying to include it to establish a pattern. Rehashing the story may not change anything but it causes further harm.

But anyway, I'm just saying I would prefer Josh is convicted without it.

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6 hours ago, graefin said:

From the DuggarsSnark SubReddit:

 

post2.JPG

post.JPG

Be careful who you piss off, you may need them to testify for you later.   Of course, the Holts are only against the Duggars because they blame Joshie for Jim Holt not being elected to office.   Because just like JB, nothing can be Jim Holt's fault.   He too is perfect and chosen by the Right Jesus to lead people.   If he fails at the endeavour it is because of "sin in the camp" not because he's an asshat.

I hope they can use the fact this is not NEW behavior from Josh without having to go into the details of him molesting his stories.   I also hope Jill is spending a lot of quality time with her therapist right now.   The other girls are still dependent on JB so they are stuck just being run over repeatedly by a bus without getting the help they need because that would require JB to admit he screwed up.   Which he won't.

42 minutes ago, Westiepeach said:

Not gonna happen. The Feds are not going to put up with Boob's shenanigans.

Yep.    Head Idiot forgets who is in charge in the courtroom.   It ain't him.   he pulls stuff like he did at the pre-trial, it will not go well.   A judge will be more than happy to let him sit in a cell until he is willing to act with proper decorum in the courtroom.

Jury selection today.   

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From the People article:

Quote

And so in one evening conversation with Jim and Bobye, that is what Josh did, according to Bobye who testified that Josh shared more details about how he touched Jane Doe four in 2003. "When she was sitting on his lap he put his hand under her pantaloons and under her panties," said Bobye, who was crying and had to pause to gather herself, apologizing to the court.

Josh touched the girl outside and then inside her genitals, said Bobye, whose voice began to hitch.

This is the first time I have ever heard that Josh penetrated one of his sisters. Maybe I missed the revelation somewhere? I knew that JB, MEEchelle, Jill, and Jessa all lied in the Megyn Kelly interview that Josh only "inappropriately touched sleeping sisters over their clothes, without waking them up" because I read the redacted police report years ago. Megyn Kelly agreed to help the cover-up for her own reasons. But I don't remember the penetration detail being reported before.

What a horror that the Duggar girls were forced to forgive Josh and lie about his assaults in order to protect him and their parents' fortune and reputations.

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10 hours ago, satrunrose said:

I have no idea where I'm getting this from, but I'm sure Anna's version was that she (and I think her parents) found out at a semi-public event where Josh was giving his "testimony" and that they were impressed by his repentance. Let that one sink in for a minute. 

I remember Anna stating that JB, Michelle, and Josh had met with Anna and her parents to explain Josh's history. The assumption for a lot of people was that the Duggars were vague and dismissive about it, but I really think that they told them everything. They're seem incredibly forthcoming with people who have their same beliefs.

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