Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[cmr2014]

2 hours ago, Albanyguy said:

I wonder if Jim Bob and Michelle knew this and if it wasn't a factor in their decision to keep everything quiet and deal with Josh's crimes privately within the Fundie community. Of course, they would have done that anyway, but the possibility of losing their precious "right" to keep their children isolated and prevent them from learing about the outside world would have been a powerful motivation.

I think it's possible, but from everything I've read, they went to the "church elders," and I don't think it would have crossed their minds to go anywhere else. I believe that some of those "elders" had some legal knowledge (wasn't Jim Holt one of the elders?), and may have given them some advice on keeping clear of law enforcement.

[hathorlive]

1 hour ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Am I a bad person because I laughed out loud at this?

I was told its MASH humor.  When life gives you sex offenders, you deal with it however you can.  So, not at all.  

[hathorlive]

1 hour ago, emmawoodhouse said:

A leghumper had this novel solution for Anna should Smuggar go to prison. 

 

At some point, we have to wonder what separates the Gothardites from the FLDS. That's a move straight out of their play book.  And I'm shocked JB hasn't wondered if there's a sweet honey he could spread his seed with.  I need brain bleach now.

[coconspirator]

1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

The article, which was published in 2015, says this -- "Arkansas is one of two states that prohibits homeschooling in households that include registered sex offenders." *the other state was Pennsylvania) 

And of course they only note that the Duggs COULD have lost the ability to homeschool -- had he been declared a registered offender. 

The homeschool rules shift a lot and I don't know how often they update everything on their site. But the group that wrote the article try hard to keep a high standard of accuracy, so I'm sure they were correct about Arkansas law at the time, at least. ... And since a law like that was so rare and was probably enacted in response to some hideous event or other, it seems that it's probably a hard one to convince legislators to repeal, once you've got it on the books

As of 2020, HSLDA (Home School Legal Defense Association), said that if you;re in Arkansas and have a registered sex offender living in your home, you should "seek individualized guidance" about starting a homeschool......So it sounds as if something is still on the books, although maybe it has loopholes added or something. 

 

Looking ahead to when Josh gets out of prison, they'll get around this with the M kids by saying the homeschooling takes place at the main Duggar house so the kids aren't being homeschooled "at home."

Edited October 2, 2021 by coconspirator

[BigBingerBro]

Duggar Family Followers Spy 1 of Josh Duggar and Anna Duggar’s Kids in a Recent Instagram Post

[jennblevins]

3 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Am I a bad person because I laughed out loud at this?

I laughed out loud at the story about the SIM card. You have to get your laughs where you can take them. 

[madpsych78]

1 hour ago, BigBingerBro said:

Duggar Family Followers Spy 1 of Josh Duggar and Anna Duggar’s Kids in a Recent Instagram Post

What concerns me is the possibility that the M kids are all separated from each other in addition to being separated from Anna. Mackynzie, Mason, and Maryella's locations are unknown, Michael and Meredith are presumably with Duggars, and Marcus is presumably with Priscilla and David. I'm also wondering if the youngest two are with Anna and Josh at the Rebers with Mack taking on sister-mom duties.

Edited October 2, 2021 by madpsych78

[emmawoodhouse]

7 minutes ago, madpsych78 said:

What concerns me is the possibility that the M kids are all separated from each other in addition to being separated from Anna. Mackynzie, Mason, and Maryella's locations are unknown, Michael and Meredith are presumably with Duggars, and Marcus is presumably with Priscilla and David. I'm also wondering if the youngest two are with Anna and Josh at the Rebers with Mack taking on sister-mom duties.

The oldest three kids were all pictured at the Wallers' church's Vacation Bible School. Michael has been seen since, so he's home. I imagine Mack and Marcus also returned to AR. I agree that Mack is practically raising her siblings at this point. 

[Quilt Fairy]

4 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

A leghumper had this novel solution for Anna should Smuggar go to prison. 

 

OK, I laughed out loud at Suicide Clyde, but this?  I laughed so hard I couldn't breathe.  And ooh, yes, Handmaid's style.  Michelle has a red dress she can loan Anna.  

[crazy8s]

I think the M kids are all where they usually are most days - the TTH. Some of the kids visited the wallers and went to VBS quite a while back, (which maybe they do every year for all we know).

Up until JB and Meech went to the Bontrager homeschool thing and went on their road trip with the 6 kids, it was probably business as usually. the m kids were at the TTH where Hannie, Jenny and Jordyn watched them.  with Kynzie and Josie helping.

there surely are enough Duggar sisters and sister in-laws to watch them for the short time Anna was at court. Sure there are no recent pics of anna with the kids, but other than the walking out of court one, there aren't a bunch of pics of her without them either.

I mentioned a few weeks ago Michael was 10 now and would be mowing grass, detailing cars or something for some various JB enterprise any old time now. Almost on cue there he is working with James.

[Panopticon]

4 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Am I a bad person because I laughed out loud at this?

I wondered whether there was a polite way I could ask for a follow up on Suicide Clyde. How did he feel about the nickname? Was he relieved when he was assigned to different duties? Would he like to come talk about the Duggars with us?

[Gweilo]

19 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

I don't think so. He'd have to register as a sex offender, and such people can't be anywhere near children.

If Josh goes to prison for a decade, he'll almost certainly be a grandfather when he gets out. So they will have to rule on if he can see them, as well as his minor children!

[cmr2014]

3 hours ago, coconspirator said:

Looking ahead to when Josh gets out of prison, they'll get around this with the M kids by saying the homeschooling takes place at the main Duggar house so the kids aren't being homeschooled "at home."

I'm not sure they can. Someone posted on here a while back about Arkansas home schooling rules, and will know more than I do, but what I remember is that the stuff they've been doing recently with "teachers" like Laura isn't in line with the rules. They're not wildly out of compliance, and I don't think anyone has really been following up, so they've been able to pretty much do whatever they want.

I do think, though, that having a paroled sex-offender in the house will push them to the top of the list in terms of supervision. 

[madpsych78]

The thought of Josh as a grandfather is too much to handle. Not primarily because of his history with CSAM (although partly because of that), but mostly because he was freakin' 16 years old when the Duggars first aired on TV. It's the same type of feelings I get when I think of the fact that 9/11 was 20 years ago.

[crazy8s]

my other thought on the M kids is if Anna is at the Reber house full time, Hannah Reber might have decided "I'm out of here" and chose to go stay with the M kids at the warehouse.......

Edited October 3, 2021 by crazy8s
removed qouting myself

[hathorlive]

2 hours ago, Panopticon said:

I wondered whether there was a polite way I could ask for a follow up on Suicide Clyde. How did he feel about the nickname? Was he relieved when he was assigned to different duties? Would he like to come talk about the Duggars with us?

Clyde retired several years ago to a quiet retirement.  I think he was a bit confused after the third suspect killed himself because Clyde felt like he laid out the facts and asked the necessary questions. It was just strange to have three kill themselves in  close succession.  I don't think he took it personally.  He felt that you question a suspect and get to the truth.  And that innocent people don't kill themselves.  He had a point.  

Edited October 3, 2021 by hathorlive

[iwantcookies]

7 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

A leghumper had this novel solution for Anna should Smuggar go to prison. 

 

I can totally see that happening! 

[Quilt Fairy]

Can someone explain to me the difference between the judge's "drop dead" date for Josh to accept a plea deal, which I think is sometime in the middle of this month, and Josh's right to change his plea, which he can do up until the jury returns a verdict?  Is it just a matter of what terms the prosecution will offer him? 

[zoomama]

23 hours ago, Namaste said:

Will Josh be allowed to live with his minor children after he serves his prison sentence (if convicted)? Thank you. 

probably doesn't matter -- by the end if his 20 years per, all the kids would be adults. 

[JustRosie]

33 minutes ago, zoomama said:

probably doesn't matter -- by the end if his 20 years per, all the kids would be adults. 

I really hope you are correct and that he receives a 20 year sentence. However, I think a few legal experts on here indicated that he will likely receive a much shorter sentence. Perhaps I am misremembering?

[hathorlive]

On 10/2/2021 at 11:19 PM, Namaste said:

I really hope you are correct and that he receives a 20 year sentence. However, I think a few legal experts on here indicated that he will likely receive a much shorter sentence. Perhaps I am misremembering?

I swear I need to start putting this in verse:  HE IS NOT GETTING 20 YEARS.  Unless they take the sexual abuse of his sisters into consideration, he's not getting much more than 10 years.  This is why the prosecution offered him a 10 year plea deal.  Sorry, I swear I spend every day trying to temper down the vloggers who keep saying he's getting 20 to 30 years.

Edited October 4, 2021 by hathorlive
I can't f*%!ing spell

[JustRosie]

1 minute ago, hathorlive said:

I swear I need to start putting this in verse:  HE IS NOT GETTING 20 YEARS.  Unless they take the sexual abuse of his sisters into consider, he's not getting much more than 10 years.  This is why the prosecution offered him a 10 year plea deal.  Sorry, I swear I spend every day trying to tamper down the vloggers who keep saying he's getting 20 to 30 years.

Yes!  I thought this is what this thread had said. Which means some of his kids will still be minors when he gets out. 

[SMama]

4 hours ago, crazy8s said:

my other thought on the M kids is if Anna is at the Reber house full time, Hannah Reber might have decided "I'm out of here" and chose to go stay with the M kids at the warehouse.......

Mrs. Rever made it clear she didn’t feel comfortable with being alone with Volderjosh in the home and the same applied to her daughter. But her husband made a decision and she blindly supported that decision. Mrs. Rever will be where Mr. Rever tells her to be.

[Rootbeer]

On 10/1/2021 at 8:17 PM, BigBingerBro said:

Josh Duggar News: Court Documents Mention Josh Had a Lawyer Prior to Arrest

 

Josh Duggar: Did He Use Political Career to Hide Interest in Children?

I call BS on 'having a lawyer' prior to the raid.  Josh was running a business, anyone running any sort of business with the potential income as well as the various legalities involved in something like a car lot is going to have an attorney they use for contracts and various other stuff.  I ran my own business for 20 years and I had a lawyer I could call anytime for anything.  She didn't do criminal work, but she was an excellent resource for legal help of all sorts and I did indeed consult her over the years for referrals finding a defense attorney for a relative (not for CSA) who needed one.  If the feds had ever shown up with a warrant to search my business, she would've been my first call.  Travis Story has worked with the Duggar family for years and I expect he is the lawyer Josh wanted to call.  

Even today, not owning a business, I certainly have an attorney who I would contact if someone showed up with a warrant.  It is common sense in this day and age.

[BigBingerBro]

A Duggar Family Relative Speaks Out Against Josh Duggar: ‘What He Did Was Very Wrong’

[Nysha]

On 9/30/2021 at 9:58 AM, MargeGunderson said:

It’s also possible that if he did feel humiliation or harsh punishment, he’s made it part of his pathology. It’s not unheard of for abusers (and serial killers) to abuse their victims in ways similar to the abuse or punishment they themselves received. Not an excuse for Josh’s behavior, but possibly some insight into how it was shaped. 
 

Yes, 90% of the podcasts I listen to are true crime, and most of my Wikipedia searches involve serial killers. How did you guess?

Tell me you're into True Crime shows without telling me you're into True Crime shows. 😄

[farmgal4]

1 hour ago, BigBingerBro said:

A Duggar Family Relative Speaks Out Against Josh Duggar: ‘What He Did Was Very Wrong’

The article says that Josh thought there was a possibility that the judge would throw the case out completely.  Really?  He’s really that delusional and/or naïve??  As someone else said, Joshie Boy is going to have a rude awakening come trial time.  

[MargeGunderson]

So the source is JB’s cousin’s adopted son, which sounds even less in the know than cousin Amy.

[GeeGolly]

I didn't read the article, because I don't like to click when I'm unsure of where the link is sending me. Not that I don't trust the poster, its that I just don't like to give certain publications any clicks.

Is the source really JB's cousin’s adopted son?

@farmgal4, I think Josh is that naïve. I also think arrogance and desperation fall into the mix too. I'm guessing Josh is squirming. He's likely praying, crossing his fingers and toes, wishing on stars, has a rabbit's foot in his pocket and is being reborn daily. 

I wonder what his lawyers have been saying to him. Have they been honest with him, saying they're using the kitchen sink long shot approach, or have they stroked his arrogance and naivete and gave him false hope? And at this point are they laying the odds on the table between pleaing or going to trial, so Josh can make an educated choice? Or is Josh behaving so arrogantly they don't bother?

I imagine Josh is a frustrating client to have. I picture him spouting off all his "legal expertise" while the lawyers wait patiently and then saying, "Uh huh, so we are thinking …".

I hope Jeremy is Googling statements now, so he can pass them on to his siblings when Josh is found guilty. And if Amy has one ounce of empathy in her, she'll ignore her feud with JB, realizing this is difficult for her cousins and not mention a thing on SM.

[SMama]

Why does it matter that the cousin’s son is adopted. This is a big pet peeve. The source is the cousin’s son would suffice. SGirl is our daughter, not our adopted daughter. Who knows, maybe his father has talked to him about it. 

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, SMama said:

Why does it matter that the cousin’s son is adopted. This is a big pet peeve. The source is the cousin’s son would suffice. SGirl is our daughter, not our adopted daughter. Who knows, maybe his father has talked to him about it. 

Thank you! I was also adopted as an infant, and I was about to post this same comment. I am my parents’ daughter, period.

[Churchhoney]

On 10/2/2021 at 7:05 PM, cmr2014 said:

I'm not sure they can. Someone posted on here a while back about Arkansas home schooling rules, and will know more than I do, but what I remember is that the stuff they've been doing recently with "teachers" like Laura isn't in line with the rules. They're not wildly out of compliance, and I don't think anyone has really been following up, so they've been able to pretty much do whatever they want.

I do think, though, that having a paroled sex-offender in the house will push them to the top of the list in terms of supervision. 

As far as I understand it, the only issue they could have with the Arkansas homeschooling law is that Anna and Josh aren't "providing" the school themselves, but are allowing the kids' grandparents to do it. Arkansas has virtually no legal requirements for the details of home schooling, such as teacher qualifications, or curricula or testing or anything. So the issue isn't Laura or anybody else who might be acting as a teacher. 

The issue is the wording of how the school is officially set up. The at-issue provision is this one -- and it would apply to all the grandchildren if they ended up at the TTH SOTDRT

"DEFINITION OF A HOME SCHOOL                                                

"A “home school” is a school provided by parents or legal guardians for their own children."                                                

The law was set up as a "parents' rights" sort of thing -- giving parents the right to "provide" any damn thing they want for kids age 5 to 17 and be A-okay with state law.....I.e., who "teaches" in the school or whatever an adult may do in the school is deemed to be of no interest at all to the state because schooling tailored according to parents' wishes is accepted as an inalienable right in the state.

BUT -- because this provision was created as a "parents' rights" thing -- JB and M are not, by law, allowed to "provide" a school/schooling for children other than their own children and Tyler, of whom they're the legal guardians. 

The rest of the Duggarlings (and all other Arkansans) are, by Arkansas law, required to "provide" schools for their own kids and only their own kids -- because that's at the heart of the "parents' rights" arguments. 

Now I'm sure there's some way they can structure things -- some language in which they can describe the SOTDRT now that it takes in more than one generation -- to bring this perfectly into accord with state law. Because obviously the people who set up this law would be perfectly happy to have parents voluntarily turn over the provision of their kids' schooling to grandparents, as long as it's what the parents' proactively opt for. And obviously in this case, it is. 

So .... no biggie at all, really. 

And other than this "provide the homeschool for your own kids," there are pretty literally no rules at all for what you can do, except for the one they apparently still have on the books about not schooling in a home where there's a registered sex offender.....They won't have to cope with that for at least six years or so, though.....And by then that law may be off the books...😁

Edited October 4, 2021 by Churchhoney

[GeeGolly]

What about legit homeschoolers who are in a co-op? Is that not allowed in AR?

[Churchhoney]

30 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

What about legit homeschoolers who are in a co-op? Is that not allowed in AR?

They're legal because you just inform the state that you're providing the school and you shape the co-op with language that says that the co-op services are NOT a "homeschool" that somebody else provides per se but are a school service organization or business or whatever.

And then each parent provides a school for their own kids that makes use of some or all of those services {which could include a building where all classes take place, even ...or...whatever), just the way they make use of a computer program or a tutor or something.  

The Duggars could easily say that the TTH SOTDRT is the same type of arrangement. It's just a matter of everybody, including JB and M, getting the language right when they declare they're homeschooling. And they probably have to have statements that declare the TTH SOTDRT two different things -- the homeschool that they "provide" for their own kids and Tyler....And then also create a statement declaring it a different organization as well  -- like a service-offering co-op. And then the Duggarlings  can each "provide' a school for their own kids but, if they want, use in their schools only services, materials, tutors that are coming out of the TTH SOTDRT --  -- And, you know, JB and M  have lawyers who can write the documents.  

It really is not an actual complication but just a wording technicality. 

And you only have to do any documentation once. You just need to tell your local school district that you will homeschool the first year you start your homeschool, so they'll know not to include your kids on their lists. 

Edited October 4, 2021 by Churchhoney

[hathorlive]

2 hours ago, SMama said:

Why does it matter that the cousin’s son is adopted. This is a big pet peeve. The source is the cousin’s son would suffice. SGirl is our daughter, not our adopted daughter. Who knows, maybe his father has talked to him about it. 

Agreed.  I hate it when people refer to someone as adopted child.  It's insulting to parents who created their family.

I do think we're veering toward sources who are "your Father's Brother's Nephew's Cousin's Former Roommate" territory (with all due respect to Mel Brookes).  At least Amy is close to Jill and might shed insight into how Jill is coping.  

[Zella]

I agree that someone's child they adopted is just as much their child as any other member of the family, but has anyone ever heard of this branch of the family before? I'm not especially convinced they are in the know, not because of how they are related but simply because I don't ever remember them coming up before. 

I did actually go to the U of A with someone who claimed her kids were cousins to the Duggars. She announced this in a small group session, and the other person there and I both leaned forward for gossip before she haughtily informed us that she would never dare say anything about her kids' family. To this day, I have no clue if her ex-husband actually was related to them or if she was just pulling some shit. 🤷‍♀️

[ozziemom]

Since Jessa appears to be homeschooling Spurge at the mold house, do we know if Bin is still the “head teacher” at SOTDRT at TTH? Seems right now the younger Duggars are all on the road, I guess Boob is calling it a school field trip? So maybe the M kids are on an extended school break? Or maybe Anna gives the older kids a tablet for an hour like Alyssa Webster and calls it a school day. Who knows what schooling any of them are actually getting at this point.

[Zella]

As loathe as I am to give the Duggars any credit because I do think the general quality of their homeschooling is very poor, it wouldn't surprise me if the M kids are having a hard time concentrating. I doubt they know the full extent of what is going on, but they do know their dad isn't there anymore. And if speculation is true that Anna is spending most of her time with Josh, then mom might not be there much anymore either.

That's stressful and confusing either way and not terribly conducive to focusing on learning. And even the littler Duggars still at home and attending the SOTDRT also may be picking up on tension/stress in the family since they've also probably noticed Josh is no longer home, even if they again don't know everything. 

One of the nice things about homeschooling done right is the flexibility it gives you, and an extended field trip where you tour interesting sites around the country isn't without educational merit and might be a good distraction. Actually, as lackluster as I assume Duggar homeschooling usually is, I wouldn't be surprised if they get more out of a trip than they do a regular school day. And as for the M kids, I don't know that a temporary break would be a bad thing for them right now, especially if they are really stressed out and unfocused on schoolwork. 

Edited October 4, 2021 by Zella

[Ohiopirate02]

18 minutes ago, ozziemom said:

Since Jessa appears to be homeschooling Spurge at the mold house, do we know if Bin is still the “head teacher” at SOTDRT at TTH? Seems right now the younger Duggars are all on the road, I guess Boob is calling it a school field trip? So maybe the M kids are on an extended school break? Or maybe Anna gives the older kids a tablet for an hour like Alyssa Webster and calls it a school day. Who knows what schooling any of them are actually getting at this point.

Jessa and Bin are not very forthcoming when it relates to what Bin gets up to these days.  He may still be one of the SOTDRT teachers or he may have other employment.  We don't know.  

[libgirl2]

5 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Jessa and Bin are not very forthcoming when it relates to what Bin gets up to these days.  He may still be one of the SOTDRT teachers or he may have other employment.  We don't know.  

I thought he was pastoring. 

 

[Zella]

24 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I thought he was pastoring. 

 

They've said that, but I personally deeply question whether he actually has a full-time position. I think it is quite possible he is doing both part-time. 

Edited October 4, 2021 by Zella

[RedDelicious]

On 10/2/2021 at 4:37 PM, BigBingerBro said:

Duggar Family Followers Spy 1 of Josh Duggar and Anna Duggar’s Kids in a Recent Instagram Post

What the f*ck TLC?

Seriously what does a pickle-barrel pickle have to do with Dating and Courtship and why did they film Josh handing Anna a giant pickle to consume in front of him? I realize that is a rhetorical question.

And why are they wearing matching shirts??

ETA: interesting exchange at 1:57

Edited October 4, 2021 by RedDelicious

[RedDelicious]

I feel like the consumption of whole bananas and giant pickles was some sort of sick game for Josh.

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, libgirl2 said:

I thought he was pastoring. 

 

Response moved from Cruel Snotty Smug Pickle Jokes by a Mean-spirited Narcissist Hopefully Headed to Prison over to Diaper Mountain. 

I loathe these people. 

Edited October 4, 2021 by Churchhoney

[SusanM]

57 minutes ago, RedDelicious said:

I feel like the consumption of whole bananas and giant pickles was some sort of sick game for Josh.

Was Anna in the joke do you all think?  I can never tell with her whether she was naive and didn't understand he was being a jerk or if she knew exactly what he was doing and played along because, well, not sure really!

[Churchhoney]

28 minutes ago, SusannahM said:

Was Anna in the joke do you all think?  I can never tell with her whether she was naive and didn't understand he was being a jerk or if she knew exactly what he was doing and played along because, well, not sure really!

Yeah, I don't know either. Although I do find it hard to imagine a woman in their particular faith plus their particular cult ever admitting to understanding or participating in a sex joke, at least. 

 

Edited October 4, 2021 by Churchhoney

[madpsych78]

Eh, she was most likely naive back then. That was before she was a mother and probably before they were even married. 

If they tried that now, however, Anna maybe (not definitively) knows what that means. It depends on how sheltered fundies still are once they become adults and parents.

[Ohiopirate02]

12 minutes ago, madpsych78 said:

Eh, she was most likely naive back then. That was before she was a mother and probably before they were even married. 

If they tried that now, however, Anna maybe (not definitively) knows what that means. It depends on how sheltered fundies still are once they become adults and parents.

I can totally see Anna still being naïve about what Josh was doing even after being married for over a decade.  For her, sex is for procreation only and only includes one position.  It would never occur to Anna that tab A could go anywhere other than slot B.

[RedDelicious]

1 hour ago, SusannahM said:

Was Anna in the joke do you all think?  I can never tell with her whether she was naive and didn't understand he was being a jerk or if she knew exactly what he was doing and played along because, well, not sure really!

My guess is the cruel trick went right over her head. When the producer asked if she looked up how to kiss on Google or YouTube it was so far past her she didn't understand what he was talking about, and then she asked...they have it on there? Uncomfortable laughing from Josh (I shudder to think of the foreshadowing here).

[Nysha]

15 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I can totally see Anna still being naïve about what Josh was doing even after being married for over a decade.  For her, sex is for procreation only and only includes one position.  It would never occur to Anna that tab A could go anywhere other than slot B.

I think Anna's naiveite depends on Josh's sexual preferences. Remember, she's not allowed to tell him 'no'.