Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[GeeGolly]

9 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

That's the truly scary thing about him.  He really is incapable of thinking of other people's feelings.  I would love to know what diagnosis they will give him in prison.  I don't know about his religious beliefs.  People have a strange way of finding solace in god when they are up shit creek.  I'm sure he doesn't believe in anything above himself.  But I bet he goes primal and reverts to basics when that gavel sentences him.

Will Josh get treatment in prison? If I had to guess a diagnosis, I would guess antisocial personality disorder.

[Zella]

My guess is if Josh received any treatment in prison, the results would be negligible because he'd probably respond in the same way he seems to have Jesus jail and any other effort that's been used to corral him--he'll halfheartedly comply to avoid further issues but not participate in any meaningful way or sincerely try to get anything out of it. I don't think he wants help. He just doesn't want to be caught. 

Edited October 9, 2021 by Zella

[hathorlive]

8 minutes ago, Zella said:

My guess is if Josh received any treatment in prison, the results would be negligible because he'd probably respond in the same way he seems to have Jesus jail and any other effort that's been used to corral him--he'll halfheartedly comply to avoid further issues but not participate in any meaningful way or sincerely try to get anything out of it. I don't think he wants help. He just doesn't want to be caught. 

I think Zella (?) said it up stream, you can't force someone to fix things in therapy.  He's beyond fixing at this point.  Some people should be locked away from society because they can't compromise to fit inside of it.  Josh is a predator.  It's his nature to take advantage of people.  He has no moral compass.  All we can hope for is that he gets a long enough sentence to mitigate his influence on society.

[emmawoodhouse]

Smuggar is a textbook psychopath. He's too charming (remember all the emcee gigs he gets) to be a full-on sociopath. He's smarmy to a fault. I can't believe people still fall for it. But some people believe he's a devout Christian, so he's good at fooling people as he lives a life built on lies.

[mythoughtis]

40 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

He has no moral compass.

He’s a person that could have benefited from being allowed to go to an actual school ( private or public) and having to develop social skills. Being sent to the principals office and dealing with consequences. Learning about morals, ethics and making some actual decisions as a child. 
Some people just seem born with a high moral and ethical code,  others need the structure and failing and consequences in order to learn at least some  semblance of it, such as a conscience. 
It’s hard for people like Josh to develop  a moral compass when Mom and Dad don’t let you make any decisions, believe males are  inherently evil  and require accountability partners just to go in the next room. 
Note to the Duggar’s - maybe don't tell kids that males are inherently evil and have  no chance of being decent people 

Edited October 9, 2021 by mythoughtis

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Smuggar is a textbook psychopath. He's too charming (remember all the emcee gigs he gets) to be a full-on sociopath. He's smarmy to a fault. I can't believe people still fall for it. But some people believe he's a devout Christian, so he's good at fooling people as he lives a life built on lies.

Sociopath and psychopath aren't actual diagnoses. Anyone with those traits and meets the criteria, would be diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder. 

[emmawoodhouse]

Yeah, I realize that at least psychopath isn't an official diagnosis, more of a descriptor. Smuggar is actually a very social fellow. He primarily worked as a salesman and was a schmoozer at the FRC. Maybe he is actually antisocial, but if he is, he does an excellent job faking it. 

[GeeGolly]

5 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Yeah, I realize that at least psychopath isn't an official diagnosis, more of a descriptor. Smuggar is actually a very social fellow. He primarily worked as a salesman and was a schmoozer at the FRC. Maybe he is actually antisocial, but if he is, he does an excellent job faking it. 

Antisocial personality disorder, like borderline personality disorder have crappy and confusing names. APD doesn't mean one isn't social, at least not in the physical sense. It more means they don't truly connect socially on a deep and caring level. Someone with APD doesn't know to fake anything because they are always the last to know they have any issues, and even then they most likely won't believe it.

Like any diagnoses there's a spectrum to severity, but folks diagnosed with APD can be very dangerous. Its a scary diagnosis in my field because even in its mildest form, a therapist can get caught in the client's web. With that said, most folks with APD don't get therapy, or stay in therapy. Actually, many end up in and out of rehab and/or in and out of jail for much of their adult life.

[sue450]

!.  josh said years ago he did not want a lot of kids and you could tell from annas 3rd pregnancy on he was not interested.

2.. the irony  is that if the Duggars had turned josh in when he was 14  he would have been a minor gone before the judge and  being a minor the records would have been sealed forever...because they hid him out until he was an adult   the records were not sealed and  a reporter used FOIA to get the records ( and the  molestation of his sisters came out)

 

 

 3. Mrs Pearl said this about  child molesting husbands  you call the police he goes to jail, goes to trial found guilty serves time

,,THENNNNNN  you welcome him home with open arms because he is still your husband and the kids are hopefully now grown ( this totally ignores that the kids probably have their own kids now and  the kids (now parents) that were originally molested can carry life long   problems and seeing there molester father again is horrible).

 

just to add mr Pearl (mrs Pearls husband) wrote the book "how to train up a child" that had "blanket training"  we know michelle did blanket training and she helped them sell that book and they helped the duggars sell their book at the same time (several children died from the abuse from the Pearls   book)

 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2021 by sue450

[BigBingerBro]

Josh Duggar News: Duggar Family Members Starting to ‘Doubt’ Josh Is Innocent, Source Claims

[JocelynCavanaugh]

2 hours ago, BigBingerBro said:

Josh Duggar News: Duggar Family Members Starting to ‘Doubt’ Josh Is Innocent, Source Claims

According to a source that spoke with The Sun, Josh’s brothers and sisters are allegedly beginning to “have doubts” even while Jim Bob allegedly continues to work hard to prove Josh’s innocence. The source notes Jim Bob is “working hard behind the scenes to get him off,” adding, “he’s setting up meetings, paying lawyers and consultants, doing whatever he can to make sure his son doesn’t go to jail.”

Nothing in the reporting around this has actually indicated that JB believes Josh is “innocent”; he’s just tying to keep him from going to federal prison. Josh definitely deserves it but JB is probably motivated by pride/fear of public shame and maybe wanting to protect his horrid son. I suspect the older sisters never had much trouble believing Josh was capable of all kinds of sick and destructive behavior. 

[Future Cat Lady]

The truth is that we don't know what the Duggars really think about Josh and his arrest. All these articles are from gossip rags who do their reporting by visiting fan sites. They know nothing and I don't believe in any of their "sources".

Edited October 10, 2021 by Future Cat Lady

[GeeGolly]

16 minutes ago, Future Cat Lady said:

The truth is that we don.t know what the Duggars really think about Josh and his arrest. All these articles are from gossip rags who do their reporting by visiting fan sites. They know nothing and I don't believe in any of their "sources".

Isn't it funny how many of their articles reflect some of our most recent discussion? 🤔

[Zella]

15 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Isn't it funny how many of their articles reflect some of our most recent discussion? 🤔

Methinks the online snarker community in general is almost always the unnamed source. LOL

[Cinnabon]

2 hours ago, Future Cat Lady said:

The truth is that we don't know what the Duggars really think about Josh and his arrest. All these articles are from gossip rags who do their reporting by visiting fan sites. They know nothing and I don't believe in any of their "sources".

We don’t and they’re probably  all made up. That said, with so many siblings (and lots of small children among their families), I’m 💯 sure at least a few have doubts.

Edited October 10, 2021 by Cinnabon

[Rootbeer]

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

We don’t and they’re probably  all made up. That said, with so many siblings (and lots of small children among their families), I’m 💯 sure at least a few have doubts.

I'm sure they do, however, we also haven't seen a single one of the kids come out with a public statement expressing belief in Josh' innocence, even in the early days after the arrest.  I don't think they're 'just starting' to believe he's guilty, they always thought he was.

Even JB and M haven't tried to excuse Josh in their public statements, just BS like hoping the truth will be revealed and justice will be served, whatever the outcome.  I think they've asked for prayers for the family, too, but no expression of confidence that their firstborn won't go to the slammer.

[Future Cat Lady]

I think they know he did it. They know about his porn addiction. The real question is if they think it's a big deal or not. They do have the mindset that all sins are equal, that all porn is the same and all is forgiven if you believe in the right Jesus. 

So even if they know he did it, they may think it's not serious since he didn't actually abuse anyone.

[ginger90]

1 hour ago, Future Cat Lady said:

They do have the mindset that all sins are equal, that all porn is the same

Thankfully federal prosecutors don’t.

[hathorlive]

5 hours ago, ginger90 said:

Thankfully federal prosecutors don’t.

Then I pray that JB and Meech watch one of these videos and see if they think all sin is equal. I literally want to smack the shit out of both them. And if God thinks all sin is equal, then I don't have much use for him either.  CP is heinous.  And trust me, it doesn't have to be DD to turn your stomach.  The degradation of these poor souls is heart wrenching.  I will step off my soap box now.

[GeeGolly]

As "public figures" the only safe statement the Duggar siblings can make is a neutral one. Their objective is to create distance between themselves and Josh's charges. I can't say I blame them there.

As we get closer to the plea date, I'm leaning toward Josh going to trial. If he goes to trial and loses, he still leaves a gray area of possible innocence. If he pleas, even with a public excuse of why, that gray area kind of disappears.

(I think he's guilty - no gray area for me)

[Zella]

This article just popped up as a push notification from the local news. It's the first I've seen in a while as a push notification from them about Josh's case. 

On the surface, I don't see what is new, despite the note it had been updated today. I wonder if the reporter is a little muddled, and this means the fifth motion was finally denied? Because the first four motions being denied is not new news. I'm not sure how to check to see if the fifth motion was finally ruled on since it's a federal case.

https://www.4029tv.com/article/josh-duggar-motions-denied/37949612

[ginger90]

This article only deals with 4 motions and the reasons they were denied:

 

Josh Duggar's latest motions in child pornography case denied by court: Here's why

 

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/josh-duggar-apos-latest-motions-165158168.html

 

Another article:

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nwahomepage.com/northwest-arkansas-news/josh-duggars-trial-to-continue-motions-to-dismiss-evidence-denied/amp/

Edited October 13, 2021 by ginger90

[Quilt Fairy]

7 hours ago, Zella said:

Because the first four motions being denied is not new news. I'm not sure how to check to see if the fifth motion was finally ruled on since it's a federal case.

I believe what's new today is the court issuing the judge's rationale in denying the first 4 motions.  Apparently he has not yet ruled on the motion for a Franks hearing, which may push all the other dates out. 

Edited October 13, 2021 by Quilt Fairy
Rationale, not rational. Words matter.

[Zella]

Just now, Quilt Fairy said:

I believe what's new today is the court issuing the judge's rational in denying the first 4 motions.  Apparently he has not yet ruled on the motion for a Franks hearing, which may push all the other dates out. 

Ah okay thank you! You were considerably clearer than the reporter. :) 

[Churchhoney]

6 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Apparently he has not yet ruled on the motion for a Franks hearing, which may push all the other dates out. 

Mrs. Reber is desperately praying that it doesn't. 😁

[Quilt Fairy]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

Ah okay thank you! You were considerably clearer than the reporter. :) 

No thanks due to me.  I get all my updates from Reddit. 

[Westiepeach]

I absolutely hate Mr. Reber (and I really don't hate anyone) for allowing Sex Pest to live in their home along with his daughter and unwilling wife. She made it clear she did not want him, or does she feel safe. Ugh.

[quarks]

From Reddit, this is the pdf of the memorandum opinion, explaining the rulings:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fco2dto6a9xe546/MEMORANDUM OPINION AND ORDER 10-13-21.pdf?dl=0

It's all pretty straightforward. 

The judge apparently wasn't impressed at all with the hands and feet motion, called the Homeland Security motion "frivolous," and noted that the entire question about what federal agents did or didn't do with the cell phones could be handled in the trial under cross examination. The only motion the judge does seem to have taken seriously/carefully was the motion to suppress Josh's initial statements to federal agents.

It's probably not incidental that those statements are pretty damning. 

 

[Zella]

I'm skimming the judge's opinion, and I totally read the following two sentences in Ron Howard's narrator voice from Arrested Development:

"According to Agent Faulkner, Mr. Duggar responded that his wife was pregnant and that he might, indeed, need to leave to [sic] premises to check on her. Mr. Duggar did not leave the premises."

[dariafan]

He should have just played best fiends and word crush 

[BigBingerBro]

Judge Has Blunt Statement For Josh Duggar After Team Tries To Get Child Pornography Charges Dismissed

[Westiepeach]

Isn’t it getting close to “Possible Plea Day?” 

[SusanM]

56 minutes ago, Westiepeach said:

Isn’t it getting close to “Possible Plea Day?” 

I think I am not the only one who will be visiting this particular thread Very Regularly in the next few days!  I don't know what I want though - a plea or to see his sorry self on trial!

[Quilt Fairy]

1 hour ago, Westiepeach said:

Isn’t it getting close to “Possible Plea Day?” 

Monday, Oct 18th, IIRC. 

[Albanyguy]

37 minutes ago, SusannahM said:

a plea or to see his sorry self on trial!

I vote for "sorry self on trial".

[wait.what]

I have a couple of questions:

I know that an attorney works for their client and all communications between them are confidential. But, if a 3rd party is paying the huge attorney’s fees, can that 3rd party say: “I must be included in all communication and I will have input on all decisions or I will stop paying the fees”?

Next question:

Do you think the Duggar’s are gamblers? Will they tell Josh to take a plea? Although that will be admitting his guilt, it will protect all family secrets. (I’m sure there is more skeletons in that shared family close.)

OR

Will they tell Josh to go to trial? He “might” get lucky and be acquitted. Then they can talk about persecution, martyrdom, and how they persevered during this “season of life.” But that will reveal all of Josh’s ugly secrets and quite possibly family secrets as well. 
Will they take that chance?

 

another question:

remember Casey Anthony? When it got down to the wire, she and her attorney threw her father under the bus. 
Do you think Josh and his attorneys would do that? (Not exactly the same way, but you know…similar.) if you think he would, who does he choose to blame?

[quarks]

3 hours ago, wait.what said:

I have a couple of questions:

I know that an attorney works for their client and all communications between them are confidential. But, if a 3rd party is paying the huge attorney’s fees, can that 3rd party say: “I must be included in all communication and I will have input on all decisions or I will stop paying the fees”?

Next question:

Do you think the Duggar’s are gamblers? Will they tell Josh to take a plea? Although that will be admitting his guilt, it will protect all family secrets. (I’m sure there is more skeletons in that shared family close.)

OR

Will they tell Josh to go to trial? He “might” get lucky and be acquitted. Then they can talk about persecution, martyrdom, and how they persevered during this “season of life.” But that will reveal all of Josh’s ugly secrets and quite possibly family secrets as well. 
Will they take that chance?

 

another question:

remember Casey Anthony? When it got down to the wire, she and her attorney threw her father under the bus. 
Do you think Josh and his attorneys would do that? (Not exactly the same way, but you know…similar.) if you think he would, who does he choose to blame?

1. No.

I will add that although most people are assuming that JB is paying Josh's legal fees (including me several pages back in this topic), we don't actually know that - it's just an assumption. 

As others in this topic and over on Reddit have noted, Josh and Anna had several real estate holdings prior to the 2019 car lot raid. After that raid, they appear to have sold and moved some property around through various LLCs. It's at least possible that some of this money went to a retainer for the specialized attorneys, who according to court documents were hired prior to Josh's arrest.

It is true that the original money for these real estate holdings apparently came from JB, but the holdings/LLCs currently belong to Josh/Anna, and it's at least possible that JB has told them to use the assets that he already provided them before he contributes anything further. 

It's of course equally possible that JB is, as most people are assuming, footing the legal bills - but even if he is, he does not have the legal right to be included on client/attorney communications. If he is included on those communications, Josh could potentially lose attorney/client privileges.

(Attorneys on Reddit have discussed this at some length.)

2. I honestly don't think any family secrets will come out at trial, despite what people are hoping. With the exception of that Homeland Security motion, most of what we've seen so far from both sides has a very narrow focus - Josh, people at the car lot, and federal agents.

No one has really focused on The Life of the Duggar Family, apart from noting publicly available information - the Duggars have been on TV and Josh previously confessed to molesting his sisters. 

In terms of Josh's secrets - the indictment and the five motions so far have revealed a lot of them. Do I think we've heard all of them? No. But I also don't think that any more of them are going to be coming out at trial - the focus is going to be on this one specific crime/time period.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that at least some Duggars/Duggarlings are hoping that Josh takes a plea (hi Jeremy!).  Not so much to protect family secrets, but to limit the damage to the Duggar brand (again, hi, Jeremy!) by getting it out of the news cycle ASAP, and to limit the amount of money getting paid on his defense and what has got to be a horrifically stressful time for his kids (hi, everyone else!).

It's equally possible that at least some Duggars/Duggarlings are hoping he's found innocent, again because of the brand (hi, JB!) but also because, if he's found not guilty, he can presumably continue to do some sort of work and provide for his wife and seven minor children instead of throwing them on the mercy of relatives, as he is doing now.

3. Josh's attorneys already tried to throw three other people under the bus for this.

It failed spectacularly. 

Will they try again? I have no idea. 

Edited October 15, 2021 by quarks

[BigBingerBro]

Anna Duggar Is Reportedly Prepping For Josh Duggar to Spend Some Major Time Behind Bars With a Little Help From Jim Bob Duggar

[hathorlive]

I think the problem with Josh taking a plea deal is that he's never taken responsibility for anything in his life.  I don't know if he can wrap his mind around the idea that he can't manipulate the legal situation like he has tried to manipulate his family.  That might prevent him from listening, really listening to his lawyers. He's like the thief who is awfully sorry he got caught but not so terribly upset that he stole.  That said, I'm always shocked at the cases that DON'T plead.  It's always the cases you thought were so clear cut that no one in the right mind would go to trial, that go to trial.  I had a girl get off of attempted murder by rolling the dice.  And it worked out for her.  But I know, and Josh's attorneys know that once the jury sees those images and videos, it's over.  I've watched the jury as the images were shown in court and their faces go from anger to disgust in about 5 seconds. 

[GeeGolly]

I suppose it would also matter what kind of deal Josh is being offered. I think I read somewhere (maybe here), deals is cases like these don't tend to offer more than a reduction of a year or two. I can see rolling the dice then, even for a non-Duggar. Being a Duggar, Josh (& JB) will likely think he'll get a couple of fans and a couple of likeminded Christians on the jury. 

[Dianaofthehunt]

Wild speculation here:
What if the top, most famous, most successful defense attorney in Arkansas were a woman? Would the Duggar klan have hired her?
As I said wild speculation only, but do speculate!

Edited October 15, 2021 by Dianaofthehunt

[CandyCaneTree]

9 minutes ago, Dianaofthehunt said:

Wild speculation here:
What if the top, most famous, most successful defense attorney in Arkansas were a woman? Would the Duggar klan have hired her?
As I said wild speculation only, but do speculate!

No way in fucking hell would that happen. 

[Ohiopirate02]

13 minutes ago, Dianaofthehunt said:

Wild speculation here:
What if the top, most famous, most successful defense attorney in Arkansas were a woman? Would the Duggar klan have hired her?
As I said wild speculation only, but do speculate!

If the most cutthroat federal defense lawyer known for getting people acquitted on CSA cases in Arkansas and surrounding states was a polyamorous lesbian Satanist, the Duggars would gladly pay her fee.  The Duggars don't care about the personal life of their lawyers, they care about the results the lawyer can provide.

[hathorlive]

8 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

If the most cutthroat federal defense lawyer known for getting people acquitted on CSA cases in Arkansas and surrounding states was a polyamorous lesbian Satanist, the Duggars would gladly pay her fee.  The Duggars don't care about the personal life of their lawyers, they care about the results the lawyer can provide.

The Duggars only care about that stuff when you are trying to use a bathroom or buy alcohol, not if you are getting their pedo son out of legal jeopardy.

[Churchhoney]

The thing about the Josh-won't-plead-guilty thing that bothers me most (and my guess is that, very very very unfortunately, he won't) is that, to me, it shows that he truly has absolutely no concept of ethics/morality/decency at all and that he doesn't give a single crap about the one group of people he might possibly give a tiny crap about -- his seven children. 

Because. to my mind, what he owes those children is the truth and a life as free as possible from media stories about their father's trial on hideous charges -- whether they see those stories today or accidentally pull them up on Google 20 years from now. If he goes to trial, then he doesn't have an atom's worth of concern for his own children, his own little loinfruit, his own DNA. And that's a pretty lowest-common-denominator human concern that sometimes surfaces even in very scummy people.  But if Josh allows this to go to trial, in my opinion he has absolutely zero conception of what he owes those kids.

I know he didn't want so many. But if he could figure out how to secretly locate and download hard-to-access evil materials, he could have figured out how to get a vasectomy without telling anybody. 

That said, I'm still hoping he pleads guilty, for those children.

Because imagine their future lives -- "educated" at the SOTDRT, still indoctrinated with all manner of Gothard-y crap and the most fundie of fundiness, and living in a world where media stories about their "celebrity" father's scandalous trial on horrifying charges will be scattered here and there in other people's memories and all around the internet, like landmines and UXBs. Forever. 

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by Churchhoney

[Quilt Fairy]

7 hours ago, BigBingerBro said:

Anna Duggar Is Reportedly Prepping For Josh Duggar to Spend Some Major Time Behind Bars With a Little Help From Jim Bob Duggar

This article says - repeatedly - that Anna has 5 kids with one on the way. 

[emmawoodhouse]

2 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

This article says - repeatedly - that Anna has 5 kids with one on the way. 

They've edited it. 😁

[emmawoodhouse]

Okay, I kept on reading, and it appears to be copy from 2019. Smuggar is two years younger, and yes, they have two fewer children. There's an IG post about Mary's passing. Oops!

Edited October 15, 2021 by emmawoodhouse

[BigBingerBro]

An Update On Josh Duggar — This Man’s Legal Team Has Zero Shame

[Tabbygirl521]

On 10/8/2021 at 6:20 PM, Zella said:

My spidey senses match your spidey senses. I don't think he actually believes in anything the family teaches, but he lacks the fortitude needed to pipe up and say it. I'm sure he can spin things to where he sounds like a martyr for Christ when he needs to, for his parents' and wife's benefit, but I don't think he actually thinks it. I've said this on here before, but I don't think Josh processes shame, embarrassment, or humiliation like other people. I really doubt he gives a shit about how any of this has affected his family, but I don't think he has a problem playing them when needed. 

I think he’s another sociopathic would-be mega church leader. No interest in living a genuinely Christian life but rather would love to be someone like Joel Osteen or similar. 

Edited October 18, 2021 by Tabbygirl521