Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[threebluestars]

I hope this fucking family vanishes off my TV for good and takes all its ridiculous apologist fans with it.

[RedheadZombie]

According to the police report, the person who wrote the letter and placed it in the book, is a family friend, and described as "he".

[Ljohnson1987]

Wonder if J'Chelle will have to give her MOTY award back. She's certainly not it.

[dillpickles]

I have mixed feelings. If the adult Duggar daughters have truly moved on, forgiven and want to continue then I don't think it should be cancelled. I do think Josh should no longer be featured because the whole thing will be too uncomfortable for everyone.

I also hate to play Devil's Advocate for Boob and Michelle but they may have felt they were genuinely doing the right thing at the time by not formally pressing charges. That would have meant four underage girls having to repeat the details of their ordeal over and over. You couldn't punish Josh without doing damage to his sisters. Unfortunately it happens all the time in these types of cases.

I'd agree with you more if these girls weren't raised in a culture where exposing your knees means that a man is going to get an erection the size of texas. I can only hope there's no victim shaming, but really how could there not be? The woman has to cover her form, bbecause the man can't control himself. His sexuality becomes her responsibility

[Tardassian]

Interesting, this forum back in 2007 was talking about Josh molesting his sisters.

 

http://bitterjealousfatties.yuku.com/topic/964/Josh-Duggar-Molested-Sisters

[natyxg]

I have mixed feelings. If the adult Duggar daughters have truly moved on, forgiven and want to continue then I don't think it should be cancelled. I do think Josh should no longer be featured because the whole thing will be too uncomfortable for everyone.

 

The cancellation of the show would have little to do with any of this. It would have to do with TLC trying to save their image. Most people who hear about this will not think too much about it or think about the circumstances or whatever, it will just be that Josh molested his sisters and his parents covered it up. It will be about TLC having a show with a man who molested young girls as a teen and his family who covered it up. I doubt TLC would be willing to take that hit, unless there is some sort of HUGE expression of support from a LOT of people, enough to make them feel like the majority of people are on the Duggar's side, which is unlikely to happen, I think.

[GEML]

Like Bitter Apple, I also have mixed feelings. I'm not sure that the sisters and Josh hate each other or haven't genuinely forgiven him. I don't think they are uncomfortable around him. And I don't think his children are in any danger.

I think canceling the show will mean a childhood of loneliness for the youngest children. The only chance they have of getting the help they need is keeping them in the public eye, and they will simply be even more ignored.

I think Michelle and possibly Jill are at risk for depression, if they aren't already there.

Not saying to keep the show on the air. At this point, it's now a very different show. But cutting it off suddenly will create a strong ripple effect that has a lot more to do than seeing Jim Bob, Michelle and Josh finally get humiliated.

[Fuzzysox]

Wonder if J'Chelle will have to give her MOTY award back. She's certainly not it.

LOL I thought of it too but then she would have to associate with the other alledged child molester Doug Phillips.

[BitterApple]

I agree with the above comments. However my fear is that the victim shaming will be even worse if the show is cancelled because the girls will likely be blamed for costing the family their income. If they hadn't revealed the abuse, the letter would never have been written, the abuse wouldn't have been reported and the gravy train would have continued on. I know this kind of logic is fucked up but we're not talking about rational people here. I can see Michelle especially blaming the girls for the loss of her exalted super breeder status.

Edited May 21, 2015 by BitterApple

[doodlebug]

I don't think she was told the whole story by any stretch of the imagination.

Anna was a Gothard daughter, still a teen, pure as the driven snow.  I am sure she was told that Josh did something immodest after being tempted by girls who were flaunting themselves and lead him into sinning.  I don't think anyone would've told her specifically what happened, and, even if they had, she would've interpreted the information .through the Gothard lens which clearly states that men and boys are not responsible for their actions; at least, not while there are women and girls around to blame.  So, its no wonder she minimizes Josh' responsibility for the molestation of his sisters.  She is thinking that it will never happen again in her home because her daughters won't be Jezebels like their aunts (though I suspect she didn't know it was her sisters in law until recently).

[farmgal4]

According to the police report, the person who wrote the letter and placed it in the book, is a family friend, and described as "he".

Gil Bates?

[Cherrio]

Wonder if J'Chelle will have to give her MOTY award back. She's certainly not it.

They will add some letters and give it back to her.  MOFOOTY

Edited May 21, 2015 by Cherrio

[bybrandy]

I worry that the cancellation of the show will lead to even more victim blaming within the family of the victims.  If you hadn't been assaulted we would still be living the high life.   That idea worries me.   I'd much rather see the show where they acknowledge that they handeled this badly and get Josh and the girls therapy, or a spin off show where Anna has to make it on her own as a single mother of four.   Or whatever, but that said I don't really think this family should be profiting on covering up abuse.

[Growsonwalls]

You know, looking back, a lot of the Duggars' living arrangements make sense now, and I'm not defending J'Chelle and Jim Bob at all, but they obviously tried to apply band-aids on a gaping wound. For instance, having the large, gender-segregated communal living situation. Obviously no J'slave would be in a bedroom alone with Josh. Another is the strict segregation of household chores, Again, seemed to minimize the possibility that the J'slaves would get stuck in the laundry room with Josh. Even the way the girls naturally seemed to wear huge sweatshirts all the time makes sense. 

[GEML]

I can imagine it was easy to think it was all someone like Amy - older, "wilder" and from "a broken home" who even on the wedding special was trying to give Josh pointers about kissing!

Perhaps this explains how Amy got specials of her own. I never understood that, honestly.

[bluebonnet]

It's really heartbreaking that this happened to the children.  I have wanted the Duggars out of the media for years, but I certainly never wanted it at the expense of even more abuse to the children. 

 

I do hope TLC cancels the show.  More, I hope this helps create a conversation that discusses how problematic it is to reward and celebrate the fundamentalists families.  Fundamentalism is inherently abusive and should never be celebrated.  It would make me sick every time I saw another magazine cover, or the Duggar name in headlines acting as though they are great instead of he abusive parents they are.  The couple of episodes I watched made me throw up in my mouth.  I don't know how we could have allowed them to go on in the public eye as long as we did.  By "we", I mean the collective audience, even the passive ones who only caught headlines in the grocery store check out line. 

 

I wish I had done more.  I regret never having even filed a complaint with the Arkansas CPS.

[lottiedottie]

Emme, it was this past week's episode. Erica Hill did a group interview with JimBob, Michelle, Josh, Anna, Jessa, Jill and Ben. You could cut the air with a knife, the tension was so thick. They definitely knew the shit was about to hit the fan.

My heart is literally breaking for the Duggar daughters right now. Jill is a new mom and Jessa is pregnant, they don't need this kind of stress. Jana and Jinger are still stuck at home and now the entire world knows their secret. I can't imagine Josh can go back to Arkansas now.

This episode is scheduled to re-air tonight at 10pm.

[JoanArc]

 

I think canceling the show will mean a childhood of loneliness for the youngest children. The only chance they have of getting the help they need is keeping them in the public eye, and they will simply be even more ignored

The lost girls are still lost after all these years in the public eye. I don't think attention will matter one way or the other in saving them.

 

 

At this point, it's now a very different show.

I'd go and rewatch every episode, but I'm afraid of having a rage-induced stroke.

 

GEML, in another note - I have read a lot of stories about the wives of politicians that have to resign in disgrace. One was told her husband was gay, then three hours later was standing behind him supporting him on stage, beaming smiles. She said she felt like she was stuck in a tornado. They later divorced. Many of the stories read like that. What I'm asking is does it look like Anna might be stuck in the same Tornado? I know it's hard to tell, I just wanted someone with a political eye. I'm still seeing a divorce after the heat is off and reality sinks in.

[poopchute]

Pretty fucked up of Michelle and Jim Bob to have their family live their whole lives on tv knowing that this could come out at some point. Had they lived like normal people they wouldn't have to now deal with this in public. It's a pretty shitty thing to put your family through when it could have easily been avoided. The aftermath, I mean. Not the incidents themselves.

[autumnh]

I am amazed at anyone who defends this behavior or feels bad for them. How many sisters mean "some of his sisters" Sexual abuse in any for is unforgivable...and unless you go thorough it...you have no idea what is is like. It is INEXCUSABLE  in any way , shape or form. He should not be given a free pass....ever.

[Vaysh]

 

I don't care how old he was....sexual abuse is sexual abuse....his behavior should never be excused.

I don't think anyone is trying to make excuses for him; what he did was disgusting and wrong in every way and every time I see his fat smug face right now I want to kick him in the teeth, both for what he did to his sisters and for being a sanctimonious little hypocrite. But nothing happens in a vacuum and I think that his upbringing and his parents' twisted views on sexuality definitely played a part in what went on. They belong to a cult created by a man who is himself a sexual abuser (as is his brother). They have close ties to Vision Forum whose creator and leader also turned out to be a sexual abuser. Of course there are plenty of people who are sexual predators without belonging to a cult but the patriarchal movement seems like the perfect breeding ground for molesters and abusers of all kinds because despite all their big talk about accountability, there is no real sense of personal responsibility when it comes to men's sexual crimes against women and children.

 

Their ideology preaches an extreme suppression of sexuality, but they also appear to easily forgive and forget if the (male) perpetrator shows a sufficient level of public remorse and repentance, heartfelt or not. There is also strong pressure put on the victims to forgive and forget without any fuss or else they are being un-Christian and "bitter". Add a healthy dollop of victim blaming à la Gothard and what do you get? A boy who gets caught molesting his sisters, gets away with a public confession and a slap on the wrist, only to do it again and again. And why not? He learned right away that getting caught brought no real consequences aside from a little public humiliation, and his sexual urges were clearly stronger than his wish to avoid that. From Josh's statement it sounds like he stopped because he realised it would cause him harm in the long run (ruined reputation, eternal hellfire...), not because he had much thought for his victims.

 

Again, completely inexcusable actions on Josh's part put I put the main blame on Jim Bob and Michelle and their horrible life choices.

Edited May 21, 2015 by Vaysh

[RedheadZombie]

In the police report, I think the "person" who lived with Grandpa Garrett may have been a pet.  It directly followed the discussion of the dog, cats, and kittens.

[VioletNevermind]

If you want to be disgusted, have a quick look at the 19 Kids Facebook page. Their sycophants are urging people to support the Duggars no matter what. I voiced my views and was promptly attacked for my heresy. I fear for the children of many, many families tonight if this is considered acceptable. TLC is posting light, frothy pictures, studiously ignoring the kerfuffle . . . for now. Even as we speak, the show is airing on TV.

[Barbie]

The only way for TLC to salvage anything is to give the 4 oldest girls a show,  Jinger moves in with Jessa and Jana with Jill... show Jessa and Jill with

their babies and Jinger and Jana go to college but never show the rest of them... I'd watch that... 

[Ljohnson1987]

Anna, you're a moron if you don't leave Smuggar ASAP

[The Ascension]

The arrogance of these people to think it would never come out. I definitely believe Jana is one of the victims. The way it reads on the police report, it makes it seem that it's all sisters?

 

Also whatever you do, DON'T go on the 19 Kids & Counting FB page. I nearly had a heart attack reading the stuff. "Let those who are without sin cast the first stone", "why is the media feed on drama", etc type comments. 

[barbedwire]

Does anyone else not feel sorry for the Family Research Council?  They gave a guy with NO degree a job to be a media spokes person (probably cuz he already had a built-in following) and never did a background check?  Give the job to someone who actually took the time to go to college!

[EarlGreyTea]

Removed the show from my DVR. Was on the verge of doing it anyway but this really seals it. I think it's a good chance the show will be canceled, but others upthread have rightfully pointed out it may make the victims a target of resentment by other members of the family and I don't want that....ugh. I don't envy the TLC brass right now, having to make a decision.

 

He was so quick to shame the LGBTQ. Now he'll personally experience the pain of discrimination for the first time.

 

I read a lot of poignant, well-thought out posts in this thread but this one was one of my favorites. If there is ANY good that will come out of this, it's that Josh will finally be humbled and finally realize the true meaning of "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." He may come out of this with more tolerance and understanding, and will finally realize what real discrimination is. And wow, he really, really reinforces the stereotype that intolerant people who preach discrimination are the ones with the most skeletons in their own closets.

 

And wasn't he one of those who were fighting for that bill to ban transgendered people from using certain public restrooms? Part of the rationale given was that it might give child molestors easier access to children, or something.

 

I hope Josh is taking a long, long look in the mirror.

Edited May 21, 2015 by EarlGreyTea

[graefin]

Interesting, this forum back in 2007 was talking about Josh molesting his sisters.

http://bitterjealousfatties.yuku.com/topic/964/Josh-Duggar-Molested-Sisters

Fascinating. Apparently Jana wasn't molested and it was Jill who caught him. And Jim Bob and Michelle are lying liars (nothing new there, but nice to have confirmation), and Mary is a grifting famewhore like her son.

[Ljohnson1987]

Why should we feel sorry for an organization that thinks gays shouldn't have rights? I don't feel sorry that they hired someone with zero education to spread hate.

[NikSac]

Holy Moly!  I keep reading about  his sisters as some of the victims and that he admitted this. I am trying to find the article where he admits this. I keep seeing a lot of speculation.

 

The police report itself even specifies that some of them live with their parents Jim Bob and Michelle, so it's pretty clear that at least some of the victims were his sisters.

[Tardassian]

Fascinating. Apparently Jana wasn't molested and it was Jill who caught him. And Jim Bob and Michelle are lying liars (nothing new there, but nice to have confirmation), and Mary is a grifting famewhore like her son.

Yeah, it definitely makes calling Jill a snitch seem that much more awful.

[bluebonnet]

Does anyone else not feel sorry for the Family Research Council?  They gave a guy with NO degree a job to be a media spokes person (probably cuz he already had a built-in following) and never did a background check?  Give the job to someone who actually took the time to go to college!

I have to say that anything that makes the FRC, an organization devoted to bigotry, look worse than it already is is ok in my book.  

[leighdear]

I'm kinda wondering if John David was aware of what was going on, and his response to his older brother's "weakness".  

[ChicksDigScars]

I hadn't seen the Behind the Scenes episode that's on right now. While it's nice to appreciate the people that have filmed the Duggars for a decade (and they seem like great people), I can't watch Josh making his smug comments and not feel rage, I agree that cancellation will just enforce the "blame the victim" mentality with these people. And also put Scott, Courtney, Jim and the rest out of a job. I'm torn. I feel for Jana, Jill, Jessa and Jinger, and probably won't roll my eyes at Amy or Anna any more. Josh, however, makes me stabby. 

 

Personally, my preference would be a show without Josh, JB or MEE-chelle, the people most to blame for this situation, But, we know that will never happen. Josh being banished from the show? Maybe. JB and Michelle? Hah!  Never. 

 

How about Breaking Duggar, starring Jana. Joy and Jinger?  One Gigantic Kid and Recovering, featuring the Dillards? 

Edited May 22, 2015 by ChicksDigScars

[JoanArc]

Fascinating. Apparently Jana wasn't molested and it was Jill who caught him. And Jim Bob and Michelle are lying liars (nothing new there, but nice to have confirmation), and Mary is a grifting famewhore like her son.

That site posted  what we now know is true way back in '07. Too close not to be real.

 

 

They call their son "Precious Josh" and in their eyes he can do nothing wrong.

I believe this...

[VioletNevermind]

Does anyone else not feel sorry for the Family Research Council?  They gave a guy with NO degree a job to be a media spokes person (probably cuz he already had a built-in following) and never did a background check?  Give the job to someone who actually took the time to go to college!

I see your point, but a quick look at the FRC website erodes any sympathy I might have had for them. The sooner that hate group is shuttered, the better.

[BitterApple]

Four female Duggars are listed in the report as victims. If Jana wasn't abused and Jill wasn't abused that leaves Jinger, Jessa, Joy and who else? I absolutely think Jana was among the victims.

[bluebonnet]

Canceling the show isn't necessarily putting them out of a job and the kids into poverty.  These people have become incredibly wealthy over the years.  They were also able to support themselves before the show, I think I recall they have have several businesses.  They may not be flying around the world every other week, but that's hardly a deprivation.  

[Cherrio]

It's really heartbreaking that this happened to the children.  I have wanted the Duggars out of the media for years, but I certainly never wanted it at the expense of even more abuse to the children. 

 

I do hope TLC cancels the show.  More, I hope this helps create a conversation that discusses how problematic it is to reward and celebrate the fundamentalists families.  Fundamentalism is inherently abusive and should never be celebrated.  It would make me sick every time I saw another magazine cover, or the Duggar name in headlines acting as though they are great instead of he abusive parents they are.  The couple of episodes I watched made me throw up in my mouth.  I don't know how we could have allowed them to go on in the public eye as long as we did.  By "we", I mean the collective audience, even the passive ones who only caught headlines in the grocery store check out line. 

 

I wish I had done more.  I regret never having even filed a complaint with the Arkansas CPS.

Excellent post!      Keeping the show on the air is not going to help anyone as pointed out so well above.   JB and Michelle can sell their stupid house and get real jobs like the rest of us.  The lies, abuse and everything else is ONLY going to stop from within. Someone in that home has to step up.     I would rather see the little kids with their buddy leaders out of that house and in the real world.

The children will finally see what an insane life they had, the hate and nonsense they were brainwashed with.  They will see that you cannot appoint yourself a mid-wife or anything else without a real education. 

[MichaelaRae]

Hmmmm...the rerun of M4's "jender" reveal has been replaced with a Jill/Derek courtship episode tonight. Coincidence? I think NOT.

[lottiedottie]

Boy, I'd like to be a fly on the wall at the Duggar house. Can you imagine the things JB and Michelle are saying to their kids right about now? The spin they are probably putting on this thing? 

 

We should come up with some sort of underground railroad to free the Duggar children from their monster parents.

[NJRach]

Isn't Josh in trouble with the IRS for unpaid taxes? How is he going to pay that off now with 4 kids and no job? 

 

I think they are going to be living in Esther's used pop-up camper.

Edited May 22, 2015 by NJRach

[GEML]

I grew up hearing that Gary Hart and his wife would CERTAINLY divorce after he was caught with Donna Rice (I think it was Donna Rice) on the Monkey Business during the 1988 Dem Primary. He was the first politician to break my heart. I toughened up, and stayed pretty cynical until John Edwards came along. His wife might have divorced him if she hadn't been so sick, but she died married to him. After everything they have been through, the Clintons are still married.

But the Gores have divorced. And scores of other, less known couples who NEVER had a scandal.

The weird truth is, surviving a scandal (assuming you can survive it) will often actually make your marriage stronger.

I doubt Anna will divorce Josh. Not so much because of godly principles, but because he will need her in a way she's rarely been needed in their marriage and there is perhaps a part of her that enjoys that and is strengthened by it. She may actually come through this much stronger than if she leaves him, trying to raise four children on her own from her parents home in FL.

[lottiedottie]

Hmmmm...the rerun of M4's "jender" reveal has been replaced with a Jill/Derek courtship episode tonight. Coincidence? I think NOT.

Interesting...I wonder if this means the interview episode isn't going to be on, either. Damn, I wanted to see that one after reading everyone's comments about it. Is it online anywhere?

[Happyfatchick]

No more starbucks for MEEEchelle. The weird thing is that she's still so found of him.

But, then again, she does seem to hate Jana, who's also a possible victim.

I "get" Michelle's fondness for her son, I really do. In fact, I admire that a little. I used to tell my boys it didn't matter WHAT they did, I would always ALWAYS love them. I followed that up with "I won't always agree with what you do, and if you do something horrible, I will be disappointed. But I'll visit you in jail and I'll always love YOU."

SMALL "MOMMY" DISCLAIMER: I had no reason to suspect either of my boys would be anything but stellar and they've met and even exceeded my high expectations. (Yay!)

However, I'm also not surprised we get the vibe she's not crazy about Jana. Even if Jana wasn't the one who told, she appears to have had issues with it since then, true? Jana didn't "bounce back" and seems to have long lasting effects maybe. She didn't toe the line, so to speak. They needed her to be a big girl and not have problems with the coverup, and obviously she did. She just never got past it. So Michelle resents her. Because Jana didn't give it over to the Lord, obviously.

If my boys HAD done something along these lines, they would not have been welcome in my house with their sister ever again, or my grandchildren later. I think as Josh says, God has forgiven him. That is fantastic; I prefer to think of God as a loving One as I have many, many transgressions in my past and have had forgiveness for those. Still...none of my transgressions involved molesting a child younger than myself. If i had, or my children had admitted under duress that they'd engaged in that behavior, I would expect to live with the consequences forever. How STUPID would I be to leave them alone with their sister ever again, or to expect their sister to put it behind her and move along with life?

This is just MESSED.UP.

[xls]

I hadn't seen the Behind the Scenes episode that's on right now. While it's nice to appreciate the people that have filmed the Duggars for a decade (and they seem like great people), I can't watch Josh making his smug comments and not feel rage, I agree that cancellation will just enforce the "blame the victim" mentality with these people. And also put Scott, Courtney, Jim and the rest out of a job. I'm torn. I feel for Jana, Jill, Jessa and Jinger, and probably won't roll my eyes at Amy or Anna any more. Josh, however, makes me stabby. 

 

Personally, my preference would be a show without Josh, JB or MEE-chelle, the people most to blame for this situation, But, we know that will never happen. Josh being banished from the show? Maybe. JB and Michelle? Hah!  Never. 

 

How about Breaking Duggar, starring Jana and Jinger?  One Gigantic Kid and Recovering, featuring the Dillards? 

I'd feel bad for Jim who seems to be a truly decent guy. But Fk Scott, after his "Why wouldn't I?" put Josie soiling herself on TV. Nasty excuse for a professional man.

[MLE]

So it looks like while the marathon is still on, they've replaced the scheduled Josh and Anna centric episode (the most recent with the dumb flamingo party) with jill going to nepal.. Can't imagine that wasn't intentional.

[EarlGreyTea]

Because divorce is so discouraged in this circle (I wonder if they had a covenant marriage?), this whole situation has really made a great argument that all women should have some education and marketable skills, even if they don't intend to use it. If Anna ends up divorcing Smuggar after all is said and done, WHAT exactly can she do to support herself? I doubt the car lot will make much dough if Josh returns to that. She has some education, which is good. But she has no recent job history, probably few marketable skills, with another kid on the way that she wants to homeschool....WHAT would she do? This is truly frightening and makes an excellent argument for women to have some marketable skills in case the worst happens.

[dillpickles]

I "get" Michelle's fondness for her son, I really do. In fact, I admire that a little. I used to tell my boys it didn't matter WHAT they did, I would always ALWAYS love them. I followed that up with "I won't always agree with what you do, and if you do something horrible, I will be disappointed. But I'll visit you in jail and I'll always love YOU."

SMALL "MOMMY" DISCLAIMER: I had no reason to suspect either of my boys would be anything but stellar and they've met and even exceeded my high expectations. (Yay!)

However, I'm also not surprised we get the vibe she's not crazy about Jana. Even if Jana wasn't the one who told, she appears to have had issues with it since then, true? Jana didn't "bounce back" and seems to have long lasting effects maybe. She didn't toe the line, so to speak. They needed her to be a big girl and not have problems with the coverup, and obviously she did. She just never got past it. So Michelle resents her. Because Jana didn't give it over to the Lord, obviously.

If my boys HAD done something along these lines, they would not have been welcome in my house with their sister ever again, or my grandchildren later. I think as Josh says, God has forgiven him. That is fantastic; I prefer to think of God as a loving One as I have many, many transgressions in my past and have had forgiveness for those. Still...none of my transgressions involved molesting a child younger than myself. If i had, or my children had admitted under duress that they'd engaged in that behavior, I would expect to live with the consequences forever. How STUPID would I be to leave them alone with their sister ever again, or to expect their sister to put it behind her and move along with life?

This is just MESSED.UP.

Yeah I'm not a momma, so i can't imagjne even being able to side hug a son that allegedly did that to my little girl. But i understand where you're coming from, it is all just a mess here. I feel bad for ALMOST everyone.