Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Lemur]

To get some actual trainin', and a license.

 

Ehhh.  That's optional.  I mean, it's just the evil Big Government trying to keep the hardworking entrepreneur down. 

[Dawn16]

Josh doesn't have the training to be anyone's campaign manager. Even at the state rep or senator level. Plus, those are jobs taken by people who are willing to make very little money and work 24/7 for the chance to build their own resumes. Josh is simultaneously too old (four children) or too inexperienced to do it.

He could become an aid to someone in Little Rock, however. That's a pretty decent job - not a ton of money but likely decent benefits. It's behind the scenes and would give him some privacy while still keeping him in the game.

But I think from here on out his life is decided by his father. He's brought down the family twice. Jim Bob won't risk him being outside the "umbrella of his protection" again.

From what I've seen, campaign managers at the state level can receive on the job training, but then they're basically working 24/7 for room and board (in someone's spare room) and no guarantee of future employment.  There are plenty of behind the scenes political type jobs, but I think Josh is done in politics.   I imagine he will probably end up working in a business like real estate or construction, either for Jim Bob or for someone else connected to the Duggars, while continuing to find ways to milk the family name for extra money.  Maybe some type of government office job if Jim Bob has the connections and is willing to let him that far out of the umbrella. 

Edited June 12, 2015 by Dawn16

[CherryMalotte]

You never know...Josh's next job may include asking us if we'd like to have the combo or just the sandwich.

[brandyelf]

You never know...Josh's next job may include asking us if we'd like to have the combo or just the sandwich.

Or maybe JB can start a pizza place. They can call it "Pie and Piety"

[Barbie]

Or maybe JB can start a pizza place. They can call it "Pie and Piety"

Josh does NOT need all the free pizza he can eat... 

[Wellfleet]

Bcca I read on Razing Ruth that a man remains under his father's authority after marriage. The blogger said she has witnessed a sixty year old still under his father's uthority.

 

Good grief. How unutterably pathetic. That all these "rules" - for courtship, marriage & family life - were concocted by someone who was never married or raised children, who by his own admission never even kissed a woman - is absolutely, stupifyingly incredible!

[Ms Lark]

Had to get away from this topic for a while for my own sanity! Glad to hear Josh & Co. has left DC. We don't want him here, got enough problems. Looks like they realized they better clear the hell out before Pride Day this weekend. Gotta keep them kids away from them LGBT molesters, ya know.

[Fuzzysox]

Good grief. How unutterably pathetic. That all these "rules" - for courtship, marriage & family life - were concocted by someone who was never married or raised children, who by his own admission never even kissed a woman - is absolutely, stupifyingly incredible!

And in my eyes so are the wack-a-doos that follow him like he is some God.

*shudder* He probably laughed everytime he went to the bank getting people to buy his ATI crappy materials.

[RazzleberryPie]

Well, under Gothard, men remain under their father's authority for life. Women remain until marriage when it is transferred to their husband. So Josh will work wherever JimBob tells him. JimBob seems to want authority over his sons-in-law and their wives. I wonder how strictly they follow Gothard.

So what happens if your SILs aren't Gothardy? Do you insist they come under your umbrella? Do you throw you daughters to the wolves/non-Gothards? Do you only choose SILs who are either like Derrick - nice guy, Beta male, without a living biological father's umbrella and with a stepfather who is cautious of the Duggars but allowing his adult stepson to make his own choices, so ripe for the pickin' to steamroll into your cult, OR an unseasoned, aggressive, Alpha male SIL who will love the power trip of having all that authority - Ben?

 

While we mention Pearl's book for blanket training, it's worth mentioning that he learned it from the Amish. It's used to teach children first and foremost to be able to remain quiet during long church services. And if you discourage curiosity from a very young age, they will be less curious about leaving the bigger blanket - that of the community for the outside world.

It's easy to see why Fundy subcultures like the Duggars found this appealing. But just as not all Amish used this, not all Fundys did. Not even all of Gothards followers did.

Do. Not. Get. Me. Started. on how batshit crazy a huge chunk of the Amish really are. I personally know of families that make this whole Josh Molester story sound like a walk in the park. That's another group that has equal amounts of kind, sincere people as they do greedy, controlling, mentally ill zealots. 

[Tunia]

Paper or plastic?

[Oldernowiser]

I keep thinking about blanket training...I don't have human children but I'm a dog lover and always have had at least two. One really useful skill I've taught several of my puppies is mat training, where you train them to go to a mat and lie down until released. You teach that by rewarding the dog over and over for staying on the mat. It would never cross my mind EVER to mat train them by hurting them if they strayed from the mat...and these are DOGS.

Seriously...who do you have to be to do that to a baby?????????

[GEML]

I actually think that Josh himself probably has far more political contacts in AR than JB. And I think in a year or two one of them may quietly hire him to work behind the scenes. But (and it's a big but) I also still think that Jim Bob now holds all the cards. I wouldn't be surprised if he punishes Josh severely for harming the family income - even if the show comes back, I can't see it being what it was. Josh might wish for a piece of pipe compared to a life subservient to his parents.

[Missy Vixen]

Not really familiar with the Village Church, so I have no idea how extreme or mainstream they are compared to the Duggars. Probably less extreme, though. 

 

ETA: After the scandal hit the media, the church ended up apologizing to the wife and acknowledging that she had biblical grounds for divorce/annulment.

The Village Church (and their buddies, Seattle's Mars Hill Church) are even scarier than the Duggars and their cult, in my opinion. They are hyper-masculine patriarchies that demand one signs a contract to belong to the church and "church discipline" is random and draconian, for starters. They teach something called "compartmentalism", which is a fancy term for "women are second class citizens and will do what men want at all times".  VC and MH dress their Calvinism on steroids up in "We play rock music during our services, the pastor wears jeans in the pulpit, and we let people smoke cigarettes outside of the sanctuary. We are really hip". Seriously, they make Ben Seewald look somewhat reasonable and sane. If you'd like to know more about them and their beliefs, please do a Google search on "Acts 29" for starters. The ONLY REASON they cut Mark Driscoll loose (my opinion, of course) is because he was about to bring down the entire moneymaking machine. One of the clauses in the member contract is that you must share proof of your yearly income with church leadership so they can calculate your tithe.

 

The ONLY REASON Village Church relented on the woman in question is because she was smart enough to tell her story to the media. The abuses of the Acts 29 group to their membership are all over the Web and make some pretty nightmarish reading.

 

And I think Josh may already be working behind the scenes with the org that just allegedly fired him. They want that entree into the Gothardite voting bloc. Badly. IMHO, of course.

[Missy Vixen]

I actually think that Josh himself probably has far more political contacts in AR than JB. And I think in a year or two one of them may quietly hire him to work behind the scenes. But (and it's a big but) I also still think that Jim Bob now holds all the cards. I wouldn't be surprised if he punishes Josh severely for harming the family income - even if the show comes back, I can't see it being what it was. Josh might wish for a piece of pipe compared to a life subservient to his parents.

I am wondering if a double-wide or manufactured home is being hurriedly finished on the Duggars' property for Smuggar. The foreclosure they bought is not safe for Anna and the kids to live in because the address is out on the Web and has been for a while. The only hope of safety (in my opinion) is being behind a gate with security, and I'm sure Jim Boob's already taken care of that.

 

Jim Boob is holding all the cards at the moment but I wonder how much dirt Josh may have on HIM. IMHO, of course.

[CofCinci]

To get some actual trainin', and a license.

Josh, or any of his brothers, will always do construction without a license.

[anony mouse]

I keep thinking about blanket training...I don't have human children but I'm a dog lover and always have had at least two. One really useful skill I've taught several of my puppies is mat training, where you train them to go to a mat and lie down until released. You teach that by rewarding the dog over and over for staying on the mat. It would never cross my mind EVER to mat train them by hurting them if they strayed from the mat...and these are DOGS.

Seriously...who do you have to be to do that to a baby?????????

I read some Mormon mommy blogs and that's how I knew of blanket training for a long time. Special toys to play with if you sit quietly, only get them when training or at church, and a treat after for good behavior. Start at a year, and keep the minutes corresponding to age (1 for 1, 3 for 2, etc.) with a slow increase. I was horrified when I discovered the Pearls' interpretation.

[Sew Sumi]

Paper or plastic?

Do you want fries with that?

[galax-arena]

They teach something called "compartmentalism", which is a fancy term for "women are second class citizens and will do what men want at all times".

Minor thing, I believe it's "complementarianism." Fancy word that these people started taking up in lieu of "patriarchy" because the latter came with too much baggage. They think they're being slick, lol. 

Edited June 13, 2015 by galax-arena

[Sew Sumi]

The Village Church (and their buddies, Seattle's Mars Hill Church) are even scarier than the Duggars and their cult, in my opinion. They are hyper-masculine patriarchies that demand one signs a contract to belong to the church and "church discipline" is random and draconian, for starters. They teach something called "compartmentalism", which is a fancy term for "women are second class citizens and will do what men want at all times".  VC and MH dress their Calvinism on steroids up in "We play rock music during our services, the pastor wears jeans in the pulpit, and we let people smoke cigarettes outside of the sanctuary. We are really hip". Seriously, they make Ben Seewald look somewhat reasonable and sane. If you'd like to know more about them and their beliefs, please do a Google search on "Acts 29" for starters. The ONLY REASON they cut Mark Driscoll loose (my opinion, of course) is because he was about to bring down the entire moneymaking machine. One of the clauses in the member contract is that you must share proof of your yearly income with church leadership so they can calculate your tithe.

 

The ONLY REASON Village Church relented on the woman in question is because she was smart enough to tell her story to the media. The abuses of the Acts 29 group to their membership are all over the Web and make some pretty nightmarish reading.

 

And I think Josh may already be working behind the scenes with the org that just allegedly fired him. They want that entree into the Gothardite voting bloc. Badly. IMHO, of course.

Great post. I've followed the machinations of Driscoll and MH for years, so I was jumping for joy when I heard he was being forced out by the Acts 29 cabal. 

 

As for Josh, he's easily replaced by any number of uber-conservative homeschooled graduates of places like Patrick Henry, which place a premium on politically-motivated students who were previously homeschooled, more in the Seewald mold than the Duggars, but you get the idea. The Harris twins have written books, led mega seminars, and are pursuing careers in writing and law. They are even a bit younger than Josh. They (or even one of them) would be a perfect fill-in to get the youth vote galvanized; they already have a huge built-in base of fans. 

 

Just saying that there are a lot of people who could do what Josh did. They may not have had a TV show, but then again, a lot of that voting bloc doesn't own TVs. They DO own computers, and go to homeschooling conferences. Before the scandal, Doug Phillips' oldest son might have been a candidate for a job like Josh's. He doesn't have the college pedigree, although he may have reconsidered that after the fall of his father, but Vison Forum also had a very big following amongst those folks, including the Seewalds. Ben would know who Joshua Titus Phillips is, and I bet he read the Harris brothers' books as a younger teen. 

Edited June 13, 2015 by Sew Sumi

[Literata]

I just can't begin to imagine how any entity would risk association with Josh. After several years, many scandals fade in the collective mind of the public, but this is molestation. Of one's sisters. Including a 5-year-old. I can't see anyone getting past the horror to the point of allowing him a chance at redemption.

[Wellfleet]

I keep thinking about blanket training...I don't have human children but I'm a dog lover and always have had at least two. One really useful skill I've taught several of my puppies is mat training, where you train them to go to a mat and lie down until released. You teach that by rewarding the dog over and over for staying on the mat. It would never cross my mind EVER to mat train them by hurting them if they strayed from the mat...and these are DOGS.

Seriously...who do you have to be to do that to a baby?????????

 

To start, I think you probably had to be someone who was - without a doubt - physically abused as a child. Maybe abused in all sorts of other ways as well. 

[Seashell Lover]

I am wondering if a double-wide or manufactured home is being hurriedly finished on the Duggars' property for Smuggar. The foreclosure they bought is not safe for Anna and the kids to live in because the address is out on the Web and has been for a while. The only hope of safety (in my opinion) is being behind a gate with security, and I'm sure Jim Boob's already taken care of that.

 

Jim Boob is holding all the cards at the moment but I wonder how much dirt Josh may have on HIM. IMHO, of course.

They are living in the house that is not finished as my friend was driving to the casino and she saw the moving trucks there.

[JoanArc]

 

To start, I think you probably had to be someone who was - without a doubt - physically abused as a child. Maybe abused in all sorts of other ways as well.

Being physically abused isn't necessary. You have to be the type of person willing dehumaize others, even your own kids.

 

Stanley Milgram would have a field day with blanket-training moms. May he RIP.

[Churchhoney]

To start, I think you probably had to be someone who was - without a doubt - physically abused as a child. Maybe abused in all sorts of other ways as well. 

 

I don't think it's actually necessary. This is certainly one likely background. But I'm pretty sure that another is just being a control freak and/or a lover of personal power who has little to no empathy, and you can be that without suffering any prior abuse. A non-empathetic person with a lot of repressed anger (which doesn't have to relate to any childhood abuse) is another possibility, I think. Even having a little shade of sexual sadism combined with a lack of empathy could do it, really, I expect.

 

That there's an imperative for "child training" and "breaking the spirits/wills" of children is an old, old tradition, so non-empathetic people of many kinds could use their faux nostalgia for that more godly and law-abiding past to justify it for themselves, I'm pretty sure.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Churchhoney

[GEML]

I think it's used in tremendously fearful communities. Another person who had written about it is Elizabeth Esther, who grew up in an Apocalyptic cult that did blanket training. When you are fearful of the outside world, fearful of the end of the world, fearful of an angry God, fearful if you don't do this, your children will burn in hell for eternity - it's at least possible to see it in a different light, I think. A few weeks, really, of agony for a lifetime of the beginnings of obedience that will protect you for eternity. Eternity is a long time.

The sad thing is that the Bible says HUNDREDS of times, in some variation, "Do not fear."

[Morgalisa]

 

Good grief. How unutterably pathetic. That all these "rules" - for courtship, marriage & family life - were concocted by someone who was never married or raised children, who by his own admission never even kissed a woman - is absolutely, stupifyingly incredible!

 

http://www.abeautifulruckus.com/2014/03/in-which-i-talk-about-surviving-bill.html

 

His idea about Cabbage Patch dolls is batshit.  That if a small girl has a Cabbage Patch doll it is evil and will cause her not to want or to bond with children when she has them.  Also that dolls and troll dolls will stop a pregnant woman's uterus from contracting and she will not be able to have a home birth.  

[Missy Vixen]

Minor thing, I believe it's "complementarianism." Fancy word that these people started taking up in lieu of "patriarchy" because the latter came with too much baggage. They think they're being slick, lol. 

Galax-arena, thank you so much for fixing that for me. ;-) I didn't realize I had the wrong word. And, yeah, they think they're really pulling the wool over their 20's and 30's espresso-swilling congregations' eyes.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Missy Vixen

[What In The]

Paper or plastic?

Perish the thought! As a grocery bagger myself I daresay Joshie would not do well. Along with bagging (at least at my store) we must also carry groceries to the care at times, lift things, and fetch carts from the parking lot and push them back into the store. What will Joshie do on days in the South when it is a hundred degrees and all of them there carts must go inside? Us womenfolk are only required to push six max but since Josh has a penis, he'd be expected to do eight or more. I myself can do eight but then again I ain't golden boy Boob's son. I don't think he has the stamina.

Oh, by the way, that's eight carts at once then going out for more Joshie. I'm a measly woman but I can do it so can you! PUSH JOSH PUSH like your wife does when the kid comes out.

[zenme]

I could totally see Josh working at a big box store walking around like he was a manager and trying to tell his co-workers what to do.  I could also see a customer asking where they could find a certain product and then tasking another co-worker to do the work.

[Muffyn]

Perish the thought! As a grocery bagger myself I daresay Joshie would not do well. Along with bagging (at least at my store) we must also carry groceries to the care at times, lift things, and fetch carts from the parking lot and push them back into the store. What will Joshie do on days in the South when it is a hundred degrees and all of them there carts must go inside? Us womenfolk are only required to push six max but since Josh has a penis, he'd be expected to do eight or more. I myself can do eight but then again I ain't golden boy Boob's son. I don't think he has the stamina.

Oh, by the way, that's eight carts at once then going out for more Joshie. I'm a measly woman but I can do it so can you! PUSH JOSH PUSH like your wife does when the kid comes out.

Now I'm having visions of Josh creating his own personal slip and slide in the parking lot from the rivers of sweat pouring down his body.  I can just see people asking to replace all of their groceries because they are covered in Josh juice.  

Edited June 13, 2015 by Muffyn

[What In The]

Oh, it would be fun! One thing us baggers love to do when pissed at another for trying to skimp out on cart duty is push all of then there carts to the edges of the lot then lock the wheels on their turn. I'd love to see Josh handle that!

 

Oh, and it's a great calorie burner. One, the movement and two, after doing it four times in the heat you are too pooped too eat.

[fliptopbox]

The Village Church (and their buddies, Seattle's Mars Hill Church) are even scarier than the Duggars and their cult, in my opinion. They are hyper-masculine patriarchies that demand one signs a contract to belong to the church and "church discipline" is random and draconian, for starters. They teach something called "compartmentalism", which is a fancy term for "women are second class citizens and will do what men want at all times".  VC and MH dress their Calvinism on steroids up in "We play rock music during our services, the pastor wears jeans in the pulpit, and we let people smoke cigarettes outside of the sanctuary. We are really hip". Seriously, they make Ben Seewald look somewhat reasonable and sane. If you'd like to know more about them and their beliefs, please do a Google search on "Acts 29" for starters. The ONLY REASON they cut Mark Driscoll loose (my opinion, of course) is because he was about to bring down the entire moneymaking machine. One of the clauses in the member contract is that you must share proof of your yearly income with church leadership so they can calculate your tithe.

 

The ONLY REASON Village Church relented on the woman in question is because she was smart enough to tell her story to the media. The abuses of the Acts 29 group to their membership are all over the Web and make some pretty nightmarish reading.

 

And I think Josh may already be working behind the scenes with the org that just allegedly fired him. They want that entree into the Gothardite voting bloc. Badly. IMHO, of course.

I read a bit about VC and this woman's marriage annulment and I saw the words "church discipline" mentioned many times....but I couldn't find anything stating what that actually meant. Also, how can a church group not let a person leave? Parishoners don't live in the church, and if they just don't come back and stop associating with other members there really isn't anything the pastors/elders/whoever can do to stop them. Even if she signed some sort of agreement, unless it was a bona fide legal contract of sorts and not just a church document there isn't a thing the church can do to keep someone as a member. Unless I am really missing something here.. Once a marriage is annuled that's it, right?

[Barbie]

Perish the thought! As a grocery bagger myself I daresay Joshie would not do well. Along with bagging (at least at my store) we must also carry groceries to the care at times, lift things, and fetch carts from the parking lot and push them back into the store. What will Joshie do on days in the South when it is a hundred degrees and all of them there carts must go inside? Us womenfolk are only required to push six max but since Josh has a penis, he'd be expected to do eight or more. I myself can do eight but then again I ain't golden boy Boob's son. I don't think he has the stamina.

Oh, by the way, that's eight carts at once then going out for more Joshie. I'm a measly woman but I can do it so can you! PUSH JOSH PUSH like your wife does when the kid comes out.

I read this at first as Josie bagging groceries and thought yeah she'd be licking everything before she put it in the bag... 

[galax-arena]

I saw the words "church discipline" mentioned many times....but I couldn't find anything stating what that actually meant. 

I'm not sure about the Village Church's discipline, but here's a link outlining another church's process step by step. Essentially, it means being rebuked/chastised by the church until you repent. 

 

And no, a church can't stop someone from leaving. But they'll just keep harassing you and refuse to take you off their membership rolls. The latter could theoretically give you problems joining a new church down the line, I believe; it depends on the new church's policy re: holding dual membership. 

[Missy Vixen]

I read a bit about VC and this woman's marriage annulment and I saw the words "church discipline" mentioned many times....but I couldn't find anything stating what that actually meant. Also, how can a church group not let a person leave? Parishoners don't live in the church, and if they just don't come back and stop associating with other members there really isn't anything the pastors/elders/whoever can do to stop them. Even if she signed some sort of agreement, unless it was a bona fide legal contract of sorts and not just a church document there isn't a thing the church can do to keep someone as a member. Unless I am really missing something here.. Once a marriage is annuled that's it, right?

"Church discipline" is a fancy term for "do it our way, or else". It's typically invoked against those who choose to follow their own common sense instead of draconian and unforgiving "church rules" allegedly based on Biblical truth, but can be shaped and twisted by those in charge of the church to mean almost anything. You are right: The woman from Village Church is an adult. She has the right to annul a marriage to a guy who lied to her (and concealed) his addiction to child pornography. It really isn't the church's business what she does as an adult, but their covenants decree that there will be No Divorce. For any reason. Well, I'm sure there's some type of "out" in case one's wife gains a lot of weight and isn't sexually attractive anymore -- oops, did I say that? My bad. Back to the "church discipline". There's plenty to go around, but as those who've been subject to church discipline have discovered, you'll be treated to things like shunning, the contacting of your employer/uninvolved family members/neighbors/pastors of other local churches you might want to attend, an "action plan" of sorts to bring you back into the fold, etcetera. They don't just let you leave. You can't leave until you've fulfilled your "discipline". In other words, any adult signing one of these contracts has surrendered their autonomy and/or decision making in favor of allowing a group of men to dictate how you should and should not live your life. If you'd like to read more, The Stranger (independent newspaper in Seattle) did a series on Mars Hill and church discipline. http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/church-or-cult/Content?oid=12172001

 

I know someone who has been dealing with "church discipline" at a certain church in the Seattle area for a while now. It's not a joke. And it is astounding to hear another adult's experiences being harassed in the name of "Jesus" by people that really, really need to find another hobby.

 

One also has to wonder what "church discipline" is like at a home church. One can only imagine the fun, especially when there is no accountability or control over those handing out the punishments.

 

Edited because hello, I do speak English...

Edited June 14, 2015 by Missy Vixen

[Julia]

I'm not sure about the Village Church's discipline, but here's a link outlining another church's process step by step. Essentially, it means being rebuked/chastised by the church until you repent. 

 

And no, a church can't stop someone from leaving. But they'll just keep harassing you and refuse to take you off their membership rolls. The latter could theoretically give you problems joining a new church down the line, I believe; it depends on the new church's policy re: holding dual membership. 

 

Mars Hill, the church those articles are about, has since imploded (a few people mentioned their pastor, Mark Driscoll, above). There were accusations of financial misconduct, but the biggest problems had to do with the church leadership, who got a little intoxicated on the methane rising from their manly headship and started treating male parishioners and clergy the same authoritarian way they were treating women and children. Along with a little scientology-style demanding blackmail material from parishioners. It didn't end well.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Julia

[galax-arena]

Mars Hill, the church those articles are about, has since imploded (a few people mentioned their pastor, Mark Driscoll, above).

Damn, they were connected to Mars Hill too?? I knew that Mars Hill had gone under, but wasn't familiar with all of the offshoot names. Hmph. Why couldn't they do like Hillsong and just keep the same name? Hillsong LA... Hillsong NYC... Hillsong Sydney. Cuts down on the confusion. 

[Julia]

Damn, they were connected to Mars Hill too?? I knew that Mars Hill had gone under, but wasn't familiar with all of the offshoot names. Hmph. Why couldn't they do like Hillsong and just keep the same name? Hillsong LA... Hillsong NYC... Hillsong Sydney. Cuts down on the confusion. 

 

I don't know if the Duggars have any connection to him. A few people posted links to church discipline articles which turned out to be about Mars Hill (background here and here, if anyone's interested).

 

ETA: This guy appears to think there's a doctrinal connection through Gothard, fwiw.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Julia

[galax-arena]

I don't know if the Duggars have any connection to him.

To clarify, by "they" I was referring to the church link I posted in the part you quoted (Grace Community Church), not the Duggars. Except when I hover over the URL in the part you quoted, it goes to a Daily Beast article. But the original URL in my comment was http://www.gty.org/resources/distinctives/dd02/church-discipline. Now I'm confused lol. I guess Grace isn't part of the Mars Hill/Acts 29 network after all. 

 

I don't believe the Duggars are linked to Mars Hill at all. 

[GEML]

There is no connection between Gothard, Jim Bob Duggar and Mark Driscoll at all. You put two alpha religious males and one alpha wannabe in the room and you get a fight - not a coordinated effort to change America. (I'm calling JB as the wannabe.)

[galax-arena]

But I'm betting Mark Driscoll isn't manly enough to hump his wife on a golf course... 

[GEML]

And that type of stuff is what distinguishes a true Alpha religious fanatic from JB's wannabe! ;)

[Missy Vixen]

I knew that Mars Hill had gone under, but wasn't familiar with all of the offshoot names. Hmph. Why couldn't they do like Hillsong and just keep the same name? Hillsong LA... Hillsong NYC... Hillsong Sydney. Cuts down on the confusion. 

Nasty little local secret: Mars Hill has allegedly closed, but offshoot churches (with the same rules and personnel) are still operating. VC and Hillsong are both apologists for one Mark Driscoll as well, who is evidently planning on making a comeback.

 

What does this have to do with the Duggars? Calvinism (extreme legalism). Patriarchy. The Duggars come right at you with their "theology". The complementarians dress it up in hipsters and rock music to make it more palatable.

But I'm betting Mark Driscoll isn't manly enough to hump his wife on a golf course... 

He is manly enough to brag about his wife's "frigidity" (the aftermath of a sexual assault) from the pulpit of his church and in the pages of the book Real Marriage, however... He also went into great detail about how his wife wasn't a virgin when they wed, which "hurt him deeply". Of course he said nothing about the fact he was not quite so chaste himself.

 

Sound like someone else we know? Hey, Jim Boob, I'm looking at you! And I'm wondering if ol' JB's offering some type of grad-level SOTDRT course on "how to treat the little woman".

There is no connection between Gothard, Jim Bob Duggar and Mark Driscoll at all. You put two alpha religious males and one alpha wannabe in the room and you get a fight - not a coordinated effort to change America. (I'm calling JB as the wannabe.)

Driscoll is of an age that he most likely would have attended Gothard's yearly Basic Youth Conflicts seminars in Seattle. In any case, they're all singing the same song. I don't think this is coincidental.

[Aethera]

We're drifting off topic a bit. Let's move any further discussion of these other churches to the religion thread, please!  We're in the Josh & Anna thread here :)

[Missy Vixen]

We're drifting off topic a bit. Let's move any further discussion of these other churches to the religion thread, please!  We're in the Josh & Anna thread here :)

Aethera, thank you. I'm off to the religion thread.

[flyingdi]

You know what? I think Anna is a major part of the reason Josh is keeping a low profile. As I have said before, out of all these women, Anna is not an actress. She tries to keep sweet and I truly believe she and Josh have genuine feelings for each other, but if I was advising them I would not put Anna on camera in this situation. I do not believe, no matter what she says, that she knew the full extent of what happened before she got married and in an interview it would show. The problem with Anna is that every emotion she has clearly shows on her face. She is, out of all of them, not even remotely good at hiding her feelings.

[becca3891]

You know what? I think Anna is a major part of the reason Josh is keeping a low profile. As I have said before, out of all these women, Anna is not an actress. She tries to keep sweet and I truly believe she and Josh have genuine feelings for each other, but if I was advising them I would not put Anna on camera in this situation. I do not believe, no matter what she says, that she knew the full extent of what happened before she got married and in an interview it would show. The problem with Anna is that every emotion she has clearly shows on her face. She is, out of all of them, not even remotely good at hiding her feelings.

Good points. I would love to know the truth regarding how much Anna knew. It would be a pretty big gamble for Josh to only tell her the vague "I had moral failings as a teenager" nonsense. Unless she was lying in her public statement, she said that she was shocked when Josh told her the truth before they ever started courting. No reason to be shocked if all he said was that he had wrong thoughts. Having been steeped in Gothardism, she knew that was probably to be expected. So maybe she really did know. I hope so, for her sake, because otherwise, she must be shocked, hurting, angry, etc. [snip]

Edited June 15, 2015 by bigskygirl
Speculating Josh may molest again (his own daughter)

[TaxNerd]

You know what? I think Anna is a major part of the reason Josh is keeping a low profile. As I have said before, out of all these women, Anna is not an actress. She tries to keep sweet and I truly believe she and Josh have genuine feelings for each other, but if I was advising them I would not put Anna on camera in this situation. I do not believe, no matter what she says, that she knew the full extent of what happened before she got married and in an interview it would show. The problem with Anna is that every emotion she has clearly shows on her face. She is, out of all of them, not even remotely good at hiding her feelings.

I really don't think Anna has to act supportive of Josh, she is all in to this lifestyle. Josh said it's taken care of, he repented and was forgiven, so Anna has nothing to worry about, and I don't think she is. She is probably upset thet had to move back to AR, but no need to hide that emotion from the press. In our world it would be normal to be angry at Josh, but not in her world.

I agree I don't think she knew the full story back two years before they were married, although she may have heard a watered down version. I still don't think she knows the full story (neither do we). I honestly think her isolation is for her protection as much as to sheild her from the public. Can you imagine her going to the grocery store with Mackenzie and people yelling at her to watch her daughter around her husband? Now she is only getting information filtered through the Duggars.

An interesting quote from one of the Mars Hill articles from earlier is that questioning can lead to sinning though questioning. I think that viewpoint really holds true in the fundie world and Anna isn't actually questioning Josh at all.

Edited June 15, 2015 by TaxNerd

[GEML]

oh yes, I remember the crack downs against questioning. That's rebellion against authority. That's never good.

[Ljohnson1987]

Happy fourth birthday Michael!