Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Ljohnson1987]

Smugs and Anna are moving back to Arkansas.

[Lemur]

I can't imagine Josh putting any effort into getting any job, since both jobs he's had were handed to him because of who he was.  JimBob gave the crown prince the car lot and the hate group in D.C. gave him the job because he's on a popular TV show and shares their bigoted views.  No need for an education or proven work ethic.....after all, he's Josh Duggar.

 

Daddy Duggar will buy him another car lot or a tow truck.  Fear not.

[Mindymoo]

Of course he wouldn't!  Saul had a personality and a few brains.

And he worked his ass off in night school to get through law school and pass the bar. No way Josh would be able to do that.

[Wellfleet]

Oh, I dunno.  Like I said, I worked in the registrar's office of a law school (not a very good one, mind you), and I was continually amazed that some of  these people had not only managed to get undergrad degrees but that they were living unsupervised.  I had one student who still had to call his parents every time he needed his SSN.  

 

When I worked in university admissions, I was stunned by the number of mothers were still doing things for their grad school-age sons. Dropping off payments, transcripts, calling to check on status etc. In fifteen years, I took only one call from a parent on behalf of an applicant daughter, and that was because the daughter was still overseas on a Fulbright scholarship. Women of America - don't baby your boys. Teach them to be as independent and self-sufficient as your daughters! You'll be doing yourself, and your future daughters-in-law, a big favor...

[JoanArc]

 

I think his only hope is making meth in Stinkbus #2 in some desolate part of Arkansas.  ;)

Pffft. His family owns lots of land and warehouses. He'd have privacy. He's also not the Jesse Pinkman stoner-but-secret-genius type either. Josh could never figure out a chemical equation.

[Sew Sumi]

I think it's because one of the earlier documentaries said that his dream job was to become an attorney.

 

But IA with you in that I don't see him as ever being diligent enough to do all the necessary work. He's been living on easy street for a while now, no way he'd be able to adjust to the grind of law school and studying for the bar. And I know in some states you can take the bar exam without attending law school, but to me that seems even more unlikely. I don't think Josh has the faculty for being that sort of autodidact.

 

IIRC, you can only sit for the bar w/o having attended law school in California. I seriously doubt he's coming here to practice among the liberal heathens. :D

 

I also agree that he doesn't seem to have the right stuff to survive law school, but he could do college on the 5 year plan as a Community College transfer. Remember that even that derp Ben has an AA. eta: That said, I bet both of them would need a chemistry tutor. Ben probably got away with just needing biology for his two-year degree. He may still need some GenEd courses in order to transfer, which is why he probably isn't. 

 

Just let me have my dream of Smuggar in classes with kids 10 years younger, doing twice as well! LOL

Edited June 11, 2015 by Sew Sumi

[Tunia]

Sounds like Josh and Anna will have to buy used and save the difference!

[GEML]

Josh doesn't have the training to be anyone's campaign manager. Even at the state rep or senator level. Plus, those are jobs taken by people who are willing to make very little money and work 24/7 for the chance to build their own resumes. Josh is simultaneously too old (four children) or too inexperienced to do it.

He could become an aid to someone in Little Rock, however. That's a pretty decent job - not a ton of money but likely decent benefits. It's behind the scenes and would give him some privacy while still keeping him in the game.

But I think from here on out his life is decided by his father. He's brought down the family twice. Jim Bob won't risk him being outside the "umbrella of his protection" again.

[Churchhoney]

IIRC, you can only sit for the bar w/o having attended law school in California. I seriously doubt he's coming here to practice among the liberal heathens. :D

 

I also agree that he doesn't seem to have the right stuff to survive law school, but he could do college on the 5 year plan as a Community College transfer. Remember that even that derp Ben has an AA. 

 

I wonder what you major in after SOTDRT?

 

They don't seem to teach love of math there, which leaves out a heck of a lot of useful modern majors. I'm all for humanities degrees, but if you get one of those you have to exert even more hustle and creativity to turn it into a salable commodity in this day and age. That would probably leave Josh out. Maybe he can flip houses? That seems to be a family specialty -- to some degree, anyway; although they seem to be holding more than flipping these days, looks like.

[galax-arena]

 I'm all for humanities degrees,

Maybe Josh could major in literature! Fiction has a way of opening minds and goodness knows Josh could use some of that magic. 

[Saylii]

I wonder what you major in after SOTDRT?

They don't seem to teach love of math there, which leaves out a heck of a lot of useful modern majors. I'm all for humanities degrees, but if you get one of those you have to exert even more hustle and creativity to turn it into a salable commodity in this day and age. That would probably leave Josh out. Maybe he can flip houses? That seems to be a family specialty -- to some degree, anyway; although they seem to be holding more than flipping these days, looks like.

My college had a "University Studies" degree that was a BA. It was basically for football players and girls double majoring in their MRS degrees. It's still a four year college degree and would get Josh past that requirement on job applications.

[bluebonnet]

That reminds me of something I've been wanting to ask. I've seen a number of pictures of the babies of these people (Duggars/Bates/Wallers) lying on a blanket on the floor. Does this mean they are doing blanket training? Because it seems very odd to me otherwise to use the floor as a place to lay your baby?

I don't think there is anything strange about laying a baby on the floor.  My niece is on a blanket on the floor right now.  She's having a ball playing with her little gym thingy.  Earlier she was sleeping on the floor.  But blanket training, definitely not happening here.  This little rolly poly can roll around all she wants.  

[OSM Mom]

That reminds me of something I've been wanting to ask. I've seen a number of pictures of the babies of these people (Duggars/Bates/Wallers) lying on a blanket on the floor. Does this mean they are doing blanket training? Because it seems very odd to me otherwise to use the floor as a place to lay your baby?

Both my kid's and all the grandkids were on the floor on a blanket for tummy time. Starting to try and figure out how to roll over and crawl and whatnot. We were always right next to them on the floor too. And no training. But the blanket was cleaner than carpet. No matter how much I cleaned it. So I don't think just being on the floor is that unusual.

[NEGirl]

I come from a family of attorneys so to speak. My brohter-in-law, two nieces and one nephew are all corporate attorneys in DC, Chicago and the NY/NJ area. All went to excellent(1 Ivy) law schools and passed the bar on their first try. They works their butts off 7 days per week for very long hours. If they are not working in the office they are putting very long hours at home(usually Sun.). I do not  want to knock on Josh or any of the other kids for their lack of education - that is not their fault. That lies with Boob and J'Chelle who felt it was better to raise uneducated kids. However, that said, Josh could have done a lot to further his education after he married Anna:courses at a community college and on line. I have no idea if he has done any of this. With his lack of education he would need a great deal of help to get through Community College. It can be done - people return to school every day under much more trying circumstances than Josh. I do not think he has what it takes to do this. He has had no structure in his life and would have to really apply himself.  I feel bad for all the kids that they were denied such a basic need to progress in life. I can not see Josh passing any type of bar exam.  I put tons of work to obtain my BA in Poli Sci/English from a very good school. Endless term papers and reading while working the whole time to pay for my schooling. It is so sad that a parent would think it ok to not give their child even the tools to graduate from high school.

That said, I do not think Ben is as stupid as he appears. He may act like a dufus, but at least he received an AA Degree. Hope he chooses to further his education.

Edited June 11, 2015 by NEGirl

[NikSac]

I don't think there is anything strange about laying a baby on the floor.  My niece is on a blanket on the floor right now.  She's having a ball playing with her little gym thingy.  Earlier she was sleeping on the floor.  But blanket training, definitely not happening here.  This little rolly poly can roll around all she wants.  

 

I was thinking the same thing. It seems safer there than rolling around on a bed or couch. I can find all sorts of things to criticize them about, but their baby laying on a blanket on the floor isn't one of them. (now if there's a 'rod' next to it, that could totally change - I'm just talking about the baby on the blanket)

[Porkchop]

What is blanket training?

[bluebonnet]

What is blanket training?

Blanket training is step one in destroying curiosity and exploration in children.  Plus, it involves causing pain to a baby.  

[NikSac]

What is blanket training?

 

For whatever it's worth - Wikipedia's description: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanket_training

 

My personal impression: whacking  your child so they won't crawl, lean, reach, etc. off of the blanket you laid them down on. Eventually they learn Mom/Dad/someone will hurt them if they leave the blanket, so they stay on it.

ETA: just realized my posts back to back may have been confusing. I am not opposed to a baby laying on a blanket on the floor, but I'm most definitely opposed to hitting them to be sure they stay there at all times.

Edited June 11, 2015 by NikSac

[Wellfleet]

Is Josh even willing to take first year college classes or any remedial coursework he may need?  If his ego hasn't been shrunk, I expect he might think he's ready to go to work on someone's campaign.

 

I don't think college is a part of Josh's future, even though it might have been a few weeks ago. I don't think he's got the drive to complete the years of work he'd face, which in his case would almost undoubtedly include remedial coursework. And of course the whole time, he'd be hearing a lot of negativity about it from Boob. I guess he'll answer "You'll have to ask my Dad..." when future employers wonder why he hasn't got a degree.

[BitterApple]

I think Josh going to college largely depends on his drive and how much Boob is willing to finance him. I think we've reached a consensus that if a show or spin-off were to continue, TPTB won't allow Josh to be featured. That's one source of income gone. FRC forced his resignation, so there's another source. Anyone who's been out of work can testify that money seems to go twice as fast when you no longer have any coming in. If Boob is pissed at Josh I can't see him supporting his family AND paying for him to attend college.

[Wellfleet]

My college had a "University Studies" degree that was a BA. It was basically for football players and girls double majoring in their MRS degrees. It's still a four year college degree and would get Josh past that requirement on job applications.

 

My school has a BS in Applied Arts & Sciences, a multidisciplinary program in which the student basically "designs his own" undergrad program with the help of an advisor. Certain requirements have to be met obviously. This program is most utilized by people who have been in the work force for a period of time, have or don't have some college already, but have advanced in their jobs enough, through their own spunk and hard work, to the point where they need to have credentials. In many cases these students use their work backgrounds and experience as a concentration point in their programs. It's rarely chosen by an 18-year old straight-out-of-high-school student but is very popular with late 20s, 30 and 40-somethings who often go on to our multidisciplinary MS program as well. 

Edited June 12, 2015 by Wellfleet

[cereality]

Any idea why Josh and Anna moved back to Arkansas rather than Florida? Was it just bc they have the house there, or do we think JB was actively on the phone demanding that Josh return right this second? I get why they left DC -- he was only there for a job and once that job ended, there was no point staying in an expensive east coast city (even the suburbs of one) when you don't have income.

 

I feel like Josh returning means JB gets to run his/Anna's life forever while gloating about how he "saved" them. I suspect he'll give Josh a car lot or another business or involve him with his real estate ventures (though I have no clue what that involves on a daily basis -- if you're leasing out warehouses, once they're leased -- you're pretty much sitting tight until the lessor decides to bolt; presumably you don't/can't afford to buy property daily). If not that, I can see JB hooking Josh up with a job through a connection -- whether a Christian small business that agrees Josh and the Duggars were wronged or some low level aspiring Arkansas politician who feels the same way.

 

If they had gone down to Florida -- nothing would have been handed to them bc the Kellers aren't rich, but they would have been able to create a life for themselves -- whatever that may look like post-DC -- without JB having a hand in it. I have recently gotten to like Josh and Anna as a couple -- it felt like the move to DC brought them closer as a couple probably bc they both left rural small towns surrounded by family for the first time, got to DC and probably said "holy $hit" and realized all they had was each other. Now back in Arkansas -- it'll be about putting JB first again, rather than putting their own marriage first -- which likely needs a lot of repair since I'm guessing Anna didn't take Josh's confession of "I had a lot of complicated feelings as a young boy" to mean what it turned out to mean.

[Beaner]

I am a big fan of trade schools. Josh should go for training for plumbing, electronics, welding, mechanics, carpentry, just to name a few. There are a lot of options. Most programs are 1-2 years & affordable. He could certainly make a good living and be able to provide for his family. He might even be able to join a union, which is really where the money is. I know plenty of tradesmen who make a very good living.

[ChocolateAddict]

I have a question about the divorce thing. 

 

Hypothetically, if a fundie woman with children found out that her husband was a pedophile, would that be grounds for divorce?  Or would they not let the father live with his children?  What would happen?

 

I'm not saying that Josh is a pedophile, it is just that this discussion about battered spouses, divorce and so on made me curious.  

[zenme]

Well, Josh is a grown up. If he doesn't have the peach pitts to be on his own and without Mama and Daddy, then I don't feel sorry for him one bit, especially if he feels his dad runs his life. Plenty of people have to get out on their own and make a life for themselves. Precious Josh's life is as it is because of choices he's made, just like anyone else.

[galax-arena]

Hypothetically, if a fundie woman with children found out that her husband was a pedophile, would that be grounds for divorce?

You might be interested in reading about the recent Village Church controversy. Nuts-and-bolts version: Wife found out that her husband was a pedophile and possessed child pornography. Wife had the marriage annulled and left the church. Shit hit the fan because the membership covenant of the church doesn't "allow" members to leave if they're under church discipline, and the wife had been placed under church discipline for daring to have the marriage annulled.

 

Not really familiar with the Village Church, so I have no idea how extreme or mainstream they are compared to the Duggars. Probably less extreme, though. 

 

ETA: After the scandal hit the media, the church ended up apologizing to the wife and acknowledging that she had biblical grounds for divorce/annulment.

Edited June 12, 2015 by galax-arena

[CofCinci]

Why Arkansas and not Florida? Jim Bob's wallet is in Arkansas.

Mic drop.

[NikSac]

I am a big fan of trade schools. Josh should go for training for plumbing, electronics, welding, mechanics, carpentry, just to name a few. There are a lot of options. Most programs are 1-2 years & affordable. He could certainly make a good living and be able to provide for his family. He might even be able to join a union, which is really where the money is. I know plenty of tradesmen who make a very good living.

 

I am too, generally, but I don't think it's the right fit for everyone. Is Josh good at any of those things?  Some people really have an aptitude for it and some just really don't. I don't remember ever seeing him go "yay, we're putting in flooring!" but I am admittedly a sporadic watcher.  My husband's a mechanic and it's amazing the difference you can see between people who have an aptitude for it vs. those who just went to school because it seemed like a good idea at the time. Maybe it's just me but I see Josh as more of a "desk job" guy.

[Happyfatchick]

I think he once said he wanted to be one.

I always wanted to be a doctor. And tall, and beautiful, rich, intelligent, savvy, and a great mother. Hey, you can't be a TOTAL failure.

[cheatincheetos]

My mom could whip off her flip flop and swat a bottom faster than you could blink. I never, admittedly, thought of what I got (or what my kids got) as corporal punishment. So there, I've admitted I was a swatter.

But I CANNOT for the LIFE of me imagine a sane person going into a hardware store to buy a length of tubing for the sole purpose of hitting a child with it. Good Lord! What is WRONG with these people????

I'm surprised that they haven't made a "Seen on Fundie TV" product to cash in. It would be advertised only to like-minded folks of course. The Smitemaster 5000.

Edited June 12, 2015 by cheatincheetos

[RazzleberryPie]

I have a question about the divorce thing. 

 

Hypothetically, if a fundie woman with children found out that her husband was a pedophile, would that be grounds for divorce?  Or would they not let the father live with his children?  What would happen?

 

I'm not saying that Josh is a pedophile, it is just that this discussion about battered spouses, divorce and so on made me curious.  

Hypothetically, in Gothard's world, she'd most likely be blame for not submitting herself to her husband's desires (not making herself available, not looking the way he wanted, not anticipating his thoughts and needs, so he never had any reason for a problem). 

 

Depending on the church and her family's standing, she might be able (in non-Gothard world) to divorce him, but most likely not remarry.

Edited June 12, 2015 by RazzleberryPie

[Sew Sumi]

I think he had his fair share of manual labor when he was forced to help build the TTH. Never in the footage of them building did he ever seem really enthused about it. 

[Muffyn]

Maybe it's just me but I see Josh as more of a "desk job" guy.

I see Josh as more of a couch and box of donuts guy.  

[FakeJoshDuggar]

You might be interested in reading about the recent Village Church controversy. Nuts-and-bolts version: Wife found out that her husband was a pedophile and possessed child pornography. Wife had the marriage annulled and left the church. Shit hit the fan because the membership covenant of the church doesn't "allow" members to leave if they're under church discipline, and the wife had been placed under church discipline for daring to have the marriage annulled.

Not really familiar with the Village Church, so I have no idea how extreme or mainstream they are compared to the Duggars. Probably less extreme, though.

ETA: After the scandal hit the media, the church ended up apologizing to the wife and acknowledging that she had biblical grounds for divorce/annulment.

Omg Doug Phillips! Interestingly enough, he admitted to having a long term affair with his children's nanny who was a teenager at the beginning of his grooming of her. I swear to shit, while Vision Forum was separate than ATI the Duggars did know them, there are so many instances of sexual misconduct surrounding these people.

Doug and Beall Philips also gave Michelle her MotY award.

Edited June 12, 2015 by FakeJoshDuggar

[Sew Sumi]

Lourdes' case is still under litigation. You KNOW Dougie Phillips, Esq. is stonewalling up to his eyeballs. Granted, he's only 5'7" so that's not very high, but you get the idea. :D

 

As for Smuggar, maybe he was grooming himself for a future career as an evangelist or politician. I'll show myself out to the Prayer Closet. 

[Happyfatchick]

I'll show myself out to the Prayer Closet.

Cry (a lot). Have your attorney prepare a press release. Hide. Have your parents do interviews. Hide some more. Have a struggling politician make a press release in your favor. Hide deeper. Have your sisters do an interview and tell their side of the story and completely confuse everyone as to your role - were they victims, or is this totally blown out of proportion to your sin? Stay in hiding. Redemption is yours, but you have to stay in hiding until you are very, very old and you've gotten everyone you've ever known in your life to speak up for you. It could happen.

Hey, Sew! Could you vacuum and tidy up while you're in there? Traffic's been a little heavy lately.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Happyfatchick

[BitterApple]

Why Arkansas and not Florida? Jim Bob's wallet is in Arkansas.

Mic drop.

Yup^^. Although I think Pa Keller is much better connected in Gothard circles than Boob. He probably could have hooked Josh up with a job in some church member's business and saved him from a life spent groveling at Boob's feet.

[KateUK]

Josh seems to have a huge sense of entitlement, he is the No.1 Duggar son after all and we should all bow our heads and acknowledge this!

 

There is no way he will go back to school/college, there is no way he will work for anybody other than his father now, his total and utter belief in himself and his 'elevated position' as the golden child with a hot line to God will stop him doing this,

 

I just can't imagine him toeing the line like us lowly plebs have to do on a daily basis, by turning up to probably menial/manual job as he isn't smart enough for anything else, being told what to do and being expected to do it.

 

No, he will most certainly be 'employed' by his father, none of them will ever, imo, break free from Jim Bob.

 

 

 

 

[Morgalisa]

Well, under Gothard, men remain under their father's authority for life. Women remain until marriage when it is transferred to their husband. So Josh will work wherever JimBob tells him. JimBob seems to want authority over his sons-in-law and their wives. I wonder how strictly they follow Gothard.

[becca3891]

Well, under Gothard, men remain under their father's authority for life. Women remain until marriage when it is transferred to their husband. So Josh will work wherever JimBob tells him. JimBob seems to want authority over his sons-in-law and their wives. I wonder how strictly they follow Gothard.

They encourage adult sons (not daughters, of course) to become independent, so I don't think that's actually true, especially not when the sons are married. They're supposed to be the heads of their own houses and not still under their fathers's authority. But in Josh's case, he really has no choice but to crawl back to Boob.

 

Has there been a total disconnect between the Duggars and the Bates? As much as Gil Bates is connected with Gothardism I don't think he would let someone mess with his kids.

I always thought their supposedly wonderful friendship was played up by TLC because they liked the angle of both families having 19 kids. Yes, they saw each other every year at the ATI conference, but I don't think they were ever amazingly close. Now, assuming the Bateses didn't know everything before, I'm guessing they'll keep their distance more than ever.

[Morgalisa]

Bcca I read on Razing Ruth that a man remains under his father's authority after marriage. The blogger said she has witnessed a sixty year old still under his father's uthority.

[anony mouse]

Bcca I read on Razing Ruth that a man remains under his father's authority after marriage. The blogger said she has witnessed a sixty year old still under his father's uthority.

From what I understand, Razing Ruth was a fraud and merely pretending to have come from a fundamentalist lifestyle.

[GEML]

I do not think it is official policy to have a married son under his father's authority, but when you have each generation receiving less education in an ever increasingly education heavy world, the first generation probably having the most successful business due to longevity, and the sons are raised to revere their fathers, you almost certainly are going to get that result in all practical ways.

While we mention Pearl's book for blanket training, it's worth mentioning that he learned it from the Amish. It's used to teach children first and foremost to be able to remain quiet during long church services. And if you discourage curiosity from a very young age, they will be less curious about leaving the bigger blanket - that of the community for the outside world.

It's easy to see why Fundy subcultures like the Duggars found this appealing. But just as not all Amish used this, not all Fundys did. Not even all of Gothards followers did.

[Julia]

I may be way off on this, but I get a vibe off of Jim Bob like he's the patriarchal version of a cheerleading mom. He seems to be really bitter about his own dad not being rich or powerful enough, or giving him enough of a head start. I wonder if all the Josh-pimping is even about Josh, or about Jim Bob succeeding where he thinks his own father failed, whether or not that's what Josh actually wants.

[Morgalisa]

Sorry. I meant Recovering Grace. IF i can find it I will try to link.

[Fuzzysox]

I am a big fan of trade schools. Josh should go for training for plumbing, electronics, welding, mechanics, carpentry, just to name a few. There are a lot of options. Most programs are 1-2 years & affordable. He could certainly make a good living and be able to provide for his family. He might even be able to join a union, which is really where the money is. I know plenty of tradesmen who make a very good living.

Josh can go Amish and learn those skills for free but seriously he is too lazy to go back to school. He wants money for nothing and lacks a work hard at anything ethic.

[CofCinci]

Why would Josh go to trade school? He's most likely been doing construction work since age 11. We all know for certain that at age 14, he was sent to remodel a former HobbyLobby building.

[Lemur]

While we mention Pearl's book for blanket training, it's worth mentioning that he learned it from the Amish. It's used to teach children first and foremost to be able to remain quiet during long church services. And if you discourage curiosity from a very young age, they will be less curious about leaving the bigger blanket - that of the community for the outside world.

 

The Amish also allow for Rumspringga before their young adults decide to be baptized.  They at least give their kids the option of going out into the world. 

[dillpickles]

Why would Josh go to trade school? He's most likely been doing construction work since age 11. We all know for certain that at age 14, he was sent to remodel a former HobbyLobby building.

To get some actual trainin', and a license.

[Loves2Dance]

Why would Josh go to trade school? He's most likely been doing construction work since age 11. We all know for certain that at age 14, he was sent to remodel a former HobbyLobby building.

Experience is good, but for most of the higher paying trade school jobs, he needs a license and that means school.