Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Madtown]

Anna has already had a long life and it's about to get even longer. First, no one told her to have 7 kids. Considering the men in these marriages have more say than the women, Josh, should've just stopped and said no more after about 3. We know he wasn't thrilled when they announced number 4.  Her life is much harder with 7 kids.

The only life skills she's ever been taught was having babies and tending to her husband's every need. If she wasn't so delusional in believing that Josh is innocent, she could possibly try to find a way out. If she had any clue, she should be pissed at her parents for this marriage, pissed and JB and Michelle for not telling her about Josh(her parents too). She should want to get out of that situation and have a life outside of this shithole she's stuck in.

Living with JimBob and Michelle is probably her best choice, sadly. I can't imagine that life. Those kids deserve so much better.

[Natalie68]

On 5/26/2022 at 8:07 AM, cmr2014 said:

I think Anna believes that Joshua was framed by the evil government and is being persecuted because he's a Christian.

I think that JB thinks that Joshua did the crime, but that it's a "sin" not a "crime" and should be dealt with within the religious community (e.g. by him).

I think J'chelle tries very hard not to think of it at all . . .

Man, these are very simpleminded people.  I can't imagine being of a singular mind.  No critical thinking and nothing to their identity other than being a Christian.  They need to quit thinking they are fucking victims and think about the actual victims for a change.  I am HERE for the downfall of these idiots.  I have been waiting since the information was alleged eons ago about Josh (Alice letter).  I think there is more icky stuff to JB than we know.

[Natalie68]

21 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I think Josh possibly has antisocial personality disorder and as a rule personalities disorders don't respond to treatment as well as other mental health disorders. I certainly think Josh should take advantage of any treatment offered while he's in prison, but I wouldn't bet the farm he would see any improvement.

Even in youth, parents are rarely are the cause of youthful offenses like Josh's and treatment, again, isn't that effective, if effective at all. Its sad to say there is a very (thankfully) small percentage of the human population that are bad seeds. Their brains are biologically different. These folks usually end up as serial killers, sexual predators, con men and I suppose pedophiles could be included, though they are different.

That's not to say we should give up on these folks. Its just to say successful outcomes are few and far between.

Even Josh's lawyers knew this. They know he'll be looking at legal porn as soon as he's out and will move onto deviant porn as soon as he thinks he can get away with it.

I can say with all honesty I could see Josh as any of those bolded.  He doesn't seem too different from the people I see on ID.  I personally think he is 3 of the 4 anyway.  

[SusanM]

22 minutes ago, Madtown said:

If she wasn't so delusional in believing that Josh is innocent, she could possibly try to find a way out.

I wonder if she really, deep down, does believe he's innocent.  Maybe she does.  I think though what she is in denial over is exactly what it is that he did.  I think she figuratively sticks her fingers in her ears and goes "la la la I can't hear you" whenever anyone tries to tell her exactly what he has been convicted of.  

[Westiepeach]

3 hours ago, madpsych78 said:

Ugh, I just had a thought that if Anna wanted to leave, Boob would only allow her to leave if she signed her parental rights over to him and Michelle Jana.

FIFY.  Michelle never raised her own children. There is no way she would raise the M kids.

[WhitneyWhit]

I haven’t posted about the Duggars in forever but damn, this is so fucking tragic I don’t even know where to start. Everything about this was preventable, only  if those morons had acted like parents. 

I’m relieved to see his siblings not towing the line. The only positives from this is Josh getting what he deserves and the mental image of Jim Bob and Mechelle sweating the aquanet off their heads watching their house of hate filled cards crumble before them. They’re getting everything they deserve. They abused their children and look what happened. 
 

I’m disgusted by Anna and I really don’t like her yet I also have sympathy for her. The Duggar girls were lucky in that they found partners who helped them navigate and outside world and show them it was ok to break away but doesn’t have that; not from her parents, friends, certainly not her sex pest husband — and lord knows people who try are looked at as the evil. She will never turn away. Ever. Josh could sit her down and say “Anna, I did this. All of it. Everything they said I did. I did it.  Not only did I do it, I enjoyed, and if given the chance I would do it again” she would believe he was being forced to say that. She would be one of those women who would side with her husband over her children.

[Cinnabon]

4 hours ago, laurakaye said:

Great post - this is the part where I struggle with regards to Anna and her brainwashing from birth...I don't see how she could leave even if she had the capacity to want to leave.  She has seven children - unless someone takes in all of them, she's stuck in a situation where, if she does see the light and tries to take steps to leave Josh, she's probably terrified that she would lose financial support from her father in law.  Now I would like to think that JB wouldn't be a big enough monster to allow seven kids to live on the street but I also don't think he's above making Anna believe that his support of her and Josh's kids is conditional on her towing the Jim Blob party line.  I am trying to imagine a life where my parents, my in-laws and my husband have trapped me into being unable to have an independent thought, and then left me to raise a posse of children on my own while telling me that my husband's sins are my fault.  Because even if she is thinking of leaving this cluster of a family, where can she possibly go unless one of her siblings has room and the money to support an additional 8 people?  I am both furious with her and incredibly sad for her.  I want someone to shake some sense into her but then also give her some means to escape this mess.  

She has one very wealthy sister.

[Tuxcat]

I went back and listened to Anna's interview after the second round of scandals broke - Ashley Madison/infidelity. I have a slightly different view now.

I still believe that Anna is in a place of semi- denial regarding the CSAM. Since Josh is still saying he is innocent, she has no choice but to believe him really. Through her lens he had been honest with her about his past scandals (after the stories broke!). So she probably believes that he is still being honest in this case too. I am sure that is what he tells her -"I confessed my past to you, why would I lie about this?"

She said she viewed herself as a demonstrable extension of Gods' love. She felt compelled to love (and forgive) Joshua as God would. "Even when others would not." 

If that's the case, she will never see her role as anything other than being the chosen one - by God - to love and be by Josh's side. She will walk with him through his trials and also this supposed persecution. And in her mind it is very likely that Josh was "sent to prison" in order to minister.

All the other Duggar's know the truth. But Anna has essentially cemented her position - as scandal after scandal after scandal has given her no choice but to believe this was all part of the divine plan. She has not shown tears. Not when her husband was on trial, not when the descriptions of CSAM were discussed, not when Josh was sentenced to 12.5 years in prison. No tears. I'm not sure this is pure denial - but rather - its now become pure determination to do what she believes God wants her to do.

[ginger90]

In prison he doesn’t have to participate in the program. Once released, his conditions are not for an inmate anymore, big difference.

[emmawoodhouse]

4 hours ago, quarks said:

The mandatory participation in a sex offender treatment program is listed on the third page of the minute order regarding the sentencing and the conditions of his release, right under the bit forbidding Josh to use any marijuana. Duggardata and Reddit have copies up.

Here's the minute order for review.

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/59871253/158/united-states-v-duggar/

[Notabug]

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

She has one very wealthy sister.

Yes, but that sister is divorced and remarried and lives a very secular life.  Even if Anna wanted to leave Smuggar, I'm not sure she'd be able to adjust to being around her sister so much and especially having to be beholden to her for supporting them.

Then, again, JRod et famille had no problems traveling down south and using Anna's sister's vacation home-while the sister wasn't there.  Swam in her pool fully clothed and everything.

[GeeGolly]

I look at Anna like a parent or spouse who wants to believe their child or spouse has quit drinking/drugging, when clearly they haven't. Or a spouse who wants to believe their spouse isn't cheating while they're ignoring subtle red flags. Or a battered partner who really believes this time it will be different.

I think most folks are masters of making excuses, qualifying things and/or ignoring the outright truth when it works for us, even if it only works in the short term. It could be at our jobs, with our weight or health, with finances and the list goes on. 

Josh has given her all the ammo she needs to think he was wrongly convicted, so its very easy for her to believe what she wants to believe.

[SusanM]

10 minutes ago, Notabug said:

  Even if Anna wanted to leave Smuggar, I'm not sure she'd be able to adjust to being around her sister so much and especially having to be beholden to her for supporting them.

I get this,  Nobody wants to be the poor relation and even if we all believe that JB is supporting Anna and her children and always has it's likely she's been fooling herself all along that Josh is truly a 'diligent provider' - and of course as long as she remains in Duggar land she probably does still feel like she's part of fundie royalty.

That said it's is good to hear that she does have at least one relative in a position to give her a helping hand financially if she ever does wake up and smell the coffee and leave.

[ozziemom]

4 hours ago, Zella said:

I agree 100% with everything you say about Anna not identifying as an independent woman. Did want to note that the raid was actually nearly three years ago (November 2019) and his arrest was actually over a year ago (April 2021). Which just further points to how much she doesn't want to branch out beyond what she's doing. She's had quite a bit of time to think about this, and she apparently hasn't. 

Actually since she had another baby with FF she clearly thought her life was not going to be disrupted by the raid. She believed whatever story FF and Boob told her about the case and it seems she is still thinks FF is innocent. She’s going nowhere.

[Tikichick]

3 hours ago, Zella said:

I agree 100% with everything you say about Anna not identifying as an independent woman. Did want to note that the raid was actually nearly three years ago (November 2019) and his arrest was actually over a year ago (April 2021). Which just further points to how much she doesn't want to branch out beyond what she's doing. She's had quite a bit of time to think about this, and she apparently hasn't. 

Whenever I consider Anna I always wind up wondering if she in fact simply does not have the capacity to think beyond the box she's always lived in, the boundaries she's always known?  I'm not saying that there's anything lacking in her actual intelligence, as far as I know she has the capacity to function quite normally and can learn, etc.

Matter of fact I remember back to the episodes where they were shown living away from the family outside of DC and thinking she was making a nice start teaching their first couple of kids the very basics like most parents do with very young kids -- ABCs, numbers, colors, "cooking" with mom or dad, making art projects, etc.  Her approach to the kids, her enthusiasm, her organization, etc. all stood above and beyond what seemed normal at the TTH.   I had hopes that even in the stunted environment it would still be a notch above TTH standards.   (I'll take any sliver of hope and light any of these kids get for education and knowledge.)

As far as stepping back to take a critical look at what she's been taught her whole life and actually questioning anything as possibly being wrong, misguided, harmful, exploitative, no I don't think Anna ever considers there's any possibility whatsoever.  I think that is non existent for her, a total blindspot.  She's so indoctrinated down to her core she cannot conceive for one moment her life isn't built on the bedrock she's certain she sees and feels beneath her feet.   

The serious disservice her parents did her is just a terrifying reminder of the damage this cult has and is doing to all these young kids hurtling towards adulthood at warp speed, completely unaware, completely unprepared, completely unable to fend for themselves to the point they are oblivious for the need to do so.  Sadly I don't see any likelihood of Anna opening her eyes to the dangers until the situation her children are in is very dire.

[lovesnark]

5 hours ago, Zella said:

The mandatory participation is a condition for his post-release life, alongside the no porn, no internet, no weed, and supervision around children. It is not about what he has to do in prison. In prison, he can avoid sex offender treatment programs all he wants. But once he is out, if he wants to be out, he has to attend. 

Yep. It's like drug treatment post release. Mandatory intensive out patient treatment is standard when someone with a history of addiction/drug related crime is released. 

Does anyone here know what happens if FF doesn't comply with his post release requirements ? Federal prison does not have standard parole like other prisons where if you violate, you get sent back to do the rest of your sentence. He was ordered to be supervised for 20 years after he gets out, but does that mean he would get more time added for non compliance since he will have already done his time? I don't know how the federal system works.

[Ljohnson1987]

So glad that  someone in the family is finally getting time for their wrong doings. I think more people than Josh have done illegal things, but this is the first domino to fall. 

[GeeGolly]

Beyond professionally, I tell you what, I would so struggle if someone sentenced me to 20 years without internet. I'd be back in the pokey in no time.

[Lady Whistleup]

This discussion about Anna reminds me of how in the 1950s, some women were very content to simply stay at home, take care of the kids, and join fellow housewives for luncheons. They lived fairly content lives. And some women were completely stifled by that sort of life, and forged their own paths -- went back to school, got jobs, became movers and shakers. Other women had no choice -- their husbands were unfaithful, gambleholics, or abusive. And they had to pick up the pieces and start all over again, young kids in tow.

I feel like Anna is definitely in that first group. She is very good at what she does in terms of home-making -- her kids are always clean, fairly fashionably dressed, and seem well-mannered. But she's simply not capable of anything more.

[JustRosie]

Does anyone remember how many years Josh was facing when he was offered the plea deal? Was it less than the sentence he just received?

[emmawoodhouse]

4 minutes ago, Namaste said:

Does anyone remember how many years Josh was facing when he was offered the plea deal? Was it less than the sentence he just received?

We never knew for sure. The number bandied about was 10 years, but that came from tabloids and other equally unreliable sources (WOACB). 

[JustRosie]

5 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

We never knew for sure. The number bandied about was 10 years, but that came from tabloids and other equally unreliable sources (WOACB). 

Thank you!

[lovesnark]

26 minutes ago, Ljohnson1987 said:

So glad that  someone in the family is finally getting time for their wrong doings. I think more people than Josh have done illegal things, but this is the first domino to fall. 

I'd love to see the IRS start digging into Boob's financial dealings. I'm sure he's done everything he can to pay as little tax as possible, and I don't believe he's smart enough to have covered it up very well.

[emmawoodhouse]

3 minutes ago, lovesnark said:

I'd love to see the IRS start digging into Boob's financial dealings. I'm sure he's done everything he can to pay as little tax as possible, and I don't believe he's smart enough to have covered it up very well.

With Travis Story as his attorney, I expect there to be mistakes made. 

[lovesnark]

Quote

Supervised release provides a period of restricted freedom for recently released prisoners (often between one and five years). A federal judge will set the supervised release term (duration) and conditions at the time of sentencing. Although not mandatory for most crimes, judges impose supervised release in approximately 75% of cases.

During supervised release, the defendant must abide by the conditions of release and be supervised by a probation officer. A former prisoner who violates the conditions of supervised release may be sent back to prison, potentially to remain there until the end of the supervised release term. The judge retains jurisdiction over a defendant's supervised release and will make decisions regarding early termination (for good behavior) or modification or revocation (for violations).

I found this about federal supervised release. If FF violates the terms, he could potentially be sent back to prison to serve out the remainder of time he was supposed to be supervised.

[Future Cat Lady]

1 hour ago, SusanM said:

That said it's is good to hear that she does have at least one relative in a position to give her a helping hand financially if she ever does wake up and smell the coffee and leave.

First of all, it's the sister's husband who has money. Second, we have no idea if they will be willing to help her. Anna has seven kids, that's a lot to take on.

[ginger90]

58 minutes ago, lovesnark said:

Does anyone here know what happens if FF doesn't comply with his post release requirements ? Federal prison does not have standard parole like other prisons where if you violate, you get sent back to do the rest of your sentence. He was ordered to be supervised for 20 years after he gets out, but does that mean he would get more time added for non compliance since he will have already done his time? I don't know how the federal system works.

Basically a judge could decide to place more severe conditions on release, extend the period of supervised release, or can revoke the release and order a new federal prison sentence.

Start at page 22:

https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/RL31653.pdf

[Lukeysboat]

I feel the worst for Mackynzie. She’s almost a teen and now likely going to have even more of a burden than ever in caring for her six younger siblings. And more awareness of what her dad has done. 

Anna better pray that her kids are not rebellious teenagers or kids with mental or physical health troubles, as she’s got a long haul ahead of her. 

[Zella]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

Beyond professionally, I tell you what, I would so struggle if someone sentenced me to 20 years without internet. I'd be back in the pokey in no time.

Same. When I have been without internet for a week, I go stir crazy from not being able to fact check trivia. LOL

1 hour ago, lovesnark said:

Yep. It's like drug treatment post release. Mandatory intensive out patient treatment is standard when someone with a history of addiction/drug related crime is released. 

Does anyone here know what happens if FF doesn't comply with his post release requirements ? Federal prison does not have standard parole like other prisons where if you violate, you get sent back to do the rest of your sentence. He was ordered to be supervised for 20 years after he gets out, but does that mean he would get more time added for non compliance since he will have already done his time? I don't know how the federal system works.

I've also wondered about this and also how long before he is sent to a federal prison. My understanding is it could be a few months. But I don't know the average wait time or if we would find out which prison he is being sent to beforehand or only after he is transferred. 

Edited May 27, 2022 by Zella

[lovesnark]

11 minutes ago, Zella said:

Same. When I have been without internet for a week, I go stir crazy from not being able to fact check trivia. LOL

I've also wondered about this and also how long before he is sent to a federal prison. My understanding is it could be a few months. But I don't know the average wait time or if we would find out which prison he is being sent to beforehand or only after he is transferred. 

The judge recommended Seagoville, but it's ultimately up to the BOP and when a bed becomes available and when they have other prisoners to move. They usually try to coordinate with other jails so they can move more at once instead of having to make several trips. Moving prisoners is done under really tight security and the guards involved don't even know about it until the day the move is going to happen. It's done that way to avoid the bus being hijacked enroute in an attempt to allow prisoners to escape. Once he's been transferred, he will show up on the prison roster.

[Zella]

1 minute ago, lovesnark said:

Moving prisoners is done under really tight security and the guards involved don't even know about it until the day the move is going to happen. It's done that way to avoid the bus being hijacked enroute in an attempt to allow prisoners to escape.

That makes a lot of sense! Nobody wants a Kansas City Massacre repeat. 

[mythoughtis]

When Michelle had 7 children and a husband and homeschooling, she was so busy and overworked, she had meltdowns in the laundry  room.  Anna has 7 children and no available husband and no money of her own.   I’m not sure she has time to consider any options beyond getting up, being a mom, homemaker, teacher and daughter in law  she will come up for air sometime and I do expect her to make changes- but what those are won’t be apparent for a few years.  

[emmawoodhouse]

3 minutes ago, lovesnark said:

 Once he's been transferred, he will show up on the prison roster.

Will the general public have access to the prison roster? Or even know where he is sent?

[coconspirator]

8 hours ago, madpsych78 said:

Ugh, I just had a thought that if Anna wanted to leave, Boob would only allow her to leave if she signed her parental rights over to him and Michelle.

Jim Bob is some local yokel from Arkansas; he's not a mob boss. There's no way he'd be able to "force" Anna to do anything. If she decides to take the kids and leave (unlikely) he will have no say in it, one way or the other.

[Zella]

12 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Will the general public have access to the prison roster? Or even know where he is sent?

I bet we can check periodically here.

https://www.bop.gov/mobile/find_inmate/byname.jsp

I get VINE updates for a former coworker who is building time for murder, but he is in a state prison. I am not sure that system works for federal prisoner updates. 

Edited May 27, 2022 by Zella

[lovesnark]

36 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Will the general public have access to the prison roster? Or even know where he is sent?

Yes. We won't know when or where he's transferred, but once he's in the federal prison system, he will show up in the prison locator. Here's the link to the inmate locator.

https://www.bop.gov/inmateloc//

[sixlets]

36 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Will the general public have access to the prison roster? Or even know where he is sent?

Yes, he will show up when the transfer has been completed.  You can search for any inmate with this link:  https://www.bop.gov/inmateloc/.  The feds don't give as much info as some states.  There are a few that give a ton of details, including graphic descriptions of their crimes.  As of now, Josh doesn't appear when searching the BOP link.    

I think I've mentioned this before, but check out Jessica Kent on YT.  While she did not have federal charges, she did serve multiple sentences in Arkansas.  She did a video on what Josh could expect going through the federal system and how he would do time in jail.  She's very blunt with colorful language, so I wouldn't watch her videos around kids.  But, she knows what she's talking about (her charges were drugs and gun possession; nothing related to children).

[babyhouseman]

5 hours ago, Westiepeach said:

FIFY.  Michelle never raised her own children. There is no way she would raise the M kids.

Yeah, I don't think they would be good with Lolli and Pops(M and JB's grandparent names). Lolli just thinks of them as photo ops. 

[emmawoodhouse]

7 minutes ago, babyhouseman said:

Yeah, I don't think they would be good with Lolli and Pops(M and JB's grandparent names). Lolli just thinks of them as photo ops. 

Worse than that, the grandkids are just numbers rapidly accumulating to them. 

[Quilt Fairy]

I've been reading about Seagoville.  It sounds like the very definition of "Club Fed".  A college campus atmosphere with lots of trees and flower beds.  

[emmawoodhouse]

8 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I've been reading about Seagoville.  It sounds like the very definition of "Club Fed".  A college campus atmosphere with lots of trees and flower beds.  

The inmates have to work, even at Club Fed. Maybe Smuggar will take up gardening. 😂

[lovesnark]

38 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

The inmates have to work, even at Club Fed. Maybe Smuggar will take up gardening. 😂

Even though it's wimmins work, I bet he'll try to work in the kitchen. Aside from commissary, it's the best way to get extra food. Or, I can totally see him asking if he could get paid for leading prayer meetings or something similar. Sorry FF. The prison has it's own chaplain and they don't need any of your fundie help. Maybe he could empty the garbage and put chairs away after services or something.

Even though it looks like a nice campus, it's still prison. He'll be in a dorm setting with a bunch of other dudes who have lived real lives, not the coddled, golden boy life he's lived. He's going to have guys stealing his commissary, his toiletries, his towels, pretty much everything that's not nailed down. When it happens and he whines to the guards, they're going to laugh at him and tell him to be more careful. So far, he's had a private room in the county jail for his protection. Prison is a whole 'nother ballgame. His arrogant attitude and believing he's better than everyone else is going to make his life there quite difficult.

[madpsych78]

The other FCI that the judge recommended was in Texarkana, correct? If so, that's not in Arkansas. Texarkana is in Texas, although at the border so closer to their home than Seagoville.

[GeeGolly]

I can picture FF the first night in the dorms. He'll be all laid back and cool, when inside he's all excited when he shares how awesome his bedroom at home was because it had a slide into the playroom. 😎👶🏽

He's gonna fit right in. 🤣

Edited May 28, 2022 by GeeGolly

[YupItsMe]

9 hours ago, SusanM said:

I wonder if she really, deep down, does believe he's innocent.  Maybe she does.  I think though what she is in denial over is exactly what it is that he did.  I think she figuratively sticks her fingers in her ears and goes "la la la I can't hear you" whenever anyone tries to tell her exactly what he has been convicted of.  

I don’t think she’s anywhere near ready to admit, even to herself, that he might not be innocent. If she does that then she also has to admit that their whole marriage has been a lie. I can’t imagine how that would feel. 

[emmawoodhouse]

37 minutes ago, YupItsMe said:

I don’t think she’s anywhere near ready to admit, even to herself, that he might not be innocent. If she does that then she also has to admit that their whole marriage has been a lie. I can’t imagine how that would feel. 

That's why she keeps herself in a,state of denial. Admitting the truth would be a betrayal of everything she has been taught and believes.

[Spazamanaz]

5 hours ago, babyhouseman said:

Yeah, I don't think they would be good with Lolli and Pops(M and JB's grandparent names). Lolli just thinks of them as photo ops. 

I hate the nickname Lolli. Is there any reason why she is called Lolli? Is it short form for anything? Lolli and Pops. How about Dumb and Dumber.

[emmawoodhouse]

16 minutes ago, Spazamanaz said:

I hate the nickname Lolli. Is there any reason why she is called Lolli? Is it short form for anything? Lolli and Pops. How about Dumb and Dumber.

Meech probably made it up, much like Jill Rod calling herself Mimi. 

Edited May 28, 2022 by emmawoodhouse

[Zella]

I think it's just her attempt to get around being called grandma. 

[CandyXmasTree]

4 hours ago, Spazamanaz said:

I hate the nickname Lolli. Is there any reason why she is called Lolli? Is it short form for anything? Lolli and Pops. How about Dumb and Dumber.

Because she thinks that she is as sweet as sugar. But we know the truth.